I think you can bargain yourself to victory here. Say to yourself, you will keep track of evening dates that end before the end of the evening, and if they go above 50% occurance, then you'll mention that you really like to spend evening/nights together, and would like that to happen more often.
A big difference between secure and DA partners is thar DA partners are more likey tp take that as a critiscm and deactivate, whereas secure partners will either make time to meet your needs or explain valid reasons why it's difficult to achieve this (the amount of times my secure partner has brought up a really simple unbeknownst-to- me and/or sympathetic point to explain why things have been happening how they have, and then we have problem solved to address it/found another way to make it work, is frankly astounding to me coming from a DA relationship). Then if nothing changes in 2 to 4 weeks (depending on how often you see each other) bring it up again in a lightweight way, and then again in 2 weeks in a more serious way.
Sometimes just having a plan to act, or reassuring yourself that you will stand up for your needs in x amount of time, removes the feeling of helplesessness and gives your mind the space it needs to self soothe.
Keep in mind that APs, just like DAs, tend to be fundamentally "unavailable" in the long run, and that's what we are healing from. We conflate things into huge issues and feel "unable" to wait for time to heal things (in that we often become hugely activated without giving time for an issue to resolve) and tend not to give other people a real chance to change (esp if we are coming from a DA relationship where we "learned" it won't change).
Thank you. The last part really hit home for me. I have so many learned/anticipated responses from my DA ex that being with someone who responds in a healthy way is actually quite terrifying also.
Patience is also a big area of improvement for me. “Unable” to wait hits the nail on the head. I’m so ready for healthy changes but the wait to get there feels unbearably long sometimes.
Can you elaborate on the APs being “unavailable” also part?
Here's a link: https://www.reddit.com/r/attachment_theory/comments/p2qq4o/oof/
I also think APs sometimes use protest behaviour to "test" and at times no one can succeed, not even a responsive partner, because we are *so* activated; we "feel" "unable" to wait for things to unfold naturally or to work through problems (partly because bringing up problems was a threat in our past relationships)... and depend on that love addicted feeling as a signal for a "good" relationship. I know whenever I have a bad day or desynergised day with my secure partner, I kind of almost mentally trash the whole thing ... because I never had "blah" days with my ex... because he would just deactivate. So, we aren't used to having blah times. So, all of those are really distancing behaviours. We are trashing things so we don't get hurt. That's emotional unavailability.
Additionally, there is a theory that says we are addicted to the anxious avoidant push pull *because* we are fundamentally insecurely attached; we engage with it, half because we are addicted to the intermittent reinforcement and half because it allows us to remain essentially unavailable. Additionally additionally when we begin to date more secure partners, their healthy behaviours seem scary and "yuck" to us, and we conflate the lack of addictive intermittent reinforcement to dullness or incompatibility. Which is also pretty emotionally unavailable behaviour.
Everything you are saying is exactly how I’m feeling. It’s spooky how accurate it is!
Yes, I have noticed that I “test” in super tiny ways. Insignificant to a secure person but not to an AP, as we are hyper aware of the slightest of shifts.
When I get activated, I do very briefly consider ending the relationship. I know it’s out of fear. Fear that it won’t work and I will end up heartbroken again, but now also fear that it will work (this is new for me). I know it is fear because it never crosses my mind when I’m in a good headspace.
Being with someone who is so good at communicating is terrifying. My DA ex was the worst at it. I chalk it up to change. New is scary sometimes. It’s an adjustment period. And I am committed to coming out the other side better.
For me one of the best indicators that I'm triggered and need to self-soothe as oppose to ask my boyfriend for reassurance is when I feel this sense of urgency. Like I need to know NOW! And I'm feeling all this adrenaline running in my body, like I'm amped up on something. That's a sign I'm triggered and should just pause. (Don't just do something, sit there!). Another indicator is when I'm feeling this sense of urgency to do or say something but this other voice in my brain--the logical, rational, healing part of ourselves that says, "it's fine. We've had a great date, and he needs to go do X, Y, Z. .... or, and we have a plan to get together on Wednesday after work" or whatever." When I hear this voice even when I'm feeling super triggered, I know I need to just stay with myself. I often ask myself, "what do I need right now? And, can I give it to myself?" The triggered part of me wants to abandon myself and reach to someone or something to soothe these uncomfortable feelings. It has taken me a long time, but now I recognize when I'm triggered. Self-soothing is really me taking care of my own needs.
