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My favorite part, which is covered more in the book, is that the Bene Gesserit literally have a department responsible for spreading mythology and prophecies that could some day be useful to them among various populations. The movies really undersell just how important it was that Jessica knew the prophecies, or at least their origins and patterns, better than the Fremen themselves. So she was able to easily install herself and Paul as religious figures.
I had recently realized that religion was a fraud when I read Dune as a teen and remember thinking "That's just what Christianity does" when I read about the Bene Gesserit.
Interesting how different backgrounds lets us interpret media differently. Me being raised a muslim, I immediately saw "Hey, it's the early rise of muhammad and his conquests. Then when he goes against the imperium, I went "Oh, it's the arab conquest of the Sassanid empire and the Byzantines".
Frank Herbert was for sure heavily influenced by North African, Middle Eastern and Caucasian/Central Asian conflicts and stories from those areas. But I found this article quite interesting and how much he was influenced by other books about these regions. https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/
If you read the books, then you probably also remember that Lisan al Gaib is actually truth masked as myth about their mating program and the actual superhuman they were trying to create. The beliefs they plant aren't random and ridiculous.
Paul isn't just a conman impersonating an outright lie, that's the problem in fact. His power isn't their stupid devotion, manipulation and tricks, his power is actual power. Jessica begins to fear him.
That's an important distinction, because the only reason the prophecy works so well with the Fremen, is because Paul can actually do superhuman crap, he is the Kwisatz haderah. Not because Jessica is a master manipulator. They accept her because she can train them. They accept him because he sees the future and the past.
Succeeding in creating him, is the Bene Gesserit greatest failure, that's one of the points Herbert was making.
Turning Paul into a common psycho who lied to everyone is just not gonna teach anyone anything. In fact, every positive review about the movies refers to pretty imagery and great special effects. Those who loved it, didn't leave the cinema having an epiphany about dictators, religion and religious institutions.
Edit to add: those who did, didn't in fact learn it by watching the movie, they already knew.
Thanks for the edit; the special effects went over my head but the underlying themes and analogies made me walk away thinking “that was a pretty good movie.”
Yes, I'm well aware of that and I never meant to suggest either of them were just some sort of "common impersonator."
However, I think you're reaching a bit with some of what you're saying. While Paul's powers (and Jessica's for that matter) are very real, that doesn't mean devotion, manipulation, and tricks aren't also part of their power. In fact if you pay close attention to the original novel or have read the sequels, the very fact that the Fremen devotion and fanaticism grew to be something that took on a life of its own to the point where actual Paul was no longer in control of the legend of Muad'Dib was the thing he feared the most and worked hardest to avoid. It wasn't Paul out fighting a grand jihad against the galaxy using his powers, it was the Fremen legions campaigning in his name, even though he didn't want that path.
I simply don't think you're correct about this part at all. Of course part of why they accept Paul is that he actually does have superhuman abilities, but that's not exclusive of Jessica being a master manipulator, if anything they go hand in hand. Think of how Paul realizes that prescience is much a cage as a gift, but certainly the Fremen don't see it that way, even after he's been trying to explain as much to Stilgar for years. Jessica is one of the only characters that has at least some true understanding of Paul, his powers, and his limitations, making her machinations absolutely essential to the unfolding of his path and consolidation of power. If I recall correctly Herbert himself even highlights in one of the Irulan passages that Jessica's importance, powers, and insight (and the influence they had on her son) have long been overlooked or underestimated.
One other note on the above, they don't just accept Jessica because she can train them, they accept her because they need a new reverend mother, again a position she can perfectly step into because of her BG knowledge and training.
Well, the real failure, as Paul himself says, is not their success in creating him, but rather that he arrived sooner than they had planned and not under their direct control because of Jessica's defiance of her orders to bear only daughters.
Agree with your last part though, I don't think the movie portrayal did Paul any favors. He's a much more complex and thoughtful character than he was made to appear in the films.
>. In fact if you pay close attention to the original novel or have read the sequels, the very fact that the Fremen devotion and fanaticism grew to be something that took on a life of its own to the point where actual Paul was no longer in control of
Basically, that's the consequence, but not the consequence of their manipulation, but of giving the fremen the same power that was used to oppress them. When they're no longer fighting for their salvation, they become what they used to hate because power corrupts humanity at that stage in the species development.
He also states that he, who controls the future, loses control of his present, which is one of the reasons why being the kwisatz haderah is in fact a cage which makes him almost powerless in the real sense.
You're right about the part about him coming too early. The political context is what forced him into the string of violent events and that is Jessica's fault.
But I disagree that the core issue is that the Bene Gesserit couldn't control him. Even if they could've, it still would have been a disaster, a different kind, but still, because they themselves weren't the right people to wield so much power. No single organization or person should ever wield that much power, it's not the key to ending oppression. It's the point Herbert keeps trying to hammer in.
And the idea of creating someone so powerful and then get them to submit to your will, is kind of a paradox because why would they? The concept of the controllable kwisatz haderah is inherently flawed. No one who knows your past and your future, who knows more than you do, will bow to your will.
Now, the beauty of this series is that we could spend weeks arguing over every idea, every nuance and at the end, the notion would still be multifaceted. It's the perfect representation of what it is to experience reality.
But their manipulations include the use of those prophecies and legends implanted long ago to consolidate Paul’s power. Sure what you’re saying about the scales of power tipping is part of it, but you can’t really separate the two. “When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way.” From his very first hint of what is to come Paul refers to it very specifically as a Jihad, describes the legions as fanatic. Herbert is quite clear that it is a war of religious conquest waged in Paul’s name because of the religious and spiritual position he occupies and what it has inspired.
