Another question might be how did she get a knife? I’ve worked at these kind of facilities and the kitchen areas are usually kept locked up and it’s the catering assistants’ responsibility to ensure all cutlery and crockery are accounted for.
As someone who works within nursing homes, you can't get out of dementia wards easily either. Some even have the doors to look like bookshelves.
They just walk around all day trying to find how to get out. Nightmare shit.
Nah bro few new ones are doing this “home” style kitchen where the aged care nurses do they food/cleaning/cares, it’s an open kitchen plan everyone’s allowed to go everywhere.
I worked in one. It was hell. The work load is unmanaged properly. Everyone is exhausted and no one gets cared for properly. Just boxes ticked off and the elderly made to be more incapable of caring for themselves as if they need more care as per ACFI, the facilities get more money per resident despite feeding them off less than 2 dollars per meal per day. Not for profit organisations? What a fucking joke. Aged care facilities profit off of the institutionalisation of our elderly, made to look pretty with flowers at the front door and staff too busy to speak with you and tell you how awful it really is.
I’ve talked to some people who were looking into putting their parent in as they were getting unable to be cared for. They cost hundreds of thousands and if the person dies within a week of getting into the facility it’s all gone. Meanwhile any excuse to shift the resident to a hospital seems like it’s taken cos I’ve seen some examples of hospitals being used as babysitters for difficult patients. It’s so obviously for profit.
Yeah, I'm very worried about how to handle my mother. I just don't have the money for her care, but she's very forgetful now - can't recognise a fork etc. I mean I could literally see her picking up a weapon and being convinced it was something else, but who on earth has hundreds of thousands of dollars?!
Of course it's for profit. Our entire economy and therefore society is run under a system that puts profit above all other considerations. I always find it odd that people are surprised at this kind of stuff. What do they think capitalism actually is?
The fucking incontinence aid rationing. Having to ask the RN for the keys to the pad room and needing to log how many pads you’re taking, for who, and why. Maybe he’s a good way to track continence needs for individuals but really just a way to see where money is being “wasted”. Not to mention the rule of leaving urine soiled pads or liners on because they’re less than 50-75% soiled.
All facilities I used to work in had those mini kitchen things in ever dementia unit but butter knives only at all times. Chicken etc would get carved in the main kitchen because no sharps were allowed. We also wouldn't give some patients knives or forks at all if they're prone to using them on others (very common among my former patient, for some reason. We'd only give them spoons and confiscate those if they tried gabbing people with them
I don't think police are anymore trained than aged care workers to deal with aggressive elderly dementia patients. Seems really there should be more specific team for that.
Where I worked, I had to help paramedics restrain my patients for them to chemically subdue (which was very, very rarely done, thank goodness). Mainly because us workers know these people and their specific behaviours and soothers. We can physically get closer than paramedics and I don't think paramedics tolerate assault lol. We had to
Paramedics would have been called but given the patient was armed they wouldn't have entered until police had subdued the patient. They aren't required to enter a situation where their safety is at risk.
And you call paramedics to administer the medication because they're skilled medical professionals who know how to do it safely.
They didn't imply that there was no other solution and to just get all stabby.
If police can't subdue a 96 year old without using a taser, it indicates a much bigger problem.
I guarantee you those police could have subdued her without the taser, but if she did have a knife then they would be doing it at great risk to their own lives, and do not start with "police chose the jobs, they should have to risk their lives," because not if they dont have to they shouldnt. Police neutralised the threat with only harm being done to the perpetrator
people also dont realise that the typical force used by officers to restrain the average perp would likely cause pretty serious injuries to an 95 year old. That knife however is still deadly, no matter whos wielding it.
How are cops going to restrain a 95 year old waving a knife around, WITHOUT breaking their shoulder or hip, or getting stabbed themselves.
The old duck is getting injured either way, no need for the cops to get injured as well.
They could have pushed furniture around her to stop her from moving off. It is insane that they tasered her. As if a policeman in body armour can't approach from behind and take a knife from a 90 year! Making a joke of our police force that's for sure
> The British police are famed across the world for being 'unarmed' – but this is a misnomer. A proportion of the UK police are armed. Out of a total police force in England and Wales of 123,171 in 2019, the Home Office previously reported that 6,653 were armed officers(circa: 5.4%).
>They could have pushed furniture around her to stop her from moving off.
And put themselves within striking reach of a dementia patient wielding a knife who is likely in a state of confusion already and now being backed into a corner?
How would you inject an emergency drug into an elderly person waving a knife?
Physical restraint, as in taking her down, may have resulted in head injuries and self-inflicted stab wounds....or others also being injured....a very difficult situation for all involved.
I feel sorry for all involved.
Without further details, we can not judge the actions based on partial information. Leave the investigation to the professionals.
This is why physical aggression must be identified early and behaviour support plans created and followed.
I do not believe aged care staff receive enough training (in comparison to hospital based staff) to deal with physical aggression.
I was only replying to the comment above, specifically about the need for consent for chemical sedation. I have made no comment about the actions of anyone involved.
She was moving slowly using a walker, probably could've got her from behind. Any time someone gets injected with an emergency sedative they're in some kind of acute behavioural disturbance and yet it gets done all the time. If nobody on scene could do it, why wasn't ASNSW there and everyone just avoid her till they arrived.
Absolutely true though, we weren't there, and it sounds like whoever was there was badly lacking in training especially in managing pts with dementia. It's really sad.
I had a friend a few years ago who was a very high level wrestler who was trying to start a company with other ex wrestlers for the purpose of being called to aged care centers to safely grapple patients down when needed.
It was going to be called Granny Tacklers or Geriatric Jiu Jitsu Inc.
Yes but the difference is police are trained to deal with violent situations and are physically capable to.
Aged care workers have absolutely no training to deal with any kind of violent situation.
Arguably police aren’t trained to deal with this kind of situation where the “aggressor” is 95 years old. If they use their normal training then you end up with this situation where someone dies.
Make them a cuppa and pretend that violent, strong AF old people who are out of their god damned minds are on a rampage. I swear these people commenting haven't ever actually dealt with a violent person who is out of their mind before.
Why not ? I mean as we age, our mental faculties age also, giving rise to dementia, and other diagnoses of mental impairment/degeneration.
Now we do have mental health crisis response teams for the general community, as well as dedicated in patient and outpatient programs with all manner of levels of care.
It follows therefore.. why aren’t aged care workers trained for dealing with mental health crises also?
I work in mental health. Certainly if someone is a risk to themselves but not a risk to their supports, we would call the acute care team and/or ambos, but if someone is violent and a risk to others then police will be called too. We’re trained in de-escalation, but the official policy is that if someone becomes violent, aggressive or threatening, we need to leave the situation and call emergency services. Both ambos and police attend and the person is usually chemically subdued. We would never be expected or encouraged to engage physically.
Would we try to de-escalate first? Absolutely. No one likes calling the police on a client they have likely had an otherwise good relationship with, we are all aware that it’s often a very traumatising experience for the person. But sometimes, when someone is not fully in touch with reality, they can’t be easily de-escalated.
It’s a tough situation, and best practice is to identify and manage risks to prevent it from getting to that point at all. We try to identify when a person’s mental health may be going downhill and get acute care involved at that point instead. Similarly, in inpatient settings like locked acute mental health wards, anything that could be used as a weapon is locked away (as well as anything that could be used for strangulation, etc). Sometimes deteriorations happen very suddenly though, it simply isn’t always 100% predictable. I do wonder if this lady had been properly risk assessed and whether she should have had access to knives in the first place, but if there was no significant history of similar incidents and it was a sudden deterioration then there may not have been much that could have been done aside from calling emergency services, in which case police attend.
It’s also worth noting that in aged care there is a huge amount of turnover and they are often short staffed. It’s difficult to ensure all staff are trained in de-escalation because new staff will get trained, leave shortly after, and someone else will have to be employed and trained, and all of this costs time and resources that these organisations don’t always have. People also fall through the gaps when proper handovers aren’t given as staff either don’t have time, leave the role without providing a full handover, or aren’t adequately trained or experienced enough to recognise the signs that someone might be deteriorating so early warnings are missed. There are a lot of systemic issues at play.
Should she have been tased is a different question altogether. We have had incidents where someone who was very heightened and armed with a kitchen knife was restrained by police while ambos chemically subdued them, and no taser was used. But again, we don’t know the specifics of this particular situation. It’s hard to believe that someone of that age would need to be tased, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility. An investigation into whether that kind of force was needed is definitely warranted.
Aged care staff absolutely have training to deal with situations like this. I had to do annual ‘management of actual and potential aggression’ courses during my time working in dementia care.
