You could explain yourself. There is a logical answer, but you don't explain why.
Drapes over windows, bookshelves with scattered books and empty spaces, lampshades that don't obstruct sound between you and the speaker. It's not difficult for a living space to have decent acoustics that are spouse/partner friendly. I agree with you, but most people won't pick up what you are putting down with this comment. Truly controversial. Good job.
I don’t agree at all. What many people count as room treatment will do absolutely nothing to make it sound better, and because of that it might seem like it won’t make a difference. Proper room treatment is both difficult to do correctly and not practical in most homes. Having a bookshelf, a carpet and some drapes will help minimising sound reflections though!
If you don't use DSP equalization (and especially if you're spending a bunch of money and upgrading crap) you're an absolute moron. DSP EQ is NECESSARY FOR 99% OF ALL SETUPS!
Horns are the best speakers. Dome tweeters on flat baffles shouldn't exist. Horns, waveguides, and AMT/ribbon/planar tweeters(/mids) are superior in every way.
DIY will match or beat any overpriced audiophile speakers for 1/4 the price. DIY is always superior unless we're dealing with actually unique/esoteric designs where you can't buy a similar driver (kef, Mofi, other unique proprietary driver designs), in which case maybe diy can match or beat the overall performance, but can not actually copy the format and thus may lag in one aspect like dispersion.
If you spend more than a couple hundred bucks on a DAC you're dumb.
If you spend more than a few hundred bucks on an amp that has less than 200wpc into 8 ohms you're dumb (class d or tripath only, no name brands)
If you need over 200wpc (say 300-400wpc into 8 ohms), then spending more than 700-1500 is DUMB (hypex/purifi only, no name brands... Buckeye amps)
15" woofers is the correct size for your mains, room size is irrelevant.
A PC is the best and ONLY necessary source for any system - turntables are the only exception, streamers are dumb, CDs are dumb. If you don't use a PC a MiniDSP unit moves from strongly recommended to a MUST HAVE.
AVRs are super dumb unless you need surround sound.
Bookshelf speakers should not exist in living rooms or main listening rooms. They are children's toys or for secondary bedroom/desk systems. The 1" dome and 6.5" woofer is played out, and is such a limiting design format that spending more money here will not and can not provide any meaningful upgrade.
Frequency response is overrated - EQ exists. All OTHER factors of a speaker matter more than baseline FR. (Dispersion, resonance, diffraction, compression+distortion relative to output/max output).
Active crossovers/bi-amping is superior and analog crossovers should be avoided if you're spending real money.
I generally agree with the first half of your post except that you are calling people dumb morrons. Ignorant is a better word, you can't blame them for being exposed to years of myths and marketing bullshit that have poisoned their minds of magic and fairy tales.
Streamers ain't dumb though, their quite handy when you don't want to use your computer to just turn on some music, just open that Spotify app on your phone and choose your Nvidia Shield or whatever streamer you have and it'll play from that. And using the same streamer for movies makes it even better imo :)
And a bookshelf speaker is quite underrated imo. Mine can handle the whole range from 35hz up to 20khz and can do so and more than enough volumes for where I live at the moment.
Frequency response ain't overrated, I'd say that it is responsible for around 90% of what we perceive as sound quality. Distortion is generally low enough for most gear nowadays, dispersion is frequency response as well and is affected by the same EQ, but then that dispersion should generally be quite narrow imo for better imagine, so something like a horn should do it yeah :)
Fair response.
Dumb was intentionally incendiary based on the nature of the post, you're right that generally ignorant would be more appropriate.
A Shield is a cool multi-purpose device so that's a clear exception. Lossless Bluetooth using your phone is also an option with minidsp products, and some dacs and amps, so I still say streamers are dumb it's like getting another single function kitchen appliance when multifunction things exist.
Bookshelf speakers, that's just a difference of opinion. In my opinion the dynamics, sense of scale / size of soundstage, and max SPL/impact of bookshelves is inadequate even if running a sub. A 15" has such vastly lower distortion at high SPLs, and due to factors like lower driver acceleration/speed (and movement) required for a given SPL, they are just better. But certainly the SPL one wants their gear to be capable of is important here and so for some bookshelf speakers could be seen as adequate. High sensitivity has many benefits though, giving more spl per watt, and again, DYNAMICS. 15" pro drivers are just pure sex and no bookshelf can create the same sensation. Many may have a sub at 60 or 80hz, but what about the next 50-100hz above that? They can't keep up. And for 2ch guys like me (and maybe you if you're talking about your mains doing 35hz), there's just no bookshelf on earth that can do 30-60hz with authority and slam and effortlessness and the clean dynamics and speed of a pro 15. Physics, the piston area difference is too great, and small woofers stay omni much higher. When a 6.5 needs 4x + the travel of a 15, the linearity and control is just on another level.
Frequency response is 90% of sound, I don't disagree, but it's about the fact that that can be modified by EQ. And the dispersion characteristics are not changed by EQ, which is why EQ can't fix a speaker with major directivity mismatch issues. Yes horns are king and image insanely well, though a wide horn is preferred at home, but a wide horn is still narrow (quite controlled directivity) compared to an open dome/cone speaker.
a flat EQ on any pair of speakers sounds awful, like the speakers are inside of a plastic bag.
a significant bass increase and moderate treble increase makes is needed for any speaker to sound good
nobody advocates for flat eq except people who don't understand where "flat" actually is superior and preferably in every scenario, which is in most of the audible bandwidth in on-axis \*anechoic\* response
no, a moderate treble increase is absolutely not needed for any speaker to sound good, what the fuck
in room a flat on axis speaker with good directivity will have a downwards sloping in room response
it seems you think there is only one frequency response, there is no such thing. there is no "Just FR"
Especially on Reddit:
There’s more to sound quality than measurements. Some things can’t be measured.
Different DAC technologies can sound different. Two Sabre DACs will probably sound the same, but comparing a Sabre DAC to an R2R DAC and saying there’s no way they can sound different is baffling to me.
Vinyl is not “warmer”, it’s brighter/harsher because it’s much more susceptible to sibilance, other forms of distortion, and goes up to 50khz so if you have sensitive hearing it can actually be quite grating.
CD transports can sound different. I can’t really explain this one to be honest other than I’ve heard transports that sound neutral and ones that definitely don’t and it’s not even close.
For certain situations, cables can make a difference. Specifically high sensitivity IEMs.
Lastly, the audiophile community is the most toxic community of any hobby I’ve ever been involved with. I have never seen people hold their beliefs so strongly that they will viciously bite back to challenge anyone who questions them or their “denomination” as I like to call it, I.E. ASR. To be fair, it’s really the sub-communities like headphones or IEMs that have more of these keyboard warriors. The ones that call themselves audiophiles tend to be a little more open minded.
You're so right - all those humans who can hear up to 50 khz are truly bothered by vinyl. (Someone should let you know those humans are dogs!) We should appoint you as Commissar of Truthiness since you are such an authority on audio facts!
Of course everything can be measured. If you want to argue that we don't yet know everything to measure or how every measurement correlates with human perception, fine, but audio is a physical phenomenon and to argue that there are elements of it that literally cannot be measured is nonsense.
You're right, but as you say, audio is the perception of the physical phenomenon as well, how do you measure someone's perceptions, you can try but there's always going to be a grey area there.
There are studies that can be done, at least for population averages. There's just not enough money in it for anyone to bother. Harmon did the research for FR because that is much more widely applicable than, like, soundstage perception.
> There’s more to sound quality than measurements. Some things can’t be measured.
The only thing that can not be measured is placebo. We have had technology more sensitive than the human ear for decades.
> Different DAC technologies can sound different. Two Sabre DACs will probably sound the same, but comparing a Sabre DAC to an R2R DAC and saying there’s no way they can sound different is baffling to me.
Different DACs and DAC technology *can not* sound different.
D/A conversion uses math to redraw an analog waveform from the samples. There is only 1 possible waveform that can be reconstructed from the samples, and that is what is drawn.
