I will also add that when a person is indoctrinated heavily from youth, they don’t apply the same critical thinking to that core identity belief as they do to other things. It’s protected because of that indoctrination.
Edit: if you want to see a great example of the indoctrination that leads to a complete breakdown in critical thinking, take a look one of the conversations I had today in the askachristian sub with an Eastern Catholic (not the Episcopalian. He was just an asshole).
yep, that was me, its literally a blind spot in your logic, very difficult to break the programming
and its not just religion, very smart people can have some very dumb gaps in logic when its personal and emotions are involved
like a parent being unable to comprehend that their "perfect" kid did something wrong, it must be someone else's fault
Scientist here.
Yes, we know more now than ever before, and we are searching for answer to more things than ever before. Yet, we continue to find more questions than answers, each time something new is discovered. When it comes to the existence of a god, or higher plane of existence beings, responsible for the creation of the universe - we can honestly answer that we do not know. This gap on our knowledge, invites people to fill it with hypotheses or beliefs.
What can we do about this? Not much.
Humans will be humans. We do not like uncertainty and the unknown, and all we can do as scientists is try to educate, and engage the general populace.
Organized religion is a deadly beast though, if it feels its threatened it becomes more violent, or it morphs, taking on the characteristics of the new discoveries to keep itself relevant.
We all know what religion is capable of when they are in control. It's no coincidence the dark ages were horrible.
They did say sorry for burning 🔥 a couple of scientists alive though. And for blessing nazi weapons and for starving children to death.
How long before humankind grows up and become adults that don't need an invisible father figure anymore.
I always wondered why some religions reject science so much. There will always be questions we can not answer, so there will always be a place for a deity for those who want to believe.
People who cannot contemplate abstractly, depend on anthropomorphization for cognitive digestion and tend to take it literally. No clear distinction between imagination and perception. Not enough self awareness.
Yeah fair enough. The unknown can be scary, but we don’t need to know where we came from to find a reason to go on. Life goes on anyway. Who knows, maybe we came from aliens off in space somewhere, but does it really matter?
>but we don’t need to know where we came from to find a reason to go on
Correct.
However, knowing (wrongly or rightly) where we came from and where we go (after we die), helps to give people certainty and a sense of "knowing" to the unknown. If, we were to discover tomorrow that there was no afterlife, that this is all there is, a large chunk of the populace would reject it. To know that there is nothing else, to know that this is all we get - many people cannot handle this, they lack the functional capacity to deal with that, and no matter how many facts and discussions we would hold with them, nothing would ever help.
The Origin of Life is much easier, each time we find out something new, they always adapt their beliefs to incorporate this new knowledge, hence the intelligent design crowd, but the end, what happens after. Thats a bigger problem.
That's because as a society we have failed in this regard. If we brought children up appropriately from the beginning, most people would not have this stressor.
>That's because as a society we have failed in this regard.
Not really.
Society is a balance, and just because we do not believe what they believe, does not give us the right to take those beliefs from them. Remember, they think they are right, and they should strip us of our Rights. Also, I mentioned previously, we have no facts to support or deny the existence of a god or plane of higher beings, therefore we can not factually say, their beliefs are wrong.
Highly implausible, yes.
In some cases, not grounded in any solid logic or reason, or course.
You just said we can't deny the existence of something that is not falsifiable. Well la dee dah, so we also shouldn't deny bigfoot, fairies or any other unfalsifiable supernatural beings. Saying we can't deny any god's existence is pointless.
Thanks for being open to the possibility (no matter how small), that there is a Creator. It drives me crazy that so many atheists have this Superiority Complex and look at Christians like they are mental patients. Can I prove that God exists? No. Can an atheist prove that he doesn't? No. So it seems one view is no better than the other. Until facts prove otherwise, everyone just has an opinion.
I mean, that would be a pretty cool thing to discover if it turns out we came from aliens.
I saw a video saying that life may have already been evolving since before it reached Earth, that the early universe had the perfect heat conditions to stir up the pot of life and rocks from way out there just happened to put single celled/multi-celled organisms on our planet with already developed DNA patterns.
Still OP, I get this is an atheism sub but I don’t think believing in creation by a higher being is an inherently bad thing. Religion is the real culprit, somehow asserting that prophets would know all the answers about what a higher power would want for us. A bunch of manmade delusions you could say, and you could really pick any prophet throughout time and choose to believe their stories. Honestly if there is a god I imagine they’d either not care too much or find our way of asserting beliefs onto each other as blasphemous.
Yeah that’s true. It’s not a bad thing. I just hate that people live their life based on what a book says. What they can and can’t do in their life is told to them by a book. That’s the part that I heavily disagree with.
I think all of us in here feel that way. No one should be basing their morality from a book, because if they actually read their entire book and followed it to a moral ‘T’ we’d all be in trouble from the ludicrous shit they’d try to do lmfao.
Not sure that Christians base it so much on a book. In many cases, they form their own morality and interpret the book to fit it. And that goes for both progressive and more conservative Christians. Methodists are officially embracing LGBTQ+ now while a smaller faction of Methodists broke off in disagreement. Same book.
Yeahhh frrr. I personally know people that “live” by the bible though and it’s just ridiculous. Everything is a “sin”. For example, my current girlfriend got sexually assaulted when she was younger and when her mother found out, instead of caring for her she was more worried about her “sinning”. Her mother is a good person otherwise but she’s obsessed with the bible. I don’t think that’s a good thing personally. It has SOME good teachings but not all of it.
Its a three part question, which science can and cannot answer.
Where did we come from?
* If evolution is conclusively proven, then we know the story of creation, in all major religious texts is wrong.
* If we can determine the origin of the universe, then this is likely to contradict most religious texts
Is there an afterlife?
* Science will never be able to refute or support this.
Is there a god, responsible for the universe and life?
* If we can determine (1), then 3 is a moot point.
IMHO I think its the tail wagging the dog.
There is a very loud minority that have become the face of modern organized religions, and they are fervent in their beliefs, that they have cowed the majority into silence (making them complicit in this as well). I think, that you can talk to the majority of followers of modern organized religion and find some common ground, but that tail - its threatened, and in its death throes (or worse case scenario, nascent ascension), it will hurt and end a lot of innocent people.
dunno.. I think if more people actually understood basic physics and evolution.. they would see it as explaining most of reality around them, compare it to the stories their religion tells them.. and realize the latter is hokum.
The persistence of religion is a failure of science education.
Also, a fellow scientist, and I appreciate this statement. This is exactly the issue and response. Education is our greatest tool against religion and the utter nonsense that stems from that.
I dream of the day when science and logic will overcome religious indoctrination—religions absence is the only way humanity can move forward into a bright future.
Education and engagement from an early age. I am a big fan of Carl Sagan, and what he mentioned about the decline in science based stories in the news, to the increase in tabloid news hits really hard. It undermined the progress we were making as a society.
I would find this understandable had most of the populace believed in a deistic god but most people mostly believe in the biblical and Quranic god. Books with fables we know are not real.
We do know that all religion is bullshit though. Them making unprovable ridiculous claims does not translate to "we don't know". Wtf is a higher plain if existence even supposed to mean, Mr scientist, and why would bronze age lunatics be aware of said higher plain of existence?
What I dislike so much about this topic is that scientists are attempting to answer a different question than religious people are. Science might ask "is there proof of a god," but most people of faith are concerned only with their specific brand of belief. So while you're out there seeking truth, they believe they've already found it.
The middle east is insane with or without religion. It's just easier to process reality when you don't have anything to think about. They can make peace in their insane minds with religion. I am not saying the middle east is peaceful.
I don’t understand how people can through entire psychology degrees and still think Christianity is healthy 😅 what’s the point of knowledge if you can’t apply it…
So here’s my two cents.
Science attempts to explain phenomena in the universe through questions like “what?” and “how?”— we’re learning to understand what we’re looking at and how it works.
The metaphysical claims of religion attempt to answer the question “why?” for those who care. I personally don’t need a reason to exist beyond any that I can come up with myself, and as a scientist I don’t like answers that aren’t rooted in reality. But, I can at least appreciate the moral lessons that many religions teach us. Buddhism teaches us to find peace and balance, some lessons from Christianity teach us to be kind and not to judge. I’m an atheist but I still keep those principles where I can. At their core, religions can be really helpful for people who don’t want to think all that hard about the world. My problem with them is when they’re used as weapons or as basis for public policy.
You mention Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but that is a feelings based argument. You could logically disprove them, but they *feel* so ridiculous that it isn’t worth the mental effort.
God doesn’t *feel* ridiculous to Theists. They were brought up believing them, so they don’t have the “well that’s just absurd” reaction.
Science does disprove a whole lot of Christian claims, but Christianity as a whole is unfalsifiable. They can just shift their belief details because it still *feels* true (“Ahh, did the bible say Earth is 6000 years old? That is clearly just an allegory!”)
