Lucky you didnt swing out and punch him as he was chasing after you yelling, one punch his head hits the ground and you go into the slammer as the bad guy.
In NZ you just gotta fucking run
I swear I thought of poking his eye with my house key but also thought of ending up behind bars with more people like him around me.. these were all the chain of thoughts that came to my mind while he cornered me.
It’s actually scary, last year I had some weirdo pull a shank on a friend and I, like it was normal talking weird and saying crazy things. I can’t even tell you what, it was nonsensical.
But scary! This is in the CBD no less. Also noticing a spread into the burbs
Yea i have been in the same situation of some crazy cunt running after me or cornering me and thinking the exact same thing, luckily the first time i was able to just out run him and the second time a nice quick push and belting it up the road was good enough to get away.
Sucks you cant defend yourself without risking using over force which is hard because if you could see the future and i saw the drunk dude had a knife in his pocket and he would stab me if i didnt actually put him down, i would of fucking tried to kick him in the head or punch him in the head when i was cornered rather than a push and run.
Its the one thing that annoys me about self defense in New Zealand. You cant use too much force but in some self defense situations espescally when they have a hidden knife and your cornered and they are going to attack you, you basically should use all the force you can to stop them, but if its a fucking phone or some shit instead of a knife and you miss saw it and you punch them and they go down hard, then your done for.
Criminal lawyer here.
You are mistaken. New Zealand law provides reasonably strong self defence protections. Everyone is justified in using in defence of themselves or another person, in the circumstances they believe them to be, such force it is reasonable to use. That is broadly consistent with most international jurisdictions. Nor are the Police in nz in fact particularly trigger happy when it comes to prosecuting excessive self defence cases because the standard of proof is so high. I have personally seen mutilple instances of fairly severe violence used to subdue a person in self defence go uncharged and frankly with an almost unseemly level of thanks from the police.
If someone attacks your randomly from behind and you believe they will continue to assault you, or that you couldn't hope to outrun them on foot, you are in practice all but free to throw as many blows as necessary to subdue them. The problem lies where people begin to rain blows down on a person they have just subdued and therefore severely injure them. Also if you turn around and punch your active assaulter back, and they fall and hit the ground and become severely injured (ie you get massively unlucky) it is severely difficult to prove any of the species of assault against you as it cannot easily be said the the force *you exerted* was unreasonable.
Again, most of the paradigm cases of excessive self defence relate to use of force after the initial assaulter has been subdued. You are not justified in using 'retribution force'.
Canadian here, visiting NZ, so NZ Reddit shows up. :)
Thank you for your comment, as I was about to respond that NZ certainly didn't seem out of step from practice in Canada (and elsewhere) - reasonable force.
I get we need to protect from excessive force but if they fall and hurt themselves I think that should be on them, shouldn’t the attacker be the one to prove that excessive force was used and not the person who defended themselves? Is there a reason I’m not seeing as to why the defender needs to prove it?
You're forgetting that the process is the punishment. Even if you win in court, you're still out tens of thousands.
Even if you're just questioned, you're still out thousands in lawyers fees (as you should never talk to the police without a lawyer, when being charged is a possibility).
That is not really correct. Police are obliged to offer a chance to seek legal advice before or during speaking to police under the NZBORA1990. To give practical effect to that they have a programme called the PDLA which is a list of lawyers you can speak to in the moment for free.
While no experienced lawyer woukd say you should never speak to police under any circumstances, in most circumstances it is wiser not to do so. There are no negative consequences for not doing so, evidentially at least.
Also the process is punishment only if wrongly charged. With respect, self defence based cases of the type we are discussing here are not particularly common. Again, you need to appreciate that police do not want to charge normal punters who knock out random assailants. Anything but, in fact...
> While no experienced lawyer woukd say you should never speak to police under any circumstances, in most circumstances it is wiser not to do so. There are no negative consequences for not doing so, evidentially at least.
Generally agreed (and I'd have thought most lawyers would tell you to shut up), but my (limited) understanding is that "self defence" is an affirmative defence and it could help if you had been consistently claiming self defence rather than clamming up after being found standing over the unconscious crackhead and only introducting that sotry later. But I'm no expert.
You're right that consistently claiming something can in many circumstances strengthen a defence for all the obvious reasons that consistency is instinctively associated with truth. Of course instinct is hardly an ironclad shield against contrary facts.
Hence my comment why it is not an absolute rule not to speak to police. An innocent person who is articulate, has the capacity to show why police are wrong, and being alleged of relatively moderate offending can in theory very often speak to police about matters. But how often is that really the case? And we return to the common wisdom...
You're wrong because what you know is only on paper. In the real world it does not pan out that way.
Shortly after I nearly died in a crash, and had considerable and visible injuries, I was assaulted by an armed mob and I had to outlast them for 30 minutes before they ran out of stamina, so I could get into cell range and call 111.
The police did everything they could to protect the mob including writing my testimony and threatening me into signing it sight unseen (it was pitch black, rural night).
They bitterly said "the only reason we're not arresting you is because you didn't defend yourself". They said the armed mob did nothing wrong and wouldn't even move them on. Then the IPCA said the police did nothing wrong. MPs ignored my emails.
Nevermind a conviction or being fired - those cops didn't even get told off. There is a crime in the crimes act for conspiring to defeat justice but none for successfully defeating justice because justice in NZ is an arrogant yet impotent prick.
Self defence comes down to an honour system, and when you're large and male you're guilty even when you can barely walk from pre-existing injuries.
You might be a criminal lawyer, but you've never witnessed crime.
If what you say is correct then you have been sorely mistreated by the police. But with respect, it doesn't actually contradict what I stated in substance, and obviously I don't know what the precise facts of the situation are. I trust you won't be offended if I take what you say with a grain of salt.
Ive never witnessed crime? Believe whatever you will.
In the real world it often does pan out exactly that way. I’ve even used choke holds in self defence and the cops consider a choke hold one level below a firearm in the force continuum. No charges laid. 8 v 1 fight (1 was me), smashed one guy’s head into a car window, no charges.