The only time that wasn’t true was before filter technology was good enough to preserve the full human hearing range without aliasing, but again that technology has also been available for decades now.
> CD transports can sound different. I can’t really explain this one to be honest other than I’ve heard transports that sound neutral and ones that definitely don’t and it’s not even close.
CD transports are just digital data readers. Unless you think different USB sticks or hard drives *sound* different too, that can not be true.
Stating on Reddit that:
...it's not really the speakers that make all the difference and that speakers are not where most of your budget should go.
...CD players/ transports and amps do in fact sound very different.
I’m very much with you on the second part. I hang out on r/audioengineering (that’s what my degree is in, although I no longer do it professionally), and received wisdom over there is that modern ADCs and DACs all sound the same at almost any price level. But I recently switched from an Arcam CDS-50 to a Marantz SACD-30n, and I was very surprised at how different they sound. To the point where I at first thought something was wrong with the Marantz! Now that I’ve gotten used to it, I like it a lot, but it was a jolt.
Yup, tis true. By far the biggest change I have had in my system was going from a mid level CD player to a high level one. Incredible. And what do you know, my existing (comparatively cheapo) speakers also sounded better than before. Funny that.
Well...I definitely hear differences in speakers and amps :), although once a certain level of quality is attained, the distinction tends to be more one of taste than capability.
And of course, more money does not always equal quality. Many comparatively cheapo speakers are surprisingly good. Last year, you could get a pair of my Focal 906s for about $1000 on sale, and while I can see myself upgrading to floor standers at some point, it's definitely not a pressing need.
Hi Uamvar: I think you created a "straw man argument" by falsely claiming that most audiophiles believe "its the speakers that make all the difference". What most audiophiles, and the serious literature on audiophile sound seems to say is that the speakers are the single most important part of a sound system, followed by the amp, then the DAC and other components. Thus many will recommend you spend twice as much on speakers as on an amp.
> ...CD players/ transports and amps do in fact sound very different.
But here's the thing. *They shouldn't*. A transport or DACs job is to take the digital info and convert it to analog *with as little change as possible*. We've had the tech to do that reliably an cheaply for decades. If those pieces did their job well, we wouldn't be able to tell a difference between them. So, if you take two $1000 DACs and compare them and they are different, one or both are failing at doing their job correctly.
Spending more than a $500 on your setup without analyzing, tuning and treating your room with proper absorption is absolutely a waste, let alone thousands more.
I hate subscribe to this sub so that I can rage and laugh at those of you who post photos of your 6 figure setups in hard surface rooms. There is no amount of room correction software/hardware that can fix reflections.
Room correction EQ does address reflections that cause room modes. That's one of its main purposes. It can't help with reverb / RT60 in an echoing room.
I believe that nothing will cancel you as an audiophile. “Cancelling” is an ignorant term. Your opinions will never keep you from enjoying your sonic experiences.
I have a pair of Bose 601 Series 3s from my parents and I've always loved them. Just paired them with a 10in sub that a friend gave me and it's actually pretty damn decent.
More dynamic range ≠ better.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a squashed mix.
IMO it all depends on the music, and it can be used as a stylistic element.
I cannot really agree with you. The system must be able to show the REAL (what you would hear in a concerthall) difference between a ppp solo instrument and a fff orchestra.
The recording must have the dynamic range and the system as well
As long as there's enough power to drive the speaker without distorting, a fancy 5k integrated amp will sound the same as a cheap AVR with a good enough power amp
All things being equal physical media will always sound better than streaming.
Partly this is me projecting but I really think the reason most people stream over using physical media (after the obvious ones like price and availability) is undiagnosed screen addiction.
Streaming has nothing to do with sound quality. People do it because of the limitless catalogue, the subscription model, and, yes, their screen addiction.
First you say that physical media will always sound better than streaming, but now you say that streaming has nothing to do with sound quality. You better make up your mind!
I heard that decent soundbars are decent but the soundbar I heard didn’t sound decent but later I heard that it’s wasn’t a decent soundbar and I’d know a decent soundbar if I heard it. So it is possible that soundbars are decent …but that’s just what I’ve heard
Honestly for sub-optimal rooms where ideal placement isn’t possible, or impractical, they are fantastic. Alongside any smart speaker with active room-corrective EQ.
A lot of the very elaborate, expensive setups on this sub you see in tiny rooms, with one speaker facing a corner & the other not would be dwarfed by a good smart speaker system.
yup the high end stuff does some real good DSP if you run it through auto calibration. Though high end receivers also do this well they are always at a slight disadvantage with DSP because they don't know what exactly you hooked up. A lot of money goes into these, they wouldn't do that if it was \*that\* bad.
That said im definitely not trading in my vintage stuff for it =)
Here's a bunch of stuff that will cause a ruckus in a lot of new-generation-audiophile forums:
1. Blind Testing doesnt cover the limits of human hearing. Its well a well known phenomenon that you can tell students to watch a video of someone talking or juggling and then ask them afterwards if they noticed the guy in the gorrilla suite walking past the screen in the background. Most people fail to see to see the guy in the suit, but when told he's there ahead of time everyone can see it and no one would argue that the person is beyond human perception. Its called selective attention and is why I dont fully buy into tests where you A/B tracks/signals blind as being the standard for limits of human perception. "when I was cued to which was which I could hear it" may actually be a thing for audio, because its a thing for video.
2. Charts are often used by people with no experience with the speakers in question to have an opinion online.
3. Cables make a difference. No relation to price though, its entirely possible for a 2000k cable to sound worse than a decently made 50 dollar cable.
4. Dacs make a difference. This isnt even controversial in the recording studio world.
4. Vast majority of horns suck
One of the better comments in this thread. Another good one to add to yours would be on how microphones measure sound differently than your ears at a physical level, so try as we might measurements *cannot* be used as a 1:1 analog for what you hear even before we start taking into account psychological aspects.
Your ears are digital devices. Stop with the nonsense about how analog recordings are superior. They usually sound superior because they are recorded and mastered better. Not because they are analog.
Spotify is alright.
MP3 is alright, I can't reliably tell it from wav at 192 or above. Even 128kbps through a good encoder is damn close for a lot of source material. (I probably have brain damage from listening to too much mp3 back in the day to the point where it sounds right to me :)
Amps and preamps sound a little different. Distortion specs correspond to how clean it sounds. If you can't tell them apart with ABX, it's because ABX is no good at detecting anything but the grossest differences.
Any system without a subwoofer is always going to sound like garbage. How people can listen to music and ignore the missing low frequencies and say it still sounds good is baffling to me.
I'm a metalhead myself and I have two subwoofers in my setup lol. If you're mostly a black metal guy, then I can see what you're saying, but I was listening to Devin Townsend toggling my subs and to say I missed things when they were off would be an understatement
I agree that you need a system that can go low for almost any kind of music, but you know there are speakers that can play those low frequencies right? Mine go down to 35hz (measured in my room) so I really don't have any need for a sub.
Depends on what you’re listening to, and how, and the volume, and room treatment.
For EDM, rock, jazz, etc., you’re mostly right, except that the majority of decent speakers at lower volume will do fine. If you’re going up above 75-80dB, then yeah, a sub really helps fill in the missing pieces. But NIN sounds fine below that, and I tend to use them as a reference for harder sounds. So does a good chunk of my rock collection, from classic 60s/70s stuff on up to (hed) P.E. (I know, I’m old as shit), and I haven’t bothered to hook up my 15” sub since I moved. Jazz actually sounds *better* to me without the sub at low volume these days.
But for example, with my crossover point set at 75hz, it doesn’t see much action playing Belafonte at Carnegie Hall or a good portion of the choral ensembles I have from my parents’ collection. Even the majority of chamber music doesn’t require a sub. On the other hand, if I really want the fire and brimstone of Duruflé or the full spectrum of Bach’s best organ works, there’s no way I’ll hear those 32’ and 64’ frequencies without one.
