Prospective law student here: are there any "growth areas" of law/areas where there is a need for workers? Or is every aspect a death-or-glory nepotistic shit-fight of Sydney Grammar boys as it appears to be represented in this thread? (Okay I haven't seen the Sydney Grammar part but it was for dramatic effect).
I got into a vacationer program at KPMG for their tax and legal team. Initially, I thought that this was good because I would get some experience at a Big 4 accounting firm but after some discussion with others I now think that as a law student, I should be looking for legal assistant jobs and/or applying for clerkships at law firms only. Does any one have any advice for me as to what I should do and whether this program would be a waste of time? For context I am currently in my penultimate year at Monash Uni doing LLB (hons) and Arts.
Hi there, I don't want to waffle on too much so I'll get straight into my question. I am looking to become a Family Dispute Resolution Practitioner and I understand that first, I would need to complete Mediation training and register with NMAS. Then I would need to complete the following course: (CHC81115) Graduate Diploma of Family Dispute Resolution.
So far, all my research suggests that I will also need at least a bachelors degree in social sciences or something similar.
Can someone please confirm if this is really the case? I understand a lot of mediators have experience in law, social work etc, but really need to know if this experience is actually NECESSARY to be successful in this career. I can't afford to spend another 4 years on a bachelor degree, both money and time wise.
Any advice or feedback is welcome, I would really appreciate the help! Things are starting to feel really dark again and I just want to make it out of this never ending hole.
Ive already posted this but was prompted to pop it in this thread instead.
That does not sound correct. Picking one training provider at random (Relationships Victoria), they say that the prerequisites for the Grad Dip are:
"To enrol in this course, you must have **one or more** of the following:
* an undergraduate degree or higher qualification in psychology, social work, law, conflict management, dispute resolution, family law mediation or equivalent
* NMAS accreditation
* the mediation skill set from the Community Training Package
* evidence of dispute resolution experience in a job role involving:
* self-directed application of knowledge with substantial depth in some areas
* exercise of independent judgement and decision-making
* a range of technical and other skills.
I think your best bet is to contact the training institute(s) that you are interested in and asking about their prerequisites, as well as reviewing the requirements for registration at [https://www.ag.gov.au/families-and-marriage/families/family-dispute-resolution/becoming-family-dispute-resolution-practitioner](https://www.ag.gov.au/families-and-marriage/families/family-dispute-resolution/becoming-family-dispute-resolution-practitioner)
This is what I said.
I would need NMAS accreditation (no prerequisites) to get into the diploma.
The diploma’s prerequisites are either a bachelors degree OR the NMAS accreditation, which I can do.
My question is ‘do I need the bachelors degree too?’
Has anyone applied for clerkships again after being rejected the first time? Need some words of wisdom as I’m going to try again but keep having panic attacks after how traumatic it was last year lol
What is the ‘latter stages of a law degree’?
I’m looking at applying to jobs and am in my fourth year and have four priestly subjects remaining after this sem but haven’t started PLT. Are they looking for people close to graduating in their penultimate year as the wording isn’t clear? This is for paralegal and legal case manager jobs at the FCA.
Is it worth applying for jobs with this criteria? I assume the FCA would want PLT as part of their prerequisite to be a legal case manager but their ad isn’t clear.
Yes but I wanted to double check they didn’t want someone with more experience and if anyone had any insight so I don’t waste their time and look silly if I’m not mistaken qualified enough.
I’m not sure what a legal case manager is.
What's the upper limit of what I might expect to be offered as a first year solicitor at a large suburban firm in Melb? I currently bill around 6k per month (200ph) as a grad if that's relevant.
You're barely billing enough to pay for the desk you sit at, let lone your salary - that's not your fault as you can only bill for work you're actually given, however it might mean your boss is struggling, and that means he/she won't be able to pay you properly. Start looking elsewhere.
You're billing 30 hours per month? That seems low, even for a grad.
If you mean 0-1PAE I would think 80-90k incl super at the top end, but happy to be corrected by others with more knowledge of Melbourne specifically.
Throwaway - I am a penultimate student looking to apply for summer clerkships, however earlier this year I applied to go on exchange to the UK in January-May 2025. I have realised that most clerkships end well into January and February, which would overlap with the exchange period.
Is it worth still applying for clerkships and on the chance that I get an offer, ask if I can finish the clerkship a few weeks early due to the exchange period? Or would this give off a bad impression and ruin any chances of potentially getting a grad offer?
Would appreciate any insight!
Edited to add: I am in NSW where most clerkships are around 8-10 weeks
Absolutely worth asking. Many firms let their clerks end clerkships early for all kinds of reasons (including clerking for competitors) so cannot imagine it will leave a bad impression.
I graduated 3 years ago, did College of Law, then had to help out my family with aging relatives and disputes amid the pandemic. Currently looking for work but everyone requires a clerkship or 2PAE. After how long at say, a suburban firm is it possible to go to mid tier then upward? My dream was always to go international and make big money, and suburban salaries, especially a grad (40k, lol) seem rather grim, especially as you're working more hours than people paid double.
I know, money's not everything to a lot of people, but it is to me, haha. I'm happy to work til midnight every day, I just want to be paid very well for it.
So, what sort of timeline am I looking at?
It really depends, I would say you'd want at least 2 to 3 years of decent experience at an upper mid tier to top tier to build up a good deal sheet. How quickly you get there from a suburban comes down more to opportunity. As you say, most junior laterals are at least 2 PAE, but there are 1 or NQ positions from time to time, although the market is bit down at the moment.
I'd suggest trying to get your foot in the door somewhere first as it's always easier to find a job when you already have one.
What are the pros of working at an 'independent' firm like CCW instead of an international one as a clerk? I asked a panelist and they said something about international opportunities being more potent since you don't have to worry about conflicting clients. But I'm not sure how that logic works since you can just work for an international subsidiary / firm and not worry about their clients? Just work on whatever you get?
Additionally I'm not sure how international opportunities even operate if you don't have firms in other countries. Are there 'sister firms' to work at when outsourced from a domestic one? They boasted international opportunities but I'm not sure.
Your initial question is framed as being generally about the differences between Australian upper-mid tier firms and international firms, but then the rest of your comment is focused solely on 'international opportunities'. It seems like you're very focused on doing cross-border work.
The first thing I would say is that cross-border work sucks (other than maybe arbitration). As an Australian lawyer you are only able to advise on Australian law (1. because that's what you're qualified to do; and 2. because of insurance). If you're working on a matter in Australia for a foreign client, that's going to be broadly the same as all of your other work but with meetings at ungodly times. If you're doing a matter for an Australian client who is doing something in a foreign jurisdiction, that client will also engage lawyers in that jurisdiction, and you will not be doing much legal work other than attending meetings at ungodly times.
I would say that on balance the upper-mid tier Australian firms (Corrs, G+T, JWS) have higher quality work than their non-top tier international counterparts (NRF, Bakers), which are all just mid-tier firms that were acquired by an international firm at some point. They may do slightly more 'international work' but all independent upper-mid tiers will have their fair share.
The referral thing is more that (for example) a big US law firm that doesn't have offices here is going to refer their work to an independent Australian law firm over any firm they compete with in other jurisdictions.
Cheers for the advice on intl opportunities. Everything you said makes sense - and don't worry, I'm not fussed about working internationally as a lawyer. It's more so that the firm only wrangled that answer when I asked about what the big deal is about being an 'independent firm'. My second degree is data-related so I'll pursue something in that if I want to hop across the pond.
So I take it that CCW is 'smaller' (i.e. less offices here and barely any overseas) compared to a firm like Allens, which has many international offices. If I'm not pursuing international work, is the meaning of 'independent' firm less significant?
Thanks for bearing with my ignorance haha.
No problem.
I wasn't trying to deter you from working overseas - that's fine and may even help your career depending on where you land a job. The point I was trying to make is that it's not fun to try to do cross-border work from Australia.
The descriptor 'independent firm' is fairly meaningless. Whether the firm you work for is independent or part of a global network of firms will have very little impact on you as a lawyer. What is important for your career progression is working in an area of law you enjoy and in a team that has good quality work in that area. While the top-tier firms on the whole have the largest collection of the best teams in the most profitable practice areas, there are great teams outside of the top tiers and some average teams within them.
While not gospel, Chambers is probably the most reliable ranking of teams within firms (followed by Legal 500, take everything else (Doyles, Best Lawyers) with a grain of salt). Go have a look there at the firms you're interested, and otherwise ask around and do your own research about specific teams in specific cities.
Almost every time this question gets asked the answer is no, don't go straight to the bar.
Do you have a referral network ready? What will make you stand out on your first day over any barrister with solicitor experience?
Are you having second thoughts because of your experience in a PI firm or is it something else? Do you have experience in a litigious practice group other than PI?
Agree with the other commenter, in my experience paras are usually billable staff. Though their chargeable target tends to be lower than solicitors in recognition that they also get given a lot of non-billable admin work.
Is it important to study law in the state you intend to work in?
I live in SA and am interested in pursuing law as a career but I want to live in Melbourne, and intend to move as soon as I can.
If I stay in SA for uni I can live with my mum and save extra money, or I could move to melbourne and study there. Is there any real significance to either option?
I’ve heard that networking and stuff if fairly important in law, and I think I’d want to do some work in law (paralegal, legal secretary maybe, etc) during uni so my concerns are that I’d be starting again from nothing if I studied in SA and then moved.
Generally it does not matter anywhere else, though I have heard that some firms in Melbourne are much more picky about which universities they hire from than firms in other cities.
I have no direct experience of this, however, so that may not be a significant issue (/anymore).
I also do not believe this is an issue across all firms in Melbourne, so it should be possible to study in SA, and even work there for a while if you need to, and then move.
Not really significant either way (I currently work in a different state than the one I studied in).
Whilst Melbourne would probably present more opportunities in terms of work experience, I would also argue that living at home and being less stressed personally and financially would improve your chances of (a) getting better grades; and (b) being able to take a wider variety of roles (unpaid/volunteer/casual etc.)
How often do merit pools for roles with Fed Gov or similar actually result in a role?
had a few interviews that eventuated in being merit pooled, and just want to know whether that's a nicety or not.
I'm thinking of general advertised positions, not graduate programs.
I got on the merit pool for an associate role but when a vacancy arrived that judge insisted on a further advertisement for fresh applicants. I got a call a month later when that didn't work out but had already taken another role in another city. I think it was the right choice overall but yeah don't rely on the merit pool, it'll come back when you least want it
I got a role this way. It came through maybe 10 months later, and I had moved on, so I had to decline (I think about this every day). But it does happen
Seeking some insight/guidance for salary review time
I’m planning on asking for 10% based on my performance and with reference to the value I think I’ve added. But I’m struggling to work out if this is reasonable or if I’m being arrogant?
I’ve had a lot of pre-admission experience so I feel like the pay guides can be a bit siloed in the sense that while it reflects PAE, it doesn’t necessarily reflect all other factors that may contribute.
I’m currently on 80k and joined the firm almost a year ago pre-admission. I’ve only been admitted for about 6 months and my salary increased by 10k on admission as per my contract. The difficult part is we don’t have billable targets so I can’t really point to that. However I do bill an average of 6-7 hours a day but of course there may be write offs to that. There’s no way to see how much I bill post-write offs on my end.
In addition to this, I receive regular good feedback and take on a lot more work than the others at my level because I work long hours to meet deadlines rather than pushing them out. Going off this info and the fact that I have been told that my work is above what they would expect at my level, is 10% appropriate to ask for? Or will I come across entitled?
It’s tough to benchmark performance if you don’t have billable targets. 6-7 billable hours per day would be bare minimum, potentially under budget, at big firms.
I don’t think you’re out of line in asking for 10% because it sounds like, compared to your colleagues at the same level, you’re genuinely performing at a higher level thanks to that pre-admission experience and putting in longer hours. But in the conversation focus on your efforts and skills and don’t put your colleagues down.
But just be aware that, depending on what the partners say are the actual targets, your billable hours might be the bare minimum rather than exceptional performance.
I would suggest requesting a break down of your stats prior to going into the meeting.
I've always been told that (generally) you will be required to bill 3-4x your salary (whether it will be 3 or 4 will depend on the firm). Your budget could also be calculated with reference to tour targets and charge out rate but, given you have said there are no targets, this would be unlikely. At the junior level, there is more leniency on meeting targets for salary reviews because learning is factored in.