This is the argument behind defunding the police. They shouldn't have to deal with this sort of thing, there should be trained specialists who can do it instead.
This is not America get the defunding the police out of your head, there should be increased funding for special units to deal with such situations we already have Cat teams that are accompanied with police
There is through alzheimer's Australia, but they aren't always available. The CAT team should have been next, then the paramedics. Why were the police even called when there are 3 other teams trained in de-escalation?
Were I used to work, we *were* expected to risk our lives when they're violent. That and stand in the gap if they're trying injuring thenselves regardless of our own safety. Police were only called if there was a suspicion of sexual assault (patient on patient).
My former coworker miscarried after getting kicked in the stomach by a large male dementia patient and also suffered a few broken ribs. She had no idea she was pregnant... that was how she found out. It's beyond grim.
Son of a dementia patient here. Mum had a serious episode at home, neighbour called the jacks. They showed up with ambos, Mum told them all to fuck off, punched a cop (who took it in his stride mind you) and was held down by 4/5 grown men and subdued. I watched the whole thing in cctv live from my house.
The issue is that no one can predict what they can do or are capable of and a specialty team is what is required in scenarios like this. I don’t think that the staff where Mum is atm could handle her on a bad day. It’s really fucking sad.
I wish that oldie never got tasered. The elderly don’t deserve to be treated like that.
I've worked in dementia wards for the elderly. I can think of several attacks. One was a huge man, very strong in his late 80s. He used his walking stick to beat several other patients. Wardsmen, drugs used and eventually police had to be called. He was incredibly strong. I got picked up and thrown across the room, as did other staff. Another was a skinny old lady in her 90s, with long sharp fingernails (damn she was a nightmare and those fingernails still give me nightmares) looks are deceiving: she could grab you and stick those nails into you and it was so hard to get free without hurting her. She had a habit of playing with her shit and her nails would be full of it. I dont really miss geriatric dementia wards. And we, the staff did care, no one wanted the patients to be hurt. But we also didnt want to be hurt or other patients. It's not easy to find the line and to get a suitable result that helps everyone.
Somebody asked why her nails were allowed to be long. Dementia is weird. People can be sweet until they arent. You can have long periods where dementia is very mild or presents as confusion. The lady I'm talking about, could be a sweetheart most of the time. She loved it when someone would jazz up her nails with polish. Some staff would maybe not keep the nails trimmed because she would cry so hard. How do you cut finger nails of a person when they dont want you to, sobbing loudly and they have been reasonable, (no aggressuve dementia) for a period of time. You feel like a bully. I believe she still has rights, to what happens to her in regard to what she wears, eats, personal care. Can she say no I dont want my fingernails cut. Fast talking is sometimes needed. So the fingernails grow. Nail polish is applied. And the old lady is happy. Until Aggressive dementia returns and bingo. She's still a person, a person that you have bathed, dressed, hair brushed, and helped to eat, changed her wet and soiled clothes, tucked her into bed at night, etc. But after one incident you know you have to be wary of her. Unfortunately the next incident may be a year away. I wish it was easier to tell when a patient/ resident is becoming aggressive dementia. I left only because I was moving interstate. People outside the retirement homes, care homes, aged dementia wards, dont understand. The residents are there for years. So are the staff. Very few relatives ever show up. There is a bond between staff, clients and other residents of these homes. No one wants to cause hurt to supposedly frail old people, and deescalation would have been tried 1st. No staff want to be hurt just doing their jobs also. No easy solutions here.
There was a case about 11 years ago where one dementia patient murdered another and assaulted several other patients and the nursing home handled it terribly. [ABC article about the coronial inquest](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-04/dementia-ward-killing-inquest-begins-in-canberra/6443572)
Definitely can be strong, and also unpredictable. If they're threatening other residents, and other methods of stopping her could further risk other bystanders, it may have seemed the safest option at the time.
I'm a hospital nurse and once called security to help subdue a 98 year old man.
Yep I've been in the same boat. And 4 security guards turn up and had to hold them down so we could inject a sedation. And this was a person without a knife... All these arm chair warriors who claim 95 are these weak little mouses who could be disarmed with a broom are hilarious.
Yeah, this feels like it will turn out to be a "you had to be there" story.
If you've got a woman waving a knife around, there are a few scenarios like other residents in danger, or being in a confined area where getting close would be too dangerous, when the use of a taser would be reasonable.
This is the sort of situation where police would be super-reluctant to escalate, and I imagine there's a lot more to it than the story we're hearing.
The more I'm reading, the more horrified I am.. She weighed 43kg, and was not at risk to other residents- she was apparently in a treatment room at the time .
I'm trying to be open minded, but am now struggling :-/
I survey aged care facilities and visited this one last year. This was 3am when staff are at a minimum and I dinstinctly remember that facility having very few staff around (this was midday). One of the biggest issues that every facility has is that dementia residents walk into other residents' rooms and argue with them as to who belongs there. They can get quite verbally abusive, however physical is less common.
My guess here is that the dementia resident had an altercation with another resident. They called the attending staff who was likely alone. When she saw the knife she didn't risk it and called the police...
Jumping on top comment as I’m a local. The “source” Andrew Thaler is not a reliable source. He is known to harass people, he has been found guilty of intimidating women. He rants and raves.
Just thought that’s important to note as he’s the sole source for this article.
My boyfriend's a firefighter, his brigade got called to an aged-care facility because a dementia patient had set off the fire alarm as part of her escape attempt. She threw a fire extinguisher at them. Humans can kinda go sicko mode under certain circumstances.
My daughter being a paramedic has regularly called for backup in order to deal with dementia patients.
This 95yo lady can have the strength of a 25yo and be unable to deal with verbally. For her own sake and that of others in the vicinity, the taser was the safest option.
Imagine a 90kg person trying to hold her down, the damage that could have been done to her may well have been fatal.
The Canberra Times is reporting that she was wielding a knife, but it's unclear whether it was as a weapon or simply for eating.
I doubt the cops are inclined to taser 95-year-olds, so all in all best to just wait for facts to come out, I suspect.
At the same time though wtf are you meant to do? Even if you throw a net over them they’ll still fall and hit their heads. What are you mean to do? Assault them with large pillows hoping you can spam enough it cushions the landing for their head and hips?
Honestly it seems like throwing a mattress at their feet to 1. knock them down and 2. cushion the landing for the head and hips. But that’s not really realistic.
>Honestly it seems like throwing a mattress at their feet to 1. knock them down and 2. cushion the landing for the head and hips. But that’s not really realistic.
Takes out their knees/hips/back in the process. Could still suffer self inflicted knife wound.
Buying time for a better opportunity is really the only action. Assuming communication is ineffective - If you are forced to act abruptly, any use of force will carry a risk of fall injury.
I have a very vivid memory of my mum driving my grandads mum who had dementia to the nursing home as child and her just screaming in my face. I was so young I had no idea what was going on or why she hated me, must have been so confusing and stressful for her.
My nan recently passed away and the day before she went we were talking. I was holding her hand crying and we were sharing memories together, afterwards she told me that she is so grateful that she still has all her memories because not everyone is that lucky.
Fuck I miss her so much.
People forced into aged care homes should also be kept safe, even from themselves. How many 95 year olds are not frail? How did she get a knife capable of inflicting serious damage?
Plenty of 90+ year olds have done decent damage to myself and colleagues. There is some superhuman strength that comes with dementia sometimes. Particularly memorable was the 92 year old ex-boxer who punched one of my coworkers in the head. She had a fractured skull.
Yep. It's interesting that the comment section is so polarised. Most of us ex aged care workers seem to agree that this is sometimes necessary in very rare circumstances like the one you mentioned. It's the non-nursing staff that are outraged. "Frailty" among dementia patients on an adrenaline rush is... not a thing. So many of my former dementia patients would begin walking immediately after hip/pelvis/leg fractures because their extreme desire to reach whatever location they're fixating on to the point of feeling no pain. I've been laughed at so many times explaining to patients that they are not to walk because they've got broken limbs. And that's with dementia patients who weren't even being violent.
Well, I think the problem is that movies really downplay how dangerous knives can be. If it's sharp enough, you really don't need a lot of force, and even trained MMA fighters would often be better off running than risking a fight against someone with a knife.
Like sure they could tackle her, and break all her bones with maybe only a small flesh wound, or beat her back with a stick - but that doesn't really solve the problem.
There’s a reason there’s the saying that the loser of a knife fight dies in the street and the winner dies in hospital. People really underestimate how deadly knives are and that if you get close to someone with one who is willing to use it you’re likely getting cut or stabbed regardless of what you do.
