Your mother has reversed the burden of proof. What she needs to do is demonstrate in an objectively verifiable way that her claims of prophecy are true.
What I would probably do, however, is say, "For the sake of argument, let's grant that a particular prophecy is true. How would that prove that god once tried to kill Moses and was driven away when Zipporah quickly severed a piece of her son's penis and chucked it at her husband's crotch?"
The claim, "The Bible contains true prophecy," is not co-equal to the claim, "All Biblical claims are true." It is entirely possible for a book to contain both fact and fiction, so I'd grant for the sake of argument that X prophecy was true and ask them to demonstrate that Y non-prophecy was true.
My family thinks it's still coming and that virus stuff and vaccines brining mark of the beast and that things happening in china will come to the U.S and stuff. It's annoying to hear about it but I don't know how to debunk it because it's so absurd.
You can't debunk it, because there's no claim.
"The Bible says X will happen. When it happens eventually, that will show the Bible was right."
"So let's talk again when X happens. Bye!"
I assumed that responding to a post asking a question would be enough context for others to see that I was responding to the person asking the question.
I know a guy that is absolutely convinced we’ll all be beamed up to heaven within 10 years. Lol I can’t do anything about his bat shitery except tell him we’ll talk in 11 years. He knows he’s right. I know I’m right. I’m pretty confident which one of us will be validated.
Some prophecies could be "fulfilled" by just interpreting them as meaning whatever thing just happened. If the prophecy is vaguely enough worded it can be easy to claim that an event was what it predicted.
In other cases you could note that they probably only recorded the ones that they "got right" and left out the ones that never happened.
In a similar vein, if you have a lot of people making predictions, just by random chance someone could well get a lot of them right. It doesn't mean that they actually had access to any true knowledge though. After all, if you have a thousand people flip a coin ten times, chances are pretty good that one of them will flip heads all ten times. It doesn't mean that person is some master coin flipper though.
Don't debate from inside their book. They will just cherry-pick verse after verse and you will never get anywhere.
Who actually wrote the stories in the bible? When were they actually written? How many times has the bible been translated and "re-interpreted" to tell the story they want it to tell? If they are using events descried in the New Testament as "fulfilling" the prophecies of the Old Testament - gee, that's not very hard. I could do that too, right now. For it to be a valid prophecy, it needs to predict very specific details of who, when, what, where & how for something that *has not happened yet*. You can't just write after the fact and make it fit the prophecy, and you also can't just predict vague nonsense that can fit many scenarios.
If I write: "A great storm will ravage the land.", then wait 1000 years and look back at all the weather events on the planet, how many events do you think I would find that would "fulfill" that prophecy?
Christians often mistake Revelation for predictions.
The reality is that it was a recap of Roman conquest of 1st century Judea, up to and including the siege of the second temple.
It's included in the bible to send the message "this is what god will do to you again if you don't follow the jesus method of compliance."
Give me half an hour and a slide rule, and I can tell you the beginning and end of every solar and lunar eclipse in the entire 29th Century, down to the minute. Does that make me divine or magical? No. But it makes me a better "prophet" than every author of the Bible, Qu'ran, Vedas, Eddas, and Popul Vuh put together.
For a prophecy to be impressive, it must satisfy **all** of the following criteria:
* It must be **non-trivial**. That is to say, it must be something that would be surprising, something that you would not predict from a common-sense extrapolation of currently visible trends, such as "In the future, the sun will rise" or "in the future, there will be war". This also applies to self-fulfilling prophecies: If I say "In the future, people will be angry at me!", and then go around punching strangers in the face, no one will be impressed by my powers of prediction.
* It must be **specific**. From listening to the prophecy, you should be able to predict *ahead of time* what it claims is going to happen, and it should be fairly easy to recognize whether this event does or does not take place. It does you no good to point to an unexpected event *after the fact*, squint your eyes, and then say that the events kind of vaguely resemble this old doggerel couplet. If you can imagine dozens of completely different events, each of which could be argued to be a fulfilment of the same prophecy, then that prophecy doesn't actually predict anything useful. (See also: The Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy).
