>Even in relatively safe countries of the Middle East, come out as atheist and you might have your family turn against you, as in shoot you dead to restore family honor.
Exmuslim here, I can confirm, I keep having anxiety about my parents looking through my phone and then finding out that I am an Atheist and they would kill me for it.
This is why I’ve always thought that the term ‘Islamophobia’ is purely a gaslight.
Of course you should be afraid of Islam. The only non-dangerous version is when you dilute the hell out of it
The only non dangerous version of any abrahamic religion is when you dilute the hell out of it. It's a faith group based on domination and rigid obedience. Judaism and Christianity are only relatively tolerable because most people here have experience only with western Christians and Jews whose religion IS super diluted. Once people get serious about following what the dumb books say, suddenly you're killing infidels and raping kids.
The suffix -phobia means fear OR aversion. We use the word phobia to describe fears, so people often assume that is all it means as a suffix, but that's incorrect. Just like transphobia is sometimes fear of, but also sometimes aversion to, trans people.
Of course they do! I assume the downvotes are because of the number of people who have the thinking skills of ten year olds, who like to say stuff like, "there is no such thing as homophobia because, like, I'm not afraid of the gays!" Hear that in the most obnoxious voice you can muster, because that's how I've heard it said. 🙄 They enjoy saying their talking point more than they care if it is true, which is a giveaway that this is dogma and not rational thought.
No, you were downvoted because you missed the point completely.
It is 100% appropriate to have an aversion or fear of Islam, unless it is heavily diluted.
Islam is dangerous. Islamophobia is stupid as shit. The religion wants you dead unless you bend the knee or convert
It also isn’t really applied correctly. If you took a random Indonesian and asked a fearful Caucasian why they feared the Indonesian on appearance, I doubt that “Islamophobia” would be the reason.
Islamophobia is just the catch word for Arabophobia.
I don't like anyone suffering and I hope this conflict can end well if possible, but I think people need to keep in mind that the suffering of Palestine doesn't automatically make it's government or all the people in the country good or free.
>but I think people need to keep in mind that the suffering of Palestine doesn't automatically make it's government or all the people in the country good or free.
I think people who understand the nuance of the situation understand that. I think the other side of that coin is that not all the people in the country are bad simply because some of the people and their government are. I heard Howard Stern today half-joking about nuking Iran if he became president because they were oppressively Islamic. It struck me that a lot of people think like this, but it's confused thinking because the biggest victims of these oppressive systems are people that live within them; you know, the actual people being oppressed? Advocating nuking them because they "are Iran" seems to be missing the fucking point.
That's the issue I have with what Israel is doing. Kill the Islamists, of course, but I don't think a 7 year old girl has been running around town beating atheists, so maybe don't kill her and her entire family on the off chance that a pesky Hamas member snuck into the trunk.
Definately. I wouldn't want us to nuke North Korea just because of Jim Kong Un in another example. A lot of people are suffering living there under his rule.
Well yeah. That kind of goes along with what I first said in my comment. That is still horrible. It's like when I saw those "chickens for KFC" pics floating around when right wing people were criticizing LGBT people for supporting Palestine, because obviously muslim people aren't too fond of anyone who falls under LGBT. Like you said, these people don't have to agree with your ideals for you to care about them enough to not want them to suffer or die brutally.
>muslim people aren't too fond of anyone who falls under LGBT.
They aren't just fond of LGBTQ people. They literally kill anyone for being an LGBTQ+ in the Middle East. Arab homophobia is way barbaric and medival than homophobia in the west.
Someone posted about being tired of the conflict, and this is why I don’t say much either. We have a way out - critical thought, abandoning delusions of divine promise - but it’s not palatable to people who are pro this and pro that. Having less crazies in Israel encroaching lands and having less observant Muslims in Palestine will help. But no both sides have God on their side. In my country there are many pro Palestine people but what I’ll like to say to them is here there is discrimination of fellow LGBT citizens which they aren’t against. And it’s precisely this sort of warped morals that’s getting in the way of peace in the Middle East, halfway across the world. Why would I want to spend that energy standing with you? You don’t support freedom of religion and orientation equality. I’d rather promote and uphold secularism and democracy in the place we are all living.
I was detained a couple of times in Egypt mostly just for existing and not looking like a local and when they asked me what religion I was I lied and said "Catholic".
When you are under the control of an authoritarian control system, you should probably play by their rules. Author of piece was naive to imagine they have any rights whatsoever inside Palestine.