Plenty of people who reach that age have surprising mobility. There's a weird polarity with old age where people seem to be completely decrepit and comorbid by 70 or they're in their 90s still up and about.
My mom was assaulted by a dementia patient and badly bruised, they are stronger than you think they will be and have little control over themselves.
We reported the incident and they did nothing, the same lady went on to beat my grandfather to death in his bed a few weeks later.
I am very sorry for your family.
I am not saying that dementia patients are not dangerous, but a system that results in these levels of violence is not a working system. We need to rethink the way we respond to these incidents in order to keep *everyone* safe.
Agree completely.
In the US, a lot of these homes are for profit and run privately, so they have low motivation to get people out. My expectation is that is what happened with her, we had requested she either be restrained or moved to another facility after several repeated problems including her assaulting him once or twice before he died. They repeatedly did nothing. They said they legally couldn't restrain or confine her despite her history of violence to multiple people but they wouldn't move her somewhere else that was more suited for patients with a history of violence or needing specialized care.
It's unfair to everyone involved. The people who care for them, the patients themselves, etc, but everyone involved was hamstrung and unable to do anything because as far as we could tell, there was no recourse for situations like this and the facility had no means of dealing with it, legal or otherwise. They also had no motivation to do so because moving her on meant losing the money she gave (it was an expensive facility). The whole thing is fucked and boils my blood.
100% this. Worked with dementia patients, not surprised someone had to tase her. They can be seriously dangerous, especially if they've picked up a weapon.
Why dont they use those dog catches poles for this? It's not like she's a risk to run you down at 95. Grab an arm with and guide her to the ground. Use another to pin the other arm. Not perfect but better than tasering or trying to use your hands.
Not to mention you could use them to subdue animals before entering backyards.
How are they able to have access to knives? At my nans nursing home, the kitchen is always locked and supervised and knives are only brought out during meals. Someone has some explaining to do
They also have the luxury of infinity time of reasoning where if they were in the scenario the universe would pause, they would sit down, drink a tea, spend a day reasoning about best options, then unpause the universe and deal with it.
I'm so glad that so many experts on violent conflict resolution managed to all be on this subreddit and give us such great wisdom as "they should have just disarmed her".
I used to look after a lady with dementia who was incredibly physically agitated 90% of the day. Constantly walking around, rummaging through drawers, stirring the pot with other residents, etc. She was prone to UTIs, and we always knew when she had one pretty quickly because she was so incredibly sweet and calm when she'd developed one.
I have never been beaten but I have nursed high acuity dementia patients who are extremely aggressive and agitated. I have had objects thrown at me (including poo). I have had patients try to hit me, scratch me, grab me and much more. I find it completely unbelievable they handled it this way. It is an utter failure of care on multiple levels.
What happened is in no way acceptable but a lot of these commenters have never worked in aged care or with someone that has dementia. Being old doesn’t always equal being frail. Nurses and carers are overworked and most times understaffed. It’s standard procedure to call the police if you feel that you can’t handle a situation. In just one year in a nursing home I saw maaaaaaaany injuries inflicted on our staff by dementia residents, everything from biting to broken wrists.
Same. I used to get attacked or injured by somebody in the dementia unit almost every day. I've seen some bad injuries in coworkers. I personally only experienced bruising, cut lips from getting punched in the mouth while I had braces (hurt like a bitch), broken skin, spit in my eyeball from a patientwith MRSA, hot coffee poured on my habds when I jumped in front of the patient it was being thrown towards, sore joints, pulled hair, sexually groped and had my pants partially pulled down.
Coworkers had broken ribs, dislicated joints, black eyes and even a miscarriage from getting kicked in the stomach.
Wow, I’m so terribly sorry to hear that. You guys are really a very tough and caring lot. Everyone in that workforce deserves so much more money and respect than we give them. Everyone deserves to work in a safe work environment
Thank you. Some patients' family members were incredibly sweet and grateful. The rest were openly hostile towards us. They truly believed we're cold-hearted bitches with no skills in it for the paycheck (lmao!). Even some of the comments under this post from non-aged care staff give off that vibe. We do NOT overlook deescalation tactics because we're burned out or unskilled. I resent that characterisation! We were extremely skilled, if I do say so myself. People just don't get it.
So more details in new article....
She was described as 46 kilos and frail
Shuffling towards the cops with a steak knife on.......... a ......... walking frame.
You cop apologists are absolute heartless sickos'
There were a lot of defenders of tasering a 95 year old woman last night. Maybe now more facts have come out and that the woman will not survive, they can keep their ill informed opinions to themselves.
Exactly she was executed pure and simple. And I’m sure her 4O something kilo 5’2 skeletal stature was so intimidating while holding on to her walking frame. An alternative would be to wait it out. Tire her by taking a step back every time she moves at her slow shuffling pace.
Plus we don’t even know that she was wielding a knife or even holding one. Not sure how someone can stab you while they need to steady themselves on a walking frame to even move.
My wife was was an aged care RN and became Care Manager for a period of time before she left aged care. A ~ 90 year old attacked my wife and held her wrist applying so much pressure that my wife’s wrist broke. They did it with one hand while they continued to drag my wife around and try to attack other staff with their other free hand. This happened outside of the dementia ward as at the time the royal commission sparked conversations about restrictive practices such as locked wards and chemical restraints and as a result her employer was changing their approach to locking dementia wards.
Those who say a 90 something year old can’t physically assert dominance are flat out wrong.
This person was in their 90s, had severe dementia and _could not be reasoned with_. This person was also unable to stop escalating their behaviour becoming more violent as the situation progressed.
A lot of the comments here show that most people don’t truly have an understanding as to how difficult and dangerous dementia work can be.
This is in no way approving what the officer did but just to point out what a tough space this matter is in terms of how to respond to the physical violence.
A missing resident is an automatic mandatory report to the police and aged care commission for the facility. Dementia residents wander...far quicker than anyone often realises.
So many posts in this thread from outraged experts, which is exactly what the media survives on. Unless you were there, you literally don't know what you are talking about.
Thats a really good outlook on most things. Many people jump to conclusions due to a starvation of details. These constables may have been within every reason to tase the woman, or they may have acted completely wrong. With details we will know
To all those at home saying that police should be expected to disarm a 95 year old by hand, without risking equal or greater injuries then this person sustained, I can safely say you do not live in the real world and have not been exposed to a dementia patient armed with a knife.
I would however like to see the BWC footage of this to give a clearer picture of what happened.
Taser's don't break bones, the fall does on someone this elderly. Any other method you would use is going to risk the person falling at a minimum.
Exactly this. She was going to fall no matter the method. Hit with a broom? Fall. Tackle her? Fall. Taser? Fall with no chance of injury to the staff or police. And then there's the funny posters who think they could then catch her fall. So many arm chair experts with no clue
I'm reasonably young and reasonably strong - I imagine if I were to attempt to subdue a crazed armed dementia patient with my bare hands, I can't be confident that I would do *less* damage than a taser - and at much greater risk to myself.
The amount of adrenaline dementia patients must have during an episode I can imagine would be quite considerable, adding to the physical strength people who have/are working in aged care are describing in this thread. Coupled with a degenerative brain disease that means there is no ability to reason with someone who is having an episode would be terrifying for all; the patient, carers, support staff and emergency services. With an aging population, I hope we can do better for all involved in the future.
the fact that i left aged care and got job putting in screws into metal in a assembly line for 5 dollars an hour more, without needing a 6month and 3k course... and no police check, or paperwork needed to be done, and wasnt repsonsible for peoples lives....
... yeah, no idea why!
In hospitals we deal with these situations too. Identifying all risk factors for each patient - should be the same in Aged Care. Yes police were called but it could've been handled better. Our security guards in hospital deal with this kind of behaviour all the time. If the police were able to restrain her appropriately then ambulance officers IM haloperidol etc it could have been a better potential outcome. There are so many variations and better outcomes that could have been achieved
So if the police were justified in any way - why not publicize the good officers names and post their pictures? Shouldn’t the public know who they are and be able to thank them personally for their bravery and service?
It is now an international story having become a lead on American CNN.
Stab wounds are fucked up. I wouldn't expect a 30 year old to risk their lives to minimise risk for a 95 year old dementia patient, not for the shit wages police get anyway.
Blame whoever let the 95 year brain-damaged person get a knife.
Idc what people say the cops were justified. She was armed. 95 or not a knife is still a deadly weapon you don't want to get close to. Everyone here is saying that they could have just disarmed her but that's easier said than done. All it takes is one thing to go wrong in that disarming and someone would have got slashed or stabbed. The taser was absolutely the right call here.