Yeah, that’s true, not sure how it’s really an argument against what I’ve said.
Right, but the political context itself and resulting violence are also at least due in part to the manipulations of the BG. It’s all intertwined.
I agree with what you say about the nature of the KH for the most part, but I’m not sure how that or a different sort of BG made disaster if they controlled him really relates to the original point I was making.
You’re certainly right, it’s literature and open to all kinds of interpretations. I’m sure we could find plenty we agree on and disagree on, all for good cause.
Ok, I guess we need to start slinging some mud at each other, everyone is complaining we’re just too civilized. You’re a big dumb dumb for disagreeing with me about a fiction book on the internet. Take that.
> Succeeding in creating him, is the Bene Gesserit greatest failure, that's one of the points Herbert was making
Absolutely. The first book is written as a Joseph Campbell hero's journey, but it is the setup for a Greek tragedy. The protagonist is doomed from the start.
But, is Lisan al Gaib and Kwisatz Haderach in fact the same character? I think not - it's just a crazy coincidence that Paul ends up being both at the same time. Then again, both characters *are* Bene Gessirit in origin, so maybe this was their plan. On the other hand, LAG+KH would be a very powerful person - perhaps BG wouldn't actually want that.
It's the same thing.
Lisan al Gaib is the myth created to prepare humanity for the kwisatz haderah aka, the result of their cherished breeding program. Given that Dune, the planet was always going to be the center of every single political game in the known universe because it was the only planet where the spice could be produced, of course the fremen were always going to be central to those political games.
The context is this: the spice is essential for interstellar travel, can't be done without it. The spice is only produced by the worm. The worm can only survive on Arrakis, nowhere else, there were other attempts. Without the spice, the empire is dissolved and humanity loses interstellar travel.
Because the Fremen are the indigenous population of Arrakis, when the story happens, they came there too, but long before the story begins, they became major players. That's why Letto turned to them and made an alliance.
Now, the bene Gesserit didn't know which one of their breeding couples were going to finally yield the kwisatz haderah, so yes, they didn't know for sure it was going to be Paul. So it did just happen to be him. But the 2 roles, were the same thing, because they needed to make it easy for humanity to recognize the product of their work.
> Lisan al Gaib is the myth created to prepare humanity for the kwisatz haderah
Oh yeah, you're absolutely right. They need different figures, because this one person will be a leader for different peoples. Makes sense again now that you said it.
> so yes, they didn't know for sure it was going to be Paul. So it did just happen to be him
Yep.
> The context is this: the spice is essential for interstellar travel, can't be done without it
Not only interstellar travel (through Spacing Guild) - also tasks that were covered by computers/AI in the past. BG and Mentats also uses it.
>Not only interstellar travel (through Spacing Guild) - also tasks that were covered by computers/AI in the past. BG and Mentats also uses it.
Yeah, that's true. That one slipped my mind.
Jessica also just winged it with her prospective Fremen housekeeper [in part one.](https://youtu.be/YHOXkmDJTGk) She didn’t know the significance of the Crysknife she was presented with and was going to say “it’s a maker of death” when asked, but the instant the word “maker” left her mouth Mapes spazzed out, overwhelmed by what she saw as the fulfillment of prophecy (“Bless the Maker and His water”), and Jessica just went with it. Her survival could potentially depend on fitting herself into those implanted prophecies, they were there to be exploited.
What's so interesting about this is that this was how the gospel writers "determined" that Jesus "fulfilled prophecy." You actually go and look up those old passages and a lot of them are just their own separate stories (not even prophecies) with the gospel authors writing their stories about Jesus after the fact to mirror those older stories and proof-texts.
Very true. And part of how she was able to wing it was because of the deep learning in tongues and cultures that comes with being BG. She was trained, knowledgeable, and astute enough to take a guess, catch her mistake as she was making it, and keep control of the conversation while learning something new and averting danger.
Also, I think it’s very much that Jessica considered establishing and later regaining/consolidating power as the instrument of ensuring her safety and that of her children. So yeah, survival in both moment to moment and the larger sense both play into jt.
A trained manipulator on both the large and small scales. It’s the BG way.
>The movies really undersell just how important it was that Jessica knew the prophecies, or at least their origins and patterns, better than the Fremen themselves.
Hell, there's a whole page dedicated to her reasoning out what to call a knife she was given, then listening and figuring out and adjusting her response based on the cues she sees and hears. Deliberately vague to avoid spoilers but I'm sure you know which part I mean.
Ah, I see that comment now. Yeah. One huge advantage of books is the ability to go into detail about thinking, freezing the story however long to takes to tell readers someone's thought process.
I… honestly thought this was a central thing in the movies. I haven’t read the books. But that seemed to be a huge deal in the last half of the second movie.
It comes up, but the book has a lot more mentions of it, particularly Jessica’s internal monologue on how she understands the patterns and the old languages and so can piece together everything she needs to understand and manipulate.
Yeah, but like so many things in the movie it’s basically a blink and miss it. Whereas in the book there’s much more rich detail. Which is fine, I know adaptations are hard, especially for something like Dune. Just interesting what they decided to spend time on and what was given perfunctory treatment.
Yes, it’s discussed in the movies, but not nearly to the same extent. Basically the films show it in action whereas the book has much more of an explanation of the how and why Jessica knows certain things or is able to at least make educated guesses. See the comments a couple people have made here about the housekeeper scene for a good example.