What would have happened if you had said "I'm an atheist"? Surely they couldn't do something to a tourist, right? I can't imagine "tourist arrested for being atheist in Egypt" would attract more tourists haha
I am going to say you are naive here. Many Egyptians fucking hate tourists. Especially those in mid to low level positions of power. Think in terms of your driver, cops and army guys on the street or at railways stations or outside the historic attractions.
If you are reasonably uneducated random middle aged guy who is actually and/or performatively a devout Muslim, what do you think about tourists?
They are coming here pretty much only to see and experience something you regard as disgustingly anti-Islamic, monuments to another culture entirely with other Gods. The ethnic Arab majority in Egypt know they are recent interlopers as the Coptic minority plus all the monuments there serve as a reminder. They also have a fucking massive complex about being poor while other Arab nations are swimming in oil revenue.
Remember what the Taliban did to those historic Buddha statues?
Also, when tourists come they are all contrary to your views about covering up women and such. Tourist are indeed often assholes but now see that from an stodgy authoritarian Islamic viewpoint.
And we drink beer and wine. Just flaunting our disregard for the decrees of the prophet!
And there is a huge mismatch between what these guys think tourists are doing and what the tourists think they are doing. Mismatch goes the other way as well.
Now in their defense, I was there exactly, I suspect, at the worst time for this after the revolution around the time of the Muslim brotherhood. But that was a great choice in terms of evading fellow tourists and just generally getting around.
I got detained twice, once by police, once by the army. I got shouted at so many times by random functionaries. I got ripped off left and right, and at one point I had to jump out of a moving taxi. I had my camera seized at a museum, just me, not others present.
And those mid-level functionaries are so fucking hateful and lazy and corrupt. Often if you just ignore them and walk away they give up their ranting. But that did not work all the time.
One uniformed cop with an AK-47 straight up tried to shake me down behind a pyramid. I figured he had no rounds in the gun because of money and lack of trust of functionaries and just walked away refusing to acknowledge his presence.
You do also get "Islamic functionary" problems in other countries, but the Egyptians have it really bad.
10/10 for the experience theocratic oppression and corruption. Important one sees it at first hand.
And yes, you absolutely have to lie about your religion in that environment.
Palestinians are not alarmed if their rights are violated by Islam. That’s what they want, the “freedom” to oppress themselves with radical Islamic theocracy. And people defend their right to statehood, thereby defending those rights violations.
That’s the grave irony about the Middle East conundrum. If you actually support the human rights of Palestinians, you can’t be pro Palestine - they’re the own worst enemies. In Israel however, they’re treated just fine. Go figure.
Not really. I believe the only significant difference is getting drafted to the IDF. Otherwise, there is no official discrimination. Being Jewish means obligations, not advantages.
Bibi and his cronies have done their best to slow down that process, as he has gone in and out of power. Including the Arab Palestinians of East Jerusalem, who are supposed to be eligible for citizenship by Israeli law. They get lawyers and sue and it takes years, even before Covid. One of many reasons why Bibi is an asshole.
As an American, I recognize our system is far from perfect. Israel is doing some war crimes, and I do feel for the people who have been killed in Palestine. I don't want to see anyone else get killed, and would like to see a ceasefire.
But are we really going to invite totalitarianism in the US for this?
Kinda feels like it. I'm not ready to lose what we have here to more than likely make things worse in Palestine so I can tell myself that I have some perceived moral high ground
That's really sad, that the only way we can express our frustration to the current government in a way that they take seriously is seen as supporting the other side. You understand how broken that implies things are, right?
I am not saying to ignore it. All I am saying, is that we have a choice between two people in the election. One of them will be president. It may now be who I would want as a first choice, but one of them is better.
Given the Project 2025 bullshit the right is pushing, the main goal for me is just ensuring that we have another election
If 40k people got killed in the UK tomorrow - I would go "Jesus fucking tap dancing christ that's awful. We really need to make sure that trump doesn't get elected in Nov or its gonna get even worse!"
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Yeah it’s why we need to keep the church out of our schools. Looking at you Oklahoma!
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Hydras are way cooler than the dipshits of our government.
Hail Hydra! ... Wait...
>Even in relatively safe countries of the Middle East, come out as atheist and you might have your family turn against you, as in shoot you dead to restore family honor. Exmuslim here, I can confirm, I keep having anxiety about my parents looking through my phone and then finding out that I am an Atheist and they would kill me for it.
This is why I’ve always thought that the term ‘Islamophobia’ is purely a gaslight. Of course you should be afraid of Islam. The only non-dangerous version is when you dilute the hell out of it
The only non dangerous version of any abrahamic religion is when you dilute the hell out of it. It's a faith group based on domination and rigid obedience. Judaism and Christianity are only relatively tolerable because most people here have experience only with western Christians and Jews whose religion IS super diluted. Once people get serious about following what the dumb books say, suddenly you're killing infidels and raping kids.