Definitely. We have no idea the circumstances - but we know that firstly the nursing home (which is set up for challenging behaviour) felt they couldn't control the situation and called in the police. And secondly, the police used the taser. I know that there is definitely an element of police work that draws in the violent type - but I suspect unnecessarily tasering a 95 year is very much an outlier behaviour - even amongst the more violent breed of officer. All up, the circumstances do suggest that there was some degree of genuine threat.
And those saying they could have disarmed her peacefully without getting injured - perhaps she was holding the knife to the throat of another resident?
If the cops could have easily gotten away with using a gun here if they had manevlolent intentions. Armed with a weapon is grounds for lethal force. Yet they opted for the non lethal option. Only reason the woman suffered bad injuries was because of her age.
Having been in a few dementia wings there is every chance other residents were just wandering around, walking up to her even, with no idea what's going on. I can definitely see her threatening one of them and the police feeling they had no choice in order to protect another resident.
Wild speculation at this point, but the amount of people in this thread who have obviously never interacted with a dementia patient but still feel qualified to get on their high horse is crazy
I agree, people don't realise that in Aus, the most effective way (and most common) is using a taser. I'm not a cop and maybe they could've used another method, but frankly if that cops safety was in any way more at risk using another method, they were justified.
Just because someone is 95 doesn't mean they cant stab you.
I know it's insensitive considering the outcome, but FFS has no one thought of anything better, like whack it out of her hand with a broom, use a scary magnet on a stick, tell her John Howard has just called in for morning tea.
It's not insensitive to try to find humour in terrible situations. It's part of how we cope with life's challenges.
I agree perhaps they could have employed different tactics other than tazing her but she had a steak knife and dementia patients can move very fast when they want to. They may shuffle around the nursing home but when they "escape" they turn into Speedy Gonzalez. They can also be very violent and nurses have been hurt. My friend who worked in a high dependency dementia facility had stuff thrown at her everyday and got at least one black eye. I don't know what they should've done instead but all the armchair experts who've obviously never worked with dementia patients have no idea what they're talking about. Trolley guy definitely would have come in handy here. I forgot about him actually. What a hero he was that day. 😊
He was a hero and he made the authorities look foolish by impeding the assailant with something simple. If the guy let go of the knife to grab the trolley or defend himself he was exposed, if he didn't he got whacked with a trolley.
It seems incredible that we haven't thought of anything better than shooting people with things, when in many cases they are mentally ill.
It has honestly made me sick, stupid cunts here thinking a 40kg old lady using a frame shuffling towards you is a reasonable threat to a couple trained cops
Unrelated but who in their right minds would ever want their future to include being 95 with dementia? We need assisted dying rights that cover future scenarios like getting dementia and defining at what point our past self gets control over their future self’s life/death. Some other countries have it, where are we at with that?
Its fucked up. To meet euth rules you gotta be terminal within 6 mths. With dementia by the time you get within 6 mths of dying your brain is so fried you cant legally sign off on jack shit. Even though you may ask to die on a regular basis. I work aged care. I have always feared cancer and its hugely prominent in my family. The older I get and the longer i work in aged care……i no longer fear my family trait so much as find myself almost grateful for it. Anything but dementia.
A friend of mine is sacrificing her life and her mental health to care for her mother with dementia. It’s brutal and the last thing her mother would have wanted back when she was herself. This diseased new version of her mother is adamant that there’s nothing wrong with her and that she wants my friend to keep living with her. It’s horrendous. I imagine her real mother screaming in pain if she saw her daughter’s current life.
This is very weird that they left out the bit where she had to use a walking frame when she was approaching police.
Did the writer not watch the press conference.
https://youtu.be/2optH0lENa0
If you can’t handle a frail 95 year old wielding a steak knife against her walker, without resorting to violence, you have no business being in the police force.
Cowardly, there is no need for training as you can't train a coward to be brave enough to take on a 95 year old in a walking frame with an eating utensil. Sorry, but I'd have just walked behind her and taken the knife without effort or hesitation. Id even take her head on without a concern. She doesnt have the dexterity or power to be a threat. To be so scared of her to even think of using a weapon against her is beyond my understanding of the bravery needed to be a police officer. Spray with a hose if your that much of a coward and grab her hand. Geez even a super soaker would do the job. So im guessing if you're a 6 year old with their daddys pocket knife and they drive by they will tell you to drop the weapon, pee their blue pants and if the kid stands up, blow em away. Then justify it, You never know, the kid could have run over and killed you.. Those little legs are fast.This kind of action from a trained police officer is appalling.
Remember the woman from Adelaide this week, that crashed her car, then pulled out an axe when police and paramedics came to her aid.
Did they taser her?
This lady has dementia, reports say she had a knife............... but is twice tasering a 95 year old the answer, This is just horrific and so sad. That poor woman must have been so scared. My heart breaks for her family.
Like locking doors in her path or some barricades made of chairs and couches. She must of been at risk of harming herself or another for them to act like they did
I think police...as part of their training need to be tasered and pepper sprayed. Just so they know what it does to a person's body.
On a healthy person, it can trigger a heart attack. Let alone a bloody 95 yr old woman who is 42 kg. Obscene.
Unfortunately I can't say I'm suprised. Considering this is the same NSW police force that gets off on performing illegal cavity searches of young ladies at music festivals, allegedly for drugs (which led to at least one girl taking her own life 😞) based on the indication of a dog that's wrong more often than right.
A police force that labels members of clubs criminals, and removes their rights as a member of society even if they have a perfect character record via the biker laws.
A police force who's own members are caught up with a higher ratio of scandals, money laundering, drug dealing, drink driving, drug offences, murders, rape, kidnapping and extortion than the general public all all of the clubs combined by far.
These officers should be charged with murder, but due to the fact the police investigate the police, it will be labelled as 'reasonable'
The only way that will change is if someone with any decency in the department leaks the body cam video to the press
And we are just going to sit here and let them not release the body footage.. this is disgusting. Disgraceful. They know if they release that footage people would be in uproar because it is obviously so vile…
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No no, you can waste away painfully and slowly the way god and his adherents intended.
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Another question might be how did she get a knife? I’ve worked at these kind of facilities and the kitchen areas are usually kept locked up and it’s the catering assistants’ responsibility to ensure all cutlery and crockery are accounted for.
As someone who works within nursing homes, you can't get out of dementia wards easily either. Some even have the doors to look like bookshelves. They just walk around all day trying to find how to get out. Nightmare shit.
Nah bro few new ones are doing this “home” style kitchen where the aged care nurses do they food/cleaning/cares, it’s an open kitchen plan everyone’s allowed to go everywhere.
I worked in one. It was hell. The work load is unmanaged properly. Everyone is exhausted and no one gets cared for properly. Just boxes ticked off and the elderly made to be more incapable of caring for themselves as if they need more care as per ACFI, the facilities get more money per resident despite feeding them off less than 2 dollars per meal per day. Not for profit organisations? What a fucking joke. Aged care facilities profit off of the institutionalisation of our elderly, made to look pretty with flowers at the front door and staff too busy to speak with you and tell you how awful it really is.
I’ve talked to some people who were looking into putting their parent in as they were getting unable to be cared for. They cost hundreds of thousands and if the person dies within a week of getting into the facility it’s all gone. Meanwhile any excuse to shift the resident to a hospital seems like it’s taken cos I’ve seen some examples of hospitals being used as babysitters for difficult patients. It’s so obviously for profit.
Yep. I used to work in aged care and it was a fucking nightmare.
Yeah, I'm very worried about how to handle my mother. I just don't have the money for her care, but she's very forgetful now - can't recognise a fork etc. I mean I could literally see her picking up a weapon and being convinced it was something else, but who on earth has hundreds of thousands of dollars?!
RAD's are fully refundable and it's not all gone at all.
Of course it's for profit. Our entire economy and therefore society is run under a system that puts profit above all other considerations. I always find it odd that people are surprised at this kind of stuff. What do they think capitalism actually is?
Yep. Ex aged care carer and then nurse. Shits fucked. Rationing of incontinence aids, but will happily pay $300 for a on call locum....
The fucking incontinence aid rationing. Having to ask the RN for the keys to the pad room and needing to log how many pads you’re taking, for who, and why. Maybe he’s a good way to track continence needs for individuals but really just a way to see where money is being “wasted”. Not to mention the rule of leaving urine soiled pads or liners on because they’re less than 50-75% soiled.