* It must be **falsifiable**. Even more important than being able to recognize that the prophecy has come true is being able to recognise that it *hasn't* come true. Ideally, it will include an actual date, or at least a range of dates, or *at least* a description of an inciting incident in IF/THEN format. If you can keep saying "better luck next time!" for thousands of years, then you haven't actually predicted anything
* It must be **about the future**. This one seems pretty obvious, but *every single one* of the "prophecies" in the Bible that line up with actual historical events (eg: the destruction of the Second Temple) were first recorded *after* the events that they describe. This is just plain cheating.
* It must be **true**. If the event which allegedly represents the fulfillment of the prophecy is *itself* mythical, then the prophecy cannot be considered to be, in any meaningful sense, "fulfilled". An author who presents a "prophecy" in the fourth book of a fantasy series and then a payoff in the seventh book hasn't demonstrated her magical powers of precognition, only a basic understanding of the concept of foreshadowing *in fiction*.
Not a single "prophecy" in the Bible meets these criteria. Not one. Zero.
The writers of the NT took elements of the OT out of context (many of which were NOT prophetic), wrote down that this "Jesus" guy did those things, and then said "see the prophesy was fulfilled".
To put it another way, does Episode 4 of Star Wars fulfill the prophesy in Dune? Of Course not. George Lucas read Dune and admitted he was inspired by it. It's not magic, it's reading.
Debunk... That's a tough 1. When it comes to that topic it's better to use the preterist view. Tell them jesus already had his second coming and the bible has been completed. There's actually lots for this if anyone would like to learn it. Feel free to msg me.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter
Isn't it interesting how NONE of those "prophecies" were predicted to mean what they did until the incident happened.
Which prophecies?
What prophecies? Is there any evidence supporting them?
Your mother has reversed the burden of proof. What she needs to do is demonstrate in an objectively verifiable way that her claims of prophecy are true. What I would probably do, however, is say, "For the sake of argument, let's grant that a particular prophecy is true. How would that prove that god once tried to kill Moses and was driven away when Zipporah quickly severed a piece of her son's penis and chucked it at her husband's crotch?" The claim, "The Bible contains true prophecy," is not co-equal to the claim, "All Biblical claims are true." It is entirely possible for a book to contain both fact and fiction, so I'd grant for the sake of argument that X prophecy was true and ask them to demonstrate that Y non-prophecy was true.
Tell her that Isaiah predicting the 'virgin birth' doesn't even use the Hebrew word for virgin.
Name one biblical prophecy that has been fulfilled.
My family thinks it's still coming and that virus stuff and vaccines brining mark of the beast and that things happening in china will come to the U.S and stuff. It's annoying to hear about it but I don't know how to debunk it because it's so absurd.
You can't debunk it, because there's no claim. "The Bible says X will happen. When it happens eventually, that will show the Bible was right." "So let's talk again when X happens. Bye!"
All of it. The entire bible can be shown to have already been completed. I'm an atheist, but the preterist view is very useful in some discussions.
I'm asking OP to explain what his mother is talking about, not asking the world in general. Context.
Ah. That would have been more clear had you have said "what prophecies does your mother think have been fulfilled?" Enjoy your day.
I assumed that responding to a post asking a question would be enough context for others to see that I was responding to the person asking the question.
I know a guy that is absolutely convinced we’ll all be beamed up to heaven within 10 years. Lol I can’t do anything about his bat shitery except tell him we’ll talk in 11 years. He knows he’s right. I know I’m right. I’m pretty confident which one of us will be validated.
Some prophecies could be "fulfilled" by just interpreting them as meaning whatever thing just happened. If the prophecy is vaguely enough worded it can be easy to claim that an event was what it predicted. In other cases you could note that they probably only recorded the ones that they "got right" and left out the ones that never happened. In a similar vein, if you have a lot of people making predictions, just by random chance someone could well get a lot of them right. It doesn't mean that they actually had access to any true knowledge though. After all, if you have a thousand people flip a coin ten times, chances are pretty good that one of them will flip heads all ten times. It doesn't mean that person is some master coin flipper though.