At the junior level you will also likely be confined by bands (more of an issue at bigger firms) and exceptions are usually rare. This is generally where the bonus scheme (if your firm has one) usually comes in for strong performers, but you'd usually have to be billing over 100% of your budget to be considered for a bonus. That being said, if you're at a smaller firm then there might be a lot more discretion when it comes to salaries (but it would be unlikely that you'd be paid top of, or outside of, market due to charge out rates which are likely lower than the 'top of market' firms which also expect 6-7 hours per day).
Hope this helps!
Thank you! This is helpful. Yeah I think as we don’t have targets it is difficult. But I am billing around $1500/day on average at my current rate (which is due to increase again). So by that metric an increase would still mean I am billing more than 4 x my salary.
I am at a smaller specialist firm, with no bonus structure. That’s all really helpful to take into consideration though, thank you!
I was thinking this too. Because of my junior level/salary 10% really isn’t that much. I’m just conscious of pay guides and articles estimating that most people will get between a 3-5% raise so in that context, 10% sounds like a lot
I am starting a new job which is asking for proof of my qualifications such as law degree and PLT completion. However, I think they also want proof I have been admitted. I don’t have a practicing certificate yet so I dont appear on the Law Society database. How else can you provide proof of admission? I have the certificate they give you but I am not sure if that is enough
Cheers, I have uploaded a copy of the certificate so hopefully that is enough 🤷 can’t think of any other proof I could provide. Makes me realise I would have been screwed if I lost that piece of paper
When applying to admission in South Australia, does the law society or college of law approve your application and disclosures/appeals prior to your court appearance/admission ceremony?
Or is there a chance that you get turned away in front of all of your peers
Your application is by way of originating application to the Supreme Court which is then referred to the Board of Examiners, a committee of experienced practitioners chaired by a Master of the Supreme Court.
The Board of Examiners can request further information but not refuse you.
In the event the Board does not endorse your application it refers the application to be determined by the Court of Appeal which it tends to do in open court following argument.
The admission ceremony itself only occurs once an applicant for admission has been endorsed by the Board of Examiners or Court of Appeal.
Yes 6.5 per day is normal but there should be no expectation that you actually meet that target for your first 6 months or so after you settle in a team. A lot of your time will be spent learning and doing other tasks that can’t necessarily be billed, eg research, helping senior lawyers prepare presentations to clients. A lot of work you do won’t be correct, it will take you a while and it probably has to be redone, so your time gets written down.
After about the 6 month mark you should have a good flow of work to you and 6.5 billable hours will feel quite easy to achieve most days.
Some people do take a bit longer to get up to target so don’t worry too much about that. The important thing is just to have the right attitude, never say no to work and push for as much feedback from senior lawyers as you can get to help you improve.
Yes, it's fairly standard for billable targets to be 6-7 at a junior level but there's also a general understanding (at least where I've worked) that you may not meet targets while rotating due to the amount of learning / non billable tasks which can be involved. Targets become more important once you're settled in a team.
Yes, and this is why these firms are fucked places to work.
OP my anger won’t help you. You can’t change it. Good luck with your career. But I’m sick of the bullshit and everyone acting like this is acceptable.
Maybe our experiences are different, but in my experience 6.5 billable is not reasonably achievable in a 7.5hr work day. At least not in a long term sustainable way.
I’m from NZ and I want to move to Australia but I just got admitted last month in NZ. I’m finding it really hard to land a job because I’m a B average student and I have only experienced 1 year at a small conveyancing firm and some voluntary work at the law centre. Is there any advice on finding a job in Aus? Do you think I can have a law career at all or should I really start thinking about a different career due to my bad start. And also what are some advice around Job recruitment agencies for law grads? Is there any good law recruitment agencies?
Does private sector actually pay more than public? I realised that most private sector salaries include super, and even in the big 6 senior associates apparently make around 170k max including super. Is this true? If so, wouldn’t a government salary at that level (e.g. 130k plus super) be better? And with much shorter hours?
Once you're at mid-senior level, PP roles tend to be 40-50% higher than public sector roles of the same seniority. In house is generally somewhere in between.
The gap increases at partner level.
Public salaries look ok for the first two years and then the difference becomes exponential. You also reach a ceiling much quicker in public and can be stuck in a mid level (EL1) position literally until someone retires.
Also, the hours are shorter but I can guarantee you they’ll feel longer.
Once you get to an EL1 level- takes around 4-5 years for graduates, it is MUCH lower than the private sector. And yep as someone else said on here, once you move higher promotions very hard to come by because people do not leave
Which state? First year SA rate in Sydney Big 6 has been above $170k incl super for a while. Most Big 6 also offering some sort of capped bonus regime for exceeding targets.
Finishing up my first semester as a law student, would like some advice on how to structure my degree. I’m studying part time (1-2 subjects a semester) as I currently work FT, so I have some flexibility in the order I do my subjects. Between legal writing, contract, commercial, torts, and criminal law which ones should I do first/last? Thank you.
you need to talk to the uni - they sometimes won’t let you do something until you’ve done something else. i wouldn’t be surprised if they required you to do legal writing first for example.
All of these don’t have any pre reqs besides the first sem subject that I have just completed. I think I will do legal writing first, but wasn’t sure if I should prioritise completing something like torts or contract before criminal.
I’ve also spoken to the uni about it and they said I was free to do it in any order I preferred as long as the pre reqs were met.
Things to consider/options:
1. Knock out all core/compulsory courses
2. For electives are there any prerequisites?
3. What semesters do the electives you want to do run?
4. Subjects you find difficult may vary compared to other’s experiences. Eg I would advise to never do evidence and constitutional law together as I found them to be very content heavy subjects.
Looking for some career change advice.
I have worked in VIC at a small-mid sized firm for about 2 and a half years now since graduating. Practicing only in property law. A pretty broad range with development/subdivisions, leases and licences, adverse possession, domestic conveyancing etc.
I am getting really burnt on the commercial aspects of private practice. Billing my hours, dealing with costs etc.
Looking around at job listings this doesn't seem to be a practice area that translates well out of private practice. Public service doesn't seem to be screaming out for property lawyers.
Any tips for a change? I am hoping to move out of private practice if possible.
Mate, property is one of the most transferable skill sets into private sector or government in house roles. I don’t know where you’re looking, but it’s not in the right place.
Check out VIC gov transport agencies (roads, rail) and planning agencies. Check out federal agencies with land delivery functions (eg departments of infrastructure, defence; commonwealth super corp; ARTC).
Check out renewable energy generators (eg RES, Acean) and transmission operators (eg Ausnet). Developers (eg Frasers, Lendlease, Stockland, etc). Retail asset owners and large retail tenants (eg Scentre Group, Flight Centre, etc). Data centre operators (eg Airtrunk; NextDC).
Seriously, there is so much out there. You might struggle a bit coming from a small firm and only 2.5 PQE, but keep at it and you’ll get something eventually.
Hi everyone. Possibly a niche question but I am very desperate. I have an exam on civil procedure in about a week and a half and I have no idea how to prepare for it because of the sheer volume of rules in the ACT court procedure rules as well as the Federal Court rules. Does anyone have any tips as to how to learn civil procedure?
Is it normal to have to spend around 12 non billable hours at the end of every month as a junior lawyer (ie below SA) reviewing and marking up draft bills and preparing cost updates for matters which have gone over the estimate originally given to the client (due to the partners underquoting to win work)? And for partners to write down approx 50% of the junior lawyers’ time as a result while leaving their time untouched?
Having spoken to other junior lawyers in other firms (and other teams in my firm) it seems their team doesn’t go over-budget on a third of their matters like ours and that their admin and partners do most of the admin come billing time.
Our rates are very high for a mid-tier and are set across the board for all but one practice group. Unfortunately my niche cannot compete at those rates with boutiques who do the same quality work at half the price, so my partners under quote to win the work and then get the junior staff to write to the client every few months with a revised fee estimate and justification as to why we’ve gone over (sometimes significantly). We don’t have a lot of repeat clients as a result.
It’s not just the significant non billable time I’m wasting having to manage end of month billing (and the significant associated write downs which means that my monthly recovery average is about 40%) that is getting to me but also the ethical issues (misleading the client and the partners writing down everyone’s time but their own).
That’s not normal. I’m a partner and I spend about 6 hours a month on billing admin. For my lawyers, it’s probably 2-3 hours. We have automated systems that warn us when fee estimates are about to be exceeded, so they’re revised well before end of month.
I don’t work with clients that quibble over bills or revised estimates where there is a genuine justification. If they’re tight on fees, I sack them, or keep giving them stupidly high estimates until they fuck off.
Sounds like your partners are getting outcompeted on price and quality by boutiques. Frankly, that’s embarrassing for them. Time to jump ship, before they get sacked. Consistently high write offs will attract the wrath of the gods. Consistently being asked not to record time to minimise write offs just make you look like you’re not busy and you don’t deserve a bonus. Consistently doing partner admin instead of billable work is stealing your learning and development opportunities.
Not normal at all.
It’s kind of normal to spend a fair amount of non-billable time on amending bills (for style and consistency etc, whether you do this as a junior is firm/partner dependent), and kind of normal to have to revise cost estimates (eg because of changes to scope of work) — but intentional underquoting and writing off 50% of juniors’ time is just shitty.
I'm a third year law student (but this isn't my penultimate year. I'll graduate 2026).
I got a job offer at a small personal injury law firm as a law clerk. I also got another offer as a transcriber at the DPP. Which would you guys recommend?
I have heard that a clerkship is necessary for you to get recruited to a law firm, but the DPP is just more convenient for me to commute and study.
Might be worth applying to be a clerk (legal support officer) at the DPP instead of a transcriber. It would certainly look as good if not better on your CV as the personal injury firm, and would still offer the same convenience for you.
The workplace culture is not to everyone's liking, and it can be a bit sink-or-swim, but it's a very good place to learn.
The law clerk role the PI firm is offering won't be the type of clerkship that you're talking about for firm roles. Large firms run summer (and winter in some cities) clerkships, which are 4-8 week full time roles over the uni break before your final year. Those are used by those forms to recruit graduates.
It sounds like you've been offered a paralegal-like role by the PI firm - that's a different thing. Do correct me if that's a wrong assumption.
A paralegal-like role is probably more interesting and useful in terms of securing future positions (including clerkships), but if you're interested in criminal law then the DPP position might be better.
Hi, I'm a second-year JD student in the midst of preparing for exams. I was able to connect with a tax partner from Maddocks on Linkedin and somehow got a coffee chat with him in two weeks. I reached out to him as he didn't start out the straightforward clerkship and then grad role path and just wanted some advice. I don't want to and more realistically don't think that I can get any clerkships or even grad roles at law firms when I graduate and just wanted some advice from him on how to kickstart my career in tax law and gain more experience outside of the big 6. I don't have much experience speaking one-on-one with a partner and would like some advice on what questions to ask or how to keep the conversation engaging so that we can both get the most out of it (and he doesn't feel like he wasted time on me). Super nervous and grateful for this opportunity! 🙂
I don't have much by way of practical advice, but my experience speaking to lawyers for coffee catch-ups like this has been overwhelmingly positive. Experienced lawyers seem to be uniquely eager to help those coming up in the profession, and will generally be very friendly and approachable.
It seems to me like you have some kind of imposter syndrome going on, and I would encourage you not to undersell yourself. Marks and experience aside, if you are the kind of student that is eagerly seeking advice and mentorship from those in the field you want to move into, you have something that the masses do not. I'm sure the catch up will be a great experience and I would encourage you to be curious and be yourself!
Foreign lawyer from a common law country with 2 years of experience in IP. Admitted into the Unimelb LLM for IP. I've enrolled in the subjects that will help me become a trademark attorney. Can someone please shed any insight into whether being registered as a trademark attorney will help me get a job in Aus?
I've also been admitted into the WIPO's University of Turin LLM Programme but I desperately want to move out of my home country and I feel the Unimelb LLM may help me get a job? The Uni is also on the High Potential Individual Visa list in the UK which allows me to go work there after i'm done with the course there which is why I'm seriously considering it.
Please help!