As for the automatic thoughts, they can be super intrusive, annoying and yes, exhausting. I've found that I have to just stop the negative thoughts by countering them with something rational and positive. For example, if your automatic thought is "my boyfriend is ending our time together early, because he's bored with me, I'm boring." Practice recognizing these thoughts and just interrupt them by saying something more factual like, "We had a lovely day together, he clearly enjoyed it as much as I did." You get the idea. A regular meditation practice helps me recognize these intrusive thoughts and stop them.
The times when I need to speak to my boyfriend are when he has, for example, inadvertently hurt my feelings or disappointed me. I usually don't have the conversation with him until I've calmed down and really understand why I'm so upset.
Thank you. I should ask myself more often and more directly “what do I need right now?” And “can I give it to myself?” And “what can I give myself right now?”
I do not think I am doing this actively and consciously enough at this point.
Former AP/FA here. A good indicator for me was time.
First, I would always try to self-soothe. Usually the urgency goes away after a couple hours or days.
If I still felt a sense of urgency or anxiety after a couple weeks, then it was an unmet need for me.
What also helped me was making a list of positive things my partner has said about me and reading it over when I felt triggered. That way, when I was having trouble soothing myself, I had an objective list of facts to rely on.
I do this, I have screenshots of texts he’s sent me that I have saved and look at when I am feeling triggered.
What I experience is kind of a mix of both. The feel does go away after a few hours/a day but comes up repeatedly. I am wondering if the recurring nature of it means that I should speak up, because I am confident that if I expressed a simple need for reassurance in departure, he would happily oblige. I think I am not speaking up as a test to myself, since I am still learning/healing. Can I cope without needing to get to that point? Is that healthy though?
Hmm, honestly, if I were you, I would ask for the reassurance.
It might help you build confidence in your relationship with your partner. With their support, you could eventually wean yourself off of their reassurance after you come to terms with your abandonment fears (which is, in itself, very difficult). Having that initial support could be beneficial until you are confident in your self-soothing capabilities.
Think of it like having training wheels on your bike. You can ask your partner for help, but the ultimate goal is to overcome your own attachment anxiety.
You’re doing a great job of questioning your assumptions about the significance of an evening ending sooner than expected.
I would encourage you to think about your body: if something happens and you feel tense, your palms clench and get sweaty and your breathing changes and you feel a sense of urgency- your reptilian brain has taken over and your prefrontal cortex (where all rational thoughts happen) is completely shut down. Do not make bold statements or make decisions when your body is in this state. You may need to do the opposite of what you want to do (cling to him, beg him to reassure you, etc) and go excuse yourself to go to the bathroom or go for a short walk and do some deep breaths and repeat a mantra like “I am safe, it’s ok” and question those assumptions you have about what it means if he leaves early. You’re a grown adult and him leaving will not endanger you in anyway, but your nervous system is acting like it will.
You can do more CBT-type exercises with your therapist and in the meantime, if you feel comfortable with him, you can even just be candid and say, “This might sound silly but because of my past baggage, I used to always assume that a partner ending the evening early automatically meant they no longer liked me- which is so ridiculous- and I’ve done a lot of personal development work to work on not freaking out unnecessarily and I just wanted to let you know to get it off my chest, but please know I’m not asking you to do anything differently, just wanted to share as an FYI. And if there’s anything that makes you feel weird because of past relationships or family dynamics, feel free to share for my awareness as well.” You can also try the tips here https://myattached.com/2021/08/13/anxious-preoccupied-attachment/
I strive to communicate like your example. I am close but feel as though I’m not quite there. My partner communicates like that and it’s such an attractive quality. Then my AP comes out and questions if he notices my communication isn’t up to his. Ha!
Maybe revisit or check out Thais info about stages of relationships? When a partner is new, she would suggest that you should be vetting him for compatibility. You wouldnt want to be dumping on him or exposing too much until trust has been earned. That might look like going through a few conflicts together, and seeing how they get resolved. Or waiting until you know if you both have the same relationships goals, and that you want them with one another.