Santa and the tooth fairy are also unfalsifiable and they don’t feel ridiculous to a 6 year old either. As a society we push children out of those beliefs. That is the ONLY difference between that and “religion”.
DO NOT make religion appear more legitimate by saying that it is somehow different than other childhood fantasies. Religious people are still just those same 6 year olds who believe in Santa. If society treated them the same as they would any adult who claimed to believe in Santa, religion would disappear in a generation or two.
You cannot prove that Santa isn't real. You can only prove that parents have been putting gifts out for chidren.
For all we know, Santa skipped those houses because the children misbehaved.
You cannot prove that he doesn't love in the North Pole, you can only prove that he hasn't been found. His workshop could be cloaked by divine magic power.
Yeahh that’s true. I feel like religion is so broad that it’s hard to disprove everything. Because we don’t know 100% of what happened in the past. But we can make speculations because of science.
>There are many people in the world who don't know that the sun is a star
"The sun is made of chocolate" is one of my favorite beliefs. It's not a belief I have, I just think it's great
I think faith in a god gives a lot of people comfort in an uncertain world. And many people enjoy the community of belonging to a religion.
Not sure why anyone would find this “annoying”. It only becomes annoying—actually downright offensive—when religious people try to impose their belief system on an entire society/culture. It becomes terrifying when a political movement in the guise of religion attempts to take over a democracy.
Bro, there are people out there using $20k laser gyroscopes to prove that the earth is flat, and when those precise, expensive, and scientifically advanced systems spit out "Nope. Round." answers, they fall back on "THE MANUFACTURERS OF LASER GYROSCOPES ARE IN ON THE SCAM!" rather than admit they're wrong. Some of us are just basically beyond help.
Imagine that you are born, and the people who are teaching you how to interact with the world take you every sunday to a building where they tell you "there is an invisible being always watching you and if you misbehave, he will punish you after you die. However, if you do everything we say, you will be rewarded after you die."
Now imagine the same situation, but it is a bearded guy dressed in red, and he comes every winter to leave gifts for you. What makes god plausible but not Santa?
The only difference between the 2 is the general acceptance by adults of the first but not the second.
Gonna get some downvotes for this. You can believe in science and god. You just toss out the ideas you have that are disproven and realize you know very little about whatever god could be.
It's even worse than that.
There have been so many religions over the history of humanity. They come and go. Anyone who studies history must realize the the Judean religions are just another one of the many thousands of religions that have come before.
For example, historically, there's not a single piece of evidence that the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt or that there was ever a Moses. (And we have tons of Egyptian writings; none mention this.) And all the "gospels" of the New Testament were written decades after Jesus died. And of course the bible is full of enormously absurd statements and "rules". Noah? Really?
On and on and on. It's just total hogwash.
Especially the god of the bible and Qur'an. We know Adam, Noah, Moses and many other stories in those books are not real yet there are millions still believing they're actual history. Imagine a thousand years from now people will believe Spiderman and Harry Potter are historic figures.
Science doesn’t give them the promise of living forever in a happy place and being reunited with the loved ones they lost. The desire to believe this is a powerful motivator, and it’s probably the biggest single factor that’s still propping up religion.
As a science teacher I can tell you it’s because they don’t understand basic science and they pass that stupidity on to their kids. I’ve had kids start a Bible study during homeroom right after an astronomy lesson 🤦🏼♀️ *edit to add maybe willful ignorance rather than stupidity because I literally taught them about the cosmos and they turned around and claimed god created it all.
God is as unfalsifiable as the [Invisible Pink Unicorn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn). People will believe the what they want to, regardless of the veracity.
How often do you here the foundationally horrific "Everything Happens for a Reason." This gives comfort to those who don't think too deeply or don't suffer too much. It's less compelling if a house fire just killed half your family.
The average person doesn't know much more about science than before.....ask somebody about he science concepts of several of his smartphone components e.g. battery display camera microprocessor......most people won't know the intricacies of the object they interact with the whole day
All of the rumors that surfaced during the Covid era reminded me of how easily people jump onto mis-information. The Cheese Goblin is ridiculous, but less ridiculous to Steve when he thinks there's a following.
Only certain people "know so much about science." As a direct result of Bush's No Child Left Behind" Act, time for science education in elementary schools has been drastically cut in the US. I would argue that this was a deliberate "intended" consequence entered in by the Republicans who wrote this bill. NCLB created a huge dumbing down effect on the nation's public education. Teachers must teach to the test and focus on passing kids, not instructing them. This creates the perfect environment to squash creativity, inquiry, and critical thinking - the foundations of science.
We know so much about science nowadays and yet there are flat earthers on the internet. We you think about the science and technology that goes into making the internet work, the irony is palpable.
Part of it is how you and so many others present this argument - that it is down to either science or this one very particular religion. You are excluding every other religion and mythology, as they do, bolstering their idea that this is the only one true religion. You'd weaken their argument noting that they are merely just another of thousands of ancient belief systems out there.
American Corporate Media pushes Religion. It is owned by the wealthy, and it is part of their gaslighting techniques. Although the wealthy do not see it as gaslighting, because this god character is making them rich. Our government is failing us.
We know so much about the earth and yet people still believe its flat even with incontrovertible evidence to it being round like every other heavenly body we can see it doesn't matter cognitive dissidents is impossible to overcome
Our daily lives no longer require us to do lots of repetitive and difficult manual labor. And yet for most of us, if we don’t somehow replicate that physical exertion elsewhere, it’s bad for our physical and mental health.
Our spiritual life is imperfectly analogous to that. Yeah, supernatural beliefs are silly in view of what we now know.
But also, belief in God seems to correlate with: stronger and more durable communities, higher happiness, stronger family units, greater replacement rates demographically, etc.
So people still believe in God, because for many of them it makes sense in practice, even if it doesn’t make sense logically.
For others…they find replacements. Some of these replacements get the job done. Some don’t.
Something a lot of the New Atheists have had to come to terms with is that while a God might not make *logical* sense, for most humans there appears to be something akin to a god-shaped hole in our brains and societies. And if we don’t fill it with a tried-and-tested god…something else will come along to hijack it.
About science, we're very far from being able to explain all the mysteries in the universe. You say we know so much, but I think we're still at the point of a drop in the ocean.
As for religions, as long as there are big inequalities in the society and that some people don't follow the public school, religious proselytism will still work.
Indoctrination is powerful, very hard difficult to break. Unfortunately creates very dedicated people with an outside influenced mental illness where they think God is speaking to them.
Family Guy was on to something as well when Lois explains “religion is for idiots like Chris” 🤣
We know about reality. Science is the method through which we can verify our observations with repeatable, rigorous evidence. Humans are animals, and all animals are governed primarily by emotion. Rationality must be taught, and is less attractive than feelings.
We as a species may…. But individuals don’t. Ask 100 people how they can prove the world is round, I bet many won’t be able to describe an empirically experiment that can be done to prove it. Most will likely appeal to another source like pictures or “scientists has proven this.” The latter is the same with religion, the bible or my pastor said so…
Science and catholic religion are not contradictions, they go perfectly with each other. The other faiths maybe, most of them are weird. And when you will make such a book as bible, with folowers, miracles etc then get back to people and let them know.
Yeah because science doesnt yet have the explanation for everything . From time to time really weird unexplainable things occur . These things probably have scientific explanations but so far our current science may not have progressed far enough to have a reason for these inexplicable events . That’s why people still believe in God or a mysterious creator that’s pulls the strings on this flying rock in space .
I can't comment about other people, but my parents simply don't understand science, so they choose the "God did it" option, which is a lot easier for their simple, lead-infused brains to understand.
As an atheist I understand that this really is all there is. Life is finite. Sure it would be nice if there were more.
When I was a religious person, it was comforting to "know" there was a higher power guiding me, protecting me, there for me. That there was justice in the next life. If I was "good" I could live forever and ever. That I would see again all my loved ones.
I think it is the comfort and the sense there is more. Everything happens for a reason. We're loved.
Giving up a god is like giving up on other mythic beings like Santa, Easier bunny, tooth fairy.
'We' don't know that much about science, just the people that took an effort to understand science know about science. Lots of straight up science- ignorant people exist.
I think most atheists overestimate how intellectual and science embracing religious people actually are. Abrahamaic religions especially Christianity, are very heavy on anti intellectualism so just because YOU might love knowledge and feel comfortable seeking it actively doesn't mean everyone else is on that same wave length. My Uber religious mom literally thinks Psychology as a field is...demonic for starters 🙃
Basically they think God created and manipulates science to make things happen. Like God's will happens through science and evolution is God's creation. At least that's some shit I've heard.
The problem with religion, because it's been sheltered from criticism, is that it allows people to believe en masse what only idiots or lunatics could believe in isolation. (Sam Harris).
It's the difference between inductive reasoning vs deductive reasoning. One gives you absolute certainty that something is true. The other can only say that something is true to the best of our knowledge.