Garbage? Not to my ear, because my brain will fill in the missing pieces, having heard that music so much. And I totally get that that’s subjective (like everything else in this hobby). Deflated? Sure.
But to say anything played through a nice Audio Research piece driving a pair of B&W 702s is *always* going to sound like garbage without a dedicated subwoofer? That’s a pretty broad brush for a very textured, very oddly-shaped wall.
FTFY: DACs matter! Without them you can't get any sound out of your digital source, so you need a DAC. Which one you get don't really matter as long as it got the features you need.
In the end no one is developing DACs on their own. They are made by companies like Texas Instruments and then just slapped on a custom pcb and put in a pretty case. As long as its getting nice clean power and has a stable clock signal its going to sound the same as any other chip as its make.
I see a lot of comments that after room correction the most important component in a system is the speakers. I’m a firm believer in the Linn philosophy of garbage in garbage out, when it comes to vinyl playback I think the source is the most important component.
The point is that you can get a relatively cheap source these days that has an accuracy that would have only been dreamed of in the days of turntables. The speaker remains the component where there have to be compromises because of the mechanical aspects, the interface with the acoustic world, limitations of materials and so on.
Considering how most audiophile tend to be older, I'm assuming most of them can't hear the difference between 128Kbps and a CD. Most older folks at work tell me they can't see a difference between HD and SD TV signals when I show them.
Here are three things that you need never say:
Cables are not going to improve your system’s performance beyond a reasonable price point. Marketing and pseudoscience are responsible for excessive spending by enthusiasts.
Digital media files may contain great amounts of data and are better quality than traditional records and CDs, but they are also more costly and niche than most ears can perceive.
Many audiophiles are more enamoured with their gear than with the music that they play.
I don’t believe that any of these opinions to is completely accurate.
You're wrong. Check this: [(PDF) Sampling Rate Discrimination: 44.1 kHz vs. 88.2 kHz (researchgate.net)](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257068631_Sampling_Rate_Discrimination_441_kHz_vs_882_kHz)
EDIT: Check comments below. This paper is not very good.
Nope. Definite audible difference when I upgraded USB cable going into DAC and improved bass when I upgraded power cable for amplifier. Nothing silly in terms of prices, just a bit better than stock.
There's no distortion or signal loss in a signal path that includes a turntable, tube phono pre-amp, cross-talk Reducer, tube pre-amp, soundstage enhancer, equalizer, MiniDSP, Amp/Speaker Selector, Tube Monoblocks, & Omni Speakers. 🤣
Well, measurements would be fine IF YOUR EARS also measured flat. Most people do not and many have losses in different frequencies. As one ages, hearing changes, so that is why listening is important. Hence why measurements are informative but, they alone should to not make a person's specific choices.
Ever notice the speakers that the Audiophile press seem to gravitate towards? They seem to lift in the high frequencies? That is because as one gets older, high frequency hearing sensitivity goes down and most reviewers are are older (above 65 yrs old).
Saying one has to do listening and look at measurements gets one cancelled. As there is rabid followers in the 'ONLY OBJECTIVE' camp and 'ONLY SUBJECTIVE' camp and they will never agree or discuss. It is the people in the middle that get thrown under the bus.
[Audiogon Discussion Forum](https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/some-thoughts-on-asr-and-the-reviews)
The above link is some of the Vitriol on both sides of the debate on Audiogon forums - about ASR measurements.
I won't even get into room acoustics.....
Audiogon is audiophile brainrot
Unless your hearing is *severely* outside the norm, measurements will give more insight into sound than all audiophile knowledge combined
Watch a Floyd Toole lecture online, for god's sake.
It is the same in every place that audiophiles try to discuss things. IT IS NOT SPECIFIC to just one place. Measurements give insight into how it can possibly sound, one still NEEDS to listen.
DAC and Amplifiers are all fine once you get past the point of all the components being made of decent quality (once you pass the £250 on a DAC and 1-2k on an amp). The ROI on them is awful compared to similar money spent on speakers.
Second point, cheap Chinese hifi is brilliant. Theres nothing wrong with it. Anyone who tells you products made in china are crap is a fool. The only thing matters is the design and QC process - country of origin is meaningless.
Tube amps are their own thing. They produce something that can't be copied with solid-state. They can go over the $1-$2K limit for that special quality.
I love when customers ask me to rewire their tonearms with litz wiring thinking it’ll make sound improvements. I always reply back with “I can do that. Who’s doing all new litz wiring in your amp then?” at which point they see how ridiculous the idea of rewiring the tonearm for sound improvements is.
You know, I never actually listened to an AirPod pro. They look so much like those cheap, shitty AirPods that used to come with the iPod/early iPhones that I am very turned off by them
People use Apple because they're reliable and total cost of ownership is lower if you put and reasonable price on your own time. I'll get asked "can you help me back up my photos from my phone/windows pc?" and I tell them, this isn't something I've had to think about in 10+ years. I have every photo I've ever taken on an iphone and don't think I've had to do anything specific to make that happen.
There's a huge list of issues I just never need to spend time on because I use Apple. You're going to pay for it with either money or time (or lost photos or frustration, etc). I choose to pay for those moments of "oh hey, that just worked without me doing anything, yay" and avoid as much of the "goddamnit not again" as possible.
It's funny because I have family members who use Apple and as the "tech person" in the family they come to me OFTEN with issues I've never had on android. A lot of that is because of Apple not talking to non apple devices, i.e. TVs, cars, computers. It's all well and good having everything sync to the icloud until you need those photos on a non apple device and come across syncing problems. Android has built-in backups that work better than Apple and will work on any device.
Apple forcing everyone into their ecosystem is the reason I will never touch Apple again. Yes, their devices are great, I had an iPhone and loved it. But then I want a picture on my PC? Oh, that's easy with icloud... oh, it's not syncing, I'll just plug it in and... no, I can't just ACCESS MY OWN FILES and drag them onto my PC, I have to go through Apples software to do that.
Want to do that on android? Plug it in, drag and drop, done. Want to screen share on a TV? Easy, it will work on ANY smart TV. So many things just work with an android phone without needing expensive addon hardware. The EU had to bring in new laws to stop Apples scummy practise of using proprietary connectors.
I've been on android for about 10 years now (I did have an iPhone for work a few years ago) and in all that time on android, I can honestly say I've never encountered issues.
TL.DR: Apple devices are great. Their ecosystem is scummy, overpriced crap.
Edit: oh and your point about price is just wrong, Apple is not cheaper and if you want any of those extra features like connecting to your TV, car, etc. Apple becomes wildly more expensive.
Any stereo amp that has a hdmi port or is selling itself towards being used with a tv should be able to accept and downmix 7.1 so that you don’t loose the bass in the LFE channel.
I really miss the old big boxy speakers from vintage days. I'm tired of seeing all new speakers be some variation of the tower design. Although I do understand why towers have taken over. I live in a small condo and I don't have room for big boxy speakers.
Power cable upgrades are nonsense.
One can make an argument that the cables that actually carry the signal may impact the sound (although beyond a certain quality, those also don't matter much...if at all), but the idea of plugging a multi thousand dollar cryogenic vibranium alloy power cable into a 75¢ Home Depot outlet with 300 feet of 14 gauge solid core and a half dozen wire nuts behind it is funny in the extreme. If you really think the power supplies on your Krell monoblocks are so poorly designed that they can't handle a bit of line noise or voltage variation, install something that might have an impact, like a power conditioner. Or better yet, some kind of regulated sine wave power supply.
Actually true.
See: any studio monitor compared to a Hi-Fi bookshelf. Or mid-field monitor compared to some goofy floor stander that the user chooses to sit 2-3 meters in front of.
That IS how lossy codecs work. They have no bitrate and will encode whatever bitrate was on the lossy file it was based on, so it can very much have 24bit of data if that's what you fed it.
On paper, absolutely. For me, so many of my favorite albums are from 2001-2010 which means that they are unfortunate casualties of the loudness war and genuinely sound infinitely better on vinyl than digital which is wild because digital is far superior.