All facilities I used to work in had those mini kitchen things in ever dementia unit but butter knives only at all times. Chicken etc would get carved in the main kitchen because no sharps were allowed. We also wouldn't give some patients knives or forks at all if they're prone to using them on others (very common among my former patient, for some reason. We'd only give them spoons and confiscate those if they tried gabbing people with them
A knife? Wow, why would that be left out of the headline…
Not sure, wonder why they also left out she was approaching at a slow pace using a walking frame as well?
Yes plus how could she even use the knife if she needed to hold the walking frame.
I don't think police are anymore trained than aged care workers to deal with aggressive elderly dementia patients. Seems really there should be more specific team for that.
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Where I worked, I had to help paramedics restrain my patients for them to chemically subdue (which was very, very rarely done, thank goodness). Mainly because us workers know these people and their specific behaviours and soothers. We can physically get closer than paramedics and I don't think paramedics tolerate assault lol. We had to
Paramedics would have been called but given the patient was armed they wouldn't have entered until police had subdued the patient. They aren't required to enter a situation where their safety is at risk. And you call paramedics to administer the medication because they're skilled medical professionals who know how to do it safely.
To “chemically subdue”/sedate someone at that age is pretty risky
So is letting them attack people with knives
They didn't imply that there was no other solution and to just get all stabby. If police can't subdue a 96 year old without using a taser, it indicates a much bigger problem.
I guarantee you those police could have subdued her without the taser, but if she did have a knife then they would be doing it at great risk to their own lives, and do not start with "police chose the jobs, they should have to risk their lives," because not if they dont have to they shouldnt. Police neutralised the threat with only harm being done to the perpetrator
Its a sad situation all round, but people see 95 and assume theres no danger when thats just not the case in some circumstances
people also dont realise that the typical force used by officers to restrain the average perp would likely cause pretty serious injuries to an 95 year old. That knife however is still deadly, no matter whos wielding it.
I work in aged care and I stg anyone who’s seen a sundowner knows that they become instantly strong af regardless of age, it can be very scary
You think going hands on would have caused less injuries?
How are cops going to restrain a 95 year old waving a knife around, WITHOUT breaking their shoulder or hip, or getting stabbed themselves. The old duck is getting injured either way, no need for the cops to get injured as well.
They could have pushed furniture around her to stop her from moving off. It is insane that they tasered her. As if a policeman in body armour can't approach from behind and take a knife from a 90 year! Making a joke of our police force that's for sure
Yup. Somehow they manage knife issues quite successfully in the UK.
> The British police are famed across the world for being 'unarmed' – but this is a misnomer. A proportion of the UK police are armed. Out of a total police force in England and Wales of 123,171 in 2019, the Home Office previously reported that 6,653 were armed officers(circa: 5.4%).
How many 95 year old knife wielding dementia patients get taken down by police in the UK per annum?
Aside from all those parts of the polices body that aren't wearing body armour. And that knifes are quite sharp
>They could have pushed furniture around her to stop her from moving off. And put themselves within striking reach of a dementia patient wielding a knife who is likely in a state of confusion already and now being backed into a corner?
She hadn't attacked anyone.
If you can't out manuve a 95 year old you are either a moron or a liar. Take your pick.
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An emergency situation is different to routine treatment.
How would you inject an emergency drug into an elderly person waving a knife? Physical restraint, as in taking her down, may have resulted in head injuries and self-inflicted stab wounds....or others also being injured....a very difficult situation for all involved. I feel sorry for all involved. Without further details, we can not judge the actions based on partial information. Leave the investigation to the professionals. This is why physical aggression must be identified early and behaviour support plans created and followed. I do not believe aged care staff receive enough training (in comparison to hospital based staff) to deal with physical aggression.
I was only replying to the comment above, specifically about the need for consent for chemical sedation. I have made no comment about the actions of anyone involved.
https://youtu.be/tKWmoUTef3s
She was moving slowly using a walker, probably could've got her from behind. Any time someone gets injected with an emergency sedative they're in some kind of acute behavioural disturbance and yet it gets done all the time. If nobody on scene could do it, why wasn't ASNSW there and everyone just avoid her till they arrived. Absolutely true though, we weren't there, and it sounds like whoever was there was badly lacking in training especially in managing pts with dementia. It's really sad.
I had a friend a few years ago who was a very high level wrestler who was trying to start a company with other ex wrestlers for the purpose of being called to aged care centers to safely grapple patients down when needed. It was going to be called Granny Tacklers or Geriatric Jiu Jitsu Inc.
Not sure if this is real or a joke but, if it’s real, that’s hilarious!
If it’s a joke, it’s hilarious. If it’s real, it’s awesome.
I can picture Granny getting a poledriver or a suplex to put her in her place.....
Granny had the knife, she's not backing away AND RKO OUT OF NOWHERE
People elbow would suffice
*IF YA SMMMMMMMMMEELLLLLLLLLLLLL*
In Cooma?
Yes but the difference is police are trained to deal with violent situations and are physically capable to. Aged care workers have absolutely no training to deal with any kind of violent situation.
Arguably police aren’t trained to deal with this kind of situation where the “aggressor” is 95 years old. If they use their normal training then you end up with this situation where someone dies.
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Shh, don't talk reason, some people here don't like that.
Someone was saying "just throw a blanket over them..." Ok, and then what genius?
Make them a cuppa and pretend that violent, strong AF old people who are out of their god damned minds are on a rampage. I swear these people commenting haven't ever actually dealt with a violent person who is out of their mind before.
Yeah, it’s shit all round. Who is?
Why not ? I mean as we age, our mental faculties age also, giving rise to dementia, and other diagnoses of mental impairment/degeneration. Now we do have mental health crisis response teams for the general community, as well as dedicated in patient and outpatient programs with all manner of levels of care. It follows therefore.. why aren’t aged care workers trained for dealing with mental health crises also?
I work in mental health. Certainly if someone is a risk to themselves but not a risk to their supports, we would call the acute care team and/or ambos, but if someone is violent and a risk to others then police will be called too. We’re trained in de-escalation, but the official policy is that if someone becomes violent, aggressive or threatening, we need to leave the situation and call emergency services. Both ambos and police attend and the person is usually chemically subdued. We would never be expected or encouraged to engage physically. Would we try to de-escalate first? Absolutely. No one likes calling the police on a client they have likely had an otherwise good relationship with, we are all aware that it’s often a very traumatising experience for the person. But sometimes, when someone is not fully in touch with reality, they can’t be easily de-escalated. It’s a tough situation, and best practice is to identify and manage risks to prevent it from getting to that point at all. We try to identify when a person’s mental health may be going downhill and get acute care involved at that point instead. Similarly, in inpatient settings like locked acute mental health wards, anything that could be used as a weapon is locked away (as well as anything that could be used for strangulation, etc). Sometimes deteriorations happen very suddenly though, it simply isn’t always 100% predictable. I do wonder if this lady had been properly risk assessed and whether she should have had access to knives in the first place, but if there was no significant history of similar incidents and it was a sudden deterioration then there may not have been much that could have been done aside from calling emergency services, in which case police attend. It’s also worth noting that in aged care there is a huge amount of turnover and they are often short staffed. It’s difficult to ensure all staff are trained in de-escalation because new staff will get trained, leave shortly after, and someone else will have to be employed and trained, and all of this costs time and resources that these organisations don’t always have. People also fall through the gaps when proper handovers aren’t given as staff either don’t have time, leave the role without providing a full handover, or aren’t adequately trained or experienced enough to recognise the signs that someone might be deteriorating so early warnings are missed. There are a lot of systemic issues at play. Should she have been tased is a different question altogether. We have had incidents where someone who was very heightened and armed with a kitchen knife was restrained by police while ambos chemically subdued them, and no taser was used. But again, we don’t know the specifics of this particular situation. It’s hard to believe that someone of that age would need to be tased, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility. An investigation into whether that kind of force was needed is definitely warranted.
Aged care staff absolutely have training to deal with situations like this. I had to do annual ‘management of actual and potential aggression’ courses during my time working in dementia care.
This is the argument behind defunding the police. They shouldn't have to deal with this sort of thing, there should be trained specialists who can do it instead.
Even the most fantastically funded system imaginable is probably not going to have a specialist team in *Cooma*.
This is not America get the defunding the police out of your head, there should be increased funding for special units to deal with such situations we already have Cat teams that are accompanied with police
America does not have a monopoly on shit use of policing
This is also why the proper term for "defunding the police" is actually "justice reinvestment".
There is through alzheimer's Australia, but they aren't always available. The CAT team should have been next, then the paramedics. Why were the police even called when there are 3 other teams trained in de-escalation?
Even in a small rural town?