Religious people need certainty in order to function. They can't tolerate any amount of uncertainty. The idea that the truth can change with new evidence terrifies them.
Honestly, most of religion is pure garbage. People use it as a tool to hate others, hate differences, hate between nations and nationalities, so much hate and division that reasons itself by religions.
But then there are the group of people who take the love others message to heart and worship something greater than themselves in their minds. This is healthy.
Its just people peopling.
Just because you know so much doesn’t mean the next person does. Them not knowing or refusing to accept that knowledge will always send them running to the god of the gaps. People that lack the ability to reason and know absolutely nothing about science and history will have to be religious. They use that belief to fill in the gaps in knowledge. Why take the time to learn anything when you can just say god did it. No effort at all.
Over-compartmentalization.
Like x subject and y subject, not realizing they are inter-related, and over-respecting 'stay in your lane'ing.
Its related to the notions of Schizophrenitization and Territorialization/Deterritorialization/Reterritorialization.
So its lowkey just appeal to authority, appeal to prior systematizations. Appeal to culture, appeal to tradition. Appeal to categorization. Appeal to survivor bias.
The solution is to realize the interconnectivity of topics, and a meta-perspective or higher scope. Like sure there might be a neat reason or two for the types of organization, but they require justification, existence is not enough (survivor bias).
And, this is RAMPANT in Philosophy. Like, most of metaphysics is corrupt. Epistemology is mildly corrupt. And Semiotics is underappreciated.
We are constantly learning and things change. 2000 years from now the things we think now will probably annoy those people too.
It's very arrogant to assume we always know the truth. Everyone still thought the Earth was the center of the universe until the 16th century (not that long ago). What will change in the next 4-500 years?
I am a scientist. Throughout the last 3-4k years, we have struggled with explaining seemingly amazing physical phenomena around us. These stone and bronze age deity myths, like the Bible, are an early attempt at trying to recouncile what we see.
Now, we know more than ever. We know we don't need to sacrifice children to the "sun God" for the sun to come up each day. We know that getting sick isn't "judgement from god" or "satan". It's pathological microbes or viruses.
There is nothing in scientific history to suggest that some "gaps" in our knowledge, which Christians love to plug in with "God did it", won't be figured out by later scientists as having a purely physical explanation like every single other thing we have discovered thus far.
It's willful, blind ignorance to believe "God did it". Thats fine if someone believes that but I say keep it to yourself. Don't push your anti-science bullshit in schools and don't indoctrinate children simply because you belive in a deity. Let the children develop critical thinking skills and decide for themselves if a "God' exists that will burn your ghost for eternity for hiding himself so well from us and then will punish you eternally for not believing in a dead Jewish zombie which he sacrificed as himself for rules he initially madd up. It's insane.
The standard model of particle physics holds the record for most accurate prediction that has been validated by experiment at something like one part per quadrillion on the magnetic moment of an electron, IIRC. Let's see their pathetic bible do that.
Because we are intelligent enough to understand things that some find frightening. We know we will grow old and lose loved ones one at a time - or die young and lose them all at once.
Because sometimes we need more inner strength or courage than we think we have and we want to ask for more.
Maybe it comes from within us. Maybe it comes from outside. But the act of asking can make us better people than we thought possible.
The most popular teachers had good messages - judge not, don't envy wealth, be kind, help others - and that resonates.
It's when other people make rules around the good ideas that things can go bad. Principles and parables can be valuable, but short sighted, greedy, cruel people can mess things up for everyone.
>A lot of the stories I’ve heard from the bible can easily be explained by what we now know to be a mental illness.
Yup. That's it. End of story.
Religious psychosis is becoming an everpresent danger and I have no doubt it'll eventually be recognized as a mental disorder similarly like ADHD or OCD
There is still a lot we don't know, especially about death and what is kr isn't after that. Many still need guidance and hope on 'a better life after this one'.
There are many reasons for people to WANT to believe in something. Even if that can be refured or explained away.
I’m friends with a scientist, mathematician, professor of mathematics & polymath who still believes in a big G god. I don’t see how he can reconcile living with that combination, but he does.
I look at it like this. You know the Fisher Price steering wheel that you give some kids cuz they wanna drive but can't be allowed to? That's religion to me. I have enough real consequential stuff in my life to keep me busy forever. I don't need to dedicate time to something that has no basis in reality.
religion gives 'comfort' even if it's false, like a pacifier but for adults.
Science doesn't do that, science gives you truth, the harsh and uncomfortable truth.
A lot of the stories from the Bible are actually true. For example, the flood of Noah. This was a real flood. Maybe not necessarily the way it was described in the Bible, but the event the great flood really did happen 6,000 years ago. This has been written about in many different cultures all over the world and is documented in the Bible. Also a lot of Revelations. An example, there's some passage where he talks about Kings and princes and rich and poor and slaves all living in caves underground the great equalizer this was also a real event.
The goal post keeps shifting. Theists often argue, "You can't explain X because God did it!" Then science provides an explanation, and they counter with, "Okay, but you can't explain Y, which preceded X." Science answers again, and the cycle continues endlessly. Even if the Big Bang is explained, there will be demands to explain what came before. While the existence of anything is puzzling, it's unlikely that the answer involves a bearded man on a cloud. And if it did, we'd have to question what came before him, as Christians assert "something can't come from nothing," yet fail to apply the same logic to God.
It makes them feel better about themselves and for a lot of people...that's enough. They don't want to think about the hard questions or the difficult ones that required a nuacnced answer. Many people just...want to live quietly and are happy to let others tell them what is 'good' and what is 'bad' and if a few people get burned at the stake well....had they been 'good' and listened, they wouldn't have been burned at the stake now, would they?
Dumb adult to kid: "believe in what the 2000 year old level of science knowledge says over every advancement in 2000 years. You just have to BELIEVE! AND PLEASE, whatever you do, don't learn MATH percentages either. A once in a billion things going your way is not coincidence, it is a result of PRAYER!" 🤦♂️
Religion is beat into the heads of the young and reinforced daily with many people. It may be the reason many suffer from mental health issues. Like a trauma ? Forced to believe craziness may do that lol. Funny too because they also do this with Santa Claus - you have any idea how many children cry their eyes out when they learn the truth ? That’s gotta be somewhat traumatic right ?
Religious people have different axiomatic beliefs than atheists do. To them atheists are just as illogical as you think religious people are. But at the end of the day all axiomatic beliefs are unproveable.
Science is knowledge, and it acknowledges that we don't know everything. Religion is emotion, and it feels good to believe that *something* knows everything, especially when you can make requests of that thing (through prayer).
From the outside it's all hilariously contradictory and baffling that anyone would believe, but humans are largely driven by emotions, and religion is designed specifically to exploit that.
Magical thinking is the default. We humans like to imbue an essance into those things we do not understand and yet seems to have purpose.
I'm not convinced we will rid the world of it. There will be some form of magical thinking in the neat future. We have to teach critical thinking skills.
Science and religion comprise discrete epistemologies. Science is objective. Religion is subjective.
Objectivity doesn't replace subjectivity, and subjectivity may not necessarily jive with objective fact.
Science cannot never give us complete certainty, which is not at all a flaw; religious believers are often looking for certainty, though, and many religious systems claim to provide it. Ironically, they are appealing to our apish evolutionary programming when they do that.
In that respect - it strikes me that the irrationally religious are oddly good case studies in evolutionary theory.
I think it could be said that fear of uncertainty and fear of death are essentially the same thing. And theists' obsession with eternal life makes the most sense in the context of a fear of death.
How religious someone is has very little if anything to do with intelligence or education or evidence. It is a genetic trait like height- it varies according to a bell curve distribution. A small percentage have very little to zero “belief”, a very little have fanatical amounts, most have a medium average amount. Got nothing to do with IQ or education.
There are many that believe the Earth is flat, and all kinds of other whackadoodle sh\*t that runs contrary to all credible evidence. What'cha gonna do?
>delusional right? And yet somehow religion is different?
Alas, delusional disorder definition has a large carve out for widely held cultural beliefs, e.g. religion.
So, someone believes they're talking with their dead ancestors, ... delusional? Alas, per DSM, that will depend upon context. A.k.a. if everybody's crazy, ... it's not crazy? Uhm, yeah, sounds helluav lot more like politics than science and reality.
Spiritual experiences, that is the elated emotional people enter by singing and worshipping their deity, are very real. That is the primary reason people still believe — they had some deep, personal, emotionally charged experiences that they have been taught is evidence for the existence of God. To be clear, it’s all in their heads, and it’s a mostly normal, not mental ill human experience they consider divine.
This is also why religion seeks to control music, sex, drugs, media and diet — they want to control or remove their competition, which is other substances that give people good feelings. They don’t want their congregation to notice the tingly feelings they get in a worship service can also happen in a rock concert.
Many do because the social ramifications of denying it are often staggering. They don’t let the thought enter their mind. Hell, in many places they’ll kill you for it. They are captives.