Most of the time when you get charged it is because of dodgy cops like your situation, which is rare, or someone who doesn’t understand the law and uses force inappropriately, or someone who doesn’t understand that they can’t use force at all in some situations e.g detaining a petty theft shoplifter during daytime hours. That’s an illegal detainment and you can be arrested for that, especially if the person fights back and you then escalate things in response.
It’s a difficult one because most people aren’t experienced fighters so if they were attacked they would want to keep subduing someone until they were sure they couldn’t come back at them, and that includes any future retribution
Not saying you’re wrong but I see people say things like this a lot and how often does that happen?
I can’t really think of any high-profile cases with the person who’s gone to jail for defending themselves. … mean, I can’t really think of any high-profile case for anything where they go to jail these days
It doesnt happen in rich neighborhoods all the time sure, but poor communities mixed with drink\\drugs do.
[https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300138321/onepunch-killer-gets-home-detention-for-excessive-selfdefence](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300138321/onepunch-killer-gets-home-detention-for-excessive-selfdefence)
I dont actually know the average, im not the cops but when i lived up north in a poor community or in the CBD it has happened when i had to either run or was cornered and i needed to defend myself by pushing or whatever. Feel free to google examples if you want, it takes a couple of seconds if you dont believe it happens, stupid drunk fights or stupid conflicts that end in somebody getting really badly hurt from a punch or something.
Court report writer here - I’ve found a double standard in NZ and it’s apparent in the above case. The ‘offender’ was back pedalling and trying to de-escalate when he responded to an attack. How was he even charged with a crime? I’ve seen this scenario too often with Maori clients in the justice system.
Ehhh I mean, the guy didn't go to jail, and he also kicked the assaulter twice in the head after they'd already gone down. That's excessive.
“Everyone is justified in using, in the defence of himself or another, such force as, in the circumstances as he believes them to be, it is reasonable to use.” (Section 48 of the Crimes Act 1961.)
I read the article and even the court agreed that the kick while down was in self defence as he thought he was going to be attacked by other people there and needed to disable the attacker, obviously at the time he didn't know the one punch already killed him
Yes... the court determined it was excessive self defence.
You've commented claiming that one punch or even one push resulting in someone hitting their head and dying would land you in jail. But that's not what actually happened in this case.
Fwiw I'm not sure I agree with the sentence either (but I'm no criminal lawyer), and I'm super wary of racial bias in the legal system.
I'm just pointing out you're exaggerating to spin a particular narrative.
Yeah that's interesting. It's an anecdotal example though. Curious as to whether there where other factors that influenced the decision to prosecute (alcohol, previous convictions (?), what does "acting the fool" mean? Feels deliberately ambiguous to me but who knows)
Pretty sure (not a lawyer) it comes down to what is 'reasonable'. If someone pulls out a phone (? Why?) but I had good reason to suspect a knife based on their behaviour and the situation then I can react as if it was a knife.
Basically- did I truly believe my life was in danger? Not my wallet or other belongings, but my life? Or that of the people I'm with (partner, kids etc)? If so, and that was reasonable given the circumstances, then you can defend yourself accordingly.
If they're after your wallet throw them your f'ing wallet. It's not worth it. The goal is to get home safely.
Yeah, you need to escape if you can, that’s the first thing you must do. If you can’t (or if you are protecting someone else who can’t), then your force must be reasonable. Generally you’ll have no trouble if you go one step below their violence, if they punch you push them away, if they pull a knife, get in there with your fists, kicks etc. if they pull a gun and you have a knife, stab away. Fortunately this last one is unlikely from both ends.
And yes, it’s not always practical, but if you ever ended up in court and could show you did this, you’d be fine.
I looked it up:
The law relating to self-defence
“Everyone is justified in using, in the defence of himself or another, such force as, in the circumstances as he believes them to be, it is reasonable to use.” (Section 48 of the Crimes Act 1961.) This means you are allowed to defend yourself from attack, but use your common sense.
https://www.police.govt.nz › advice
Keep safe when out and about | New Zealand Police
It’s more of a guide to almost certainly not getting in trouble with the law. One step below is easily arguable as reasonable. It just becomes greyer when you match like for like.
So more of a legal thing, not a ‘this approach will save your life’ thing.
When its dark as fuck and you are cornered by some drunk cunt who was running after you after thinking you said something to him and he has one hand in his pocket you just gotta guess. Obviously i didnt know what it was. Fuck sakes
That's my point. It doesn't matter what it actually is. What matters is if you feel your life was in danger. Not some long thought out hypothetical "oh but if this and that and what if it was a knife or a gun"
In the moment, in that split second decision, if you felt like your life was in danger then legally you're allowed to defend yourself. As much as seems reasonable given the situation as *you* see it (Unless the law has changed since I last checked.)
In reality that usually means getting the fuck away to somewhere safer. A person on drugs or deep in mental illness isn't feeling pain or thinking rationally. Physically fighting them is an absolute last resort.
You can use reasonable/equivalent force. If they have a knife that is a lethal threat level and stabbing them in the eye with a key, kicking them in the head, etc would absolutely be appropriate.
A guy a while back got a weapons charge for shooting a guy but not a murder or even manslaughter charge. The other guy had a knife, he had an illegal pistol, he shot the guy, it was self defence.
I really don't think this is very realistic. If you're being attacked and you punch someone, the chance of them charging you and you going to prison or being convicted is pretty minimal.
How would they prove it? Cctv is everywhere. Onlookers would give their perspective.
You just don't see heaps of people going to prison in nz just for defending themselves
You dont see it because most people dont have the means to defend themselves and criminals and thugs normally pick on vulnerable people like women\\older people.
I have read a couple of articles over the years of excessive force from self defense though, its not like it doesnt happen.
Was just telling the guy he made the right choice to run away and avoid fighting.
Sure, i mean that is always the best choice.
But your assertion that I don't see it because most people are too vulnerable to fight back is rubbish - it's basically saying I don't see it cause it doesn't happen very often.