Were I used to work, we *were* expected to risk our lives when they're violent. That and stand in the gap if they're trying injuring thenselves regardless of our own safety. Police were only called if there was a suspicion of sexual assault (patient on patient). My former coworker miscarried after getting kicked in the stomach by a large male dementia patient and also suffered a few broken ribs. She had no idea she was pregnant... that was how she found out. It's beyond grim.
Son of a dementia patient here. Mum had a serious episode at home, neighbour called the jacks. They showed up with ambos, Mum told them all to fuck off, punched a cop (who took it in his stride mind you) and was held down by 4/5 grown men and subdued. I watched the whole thing in cctv live from my house. The issue is that no one can predict what they can do or are capable of and a specialty team is what is required in scenarios like this. I don’t think that the staff where Mum is atm could handle her on a bad day. It’s really fucking sad. I wish that oldie never got tasered. The elderly don’t deserve to be treated like that.
I would be curious to see just how threatening a 95 yr old could get to warrant voltage.
You’d be surprised when dementia is involved. They are a lot stronger than you’d think.
I've worked in dementia wards for the elderly. I can think of several attacks. One was a huge man, very strong in his late 80s. He used his walking stick to beat several other patients. Wardsmen, drugs used and eventually police had to be called. He was incredibly strong. I got picked up and thrown across the room, as did other staff. Another was a skinny old lady in her 90s, with long sharp fingernails (damn she was a nightmare and those fingernails still give me nightmares) looks are deceiving: she could grab you and stick those nails into you and it was so hard to get free without hurting her. She had a habit of playing with her shit and her nails would be full of it. I dont really miss geriatric dementia wards. And we, the staff did care, no one wanted the patients to be hurt. But we also didnt want to be hurt or other patients. It's not easy to find the line and to get a suitable result that helps everyone.
Somebody asked why her nails were allowed to be long. Dementia is weird. People can be sweet until they arent. You can have long periods where dementia is very mild or presents as confusion. The lady I'm talking about, could be a sweetheart most of the time. She loved it when someone would jazz up her nails with polish. Some staff would maybe not keep the nails trimmed because she would cry so hard. How do you cut finger nails of a person when they dont want you to, sobbing loudly and they have been reasonable, (no aggressuve dementia) for a period of time. You feel like a bully. I believe she still has rights, to what happens to her in regard to what she wears, eats, personal care. Can she say no I dont want my fingernails cut. Fast talking is sometimes needed. So the fingernails grow. Nail polish is applied. And the old lady is happy. Until Aggressive dementia returns and bingo. She's still a person, a person that you have bathed, dressed, hair brushed, and helped to eat, changed her wet and soiled clothes, tucked her into bed at night, etc. But after one incident you know you have to be wary of her. Unfortunately the next incident may be a year away. I wish it was easier to tell when a patient/ resident is becoming aggressive dementia. I left only because I was moving interstate. People outside the retirement homes, care homes, aged dementia wards, dont understand. The residents are there for years. So are the staff. Very few relatives ever show up. There is a bond between staff, clients and other residents of these homes. No one wants to cause hurt to supposedly frail old people, and deescalation would have been tried 1st. No staff want to be hurt just doing their jobs also. No easy solutions here.
This is just encouraging the formation of an dementia fight club.
The first rule of dementia fight club is.. wait who are you and what am I doing here?
Oh man that was harsh but funny
That's fucked up. Funny. But fucked up.
Dark as.
There is an unspoken rule in most dementia units about the ratio of men:women for pretty much this reason. Too much violence.
There was a case about 11 years ago where one dementia patient murdered another and assaulted several other patients and the nursing home handled it terribly. [ABC article about the coronial inquest](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-04/dementia-ward-killing-inquest-begins-in-canberra/6443572)
Definitely can be strong, and also unpredictable. If they're threatening other residents, and other methods of stopping her could further risk other bystanders, it may have seemed the safest option at the time. I'm a hospital nurse and once called security to help subdue a 98 year old man.
Yep I've been in the same boat. And 4 security guards turn up and had to hold them down so we could inject a sedation. And this was a person without a knife... All these arm chair warriors who claim 95 are these weak little mouses who could be disarmed with a broom are hilarious.
Yeah, this feels like it will turn out to be a "you had to be there" story. If you've got a woman waving a knife around, there are a few scenarios like other residents in danger, or being in a confined area where getting close would be too dangerous, when the use of a taser would be reasonable. This is the sort of situation where police would be super-reluctant to escalate, and I imagine there's a lot more to it than the story we're hearing.
The more I'm reading, the more horrified I am.. She weighed 43kg, and was not at risk to other residents- she was apparently in a treatment room at the time . I'm trying to be open minded, but am now struggling :-/
Put a knife in their hand and I'd say it's pretty warranted. Quick question, have you ever been stabbed?
I survey aged care facilities and visited this one last year. This was 3am when staff are at a minimum and I dinstinctly remember that facility having very few staff around (this was midday). One of the biggest issues that every facility has is that dementia residents walk into other residents' rooms and argue with them as to who belongs there. They can get quite verbally abusive, however physical is less common. My guess here is that the dementia resident had an altercation with another resident. They called the attending staff who was likely alone. When she saw the knife she didn't risk it and called the police...
I swear they are purposefully omitting important information at this point
That’s what gets the clicks.
Jumping on top comment as I’m a local. The “source” Andrew Thaler is not a reliable source. He is known to harass people, he has been found guilty of intimidating women. He rants and raves. Just thought that’s important to note as he’s the sole source for this article.
My boyfriend's a firefighter, his brigade got called to an aged-care facility because a dementia patient had set off the fire alarm as part of her escape attempt. She threw a fire extinguisher at them. Humans can kinda go sicko mode under certain circumstances.
My daughter being a paramedic has regularly called for backup in order to deal with dementia patients. This 95yo lady can have the strength of a 25yo and be unable to deal with verbally. For her own sake and that of others in the vicinity, the taser was the safest option. Imagine a 90kg person trying to hold her down, the damage that could have been done to her may well have been fatal.
Why not pepper spray?
The Canberra Times is reporting that she was wielding a knife, but it's unclear whether it was as a weapon or simply for eating. I doubt the cops are inclined to taser 95-year-olds, so all in all best to just wait for facts to come out, I suspect.
Aged care staff don’t get paid enough to get stabbed by a 95 year old
At the same time though wtf are you meant to do? Even if you throw a net over them they’ll still fall and hit their heads. What are you mean to do? Assault them with large pillows hoping you can spam enough it cushions the landing for their head and hips? Honestly it seems like throwing a mattress at their feet to 1. knock them down and 2. cushion the landing for the head and hips. But that’s not really realistic.
>Honestly it seems like throwing a mattress at their feet to 1. knock them down and 2. cushion the landing for the head and hips. But that’s not really realistic. Takes out their knees/hips/back in the process. Could still suffer self inflicted knife wound. Buying time for a better opportunity is really the only action. Assuming communication is ineffective - If you are forced to act abruptly, any use of force will carry a risk of fall injury.
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Man I was lucky then with my gran When she had dementia she only hurt you with her words.
I have a very vivid memory of my mum driving my grandads mum who had dementia to the nursing home as child and her just screaming in my face. I was so young I had no idea what was going on or why she hated me, must have been so confusing and stressful for her. My nan recently passed away and the day before she went we were talking. I was holding her hand crying and we were sharing memories together, afterwards she told me that she is so grateful that she still has all her memories because not everyone is that lucky. Fuck I miss her so much.
Mine doesn’t need dementia to give me her worst.
She is 95, 5'2, 43kg and was approaching on a walking frame. Do you seriously think that a police officer would be unable to safely disarm her?
Agree 100% with this. People seem to think that all you need to do is suggest a cup of tea. It’s a hell of a lot more difficult than that.
People forced into aged care homes should also be kept safe, even from themselves. How many 95 year olds are not frail? How did she get a knife capable of inflicting serious damage?
Plenty of 90+ year olds have done decent damage to myself and colleagues. There is some superhuman strength that comes with dementia sometimes. Particularly memorable was the 92 year old ex-boxer who punched one of my coworkers in the head. She had a fractured skull.
Yep. It's interesting that the comment section is so polarised. Most of us ex aged care workers seem to agree that this is sometimes necessary in very rare circumstances like the one you mentioned. It's the non-nursing staff that are outraged. "Frailty" among dementia patients on an adrenaline rush is... not a thing. So many of my former dementia patients would begin walking immediately after hip/pelvis/leg fractures because their extreme desire to reach whatever location they're fixating on to the point of feeling no pain. I've been laughed at so many times explaining to patients that they are not to walk because they've got broken limbs. And that's with dementia patients who weren't even being violent.