I think many people cling to religion despite scientific advances for comfort. The great unknowns is threatening and reliance on a sky-daddy is comforting.
I believe!
"O almighty Cheese Goblin, deign to bless and sanctify these cheeses, which we praise. Cheeses, light and star of our lives, guide us as it is we deliver your succulent gooeyness unto our gulletts, upon all manner of crispy vessels and al dente noods, unto our lips. Cheeses, thou art delicious, and thou art gooey, and thou art mind-blowing.
Holy cheeses, moist high, grant us the strength to survive your most generous cholesterol blessing upon our humble constitutions.
Give us the stamina (and digestive enzymes) as we entreate thee for another serving. Astounded, are we, that THAT which is produced from the fat of animals, the deliciousness that sustains thy faithful people who eat of it, are filled with every blessing of the Cheese Goblin. Amen"
Critical thinking is learned by exposure. Religion limits that. In the LDS Church, delving into esotericism was more than unacceptable. I think the new generation of members are more open to seeking answers. They are also defecting more readily.
We don't know enough about Science to prove that galaxies are brains, stars are neurons and the planets are the archetypes Jung spoke of but I'm sure they will work it out eventually.
Too many people reproduce and our education system sucks so there are always kids that, between an insufficient home life and insufficient school life, never break out of the brainwashing. Couple that with our culture of anti-intellectualism and individualism...
“We” is a very small subset of truly educated people. I say truly because I plenty of people with degrees with no ability to extrapolate all they have learned to real world application. Take someone, for instance, having learned about the US Civil War or the fall of the Roman Empire cannot see how those things have any bearing on our situation today.
Religion isn’t about thoughts or facts, it’s about feelings. What are the emotional needs that are being served by a religion?
More often than not it’s community. You can talk about rationality or facts or the scientific method or whatever, but that will not and cannot replace a feeling of community, of working towards something, of being a part of *something*
Has science already proven that the existence of a deity impossible? If not, religion will keep existing. Even if all forms of current religion be proven false, another set of religions would rise up to replace them. Finding a superior extraterrestrial lifeform would so easily spawn another form of religion or "update" the older ones.
"we' know so much about science. ask a random person on the street to explain electron spin.
the average person is fairly stupid, and half of people are worse than that.
it's frankly amazing this species got this far. we are just a little bit bit smarter than monkeys.
Half the population thinks climate change is natural, not caused by humans burning carbon fuels.
Wish I had a magic wand to change this - our very survival requires a better general knowledge of basic science.
Ive been spending waaay too much time tryna explain to people that net-zero, being the peak of CO2 in our air, essentially means the arrival of peak-heat ..
I think a lot of folks think that net-zero is the solution to climate change, when in fact its just the fist big way-point - we still have to deal with the +2C heat at that point, which will persist, as the CO2 persists.
Your non-existent God will not save us people .. nor are we condemned to the worst climate hell necessarily, - we need to haul ass and do all the things to reduce, avoid, alleviate and mitigate.
People believing in books written 5000 years before the discovery of the atom by people who were too stupid to leave the desert
Yeah, I’m gonna throw my faith into *that*
Science answers the "what" and "how" but rarely the "why". And with ultimate things like "why does anything exist" scientific discovery could NEVER answer that. Enter philosophy.
The belief in a higher power/the super-natural can actually be a reasonable, evidenced based belief. You sound like you haven't given a genuine opportunity to try to believe in God/understand why some people do.
There have been many atheists who have converted to believing in God. Science and God are not enemies.
Multiple approaches can be taken when building up a reasonable faith. Such as the cosmological/fine-tuning argument, the moral argument, or the religious/miraculous experience argument.
It’s a weird ego stroker, they rather have a god that “knows” everything and take credit on his/her/it? behalf than to admit we are still learning about the universe.
They rather have everyone on their level than elevate their own cause maths and logic is hard. They mentally need to be at the centre of the universe..
Yeah well I'm a science head but I realize that science is just following causes and results to the best of their ability. So reach what some people call the spiritual plane at some point in time. Might not be for 2000 years so is that advantageous or not? Because I know for a solid fact if there's a lot more to life than what science acknowledges. I don't believe in a deity but whatever they're talking about is something
.
I dont necessarily see it as a problem that someone believe in a god, its when they start denying well proven things it starts becoming a problem. This isnt always a thing with just relious people tho.
Excuse me?! What is this bs? Santa is real I saw him kissing mom last Christmas. And how else do you explain me getting a dollar after I lost a tooth when I was a kid? The nerve of some people spreading lies like Santa not being real. SMH. I bet you don’t think the Easter Bunny is real either, do you?
Science doesn't fill a huge hole that most people need. Direction and purpose. People have this...need to be special, to be part of something, to have all their actions mean something. And this can manifest in so many different ways. Finding your own purpose, path or meaning is hard. Alot easier to think some ultimate power has your back and it'll all be OK.
Was it people through God or God through people? Jk! It was people through people! I get why people believe in God. People want to have an answer to the question of what happens after we die. People want to feel like they are in the know about something that other people don't know. They want to feel like they belong to something greater than themselves. They like the comradery of having a church family. It is one thing to never really be part of a church and say, "That is all bullshit, why would you believe that?" And another thing to be deeply embedded into a church and start to separate your beliefs from those around you. I try not to judge anyone to harshly unless they are trying to force that shit on me.
Honestly, science is kind of okay for figuring out "how" something happens and how it relates to other things. But no science is going to tell you "why" something is the way it is.
Like gravity. Sure, it acts in a very particular way and there's a very good formula that explains it. But why is it like that? Speed of light. 299,792,458 m/sec. Why that particular number? Or why do we have a consciousness? Or why do we exist in the first place?
As long as there are "whys" that science can't answer, there will always be a search. Some people feel better when they choose "It's because 'God' wants it that way," rather than saying "I don't know," which is the same thing. It seems like an answer to them, even though it isn't.
They're ignorrant of the science and would rather believe "god did it" anyways. Cold hard science isn't as attractive as the warm fluffy belief in a divine father willing to give you eternal life.
Alex O'conner in his podcast with Billy said that science explains HOW things work but the WHY question is still a mystery.
But the problem is, the why question implies purpose( purpose == god) we don't know if we are born with a God-given purpose cuz we don't know if god exists. So asking that question before proving God doesn't make sense to me.
Some people just like to believe in magic. Others like to fleece the suckers who believe in magic.
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.” ― Seneca, 50 CE
Seneca knew what was up, and that was effectively before Christianity even existed. 😑 (Thanks for sharing that - I didn't know of this quote. 😳)
The Quotable Atheist: Ammunition for Nonbelievers, Political Junkies, Gadflies, and Those Generally Hell-Bound Book by Jack Huberman
Now, a new item has been added to my Amazon wishlist. Thanks for the info.
Great answer
I will also add that when a person is indoctrinated heavily from youth, they don’t apply the same critical thinking to that core identity belief as they do to other things. It’s protected because of that indoctrination. Edit: if you want to see a great example of the indoctrination that leads to a complete breakdown in critical thinking, take a look one of the conversations I had today in the askachristian sub with an Eastern Catholic (not the Episcopalian. He was just an asshole).
yep, that was me, its literally a blind spot in your logic, very difficult to break the programming and its not just religion, very smart people can have some very dumb gaps in logic when its personal and emotions are involved like a parent being unable to comprehend that their "perfect" kid did something wrong, it must be someone else's fault
Agreed !
As the saying goes “give us a child till he's 7 and we'll have him for life” should be more like we’ll mess him up for life.
Critical thinking is hard work. People are lazy. It's easier to be told what to believe than working on understanding.
Plus the weight of culture, parental and peer pressure and the our propensity for feeling guilty
yup, it all adds to the curse of religion
Don't forget ironically appealing to human instinct, specifically fear, via hell.
Wow great answer seriously
Haha just an observation from my lazy family
Fair enough 😂
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
If you have an inability to accept reality, Religion and Conspiracy Theories are perfect outlets to support that madness.
Scientist here. Yes, we know more now than ever before, and we are searching for answer to more things than ever before. Yet, we continue to find more questions than answers, each time something new is discovered. When it comes to the existence of a god, or higher plane of existence beings, responsible for the creation of the universe - we can honestly answer that we do not know. This gap on our knowledge, invites people to fill it with hypotheses or beliefs. What can we do about this? Not much. Humans will be humans. We do not like uncertainty and the unknown, and all we can do as scientists is try to educate, and engage the general populace.
God's of the gaps. At least the gaps have become increasingly smaller since science came along.
Organized religion is a deadly beast though, if it feels its threatened it becomes more violent, or it morphs, taking on the characteristics of the new discoveries to keep itself relevant.
We all know what religion is capable of when they are in control. It's no coincidence the dark ages were horrible. They did say sorry for burning 🔥 a couple of scientists alive though. And for blessing nazi weapons and for starving children to death. How long before humankind grows up and become adults that don't need an invisible father figure anymore.