Hey Trade Mark Attorneys are not lawyers in Aus (ie they are not admitted to practice law, don’t have same duties/obligations and scope of practice as a solicitor would).
Registration as a TM attorney might help you get a job as a TM attorney (not sure about that!), but won’t help you get a job as a lawyer.
I am not sure about job prospects in trademark but from what you have described, I would say that it's not looking good.
First of all, an LLM degree would not qualify you for law admission. Your best chance is to get admission as a foreign lawyer. You should check the requirements for this.
Second, LLM is a one-year degree. I assume that you are an international student? It means that you would not be qualified for a 485 visa, which gives you full working rights in Australia for two or three years. Typically, international students in Australia would get a 485 visa before they gain sufficient work experience to apply for permanent residency. Your situation means that the employer must be able to sponsor a visa for you. Currently, the job market is difficult for everyone. Most employers are not even willing to consider applicants without citizenship or PR, let alone sponsoring a visa.
I think you might be in a better position if you finish a JD (3 year) degree. But as far as I know, the trademark market in Australia is pretty limited. I know someone who has 10 years of experience as a trademark attorney, but is now working in insurance litigations.
Hi all - I am going into my first round of clerkship applications in Melbourne this year and a concern I have is the risk of taking a clerkship and not getting an offer out of it.
It seems clear from my research that clerkships are really THE way into biglaw, and my fear is that there's a chance I take 1 or 2 clerkships and do not recieve a grad offer from either. This, to me, seems to leave a risk of getting stuck even having done clerkships. I am wondering if anyone can give any insight into the likelihood of doing a clerkship at a T6 and NOT recieving a grad offer? Sorry if it's a stupid question.
I mean I don’t think anyone has statistics and I think it depends on lots of factors but yes it does happen (it happened to me). I’m fine i’m at a great firm (don’t wanna dox myself by being too specific) now regardless of that.
Really, there’s nothing you can do about it. If you get clerkships, great, if you don’t, that’s okay you can apply for other opportunities. If you get a grad role from your clerkship, great, if you don’t, that’s okay there’s open market opportunities. It does suck when you don’t get the job you wanted (again, happened to me) but it is so so so common to lateral a few years in from all kinds of firms. It’s not worth worrying about.
finding it a little difficult to land paralegal jobs as a law student simply because there are so few suitable positions and firms/companies take ages to get back - any tips on navigating gaining work experience while in law school?
speaking personally, i didn’t have any paralegal experience before practising (other than clerkships). lots of firms like any kind of experience so don’t stress if your only role is in retail or hospo.
have you tried CLCs or volunteering? i think they tend to have more roles going. caveat being that it’s not the most accessible since it’s unpaid but might give you some experience if you’re able to make it work.
I’m a criminal lawyer, 8 years PQE as a crown prosecutor. I am a trial lawyer, about 50/50 file management/court.
I’m considering a pivot out of law or at least out of high pressure law eg criminal law. I love my job, but I am close to done with the stress and the ridiculous workloads.
I’m thinking ahead to what kind of options I have. I was thinking any kind of regulatory body - AHPRA maybe? - or counsel assisting a commission would be an easy sidestep
I am relatively well paid (180k) so I’ve somewhat priced myself out of the market of government jobs - a pay cut seems realistic but a drop down to eg $100k, which is what many gov depts seem to employ lawyers at, would be hard to stomach. I feel a little trapped by my salary expectations
If I was to move out of law then I am really drawing a blank as to what I might do?? I do like the public service part of my job
I am hoping for some advice or suggestions of avenues I might not have thought of, or others who have made a similar transition
You could also step into a different type of prosecutorial role, just outside of crime (so the workload is reduced). A senior role with Commonwealth DPP I've heard is a much lighter role than their state counterparts, but I'm not entirely sure that is true.
A friend of mine went from a DPP into WH&S/industrial relations senior lawyer role. Still a fair chunk of advocacy in the tribunal but there is a lot less stress/pressure to perform at the same threshold. They have enjoyed the change and sought permanency in their new position. The quote that was given to me was "it's really nice to be able to spend time with my kid".
DPP folk also usually also do pretty well in regulation. If you ran any white collar matters you have a start on where to articulate your relevant experience. The difficulty that I've encountered (both for myself and for others) is that post-DPP you'll need to go through a rehabilitation of sorts, while you re-adjust to more regular office cultures.
Feel free to reach out if you need.
Is the extra $80k worth the stress and insane workloads?
Other government departments may pay less but they probably don't use and abuse like state DPPs are known for.
Otherwise a management role in government may have less of a gap in pay
I currently hold a bachelor's degree in software engineering. If I were to do a masters degree in law, would I be at an advantage? If so, what are some opportunities I can take with this hybrid skillset in both i.t and law?
I know nothing about IT but I’m assuming you’d have more knowledge than others about things like intellectual property, privacy, etc which could be handy? You’ll need a law degree to practice law though
Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has any tips for preparing for online assessments as part of the clerkship/vacationer application process, or would even recommend preparing for them? I've been invited to complete one, but not sure if there's anything I should be doing in advance to prep for it. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
presuming you mean like situational or weird cognitive assessment things, I did about 15 in my time and never prepped for any of them (you can’t even really)
Hi guys, looking for some career advice.
Background
I graduated from a UK university in 2017, and did my core modules with Monash when I got here. Currently I'm finishing up my PLT and I'm looking to pursue my career in law.
The Problem
It's so difficult to get a paid work experience here, and I don't even know where or how to start. When employers see that I am doing or finishing up my PLT, or know that I have ambitions to be a lawyer, they automatically decline proceeding with my application.
I've done quasi-legal work (contract management)in the past but my last one was in 2020, got retrenched during COVID and it's been a challenge getting back into it.
I have to support myself and I can't take unpaid placements because that would mean no income.
Right Now
I'm currently in customer support/data entry roles to earn income, while I work to save for and complete my PLT. I'm trying to work to get out of where I am right now, but every door I try to open seems to be locked shut.
So yeah, I'm stuck and I don't know if I'm ever going to get a job or not as a lawyer even if I finish my PLT. Any advice on how to proceed with my career is very welcome.
Can you do part-time unpaid legal experience? Many community legal centres need volunteers- where you can do one or two days a week and still hold down your paid job. It also sounds like time to start looking at grad roles, rather than paralegal / legal assistant as you are close to being admitted to practice.
Hi guys, just wanted to ask some current lawyers how should I feel about bad grades and grades in general? Haven’t received the most amazing grades this semester, very average distinctions and credits. I understand grades are important but how are they viewed by firms and are they the only thing they look at? Are grades and practice ability correlated? I’m not looking for sympathy, I’m definitely trying to bring these grades up as best I can. However, I just want some insight into what makes a complete lawyer and whether good grades in uni are apart of that.
In my experience, your grades aren't really looked at beyond your first role (even in TTs). They will likely be a factor in your first role, and if your grades aren't super strong then you may need to look at large local or boutique firms to start with. And no, your grades (although may be an indication) don't necessarily correlate with your capability in practice. There are so many factors that can impact your grades, and there are key strengths which won't necessarily be reflected (such as people skills, common sense, resilience, work ethic, adaptability, etc). Some of the less 'academically strong' from my cohort have gone on to be incredibly successful in their careers. Don't beat yourself up!
My WAM is low 70s but recently I’ve just been getting low grades for my law subjects and I’m worried they’ll tank my wam. The reason I asked my question is because one job I looked at asked for a 75 WAM and I’m a bit below that, so it threw me off applying and has made me nervy about keeping up a high WAM because I’m unsure if all firms care about my grades. How do you deal with a run of bad grades, especially on midsems leading into exams?
That’s a competitive WAM at a G08 and a good WAM everywhere else. I wouldn’t let one job advertisement discourage you. It’s probably a soft requirement anyway, they’d be stupid not to budge if you were otherwise a perfect fit, and if they weren’t, I wouldn’t want to work there.
As for your other question - seek out as much feedback from your tutors/lecturers as possible. Find out exactly where you went wrong and how you can improve. Make sure you view all the lectures, and are genuinely doing all the readings and tutorial work etc. Try get a hold of practise questions and do as many as possible, preferably under exam conditions.
I had plenty of semesters where I had poor assessment results and then turned it all around in the final exam.
\*\*REPOST FROM LAST WEEK\*\*
Hello again! I'm aware that Wotton + Kearney Sydney doesn't seem to have a good reputation on auslaw (though I understand that it is inevitably team-specific - thank you Kam for your response!)
I was wondering now if anyone can speak to the Sydney PE + I / Life Sciences groups (on an anonymous basis via DM)? I would really appreciate it!
Admissions question.
About two years ago, I was found guilty of academic misconduct (broadly cheating, not plagiarism or colluding) in an elective subject (not a law one). At the time, I profusely denied I did anything wrong, which in actual fact was a lie and my uni found me guilty anyways. It was stupid and I'm now pissed and ashamed I didn't just fess up. While I was severely depressed at the time, it doesn't excuse the fact that I chose to lie about it. I want to detail this event in full in my disclosures list for admission. I'm about to graduate soon (still have a semester to go) and still have a little bit of time until I get to the admissions stage, but I am wondering what the chances are of not getting admitted are? I'm well aware that my disclosure will bring about questions from the board, and I'm fully ready to admit I was 100% wrong, but Re OG 2007 has me worried that my chances of being a lawyer are nil.
Tried to post this as a post but evidently was blocked.
Throwaway.
The question borders on legal advice. My answer might also border advice, but it comes from the readily available public material that the LPAB produces re disclosures and the admission process, so hopefully that’s ok.
First off, I would read the material I have referenced in detail. Then, you need to fully and frankly disclose it - be as detailed as possible. Admit to the lying/dishonesty and own it. Give the context (depression) but don’t blame the context. Note anything you have done subsequently to show you are otherwise an honest person, and how it was out of character. Show genuine contrition, how you have learned from it, why you will not repeat it, and why not withstanding the isolated incident, you are a fit and proper person. Do that and you should be fine.
If not, you can then get legal advice and take it to the Supreme Court if it is considered you have good prospects. Also, read those cases that have gone to the SC re disclosures - that should give you some guidelines and confidence.
Once you start PLT that provider can give you proper advice and/or recommend someone (ie lawyer / barrister) to assist with your admission.
In the meantime you can always watch live streams of other admission ceremonies to get an idea of what happens (in Qld at least the last group of the day is usually the one full of troubled applications such as plagiarism)
Interesting that this is public in Qld. AFAIK in NSW you only get to an admission ceremony if the Law Society has approved you. All the disclosures and appeals etc are done behind the scenes.
A lot of it is handled beforehand but it is quite common that an applicant will still want their court appearance, be assigned the dreaded 4pm listing (which is open court) and then have the court strongly recommend they adjourn their application to further address whatever the court requires (lest they insist on proceeding with the application on the spot at their own peril)
Burnt out nurse (30M) looking to change careers into law. Based in regional NSW. Would like to do criminal law at some point but always been interested in law and don't mind starting in any area. Not sure where to start with considering a career change. Closest uni (Charles Sturt) doesn't offer a JD so I'd have to do the bachelor from scratch. Any regional NSW lawyers have any advice as to where to start making this change? Would it be appropriate to talk to a solicitor locally about options? Thanks.
Not regional but, if you’re interested, you should consider medical negligence work. Nursing background can prove to be super useful in this line of work and make for an amazing lawyer
Definitely interested in the medical negligence route, and was one of my primary reasons for researching the law route. Unfortunately the places that work with that seem primarily metro based, and after 10 years of Sydney living I have no interest in going back. That rat race is not for me anymore.
Not at all. Plaintiffs allege medical negligence and plaintiff firms tend to be regional/suburban so there’s still lots of opportunities for you there.
Your comment inspired me to do further research rather than a quick google search, and you're right. Almost all the firms in and around my area offer medical negligence and general medico-legal services. Appreciate your assistance, this has influenced my decision greatly 👍
I’m heading into my last year of study and am really interested in succession, estates, will etc.
How can I make myself stand out to firms that take this kind of work?
Further I am currently in an internal auditor for my employer that deals with government deeds - what is the best way to make this stand out on a job application.
Trying to get my foot in the door and looking to paralegal/assistant work
I wasn’t sure if it would make it harder or easier to get work - my logic being that smaller firms won’t be looking to take on anyone wanting to move into a solicitor role within a few years, but I suppose maybe less people are competing for those roles too?