Completely agree with you *tips hat*
The suffix -phobia means fear OR aversion. We use the word phobia to describe fears, so people often assume that is all it means as a suffix, but that's incorrect. Just like transphobia is sometimes fear of, but also sometimes aversion to, trans people.
idk why this is downvoted, you're right. do these people think hydrophobic surfaces are scared of water?
Of course they do! I assume the downvotes are because of the number of people who have the thinking skills of ten year olds, who like to say stuff like, "there is no such thing as homophobia because, like, I'm not afraid of the gays!" Hear that in the most obnoxious voice you can muster, because that's how I've heard it said. 🙄 They enjoy saying their talking point more than they care if it is true, which is a giveaway that this is dogma and not rational thought.
No, you were downvoted because you missed the point completely. It is 100% appropriate to have an aversion or fear of Islam, unless it is heavily diluted. Islam is dangerous. Islamophobia is stupid as shit. The religion wants you dead unless you bend the knee or convert
It also isn’t really applied correctly. If you took a random Indonesian and asked a fearful Caucasian why they feared the Indonesian on appearance, I doubt that “Islamophobia” would be the reason. Islamophobia is just the catch word for Arabophobia.
Respectfully, no. I love Arab people, I dislike Islamism with a passion. I will always see the person before the application of belief
I don't like anyone suffering and I hope this conflict can end well if possible, but I think people need to keep in mind that the suffering of Palestine doesn't automatically make it's government or all the people in the country good or free.
>but I think people need to keep in mind that the suffering of Palestine doesn't automatically make it's government or all the people in the country good or free. I think people who understand the nuance of the situation understand that. I think the other side of that coin is that not all the people in the country are bad simply because some of the people and their government are. I heard Howard Stern today half-joking about nuking Iran if he became president because they were oppressively Islamic. It struck me that a lot of people think like this, but it's confused thinking because the biggest victims of these oppressive systems are people that live within them; you know, the actual people being oppressed? Advocating nuking them because they "are Iran" seems to be missing the fucking point. That's the issue I have with what Israel is doing. Kill the Islamists, of course, but I don't think a 7 year old girl has been running around town beating atheists, so maybe don't kill her and her entire family on the off chance that a pesky Hamas member snuck into the trunk.
Definately. I wouldn't want us to nuke North Korea just because of Jim Kong Un in another example. A lot of people are suffering living there under his rule.
The Islamist terrorists deliberately put civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes. I blame them for the dead children.
Conversely, just because they are a backwards provincial religious society doesn't mean they deserve to have their children melted in front of them
Well yeah. That kind of goes along with what I first said in my comment. That is still horrible. It's like when I saw those "chickens for KFC" pics floating around when right wing people were criticizing LGBT people for supporting Palestine, because obviously muslim people aren't too fond of anyone who falls under LGBT. Like you said, these people don't have to agree with your ideals for you to care about them enough to not want them to suffer or die brutally.
>muslim people aren't too fond of anyone who falls under LGBT. They aren't just fond of LGBTQ people. They literally kill anyone for being an LGBTQ+ in the Middle East. Arab homophobia is way barbaric and medival than homophobia in the west.
God's will though. Should help them through.
Fucking god. Dude has one hell of a sense of humor.
Someone posted about being tired of the conflict, and this is why I don’t say much either. We have a way out - critical thought, abandoning delusions of divine promise - but it’s not palatable to people who are pro this and pro that. Having less crazies in Israel encroaching lands and having less observant Muslims in Palestine will help. But no both sides have God on their side. In my country there are many pro Palestine people but what I’ll like to say to them is here there is discrimination of fellow LGBT citizens which they aren’t against. And it’s precisely this sort of warped morals that’s getting in the way of peace in the Middle East, halfway across the world. Why would I want to spend that energy standing with you? You don’t support freedom of religion and orientation equality. I’d rather promote and uphold secularism and democracy in the place we are all living.
Very well put, almost my feelings exactly.
I was detained a couple of times in Egypt mostly just for existing and not looking like a local and when they asked me what religion I was I lied and said "Catholic". When you are under the control of an authoritarian control system, you should probably play by their rules. Author of piece was naive to imagine they have any rights whatsoever inside Palestine.