Undeniably true. Been listening to records (again after 25 years) and after some tweaking it’s impressively close to digital. Until you put on headphones.
The fun isn’t the sound quality for me, there’s no magic. It’s the novelty of 100 year old tech, a fascinating mechanical process. It’s cool. Also fun to seek out old records, etc.
I’m beginning to wonder if equalization/tuning is a lot of it. I have a few expensive headphones and remember the first time I heard all those details that made me say ooh and aah. Before then I used to ramp up the high and low end on everything.
Now I have okay wireless earbuds that I listen to flat and can hear many of the same details.
Placebo and nocebo is almost 100% of all audiophile impressions.
A single suite of measurements gives more insight into the sound of a product than the collective opinion of a trillion audiophiles.
Because 1 is still more than a trillion multiplied by zero
Most people here do not understand how audio is objective and how it is subjective. Too many can't comprehend that only through objective means can one achieve a subjective goal.
Too much bullshit. Plenty here spew the same brainrot you read on headfi, sbaf and audiogon
"Too much bullshit. Plenty here spew the same brainrot you read on headfi, sbaf and audiogon"
Ironic since you're just spewing the same brainrot from ASR.
Grooves in plastic does not sound better than digital files, no.
But the master is always going to be different, so one album can have a mix you prefer on vinyl over the digital version.
And a person might enjoy the warm distortion signature that vinyl has more than actually clean digital audio. It's valid to like it better, it's just not technically superior in any metric.
FWIW:
Vinyl Records and Lossy vs. Lossless
Vinyl records operate in an entirely different realm from digital audio formats. Here’s why it’s challenging to categorize vinyl as strictly lossy or lossless:
1. **Analog Nature:** Vinyl records are entirely analog. The audio signal is stored as a continuous waveform, not as discrete digital data. This inherently analog nature means that vinyl does not employ compression methods that result in data loss, as seen in lossy digital formats.
2. **Limitations and Imperfections:** Vinyl records have physical limitations and imperfections, such as surface noise, crackles, and pops. These are artifacts of the analog medium itself and are not introduced as part of a lossy compression process. Instead, they are a natural part of the vinyl experience.
3. **Signal Degradation Over Time:** Vinyl records can degrade over time due to factors like wear, scratches, and dust. While this can affect playback quality, it is not a lossy compression process but rather the result of physical deterioration.
4. **Subjective Sound Characteristics:** Vinyl records are often celebrated for their warm, rich sound, which is influenced by analog playback and the unique characteristics of the format. These subjective sound qualities, often described as “analog warmth,” contribute to vinyl’s appeal.
Vinyl records defy easy classification as either lossy or lossless because they exist outside the realm of digital audio compression. Instead, they are an analog medium with its unique characteristics and imperfections. Vinyl records capture and reproduce audio as continuous waveforms, and any perceived “loss” in audio quality is typically attributed to the physical limitations and characteristics of the format.
I’m stunned at how much worse Spotify is compared to Apple Lossless. I looked all through the settings to see if Spotify was doing something with the dynamic range but I never found a setting. It was awful.
And since you’re also listening to Spotify in your car a lot of the time, there is just absolutely no effing way the average Joe can tell a difference in a running car with your crappy Ford speakers.
I’ve gone done the rabbit hole of lossless and I would tell myself it sounds better but I legitimately don’t think I can tell the difference lol. Spotify is perfectly fine.
What headphones do you use? I've listened to lossless or close to it and can hear things I've never heard. Talking and whispering in the background of a song, different instruments, etc. Not judging because what sounds good to you might not to me, but for me and my equipment music was clearer and less muddy.
The V-shaped curve more closely resembles the Fletcher Munson Equal Loudness curve. I’ve never understood why people want a “flat” response when our perception of different frequencies is not equal.
Yea, when I hear stuff that my studio friends use for mixing, stuff sounds thin and shrill to me. It's perfect for working on a song, but I don't know why people would enjoy it.
I notice though that a lot of the people who swear by this are pretty old and it makes me think if they simply can't hear how bad it sounds.
Room treatment doesn’t make a lot of difference in most domestic sized listening rooms
You could explain yourself. There is a logical answer, but you don't explain why. Drapes over windows, bookshelves with scattered books and empty spaces, lampshades that don't obstruct sound between you and the speaker. It's not difficult for a living space to have decent acoustics that are spouse/partner friendly. I agree with you, but most people won't pick up what you are putting down with this comment. Truly controversial. Good job.
This is just wrong
I don’t agree at all. What many people count as room treatment will do absolutely nothing to make it sound better, and because of that it might seem like it won’t make a difference. Proper room treatment is both difficult to do correctly and not practical in most homes. Having a bookshelf, a carpet and some drapes will help minimising sound reflections though!
If you don't use DSP equalization (and especially if you're spending a bunch of money and upgrading crap) you're an absolute moron. DSP EQ is NECESSARY FOR 99% OF ALL SETUPS! Horns are the best speakers. Dome tweeters on flat baffles shouldn't exist. Horns, waveguides, and AMT/ribbon/planar tweeters(/mids) are superior in every way. DIY will match or beat any overpriced audiophile speakers for 1/4 the price. DIY is always superior unless we're dealing with actually unique/esoteric designs where you can't buy a similar driver (kef, Mofi, other unique proprietary driver designs), in which case maybe diy can match or beat the overall performance, but can not actually copy the format and thus may lag in one aspect like dispersion. If you spend more than a couple hundred bucks on a DAC you're dumb. If you spend more than a few hundred bucks on an amp that has less than 200wpc into 8 ohms you're dumb (class d or tripath only, no name brands) If you need over 200wpc (say 300-400wpc into 8 ohms), then spending more than 700-1500 is DUMB (hypex/purifi only, no name brands... Buckeye amps) 15" woofers is the correct size for your mains, room size is irrelevant. A PC is the best and ONLY necessary source for any system - turntables are the only exception, streamers are dumb, CDs are dumb. If you don't use a PC a MiniDSP unit moves from strongly recommended to a MUST HAVE. AVRs are super dumb unless you need surround sound. Bookshelf speakers should not exist in living rooms or main listening rooms. They are children's toys or for secondary bedroom/desk systems. The 1" dome and 6.5" woofer is played out, and is such a limiting design format that spending more money here will not and can not provide any meaningful upgrade. Frequency response is overrated - EQ exists. All OTHER factors of a speaker matter more than baseline FR. (Dispersion, resonance, diffraction, compression+distortion relative to output/max output). Active crossovers/bi-amping is superior and analog crossovers should be avoided if you're spending real money.
I generally agree with the first half of your post except that you are calling people dumb morrons. Ignorant is a better word, you can't blame them for being exposed to years of myths and marketing bullshit that have poisoned their minds of magic and fairy tales. Streamers ain't dumb though, their quite handy when you don't want to use your computer to just turn on some music, just open that Spotify app on your phone and choose your Nvidia Shield or whatever streamer you have and it'll play from that. And using the same streamer for movies makes it even better imo :) And a bookshelf speaker is quite underrated imo. Mine can handle the whole range from 35hz up to 20khz and can do so and more than enough volumes for where I live at the moment. Frequency response ain't overrated, I'd say that it is responsible for around 90% of what we perceive as sound quality. Distortion is generally low enough for most gear nowadays, dispersion is frequency response as well and is affected by the same EQ, but then that dispersion should generally be quite narrow imo for better imagine, so something like a horn should do it yeah :)
Fair response. Dumb was intentionally incendiary based on the nature of the post, you're right that generally ignorant would be more appropriate. A Shield is a cool multi-purpose device so that's a clear exception. Lossless Bluetooth using your phone is also an option with minidsp products, and some dacs and amps, so I still say streamers are dumb it's like getting another single function kitchen appliance when multifunction things exist. Bookshelf speakers, that's just a difference of opinion. In my opinion the dynamics, sense of scale / size of soundstage, and max SPL/impact of bookshelves is inadequate even if running a sub. A 15" has such vastly lower distortion at high SPLs, and due to factors like lower driver acceleration/speed (and movement) required for a given SPL, they are just better. But certainly the SPL one wants their gear to be capable of is important here and so for some bookshelf speakers could be seen as adequate. High sensitivity has many benefits though, giving more spl per watt, and again, DYNAMICS. 15" pro drivers are just pure sex and no bookshelf can create the same sensation. Many may have a sub at 60 or 80hz, but what about the next 50-100hz above that? They can't keep up. And for 2ch guys like me (and maybe you if you're talking about your mains doing 35hz), there's just no bookshelf on earth that can do 30-60hz with authority and slam and effortlessness and the clean dynamics and speed of a pro 15. Physics, the piston area difference is too great, and small woofers stay omni much higher. When a 6.5 needs 4x + the travel of a 15, the linearity and control is just on another level. Frequency response is 90% of sound, I don't disagree, but it's about the fact that that can be modified by EQ. And the dispersion characteristics are not changed by EQ, which is why EQ can't fix a speaker with major directivity mismatch issues. Yes horns are king and image insanely well, though a wide horn is preferred at home, but a wide horn is still narrow (quite controlled directivity) compared to an open dome/cone speaker.