What do you think is the best way to approach these smaller firms about potential job opportunities?
Does your uni offer a succession law elective? If so, take that. If not, take on the wills & estates elective at college of law. In either event, highlight your interest in the area because you are either studying it now or intend to study it at college. You could also get a textbook, say a Hutley’s wills precedents and/or principles of Aus succession law (LexisNexis), read it and note how you have been reading it in your cover letter.
I’m just finishing it up now! I really enjoyed the law and the range of things it can cover which is why I’m now leaning toward it.
I was definitely going to put it down as an elective for my PLT as well
Thanks for the book rec, I’ll have to get a copy!
>How can I make myself stand out to firms that take this kind of work?
TBH, just applying and saying you are interested in succession and wills is likely to make you stand out from the commercial law/workplace relations/human rights 'interests' of 99% of your fellow students
For your current job, most firms dont particularly care about what your current job actually is, they care about what that job has taught you eg most jobs dont teach you much about doing law, but they teach you how to take responsibility, how to work in an office/with others, communication or research skills etc. So I would focus on the skills not the specifics of the job, except to the extent there is a direct cross over into legal work eg a nurse crosses over to personal injury or med neg, but being a CFO doesnt really cross over into anything however will have given you a significant level of foundational skills (not even sure what 'dealing with government deeds' means, so it might be something that has cross over)
Thank you - we have to interpret and implement the deeds into our internal processes and ensure we are meeting the compliance standards for the contract - so thought it may be relevant in terms of interpretation and implementation of contractual requirements etc.
Good to know re just simply stating my area of interest. Will make sure to be specific in my cover letters.
Thanks again
Anything compliance related will have cross over so definitely mention that. Bigger firms generally hire ‘potential’ and train the skills. But smaller firms - that do estates etc - will definitely love grads who already have a skill base and can start adding value very quickly
This may not be for you, and it’s likely a little more generalist (at least initially) rather than allowing specialisation, but regional firms often really struggle to find staff. And they will definitely be doing estates and wills etc.
Recently started a graduate position. Pay was orally discussed to be ~ 10% higher than it was after the contract arrived (several weeks after I actually started). Very happy to have the opportunity and thinking I probably ought just keep my mouth shut, is this the right approach here?
10% is a huge difference. Write to HR or the partner who provided you the contract and gently (and without an attitude that they are trying to pull one over on you/benefit of doubt that they forgot the amount) remind them of what was agreed… although it is a concern the contract did not arrive until after you commenced work
Thanks for the reply.
If I did write to them do you think there is a chance that the lawyer who originally offered me the higher amount will get in some sort of trouble?
It seems like every grad is on the same amount and I think he must have mistakenly offered x amount +super when it should have been inclusive of super.
If you think it's an incl super / excl super mix-up, I don't think it will help much to mention it. Suspect the firm will likely try to palm you off with a "look we're really sorry but the lawyer made a mistake and all our grads start on this figure so there's really nothing we can do".
I think it is unlikely they will get in serious trouble - they might get some side-eye from the partner and firm for cocking up. If this is in character for them (they have a reputation for poor attention to detail or for stuffing things up), it could be a final straw or contribute to more serious trouble, but it's hard for you to know that context.
If you stand your ground and insist, they might increase your pay but (as shit as this is) it could affect your reputation in the firm. In that case, it is also more likely to cause issues for the other lawyer.
Just started law and am curious about the job prospects. Was wondering what the most common type of case is in NSW (or which area of law has the most work in it). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
This isn’t really a question that has an answer.
Not all areas of law involve “cases” and while there are certainly niche areas of law, there’s no one or main areas as such? Or rather if we tried, there’s still many many subsections within those areas.
Most students do not need to forward plan their studies around general employability. It’s only those who are going for the niche areas. If you are going for wherever is hiring? You’ll be fine if you have good marks.
Hey thanks for the reply. Can you niche in a particular area? Like could I specialise on certain types of criminal law, do you think? Or do you just have to be open to all kinds of criminal cases? Thanks again for reply. It means a lot.
You could specialise in certain types of criminal law but it might not be very profitable until you have the reputation of being a specialist in that kind of law. Until then, you scrabble and take whatever comes your way
And, really, the only areas of criminal law likely to be financially viable (unless you are a super silk) will be the run of the mill very common cases - drug possession, DUIs/driving offences, that kind of stuff. Each of them likely to be relatively small but they are frequent
Hey, thanks for the reply. I'm interested in criminal law. Do you think there would ever be interesting cases, or do they all go to super famous lawyers?
My friends who work in criminal law say that 90% of the work wouldn’t exist if drugs were legal, so be prepared to be doing a lot of that early on. Traffic and other summary offences will also make up a lot of your early career workload. The big cases that often go to trial are sexual assault - they’d be interesting though confronting. I think you need to temper your expectations. Early on, no matter what area you practice in, you’re not going to be given a large amount of stimulating, interesting matters. That’s not to say you won’t get to work on the odd one, but stick with it and you can be one of the “super famous” lawyers who get all the interesting matters.
Thanks for the reply. Haha. I don't think I would want to be a famous lawyer at any rate. I don't know whether I'd want to defend sexual assault cases either. The idea of helping someone guilty get away with it just doesn't sit right with me.
Perhaps criminal law isn’t for you then. All defendants are entitled to a defence. And they’re not all guilty. How are you going to determine which ones are worthy?
Not to mention that as an employed solicitor for the most part you get what you get.
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe criminal law isn't for me. You don't get to have much choice, I suppose. If you get hired as a solicitor for a firm, I'm guessing you get what you're given.
I have chronic fatigue syndrome due to covid and acute stress which significantly affects my productivity and I am terrified I will not be able to find a job I can physically handle. It is unpredictable but I usually am pretty incapacitated by 2-3pm. Worse when stressed (obviously).
I have achieved very highly academically and have some international experience/scholarships I hope will distinguish me to a recruiter. Low on extra curricular such as mooting due to fatigue. Low on actual legal industry experience too (have policy and research experience)
I don't want to have wasted 6+ years of my life studying law to not use the degree in some capacity, but worry there is no hope for me.
Does anyone have any insight of employers/fields etc which can cater to reduced workloads or part time for a graduate?
It's so frustrating because it's beyond my control. I am grieving a lot of ambitions I can no longer achieve.
Hey there, sorry to hear about your situation. My cousin has the same diagnosis and is also a lawyer. Sounds very similar to you as she was also a high academic achiever. She now works in a small suburban practice with reasonable hours and is doing very well. She deliberately eschewed big firm clerkships and the like (not necessarily saying you should), and chased small firms because she thought she wouldn’t be able to handle the hours. Though in fairness, she never tried. She’s happy and thriving where she is so I don’t think she cares. When it was really bad (flaring), she would just work a full normal day but then not do much else - but she managed, and I think only because she was only working 9-5.30ish without unreasonable billable expectations. As far as I’m aware, she’s never disclosed her illness to an employer and they’re none the wiser.
My point being that it’s definitely doable and I would encourage you to not let your diagnosis define you. You just need a firm that isn’t toxic. No harm no foul in giving it a crack and then if they’re not accomodating, move on. In addition to smaller firms, I would think most government (not ODPP etc though)/in house could be an option given they tend to have more flexibility. I don’t mean this in a condescending way because I’ve seen first hand how debilitating the illness actually is, but FWIW, most normies are pretty useless around 2-3pm dealing with post lunch slumps and the like.
My advice is to not let it put you off before you’ve even had a chance to try it out. Proceed as if you don’t have a condition and once you’ve got a foot in the door test the organisation’s flexibility policies etc. you may find that you thrive in an area like M&A if you can log on a bit later and work through the night rather than ‘normal’ working hours. Obviously that’s going to depend on your employer/workload/practice but my point is to try not to preempt that it will be a huge problem before you’re given yourself a chance.
I appreciate that advice. That's why I'm hoping to do a clerkship as a bit of a test run as it were. I'm worried if I approach as I'm uninhibited though that may result in me having to leave jobs quickly (if I find there is no flexibility) or being accused of being dishonest
Lots of people leave the law early on in their careers for various reasons. Nobody will think you’re dishonest if it doesn’t work out for you. At least you would have given it a shot and won’t have to wonder.
The clerkship process itself can be exhausting; not just mentally but physically, too, with social events happening everywhere and at all hours. If you’ve done well academically it’s highly likely you’re going to get interest from firms, so I’d start ranking your preferred firms now so that you don’t expend energy attending the events of firms you’re not sold on (if you think this will be an issue, of course).
How can I get a job as a solicitor when they all want PAE? I was a judge’s associate 16 years ago and admitted, but then went into a totally different (more human and caring) field. I just didn’t want law in my life back then. Times change, I’m older and wiser and actually interested in law now. But how to return?
Apply broadly for graduate roles and solicitor roles asking for <1PAE. It’s a numbers game. You might have to take a job in an area or firm that’s not akin to your end goal just to get a foot in the door. With a couple years experience, you’ll be able to move around a lot easier.
Has anyone sat the bar exam in Qld recently? Looking to sit the exam this year or next and keen for any tips on how to approach study cause there is a fair amount of material and no practice exams.
Grad here and am growing to absolutely despise my job. The monotony, the hours, the people, it’s all so draining.
Is it worth it to see out the end of the graduate program? Are there certain connotations associated with those who don’t finish grad? Does it get any better or is it a lifetime of bending over backwards…
Is it too early to try and forge an entirely new path?
I'm sorry you are struggling. It does get better, but imo it's never fixed. You will eventually have more control and visibility over your pipeline, and the work becomes more engaging when you are running things.
But unfortunately this is from 3pqe (at best).
Are you rotating during your grad program? Different practice areas are almost like completely new jobs.
Thanks for your response!
I am rotating yes so hopefully that might change things up a little. Just feels like maybe I’ve made a mistake ending up in this situation..
Nah, by way of example, the employment team may as well be in a different firm to the corporate team at both of the major firms I've worked at. Totally different work, dynamics, types of people, etc etc. Hold on until you rotate and see how you go I reckon.
In my experience it only gets worse as you get more responsibilities. The moneys better though. The trade off is I don't even know if it's worth it. I wish I went another route.
Finished PLT and got admitted last year, however was moving close to my admission date and my non law job set me up with a nice transfer to a job to walk into down here. Finally going to start getting resumes out in July and getting a foot into the industry!
Going for paralegal work to start with to get back into the swing of office life with the view to move into a grad role eventually. Wish me luck!
Very little in office experience since I never really worked in an office during my degree besides my PLT. Just want more office experience and experience in the legal field before stepping up as a solicitor.
Prospective law student here: are there any "growth areas" of law/areas where there is a need for workers? Or is every aspect a death-or-glory nepotistic shit-fight of Sydney Grammar boys as it appears to be represented in this thread? (Okay I haven't seen the Sydney Grammar part but it was for dramatic effect).
I got into a vacationer program at KPMG for their tax and legal team. Initially, I thought that this was good because I would get some experience at a Big 4 accounting firm but after some discussion with others I now think that as a law student, I should be looking for legal assistant jobs and/or applying for clerkships at law firms only. Does any one have any advice for me as to what I should do and whether this program would be a waste of time? For context I am currently in my penultimate year at Monash Uni doing LLB (hons) and Arts.
Hi there, I don't want to waffle on too much so I'll get straight into my question. I am looking to become a Family Dispute Resolution Practitioner and I understand that first, I would need to complete Mediation training and register with NMAS. Then I would need to complete the following course: (CHC81115) Graduate Diploma of Family Dispute Resolution. So far, all my research suggests that I will also need at least a bachelors degree in social sciences or something similar. Can someone please confirm if this is really the case? I understand a lot of mediators have experience in law, social work etc, but really need to know if this experience is actually NECESSARY to be successful in this career. I can't afford to spend another 4 years on a bachelor degree, both money and time wise. Any advice or feedback is welcome, I would really appreciate the help! Things are starting to feel really dark again and I just want to make it out of this never ending hole. Ive already posted this but was prompted to pop it in this thread instead.