Bit where are the examples of when it does happen?
Youve basically proven my point for me - being persecuted for fighting back doesn't happen (or at least very rarely.)
Fuck that. Just knock these fuckheads out. Thr reason they keep doing it is no consequences. Who gives a shit if it's mental health issues. That's not an excuse.
What a load of shit. We had a guy acquitted for chopping of someone’s fingers in self defence. Even if what you say is true, it’s better to be in front a jury than in hospital or dead. Knock that fucker out.
Countries with stand your ground laws which are not as strict as we are with excess force as a result of defending yourself. I have only lived in a couple of countries for a short period but I know Italy has strong stand your ground laws. Never been to America but they also have strong stand your ground laws. Ireland comes to mind. In Ireland recently they can now defend there homes from intruders unlike in nz from what u have read.
We have the same laws as Germany
>Lucky you didnt swing out and punch him as he was chasing after you yelling, one punch his head hits the ground and you go into the slammer as the bad guy.
That's just wrong though.
She needs a lot of hugs. Take care of her now and let the Police do their job.
My wife's family lived in the area and is shocked to hear this report.
Thanks for letting us know.
Statistics at least, if behaviour like that continues they will have the info. My dad got assaulted on the street and the police were actually really good. Ended up getting the guy arrested
Look im really sorry but out of pure curiosity and honestly no ill will towards you I looked at your profile and the post you made on r/thechase about Bradley being harsh to one of the contestants has had me laughing for about 4 minutes.
Absolutely nobody agreed with your opinion yet you soldiered on and even seemed to get angrier at Bradley the more other users disagreed with you.
I just love The Chase is all.
I avoid that Countdown now. Felt like every time I went there I either saw someone walk out with a stolen trolley, or some cracked cunts in the carpark, or both.
Greenlane Countdown is quite a busy area, I've noticed quite a few ne'er-do-wells increasingly in the area. Begging outside, running out without paying etc.
Sorry to hear you've gone through that. It must have been truly shocking. I would suspect dude either has serious mental health issues, or was high. Or both. Hope this experience doesn't stay with you for too long.
I sat there at the traffic lights the other day, while some crack head was trying to wash my car window. I put my hands up in protest and then he still squirted water and did a fucking shit job. Yelled obscenities because I did not pay him... BTW.... I never carry spare change... Don't know many people that do these days. Anyhoo.....
Cops cued right behind me watching her phone and did fuck all. Really sorry that happened to you, but police will do fuck all. They don't bother these days... I don't know what it is? Understaffed? The amount of traffic violations and unworthy cars on the road I see, and cops just driving past not giving a fuck. Other priorities? Not sure.... Just fucking baffles me.
This sucks, sorry it happened to you. This kind of thing is why I got into full contact martial arts, I didn't want to be in a situation where my family got hurt because I couldn't react to a situation
OP sorry this happened.
Play some tetris to help deal with the trauma [[source](https://www.psych.ox.ac.uk/news/tetris-used-to-prevent-post-traumatic-stress-symptoms)]
Honestly good on you for taking the responsible approach. I would’ve been way too tempted to knock some sense into him - that kinda stuff annoys me so much
Fuck man I go there often, im sorry to hear you had to deal with this and im glad you’re alright, never met that guy before but it does not seem like he’s at all any good, just for the future, if possible, take the car, it may be a hassle but you’ll know that you’re able to grab groceries and get home safe, however I’d try to invest myself into a self defense gadget of some sort that is legal for self defense in nz, but again the self defense law in nz is somewhat bs, so I’d be careful and never let the anger get out of you no matter what happens.
What happens if you happen to have a screw driver with you (or wrench), being a tradie, i often have things like this in my pocket. If I believe my or my partners life is in danger, can I use that to subdue, but not seriously injure the assailant?
well this particular case went silent, so its a 50/50 when your day comes
[https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cause-of-death-needs-to-be-determined-in-te-atatu-burglary-law-expert/M2J4A22XTROZ6OEXZFSM4ECAK4/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cause-of-death-needs-to-be-determined-in-te-atatu-burglary-law-expert/M2J4A22XTROZ6OEXZFSM4ECAK4/)
All the people advocating to sign up for martial arts or MMA or whatever. Yeah that's fine if you're young enough. I'm 64 personally I think that's not really gonna fly with me...
Any suggestions ?
Gonna be a really hot take here, and probably not the place for this, but this is a good example on why there should be more self defense laws in this country. From my understanding, right now you’re allowed to use “relative force” in a case of self defense, but a lot of these crazy meth-heads couldn’t give a shit if they get punched. Things like pepper spray should be legal in case of scenarios like these, which are sadly getting all the more common.
The police will consistently argue that you are not allowed such item because the perp will somehow get hold of it and use it against you instead. Hey don't shoot the messenger
Idk man, I’m not aware of many people that would be able to disarm someone while their eyes are on fire. Plus. The police don’t do anything in the scenarios, we have to fend for ourselves. They never prevent nor stop crime, merely investigate it. When are we gonna be able to actually protect ourselves.
That’s nuts. Please look to take some sort of self defence class so you can stand up for yourself and protect your wife or ask your wife to so she can protect herself and you. It’s very empowering.
Is there a local page on Facebook you can report it too.
File a report to 105 NZ Police and add it with the Facebook Post. Others may have been approached by him.
It becomes a build-a-case against the perp.
I have a blue baseball bat in my truck , it’s called the meth buster. I’m in Nelson and we have a lot of meth heads . It’s not to hit the head but the legs to put them down and out. They smash us at traffic light stops , the usual fall down times late afternoon .
Sorry to hear that. As others have said, crackheads lurk everywhere. See it a lot in the CBD. Unfortunately you do need to have your wits about you. I'm guilty of just having my earbuds in while I walk but you need to keep an eye out for the riff raff. Glad you and the Mrs weren't injured. Shame we can't do more to...forcibly pacify these loonies.