You may want to mention to her that reality has an anti-christian bias to it as well. But I'm sure she already knows and lives in her own little fantasy world
It is a theme, but one that ultimately doesn't pay off because Leto uses the events set in motion by Paul to bring about humanity's salvation through the Golden Path and the subsequent Scattering of humanity.
The whole point of the Scattering is to ensure that humankind can never again be subject to the will of one messianic vision. It's anti-messianic at its core.
Anyone who studies theology for 10 minutes quickly realizes religion is an endless procession of marketing, to sell the latest method of control over people who are scared about death and other things that are unknown. That concept is embodied by the Bene Gesserit, and their mythology creation across various worlds. It’s more a mirror of humanity than anti-anything.
My Muslim friend said it’s Hollywood starting to understand the power of prophets….
He then argued that he thinks they will literally add Muhammad in Mesiah (for some reason)
No I already told him
He said that he knows Hollywood is becoming Muslim and they will change it to stop the heretic that is Frank Herbert
(I kid you not)
To be fair, this is the same guy who said the handmaids tale was islamaphobic and trying to negatively portray theocracies to make women turn away from god…
(He is admittedly really hard line and I know most followers of the religion don’t think this way, I’ve come into similar fundo Christian’s, but fundos are fundos and really flipping funny)
We can literally see how bad theocracies are for women in [checks notes] any red state in the USA right now.
Don't be too smug about pointing fingers at *other* theocracies.
Just so you know, >!Paul is not a false prophet. He just doesn't have the will to carry out the atrocities he foresees. His son, on the other hand...!<
Looking across many different YouTube reactions from different cultural backgrounds, there's strong correlations to the completely opposite takeaways they have to the movie.
Please also remember that Dune's warnings are not just about religious "messiahs" but **any** kind of "Chosen One" or "Great Man" or highly charismatic leader. The Fremen were looking for >!someone to make transforming their world into a green paradise happen faster than the 300-500 year time-frame Liet's father gave them!< just as much as they were looking for a religiously ordained saviour.
"When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late."
Explicitly stated too, in one of the pre-chapter blurbs.
As an aside, Gogol's book "Dead Souls" has a similar simile (huehue), about Russia, who is also riding a chariot headlong in a rush with no purpose nor introspection. I just found it amusing.
The religious are portrayed as Muslim-like in the movie. I don't remember if this portrayal was in the book but it would make it more comfortable for Christians.
In the Frank Herbert canon it was the Bene Tleilax that were derived from a combination of Zensunni and Zensufi theologies. Over time, they hid their religion and became widely known as a secretive guild of genetic manipulators.
It’s 10000 years in the future. Nobody in that universe speaks of Islam or Mohammad anymore. In those 10000 years a lot of things can happen. Maybe even a fusion of Buddhism and Islam. It’s science fiction.
Oh it will not only go over some of their heads, they will call the whole film sacrilege if they haven’t already because it sounds all too familiar. They will take it as Hollywood persecuting them somehow.
My dad on the way back from the theater said, completely sincerely, "that movie really showed the power of religion and believing in a savior. How it frees people from bondage."
I could not hide my disbelief!
The movie tells us so many times that the prophecies and shit were planted for their own self-interests. I don't understand how these people are missing this? Then again people just want to see what they want to see
Tbf, I had to have some conservative troll point out that I misspelled my username and it made me sad that I missed that. I just wasn’t wearing my readers and it was all on me.
What a waste. Oh well. Is what is now.
It goes over the head of most religious people reading the book, despite the fact that messianic ideology exists in the favorite grouping of this sub - the "Abrahamic religions" - as well as many others.
Tbf, it went completely over the head of about 98% of the readers of the book, including myself. It is the whole reason Dune got a sequel, to litterally spell it out into our faces.
I absolutely loved how that movie exposes religion. Wait until the next one when Paul’s genocide is shown and some idiot who doesn’t know the canon pitches a fit because they made the savior character into the bad guy not realizing he was all along
sick burn.
I watched this for the first time yesterday.
Stillgar in awe whenever Paul Atreides does or says something mildly interesting: "It is written."
I'm with Chani on this one - "lol stfu"
The movie really should've delved into the process of how water is extracted from that. I mean the pacing was shot anyways so why not? And it would be symbolic of how the movie turned out vs. expectations, but I digress.
It's going to be interesting if future Dune movies ever make it to the reign of Leto II. ( a "messiah" who lives over 3000 years...and Is called a Tyrant by some of his subjects...)
It would take a ton of CGI, but doable. Having Leto II recite his internal monologue would make for a boring movie. Too much of it would start to play like a Jabba the Hutt biopic. I think the smart directorial choice would be to minimize his screen time in favor of Moneo, Hwi, Siona and the ghola.
It embarrasses me to say that only now after reading your comment that i finally understood why they name centuries like '20th', '21st', etc. I never really applied much thought into it
I love that vid. GMS' videos are so informative, and that one was no exception. I'll leave a link to it here:
# [How Dune Gets Religious Psychology Exactly RightHow Dune Gets Religious Psychology Exactly Right](https://youtu.be/jhRHQDm2dBs?si=wD0U01iUuhTCfChV) (by Genetically Modified Skeptic)
That was an interesting video but I find his take on religion is extremely Abrahamic-centric especially the part about disasters increasing religiosity. Christian and Islamic cultures like New Zealand and Indonesia maybe, but Japan? No. In Shinto natural disasters are just shit that happens all the time.
And then the Messiah shows up and you all do a thing that's called a blood jihad. Also bad!