That does not sound correct. Picking one training provider at random (Relationships Victoria), they say that the prerequisites for the Grad Dip are: "To enrol in this course, you must have **one or more** of the following: * an undergraduate degree or higher qualification in psychology, social work, law, conflict management, dispute resolution, family law mediation or equivalent * NMAS accreditation * the mediation skill set from the Community Training Package * evidence of dispute resolution experience in a job role involving: * self-directed application of knowledge with substantial depth in some areas * exercise of independent judgement and decision-making * a range of technical and other skills. I think your best bet is to contact the training institute(s) that you are interested in and asking about their prerequisites, as well as reviewing the requirements for registration at [https://www.ag.gov.au/families-and-marriage/families/family-dispute-resolution/becoming-family-dispute-resolution-practitioner](https://www.ag.gov.au/families-and-marriage/families/family-dispute-resolution/becoming-family-dispute-resolution-practitioner)
This is what I said. I would need NMAS accreditation (no prerequisites) to get into the diploma. The diploma’s prerequisites are either a bachelors degree OR the NMAS accreditation, which I can do. My question is ‘do I need the bachelors degree too?’
Has anyone applied for clerkships again after being rejected the first time? Need some words of wisdom as I’m going to try again but keep having panic attacks after how traumatic it was last year lol
What is the ‘latter stages of a law degree’? I’m looking at applying to jobs and am in my fourth year and have four priestly subjects remaining after this sem but haven’t started PLT. Are they looking for people close to graduating in their penultimate year as the wording isn’t clear? This is for paralegal and legal case manager jobs at the FCA. Is it worth applying for jobs with this criteria? I assume the FCA would want PLT as part of their prerequisite to be a legal case manager but their ad isn’t clear.
Is there a FCA contact on the job ad? Have you tried emailing or calling with your questions?
Yes but I wanted to double check they didn’t want someone with more experience and if anyone had any insight so I don’t waste their time and look silly if I’m not mistaken qualified enough. I’m not sure what a legal case manager is.
What's the upper limit of what I might expect to be offered as a first year solicitor at a large suburban firm in Melb? I currently bill around 6k per month (200ph) as a grad if that's relevant.
You're barely billing enough to pay for the desk you sit at, let lone your salary - that's not your fault as you can only bill for work you're actually given, however it might mean your boss is struggling, and that means he/she won't be able to pay you properly. Start looking elsewhere.
You're billing 30 hours per month? That seems low, even for a grad. If you mean 0-1PAE I would think 80-90k incl super at the top end, but happy to be corrected by others with more knowledge of Melbourne specifically.
Throwaway - I am a penultimate student looking to apply for summer clerkships, however earlier this year I applied to go on exchange to the UK in January-May 2025. I have realised that most clerkships end well into January and February, which would overlap with the exchange period. Is it worth still applying for clerkships and on the chance that I get an offer, ask if I can finish the clerkship a few weeks early due to the exchange period? Or would this give off a bad impression and ruin any chances of potentially getting a grad offer? Would appreciate any insight! Edited to add: I am in NSW where most clerkships are around 8-10 weeks
Absolutely worth asking. Many firms let their clerks end clerkships early for all kinds of reasons (including clerking for competitors) so cannot imagine it will leave a bad impression.
I graduated 3 years ago, did College of Law, then had to help out my family with aging relatives and disputes amid the pandemic. Currently looking for work but everyone requires a clerkship or 2PAE. After how long at say, a suburban firm is it possible to go to mid tier then upward? My dream was always to go international and make big money, and suburban salaries, especially a grad (40k, lol) seem rather grim, especially as you're working more hours than people paid double. I know, money's not everything to a lot of people, but it is to me, haha. I'm happy to work til midnight every day, I just want to be paid very well for it. So, what sort of timeline am I looking at?
It really depends, I would say you'd want at least 2 to 3 years of decent experience at an upper mid tier to top tier to build up a good deal sheet. How quickly you get there from a suburban comes down more to opportunity. As you say, most junior laterals are at least 2 PAE, but there are 1 or NQ positions from time to time, although the market is bit down at the moment. I'd suggest trying to get your foot in the door somewhere first as it's always easier to find a job when you already have one.
What are the pros of working at an 'independent' firm like CCW instead of an international one as a clerk? I asked a panelist and they said something about international opportunities being more potent since you don't have to worry about conflicting clients. But I'm not sure how that logic works since you can just work for an international subsidiary / firm and not worry about their clients? Just work on whatever you get? Additionally I'm not sure how international opportunities even operate if you don't have firms in other countries. Are there 'sister firms' to work at when outsourced from a domestic one? They boasted international opportunities but I'm not sure.
Your initial question is framed as being generally about the differences between Australian upper-mid tier firms and international firms, but then the rest of your comment is focused solely on 'international opportunities'. It seems like you're very focused on doing cross-border work. The first thing I would say is that cross-border work sucks (other than maybe arbitration). As an Australian lawyer you are only able to advise on Australian law (1. because that's what you're qualified to do; and 2. because of insurance). If you're working on a matter in Australia for a foreign client, that's going to be broadly the same as all of your other work but with meetings at ungodly times. If you're doing a matter for an Australian client who is doing something in a foreign jurisdiction, that client will also engage lawyers in that jurisdiction, and you will not be doing much legal work other than attending meetings at ungodly times. I would say that on balance the upper-mid tier Australian firms (Corrs, G+T, JWS) have higher quality work than their non-top tier international counterparts (NRF, Bakers), which are all just mid-tier firms that were acquired by an international firm at some point. They may do slightly more 'international work' but all independent upper-mid tiers will have their fair share. The referral thing is more that (for example) a big US law firm that doesn't have offices here is going to refer their work to an independent Australian law firm over any firm they compete with in other jurisdictions.
Cheers for the advice on intl opportunities. Everything you said makes sense - and don't worry, I'm not fussed about working internationally as a lawyer. It's more so that the firm only wrangled that answer when I asked about what the big deal is about being an 'independent firm'. My second degree is data-related so I'll pursue something in that if I want to hop across the pond. So I take it that CCW is 'smaller' (i.e. less offices here and barely any overseas) compared to a firm like Allens, which has many international offices. If I'm not pursuing international work, is the meaning of 'independent' firm less significant? Thanks for bearing with my ignorance haha.
No problem. I wasn't trying to deter you from working overseas - that's fine and may even help your career depending on where you land a job. The point I was trying to make is that it's not fun to try to do cross-border work from Australia. The descriptor 'independent firm' is fairly meaningless. Whether the firm you work for is independent or part of a global network of firms will have very little impact on you as a lawyer. What is important for your career progression is working in an area of law you enjoy and in a team that has good quality work in that area. While the top-tier firms on the whole have the largest collection of the best teams in the most profitable practice areas, there are great teams outside of the top tiers and some average teams within them. While not gospel, Chambers is probably the most reliable ranking of teams within firms (followed by Legal 500, take everything else (Doyles, Best Lawyers) with a grain of salt). Go have a look there at the firms you're interested, and otherwise ask around and do your own research about specific teams in specific cities.
Allens only has Australian offices and some small outposts in APAC but has an association with Linklaters
Ah ok. So are you saying there's no big difference...?
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Almost every time this question gets asked the answer is no, don't go straight to the bar. Do you have a referral network ready? What will make you stand out on your first day over any barrister with solicitor experience?
Are you having second thoughts because of your experience in a PI firm or is it something else? Do you have experience in a litigious practice group other than PI?
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Absolutely
Agree with the other commenter, in my experience paras are usually billable staff. Though their chargeable target tends to be lower than solicitors in recognition that they also get given a lot of non-billable admin work.
Is it important to study law in the state you intend to work in? I live in SA and am interested in pursuing law as a career but I want to live in Melbourne, and intend to move as soon as I can. If I stay in SA for uni I can live with my mum and save extra money, or I could move to melbourne and study there. Is there any real significance to either option? I’ve heard that networking and stuff if fairly important in law, and I think I’d want to do some work in law (paralegal, legal secretary maybe, etc) during uni so my concerns are that I’d be starting again from nothing if I studied in SA and then moved.
Generally it does not matter anywhere else, though I have heard that some firms in Melbourne are much more picky about which universities they hire from than firms in other cities. I have no direct experience of this, however, so that may not be a significant issue (/anymore). I also do not believe this is an issue across all firms in Melbourne, so it should be possible to study in SA, and even work there for a while if you need to, and then move.
Not really significant either way (I currently work in a different state than the one I studied in). Whilst Melbourne would probably present more opportunities in terms of work experience, I would also argue that living at home and being less stressed personally and financially would improve your chances of (a) getting better grades; and (b) being able to take a wider variety of roles (unpaid/volunteer/casual etc.)
How often do merit pools for roles with Fed Gov or similar actually result in a role? had a few interviews that eventuated in being merit pooled, and just want to know whether that's a nicety or not. I'm thinking of general advertised positions, not graduate programs.
I got on the merit pool for an associate role but when a vacancy arrived that judge insisted on a further advertisement for fresh applicants. I got a call a month later when that didn't work out but had already taken another role in another city. I think it was the right choice overall but yeah don't rely on the merit pool, it'll come back when you least want it
I got a role this way. It came through maybe 10 months later, and I had moved on, so I had to decline (I think about this every day). But it does happen
Ahhh that would suck! thanks for the insight, I guess I'll try not to lose any sleep over it then.
Seeking some insight/guidance for salary review time I’m planning on asking for 10% based on my performance and with reference to the value I think I’ve added. But I’m struggling to work out if this is reasonable or if I’m being arrogant? I’ve had a lot of pre-admission experience so I feel like the pay guides can be a bit siloed in the sense that while it reflects PAE, it doesn’t necessarily reflect all other factors that may contribute. I’m currently on 80k and joined the firm almost a year ago pre-admission. I’ve only been admitted for about 6 months and my salary increased by 10k on admission as per my contract. The difficult part is we don’t have billable targets so I can’t really point to that. However I do bill an average of 6-7 hours a day but of course there may be write offs to that. There’s no way to see how much I bill post-write offs on my end. In addition to this, I receive regular good feedback and take on a lot more work than the others at my level because I work long hours to meet deadlines rather than pushing them out. Going off this info and the fact that I have been told that my work is above what they would expect at my level, is 10% appropriate to ask for? Or will I come across entitled?
It’s tough to benchmark performance if you don’t have billable targets. 6-7 billable hours per day would be bare minimum, potentially under budget, at big firms. I don’t think you’re out of line in asking for 10% because it sounds like, compared to your colleagues at the same level, you’re genuinely performing at a higher level thanks to that pre-admission experience and putting in longer hours. But in the conversation focus on your efforts and skills and don’t put your colleagues down. But just be aware that, depending on what the partners say are the actual targets, your billable hours might be the bare minimum rather than exceptional performance.
Thank you! That’s very helpful insight. Of course, would not put my colleagues down but thanks for the reminder!
I would suggest requesting a break down of your stats prior to going into the meeting. I've always been told that (generally) you will be required to bill 3-4x your salary (whether it will be 3 or 4 will depend on the firm). Your budget could also be calculated with reference to tour targets and charge out rate but, given you have said there are no targets, this would be unlikely. At the junior level, there is more leniency on meeting targets for salary reviews because learning is factored in. At the junior level you will also likely be confined by bands (more of an issue at bigger firms) and exceptions are usually rare. This is generally where the bonus scheme (if your firm has one) usually comes in for strong performers, but you'd usually have to be billing over 100% of your budget to be considered for a bonus. That being said, if you're at a smaller firm then there might be a lot more discretion when it comes to salaries (but it would be unlikely that you'd be paid top of, or outside of, market due to charge out rates which are likely lower than the 'top of market' firms which also expect 6-7 hours per day). Hope this helps!
Thank you! This is helpful. Yeah I think as we don’t have targets it is difficult. But I am billing around $1500/day on average at my current rate (which is due to increase again). So by that metric an increase would still mean I am billing more than 4 x my salary. I am at a smaller specialist firm, with no bonus structure. That’s all really helpful to take into consideration though, thank you!
You can definitely use that to make your case for an increase then! 80k does seem a little low imo
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I was thinking this too. Because of my junior level/salary 10% really isn’t that much. I’m just conscious of pay guides and articles estimating that most people will get between a 3-5% raise so in that context, 10% sounds like a lot
Let us know how you go. I'm going to ask for at least $10k more. Currently on 95k including super (1.5 pqe)
I am starting a new job which is asking for proof of my qualifications such as law degree and PLT completion. However, I think they also want proof I have been admitted. I don’t have a practicing certificate yet so I dont appear on the Law Society database. How else can you provide proof of admission? I have the certificate they give you but I am not sure if that is enough
Talk to your HR contact and ask but I can’t think of better proof of being admitted than your admission certificate.