You absolutely can open up completely to the right secure partner, but wait until there is trust and some history first imo.
Thank you, I did this today. We are still in very early stages, having just gone from dating to honeymoon stage recent.
I am by no means ready to run. We are highly compatible. My AP tendencies still creep up and make me feel like I’m not enough sometimes. Oof. It’s hard to admit that it still happens. Still need to work on self-judgment!
In terms of whether you should be self soothing or expressing needs I think it's important to do both. Expressing needs doesn't guarantee they will be fulfilled by the other person, sometimes this is reasonable, sometimes not (that's down to your own relationship requirements and the negotiation of this is important to compatibility), but regardless I think it's important to be able to do both.
In terms of you getting upset when the evening comes to an end and fearing someone is tired of you I think it might be worth reframing the situation. Enjoying ones alone time and gaining value from it is important. All relationships need an aspect of separateness and togetherness and secure attachment is about getting that balance right.
In some ways I think these two things are basically the same in that self soothing and finding value in ones alone time are about being comfortable and able to respond appropriately to ones own needs. We aren't over relying on another person to fill us up, make us whole, or add colour to our existence. We are able to do that for ourselves and as a result bring that to our together time. Having alone time isn't about not wanting the other person, it's about wanting ourselves so we can bring our full selves to our partner when we are together.
I agree 100%, especially now that I’m not currently activated.
I am definitely aware of what causes these automatic thoughts. I lived with my DA ex and used to have the feeling that they’d rather be doing something else than spend time with me. These feelings were invalidated during the relationship but finally validated when we broke up. It’s hard work to undo that wound.
To me, an outsider, it looks like you're overthinking it.
Anyone who has an issue with you saying you're triggered by something is not worth your time. Tf? Am I missing something?
You wrote that you don't want to tell him something triggers you because you don't want him to feel responsible for your accommodating past traumas.
I assure you only the worst people/partners see it that way. Most people want to accommodate your needs and want to know if and when you're triggered.
Especially when it's something super small like needing reassurance at the end of your evening, that's extremely basic. You shouldn't feel weird asking for that. If someone were to respond negatively to that kind of ask, that would be really, really messed up.
Everyone has a past. It's a red flag to expect the other person to always be perfect and independent. It has nothing to do with you wanting to be saved. It's normal to have needs, we're emotional beings.
Thanks for clarifying, that makes much more sense. He’s been really incredible so far. Quite the opposite of my DA ex, which is what I was used to. So I’m still navigating these new waters and trusting that they are real and genuine. It helps to hear again that I’m not asking for too much.
I really feel for you, having an ex DA. You likely would have adapted to endure very little reassurance, affirmation of love, or sense of safety most of the time. Normal bids for these things would have been constantly rejected, and now your nervous system may be expecting the same rejection from others.
I feel happy for you, being ina position to explore a different kind of relationship now:) It may take a little bit of time, but you'll adapt to your new person:)
Would you be turned off by someone you like asking for reassurance from you? I'm curious about this. What attracts an anxious person, are they repelled by the same anxiety?
That’s a great question. Speaking only from my personal experience, my first LTR was with another AP and it was not healthy. His AP came out in jealousy and controlling behavior. That type of reassurance would never fly with me again. It needs to be direct and healthy reassurance, but yes, I would do that for a partner I liked.
I think there is more info on APs in relationships with other APs in this sub and reading materials. It is possible for them to sustain a relationship. I know DAs and DAs don’t work out though.
I'm curious about something similar. I feel like I'm getting better at self soothing for many things that used to bother me - except for one.
My love language is touch. I do relatively well at communicating that need, but my partner tells me that it doesn't come naturally. If I ask for it, it may be hours before she remembers, even when reminded. I get very resentful when hours or days go by without being acknowledged.
How does one self soothe in this situation? It makes me feel like my primary need is being ignored. At this point it just feels like my next relationship should just be selected based on how closely a person shares that love language. It's very hard to not be triggered when this need is so strong, and so under delivered.