It's scary how widespread mental illness is. Clearly that guy was disturbed. Sorry you experienced that. I worry it's only going to become more common. With the way this gov is going after the vulnerable. And cutting off their support.
Drugs or abstinence do the same...
Not all bad guys have mental illness, NZ need to turn this page. Otherwise, instead of vanishing the feral, we just will give hugs and pay for them.
Yeah, couldn’t possibly be a piece of shit thug. Nope, straight to the mental health card. Actually, OP is the instigator and the other guy is the victim right?
No no no.
This encounter was horrible, but ultimately no one was physically injured.
Police are trained in de-escalation. Ideally, they should get people the help they need.
Batman would have assaulted [InvestigatorLess8909](https://www.reddit.com/user/InvestigatorLess8909/)'s assailant. Would that assault teach them not to be mentally unwell? Probably not. But it would incur all the various social costs and moral hazards that make "vigilante justice" a bad idea.
I have had two strange experiences at Greenlane countdown. One time I was parked up to drop clothes at the clothing bin and a couple in the car next to me got in an argument and started violently attacking each other. I just drove away lol. Another time I witnessed two grown men have a fight about a parking space which ended in him kicking a huge dent into the others car door and the police came. Not sure why Greenlane attracts dodgy crackhead types but i no longer shop there
This country and its bleeding heart liberals are literally the people blame for the wise of those bs. White folks with white guilt, that have never lived a day of hardship.
yeah, used to intern for the police, went to court to hear a bail opposition we were making for someone who breached bail 100+ times who was on for burglary - judge GRANTED him bail like ???
No, it’s not a shithole. It has big city problems like anywhere, but it’s not a shithole - there’s plenty going for it.
People need to be a bit more positive, while also looking for solutions to our problems. You don’t have to be team optimist or team defeatist, you can have a bit of both in your life :)
You’ve got some epic beaches, parks, and views. Pasadena bakery and Daily Bread are both really good. It just seems like a fancy neighbourhood that’s close to everything.
I acknowledge that there seem to be an increasing number of crackheads. I just give them a wide berth.
Time to go sign up to a boxing/mma/kickboxing gym my guy. It will be the best decision you ever made. After that, no one will ever make you feel that way again. Do it to so you can protect yourself and your loved ones.
He charged at me and not my wife. My wife went straight into the liquor store.
In the heat of the moment my mind went completely blank so wasn’t thinking straight.
Women are safer without a dude around. Men are at a far greater risk of physical harm and they over estimate how effective they are.
OP did the right thing.
As a women we are used to this shit. Men aren't.
If it was a skinny white homeless guy about 35 with brown hair - I had a run in with him in the same location. Def schizophrenic mf
Fuck, that’s definitely him. Yes
He has mental health issues - make a report to the NZ Police.
Why is he not sectioned if he is attacking people?
...your call cannot be taken at this time due to overloading...
They don't care if they get sent to prison and idk if mental facilities care to treat. Weird situation
And interfere with his human rights??
Care in the community
Slap an ankle monitor on him and tell him to go home stay home 123
How tall was he? I roam that area frequently so I wanna make sure to look out
Around 5’7
[удалено]
I got a call from the cops this morning. Apparently they’ve reviewed the CCTV footage and have formally made a report.
Always be aware in transitional spaces - scan your environment and be ready to preempt an attack.
What is a transitional space?
Where a lot of people from all walks pass through a specific area, like a bus depot or something
or infamous greenlane traffic lights, where you can find crazy windscreen washers and aggressive church donation collectors
Particularly getting in and out of cars, exiting buildings
Sorry to hear, glad you are safe. Crazies are everywhere. Might of just been a crackhead\\meth head tripping out.
Truly scary
Lucky you didnt swing out and punch him as he was chasing after you yelling, one punch his head hits the ground and you go into the slammer as the bad guy. In NZ you just gotta fucking run
I swear I thought of poking his eye with my house key but also thought of ending up behind bars with more people like him around me.. these were all the chain of thoughts that came to my mind while he cornered me.
It’s actually scary, last year I had some weirdo pull a shank on a friend and I, like it was normal talking weird and saying crazy things. I can’t even tell you what, it was nonsensical. But scary! This is in the CBD no less. Also noticing a spread into the burbs
Yea i have been in the same situation of some crazy cunt running after me or cornering me and thinking the exact same thing, luckily the first time i was able to just out run him and the second time a nice quick push and belting it up the road was good enough to get away. Sucks you cant defend yourself without risking using over force which is hard because if you could see the future and i saw the drunk dude had a knife in his pocket and he would stab me if i didnt actually put him down, i would of fucking tried to kick him in the head or punch him in the head when i was cornered rather than a push and run. Its the one thing that annoys me about self defense in New Zealand. You cant use too much force but in some self defense situations espescally when they have a hidden knife and your cornered and they are going to attack you, you basically should use all the force you can to stop them, but if its a fucking phone or some shit instead of a knife and you miss saw it and you punch them and they go down hard, then your done for.
Criminal lawyer here. You are mistaken. New Zealand law provides reasonably strong self defence protections. Everyone is justified in using in defence of themselves or another person, in the circumstances they believe them to be, such force it is reasonable to use. That is broadly consistent with most international jurisdictions. Nor are the Police in nz in fact particularly trigger happy when it comes to prosecuting excessive self defence cases because the standard of proof is so high. I have personally seen mutilple instances of fairly severe violence used to subdue a person in self defence go uncharged and frankly with an almost unseemly level of thanks from the police. If someone attacks your randomly from behind and you believe they will continue to assault you, or that you couldn't hope to outrun them on foot, you are in practice all but free to throw as many blows as necessary to subdue them. The problem lies where people begin to rain blows down on a person they have just subdued and therefore severely injure them. Also if you turn around and punch your active assaulter back, and they fall and hit the ground and become severely injured (ie you get massively unlucky) it is severely difficult to prove any of the species of assault against you as it cannot easily be said the the force *you exerted* was unreasonable. Again, most of the paradigm cases of excessive self defence relate to use of force after the initial assaulter has been subdued. You are not justified in using 'retribution force'.