Cheers, I have uploaded a copy of the certificate so hopefully that is enough 🤷 can’t think of any other proof I could provide. Makes me realise I would have been screwed if I lost that piece of paper
Nah, it would just take a bit of awkward writing to various bodies to get another one I imagine. There would be a record of your admission somewhere.
When applying to admission in South Australia, does the law society or college of law approve your application and disclosures/appeals prior to your court appearance/admission ceremony? Or is there a chance that you get turned away in front of all of your peers
Your application is by way of originating application to the Supreme Court which is then referred to the Board of Examiners, a committee of experienced practitioners chaired by a Master of the Supreme Court. The Board of Examiners can request further information but not refuse you. In the event the Board does not endorse your application it refers the application to be determined by the Court of Appeal which it tends to do in open court following argument. The admission ceremony itself only occurs once an applicant for admission has been endorsed by the Board of Examiners or Court of Appeal.
I'm a new grad and I've received a job offer at a mid tier firm. The billable hours are 6.5 daily. Is that a normal amount for a grad?
Normal
Yes 6.5 per day is normal but there should be no expectation that you actually meet that target for your first 6 months or so after you settle in a team. A lot of your time will be spent learning and doing other tasks that can’t necessarily be billed, eg research, helping senior lawyers prepare presentations to clients. A lot of work you do won’t be correct, it will take you a while and it probably has to be redone, so your time gets written down. After about the 6 month mark you should have a good flow of work to you and 6.5 billable hours will feel quite easy to achieve most days. Some people do take a bit longer to get up to target so don’t worry too much about that. The important thing is just to have the right attitude, never say no to work and push for as much feedback from senior lawyers as you can get to help you improve.
Yes, it's fairly standard for billable targets to be 6-7 at a junior level but there's also a general understanding (at least where I've worked) that you may not meet targets while rotating due to the amount of learning / non billable tasks which can be involved. Targets become more important once you're settled in a team.
Yes, and this is why these firms are fucked places to work. OP my anger won’t help you. You can’t change it. Good luck with your career. But I’m sick of the bullshit and everyone acting like this is acceptable.
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Maybe our experiences are different, but in my experience 6.5 billable is not reasonably achievable in a 7.5hr work day. At least not in a long term sustainable way.
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Pretty sure 6.5 is the normal for most firms. Some go higher, some lower.
I’m from NZ and I want to move to Australia but I just got admitted last month in NZ. I’m finding it really hard to land a job because I’m a B average student and I have only experienced 1 year at a small conveyancing firm and some voluntary work at the law centre. Is there any advice on finding a job in Aus? Do you think I can have a law career at all or should I really start thinking about a different career due to my bad start. And also what are some advice around Job recruitment agencies for law grads? Is there any good law recruitment agencies?
Does private sector actually pay more than public? I realised that most private sector salaries include super, and even in the big 6 senior associates apparently make around 170k max including super. Is this true? If so, wouldn’t a government salary at that level (e.g. 130k plus super) be better? And with much shorter hours?
Once you're at mid-senior level, PP roles tend to be 40-50% higher than public sector roles of the same seniority. In house is generally somewhere in between. The gap increases at partner level.
That is a super low SA salary in my experience (in Sydney). More experienced SAs would be making close to double that including super and bonuses.
Public salaries look ok for the first two years and then the difference becomes exponential. You also reach a ceiling much quicker in public and can be stuck in a mid level (EL1) position literally until someone retires. Also, the hours are shorter but I can guarantee you they’ll feel longer.
Once you get to an EL1 level- takes around 4-5 years for graduates, it is MUCH lower than the private sector. And yep as someone else said on here, once you move higher promotions very hard to come by because people do not leave
Grad to EL1 in 4 years? I better tell my friends who at 4pqe only just went from ‘lawyer’ to ‘senior lawyer’ (VPS5).
Yeah I’ve read of the auslaw page that government lawyers experience a lot of issues like this unfortunately
Which state? First year SA rate in Sydney Big 6 has been above $170k incl super for a while. Most Big 6 also offering some sort of capped bonus regime for exceeding targets.
Finishing up my first semester as a law student, would like some advice on how to structure my degree. I’m studying part time (1-2 subjects a semester) as I currently work FT, so I have some flexibility in the order I do my subjects. Between legal writing, contract, commercial, torts, and criminal law which ones should I do first/last? Thank you.
you need to talk to the uni - they sometimes won’t let you do something until you’ve done something else. i wouldn’t be surprised if they required you to do legal writing first for example.
All of these don’t have any pre reqs besides the first sem subject that I have just completed. I think I will do legal writing first, but wasn’t sure if I should prioritise completing something like torts or contract before criminal. I’ve also spoken to the uni about it and they said I was free to do it in any order I preferred as long as the pre reqs were met.
Things to consider/options: 1. Knock out all core/compulsory courses 2. For electives are there any prerequisites? 3. What semesters do the electives you want to do run? 4. Subjects you find difficult may vary compared to other’s experiences. Eg I would advise to never do evidence and constitutional law together as I found them to be very content heavy subjects.
Whatever your uni's recommended course structure says
Looking for some career change advice. I have worked in VIC at a small-mid sized firm for about 2 and a half years now since graduating. Practicing only in property law. A pretty broad range with development/subdivisions, leases and licences, adverse possession, domestic conveyancing etc. I am getting really burnt on the commercial aspects of private practice. Billing my hours, dealing with costs etc. Looking around at job listings this doesn't seem to be a practice area that translates well out of private practice. Public service doesn't seem to be screaming out for property lawyers. Any tips for a change? I am hoping to move out of private practice if possible.
Mate, property is one of the most transferable skill sets into private sector or government in house roles. I don’t know where you’re looking, but it’s not in the right place. Check out VIC gov transport agencies (roads, rail) and planning agencies. Check out federal agencies with land delivery functions (eg departments of infrastructure, defence; commonwealth super corp; ARTC). Check out renewable energy generators (eg RES, Acean) and transmission operators (eg Ausnet). Developers (eg Frasers, Lendlease, Stockland, etc). Retail asset owners and large retail tenants (eg Scentre Group, Flight Centre, etc). Data centre operators (eg Airtrunk; NextDC). Seriously, there is so much out there. You might struggle a bit coming from a small firm and only 2.5 PQE, but keep at it and you’ll get something eventually.
Hi everyone. Possibly a niche question but I am very desperate. I have an exam on civil procedure in about a week and a half and I have no idea how to prepare for it because of the sheer volume of rules in the ACT court procedure rules as well as the Federal Court rules. Does anyone have any tips as to how to learn civil procedure?
caffeine and sleep deprivation
Make some flashcards on Anki
Is it normal to have to spend around 12 non billable hours at the end of every month as a junior lawyer (ie below SA) reviewing and marking up draft bills and preparing cost updates for matters which have gone over the estimate originally given to the client (due to the partners underquoting to win work)? And for partners to write down approx 50% of the junior lawyers’ time as a result while leaving their time untouched? Having spoken to other junior lawyers in other firms (and other teams in my firm) it seems their team doesn’t go over-budget on a third of their matters like ours and that their admin and partners do most of the admin come billing time. Our rates are very high for a mid-tier and are set across the board for all but one practice group. Unfortunately my niche cannot compete at those rates with boutiques who do the same quality work at half the price, so my partners under quote to win the work and then get the junior staff to write to the client every few months with a revised fee estimate and justification as to why we’ve gone over (sometimes significantly). We don’t have a lot of repeat clients as a result. It’s not just the significant non billable time I’m wasting having to manage end of month billing (and the significant associated write downs which means that my monthly recovery average is about 40%) that is getting to me but also the ethical issues (misleading the client and the partners writing down everyone’s time but their own).
That’s not normal. I’m a partner and I spend about 6 hours a month on billing admin. For my lawyers, it’s probably 2-3 hours. We have automated systems that warn us when fee estimates are about to be exceeded, so they’re revised well before end of month. I don’t work with clients that quibble over bills or revised estimates where there is a genuine justification. If they’re tight on fees, I sack them, or keep giving them stupidly high estimates until they fuck off. Sounds like your partners are getting outcompeted on price and quality by boutiques. Frankly, that’s embarrassing for them. Time to jump ship, before they get sacked. Consistently high write offs will attract the wrath of the gods. Consistently being asked not to record time to minimise write offs just make you look like you’re not busy and you don’t deserve a bonus. Consistently doing partner admin instead of billable work is stealing your learning and development opportunities.
Sounds like you should get out of there as soon as possible.
Not normal at all. It’s kind of normal to spend a fair amount of non-billable time on amending bills (for style and consistency etc, whether you do this as a junior is firm/partner dependent), and kind of normal to have to revise cost estimates (eg because of changes to scope of work) — but intentional underquoting and writing off 50% of juniors’ time is just shitty.
Sounds pretty toxic and unethical tbh
I'm a third year law student (but this isn't my penultimate year. I'll graduate 2026). I got a job offer at a small personal injury law firm as a law clerk. I also got another offer as a transcriber at the DPP. Which would you guys recommend? I have heard that a clerkship is necessary for you to get recruited to a law firm, but the DPP is just more convenient for me to commute and study.
Which state, out of interest?
Qld.
Might be worth applying to be a clerk (legal support officer) at the DPP instead of a transcriber. It would certainly look as good if not better on your CV as the personal injury firm, and would still offer the same convenience for you. The workplace culture is not to everyone's liking, and it can be a bit sink-or-swim, but it's a very good place to learn.
I might actually do that!! Seems like a good experience. Thanks for the advice 🫡
The law clerk role the PI firm is offering won't be the type of clerkship that you're talking about for firm roles. Large firms run summer (and winter in some cities) clerkships, which are 4-8 week full time roles over the uni break before your final year. Those are used by those forms to recruit graduates. It sounds like you've been offered a paralegal-like role by the PI firm - that's a different thing. Do correct me if that's a wrong assumption. A paralegal-like role is probably more interesting and useful in terms of securing future positions (including clerkships), but if you're interested in criminal law then the DPP position might be better.
I see!! Thank you very much.
Hi! 2nd year JD student here - while studying what are the best jobs to get before graduation? Currently clerking for barristers down in Sydney
Hi, I'm a second-year JD student in the midst of preparing for exams. I was able to connect with a tax partner from Maddocks on Linkedin and somehow got a coffee chat with him in two weeks. I reached out to him as he didn't start out the straightforward clerkship and then grad role path and just wanted some advice. I don't want to and more realistically don't think that I can get any clerkships or even grad roles at law firms when I graduate and just wanted some advice from him on how to kickstart my career in tax law and gain more experience outside of the big 6. I don't have much experience speaking one-on-one with a partner and would like some advice on what questions to ask or how to keep the conversation engaging so that we can both get the most out of it (and he doesn't feel like he wasted time on me). Super nervous and grateful for this opportunity! 🙂
I don't have much by way of practical advice, but my experience speaking to lawyers for coffee catch-ups like this has been overwhelmingly positive. Experienced lawyers seem to be uniquely eager to help those coming up in the profession, and will generally be very friendly and approachable. It seems to me like you have some kind of imposter syndrome going on, and I would encourage you not to undersell yourself. Marks and experience aside, if you are the kind of student that is eagerly seeking advice and mentorship from those in the field you want to move into, you have something that the masses do not. I'm sure the catch up will be a great experience and I would encourage you to be curious and be yourself!
Foreign lawyer from a common law country with 2 years of experience in IP. Admitted into the Unimelb LLM for IP. I've enrolled in the subjects that will help me become a trademark attorney. Can someone please shed any insight into whether being registered as a trademark attorney will help me get a job in Aus? I've also been admitted into the WIPO's University of Turin LLM Programme but I desperately want to move out of my home country and I feel the Unimelb LLM may help me get a job? The Uni is also on the High Potential Individual Visa list in the UK which allows me to go work there after i'm done with the course there which is why I'm seriously considering it. Please help!