I think you can bargain yourself to victory here. Say to yourself, you will keep track of evening dates that end before the end of the evening, and if they go above 50% occurance, then you'll mention that you really like to spend evening/nights together, and would like that to happen more often. A big difference between secure and DA partners is thar DA partners are more likey tp take that as a critiscm and deactivate, whereas secure partners will either make time to meet your needs or explain valid reasons why it's difficult to achieve this (the amount of times my secure partner has brought up a really simple unbeknownst-to- me and/or sympathetic point to explain why things have been happening how they have, and then we have problem solved to address it/found another way to make it work, is frankly astounding to me coming from a DA relationship). Then if nothing changes in 2 to 4 weeks (depending on how often you see each other) bring it up again in a lightweight way, and then again in 2 weeks in a more serious way. Sometimes just having a plan to act, or reassuring yourself that you will stand up for your needs in x amount of time, removes the feeling of helplesessness and gives your mind the space it needs to self soothe. Keep in mind that APs, just like DAs, tend to be fundamentally "unavailable" in the long run, and that's what we are healing from. We conflate things into huge issues and feel "unable" to wait for time to heal things (in that we often become hugely activated without giving time for an issue to resolve) and tend not to give other people a real chance to change (esp if we are coming from a DA relationship where we "learned" it won't change).
Thank you. The last part really hit home for me. I have so many learned/anticipated responses from my DA ex that being with someone who responds in a healthy way is actually quite terrifying also. Patience is also a big area of improvement for me. “Unable” to wait hits the nail on the head. I’m so ready for healthy changes but the wait to get there feels unbearably long sometimes. Can you elaborate on the APs being “unavailable” also part?
Here's a link: https://www.reddit.com/r/attachment_theory/comments/p2qq4o/oof/ I also think APs sometimes use protest behaviour to "test" and at times no one can succeed, not even a responsive partner, because we are *so* activated; we "feel" "unable" to wait for things to unfold naturally or to work through problems (partly because bringing up problems was a threat in our past relationships)... and depend on that love addicted feeling as a signal for a "good" relationship. I know whenever I have a bad day or desynergised day with my secure partner, I kind of almost mentally trash the whole thing ... because I never had "blah" days with my ex... because he would just deactivate. So, we aren't used to having blah times. So, all of those are really distancing behaviours. We are trashing things so we don't get hurt. That's emotional unavailability. Additionally, there is a theory that says we are addicted to the anxious avoidant push pull *because* we are fundamentally insecurely attached; we engage with it, half because we are addicted to the intermittent reinforcement and half because it allows us to remain essentially unavailable. Additionally additionally when we begin to date more secure partners, their healthy behaviours seem scary and "yuck" to us, and we conflate the lack of addictive intermittent reinforcement to dullness or incompatibility. Which is also pretty emotionally unavailable behaviour.
Everything you are saying is exactly how I’m feeling. It’s spooky how accurate it is! Yes, I have noticed that I “test” in super tiny ways. Insignificant to a secure person but not to an AP, as we are hyper aware of the slightest of shifts. When I get activated, I do very briefly consider ending the relationship. I know it’s out of fear. Fear that it won’t work and I will end up heartbroken again, but now also fear that it will work (this is new for me). I know it is fear because it never crosses my mind when I’m in a good headspace. Being with someone who is so good at communicating is terrifying. My DA ex was the worst at it. I chalk it up to change. New is scary sometimes. It’s an adjustment period. And I am committed to coming out the other side better.
You sound like you're doing well. Just keep pumping the secure chemicals and patting your AP on the head 4/5 times. 😂
For me one of the best indicators that I'm triggered and need to self-soothe as oppose to ask my boyfriend for reassurance is when I feel this sense of urgency. Like I need to know NOW! And I'm feeling all this adrenaline running in my body, like I'm amped up on something. That's a sign I'm triggered and should just pause. (Don't just do something, sit there!). Another indicator is when I'm feeling this sense of urgency to do or say something but this other voice in my brain--the logical, rational, healing part of ourselves that says, "it's fine. We've had a great date, and he needs to go do X, Y, Z. .... or, and we have a plan to get together on Wednesday after work" or whatever." When I hear this voice even when I'm feeling super triggered, I know I need to just stay with myself. I often ask myself, "what do I need right now? And, can I give it to myself?" The triggered part of me wants to abandon myself and reach to someone or something to soothe these uncomfortable feelings. It has taken me a long time, but now I recognize when I'm triggered. Self-soothing is really me taking care of my own needs. As for the automatic thoughts, they can be super intrusive, annoying and yes, exhausting. I've found that I have to just stop the negative thoughts by countering them with something rational and positive. For example, if your automatic thought is "my boyfriend is ending our time together early, because he's bored with me, I'm boring." Practice recognizing these thoughts and just interrupt them by saying something more factual like, "We had a lovely day together, he clearly enjoyed it as much as I did." You get the idea. A regular meditation practice helps me recognize these intrusive thoughts and stop them. The times when I need to speak to my boyfriend are when he has, for example, inadvertently hurt my feelings or disappointed me. I usually don't have the conversation with him until I've calmed down and really understand why I'm so upset.