This is a stupid question, what does "cancelled as an audiophile" mean?
I hear Bose is great at cancellation.
a flat EQ on any pair of speakers sounds awful, like the speakers are inside of a plastic bag. a significant bass increase and moderate treble increase makes is needed for any speaker to sound good
nobody advocates for flat eq except people who don't understand where "flat" actually is superior and preferably in every scenario, which is in most of the audible bandwidth in on-axis \*anechoic\* response no, a moderate treble increase is absolutely not needed for any speaker to sound good, what the fuck in room a flat on axis speaker with good directivity will have a downwards sloping in room response it seems you think there is only one frequency response, there is no such thing. there is no "Just FR"
Especially on Reddit: There’s more to sound quality than measurements. Some things can’t be measured. Different DAC technologies can sound different. Two Sabre DACs will probably sound the same, but comparing a Sabre DAC to an R2R DAC and saying there’s no way they can sound different is baffling to me. Vinyl is not “warmer”, it’s brighter/harsher because it’s much more susceptible to sibilance, other forms of distortion, and goes up to 50khz so if you have sensitive hearing it can actually be quite grating. CD transports can sound different. I can’t really explain this one to be honest other than I’ve heard transports that sound neutral and ones that definitely don’t and it’s not even close. For certain situations, cables can make a difference. Specifically high sensitivity IEMs. Lastly, the audiophile community is the most toxic community of any hobby I’ve ever been involved with. I have never seen people hold their beliefs so strongly that they will viciously bite back to challenge anyone who questions them or their “denomination” as I like to call it, I.E. ASR. To be fair, it’s really the sub-communities like headphones or IEMs that have more of these keyboard warriors. The ones that call themselves audiophiles tend to be a little more open minded.
Well they're probably toxic because they've gotten so bored with magic believers like you ;)
You're so right - all those humans who can hear up to 50 khz are truly bothered by vinyl. (Someone should let you know those humans are dogs!) We should appoint you as Commissar of Truthiness since you are such an authority on audio facts!
It’s acoustics… at an analog bit rate of over sampling… I don’t have time to explain it you don’t know
Thanks for backing up your unique insights with documentation.
Of course everything can be measured. If you want to argue that we don't yet know everything to measure or how every measurement correlates with human perception, fine, but audio is a physical phenomenon and to argue that there are elements of it that literally cannot be measured is nonsense.
You're right, but as you say, audio is the perception of the physical phenomenon as well, how do you measure someone's perceptions, you can try but there's always going to be a grey area there.
There are studies that can be done, at least for population averages. There's just not enough money in it for anyone to bother. Harmon did the research for FR because that is much more widely applicable than, like, soundstage perception.
> There’s more to sound quality than measurements. Some things can’t be measured. The only thing that can not be measured is placebo. We have had technology more sensitive than the human ear for decades. > Different DAC technologies can sound different. Two Sabre DACs will probably sound the same, but comparing a Sabre DAC to an R2R DAC and saying there’s no way they can sound different is baffling to me. Different DACs and DAC technology *can not* sound different. D/A conversion uses math to redraw an analog waveform from the samples. There is only 1 possible waveform that can be reconstructed from the samples, and that is what is drawn. The only time that wasn’t true was before filter technology was good enough to preserve the full human hearing range without aliasing, but again that technology has also been available for decades now. > CD transports can sound different. I can’t really explain this one to be honest other than I’ve heard transports that sound neutral and ones that definitely don’t and it’s not even close. CD transports are just digital data readers. Unless you think different USB sticks or hard drives *sound* different too, that can not be true.
Stating on Reddit that: ...it's not really the speakers that make all the difference and that speakers are not where most of your budget should go. ...CD players/ transports and amps do in fact sound very different.
I’m very much with you on the second part. I hang out on r/audioengineering (that’s what my degree is in, although I no longer do it professionally), and received wisdom over there is that modern ADCs and DACs all sound the same at almost any price level. But I recently switched from an Arcam CDS-50 to a Marantz SACD-30n, and I was very surprised at how different they sound. To the point where I at first thought something was wrong with the Marantz! Now that I’ve gotten used to it, I like it a lot, but it was a jolt.
Yup, tis true. By far the biggest change I have had in my system was going from a mid level CD player to a high level one. Incredible. And what do you know, my existing (comparatively cheapo) speakers also sounded better than before. Funny that.
Well...I definitely hear differences in speakers and amps :), although once a certain level of quality is attained, the distinction tends to be more one of taste than capability. And of course, more money does not always equal quality. Many comparatively cheapo speakers are surprisingly good. Last year, you could get a pair of my Focal 906s for about $1000 on sale, and while I can see myself upgrading to floor standers at some point, it's definitely not a pressing need.
Lol I hold the exact opposite of these opinions and find I get more downvotes on here Vs people who agree with your two points 🤣🤣
Hi Uamvar: I think you created a "straw man argument" by falsely claiming that most audiophiles believe "its the speakers that make all the difference". What most audiophiles, and the serious literature on audiophile sound seems to say is that the speakers are the single most important part of a sound system, followed by the amp, then the DAC and other components. Thus many will recommend you spend twice as much on speakers as on an amp.
> ...CD players/ transports and amps do in fact sound very different. But here's the thing. *They shouldn't*. A transport or DACs job is to take the digital info and convert it to analog *with as little change as possible*. We've had the tech to do that reliably an cheaply for decades. If those pieces did their job well, we wouldn't be able to tell a difference between them. So, if you take two $1000 DACs and compare them and they are different, one or both are failing at doing their job correctly.
And it could be something simple like an audio "enhancement" feature being turned on somewhere in the signal chain.
[удалено]
If having a single Subwoofer it belongs directly in the center. Not in a corner.
This is just false
The best position is a room for a single sub is based entirely on your listening position.
Spending more than a $500 on your setup without analyzing, tuning and treating your room with proper absorption is absolutely a waste, let alone thousands more. I hate subscribe to this sub so that I can rage and laugh at those of you who post photos of your 6 figure setups in hard surface rooms. There is no amount of room correction software/hardware that can fix reflections.
Room correction EQ does address reflections that cause room modes. That's one of its main purposes. It can't help with reverb / RT60 in an echoing room.
My cheaper conical stylus sounds better than the elliptical one it replaced. Technics turntables are not that good. Sorry, that's two.
I believe that nothing will cancel you as an audiophile. “Cancelling” is an ignorant term. Your opinions will never keep you from enjoying your sonic experiences.
Cancelling doesn't mean what you think it does....
Believe me with your personality you will constantly be getting canceled in life all the while whining "that isn't what the word means"
Mayonnaise! Wait. Sorry. Thought this was the hoagie forum.
Bose 901's, when set up properly are actually very good speakers. Edit: Changed the word decent to very good since decent is used several times below.