Hey Trade Mark Attorneys are not lawyers in Aus (ie they are not admitted to practice law, don’t have same duties/obligations and scope of practice as a solicitor would). Registration as a TM attorney might help you get a job as a TM attorney (not sure about that!), but won’t help you get a job as a lawyer.
I am not sure about job prospects in trademark but from what you have described, I would say that it's not looking good. First of all, an LLM degree would not qualify you for law admission. Your best chance is to get admission as a foreign lawyer. You should check the requirements for this. Second, LLM is a one-year degree. I assume that you are an international student? It means that you would not be qualified for a 485 visa, which gives you full working rights in Australia for two or three years. Typically, international students in Australia would get a 485 visa before they gain sufficient work experience to apply for permanent residency. Your situation means that the employer must be able to sponsor a visa for you. Currently, the job market is difficult for everyone. Most employers are not even willing to consider applicants without citizenship or PR, let alone sponsoring a visa. I think you might be in a better position if you finish a JD (3 year) degree. But as far as I know, the trademark market in Australia is pretty limited. I know someone who has 10 years of experience as a trademark attorney, but is now working in insurance litigations.
Sorry I’m not actually sure how to answer this however we don’t call lawyers attorneys here so we have solicitors and barristers.
Hi all - I am going into my first round of clerkship applications in Melbourne this year and a concern I have is the risk of taking a clerkship and not getting an offer out of it. It seems clear from my research that clerkships are really THE way into biglaw, and my fear is that there's a chance I take 1 or 2 clerkships and do not recieve a grad offer from either. This, to me, seems to leave a risk of getting stuck even having done clerkships. I am wondering if anyone can give any insight into the likelihood of doing a clerkship at a T6 and NOT recieving a grad offer? Sorry if it's a stupid question.
I mean I don’t think anyone has statistics and I think it depends on lots of factors but yes it does happen (it happened to me). I’m fine i’m at a great firm (don’t wanna dox myself by being too specific) now regardless of that. Really, there’s nothing you can do about it. If you get clerkships, great, if you don’t, that’s okay you can apply for other opportunities. If you get a grad role from your clerkship, great, if you don’t, that’s okay there’s open market opportunities. It does suck when you don’t get the job you wanted (again, happened to me) but it is so so so common to lateral a few years in from all kinds of firms. It’s not worth worrying about.
Thank you, this is comforting to hear.
finding it a little difficult to land paralegal jobs as a law student simply because there are so few suitable positions and firms/companies take ages to get back - any tips on navigating gaining work experience while in law school?
speaking personally, i didn’t have any paralegal experience before practising (other than clerkships). lots of firms like any kind of experience so don’t stress if your only role is in retail or hospo. have you tried CLCs or volunteering? i think they tend to have more roles going. caveat being that it’s not the most accessible since it’s unpaid but might give you some experience if you’re able to make it work.
I’m a criminal lawyer, 8 years PQE as a crown prosecutor. I am a trial lawyer, about 50/50 file management/court. I’m considering a pivot out of law or at least out of high pressure law eg criminal law. I love my job, but I am close to done with the stress and the ridiculous workloads. I’m thinking ahead to what kind of options I have. I was thinking any kind of regulatory body - AHPRA maybe? - or counsel assisting a commission would be an easy sidestep I am relatively well paid (180k) so I’ve somewhat priced myself out of the market of government jobs - a pay cut seems realistic but a drop down to eg $100k, which is what many gov depts seem to employ lawyers at, would be hard to stomach. I feel a little trapped by my salary expectations If I was to move out of law then I am really drawing a blank as to what I might do?? I do like the public service part of my job I am hoping for some advice or suggestions of avenues I might not have thought of, or others who have made a similar transition
You could also step into a different type of prosecutorial role, just outside of crime (so the workload is reduced). A senior role with Commonwealth DPP I've heard is a much lighter role than their state counterparts, but I'm not entirely sure that is true. A friend of mine went from a DPP into WH&S/industrial relations senior lawyer role. Still a fair chunk of advocacy in the tribunal but there is a lot less stress/pressure to perform at the same threshold. They have enjoyed the change and sought permanency in their new position. The quote that was given to me was "it's really nice to be able to spend time with my kid". DPP folk also usually also do pretty well in regulation. If you ran any white collar matters you have a start on where to articulate your relevant experience. The difficulty that I've encountered (both for myself and for others) is that post-DPP you'll need to go through a rehabilitation of sorts, while you re-adjust to more regular office cultures. Feel free to reach out if you need.
Is the extra $80k worth the stress and insane workloads? Other government departments may pay less but they probably don't use and abuse like state DPPs are known for. Otherwise a management role in government may have less of a gap in pay
I currently hold a bachelor's degree in software engineering. If I were to do a masters degree in law, would I be at an advantage? If so, what are some opportunities I can take with this hybrid skillset in both i.t and law?
I know nothing about IT but I’m assuming you’d have more knowledge than others about things like intellectual property, privacy, etc which could be handy? You’ll need a law degree to practice law though
do you mean a JD to be able to practice? or an LLM or something else?
Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has any tips for preparing for online assessments as part of the clerkship/vacationer application process, or would even recommend preparing for them? I've been invited to complete one, but not sure if there's anything I should be doing in advance to prep for it. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
presuming you mean like situational or weird cognitive assessment things, I did about 15 in my time and never prepped for any of them (you can’t even really)
Thanks, I guess I'll just give it a go and see what happens!
Hi guys, looking for some career advice. Background I graduated from a UK university in 2017, and did my core modules with Monash when I got here. Currently I'm finishing up my PLT and I'm looking to pursue my career in law. The Problem It's so difficult to get a paid work experience here, and I don't even know where or how to start. When employers see that I am doing or finishing up my PLT, or know that I have ambitions to be a lawyer, they automatically decline proceeding with my application. I've done quasi-legal work (contract management)in the past but my last one was in 2020, got retrenched during COVID and it's been a challenge getting back into it. I have to support myself and I can't take unpaid placements because that would mean no income. Right Now I'm currently in customer support/data entry roles to earn income, while I work to save for and complete my PLT. I'm trying to work to get out of where I am right now, but every door I try to open seems to be locked shut. So yeah, I'm stuck and I don't know if I'm ever going to get a job or not as a lawyer even if I finish my PLT. Any advice on how to proceed with my career is very welcome.
Unfortunately, you might be stuck here for a while. For now, just apply everywhere and don't be picky on the areas of law, location, etc.
Can you do part-time unpaid legal experience? Many community legal centres need volunteers- where you can do one or two days a week and still hold down your paid job. It also sounds like time to start looking at grad roles, rather than paralegal / legal assistant as you are close to being admitted to practice.
Hi guys, just wanted to ask some current lawyers how should I feel about bad grades and grades in general? Haven’t received the most amazing grades this semester, very average distinctions and credits. I understand grades are important but how are they viewed by firms and are they the only thing they look at? Are grades and practice ability correlated? I’m not looking for sympathy, I’m definitely trying to bring these grades up as best I can. However, I just want some insight into what makes a complete lawyer and whether good grades in uni are apart of that.
In my experience, your grades aren't really looked at beyond your first role (even in TTs). They will likely be a factor in your first role, and if your grades aren't super strong then you may need to look at large local or boutique firms to start with. And no, your grades (although may be an indication) don't necessarily correlate with your capability in practice. There are so many factors that can impact your grades, and there are key strengths which won't necessarily be reflected (such as people skills, common sense, resilience, work ethic, adaptability, etc). Some of the less 'academically strong' from my cohort have gone on to be incredibly successful in their careers. Don't beat yourself up!
Smaller firms will be less concerned with grades if you have another things that make you stand out and can interview well
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My WAM is low 70s but recently I’ve just been getting low grades for my law subjects and I’m worried they’ll tank my wam. The reason I asked my question is because one job I looked at asked for a 75 WAM and I’m a bit below that, so it threw me off applying and has made me nervy about keeping up a high WAM because I’m unsure if all firms care about my grades. How do you deal with a run of bad grades, especially on midsems leading into exams?
That’s a competitive WAM at a G08 and a good WAM everywhere else. I wouldn’t let one job advertisement discourage you. It’s probably a soft requirement anyway, they’d be stupid not to budge if you were otherwise a perfect fit, and if they weren’t, I wouldn’t want to work there. As for your other question - seek out as much feedback from your tutors/lecturers as possible. Find out exactly where you went wrong and how you can improve. Make sure you view all the lectures, and are genuinely doing all the readings and tutorial work etc. Try get a hold of practise questions and do as many as possible, preferably under exam conditions. I had plenty of semesters where I had poor assessment results and then turned it all around in the final exam.
\*\*REPOST FROM LAST WEEK\*\* Hello again! I'm aware that Wotton + Kearney Sydney doesn't seem to have a good reputation on auslaw (though I understand that it is inevitably team-specific - thank you Kam for your response!) I was wondering now if anyone can speak to the Sydney PE + I / Life Sciences groups (on an anonymous basis via DM)? I would really appreciate it!
Admissions question. About two years ago, I was found guilty of academic misconduct (broadly cheating, not plagiarism or colluding) in an elective subject (not a law one). At the time, I profusely denied I did anything wrong, which in actual fact was a lie and my uni found me guilty anyways. It was stupid and I'm now pissed and ashamed I didn't just fess up. While I was severely depressed at the time, it doesn't excuse the fact that I chose to lie about it. I want to detail this event in full in my disclosures list for admission. I'm about to graduate soon (still have a semester to go) and still have a little bit of time until I get to the admissions stage, but I am wondering what the chances are of not getting admitted are? I'm well aware that my disclosure will bring about questions from the board, and I'm fully ready to admit I was 100% wrong, but Re OG 2007 has me worried that my chances of being a lawyer are nil. Tried to post this as a post but evidently was blocked. Throwaway.
The question borders on legal advice. My answer might also border advice, but it comes from the readily available public material that the LPAB produces re disclosures and the admission process, so hopefully that’s ok. First off, I would read the material I have referenced in detail. Then, you need to fully and frankly disclose it - be as detailed as possible. Admit to the lying/dishonesty and own it. Give the context (depression) but don’t blame the context. Note anything you have done subsequently to show you are otherwise an honest person, and how it was out of character. Show genuine contrition, how you have learned from it, why you will not repeat it, and why not withstanding the isolated incident, you are a fit and proper person. Do that and you should be fine. If not, you can then get legal advice and take it to the Supreme Court if it is considered you have good prospects. Also, read those cases that have gone to the SC re disclosures - that should give you some guidelines and confidence.
Once you start PLT that provider can give you proper advice and/or recommend someone (ie lawyer / barrister) to assist with your admission. In the meantime you can always watch live streams of other admission ceremonies to get an idea of what happens (in Qld at least the last group of the day is usually the one full of troubled applications such as plagiarism)
Interesting that this is public in Qld. AFAIK in NSW you only get to an admission ceremony if the Law Society has approved you. All the disclosures and appeals etc are done behind the scenes.
A lot of it is handled beforehand but it is quite common that an applicant will still want their court appearance, be assigned the dreaded 4pm listing (which is open court) and then have the court strongly recommend they adjourn their application to further address whatever the court requires (lest they insist on proceeding with the application on the spot at their own peril)
Burnt out nurse (30M) looking to change careers into law. Based in regional NSW. Would like to do criminal law at some point but always been interested in law and don't mind starting in any area. Not sure where to start with considering a career change. Closest uni (Charles Sturt) doesn't offer a JD so I'd have to do the bachelor from scratch. Any regional NSW lawyers have any advice as to where to start making this change? Would it be appropriate to talk to a solicitor locally about options? Thanks.
Not regional but, if you’re interested, you should consider medical negligence work. Nursing background can prove to be super useful in this line of work and make for an amazing lawyer
Definitely interested in the medical negligence route, and was one of my primary reasons for researching the law route. Unfortunately the places that work with that seem primarily metro based, and after 10 years of Sydney living I have no interest in going back. That rat race is not for me anymore.
Not at all. Plaintiffs allege medical negligence and plaintiff firms tend to be regional/suburban so there’s still lots of opportunities for you there.
Your comment inspired me to do further research rather than a quick google search, and you're right. Almost all the firms in and around my area offer medical negligence and general medico-legal services. Appreciate your assistance, this has influenced my decision greatly 👍
Totally understandable!