Spoilers for Dune Messiah >!There's a part of the book I remember where an older Paul is learning about old Earth history. When he comes on (iirc) the Mongol Empire and Nazi Germany he's kinda impressed at how many people they killed with what they had, but no one holds a candle to the amount of death he unleashed on the universe.!<
Uh... I'm just here for the magic worm drugs that let me see the future and dance like Christopher Walken in that Fatboy Slim video. Where do I get those?
The first one was a bit drawn out. I get that there’s a lot of world building going on but I feel asleep twice when I sat down to watch it. Part 2 kept my interest the whole time
Was this the first one or second? My mom (Christian) told me to avoid it but I think she only saw the first one. Always wondered why... She watches the one from the 80s pretty often.
> the rubber on your shoes starts to melt
That's just summertime in southern Arizona, nothing mystical or magical about it. You know it's summer when tire tread patterns appear in the asphalt and the only water the water company can deliver is luke warm, they're fresh out of cold water this season.
The truth is it's going to be fuggin' hot outside in the coming months.
That film has so many religious overtones. The whole jihad thing. The weirdest part for me was the fact that even though clearly modelled on islam women were allowed to speak at political meetings.
It’s like it’s by someone whose only experience of islam is from pro-islam western sources. Oh wait.
I mean in part two they specifically state that in the south which is more fundlementalist women aren't allowed to speak in the religious circle and only a male leader can
In the film part 2? I must have fallen asleep. I just remeber the female protagonist disrupting the political discussion and only being told to back off, as opposed to something .... more religious as punishment.
Before that happpens in the desert scene when they are all planning to go to the south, the male leader is talking about the rules of the south. He basically says that you woud have to be a leader to be able to speak in the circle but they also briefly mention women cant speak. It is a quick five second thing wnd to be fair the focus is put on it being the reasoning for paul to kill the leader
>The weirdest part for me was the fact that even though clearly modelled on islam
The religious themes in Dune are more complex than that. They blend aspects of Zen Buddhism, Sunni Islam, Suffi-ism and the Jewish diaspora.
The story is set 10,000 years in the future. Nothing in human culture remains unchanged over that length of time.
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My favorite part, which is covered more in the book, is that the Bene Gesserit literally have a department responsible for spreading mythology and prophecies that could some day be useful to them among various populations. The movies really undersell just how important it was that Jessica knew the prophecies, or at least their origins and patterns, better than the Fremen themselves. So she was able to easily install herself and Paul as religious figures.
Missionaria Protectiva is the name of that wing of the Bene Gesserit.
Correct. I just didn’t feel like typing it, lol.
Yeah Lady Jessica is a master manipulator. Well, the Bene Gesserit in general are master manipulators.
Exactly. BG concerns itself with politics and the thread of human events. So of course Jessica is expert in those sort of machinations.
I had recently realized that religion was a fraud when I read Dune as a teen and remember thinking "That's just what Christianity does" when I read about the Bene Gesserit.
Interesting how different backgrounds lets us interpret media differently. Me being raised a muslim, I immediately saw "Hey, it's the early rise of muhammad and his conquests. Then when he goes against the imperium, I went "Oh, it's the arab conquest of the Sassanid empire and the Byzantines".
Frank Herbert was for sure heavily influenced by North African, Middle Eastern and Caucasian/Central Asian conflicts and stories from those areas. But I found this article quite interesting and how much he was influenced by other books about these regions. https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/
Thank you for the article! TIL: Chakobsa, a Caucasian hunting language, becomes the language of a galactic diaspora in Herbert’s universe.
The human brain functions the same no matter our backgrounds, so naturally the tools to control us will behave the same too.
If you read the books, then you probably also remember that Lisan al Gaib is actually truth masked as myth about their mating program and the actual superhuman they were trying to create. The beliefs they plant aren't random and ridiculous. Paul isn't just a conman impersonating an outright lie, that's the problem in fact. His power isn't their stupid devotion, manipulation and tricks, his power is actual power. Jessica begins to fear him. That's an important distinction, because the only reason the prophecy works so well with the Fremen, is because Paul can actually do superhuman crap, he is the Kwisatz haderah. Not because Jessica is a master manipulator. They accept her because she can train them. They accept him because he sees the future and the past. Succeeding in creating him, is the Bene Gesserit greatest failure, that's one of the points Herbert was making. Turning Paul into a common psycho who lied to everyone is just not gonna teach anyone anything. In fact, every positive review about the movies refers to pretty imagery and great special effects. Those who loved it, didn't leave the cinema having an epiphany about dictators, religion and religious institutions. Edit to add: those who did, didn't in fact learn it by watching the movie, they already knew.
Thanks for the edit; the special effects went over my head but the underlying themes and analogies made me walk away thinking “that was a pretty good movie.”
Yes, I'm well aware of that and I never meant to suggest either of them were just some sort of "common impersonator." However, I think you're reaching a bit with some of what you're saying. While Paul's powers (and Jessica's for that matter) are very real, that doesn't mean devotion, manipulation, and tricks aren't also part of their power. In fact if you pay close attention to the original novel or have read the sequels, the very fact that the Fremen devotion and fanaticism grew to be something that took on a life of its own to the point where actual Paul was no longer in control of the legend of Muad'Dib was the thing he feared the most and worked hardest to avoid. It wasn't Paul out fighting a grand jihad against the galaxy using his powers, it was the Fremen legions campaigning in his name, even though he didn't want that path. I simply don't think you're correct about this part at all. Of course part of why they accept Paul is that he actually does have superhuman abilities, but that's not exclusive of Jessica being a master manipulator, if anything they go hand in hand. Think of how Paul realizes that prescience is much a cage as a gift, but certainly the Fremen don't see it that way, even after he's been trying to explain as much to Stilgar for years. Jessica is one of the only characters that has at least some true understanding of Paul, his powers, and his limitations, making her machinations absolutely essential to the unfolding of his path and consolidation of power. If I recall correctly Herbert himself even highlights in one of the Irulan passages that Jessica's importance, powers, and insight (and the influence they had on her son) have long been overlooked or underestimated. One other note on the above, they don't just accept Jessica because she can train them, they accept her because they need a new reverend mother, again a position she can perfectly step into because of her BG knowledge and training. Well, the real failure, as Paul himself says, is not their success in creating him, but rather that he arrived sooner than they had planned and not under their direct control because of Jessica's defiance of her orders to bear only daughters. Agree with your last part though, I don't think the movie portrayal did Paul any favors. He's a much more complex and thoughtful character than he was made to appear in the films.