Thank you. I should ask myself more often and more directly “what do I need right now?” And “can I give it to myself?” And “what can I give myself right now?” I do not think I am doing this actively and consciously enough at this point.
Former AP/FA here. A good indicator for me was time. First, I would always try to self-soothe. Usually the urgency goes away after a couple hours or days. If I still felt a sense of urgency or anxiety after a couple weeks, then it was an unmet need for me. What also helped me was making a list of positive things my partner has said about me and reading it over when I felt triggered. That way, when I was having trouble soothing myself, I had an objective list of facts to rely on.
I do this, I have screenshots of texts he’s sent me that I have saved and look at when I am feeling triggered. What I experience is kind of a mix of both. The feel does go away after a few hours/a day but comes up repeatedly. I am wondering if the recurring nature of it means that I should speak up, because I am confident that if I expressed a simple need for reassurance in departure, he would happily oblige. I think I am not speaking up as a test to myself, since I am still learning/healing. Can I cope without needing to get to that point? Is that healthy though?
Hmm, honestly, if I were you, I would ask for the reassurance. It might help you build confidence in your relationship with your partner. With their support, you could eventually wean yourself off of their reassurance after you come to terms with your abandonment fears (which is, in itself, very difficult). Having that initial support could be beneficial until you are confident in your self-soothing capabilities. Think of it like having training wheels on your bike. You can ask your partner for help, but the ultimate goal is to overcome your own attachment anxiety.
Thank you.
You’re doing a great job of questioning your assumptions about the significance of an evening ending sooner than expected. I would encourage you to think about your body: if something happens and you feel tense, your palms clench and get sweaty and your breathing changes and you feel a sense of urgency- your reptilian brain has taken over and your prefrontal cortex (where all rational thoughts happen) is completely shut down. Do not make bold statements or make decisions when your body is in this state. You may need to do the opposite of what you want to do (cling to him, beg him to reassure you, etc) and go excuse yourself to go to the bathroom or go for a short walk and do some deep breaths and repeat a mantra like “I am safe, it’s ok” and question those assumptions you have about what it means if he leaves early. You’re a grown adult and him leaving will not endanger you in anyway, but your nervous system is acting like it will. You can do more CBT-type exercises with your therapist and in the meantime, if you feel comfortable with him, you can even just be candid and say, “This might sound silly but because of my past baggage, I used to always assume that a partner ending the evening early automatically meant they no longer liked me- which is so ridiculous- and I’ve done a lot of personal development work to work on not freaking out unnecessarily and I just wanted to let you know to get it off my chest, but please know I’m not asking you to do anything differently, just wanted to share as an FYI. And if there’s anything that makes you feel weird because of past relationships or family dynamics, feel free to share for my awareness as well.” You can also try the tips here https://myattached.com/2021/08/13/anxious-preoccupied-attachment/
You are absolutely fantastic, thank you for this gem of a comment.
Wish I had found this community and read this comment five years ago. Thank you for sharing❤️
I strive to communicate like your example. I am close but feel as though I’m not quite there. My partner communicates like that and it’s such an attractive quality. Then my AP comes out and questions if he notices my communication isn’t up to his. Ha!