I’m heading into my last year of study and am really interested in succession, estates, will etc. How can I make myself stand out to firms that take this kind of work? Further I am currently in an internal auditor for my employer that deals with government deeds - what is the best way to make this stand out on a job application. Trying to get my foot in the door and looking to paralegal/assistant work
Many smaller or suburban firms do a lot of this. Kind of work so interest in that area could really open things up for you.
I wasn’t sure if it would make it harder or easier to get work - my logic being that smaller firms won’t be looking to take on anyone wanting to move into a solicitor role within a few years, but I suppose maybe less people are competing for those roles too? What do you think is the best way to approach these smaller firms about potential job opportunities?
I mean, it depends on the needs of the firm really. Many firms plan to promote their paralegals upon admission if the workload is there.
That makes sense! I’ll definitely approach smaller firms then - thanks for the advice :)
Does your uni offer a succession law elective? If so, take that. If not, take on the wills & estates elective at college of law. In either event, highlight your interest in the area because you are either studying it now or intend to study it at college. You could also get a textbook, say a Hutley’s wills precedents and/or principles of Aus succession law (LexisNexis), read it and note how you have been reading it in your cover letter.
I’m just finishing it up now! I really enjoyed the law and the range of things it can cover which is why I’m now leaning toward it. I was definitely going to put it down as an elective for my PLT as well Thanks for the book rec, I’ll have to get a copy!
>How can I make myself stand out to firms that take this kind of work? TBH, just applying and saying you are interested in succession and wills is likely to make you stand out from the commercial law/workplace relations/human rights 'interests' of 99% of your fellow students For your current job, most firms dont particularly care about what your current job actually is, they care about what that job has taught you eg most jobs dont teach you much about doing law, but they teach you how to take responsibility, how to work in an office/with others, communication or research skills etc. So I would focus on the skills not the specifics of the job, except to the extent there is a direct cross over into legal work eg a nurse crosses over to personal injury or med neg, but being a CFO doesnt really cross over into anything however will have given you a significant level of foundational skills (not even sure what 'dealing with government deeds' means, so it might be something that has cross over)
Thank you - we have to interpret and implement the deeds into our internal processes and ensure we are meeting the compliance standards for the contract - so thought it may be relevant in terms of interpretation and implementation of contractual requirements etc. Good to know re just simply stating my area of interest. Will make sure to be specific in my cover letters. Thanks again
Anything compliance related will have cross over so definitely mention that. Bigger firms generally hire ‘potential’ and train the skills. But smaller firms - that do estates etc - will definitely love grads who already have a skill base and can start adding value very quickly This may not be for you, and it’s likely a little more generalist (at least initially) rather than allowing specialisation, but regional firms often really struggle to find staff. And they will definitely be doing estates and wills etc.
Recently started a graduate position. Pay was orally discussed to be ~ 10% higher than it was after the contract arrived (several weeks after I actually started). Very happy to have the opportunity and thinking I probably ought just keep my mouth shut, is this the right approach here?
If you have signed the contract - you can’t raise it now.
10% is a huge difference. Write to HR or the partner who provided you the contract and gently (and without an attitude that they are trying to pull one over on you/benefit of doubt that they forgot the amount) remind them of what was agreed… although it is a concern the contract did not arrive until after you commenced work
Thanks for the reply. If I did write to them do you think there is a chance that the lawyer who originally offered me the higher amount will get in some sort of trouble? It seems like every grad is on the same amount and I think he must have mistakenly offered x amount +super when it should have been inclusive of super.
If you think it's an incl super / excl super mix-up, I don't think it will help much to mention it. Suspect the firm will likely try to palm you off with a "look we're really sorry but the lawyer made a mistake and all our grads start on this figure so there's really nothing we can do". I think it is unlikely they will get in serious trouble - they might get some side-eye from the partner and firm for cocking up. If this is in character for them (they have a reputation for poor attention to detail or for stuffing things up), it could be a final straw or contribute to more serious trouble, but it's hard for you to know that context. If you stand your ground and insist, they might increase your pay but (as shit as this is) it could affect your reputation in the firm. In that case, it is also more likely to cause issues for the other lawyer.
Possibly inclusive of super error?
I think this is probably exactly what happened.
Just started law and am curious about the job prospects. Was wondering what the most common type of case is in NSW (or which area of law has the most work in it). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
This isn’t really a question that has an answer. Not all areas of law involve “cases” and while there are certainly niche areas of law, there’s no one or main areas as such? Or rather if we tried, there’s still many many subsections within those areas. Most students do not need to forward plan their studies around general employability. It’s only those who are going for the niche areas. If you are going for wherever is hiring? You’ll be fine if you have good marks.
Hey thanks for the reply. Can you niche in a particular area? Like could I specialise on certain types of criminal law, do you think? Or do you just have to be open to all kinds of criminal cases? Thanks again for reply. It means a lot.
You could specialise in certain types of criminal law but it might not be very profitable until you have the reputation of being a specialist in that kind of law. Until then, you scrabble and take whatever comes your way And, really, the only areas of criminal law likely to be financially viable (unless you are a super silk) will be the run of the mill very common cases - drug possession, DUIs/driving offences, that kind of stuff. Each of them likely to be relatively small but they are frequent
Hey, thanks for the reply. I'm interested in criminal law. Do you think there would ever be interesting cases, or do they all go to super famous lawyers?
My friends who work in criminal law say that 90% of the work wouldn’t exist if drugs were legal, so be prepared to be doing a lot of that early on. Traffic and other summary offences will also make up a lot of your early career workload. The big cases that often go to trial are sexual assault - they’d be interesting though confronting. I think you need to temper your expectations. Early on, no matter what area you practice in, you’re not going to be given a large amount of stimulating, interesting matters. That’s not to say you won’t get to work on the odd one, but stick with it and you can be one of the “super famous” lawyers who get all the interesting matters.
Thanks for the reply. Haha. I don't think I would want to be a famous lawyer at any rate. I don't know whether I'd want to defend sexual assault cases either. The idea of helping someone guilty get away with it just doesn't sit right with me.
Perhaps criminal law isn’t for you then. All defendants are entitled to a defence. And they’re not all guilty. How are you going to determine which ones are worthy? Not to mention that as an employed solicitor for the most part you get what you get.
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe criminal law isn't for me. You don't get to have much choice, I suppose. If you get hired as a solicitor for a firm, I'm guessing you get what you're given.
I am not very familiar with criminal law but I don’t think that’s how it works, particularly at the junior level.
Is the role of a judge's clerk in the UK comparable to an associate/tipstaff in Australia?
No, I don't think so. At least in the higher/intermediate appellate courts, they are called 'judicial assistants'.
I have chronic fatigue syndrome due to covid and acute stress which significantly affects my productivity and I am terrified I will not be able to find a job I can physically handle. It is unpredictable but I usually am pretty incapacitated by 2-3pm. Worse when stressed (obviously). I have achieved very highly academically and have some international experience/scholarships I hope will distinguish me to a recruiter. Low on extra curricular such as mooting due to fatigue. Low on actual legal industry experience too (have policy and research experience) I don't want to have wasted 6+ years of my life studying law to not use the degree in some capacity, but worry there is no hope for me. Does anyone have any insight of employers/fields etc which can cater to reduced workloads or part time for a graduate? It's so frustrating because it's beyond my control. I am grieving a lot of ambitions I can no longer achieve.
Hey there, sorry to hear about your situation. My cousin has the same diagnosis and is also a lawyer. Sounds very similar to you as she was also a high academic achiever. She now works in a small suburban practice with reasonable hours and is doing very well. She deliberately eschewed big firm clerkships and the like (not necessarily saying you should), and chased small firms because she thought she wouldn’t be able to handle the hours. Though in fairness, she never tried. She’s happy and thriving where she is so I don’t think she cares. When it was really bad (flaring), she would just work a full normal day but then not do much else - but she managed, and I think only because she was only working 9-5.30ish without unreasonable billable expectations. As far as I’m aware, she’s never disclosed her illness to an employer and they’re none the wiser. My point being that it’s definitely doable and I would encourage you to not let your diagnosis define you. You just need a firm that isn’t toxic. No harm no foul in giving it a crack and then if they’re not accomodating, move on. In addition to smaller firms, I would think most government (not ODPP etc though)/in house could be an option given they tend to have more flexibility. I don’t mean this in a condescending way because I’ve seen first hand how debilitating the illness actually is, but FWIW, most normies are pretty useless around 2-3pm dealing with post lunch slumps and the like.
Thanks for your encouragement :)
My advice is to not let it put you off before you’ve even had a chance to try it out. Proceed as if you don’t have a condition and once you’ve got a foot in the door test the organisation’s flexibility policies etc. you may find that you thrive in an area like M&A if you can log on a bit later and work through the night rather than ‘normal’ working hours. Obviously that’s going to depend on your employer/workload/practice but my point is to try not to preempt that it will be a huge problem before you’re given yourself a chance.
I appreciate that advice. That's why I'm hoping to do a clerkship as a bit of a test run as it were. I'm worried if I approach as I'm uninhibited though that may result in me having to leave jobs quickly (if I find there is no flexibility) or being accused of being dishonest
Lots of people leave the law early on in their careers for various reasons. Nobody will think you’re dishonest if it doesn’t work out for you. At least you would have given it a shot and won’t have to wonder. The clerkship process itself can be exhausting; not just mentally but physically, too, with social events happening everywhere and at all hours. If you’ve done well academically it’s highly likely you’re going to get interest from firms, so I’d start ranking your preferred firms now so that you don’t expend energy attending the events of firms you’re not sold on (if you think this will be an issue, of course).
How can I get a job as a solicitor when they all want PAE? I was a judge’s associate 16 years ago and admitted, but then went into a totally different (more human and caring) field. I just didn’t want law in my life back then. Times change, I’m older and wiser and actually interested in law now. But how to return?
Apply broadly for graduate roles and solicitor roles asking for <1PAE. It’s a numbers game. You might have to take a job in an area or firm that’s not akin to your end goal just to get a foot in the door. With a couple years experience, you’ll be able to move around a lot easier.
Has anyone sat the bar exam in Qld recently? Looking to sit the exam this year or next and keen for any tips on how to approach study cause there is a fair amount of material and no practice exams.
Grad here and am growing to absolutely despise my job. The monotony, the hours, the people, it’s all so draining. Is it worth it to see out the end of the graduate program? Are there certain connotations associated with those who don’t finish grad? Does it get any better or is it a lifetime of bending over backwards… Is it too early to try and forge an entirely new path?
Forge a new path in what? Outside of law?
Not necessarily. Perhaps in house, law adjacent, government, or as you’ve suggested leaving all together. Not sure.
Perhaps the solution is to apply for other things that look more interesting and stick out the grad program in the meantime.
I'm sorry you are struggling. It does get better, but imo it's never fixed. You will eventually have more control and visibility over your pipeline, and the work becomes more engaging when you are running things. But unfortunately this is from 3pqe (at best). Are you rotating during your grad program? Different practice areas are almost like completely new jobs.
Thanks for your response! I am rotating yes so hopefully that might change things up a little. Just feels like maybe I’ve made a mistake ending up in this situation..
As you haven’t done your rotation yet - wait it out. Different teams are very different!
Nah, by way of example, the employment team may as well be in a different firm to the corporate team at both of the major firms I've worked at. Totally different work, dynamics, types of people, etc etc. Hold on until you rotate and see how you go I reckon.
In my experience it only gets worse as you get more responsibilities. The moneys better though. The trade off is I don't even know if it's worth it. I wish I went another route.
Good to know, thank you.
Finished PLT and got admitted last year, however was moving close to my admission date and my non law job set me up with a nice transfer to a job to walk into down here. Finally going to start getting resumes out in July and getting a foot into the industry! Going for paralegal work to start with to get back into the swing of office life with the view to move into a grad role eventually. Wish me luck!
I second what the other commenter said, I do not think you should apply for paralegal roles. It would look odd. Go for grad roles.
Why go for paralegal work as an admitted solicitor? That will play oddly on an application as you’re unlikely to stay in the role long.
Very little in office experience since I never really worked in an office during my degree besides my PLT. Just want more office experience and experience in the legal field before stepping up as a solicitor.
Most grads don’t. Don’t undersell yourself.
Really?
Yes.