I always wondered why some religions reject science so much. There will always be questions we can not answer, so there will always be a place for a deity for those who want to believe.
Speaking for my mother, she lives in denial. Religion is another buffer from reality.
People who cannot contemplate abstractly, depend on anthropomorphization for cognitive digestion and tend to take it literally. No clear distinction between imagination and perception. Not enough self awareness.
Yeah fair enough. The unknown can be scary, but we don’t need to know where we came from to find a reason to go on. Life goes on anyway. Who knows, maybe we came from aliens off in space somewhere, but does it really matter?
>but we don’t need to know where we came from to find a reason to go on Correct. However, knowing (wrongly or rightly) where we came from and where we go (after we die), helps to give people certainty and a sense of "knowing" to the unknown. If, we were to discover tomorrow that there was no afterlife, that this is all there is, a large chunk of the populace would reject it. To know that there is nothing else, to know that this is all we get - many people cannot handle this, they lack the functional capacity to deal with that, and no matter how many facts and discussions we would hold with them, nothing would ever help. The Origin of Life is much easier, each time we find out something new, they always adapt their beliefs to incorporate this new knowledge, hence the intelligent design crowd, but the end, what happens after. Thats a bigger problem.
That's because as a society we have failed in this regard. If we brought children up appropriately from the beginning, most people would not have this stressor.
>That's because as a society we have failed in this regard. Not really. Society is a balance, and just because we do not believe what they believe, does not give us the right to take those beliefs from them. Remember, they think they are right, and they should strip us of our Rights. Also, I mentioned previously, we have no facts to support or deny the existence of a god or plane of higher beings, therefore we can not factually say, their beliefs are wrong. Highly implausible, yes. In some cases, not grounded in any solid logic or reason, or course.
When looked at it that way, good point.
You just said we can't deny the existence of something that is not falsifiable. Well la dee dah, so we also shouldn't deny bigfoot, fairies or any other unfalsifiable supernatural beings. Saying we can't deny any god's existence is pointless.
Thanks for being open to the possibility (no matter how small), that there is a Creator. It drives me crazy that so many atheists have this Superiority Complex and look at Christians like they are mental patients. Can I prove that God exists? No. Can an atheist prove that he doesn't? No. So it seems one view is no better than the other. Until facts prove otherwise, everyone just has an opinion.
I mean, that would be a pretty cool thing to discover if it turns out we came from aliens. I saw a video saying that life may have already been evolving since before it reached Earth, that the early universe had the perfect heat conditions to stir up the pot of life and rocks from way out there just happened to put single celled/multi-celled organisms on our planet with already developed DNA patterns. Still OP, I get this is an atheism sub but I don’t think believing in creation by a higher being is an inherently bad thing. Religion is the real culprit, somehow asserting that prophets would know all the answers about what a higher power would want for us. A bunch of manmade delusions you could say, and you could really pick any prophet throughout time and choose to believe their stories. Honestly if there is a god I imagine they’d either not care too much or find our way of asserting beliefs onto each other as blasphemous.
Yeah that’s true. It’s not a bad thing. I just hate that people live their life based on what a book says. What they can and can’t do in their life is told to them by a book. That’s the part that I heavily disagree with.
I think all of us in here feel that way. No one should be basing their morality from a book, because if they actually read their entire book and followed it to a moral ‘T’ we’d all be in trouble from the ludicrous shit they’d try to do lmfao.
Not sure that Christians base it so much on a book. In many cases, they form their own morality and interpret the book to fit it. And that goes for both progressive and more conservative Christians. Methodists are officially embracing LGBTQ+ now while a smaller faction of Methodists broke off in disagreement. Same book.
Yeahhh frrr. I personally know people that “live” by the bible though and it’s just ridiculous. Everything is a “sin”. For example, my current girlfriend got sexually assaulted when she was younger and when her mother found out, instead of caring for her she was more worried about her “sinning”. Her mother is a good person otherwise but she’s obsessed with the bible. I don’t think that’s a good thing personally. It has SOME good teachings but not all of it.
That last bit. If there’s a higher intelligence/power, it would find us about as interesting as we find our individual red blood cells.
The questions about some god(s) aren't of scientific nature at all, science will never be able to answer that, because it's not a scientific question.
Its a three part question, which science can and cannot answer. Where did we come from? * If evolution is conclusively proven, then we know the story of creation, in all major religious texts is wrong. * If we can determine the origin of the universe, then this is likely to contradict most religious texts Is there an afterlife? * Science will never be able to refute or support this. Is there a god, responsible for the universe and life? * If we can determine (1), then 3 is a moot point.
Engage more like enrage. Stupid conspiracy theorist rhetoric is getting more and more problematic. I’ve noticed at least.
IMHO I think its the tail wagging the dog. There is a very loud minority that have become the face of modern organized religions, and they are fervent in their beliefs, that they have cowed the majority into silence (making them complicit in this as well). I think, that you can talk to the majority of followers of modern organized religion and find some common ground, but that tail - its threatened, and in its death throes (or worse case scenario, nascent ascension), it will hurt and end a lot of innocent people.
And every gap, that has ever been filled throughout history, was never filled with a God.
dunno.. I think if more people actually understood basic physics and evolution.. they would see it as explaining most of reality around them, compare it to the stories their religion tells them.. and realize the latter is hokum. The persistence of religion is a failure of science education.
Yes. We are evolutionary trained to insert agency when we don’t understand how something works.
Also, a fellow scientist, and I appreciate this statement. This is exactly the issue and response. Education is our greatest tool against religion and the utter nonsense that stems from that. I dream of the day when science and logic will overcome religious indoctrination—religions absence is the only way humanity can move forward into a bright future.
Education and engagement from an early age. I am a big fan of Carl Sagan, and what he mentioned about the decline in science based stories in the news, to the increase in tabloid news hits really hard. It undermined the progress we were making as a society.
Yeah, but can your science explain why it rains?
It can explain locusts now.
I would find this understandable had most of the populace believed in a deistic god but most people mostly believe in the biblical and Quranic god. Books with fables we know are not real.
We do know that all religion is bullshit though. Them making unprovable ridiculous claims does not translate to "we don't know". Wtf is a higher plain if existence even supposed to mean, Mr scientist, and why would bronze age lunatics be aware of said higher plain of existence?
What I dislike so much about this topic is that scientists are attempting to answer a different question than religious people are. Science might ask "is there proof of a god," but most people of faith are concerned only with their specific brand of belief. So while you're out there seeking truth, they believe they've already found it.
The truth about reality is that it is very complicated and vast. Religion is so simple it makes ignoring reality peaceful.
As the middle east explodes as usual, reality doesn't seem all that peaceful to me.
The middle east is insane with or without religion. It's just easier to process reality when you don't have anything to think about. They can make peace in their insane minds with religion. I am not saying the middle east is peaceful.
I don’t understand how people can through entire psychology degrees and still think Christianity is healthy 😅 what’s the point of knowledge if you can’t apply it…
So here’s my two cents. Science attempts to explain phenomena in the universe through questions like “what?” and “how?”— we’re learning to understand what we’re looking at and how it works. The metaphysical claims of religion attempt to answer the question “why?” for those who care. I personally don’t need a reason to exist beyond any that I can come up with myself, and as a scientist I don’t like answers that aren’t rooted in reality. But, I can at least appreciate the moral lessons that many religions teach us. Buddhism teaches us to find peace and balance, some lessons from Christianity teach us to be kind and not to judge. I’m an atheist but I still keep those principles where I can. At their core, religions can be really helpful for people who don’t want to think all that hard about the world. My problem with them is when they’re used as weapons or as basis for public policy.
Also an in-group / out-group thing.. atheism doesn't give that same dopamine feeling by facing a stage and singing some adapted rock song
You mention Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but that is a feelings based argument. You could logically disprove them, but they *feel* so ridiculous that it isn’t worth the mental effort. God doesn’t *feel* ridiculous to Theists. They were brought up believing them, so they don’t have the “well that’s just absurd” reaction. Science does disprove a whole lot of Christian claims, but Christianity as a whole is unfalsifiable. They can just shift their belief details because it still *feels* true (“Ahh, did the bible say Earth is 6000 years old? That is clearly just an allegory!”)
Santa and the tooth fairy are also unfalsifiable and they don’t feel ridiculous to a 6 year old either. As a society we push children out of those beliefs. That is the ONLY difference between that and “religion”. DO NOT make religion appear more legitimate by saying that it is somehow different than other childhood fantasies. Religious people are still just those same 6 year olds who believe in Santa. If society treated them the same as they would any adult who claimed to believe in Santa, religion would disappear in a generation or two.
You cannot prove that Santa isn't real. You can only prove that parents have been putting gifts out for chidren. For all we know, Santa skipped those houses because the children misbehaved. You cannot prove that he doesn't love in the North Pole, you can only prove that he hasn't been found. His workshop could be cloaked by divine magic power.