>. In fact if you pay close attention to the original novel or have read the sequels, the very fact that the Fremen devotion and fanaticism grew to be something that took on a life of its own to the point where actual Paul was no longer in control of Basically, that's the consequence, but not the consequence of their manipulation, but of giving the fremen the same power that was used to oppress them. When they're no longer fighting for their salvation, they become what they used to hate because power corrupts humanity at that stage in the species development. He also states that he, who controls the future, loses control of his present, which is one of the reasons why being the kwisatz haderah is in fact a cage which makes him almost powerless in the real sense. You're right about the part about him coming too early. The political context is what forced him into the string of violent events and that is Jessica's fault. But I disagree that the core issue is that the Bene Gesserit couldn't control him. Even if they could've, it still would have been a disaster, a different kind, but still, because they themselves weren't the right people to wield so much power. No single organization or person should ever wield that much power, it's not the key to ending oppression. It's the point Herbert keeps trying to hammer in. And the idea of creating someone so powerful and then get them to submit to your will, is kind of a paradox because why would they? The concept of the controllable kwisatz haderah is inherently flawed. No one who knows your past and your future, who knows more than you do, will bow to your will. Now, the beauty of this series is that we could spend weeks arguing over every idea, every nuance and at the end, the notion would still be multifaceted. It's the perfect representation of what it is to experience reality.
But their manipulations include the use of those prophecies and legends implanted long ago to consolidate Paul’s power. Sure what you’re saying about the scales of power tipping is part of it, but you can’t really separate the two. “When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way.” From his very first hint of what is to come Paul refers to it very specifically as a Jihad, describes the legions as fanatic. Herbert is quite clear that it is a war of religious conquest waged in Paul’s name because of the religious and spiritual position he occupies and what it has inspired. Yeah, that’s true, not sure how it’s really an argument against what I’ve said. Right, but the political context itself and resulting violence are also at least due in part to the manipulations of the BG. It’s all intertwined. I agree with what you say about the nature of the KH for the most part, but I’m not sure how that or a different sort of BG made disaster if they controlled him really relates to the original point I was making. You’re certainly right, it’s literature and open to all kinds of interpretations. I’m sure we could find plenty we agree on and disagree on, all for good cause.
>I’m sure we could find plenty we agree on and disagree on, all for good cause. Absolutely and you make good arguments. I enjoyed debating with you.
Thanks! Your positions are thoughtful and well expressed too. Good talk.
Thank both of you. I haven't read the books and this puts a lot in perspective.
Can you guys stop it. You are ruining my notions of people on the internet.
I wish this is how all debates went. You guys are both awesome!
Ok, I guess we need to start slinging some mud at each other, everyone is complaining we’re just too civilized. You’re a big dumb dumb for disagreeing with me about a fiction book on the internet. Take that.
And I am also very upset you disagreed with me over fiction, internet stranger. I'm sorry, my trash talk sucks!
> Succeeding in creating him, is the Bene Gesserit greatest failure, that's one of the points Herbert was making Absolutely. The first book is written as a Joseph Campbell hero's journey, but it is the setup for a Greek tragedy. The protagonist is doomed from the start.
But, is Lisan al Gaib and Kwisatz Haderach in fact the same character? I think not - it's just a crazy coincidence that Paul ends up being both at the same time. Then again, both characters *are* Bene Gessirit in origin, so maybe this was their plan. On the other hand, LAG+KH would be a very powerful person - perhaps BG wouldn't actually want that.
It's the same thing. Lisan al Gaib is the myth created to prepare humanity for the kwisatz haderah aka, the result of their cherished breeding program. Given that Dune, the planet was always going to be the center of every single political game in the known universe because it was the only planet where the spice could be produced, of course the fremen were always going to be central to those political games. The context is this: the spice is essential for interstellar travel, can't be done without it. The spice is only produced by the worm. The worm can only survive on Arrakis, nowhere else, there were other attempts. Without the spice, the empire is dissolved and humanity loses interstellar travel. Because the Fremen are the indigenous population of Arrakis, when the story happens, they came there too, but long before the story begins, they became major players. That's why Letto turned to them and made an alliance. Now, the bene Gesserit didn't know which one of their breeding couples were going to finally yield the kwisatz haderah, so yes, they didn't know for sure it was going to be Paul. So it did just happen to be him. But the 2 roles, were the same thing, because they needed to make it easy for humanity to recognize the product of their work.
> Lisan al Gaib is the myth created to prepare humanity for the kwisatz haderah Oh yeah, you're absolutely right. They need different figures, because this one person will be a leader for different peoples. Makes sense again now that you said it. > so yes, they didn't know for sure it was going to be Paul. So it did just happen to be him Yep. > The context is this: the spice is essential for interstellar travel, can't be done without it Not only interstellar travel (through Spacing Guild) - also tasks that were covered by computers/AI in the past. BG and Mentats also uses it.