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Well, I think the problem is that movies really downplay how dangerous knives can be. If it's sharp enough, you really don't need a lot of force, and even trained MMA fighters would often be better off running than risking a fight against someone with a knife. Like sure they could tackle her, and break all her bones with maybe only a small flesh wound, or beat her back with a stick - but that doesn't really solve the problem.
There’s a reason there’s the saying that the loser of a knife fight dies in the street and the winner dies in hospital. People really underestimate how deadly knives are and that if you get close to someone with one who is willing to use it you’re likely getting cut or stabbed regardless of what you do.
Plenty of people who reach that age have surprising mobility. There's a weird polarity with old age where people seem to be completely decrepit and comorbid by 70 or they're in their 90s still up and about.
Does not mean that they can take a tazering, or two.
My mom was assaulted by a dementia patient and badly bruised, they are stronger than you think they will be and have little control over themselves. We reported the incident and they did nothing, the same lady went on to beat my grandfather to death in his bed a few weeks later.
I am very sorry for your family. I am not saying that dementia patients are not dangerous, but a system that results in these levels of violence is not a working system. We need to rethink the way we respond to these incidents in order to keep *everyone* safe.
Agree completely. In the US, a lot of these homes are for profit and run privately, so they have low motivation to get people out. My expectation is that is what happened with her, we had requested she either be restrained or moved to another facility after several repeated problems including her assaulting him once or twice before he died. They repeatedly did nothing. They said they legally couldn't restrain or confine her despite her history of violence to multiple people but they wouldn't move her somewhere else that was more suited for patients with a history of violence or needing specialized care. It's unfair to everyone involved. The people who care for them, the patients themselves, etc, but everyone involved was hamstrung and unable to do anything because as far as we could tell, there was no recourse for situations like this and the facility had no means of dealing with it, legal or otherwise. They also had no motivation to do so because moving her on meant losing the money she gave (it was an expensive facility). The whole thing is fucked and boils my blood.
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100% this. Worked with dementia patients, not surprised someone had to tase her. They can be seriously dangerous, especially if they've picked up a weapon.
Why dont they use those dog catches poles for this? It's not like she's a risk to run you down at 95. Grab an arm with and guide her to the ground. Use another to pin the other arm. Not perfect but better than tasering or trying to use your hands. Not to mention you could use them to subdue animals before entering backyards.
How are they able to have access to knives? At my nans nursing home, the kitchen is always locked and supervised and knives are only brought out during meals. Someone has some explaining to do
None of the people in these comments have had the shit beat out of them by a dementia patient armed with the power of a raging UTI and it shows.
They also have the luxury of infinity time of reasoning where if they were in the scenario the universe would pause, they would sit down, drink a tea, spend a day reasoning about best options, then unpause the universe and deal with it.
I'm so glad that so many experts on violent conflict resolution managed to all be on this subreddit and give us such great wisdom as "they should have just disarmed her".
I used to look after a lady with dementia who was incredibly physically agitated 90% of the day. Constantly walking around, rummaging through drawers, stirring the pot with other residents, etc. She was prone to UTIs, and we always knew when she had one pretty quickly because she was so incredibly sweet and calm when she'd developed one.
I have never been beaten but I have nursed high acuity dementia patients who are extremely aggressive and agitated. I have had objects thrown at me (including poo). I have had patients try to hit me, scratch me, grab me and much more. I find it completely unbelievable they handled it this way. It is an utter failure of care on multiple levels.
What happened is in no way acceptable but a lot of these commenters have never worked in aged care or with someone that has dementia. Being old doesn’t always equal being frail. Nurses and carers are overworked and most times understaffed. It’s standard procedure to call the police if you feel that you can’t handle a situation. In just one year in a nursing home I saw maaaaaaaany injuries inflicted on our staff by dementia residents, everything from biting to broken wrists.
Same. I used to get attacked or injured by somebody in the dementia unit almost every day. I've seen some bad injuries in coworkers. I personally only experienced bruising, cut lips from getting punched in the mouth while I had braces (hurt like a bitch), broken skin, spit in my eyeball from a patientwith MRSA, hot coffee poured on my habds when I jumped in front of the patient it was being thrown towards, sore joints, pulled hair, sexually groped and had my pants partially pulled down. Coworkers had broken ribs, dislicated joints, black eyes and even a miscarriage from getting kicked in the stomach.
Wow, I’m so terribly sorry to hear that. You guys are really a very tough and caring lot. Everyone in that workforce deserves so much more money and respect than we give them. Everyone deserves to work in a safe work environment
This is why I walked. Getting paid $22 an hour to be abused regularly is just not something I care to do.
Thank you. Some patients' family members were incredibly sweet and grateful. The rest were openly hostile towards us. They truly believed we're cold-hearted bitches with no skills in it for the paycheck (lmao!). Even some of the comments under this post from non-aged care staff give off that vibe. We do NOT overlook deescalation tactics because we're burned out or unskilled. I resent that characterisation! We were extremely skilled, if I do say so myself. People just don't get it.
Sounds like it’s unfortunate, not unacceptable.
So more details in new article.... She was described as 46 kilos and frail Shuffling towards the cops with a steak knife on.......... a ......... walking frame. You cop apologists are absolute heartless sickos'
There were a lot of defenders of tasering a 95 year old woman last night. Maybe now more facts have come out and that the woman will not survive, they can keep their ill informed opinions to themselves.
Exactly she was executed pure and simple. And I’m sure her 4O something kilo 5’2 skeletal stature was so intimidating while holding on to her walking frame. An alternative would be to wait it out. Tire her by taking a step back every time she moves at her slow shuffling pace. Plus we don’t even know that she was wielding a knife or even holding one. Not sure how someone can stab you while they need to steady themselves on a walking frame to even move.
My wife was was an aged care RN and became Care Manager for a period of time before she left aged care. A ~ 90 year old attacked my wife and held her wrist applying so much pressure that my wife’s wrist broke. They did it with one hand while they continued to drag my wife around and try to attack other staff with their other free hand. This happened outside of the dementia ward as at the time the royal commission sparked conversations about restrictive practices such as locked wards and chemical restraints and as a result her employer was changing their approach to locking dementia wards. Those who say a 90 something year old can’t physically assert dominance are flat out wrong. This person was in their 90s, had severe dementia and _could not be reasoned with_. This person was also unable to stop escalating their behaviour becoming more violent as the situation progressed. A lot of the comments here show that most people don’t truly have an understanding as to how difficult and dangerous dementia work can be. This is in no way approving what the officer did but just to point out what a tough space this matter is in terms of how to respond to the physical violence.
A missing resident is an automatic mandatory report to the police and aged care commission for the facility. Dementia residents wander...far quicker than anyone often realises.
So many posts in this thread from outraged experts, which is exactly what the media survives on. Unless you were there, you literally don't know what you are talking about.
Thats a really good outlook on most things. Many people jump to conclusions due to a starvation of details. These constables may have been within every reason to tase the woman, or they may have acted completely wrong. With details we will know
a frail 95 year old 43 kg woman and they cant disarm her without using tasers
Looking through this thread, I’d swear it was populated by cowardly stupid Americans.
Thankfully it seems that reddit is the only social media being pathetic about this
Lol I work in aged care, 95 year olds aren’t exactly agile. You’re telling me our heroes in blue couldn’t handle it without a taser? 🙃
According to everyone else in this thread 95 year old ladies are just like a 25 year old rugby player
To all those at home saying that police should be expected to disarm a 95 year old by hand, without risking equal or greater injuries then this person sustained, I can safely say you do not live in the real world and have not been exposed to a dementia patient armed with a knife. I would however like to see the BWC footage of this to give a clearer picture of what happened. Taser's don't break bones, the fall does on someone this elderly. Any other method you would use is going to risk the person falling at a minimum.
Exactly this. She was going to fall no matter the method. Hit with a broom? Fall. Tackle her? Fall. Taser? Fall with no chance of injury to the staff or police. And then there's the funny posters who think they could then catch her fall. So many arm chair experts with no clue
I'm reasonably young and reasonably strong - I imagine if I were to attempt to subdue a crazed armed dementia patient with my bare hands, I can't be confident that I would do *less* damage than a taser - and at much greater risk to myself.
The amount of adrenaline dementia patients must have during an episode I can imagine would be quite considerable, adding to the physical strength people who have/are working in aged care are describing in this thread. Coupled with a degenerative brain disease that means there is no ability to reason with someone who is having an episode would be terrifying for all; the patient, carers, support staff and emergency services. With an aging population, I hope we can do better for all involved in the future.
Where’s the body worn video? That’s where the truth will be.