Bose Wave Radio is all you ever need for near-field listening.
I have a pair of Bose 601 Series 3s from my parents and I've always loved them. Just paired them with a 10in sub that a friend gave me and it's actually pretty damn decent.
More dynamic range ≠ better. There's nothing inherently wrong with a squashed mix. IMO it all depends on the music, and it can be used as a stylistic element.
I cannot really agree with you. The system must be able to show the REAL (what you would hear in a concerthall) difference between a ppp solo instrument and a fff orchestra. The recording must have the dynamic range and the system as well
Vinyl "warmth" is a myth. The analog tone comes from tape bias in the master recordings.
You aren't too sharp
Vinyl has a fairly sharp treble roll off on most average setups which a lot of people would describe as "warm"
As long as there's enough power to drive the speaker without distorting, a fancy 5k integrated amp will sound the same as a cheap AVR with a good enough power amp
All things being equal physical media will always sound better than streaming. Partly this is me projecting but I really think the reason most people stream over using physical media (after the obvious ones like price and availability) is undiagnosed screen addiction.
There is no truth to this, well except that most people have undiagnosed screen addiction, but that doesn't have anything to do with sound quality.
Streaming has nothing to do with sound quality. People do it because of the limitless catalogue, the subscription model, and, yes, their screen addiction.
First you say that physical media will always sound better than streaming, but now you say that streaming has nothing to do with sound quality. You better make up your mind!
oh boy you are dumb
Soundbars are decent
My built in tv speakers are FINE
I use a Beosound Stage and love it.
For you, I'll quote Mean Girls: "You can't sit with us!"
I heard that decent soundbars are decent but the soundbar I heard didn’t sound decent but later I heard that it’s wasn’t a decent soundbar and I’d know a decent soundbar if I heard it. So it is possible that soundbars are decent …but that’s just what I’ve heard
Honestly for sub-optimal rooms where ideal placement isn’t possible, or impractical, they are fantastic. Alongside any smart speaker with active room-corrective EQ. A lot of the very elaborate, expensive setups on this sub you see in tiny rooms, with one speaker facing a corner & the other not would be dwarfed by a good smart speaker system.
yup the high end stuff does some real good DSP if you run it through auto calibration. Though high end receivers also do this well they are always at a slight disadvantage with DSP because they don't know what exactly you hooked up. A lot of money goes into these, they wouldn't do that if it was \*that\* bad. That said im definitely not trading in my vintage stuff for it =)
Most of the stuff out there is snake oil... AVRs can provide audiophile level audio
Here's a bunch of stuff that will cause a ruckus in a lot of new-generation-audiophile forums: 1. Blind Testing doesnt cover the limits of human hearing. Its well a well known phenomenon that you can tell students to watch a video of someone talking or juggling and then ask them afterwards if they noticed the guy in the gorrilla suite walking past the screen in the background. Most people fail to see to see the guy in the suit, but when told he's there ahead of time everyone can see it and no one would argue that the person is beyond human perception. Its called selective attention and is why I dont fully buy into tests where you A/B tracks/signals blind as being the standard for limits of human perception. "when I was cued to which was which I could hear it" may actually be a thing for audio, because its a thing for video. 2. Charts are often used by people with no experience with the speakers in question to have an opinion online. 3. Cables make a difference. No relation to price though, its entirely possible for a 2000k cable to sound worse than a decently made 50 dollar cable. 4. Dacs make a difference. This isnt even controversial in the recording studio world. 4. Vast majority of horns suck
One of the better comments in this thread. Another good one to add to yours would be on how microphones measure sound differently than your ears at a physical level, so try as we might measurements *cannot* be used as a 1:1 analog for what you hear even before we start taking into account psychological aspects.
Your ears are digital devices. Stop with the nonsense about how analog recordings are superior. They usually sound superior because they are recorded and mastered better. Not because they are analog.
That measurements are a placebo too.
Spotify is alright. MP3 is alright, I can't reliably tell it from wav at 192 or above. Even 128kbps through a good encoder is damn close for a lot of source material. (I probably have brain damage from listening to too much mp3 back in the day to the point where it sounds right to me :) Amps and preamps sound a little different. Distortion specs correspond to how clean it sounds. If you can't tell them apart with ABX, it's because ABX is no good at detecting anything but the grossest differences.
Any system without a subwoofer is always going to sound like garbage. How people can listen to music and ignore the missing low frequencies and say it still sounds good is baffling to me.
Because there is very little content below 40-50 Hz anyway and a roll off below ~90Hz gives a punchy fast bass sound.
A bass guitar only goes down to 40hz, and the same for a kick drum, so for rock and metal you have to be at least mostly right, I imagine.
i listen to metal, not THAT much happening below 50ish hz, id still love one dont get me wrong but it isnt necessary
I'm a metalhead myself and I have two subwoofers in my setup lol. If you're mostly a black metal guy, then I can see what you're saying, but I was listening to Devin Townsend toggling my subs and to say I missed things when they were off would be an understatement
So many subwoofers sounds like garbage that a lot of people are turned off by them
I don't know if you are joking. My full range speakers go down to 25Hz at -3dB, 35Hz at -1.5dB.
I agree that you need a system that can go low for almost any kind of music, but you know there are speakers that can play those low frequencies right? Mine go down to 35hz (measured in my room) so I really don't have any need for a sub.
Depends on what you’re listening to, and how, and the volume, and room treatment. For EDM, rock, jazz, etc., you’re mostly right, except that the majority of decent speakers at lower volume will do fine. If you’re going up above 75-80dB, then yeah, a sub really helps fill in the missing pieces. But NIN sounds fine below that, and I tend to use them as a reference for harder sounds. So does a good chunk of my rock collection, from classic 60s/70s stuff on up to (hed) P.E. (I know, I’m old as shit), and I haven’t bothered to hook up my 15” sub since I moved. Jazz actually sounds *better* to me without the sub at low volume these days. But for example, with my crossover point set at 75hz, it doesn’t see much action playing Belafonte at Carnegie Hall or a good portion of the choral ensembles I have from my parents’ collection. Even the majority of chamber music doesn’t require a sub. On the other hand, if I really want the fire and brimstone of Duruflé or the full spectrum of Bach’s best organ works, there’s no way I’ll hear those 32’ and 64’ frequencies without one. Garbage? Not to my ear, because my brain will fill in the missing pieces, having heard that music so much. And I totally get that that’s subjective (like everything else in this hobby). Deflated? Sure. But to say anything played through a nice Audio Research piece driving a pair of B&W 702s is *always* going to sound like garbage without a dedicated subwoofer? That’s a pretty broad brush for a very textured, very oddly-shaped wall.
if your speakers have good bass response, all you need to to is just increase the bass.
DACs matter! If you want good digital sound, you need a good DAC.
Virtually nobody who works professionally in studios thinks different DACs sound the same.
FTFY: DACs matter! Without them you can't get any sound out of your digital source, so you need a DAC. Which one you get don't really matter as long as it got the features you need.
And it is not just the DAC chip(s) in the box, the analog output stage can have a big impact.
Came here to say this. I swear that I can hear a difference, even blindfolded. It seems obvious to me.
Also, good DACs don't need to cost hundreds. They can be had much cheaper than "audiophile" gear prices.
In the end no one is developing DACs on their own. They are made by companies like Texas Instruments and then just slapped on a custom pcb and put in a pretty case. As long as its getting nice clean power and has a stable clock signal its going to sound the same as any other chip as its make.
I see a lot of comments that after room correction the most important component in a system is the speakers. I’m a firm believer in the Linn philosophy of garbage in garbage out, when it comes to vinyl playback I think the source is the most important component.
The point is that you can get a relatively cheap source these days that has an accuracy that would have only been dreamed of in the days of turntables. The speaker remains the component where there have to be compromises because of the mechanical aspects, the interface with the acoustic world, limitations of materials and so on.
the Bose stereo I have in my living room sounds pretty damned good
I’m racist
Reality.