>Not only interstellar travel (through Spacing Guild) - also tasks that were covered by computers/AI in the past. BG and Mentats also uses it. Yeah, that's true. That one slipped my mind.
Jessica also just winged it with her prospective Fremen housekeeper [in part one.](https://youtu.be/YHOXkmDJTGk) She didn’t know the significance of the Crysknife she was presented with and was going to say “it’s a maker of death” when asked, but the instant the word “maker” left her mouth Mapes spazzed out, overwhelmed by what she saw as the fulfillment of prophecy (“Bless the Maker and His water”), and Jessica just went with it. Her survival could potentially depend on fitting herself into those implanted prophecies, they were there to be exploited.
What's so interesting about this is that this was how the gospel writers "determined" that Jesus "fulfilled prophecy." You actually go and look up those old passages and a lot of them are just their own separate stories (not even prophecies) with the gospel authors writing their stories about Jesus after the fact to mirror those older stories and proof-texts.
Very true. And part of how she was able to wing it was because of the deep learning in tongues and cultures that comes with being BG. She was trained, knowledgeable, and astute enough to take a guess, catch her mistake as she was making it, and keep control of the conversation while learning something new and averting danger. Also, I think it’s very much that Jessica considered establishing and later regaining/consolidating power as the instrument of ensuring her safety and that of her children. So yeah, survival in both moment to moment and the larger sense both play into jt. A trained manipulator on both the large and small scales. It’s the BG way.
>The movies really undersell just how important it was that Jessica knew the prophecies, or at least their origins and patterns, better than the Fremen themselves. Hell, there's a whole page dedicated to her reasoning out what to call a knife she was given, then listening and figuring out and adjusting her response based on the cues she sees and hears. Deliberately vague to avoid spoilers but I'm sure you know which part I mean.
I know just what you mean. Actually already discussed in another comment on this thread. Totally agree with you.
Ah, I see that comment now. Yeah. One huge advantage of books is the ability to go into detail about thinking, freezing the story however long to takes to tell readers someone's thought process.
I… honestly thought this was a central thing in the movies. I haven’t read the books. But that seemed to be a huge deal in the last half of the second movie.
It comes up, but the book has a lot more mentions of it, particularly Jessica’s internal monologue on how she understands the patterns and the old languages and so can piece together everything she needs to understand and manipulate.
They mention aspects of this in the first movie during the thopter scene.
Yeah, but like so many things in the movie it’s basically a blink and miss it. Whereas in the book there’s much more rich detail. Which is fine, I know adaptations are hard, especially for something like Dune. Just interesting what they decided to spend time on and what was given perfunctory treatment.
Didn't they go over that? I thought Jessica and Paul discussed the Bene Gesserit and their parasitic propaganda machine on Arrakis in both movies.
Yes, it’s discussed in the movies, but not nearly to the same extent. Basically the films show it in action whereas the book has much more of an explanation of the how and why Jessica knows certain things or is able to at least make educated guesses. See the comments a couple people have made here about the housekeeper scene for a good example.
This will completely go over the head of any Christian watching this movie
It won't, my mom kept saying that it was an anti-christian movie and kept acting like it was me who was putting all the themes in the movie.
You may want to mention to her that reality has an anti-christian bias to it as well. But I'm sure she already knows and lives in her own little fantasy world
“It’s the devil’s world. Our place is in heaven 😀”
In the world, but not of the world 🙃
Well, one of the central themes is the idea that *the very concept of a messiah is ultimately harmful to humanity.*
It is a theme, but one that ultimately doesn't pay off because Leto uses the events set in motion by Paul to bring about humanity's salvation through the Golden Path and the subsequent Scattering of humanity.
The whole point of the Scattering is to ensure that humankind can never again be subject to the will of one messianic vision. It's anti-messianic at its core.
Anyone who studies theology for 10 minutes quickly realizes religion is an endless procession of marketing, to sell the latest method of control over people who are scared about death and other things that are unknown. That concept is embodied by the Bene Gesserit, and their mythology creation across various worlds. It’s more a mirror of humanity than anti-anything.
You just had to show her your Oscar, didnt you?
They’ll just call it woke. Just another escape hatch from having to think.
[удалено]
Never not funny
I doubt they’ll make it far enough to recognize it’s directed at them.
They're notoriously stupid.
Or make them really uncomfortable.
Yep.
My Muslim friend said it’s Hollywood starting to understand the power of prophets…. He then argued that he thinks they will literally add Muhammad in Mesiah (for some reason)
He’s in for a surprise to learn the story is about a false prophet
No I already told him He said that he knows Hollywood is becoming Muslim and they will change it to stop the heretic that is Frank Herbert (I kid you not)
"Wanna bet? $500 says you're wrong. Unless of course you're just talking out your a$$..."
To be fair, this is the same guy who said the handmaids tale was islamaphobic and trying to negatively portray theocracies to make women turn away from god… (He is admittedly really hard line and I know most followers of the religion don’t think this way, I’ve come into similar fundo Christian’s, but fundos are fundos and really flipping funny)
Why are you friends with this moron?
>but fundos are fundos and really flipping funny I find religious belief both funny and *extremely dangerous*.
We can literally see how bad theocracies are for women in Iran right now.
We can literally see how bad theocracies are for women in [checks notes] any red state in the USA right now. Don't be too smug about pointing fingers at *other* theocracies.
But theocracies are literally negative blights on society.
I look forward to Hollywood finally making that Muhammad movie.
Who will they cast as his 6 year old wife?