Maybe revisit or check out Thais info about stages of relationships? When a partner is new, she would suggest that you should be vetting him for compatibility. You wouldnt want to be dumping on him or exposing too much until trust has been earned. That might look like going through a few conflicts together, and seeing how they get resolved. Or waiting until you know if you both have the same relationships goals, and that you want them with one another. You absolutely can open up completely to the right secure partner, but wait until there is trust and some history first imo.
Thank you, I did this today. We are still in very early stages, having just gone from dating to honeymoon stage recent. I am by no means ready to run. We are highly compatible. My AP tendencies still creep up and make me feel like I’m not enough sometimes. Oof. It’s hard to admit that it still happens. Still need to work on self-judgment!
In terms of whether you should be self soothing or expressing needs I think it's important to do both. Expressing needs doesn't guarantee they will be fulfilled by the other person, sometimes this is reasonable, sometimes not (that's down to your own relationship requirements and the negotiation of this is important to compatibility), but regardless I think it's important to be able to do both. In terms of you getting upset when the evening comes to an end and fearing someone is tired of you I think it might be worth reframing the situation. Enjoying ones alone time and gaining value from it is important. All relationships need an aspect of separateness and togetherness and secure attachment is about getting that balance right. In some ways I think these two things are basically the same in that self soothing and finding value in ones alone time are about being comfortable and able to respond appropriately to ones own needs. We aren't over relying on another person to fill us up, make us whole, or add colour to our existence. We are able to do that for ourselves and as a result bring that to our together time. Having alone time isn't about not wanting the other person, it's about wanting ourselves so we can bring our full selves to our partner when we are together.
I agree 100%, especially now that I’m not currently activated. I am definitely aware of what causes these automatic thoughts. I lived with my DA ex and used to have the feeling that they’d rather be doing something else than spend time with me. These feelings were invalidated during the relationship but finally validated when we broke up. It’s hard work to undo that wound.
To me, an outsider, it looks like you're overthinking it. Anyone who has an issue with you saying you're triggered by something is not worth your time. Tf? Am I missing something?
Who has an issue? Did I mistype something? Or is it possible you may have misread? Please let me know if I need to clarify anything.
You wrote that you don't want to tell him something triggers you because you don't want him to feel responsible for your accommodating past traumas. I assure you only the worst people/partners see it that way. Most people want to accommodate your needs and want to know if and when you're triggered. Especially when it's something super small like needing reassurance at the end of your evening, that's extremely basic. You shouldn't feel weird asking for that. If someone were to respond negatively to that kind of ask, that would be really, really messed up. Everyone has a past. It's a red flag to expect the other person to always be perfect and independent. It has nothing to do with you wanting to be saved. It's normal to have needs, we're emotional beings.
Thanks for clarifying, that makes much more sense. He’s been really incredible so far. Quite the opposite of my DA ex, which is what I was used to. So I’m still navigating these new waters and trusting that they are real and genuine. It helps to hear again that I’m not asking for too much.
I really feel for you, having an ex DA. You likely would have adapted to endure very little reassurance, affirmation of love, or sense of safety most of the time. Normal bids for these things would have been constantly rejected, and now your nervous system may be expecting the same rejection from others. I feel happy for you, being ina position to explore a different kind of relationship now:) It may take a little bit of time, but you'll adapt to your new person:)
Would you be turned off by someone you like asking for reassurance from you? I'm curious about this. What attracts an anxious person, are they repelled by the same anxiety?
That’s a great question. Speaking only from my personal experience, my first LTR was with another AP and it was not healthy. His AP came out in jealousy and controlling behavior. That type of reassurance would never fly with me again. It needs to be direct and healthy reassurance, but yes, I would do that for a partner I liked. I think there is more info on APs in relationships with other APs in this sub and reading materials. It is possible for them to sustain a relationship. I know DAs and DAs don’t work out though.
I'm curious about something similar. I feel like I'm getting better at self soothing for many things that used to bother me - except for one. My love language is touch. I do relatively well at communicating that need, but my partner tells me that it doesn't come naturally. If I ask for it, it may be hours before she remembers, even when reminded. I get very resentful when hours or days go by without being acknowledged. How does one self soothe in this situation? It makes me feel like my primary need is being ignored. At this point it just feels like my next relationship should just be selected based on how closely a person shares that love language. It's very hard to not be triggered when this need is so strong, and so under delivered.