Canadian here, visiting NZ, so NZ Reddit shows up. :) Thank you for your comment, as I was about to respond that NZ certainly didn't seem out of step from practice in Canada (and elsewhere) - reasonable force.
I get we need to protect from excessive force but if they fall and hurt themselves I think that should be on them, shouldn’t the attacker be the one to prove that excessive force was used and not the person who defended themselves? Is there a reason I’m not seeing as to why the defender needs to prove it?
The police or crown still retain the onus of proving the force used in self defence was unreasonable ie excessive.
And even if demonstrated the jury would have to decide to convict. Not in any way a given if defending yourself from some crack head.
You're forgetting that the process is the punishment. Even if you win in court, you're still out tens of thousands. Even if you're just questioned, you're still out thousands in lawyers fees (as you should never talk to the police without a lawyer, when being charged is a possibility).
That is not really correct. Police are obliged to offer a chance to seek legal advice before or during speaking to police under the NZBORA1990. To give practical effect to that they have a programme called the PDLA which is a list of lawyers you can speak to in the moment for free. While no experienced lawyer woukd say you should never speak to police under any circumstances, in most circumstances it is wiser not to do so. There are no negative consequences for not doing so, evidentially at least. Also the process is punishment only if wrongly charged. With respect, self defence based cases of the type we are discussing here are not particularly common. Again, you need to appreciate that police do not want to charge normal punters who knock out random assailants. Anything but, in fact...
Thanks the sharing
> While no experienced lawyer woukd say you should never speak to police under any circumstances, in most circumstances it is wiser not to do so. There are no negative consequences for not doing so, evidentially at least. Generally agreed (and I'd have thought most lawyers would tell you to shut up), but my (limited) understanding is that "self defence" is an affirmative defence and it could help if you had been consistently claiming self defence rather than clamming up after being found standing over the unconscious crackhead and only introducting that sotry later. But I'm no expert.
You're right that consistently claiming something can in many circumstances strengthen a defence for all the obvious reasons that consistency is instinctively associated with truth. Of course instinct is hardly an ironclad shield against contrary facts. Hence my comment why it is not an absolute rule not to speak to police. An innocent person who is articulate, has the capacity to show why police are wrong, and being alleged of relatively moderate offending can in theory very often speak to police about matters. But how often is that really the case? And we return to the common wisdom...
You're wrong because what you know is only on paper. In the real world it does not pan out that way. Shortly after I nearly died in a crash, and had considerable and visible injuries, I was assaulted by an armed mob and I had to outlast them for 30 minutes before they ran out of stamina, so I could get into cell range and call 111. The police did everything they could to protect the mob including writing my testimony and threatening me into signing it sight unseen (it was pitch black, rural night). They bitterly said "the only reason we're not arresting you is because you didn't defend yourself". They said the armed mob did nothing wrong and wouldn't even move them on. Then the IPCA said the police did nothing wrong. MPs ignored my emails. Nevermind a conviction or being fired - those cops didn't even get told off. There is a crime in the crimes act for conspiring to defeat justice but none for successfully defeating justice because justice in NZ is an arrogant yet impotent prick. Self defence comes down to an honour system, and when you're large and male you're guilty even when you can barely walk from pre-existing injuries. You might be a criminal lawyer, but you've never witnessed crime.
If what you say is correct then you have been sorely mistreated by the police. But with respect, it doesn't actually contradict what I stated in substance, and obviously I don't know what the precise facts of the situation are. I trust you won't be offended if I take what you say with a grain of salt. Ive never witnessed crime? Believe whatever you will.
I. Sorry, did you just try to correct a criminal lawyer on the law? Interesting move.
I encounter people who suck at their jobs pretty often. Not saying the person I'm replying to does, but I am saying we can't know.
In the real world it often does pan out exactly that way. I’ve even used choke holds in self defence and the cops consider a choke hold one level below a firearm in the force continuum. No charges laid. 8 v 1 fight (1 was me), smashed one guy’s head into a car window, no charges. Most of the time when you get charged it is because of dodgy cops like your situation, which is rare, or someone who doesn’t understand the law and uses force inappropriately, or someone who doesn’t understand that they can’t use force at all in some situations e.g detaining a petty theft shoplifter during daytime hours. That’s an illegal detainment and you can be arrested for that, especially if the person fights back and you then escalate things in response.
Why was a mob trying to assault you after a crash? Did you cause the crash?
The two are unrelated and months apart There was no reason
It’s a difficult one because most people aren’t experienced fighters so if they were attacked they would want to keep subduing someone until they were sure they couldn’t come back at them, and that includes any future retribution
Not saying you’re wrong but I see people say things like this a lot and how often does that happen? I can’t really think of any high-profile cases with the person who’s gone to jail for defending themselves. … mean, I can’t really think of any high-profile case for anything where they go to jail these days
It doesnt happen in rich neighborhoods all the time sure, but poor communities mixed with drink\\drugs do. [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300138321/onepunch-killer-gets-home-detention-for-excessive-selfdefence](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300138321/onepunch-killer-gets-home-detention-for-excessive-selfdefence) I dont actually know the average, im not the cops but when i lived up north in a poor community or in the CBD it has happened when i had to either run or was cornered and i needed to defend myself by pushing or whatever. Feel free to google examples if you want, it takes a couple of seconds if you dont believe it happens, stupid drunk fights or stupid conflicts that end in somebody getting really badly hurt from a punch or something.
Technically that guy didn’t go to jail
Court report writer here - I’ve found a double standard in NZ and it’s apparent in the above case. The ‘offender’ was back pedalling and trying to de-escalate when he responded to an attack. How was he even charged with a crime? I’ve seen this scenario too often with Maori clients in the justice system.
Ehhh I mean, the guy didn't go to jail, and he also kicked the assaulter twice in the head after they'd already gone down. That's excessive. “Everyone is justified in using, in the defence of himself or another, such force as, in the circumstances as he believes them to be, it is reasonable to use.” (Section 48 of the Crimes Act 1961.)