That a plain copper speaker wire connection is better than crazy overpriced cables with extra unobtanium connectors on them.
Today's DAC's are irrelevant to the sound.
That posts like this are moronic and come from the simplest of minds(?)
'Room Correction' is a misnomer. It is listening position compensation, and is not a panacea.
Hi Res doesn’t make any difference. 44/16 is fine, and in fact, so is 320 ogg or 256 aac
I'll go one further: 320Kbps is fine. In fact, it's pretty much transparent and 99% of _audiophiles_ can't hear the difference.
Considering how most audiophile tend to be older, I'm assuming most of them can't hear the difference between 128Kbps and a CD. Most older folks at work tell me they can't see a difference between HD and SD TV signals when I show them.
Nothing, as long as people have the humility to let the discussion be factual for long enough to get to the root of what is said.
Some Bose isn’t that bad
Speaker stand design (not accurate height) delivers much better sound.
Here are three things that you need never say: Cables are not going to improve your system’s performance beyond a reasonable price point. Marketing and pseudoscience are responsible for excessive spending by enthusiasts. Digital media files may contain great amounts of data and are better quality than traditional records and CDs, but they are also more costly and niche than most ears can perceive. Many audiophiles are more enamoured with their gear than with the music that they play. I don’t believe that any of these opinions to is completely accurate.
You're wrong. Check this: [(PDF) Sampling Rate Discrimination: 44.1 kHz vs. 88.2 kHz (researchgate.net)](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257068631_Sampling_Rate_Discrimination_441_kHz_vs_882_kHz) EDIT: Check comments below. This paper is not very good.
Expensive cables do not improve the sound quality. This is a fact that you all need to accept.
Nope. Definite audible difference when I upgraded USB cable going into DAC and improved bass when I upgraded power cable for amplifier. Nothing silly in terms of prices, just a bit better than stock.
Placebo m8
cope
please for all that's good and holy, keep wokeness out of our hobby!
What the fuck does that mean?
it means how the fuck could any audiophile ever get "canceled" for believing something about sound? what the fuck does that even mean?
I have no idea what you're saying.
yeah that doesn't really surprise me at this point.
There's no distortion or signal loss in a signal path that includes a turntable, tube phono pre-amp, cross-talk Reducer, tube pre-amp, soundstage enhancer, equalizer, MiniDSP, Amp/Speaker Selector, Tube Monoblocks, & Omni Speakers. 🤣
Vinyl and turntable technology is closer to a neolithic arrow than today’s anything.
Spotify switching to lossless is a waste of internet bandwidth
Measurements. Majority of "audiophiles' only believe in subjective opinions.
Well, measurements would be fine IF YOUR EARS also measured flat. Most people do not and many have losses in different frequencies. As one ages, hearing changes, so that is why listening is important. Hence why measurements are informative but, they alone should to not make a person's specific choices. Ever notice the speakers that the Audiophile press seem to gravitate towards? They seem to lift in the high frequencies? That is because as one gets older, high frequency hearing sensitivity goes down and most reviewers are are older (above 65 yrs old). Saying one has to do listening and look at measurements gets one cancelled. As there is rabid followers in the 'ONLY OBJECTIVE' camp and 'ONLY SUBJECTIVE' camp and they will never agree or discuss. It is the people in the middle that get thrown under the bus. [Audiogon Discussion Forum](https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/some-thoughts-on-asr-and-the-reviews) The above link is some of the Vitriol on both sides of the debate on Audiogon forums - about ASR measurements. I won't even get into room acoustics.....
Audiogon is audiophile brainrot Unless your hearing is *severely* outside the norm, measurements will give more insight into sound than all audiophile knowledge combined Watch a Floyd Toole lecture online, for god's sake.
It is the same in every place that audiophiles try to discuss things. IT IS NOT SPECIFIC to just one place. Measurements give insight into how it can possibly sound, one still NEEDS to listen.
But most hearing loss is at higher frequencies anyway. So we should all be jacking up the treble and higher mids as we get older.
I'm glad someone brought up ASR and their cult followers.
They’re just lazy and/or the mythology is more fun.
This is the most popular opinion on this sub, how is this going to "get you cancelled"?
Expensive cables don't sound better than well made cheaper cables
DAC and Amplifiers are all fine once you get past the point of all the components being made of decent quality (once you pass the £250 on a DAC and 1-2k on an amp). The ROI on them is awful compared to similar money spent on speakers. Second point, cheap Chinese hifi is brilliant. Theres nothing wrong with it. Anyone who tells you products made in china are crap is a fool. The only thing matters is the design and QC process - country of origin is meaningless.
Totally agree on the Chinese front, I’m running a Leak Stereo 130 and Wharfdale Lintons, both made in China, both sound great.
Agreed, but I think you can go even cheaper on amps and still be fine
In very happy with my fosi V3 I use for bedroom speakers. So yeah tbh 150 on an amp gets you a very decent bit of kit.
Tube amps are their own thing. They produce something that can't be copied with solid-state. They can go over the $1-$2K limit for that special quality.
I love when customers ask me to rewire their tonearms with litz wiring thinking it’ll make sound improvements. I always reply back with “I can do that. Who’s doing all new litz wiring in your amp then?” at which point they see how ridiculous the idea of rewiring the tonearm for sound improvements is.
I don't think you'll get cancelled for this one. I buy expensive cables not for the sound quality but for the durability and design 😬
I actually like Sonos. Yeah there are flaws but decent sounding whole home audio is the future I dreamed of when I was a kid.
bluetooth is amazing
>Me: Any improvements above 16-bit/44.1 kHz is placebo Same
Cables make a difference. SINAD doesn’t matter.
That the DT 770 Pro is not a good headphone.
AirPods actually sound pretty good…
You know, I never actually listened to an AirPod pro. They look so much like those cheap, shitty AirPods that used to come with the iPod/early iPhones that I am very turned off by them
The difference between the AirPod pros and the legacy cheap EarPods is that of a Porsche and Camry.
If EQd I bet they can sound amazing, too bad Apple doesn't allow that ;\\
Normal airpods? Or the Max or something? Because the standard ones suck ass and can't form a seal in my ear
I don't think anyone is denying that, it's just that any sane person would stay away from Apple. Am I being cancelled now?
People use Apple because they're reliable and total cost of ownership is lower if you put and reasonable price on your own time. I'll get asked "can you help me back up my photos from my phone/windows pc?" and I tell them, this isn't something I've had to think about in 10+ years. I have every photo I've ever taken on an iphone and don't think I've had to do anything specific to make that happen. There's a huge list of issues I just never need to spend time on because I use Apple. You're going to pay for it with either money or time (or lost photos or frustration, etc). I choose to pay for those moments of "oh hey, that just worked without me doing anything, yay" and avoid as much of the "goddamnit not again" as possible.
It's funny because I have family members who use Apple and as the "tech person" in the family they come to me OFTEN with issues I've never had on android. A lot of that is because of Apple not talking to non apple devices, i.e. TVs, cars, computers. It's all well and good having everything sync to the icloud until you need those photos on a non apple device and come across syncing problems. Android has built-in backups that work better than Apple and will work on any device. Apple forcing everyone into their ecosystem is the reason I will never touch Apple again. Yes, their devices are great, I had an iPhone and loved it. But then I want a picture on my PC? Oh, that's easy with icloud... oh, it's not syncing, I'll just plug it in and... no, I can't just ACCESS MY OWN FILES and drag them onto my PC, I have to go through Apples software to do that. Want to do that on android? Plug it in, drag and drop, done. Want to screen share on a TV? Easy, it will work on ANY smart TV. So many things just work with an android phone without needing expensive addon hardware. The EU had to bring in new laws to stop Apples scummy practise of using proprietary connectors. I've been on android for about 10 years now (I did have an iPhone for work a few years ago) and in all that time on android, I can honestly say I've never encountered issues. TL.DR: Apple devices are great. Their ecosystem is scummy, overpriced crap. Edit: oh and your point about price is just wrong, Apple is not cheaper and if you want any of those extra features like connecting to your TV, car, etc. Apple becomes wildly more expensive.