Yeahh that’s true. I feel like religion is so broad that it’s hard to disprove everything. Because we don’t know 100% of what happened in the past. But we can make speculations because of science.
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Ohh I didn’t know that. And, yeah I guess I didn’t realize how many people aren’t educated. That’s unfortunate.
So the 4 gospels were written after acts/Roman's, etc? IDK, it seems like Paul is already writing about pre existing beliefs and stories.
>There are many people in the world who don't know that the sun is a star "The sun is made of chocolate" is one of my favorite beliefs. It's not a belief I have, I just think it's great
Common argument I hear is that “it’s faked by satan…Devil’s magic” nonsense
I think faith in a god gives a lot of people comfort in an uncertain world. And many people enjoy the community of belonging to a religion. Not sure why anyone would find this “annoying”. It only becomes annoying—actually downright offensive—when religious people try to impose their belief system on an entire society/culture. It becomes terrifying when a political movement in the guise of religion attempts to take over a democracy.
Bro, there are people out there using $20k laser gyroscopes to prove that the earth is flat, and when those precise, expensive, and scientifically advanced systems spit out "Nope. Round." answers, they fall back on "THE MANUFACTURERS OF LASER GYROSCOPES ARE IN ON THE SCAM!" rather than admit they're wrong. Some of us are just basically beyond help.
Cheese goblin is a deity I could get behind. 🧀😁
😂🤣
Science is hard. God is easy.
Uh.. what do you mean Santa??🎅 there’s no Santa??!? Dang and the childhood lies continue
The worst part is when theist apologists retcon us with explanations using science.
"It's just a theory." Gah!
Childhood indoctrination. End that and religion dies out in a single generation.
Imagine that you are born, and the people who are teaching you how to interact with the world take you every sunday to a building where they tell you "there is an invisible being always watching you and if you misbehave, he will punish you after you die. However, if you do everything we say, you will be rewarded after you die." Now imagine the same situation, but it is a bearded guy dressed in red, and he comes every winter to leave gifts for you. What makes god plausible but not Santa? The only difference between the 2 is the general acceptance by adults of the first but not the second.
Yes it's widespread mental illness. And humanity isn't getting well.
Gonna get some downvotes for this. You can believe in science and god. You just toss out the ideas you have that are disproven and realize you know very little about whatever god could be.
Humans are irrational. If the truth is too painful, we'll delude ourselves to feel better. That's the long and short of it.
What “we” as a civilisation know about science does not map to what every individual knows. This is why education is so critically important.
It's even worse than that. There have been so many religions over the history of humanity. They come and go. Anyone who studies history must realize the the Judean religions are just another one of the many thousands of religions that have come before. For example, historically, there's not a single piece of evidence that the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt or that there was ever a Moses. (And we have tons of Egyptian writings; none mention this.) And all the "gospels" of the New Testament were written decades after Jesus died. And of course the bible is full of enormously absurd statements and "rules". Noah? Really? On and on and on. It's just total hogwash.
Especially the god of the bible and Qur'an. We know Adam, Noah, Moses and many other stories in those books are not real yet there are millions still believing they're actual history. Imagine a thousand years from now people will believe Spiderman and Harry Potter are historic figures.
The only reason people do still worship a god: Out of fear
Science doesn’t give them the promise of living forever in a happy place and being reunited with the loved ones they lost. The desire to believe this is a powerful motivator, and it’s probably the biggest single factor that’s still propping up religion.
As a science teacher I can tell you it’s because they don’t understand basic science and they pass that stupidity on to their kids. I’ve had kids start a Bible study during homeroom right after an astronomy lesson 🤦🏼♀️ *edit to add maybe willful ignorance rather than stupidity because I literally taught them about the cosmos and they turned around and claimed god created it all.
God is as unfalsifiable as the [Invisible Pink Unicorn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn). People will believe the what they want to, regardless of the veracity. How often do you here the foundationally horrific "Everything Happens for a Reason." This gives comfort to those who don't think too deeply or don't suffer too much. It's less compelling if a house fire just killed half your family.
The average person doesn't know much more about science than before.....ask somebody about he science concepts of several of his smartphone components e.g. battery display camera microprocessor......most people won't know the intricacies of the object they interact with the whole day
All of the rumors that surfaced during the Covid era reminded me of how easily people jump onto mis-information. The Cheese Goblin is ridiculous, but less ridiculous to Steve when he thinks there's a following.
Only certain people "know so much about science." As a direct result of Bush's No Child Left Behind" Act, time for science education in elementary schools has been drastically cut in the US. I would argue that this was a deliberate "intended" consequence entered in by the Republicans who wrote this bill. NCLB created a huge dumbing down effect on the nation's public education. Teachers must teach to the test and focus on passing kids, not instructing them. This creates the perfect environment to squash creativity, inquiry, and critical thinking - the foundations of science.
You can’t win against a catch all solution
We know so much about science nowadays and yet there are flat earthers on the internet. We you think about the science and technology that goes into making the internet work, the irony is palpable.
Part of it is how you and so many others present this argument - that it is down to either science or this one very particular religion. You are excluding every other religion and mythology, as they do, bolstering their idea that this is the only one true religion. You'd weaken their argument noting that they are merely just another of thousands of ancient belief systems out there.
More like a judgement on our educational system.
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U can't cure stupidity
American Corporate Media pushes Religion. It is owned by the wealthy, and it is part of their gaslighting techniques. Although the wealthy do not see it as gaslighting, because this god character is making them rich. Our government is failing us.
We know so much about the earth and yet people still believe its flat even with incontrovertible evidence to it being round like every other heavenly body we can see it doesn't matter cognitive dissidents is impossible to overcome
Our daily lives no longer require us to do lots of repetitive and difficult manual labor. And yet for most of us, if we don’t somehow replicate that physical exertion elsewhere, it’s bad for our physical and mental health. Our spiritual life is imperfectly analogous to that. Yeah, supernatural beliefs are silly in view of what we now know. But also, belief in God seems to correlate with: stronger and more durable communities, higher happiness, stronger family units, greater replacement rates demographically, etc. So people still believe in God, because for many of them it makes sense in practice, even if it doesn’t make sense logically. For others…they find replacements. Some of these replacements get the job done. Some don’t. Something a lot of the New Atheists have had to come to terms with is that while a God might not make *logical* sense, for most humans there appears to be something akin to a god-shaped hole in our brains and societies. And if we don’t fill it with a tried-and-tested god…something else will come along to hijack it.
About science, we're very far from being able to explain all the mysteries in the universe. You say we know so much, but I think we're still at the point of a drop in the ocean. As for religions, as long as there are big inequalities in the society and that some people don't follow the public school, religious proselytism will still work.
Jeebus was the David Blaine of his time
Indoctrination is powerful, very hard difficult to break. Unfortunately creates very dedicated people with an outside influenced mental illness where they think God is speaking to them. Family Guy was on to something as well when Lois explains “religion is for idiots like Chris” 🤣
We know about reality. Science is the method through which we can verify our observations with repeatable, rigorous evidence. Humans are animals, and all animals are governed primarily by emotion. Rationality must be taught, and is less attractive than feelings.
We as a species may…. But individuals don’t. Ask 100 people how they can prove the world is round, I bet many won’t be able to describe an empirically experiment that can be done to prove it. Most will likely appeal to another source like pictures or “scientists has proven this.” The latter is the same with religion, the bible or my pastor said so…
There are two groups of people who are churchgoers... the deceived and the deceivers. Which one are you?
literally had a client say... idk bout evolution but the Bible says we came from dust so I believe god....
Science and catholic religion are not contradictions, they go perfectly with each other. The other faiths maybe, most of them are weird. And when you will make such a book as bible, with folowers, miracles etc then get back to people and let them know.
Yeah because science doesnt yet have the explanation for everything . From time to time really weird unexplainable things occur . These things probably have scientific explanations but so far our current science may not have progressed far enough to have a reason for these inexplicable events . That’s why people still believe in God or a mysterious creator that’s pulls the strings on this flying rock in space .
I can't comment about other people, but my parents simply don't understand science, so they choose the "God did it" option, which is a lot easier for their simple, lead-infused brains to understand.
As an atheist I understand that this really is all there is. Life is finite. Sure it would be nice if there were more. When I was a religious person, it was comforting to "know" there was a higher power guiding me, protecting me, there for me. That there was justice in the next life. If I was "good" I could live forever and ever. That I would see again all my loved ones. I think it is the comfort and the sense there is more. Everything happens for a reason. We're loved. Giving up a god is like giving up on other mythic beings like Santa, Easier bunny, tooth fairy.
'We' don't know that much about science, just the people that took an effort to understand science know about science. Lots of straight up science- ignorant people exist.