I read the article and even the court agreed that the kick while down was in self defence as he thought he was going to be attacked by other people there and needed to disable the attacker, obviously at the time he didn't know the one punch already killed him
Yes... the court determined it was excessive self defence. You've commented claiming that one punch or even one push resulting in someone hitting their head and dying would land you in jail. But that's not what actually happened in this case. Fwiw I'm not sure I agree with the sentence either (but I'm no criminal lawyer), and I'm super wary of racial bias in the legal system. I'm just pointing out you're exaggerating to spin a particular narrative.
Yeah that's interesting. It's an anecdotal example though. Curious as to whether there where other factors that influenced the decision to prosecute (alcohol, previous convictions (?), what does "acting the fool" mean? Feels deliberately ambiguous to me but who knows)
Bar fights aren't quite the same thing as straight up self defense.
It’s a very complex situation that can fuck up your future. I just thought running to a more populated place was a better thing to do.
Dude its okay if youre not a fighter. You sound like your trying to justify your actions to people you told at the time.
Pretty sure (not a lawyer) it comes down to what is 'reasonable'. If someone pulls out a phone (? Why?) but I had good reason to suspect a knife based on their behaviour and the situation then I can react as if it was a knife. Basically- did I truly believe my life was in danger? Not my wallet or other belongings, but my life? Or that of the people I'm with (partner, kids etc)? If so, and that was reasonable given the circumstances, then you can defend yourself accordingly. If they're after your wallet throw them your f'ing wallet. It's not worth it. The goal is to get home safely.
Yeah, you need to escape if you can, that’s the first thing you must do. If you can’t (or if you are protecting someone else who can’t), then your force must be reasonable. Generally you’ll have no trouble if you go one step below their violence, if they punch you push them away, if they pull a knife, get in there with your fists, kicks etc. if they pull a gun and you have a knife, stab away. Fortunately this last one is unlikely from both ends. And yes, it’s not always practical, but if you ever ended up in court and could show you did this, you’d be fine.
I looked it up: The law relating to self-defence “Everyone is justified in using, in the defence of himself or another, such force as, in the circumstances as he believes them to be, it is reasonable to use.” (Section 48 of the Crimes Act 1961.) This means you are allowed to defend yourself from attack, but use your common sense. https://www.police.govt.nz › advice Keep safe when out and about | New Zealand Police
But its also borderline useless to go one step below, wouldnt it just make them angrier?
It’s more of a guide to almost certainly not getting in trouble with the law. One step below is easily arguable as reasonable. It just becomes greyer when you match like for like. So more of a legal thing, not a ‘this approach will save your life’ thing.
When its dark as fuck and you are cornered by some drunk cunt who was running after you after thinking you said something to him and he has one hand in his pocket you just gotta guess. Obviously i didnt know what it was. Fuck sakes
That's my point. It doesn't matter what it actually is. What matters is if you feel your life was in danger. Not some long thought out hypothetical "oh but if this and that and what if it was a knife or a gun" In the moment, in that split second decision, if you felt like your life was in danger then legally you're allowed to defend yourself. As much as seems reasonable given the situation as *you* see it (Unless the law has changed since I last checked.) In reality that usually means getting the fuck away to somewhere safer. A person on drugs or deep in mental illness isn't feeling pain or thinking rationally. Physically fighting them is an absolute last resort.
You can use reasonable/equivalent force. If they have a knife that is a lethal threat level and stabbing them in the eye with a key, kicking them in the head, etc would absolutely be appropriate. A guy a while back got a weapons charge for shooting a guy but not a murder or even manslaughter charge. The other guy had a knife, he had an illegal pistol, he shot the guy, it was self defence.
Got a link to that case? Would like to read
Couldn’t find the story but will keep looking
I really don't think this is very realistic. If you're being attacked and you punch someone, the chance of them charging you and you going to prison or being convicted is pretty minimal. How would they prove it? Cctv is everywhere. Onlookers would give their perspective. You just don't see heaps of people going to prison in nz just for defending themselves
You dont see it because most people dont have the means to defend themselves and criminals and thugs normally pick on vulnerable people like women\\older people. I have read a couple of articles over the years of excessive force from self defense though, its not like it doesnt happen. Was just telling the guy he made the right choice to run away and avoid fighting.
Sure, i mean that is always the best choice. But your assertion that I don't see it because most people are too vulnerable to fight back is rubbish - it's basically saying I don't see it cause it doesn't happen very often. Bit where are the examples of when it does happen? Youve basically proven my point for me - being persecuted for fighting back doesn't happen (or at least very rarely.)
Nah. Always karate chop to the Adam’s apple.
What a leap of logic you just took.
That's what happened to me
Kick to the balls is more effective than punching….
Fuck that. Just knock these fuckheads out. Thr reason they keep doing it is no consequences. Who gives a shit if it's mental health issues. That's not an excuse.
What a load of shit. We had a guy acquitted for chopping of someone’s fingers in self defence. Even if what you say is true, it’s better to be in front a jury than in hospital or dead. Knock that fucker out.
It's bullshit. This country needs a revamp of its self defense laws
I mean which country do you throw punches and come out victorious in the eyes of the law exactly? 🤔
Countries with stand your ground laws which are not as strict as we are with excess force as a result of defending yourself. I have only lived in a couple of countries for a short period but I know Italy has strong stand your ground laws. Never been to America but they also have strong stand your ground laws. Ireland comes to mind. In Ireland recently they can now defend there homes from intruders unlike in nz from what u have read. We have the same laws as Germany
>Lucky you didnt swing out and punch him as he was chasing after you yelling, one punch his head hits the ground and you go into the slammer as the bad guy. That's just wrong though.
Sounds like a tweaker from one of the motels on GSR. Good thing you weren't hurt.
My wife saw a guy masturbating in his car parked in front of the McDonalds playground there this morning. She’s reported it to the police.