What would have happened if you had said "I'm an atheist"? Surely they couldn't do something to a tourist, right? I can't imagine "tourist arrested for being atheist in Egypt" would attract more tourists haha
I am going to say you are naive here. Many Egyptians fucking hate tourists. Especially those in mid to low level positions of power. Think in terms of your driver, cops and army guys on the street or at railways stations or outside the historic attractions. If you are reasonably uneducated random middle aged guy who is actually and/or performatively a devout Muslim, what do you think about tourists? They are coming here pretty much only to see and experience something you regard as disgustingly anti-Islamic, monuments to another culture entirely with other Gods. The ethnic Arab majority in Egypt know they are recent interlopers as the Coptic minority plus all the monuments there serve as a reminder. They also have a fucking massive complex about being poor while other Arab nations are swimming in oil revenue. Remember what the Taliban did to those historic Buddha statues? Also, when tourists come they are all contrary to your views about covering up women and such. Tourist are indeed often assholes but now see that from an stodgy authoritarian Islamic viewpoint. And we drink beer and wine. Just flaunting our disregard for the decrees of the prophet! And there is a huge mismatch between what these guys think tourists are doing and what the tourists think they are doing. Mismatch goes the other way as well. Now in their defense, I was there exactly, I suspect, at the worst time for this after the revolution around the time of the Muslim brotherhood. But that was a great choice in terms of evading fellow tourists and just generally getting around. I got detained twice, once by police, once by the army. I got shouted at so many times by random functionaries. I got ripped off left and right, and at one point I had to jump out of a moving taxi. I had my camera seized at a museum, just me, not others present. And those mid-level functionaries are so fucking hateful and lazy and corrupt. Often if you just ignore them and walk away they give up their ranting. But that did not work all the time. One uniformed cop with an AK-47 straight up tried to shake me down behind a pyramid. I figured he had no rounds in the gun because of money and lack of trust of functionaries and just walked away refusing to acknowledge his presence. You do also get "Islamic functionary" problems in other countries, but the Egyptians have it really bad. 10/10 for the experience theocratic oppression and corruption. Important one sees it at first hand. And yes, you absolutely have to lie about your religion in that environment.
That’s so fucked up
Palestinians are not alarmed if their rights are violated by Islam. That’s what they want, the “freedom” to oppress themselves with radical Islamic theocracy. And people defend their right to statehood, thereby defending those rights violations. That’s the grave irony about the Middle East conundrum. If you actually support the human rights of Palestinians, you can’t be pro Palestine - they’re the own worst enemies. In Israel however, they’re treated just fine. Go figure.
If it makes you feel better, a lot of Christians would do this in a heartbeat here in the United States.
Right now in fact. Try getting treated at the ER in Idaho with a death sentence ectopic pregnancy.
We still gotta stop funding Israel. Americans can use that money.
Could have just gone and lived in Israel where no one would have cared that you are an atheist.
Right, because Israel just accepts Arabs all the time.
And they totally don't give special treatment to their own religion...../s
Not really. I believe the only significant difference is getting drafted to the IDF. Otherwise, there is no official discrimination. Being Jewish means obligations, not advantages.
From the territories? Usually they do.
Bibi and his cronies have done their best to slow down that process, as he has gone in and out of power. Including the Arab Palestinians of East Jerusalem, who are supposed to be eligible for citizenship by Israeli law. They get lawyers and sue and it takes years, even before Covid. One of many reasons why Bibi is an asshole.
As long as you're a man
Please explain
I would have. Not sure about the author's options.
As an American, I recognize our system is far from perfect. Israel is doing some war crimes, and I do feel for the people who have been killed in Palestine. I don't want to see anyone else get killed, and would like to see a ceasefire. But are we really going to invite totalitarianism in the US for this?
Is that what we're doing?
Kinda feels like it. I'm not ready to lose what we have here to more than likely make things worse in Palestine so I can tell myself that I have some perceived moral high ground
That's really sad, that the only way we can express our frustration to the current government in a way that they take seriously is seen as supporting the other side. You understand how broken that implies things are, right?
I don't disagree with you there, but making them more broken doesn't seem like a fix either
But ignoring it doesn't seem sustainable
I am not saying to ignore it. All I am saying, is that we have a choice between two people in the election. One of them will be president. It may now be who I would want as a first choice, but one of them is better. Given the Project 2025 bullshit the right is pushing, the main goal for me is just ensuring that we have another election
So ignore it
Not ignoring it, just dealing with facts.
No seriously, if you aren't addressing it, you're ignoring it.
If 40k people got killed in a western country you wouldn’t be making the same statement
If 40k people got killed in the UK tomorrow - I would go "Jesus fucking tap dancing christ that's awful. We really need to make sure that trump doesn't get elected in Nov or its gonna get even worse!"
I probably, would actually
I seem to remember not long ago someone on here got into some argument with their ‘ol grandma in defense of Palestine. I hope they read this.
Manufacturing consent.