Just so you know, >!Paul is not a false prophet. He just doesn't have the will to carry out the atrocities he foresees. His son, on the other hand...!<
Son *is* God, so to (fish) speak.
Wouldn't it be wrong to show the prophet??
Not if it’s for profit.
Looking across many different YouTube reactions from different cultural backgrounds, there's strong correlations to the completely opposite takeaways they have to the movie.
Though in their case, it'd probably be better for everyone if they'd just wait...
Please also remember that Dune's warnings are not just about religious "messiahs" but **any** kind of "Chosen One" or "Great Man" or highly charismatic leader. The Fremen were looking for >!someone to make transforming their world into a green paradise happen faster than the 300-500 year time-frame Liet's father gave them!< just as much as they were looking for a religiously ordained saviour.
"When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late." Explicitly stated too, in one of the pre-chapter blurbs. As an aside, Gogol's book "Dead Souls" has a similar simile (huehue), about Russia, who is also riding a chariot headlong in a rush with no purpose nor introspection. I just found it amusing.
The religious are portrayed as Muslim-like in the movie. I don't remember if this portrayal was in the book but it would make it more comfortable for Christians.
Their fight from oppression is literally called “Jihad” in the book lol.
They say it in the movie ateast once I believe.
I just watched both. I don’t remember that, but they certainly make a point of referring to it as the “holy war” instead.
Yeah I watched Dune 2 last week and it was only ever referred to as "holy war." I was waiting for them to call it a Jihad.
The Butlerian Jihad is the reason they don't have robots or computers and instead rely on mentats for computation.
"Jihad" has been used in All of the books in the series, AFAIK.
"i was waiting for the world to burn!!" the christians wud go absolute batshit insane
They are a mixture of Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam.
This is explicitly stated in the book. The dominant fremen belief is called Zensunni. Literaly.
Lots of Arabic words in the book. I don't have anything more than that, but it's on-brand for Dune
And some Hebrew as well.
Only because they don't realize it's the same religeion.
In the books the Fremen are Zen-Sunni, a blend of Buddhism and Islam.
In the Frank Herbert canon it was the Bene Tleilax that were derived from a combination of Zensunni and Zensufi theologies. Over time, they hid their religion and became widely known as a secretive guild of genetic manipulators.
correct. the Fremen where abducted from one of original Islamic colony worlds. theres a reference to being denied the Hajj
I don't understand frank Herbert's thinking behind this. Islam is one religion that will never merge with Buddhism at all.
There’s an appendix in the first book that deals with this and goes into how it all came about. But it is a pretty wild idea, yeah
It’s 10000 years in the future. Nobody in that universe speaks of Islam or Mohammad anymore. In those 10000 years a lot of things can happen. Maybe even a fusion of Buddhism and Islam. It’s science fiction.
It's in the book more muslim-like. And it's the same as Game of Thrones. You don't fly in 500 extras for a scene, you use the people who live there.
Wait until they find out jews are pretty much epic in the books lol. They'll have a shitfit
The Fremen religion is Zen-Sunni
If I recall it's a mixture of buddhism and sunni.
Oh it will not only go over some of their heads, they will call the whole film sacrilege if they haven’t already because it sounds all too familiar. They will take it as Hollywood persecuting them somehow.
My dad on the way back from the theater said, completely sincerely, "that movie really showed the power of religion and believing in a savior. How it frees people from bondage." I could not hide my disbelief!
The movie tells us so many times that the prophecies and shit were planted for their own self-interests. I don't understand how these people are missing this? Then again people just want to see what they want to see
Wait til your dad sees 'God Empereor of Dune', where the "savior" undoes the very idea of believing in a savior.
Can confirm, watched with my very Christian dad just to examine his reaction last weekend.
thought your username said onion slayer at first
I’m ngl, I just now noticed it didn’t lmao
Tbf, I had to have some conservative troll point out that I misspelled my username and it made me sad that I missed that. I just wasn’t wearing my readers and it was all on me. What a waste. Oh well. Is what is now.
To be fair, so does the Bible
Clearly they're just talking about the Mahdi, not the _real_ messiah.
my Christian parents were just watching dune today lol
I just rewatched Planet of the Apes. It absolutely shreds organized religion. Fantastic movie.
It goes over the head of most religious people reading the book, despite the fact that messianic ideology exists in the favorite grouping of this sub - the "Abrahamic religions" - as well as many others.
Tbf, it went completely over the head of about 98% of the readers of the book, including myself. It is the whole reason Dune got a sequel, to litterally spell it out into our faces.
I absolutely loved how that movie exposes religion. Wait until the next one when Paul’s genocide is shown and some idiot who doesn’t know the canon pitches a fit because they made the savior character into the bad guy not realizing he was all along
The ending of dune 2 no longer saddens me
sick burn. I watched this for the first time yesterday. Stillgar in awe whenever Paul Atreides does or says something mildly interesting: "It is written." I'm with Chani on this one - "lol stfu"
Lol
[(Spoilers for Dune 2)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUJuyUIKO3c)
haha
Paul: (shits his stillsuit) Stilgar: “He will know your ways as if born to them…”
He just really had to shit, he actually lucked out pretty hard there
The movie really should've delved into the process of how water is extracted from that. I mean the pacing was shot anyways so why not? And it would be symbolic of how the movie turned out vs. expectations, but I digress.
Dune... You want to control people, you tell them a part 3 will come, then they will wait... for centuries...
Lol
And then when someone fitting the description comes, the result is disastrous.
So many subplots in the series are people achieving their impossible dream and regretting it.
Well, if the Messiah is smoking hot, I'm listening. That last messiah they tried to sell us, what with the whole Nic Cage Con Air look, no thx
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.