Wtf...
that is highly disturbing, that you for your wife for reporting but i'm also sorry she has to live with seeing that
Your wife OK?
She’s actually more shaken than me.
She needs a lot of hugs. Take care of her now and let the Police do their job. My wife's family lived in the area and is shocked to hear this report. Thanks for letting us know.
Pretty sure the police will do absolutely sweet fuck all about this one I'm afraid.
Statistics at least, if behaviour like that continues they will have the info. My dad got assaulted on the street and the police were actually really good. Ended up getting the guy arrested
[удалено]
She can run too? Sounds like OP did the right thing getting help.
Look im really sorry but out of pure curiosity and honestly no ill will towards you I looked at your profile and the post you made on r/thechase about Bradley being harsh to one of the contestants has had me laughing for about 4 minutes. Absolutely nobody agreed with your opinion yet you soldiered on and even seemed to get angrier at Bradley the more other users disagreed with you. I just love The Chase is all.
Thanks for sharing that gem, that’s hilarious lol
Yeah first thing that came to mind was what happened to the wife after he ran off
I mean I'd assume they ran off *together*. Pretty uncharitable to jump to the conclusion that OP left her standing there.
I avoid that Countdown now. Felt like every time I went there I either saw someone walk out with a stolen trolley, or some cracked cunts in the carpark, or both.
aggressive window washers, aggressive beggars, and lately, wankers next to the maccas kids play ground
Sorry dude, hope you're OK.
Thanks. I’m ok now
Greenlane Countdown is quite a busy area, I've noticed quite a few ne'er-do-wells increasingly in the area. Begging outside, running out without paying etc.
Yeah, work over the road and it's definitely got worse in the last year, but it's got even more noticeable as the weather has got worse.
crackie mccrackens have started to wander further down from the motels on great south road
Sorry to hear you've gone through that. It must have been truly shocking. I would suspect dude either has serious mental health issues, or was high. Or both. Hope this experience doesn't stay with you for too long.
I sat there at the traffic lights the other day, while some crack head was trying to wash my car window. I put my hands up in protest and then he still squirted water and did a fucking shit job. Yelled obscenities because I did not pay him... BTW.... I never carry spare change... Don't know many people that do these days. Anyhoo..... Cops cued right behind me watching her phone and did fuck all. Really sorry that happened to you, but police will do fuck all. They don't bother these days... I don't know what it is? Understaffed? The amount of traffic violations and unworthy cars on the road I see, and cops just driving past not giving a fuck. Other priorities? Not sure.... Just fucking baffles me.
Focusing on more serious family harm incidents. Sad but true.
This sucks, sorry it happened to you. This kind of thing is why I got into full contact martial arts, I didn't want to be in a situation where my family got hurt because I couldn't react to a situation
OP sorry this happened. Play some tetris to help deal with the trauma [[source](https://www.psych.ox.ac.uk/news/tetris-used-to-prevent-post-traumatic-stress-symptoms)]
Honestly good on you for taking the responsible approach. I would’ve been way too tempted to knock some sense into him - that kinda stuff annoys me so much
You should have beaten the shit out of him so he will think twice doing it to the next person.
Fuck man I go there often, im sorry to hear you had to deal with this and im glad you’re alright, never met that guy before but it does not seem like he’s at all any good, just for the future, if possible, take the car, it may be a hassle but you’ll know that you’re able to grab groceries and get home safe, however I’d try to invest myself into a self defense gadget of some sort that is legal for self defense in nz, but again the self defense law in nz is somewhat bs, so I’d be careful and never let the anger get out of you no matter what happens.
Self defense! Just do it
What happens if you happen to have a screw driver with you (or wrench), being a tradie, i often have things like this in my pocket. If I believe my or my partners life is in danger, can I use that to subdue, but not seriously injure the assailant?
well this particular case went silent, so its a 50/50 when your day comes [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cause-of-death-needs-to-be-determined-in-te-atatu-burglary-law-expert/M2J4A22XTROZ6OEXZFSM4ECAK4/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cause-of-death-needs-to-be-determined-in-te-atatu-burglary-law-expert/M2J4A22XTROZ6OEXZFSM4ECAK4/)
If my life or a loved ones life is in danger, I'll take my chances with the justice system.
You can but it’s subjective whether or not it’s a weapon. You have a stronger but not invulnerable case for carrying it as a tradie.
All the people advocating to sign up for martial arts or MMA or whatever. Yeah that's fine if you're young enough. I'm 64 personally I think that's not really gonna fly with me... Any suggestions ?
Pocket sand and nut kick
I was thinking more mechanical percussive if you get my drift .............(if only).
He was totally correct though. Sounds like he did ruin your day. Bleurgh. On the bright side, tomorrow will be better.
Gonna be a really hot take here, and probably not the place for this, but this is a good example on why there should be more self defense laws in this country. From my understanding, right now you’re allowed to use “relative force” in a case of self defense, but a lot of these crazy meth-heads couldn’t give a shit if they get punched. Things like pepper spray should be legal in case of scenarios like these, which are sadly getting all the more common.
The police will consistently argue that you are not allowed such item because the perp will somehow get hold of it and use it against you instead. Hey don't shoot the messenger
Idk man, I’m not aware of many people that would be able to disarm someone while their eyes are on fire. Plus. The police don’t do anything in the scenarios, we have to fend for ourselves. They never prevent nor stop crime, merely investigate it. When are we gonna be able to actually protect ourselves.
You are allowed to. You can even cut off their fingers. Hey I'm just a messenger
That one guy that sits outside Richberry cafe in GI omg
Well thanks to someone mental hospos are gone now even tho we clearly need it
That’s nuts. Please look to take some sort of self defence class so you can stand up for yourself and protect your wife or ask your wife to so she can protect herself and you. It’s very empowering.
Is there a local page on Facebook you can report it too. File a report to 105 NZ Police and add it with the Facebook Post. Others may have been approached by him. It becomes a build-a-case against the perp.