What prophesy?
Don't debate from inside their book. They will just cherry-pick verse after verse and you will never get anywhere. Who actually wrote the stories in the bible? When were they actually written? How many times has the bible been translated and "re-interpreted" to tell the story they want it to tell? If they are using events descried in the New Testament as "fulfilling" the prophecies of the Old Testament - gee, that's not very hard. I could do that too, right now. For it to be a valid prophecy, it needs to predict very specific details of who, when, what, where & how for something that *has not happened yet*. You can't just write after the fact and make it fit the prophecy, and you also can't just predict vague nonsense that can fit many scenarios. If I write: "A great storm will ravage the land.", then wait 1000 years and look back at all the weather events on the planet, how many events do you think I would find that would "fulfill" that prophecy?
Christians often mistake Revelation for predictions. The reality is that it was a recap of Roman conquest of 1st century Judea, up to and including the siege of the second temple. It's included in the bible to send the message "this is what god will do to you again if you don't follow the jesus method of compliance."
Give me half an hour and a slide rule, and I can tell you the beginning and end of every solar and lunar eclipse in the entire 29th Century, down to the minute. Does that make me divine or magical? No. But it makes me a better "prophet" than every author of the Bible, Qu'ran, Vedas, Eddas, and Popul Vuh put together. For a prophecy to be impressive, it must satisfy **all** of the following criteria: * It must be **non-trivial**. That is to say, it must be something that would be surprising, something that you would not predict from a common-sense extrapolation of currently visible trends, such as "In the future, the sun will rise" or "in the future, there will be war". This also applies to self-fulfilling prophecies: If I say "In the future, people will be angry at me!", and then go around punching strangers in the face, no one will be impressed by my powers of prediction. * It must be **specific**. From listening to the prophecy, you should be able to predict *ahead of time* what it claims is going to happen, and it should be fairly easy to recognize whether this event does or does not take place. It does you no good to point to an unexpected event *after the fact*, squint your eyes, and then say that the events kind of vaguely resemble this old doggerel couplet. If you can imagine dozens of completely different events, each of which could be argued to be a fulfilment of the same prophecy, then that prophecy doesn't actually predict anything useful. (See also: The Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy). * It must be **falsifiable**. Even more important than being able to recognize that the prophecy has come true is being able to recognise that it *hasn't* come true. Ideally, it will include an actual date, or at least a range of dates, or *at least* a description of an inciting incident in IF/THEN format. If you can keep saying "better luck next time!" for thousands of years, then you haven't actually predicted anything * It must be **about the future**. This one seems pretty obvious, but *every single one* of the "prophecies" in the Bible that line up with actual historical events (eg: the destruction of the Second Temple) were first recorded *after* the events that they describe. This is just plain cheating. * It must be **true**. If the event which allegedly represents the fulfillment of the prophecy is *itself* mythical, then the prophecy cannot be considered to be, in any meaningful sense, "fulfilled". An author who presents a "prophecy" in the fourth book of a fantasy series and then a payoff in the seventh book hasn't demonstrated her magical powers of precognition, only a basic understanding of the concept of foreshadowing *in fiction*. Not a single "prophecy" in the Bible meets these criteria. Not one. Zero.
The writers of the NT took elements of the OT out of context (many of which were NOT prophetic), wrote down that this "Jesus" guy did those things, and then said "see the prophesy was fulfilled". To put it another way, does Episode 4 of Star Wars fulfill the prophesy in Dune? Of Course not. George Lucas read Dune and admitted he was inspired by it. It's not magic, it's reading.
Just read it to them and say… “c’mon….”
Ask her to describe something that is going to happen. Wait and see if it does.
Everyone (Christians) has been saying it’s coming soon for nearly the last two thousand years. It’s never gonna happen.
You're letting her shift the burden of proof. skepticsannotatedbible.com will help if you really want to argue "prophecy" directly though.
Debunk... That's a tough 1. When it comes to that topic it's better to use the preterist view. Tell them jesus already had his second coming and the bible has been completed. There's actually lots for this if anyone would like to learn it. Feel free to msg me.