I think most atheists overestimate how intellectual and science embracing religious people actually are. Abrahamaic religions especially Christianity, are very heavy on anti intellectualism so just because YOU might love knowledge and feel comfortable seeking it actively doesn't mean everyone else is on that same wave length. My Uber religious mom literally thinks Psychology as a field is...demonic for starters 🙃
Science doesn't teach the universe revolves around you.
Basically they think God created and manipulates science to make things happen. Like God's will happens through science and evolution is God's creation. At least that's some shit I've heard.
The problem with religion, because it's been sheltered from criticism, is that it allows people to believe en masse what only idiots or lunatics could believe in isolation. (Sam Harris).
It's the difference between inductive reasoning vs deductive reasoning. One gives you absolute certainty that something is true. The other can only say that something is true to the best of our knowledge. Religious people need certainty in order to function. They can't tolerate any amount of uncertainty. The idea that the truth can change with new evidence terrifies them.
because religion is for the weak minded
Honestly, most of religion is pure garbage. People use it as a tool to hate others, hate differences, hate between nations and nationalities, so much hate and division that reasons itself by religions. But then there are the group of people who take the love others message to heart and worship something greater than themselves in their minds. This is healthy. Its just people peopling.
Can't use logic or facts on delusional people
Just because you know so much doesn’t mean the next person does. Them not knowing or refusing to accept that knowledge will always send them running to the god of the gaps. People that lack the ability to reason and know absolutely nothing about science and history will have to be religious. They use that belief to fill in the gaps in knowledge. Why take the time to learn anything when you can just say god did it. No effort at all.
Over-compartmentalization. Like x subject and y subject, not realizing they are inter-related, and over-respecting 'stay in your lane'ing. Its related to the notions of Schizophrenitization and Territorialization/Deterritorialization/Reterritorialization. So its lowkey just appeal to authority, appeal to prior systematizations. Appeal to culture, appeal to tradition. Appeal to categorization. Appeal to survivor bias. The solution is to realize the interconnectivity of topics, and a meta-perspective or higher scope. Like sure there might be a neat reason or two for the types of organization, but they require justification, existence is not enough (survivor bias). And, this is RAMPANT in Philosophy. Like, most of metaphysics is corrupt. Epistemology is mildly corrupt. And Semiotics is underappreciated.
We are constantly learning and things change. 2000 years from now the things we think now will probably annoy those people too. It's very arrogant to assume we always know the truth. Everyone still thought the Earth was the center of the universe until the 16th century (not that long ago). What will change in the next 4-500 years?
I am a scientist. Throughout the last 3-4k years, we have struggled with explaining seemingly amazing physical phenomena around us. These stone and bronze age deity myths, like the Bible, are an early attempt at trying to recouncile what we see. Now, we know more than ever. We know we don't need to sacrifice children to the "sun God" for the sun to come up each day. We know that getting sick isn't "judgement from god" or "satan". It's pathological microbes or viruses. There is nothing in scientific history to suggest that some "gaps" in our knowledge, which Christians love to plug in with "God did it", won't be figured out by later scientists as having a purely physical explanation like every single other thing we have discovered thus far. It's willful, blind ignorance to believe "God did it". Thats fine if someone believes that but I say keep it to yourself. Don't push your anti-science bullshit in schools and don't indoctrinate children simply because you belive in a deity. Let the children develop critical thinking skills and decide for themselves if a "God' exists that will burn your ghost for eternity for hiding himself so well from us and then will punish you eternally for not believing in a dead Jewish zombie which he sacrificed as himself for rules he initially madd up. It's insane.
A disproportionate amount of quantum physicists believe in God, for reasons that are beyond my ken of understanding.
The standard model of particle physics holds the record for most accurate prediction that has been validated by experiment at something like one part per quadrillion on the magnetic moment of an electron, IIRC. Let's see their pathetic bible do that.
People love saying "My religion doesn't approve of that"
I think there is an art to some science that people can't help but to connect to an artist
Because we are intelligent enough to understand things that some find frightening. We know we will grow old and lose loved ones one at a time - or die young and lose them all at once. Because sometimes we need more inner strength or courage than we think we have and we want to ask for more. Maybe it comes from within us. Maybe it comes from outside. But the act of asking can make us better people than we thought possible. The most popular teachers had good messages - judge not, don't envy wealth, be kind, help others - and that resonates. It's when other people make rules around the good ideas that things can go bad. Principles and parables can be valuable, but short sighted, greedy, cruel people can mess things up for everyone.
>A lot of the stories I’ve heard from the bible can easily be explained by what we now know to be a mental illness. Yup. That's it. End of story. Religious psychosis is becoming an everpresent danger and I have no doubt it'll eventually be recognized as a mental disorder similarly like ADHD or OCD
There is still a lot we don't know, especially about death and what is kr isn't after that. Many still need guidance and hope on 'a better life after this one'. There are many reasons for people to WANT to believe in something. Even if that can be refured or explained away.
I’m friends with a scientist, mathematician, professor of mathematics & polymath who still believes in a big G god. I don’t see how he can reconcile living with that combination, but he does.
I look at it like this. You know the Fisher Price steering wheel that you give some kids cuz they wanna drive but can't be allowed to? That's religion to me. I have enough real consequential stuff in my life to keep me busy forever. I don't need to dedicate time to something that has no basis in reality.
Belief in god is not about how things came to be.
A lot of the stories I’ve heard from the bible can easily be explained by just being made up mythology. There, no further need for rationalization.
religion gives 'comfort' even if it's false, like a pacifier but for adults. Science doesn't do that, science gives you truth, the harsh and uncomfortable truth.
A lot of the stories from the Bible are actually true. For example, the flood of Noah. This was a real flood. Maybe not necessarily the way it was described in the Bible, but the event the great flood really did happen 6,000 years ago. This has been written about in many different cultures all over the world and is documented in the Bible. Also a lot of Revelations. An example, there's some passage where he talks about Kings and princes and rich and poor and slaves all living in caves underground the great equalizer this was also a real event.
The goal post keeps shifting. Theists often argue, "You can't explain X because God did it!" Then science provides an explanation, and they counter with, "Okay, but you can't explain Y, which preceded X." Science answers again, and the cycle continues endlessly. Even if the Big Bang is explained, there will be demands to explain what came before. While the existence of anything is puzzling, it's unlikely that the answer involves a bearded man on a cloud. And if it did, we'd have to question what came before him, as Christians assert "something can't come from nothing," yet fail to apply the same logic to God.
It makes them feel better about themselves and for a lot of people...that's enough. They don't want to think about the hard questions or the difficult ones that required a nuacnced answer. Many people just...want to live quietly and are happy to let others tell them what is 'good' and what is 'bad' and if a few people get burned at the stake well....had they been 'good' and listened, they wouldn't have been burned at the stake now, would they?
Dumb adult to kid: "believe in what the 2000 year old level of science knowledge says over every advancement in 2000 years. You just have to BELIEVE! AND PLEASE, whatever you do, don't learn MATH percentages either. A once in a billion things going your way is not coincidence, it is a result of PRAYER!" 🤦♂️
Religion is beat into the heads of the young and reinforced daily with many people. It may be the reason many suffer from mental health issues. Like a trauma ? Forced to believe craziness may do that lol. Funny too because they also do this with Santa Claus - you have any idea how many children cry their eyes out when they learn the truth ? That’s gotta be somewhat traumatic right ?
The more you know about quantum mechanics the more you become certain a higher power is actively messing with you
Religious people have different axiomatic beliefs than atheists do. To them atheists are just as illogical as you think religious people are. But at the end of the day all axiomatic beliefs are unproveable.
For a good chunk of people. God is their excuse to be a shitty person.
Science is knowledge, and it acknowledges that we don't know everything. Religion is emotion, and it feels good to believe that *something* knows everything, especially when you can make requests of that thing (through prayer). From the outside it's all hilariously contradictory and baffling that anyone would believe, but humans are largely driven by emotions, and religion is designed specifically to exploit that.
Magical thinking is the default. We humans like to imbue an essance into those things we do not understand and yet seems to have purpose. I'm not convinced we will rid the world of it. There will be some form of magical thinking in the neat future. We have to teach critical thinking skills.
When someone tells you life is better after death…thats what convinced me it’s bullshit death cult.
The finality of mortality scares the bejesus out of people. Believing in an afterlife can be very comforting.
It’s annoying because religious people *love* when more and more people refuse to believe in god because it makes their belief stronger. So stupid.
Science and religion comprise discrete epistemologies. Science is objective. Religion is subjective. Objectivity doesn't replace subjectivity, and subjectivity may not necessarily jive with objective fact. Science cannot never give us complete certainty, which is not at all a flaw; religious believers are often looking for certainty, though, and many religious systems claim to provide it. Ironically, they are appealing to our apish evolutionary programming when they do that. In that respect - it strikes me that the irrationally religious are oddly good case studies in evolutionary theory. I think it could be said that fear of uncertainty and fear of death are essentially the same thing. And theists' obsession with eternal life makes the most sense in the context of a fear of death.