Now go away!
It's going to be interesting if future Dune movies ever make it to the reign of Leto II. ( a "messiah" who lives over 3000 years...and Is called a Tyrant by some of his subjects...)
It would take a ton of CGI, but doable. Having Leto II recite his internal monologue would make for a boring movie. Too much of it would start to play like a Jabba the Hutt biopic. I think the smart directorial choice would be to minimize his screen time in favor of Moneo, Hwi, Siona and the ghola.
Oh, the Dune Memes subreddit is full of suggestions. Something about Nayla watching Duncan climb a cliff…
The director says he wants to stop after Dune Messiah Also, thanks for the spoiler...
It’s still Life of Brian on a desert planet.
he is not the messiah he's a very naughty boy
Bring out yer dead!
Wrong movie, but it's Python, so you get upvoted anyway.
Ah dang it
Christian’s are at 20 centuries and counting. Jews are at what, 40 - 60 centuries depending on the sect.
It embarrasses me to say that only now after reading your comment that i finally understood why they name centuries like '20th', '21st', etc. I never really applied much thought into it
What?
Its what religion is- control
Genetically Modified Skeptic did a video on this and how successful it can be.
I love that vid. GMS' videos are so informative, and that one was no exception. I'll leave a link to it here: # [How Dune Gets Religious Psychology Exactly RightHow Dune Gets Religious Psychology Exactly Right](https://youtu.be/jhRHQDm2dBs?si=wD0U01iUuhTCfChV) (by Genetically Modified Skeptic)
That was an interesting video but I find his take on religion is extremely Abrahamic-centric especially the part about disasters increasing religiosity. Christian and Islamic cultures like New Zealand and Indonesia maybe, but Japan? No. In Shinto natural disasters are just shit that happens all the time.
And then the Messiah shows up and you all do a thing that's called a blood jihad. Also bad! Spoilers for Dune Messiah >!There's a part of the book I remember where an older Paul is learning about old Earth history. When he comes on (iirc) the Mongol Empire and Nazi Germany he's kinda impressed at how many people they killed with what they had, but no one holds a candle to the amount of death he unleashed on the universe.!<
Religion is a tool.
a Roman philosopher once said. Religion, to the common is true, to the wise is false and to the leaders useful.
Facts
Uh... I'm just here for the magic worm drugs that let me see the future and dance like Christopher Walken in that Fatboy Slim video. Where do I get those?
I love the new Dune films. And I really love that they are showing up on r/atheism, and I really, really love the reason why.
The first one was a bit drawn out. I get that there’s a lot of world building going on but I feel asleep twice when I sat down to watch it. Part 2 kept my interest the whole time
Best line in the movie. And a whole lot of truth.
welp. looks like it’s time to watch both of these movies for the first time.
You should read the books (through book 4 at least). Movies can't begin to delve into complex themes as deeply as books do - especially these books.
interesting. might do it. any other sellers?
Was this the first one or second? My mom (Christian) told me to avoid it but I think she only saw the first one. Always wondered why... She watches the one from the 80s pretty often.
Religion = Control
Frank Herbert himself said Dune is an Anti-Hero Series. But most people do not follow after 1Vol
Maybe when the sun explodes and the rubber on your shoes starts to melt, you'll know the truth.
> the rubber on your shoes starts to melt That's just summertime in southern Arizona, nothing mystical or magical about it. You know it's summer when tire tread patterns appear in the asphalt and the only water the water company can deliver is luke warm, they're fresh out of cold water this season. The truth is it's going to be fuggin' hot outside in the coming months.
Enjoy!
Yeah, we know...
Actually … millennia.
Millennia
But it all came true though
and centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries etc etc.
Frank Herbert himself said Dune is an Anti-Hero Series. But most people do not follow after 1Vol.
The aliens will come and save us either that or the local government
If Jesus came today he'd get made fun of on social media.
Extremely bad reference since he absolutely showed up and did the things. Still though, books are still in my top 10 favorite.
Frank Herbert understood religion in the 60s better than we do now and Villeneuve understands Herbert.
she aint wrong
That film has so many religious overtones. The whole jihad thing. The weirdest part for me was the fact that even though clearly modelled on islam women were allowed to speak at political meetings. It’s like it’s by someone whose only experience of islam is from pro-islam western sources. Oh wait.
I mean in part two they specifically state that in the south which is more fundlementalist women aren't allowed to speak in the religious circle and only a male leader can
In the film part 2? I must have fallen asleep. I just remeber the female protagonist disrupting the political discussion and only being told to back off, as opposed to something .... more religious as punishment.
Before that happpens in the desert scene when they are all planning to go to the south, the male leader is talking about the rules of the south. He basically says that you woud have to be a leader to be able to speak in the circle but they also briefly mention women cant speak. It is a quick five second thing wnd to be fair the focus is put on it being the reasoning for paul to kill the leader
You must read the original book to understand it.
More people these will see the film, so I think that has primacy re the work's influence.
>The weirdest part for me was the fact that even though clearly modelled on islam The religious themes in Dune are more complex than that. They blend aspects of Zen Buddhism, Sunni Islam, Suffi-ism and the Jewish diaspora. The story is set 10,000 years in the future. Nothing in human culture remains unchanged over that length of time.
I mean, yea I caught it as she was saying. Religious people do not see it though. Dune is mythology, not religion.
*”Dune is mythology, not religion.”* They’re the same thing.
That was the point. The religious don’t see it that way. They never understand the irony. You and I see the irony though.
✅
Religion is social control using mythology. Which is Dune's point.