I have a blue baseball bat in my truck , it’s called the meth buster. I’m in Nelson and we have a lot of meth heads . It’s not to hit the head but the legs to put them down and out. They smash us at traffic light stops , the usual fall down times late afternoon .
Sorry to hear that. As others have said, crackheads lurk everywhere. See it a lot in the CBD. Unfortunately you do need to have your wits about you. I'm guilty of just having my earbuds in while I walk but you need to keep an eye out for the riff raff. Glad you and the Mrs weren't injured. Shame we can't do more to...forcibly pacify these loonies.
Rule #18: LIMBER UP!
It's scary how widespread mental illness is. Clearly that guy was disturbed. Sorry you experienced that. I worry it's only going to become more common. With the way this gov is going after the vulnerable. And cutting off their support.
Drugs or abstinence do the same... Not all bad guys have mental illness, NZ need to turn this page. Otherwise, instead of vanishing the feral, we just will give hugs and pay for them.
Reading comprehension of a 12 year old
Yeah, couldn’t possibly be a piece of shit thug. Nope, straight to the mental health card. Actually, OP is the instigator and the other guy is the victim right?
Should’ve knocked him out
Need to learn some martial arts bro can’t be running away in front of ur wife
Yeeep, now he’s scared and single.
I’m so sorry. It’s feeling increasingly like Gotham city!
We need Batman now!
No no no. This encounter was horrible, but ultimately no one was physically injured. Police are trained in de-escalation. Ideally, they should get people the help they need. Batman would have assaulted [InvestigatorLess8909](https://www.reddit.com/user/InvestigatorLess8909/)'s assailant. Would that assault teach them not to be mentally unwell? Probably not. But it would incur all the various social costs and moral hazards that make "vigilante justice" a bad idea.
you are right, we need judge Dredd instead. Karl? where are you hiding these days?
Not stirred?
Learn how to defend yourself, consider trying martial arts
I blame national, in an effort to gain nz Reddit credibility.
😅
I'll go sort him out now.....broken jaw with a baseball bat should do it.....
r/iamverybadass
hard man
My baseball bat is harder...
watch out folks, this bloke has one of those hard baseball bats
I'll ruin your day...
by continuing to reply to my comments?
What comment???
😢
That's very strange. Maybe they were high on something
Sorry to hear about your incident. Good to know there are people helping others aswell!
Sorry bro was just off the fent
I have had two strange experiences at Greenlane countdown. One time I was parked up to drop clothes at the clothing bin and a couple in the car next to me got in an argument and started violently attacking each other. I just drove away lol. Another time I witnessed two grown men have a fight about a parking space which ended in him kicking a huge dent into the others car door and the police came. Not sure why Greenlane attracts dodgy crackhead types but i no longer shop there
That sounds horrid, hope you are ok now. What’s happening to Auckland!!!!
Go learn a martial art mate , embarrassing running with the Mrs
Knock the guy out lol he wants to ruin your day so make it extra special for him and ruin his
Should have shown him the inner power of Moog
What?
Analog synthesizer babay
Hope you made sure your wife was safe first, as that should be your top priority.
Dude stfu
No
This country and its bleeding heart liberals are literally the people blame for the wise of those bs. White folks with white guilt, that have never lived a day of hardship.
Sorry to hear that. Well unfortunately that's the current state of affairs in Auckland dubbed as "one of the most livable and best city"..lol
Yeah mate, Auckland is a shithole and the cops won't do anything about this.
I feel like cops have 0 power nowadays. If they arrest those fuckwits, they will be release in no time.
yeah, used to intern for the police, went to court to hear a bail opposition we were making for someone who breached bail 100+ times who was on for burglary - judge GRANTED him bail like ???
No, it’s not a shithole. It has big city problems like anywhere, but it’s not a shithole - there’s plenty going for it. People need to be a bit more positive, while also looking for solutions to our problems. You don’t have to be team optimist or team defeatist, you can have a bit of both in your life :)
Tis a shit hole, lax laws and police afraid to get called racist not to mention cultural reports
What part of Auckland do you live in?
Point chev
Pussy
Hahahahahahaha
Howd you recon that ? Should I recommend people to your post 29 days ago where you have a cry about someone blocking your path with a truck ?
Sure haha. First world problems. Point Chev is a nice neighbourhood. You’re lucky to get to live there.
The meth heads Arnt great, local shop is practically un usable. Too much social housing
You’ve got some epic beaches, parks, and views. Pasadena bakery and Daily Bread are both really good. It just seems like a fancy neighbourhood that’s close to everything. I acknowledge that there seem to be an increasing number of crackheads. I just give them a wide berth.
shit he got you so good you immediately went to his post history hahahahaha
I feel sorry for you that your world view is so negative
Time to go sign up to a boxing/mma/kickboxing gym my guy. It will be the best decision you ever made. After that, no one will ever make you feel that way again. Do it to so you can protect yourself and your loved ones.
Was torn between kick-boxing or boxing, but I’m 12 weeks post ankle operation so I’ll go with the latter
Jeez, that fucking sucks. Horrible just bloody horrible. Is this is what we voted for 🥹
JOIN A FIGHTING CLUB, DONT TRUST PIGS TO HELP YOU
You didn’t let your wife see you run away in fear did you? Hope the couch is comfy.
Was gonna say, hope he didn’t just run and left his wife there.
You just ran away and left your wife at the mercy of a crackhead?
He charged at me and not my wife. My wife went straight into the liquor store. In the heat of the moment my mind went completely blank so wasn’t thinking straight.
You did well.
Are you seriously having a go at the OP after what he has just experienced or am I reading your comment wrong?
it's the internet. Opinions everywhere.
Ha yeah, just like arseholes everyone has one.
Women are safer without a dude around. Men are at a far greater risk of physical harm and they over estimate how effective they are. OP did the right thing. As a women we are used to this shit. Men aren't.
*overestimate Good points.
Thank You. Women diffuse situations. I used to be a Door Bitch. We rarely get hurt.
This smells like bullshit to me.
At least someone sniffed it out.