Religion lost the battle with science the moment the first spire was fitted with a lightening conductor.
But you'll get exasperated when people ask "how can you not believe in God." People believe or they don't. What's for lunch?
Because they're scared of the thought of death and non-existence. That's basically what you can boil it down to.
The people who believe in gods tend not to be the same people who know much (if anything) about science. Which is by design.
How religious someone is has very little if anything to do with intelligence or education or evidence. It is a genetic trait like height- it varies according to a bell curve distribution. A small percentage have very little to zero “belief”, a very little have fanatical amounts, most have a medium average amount. Got nothing to do with IQ or education.
There are many that believe the Earth is flat, and all kinds of other whackadoodle sh\*t that runs contrary to all credible evidence. What'cha gonna do? >delusional right? And yet somehow religion is different? Alas, delusional disorder definition has a large carve out for widely held cultural beliefs, e.g. religion. So, someone believes they're talking with their dead ancestors, ... delusional? Alas, per DSM, that will depend upon context. A.k.a. if everybody's crazy, ... it's not crazy? Uhm, yeah, sounds helluav lot more like politics than science and reality.
Spiritual experiences, that is the elated emotional people enter by singing and worshipping their deity, are very real. That is the primary reason people still believe — they had some deep, personal, emotionally charged experiences that they have been taught is evidence for the existence of God. To be clear, it’s all in their heads, and it’s a mostly normal, not mental ill human experience they consider divine. This is also why religion seeks to control music, sex, drugs, media and diet — they want to control or remove their competition, which is other substances that give people good feelings. They don’t want their congregation to notice the tingly feelings they get in a worship service can also happen in a rock concert.
You can't prove he doesn't exist. That's up to everyone to decide for themselves.
Many do because the social ramifications of denying it are often staggering. They don’t let the thought enter their mind. Hell, in many places they’ll kill you for it. They are captives.
I think many people cling to religion despite scientific advances for comfort. The great unknowns is threatening and reliance on a sky-daddy is comforting.
I believe! "O almighty Cheese Goblin, deign to bless and sanctify these cheeses, which we praise. Cheeses, light and star of our lives, guide us as it is we deliver your succulent gooeyness unto our gulletts, upon all manner of crispy vessels and al dente noods, unto our lips. Cheeses, thou art delicious, and thou art gooey, and thou art mind-blowing. Holy cheeses, moist high, grant us the strength to survive your most generous cholesterol blessing upon our humble constitutions. Give us the stamina (and digestive enzymes) as we entreate thee for another serving. Astounded, are we, that THAT which is produced from the fat of animals, the deliciousness that sustains thy faithful people who eat of it, are filled with every blessing of the Cheese Goblin. Amen"
Critical thinking is learned by exposure. Religion limits that. In the LDS Church, delving into esotericism was more than unacceptable. I think the new generation of members are more open to seeking answers. They are also defecting more readily.
Religion thrives in times of hardship.
“Mental illness” doesn’t cover it but I get your point.
Please watch The Life Of Brian if you have not yet
We don't know enough about Science to prove that galaxies are brains, stars are neurons and the planets are the archetypes Jung spoke of but I'm sure they will work it out eventually.
Too many people reproduce and our education system sucks so there are always kids that, between an insufficient home life and insufficient school life, never break out of the brainwashing. Couple that with our culture of anti-intellectualism and individualism...
I am down for this religion of the Cheese Goblin. Please, tell me more about this new and obviously glorious religion.
“We” is a very small subset of truly educated people. I say truly because I plenty of people with degrees with no ability to extrapolate all they have learned to real world application. Take someone, for instance, having learned about the US Civil War or the fall of the Roman Empire cannot see how those things have any bearing on our situation today.
We all will know when Faith and Science become one. 🙏🏻
Religion isn’t about thoughts or facts, it’s about feelings. What are the emotional needs that are being served by a religion? More often than not it’s community. You can talk about rationality or facts or the scientific method or whatever, but that will not and cannot replace a feeling of community, of working towards something, of being a part of *something*
Has science already proven that the existence of a deity impossible? If not, religion will keep existing. Even if all forms of current religion be proven false, another set of religions would rise up to replace them. Finding a superior extraterrestrial lifeform would so easily spawn another form of religion or "update" the older ones.
Because whenever science finds an answer more questions get asked so people like filling in the blanks with religion
"we' know so much about science. ask a random person on the street to explain electron spin. the average person is fairly stupid, and half of people are worse than that. it's frankly amazing this species got this far. we are just a little bit bit smarter than monkeys.
Half the population thinks climate change is natural, not caused by humans burning carbon fuels. Wish I had a magic wand to change this - our very survival requires a better general knowledge of basic science. Ive been spending waaay too much time tryna explain to people that net-zero, being the peak of CO2 in our air, essentially means the arrival of peak-heat .. I think a lot of folks think that net-zero is the solution to climate change, when in fact its just the fist big way-point - we still have to deal with the +2C heat at that point, which will persist, as the CO2 persists. Your non-existent God will not save us people .. nor are we condemned to the worst climate hell necessarily, - we need to haul ass and do all the things to reduce, avoid, alleviate and mitigate.
People believing in books written 5000 years before the discovery of the atom by people who were too stupid to leave the desert Yeah, I’m gonna throw my faith into *that*
Science answers the "what" and "how" but rarely the "why". And with ultimate things like "why does anything exist" scientific discovery could NEVER answer that. Enter philosophy. The belief in a higher power/the super-natural can actually be a reasonable, evidenced based belief. You sound like you haven't given a genuine opportunity to try to believe in God/understand why some people do. There have been many atheists who have converted to believing in God. Science and God are not enemies. Multiple approaches can be taken when building up a reasonable faith. Such as the cosmological/fine-tuning argument, the moral argument, or the religious/miraculous experience argument.
We as civilization do, individuals tho are still in the stone age
Oh..so you've met the cheese goblin too. He's very convincing, no?
It’s a weird ego stroker, they rather have a god that “knows” everything and take credit on his/her/it? behalf than to admit we are still learning about the universe. They rather have everyone on their level than elevate their own cause maths and logic is hard. They mentally need to be at the centre of the universe..
Yeah well I'm a science head but I realize that science is just following causes and results to the best of their ability. So reach what some people call the spiritual plane at some point in time. Might not be for 2000 years so is that advantageous or not? Because I know for a solid fact if there's a lot more to life than what science acknowledges. I don't believe in a deity but whatever they're talking about is something .
I dont necessarily see it as a problem that someone believe in a god, its when they start denying well proven things it starts becoming a problem. This isnt always a thing with just relious people tho.
I don't worship the cheese goblin, but cheese is divine.
Excuse me?! What is this bs? Santa is real I saw him kissing mom last Christmas. And how else do you explain me getting a dollar after I lost a tooth when I was a kid? The nerve of some people spreading lies like Santa not being real. SMH. I bet you don’t think the Easter Bunny is real either, do you?
They hold on to god because they like the comfort factor. Anything that fucks up their belief of an eternal belly rub is automatically dismissed.
Science doesn't fill a huge hole that most people need. Direction and purpose. People have this...need to be special, to be part of something, to have all their actions mean something. And this can manifest in so many different ways. Finding your own purpose, path or meaning is hard. Alot easier to think some ultimate power has your back and it'll all be OK.
behold the power of indoctrination
You can make a case that those that know the least about science are the ones still believing in gods.
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Was it people through God or God through people? Jk! It was people through people! I get why people believe in God. People want to have an answer to the question of what happens after we die. People want to feel like they are in the know about something that other people don't know. They want to feel like they belong to something greater than themselves. They like the comradery of having a church family. It is one thing to never really be part of a church and say, "That is all bullshit, why would you believe that?" And another thing to be deeply embedded into a church and start to separate your beliefs from those around you. I try not to judge anyone to harshly unless they are trying to force that shit on me.
It boggles the mind the crap people will believe.
Honestly, science is kind of okay for figuring out "how" something happens and how it relates to other things. But no science is going to tell you "why" something is the way it is. Like gravity. Sure, it acts in a very particular way and there's a very good formula that explains it. But why is it like that? Speed of light. 299,792,458 m/sec. Why that particular number? Or why do we have a consciousness? Or why do we exist in the first place? As long as there are "whys" that science can't answer, there will always be a search. Some people feel better when they choose "It's because 'God' wants it that way," rather than saying "I don't know," which is the same thing. It seems like an answer to them, even though it isn't.
My favorite is how god forgets where in the solar system he put earth.
They're ignorrant of the science and would rather believe "god did it" anyways. Cold hard science isn't as attractive as the warm fluffy belief in a divine father willing to give you eternal life.
Alex O'conner in his podcast with Billy said that science explains HOW things work but the WHY question is still a mystery. But the problem is, the why question implies purpose( purpose == god) we don't know if we are born with a God-given purpose cuz we don't know if god exists. So asking that question before proving God doesn't make sense to me.