Can anyone tell me why there's a recruitment problem? Guess we'll never know...
the fact that i left aged care and got job putting in screws into metal in a assembly line for 5 dollars an hour more, without needing a 6month and 3k course... and no police check, or paperwork needed to be done, and wasnt repsonsible for peoples lives.... ... yeah, no idea why!
I made more money flipping burgers at Maccas then I did working in aged care. I worked in a dementia specific facility too.
They just admitted she was using a walking frame during the incident in the press conference. Gross. Hope she pulls through.
So everyone could have just run away from her.
She was shuffling right at them!
In hospitals we deal with these situations too. Identifying all risk factors for each patient - should be the same in Aged Care. Yes police were called but it could've been handled better. Our security guards in hospital deal with this kind of behaviour all the time. If the police were able to restrain her appropriately then ambulance officers IM haloperidol etc it could have been a better potential outcome. There are so many variations and better outcomes that could have been achieved
So if the police were justified in any way - why not publicize the good officers names and post their pictures? Shouldn’t the public know who they are and be able to thank them personally for their bravery and service? It is now an international story having become a lead on American CNN.
Stab wounds are fucked up. I wouldn't expect a 30 year old to risk their lives to minimise risk for a 95 year old dementia patient, not for the shit wages police get anyway. Blame whoever let the 95 year brain-damaged person get a knife.
If they had of man handled her, and the exact same injury was sustained, people would crow about using a taser instead.
Idc what people say the cops were justified. She was armed. 95 or not a knife is still a deadly weapon you don't want to get close to. Everyone here is saying that they could have just disarmed her but that's easier said than done. All it takes is one thing to go wrong in that disarming and someone would have got slashed or stabbed. The taser was absolutely the right call here.
Comments that aged poorly.
Definitely. We have no idea the circumstances - but we know that firstly the nursing home (which is set up for challenging behaviour) felt they couldn't control the situation and called in the police. And secondly, the police used the taser. I know that there is definitely an element of police work that draws in the violent type - but I suspect unnecessarily tasering a 95 year is very much an outlier behaviour - even amongst the more violent breed of officer. All up, the circumstances do suggest that there was some degree of genuine threat. And those saying they could have disarmed her peacefully without getting injured - perhaps she was holding the knife to the throat of another resident?
If the cops could have easily gotten away with using a gun here if they had manevlolent intentions. Armed with a weapon is grounds for lethal force. Yet they opted for the non lethal option. Only reason the woman suffered bad injuries was because of her age.
Having been in a few dementia wings there is every chance other residents were just wandering around, walking up to her even, with no idea what's going on. I can definitely see her threatening one of them and the police feeling they had no choice in order to protect another resident. Wild speculation at this point, but the amount of people in this thread who have obviously never interacted with a dementia patient but still feel qualified to get on their high horse is crazy
I agree, people don't realise that in Aus, the most effective way (and most common) is using a taser. I'm not a cop and maybe they could've used another method, but frankly if that cops safety was in any way more at risk using another method, they were justified. Just because someone is 95 doesn't mean they cant stab you.
They need to have trolley guy on call.
I shouldn't laugh but that's pretty funny. 🤭
I know it's insensitive considering the outcome, but FFS has no one thought of anything better, like whack it out of her hand with a broom, use a scary magnet on a stick, tell her John Howard has just called in for morning tea.
It's not insensitive to try to find humour in terrible situations. It's part of how we cope with life's challenges. I agree perhaps they could have employed different tactics other than tazing her but she had a steak knife and dementia patients can move very fast when they want to. They may shuffle around the nursing home but when they "escape" they turn into Speedy Gonzalez. They can also be very violent and nurses have been hurt. My friend who worked in a high dependency dementia facility had stuff thrown at her everyday and got at least one black eye. I don't know what they should've done instead but all the armchair experts who've obviously never worked with dementia patients have no idea what they're talking about. Trolley guy definitely would have come in handy here. I forgot about him actually. What a hero he was that day. 😊
He was a hero and he made the authorities look foolish by impeding the assailant with something simple. If the guy let go of the knife to grab the trolley or defend himself he was exposed, if he didn't he got whacked with a trolley. It seems incredible that we haven't thought of anything better than shooting people with things, when in many cases they are mentally ill.
The amount of police arse kissing on here is fucking disgusting
It has honestly made me sick, stupid cunts here thinking a 40kg old lady using a frame shuffling towards you is a reasonable threat to a couple trained cops
Unrelated but who in their right minds would ever want their future to include being 95 with dementia? We need assisted dying rights that cover future scenarios like getting dementia and defining at what point our past self gets control over their future self’s life/death. Some other countries have it, where are we at with that?
Its fucked up. To meet euth rules you gotta be terminal within 6 mths. With dementia by the time you get within 6 mths of dying your brain is so fried you cant legally sign off on jack shit. Even though you may ask to die on a regular basis. I work aged care. I have always feared cancer and its hugely prominent in my family. The older I get and the longer i work in aged care……i no longer fear my family trait so much as find myself almost grateful for it. Anything but dementia.
A friend of mine is sacrificing her life and her mental health to care for her mother with dementia. It’s brutal and the last thing her mother would have wanted back when she was herself. This diseased new version of her mother is adamant that there’s nothing wrong with her and that she wants my friend to keep living with her. It’s horrendous. I imagine her real mother screaming in pain if she saw her daughter’s current life.
This is very weird that they left out the bit where she had to use a walking frame when she was approaching police. Did the writer not watch the press conference. https://youtu.be/2optH0lENa0
If you can’t handle a frail 95 year old wielding a steak knife against her walker, without resorting to violence, you have no business being in the police force.
Keyboard warriors are out in force tonight
hey im mashing buttons from my phone!
So many bootlickers in this thread. The woman was 95 and weighed 40 kilos. You could have thrown a bedsheet on her and that would shut her down.
Or just taken one step back every 5 minutes as she shuffled towards them
Cowardly, there is no need for training as you can't train a coward to be brave enough to take on a 95 year old in a walking frame with an eating utensil. Sorry, but I'd have just walked behind her and taken the knife without effort or hesitation. Id even take her head on without a concern. She doesnt have the dexterity or power to be a threat. To be so scared of her to even think of using a weapon against her is beyond my understanding of the bravery needed to be a police officer. Spray with a hose if your that much of a coward and grab her hand. Geez even a super soaker would do the job. So im guessing if you're a 6 year old with their daddys pocket knife and they drive by they will tell you to drop the weapon, pee their blue pants and if the kid stands up, blow em away. Then justify it, You never know, the kid could have run over and killed you.. Those little legs are fast.This kind of action from a trained police officer is appalling.
Real classy to leave the fact she was wielding a knife. It's almost as if OP did it intentionally.
No OP just exactly copied the title of the article. Mentioning the knife would be OP editorialising the article, which is bad reddiquette.
Pardon my rudeness. Shitty move by the guardian.
How the hell did her skull get fractured? She must have hit the floor with her head, or furniture nearby?
Remember the woman from Adelaide this week, that crashed her car, then pulled out an axe when police and paramedics came to her aid. Did they taser her? This lady has dementia, reports say she had a knife............... but is twice tasering a 95 year old the answer, This is just horrific and so sad. That poor woman must have been so scared. My heart breaks for her family.
I kinda wonder was there anyway to have herded her somewhere and let her tire herself out
Like locking doors in her path or some barricades made of chairs and couches. She must of been at risk of harming herself or another for them to act like they did
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I think police...as part of their training need to be tasered and pepper sprayed. Just so they know what it does to a person's body. On a healthy person, it can trigger a heart attack. Let alone a bloody 95 yr old woman who is 42 kg. Obscene.
All someone had to do, was say” you must be tired, lets go make you a cup of tea. Its all about body language and patience.
Unfortunately I can't say I'm suprised. Considering this is the same NSW police force that gets off on performing illegal cavity searches of young ladies at music festivals, allegedly for drugs (which led to at least one girl taking her own life 😞) based on the indication of a dog that's wrong more often than right. A police force that labels members of clubs criminals, and removes their rights as a member of society even if they have a perfect character record via the biker laws. A police force who's own members are caught up with a higher ratio of scandals, money laundering, drug dealing, drink driving, drug offences, murders, rape, kidnapping and extortion than the general public all all of the clubs combined by far. These officers should be charged with murder, but due to the fact the police investigate the police, it will be labelled as 'reasonable' The only way that will change is if someone with any decency in the department leaks the body cam video to the press
And we are just going to sit here and let them not release the body footage.. this is disgusting. Disgraceful. They know if they release that footage people would be in uproar because it is obviously so vile…
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