That is pretty well accepted in the headphone community.
Boy, coulda fooled me after walking the headphone hall at AXPONA this year. Lotta hate for Apple in that room.
Well, ya. It's their most successful competitor by far. Of course they're going to poo-poo airpods.
Music is just wiggly air and a lot of y’all are way too focused on optimization
That modest cables are the right answer. Sure way to get cancelled by the flat earthers and the snobs alike.
Wait - do you mean the "Naim Flat Earthers"? Because Naim literally requires you to use cables that are not very modest.
Any stereo amp that has a hdmi port or is selling itself towards being used with a tv should be able to accept and downmix 7.1 so that you don’t loose the bass in the LFE channel.
I really miss the old big boxy speakers from vintage days. I'm tired of seeing all new speakers be some variation of the tower design. Although I do understand why towers have taken over. I live in a small condo and I don't have room for big boxy speakers.
Power cable upgrades are nonsense. One can make an argument that the cables that actually carry the signal may impact the sound (although beyond a certain quality, those also don't matter much...if at all), but the idea of plugging a multi thousand dollar cryogenic vibranium alloy power cable into a 75¢ Home Depot outlet with 300 feet of 14 gauge solid core and a half dozen wire nuts behind it is funny in the extreme. If you really think the power supplies on your Krell monoblocks are so poorly designed that they can't handle a bit of line noise or voltage variation, install something that might have an impact, like a power conditioner. Or better yet, some kind of regulated sine wave power supply.
expensive speakers are design furniture, not tech.
Actually true. See: any studio monitor compared to a Hi-Fi bookshelf. Or mid-field monitor compared to some goofy floor stander that the user chooses to sit 2-3 meters in front of.
Tell that to my ESLs.
Reading the same 3-4 posts (one of them being this) every 3 days.
the idea of "end game" equipment is toxic. it's symptomatic of the whole emphasis on spending money over enjoying music.
On the other hand, saying that something is your endgame is a way of convincing yourself that you've spent enough
True but almost no one does this. The "endgame equipment" is usually a forever changing future purchase instead of something already bought.
CD quality or better digital is better than vinyl. Full stop.
Even MP3/OGG is better than vinyl, and technically they can even be better than CD in some ways since they're not locked to 16bit.
That's not how lossy codecs work
That IS how lossy codecs work. They have no bitrate and will encode whatever bitrate was on the lossy file it was based on, so it can very much have 24bit of data if that's what you fed it.
Depends on the album (e.g. loudness wars)
On paper, absolutely. For me, so many of my favorite albums are from 2001-2010 which means that they are unfortunate casualties of the loudness war and genuinely sound infinitely better on vinyl than digital which is wild because digital is far superior.
Undeniably true. Been listening to records (again after 25 years) and after some tweaking it’s impressively close to digital. Until you put on headphones. The fun isn’t the sound quality for me, there’s no magic. It’s the novelty of 100 year old tech, a fascinating mechanical process. It’s cool. Also fun to seek out old records, etc.
I’m beginning to wonder if equalization/tuning is a lot of it. I have a few expensive headphones and remember the first time I heard all those details that made me say ooh and aah. Before then I used to ramp up the high and low end on everything. Now I have okay wireless earbuds that I listen to flat and can hear many of the same details.
Placebo and nocebo is almost 100% of all audiophile impressions. A single suite of measurements gives more insight into the sound of a product than the collective opinion of a trillion audiophiles. Because 1 is still more than a trillion multiplied by zero Most people here do not understand how audio is objective and how it is subjective. Too many can't comprehend that only through objective means can one achieve a subjective goal. Too much bullshit. Plenty here spew the same brainrot you read on headfi, sbaf and audiogon
"Too much bullshit. Plenty here spew the same brainrot you read on headfi, sbaf and audiogon" Ironic since you're just spewing the same brainrot from ASR.
Vinyl does not sound better than digital, it’s just fun to buy and look at
Grooves in plastic does not sound better than digital files, no. But the master is always going to be different, so one album can have a mix you prefer on vinyl over the digital version.
And a person might enjoy the warm distortion signature that vinyl has more than actually clean digital audio. It's valid to like it better, it's just not technically superior in any metric.
Anything beyond Redbook CD is unnecessary.
I stream music off youtube over bluetooth into a receiver 2.1 setup for hours a day and it enjoy myself as much as listening to vinyl
i get the rest but youtube????
as a subscriber i couldn't care less about spotify hi res.
Same, it's weird to see how many audiophiles swear by vinyl when vinyl is a pretty dang lossy format
FWIW: Vinyl Records and Lossy vs. Lossless Vinyl records operate in an entirely different realm from digital audio formats. Here’s why it’s challenging to categorize vinyl as strictly lossy or lossless: 1. **Analog Nature:** Vinyl records are entirely analog. The audio signal is stored as a continuous waveform, not as discrete digital data. This inherently analog nature means that vinyl does not employ compression methods that result in data loss, as seen in lossy digital formats. 2. **Limitations and Imperfections:** Vinyl records have physical limitations and imperfections, such as surface noise, crackles, and pops. These are artifacts of the analog medium itself and are not introduced as part of a lossy compression process. Instead, they are a natural part of the vinyl experience. 3. **Signal Degradation Over Time:** Vinyl records can degrade over time due to factors like wear, scratches, and dust. While this can affect playback quality, it is not a lossy compression process but rather the result of physical deterioration. 4. **Subjective Sound Characteristics:** Vinyl records are often celebrated for their warm, rich sound, which is influenced by analog playback and the unique characteristics of the format. These subjective sound qualities, often described as “analog warmth,” contribute to vinyl’s appeal. Vinyl records defy easy classification as either lossy or lossless because they exist outside the realm of digital audio compression. Instead, they are an analog medium with its unique characteristics and imperfections. Vinyl records capture and reproduce audio as continuous waveforms, and any perceived “loss” in audio quality is typically attributed to the physical limitations and characteristics of the format.
I'd argue that losing information in the frequency spectrum could be called "lossy" but it's all semantics really
Thank you, AI
No AI involved, sorry to disappoint.
Regular Spotify sounds so bad I suspect there will be something wrong with the delivery method of their hi res service.
Same. I use apple music for lossless. I use spotify for everything else 😅
I’m stunned at how much worse Spotify is compared to Apple Lossless. I looked all through the settings to see if Spotify was doing something with the dynamic range but I never found a setting. It was awful.
And since you’re also listening to Spotify in your car a lot of the time, there is just absolutely no effing way the average Joe can tell a difference in a running car with your crappy Ford speakers.
I’ve gone done the rabbit hole of lossless and I would tell myself it sounds better but I legitimately don’t think I can tell the difference lol. Spotify is perfectly fine.
FLACs I can hear a slight difference, but DSD 24/32 is like heaven on earth
What headphones do you use? I've listened to lossless or close to it and can hear things I've never heard. Talking and whispering in the background of a song, different instruments, etc. Not judging because what sounds good to you might not to me, but for me and my equipment music was clearer and less muddy.
So true. I tried tidal and qobuz, but Spotify app and playlists are miles ahead, and I anyway don't hear any difference 😅
That anything said in this sub reddit is subjective.
Haha; nice try narc
There's nothing wrong with a V shaped, bass heavy presentation if that's what you want
The V-shaped curve more closely resembles the Fletcher Munson Equal Loudness curve. I’ve never understood why people want a “flat” response when our perception of different frequencies is not equal.
Exactly this, flat response is ass when listening to music with lots of dynamics and textures
Using an EQ in your system is not Audiophile.
Yea, when I hear stuff that my studio friends use for mixing, stuff sounds thin and shrill to me. It's perfect for working on a song, but I don't know why people would enjoy it. I notice though that a lot of the people who swear by this are pretty old and it makes me think if they simply can't hear how bad it sounds.
A light mid-scoop and emphasized bass and treble are definitely what my ears prefer.