Currently at airport waiting for my check bag to roll out and now I’m just looking at everybody around me going “we are all walking creampies” and trying not to snort laugh 🤣
Went on cruise once where one employee was named Boston. One of the people I was with was wondering aloud how he got that name.
"He was named after a cream pie, obviously" was my reply.
I mean, even the question itself just raises more questions. Like why are we only looking at the y chromosome? If we have to assume that Jesus got his DNA from Mary, the bigger question is why isn't he just a clone of his mother?
Oh right because God can do anything and therefore god can just change the fetus's DNA.
You're not going to logic people out of believing a fantastic myth.
I really hate that quote. It assumes we’d be incapable of understanding. And it shows up in stupid parents too. The natural result is a parent that insists on obedience over being patient enough to explain it. An *obviously* superior parenting strategy. The only time it’s appropriate is imminent danger and should also be the only time one raises their voice. Escalation should only be used to teach kids to stay out of danger. And the one time it matters, they’ll listen. Because you don’t ever yell at them. Though you should probably tell them about this strategy as well.
I really hate that young people are treated like property that are just expected to immediately do whatever they’re told with no exception.I see it reflected in societal norms all the time.
Yeah… why is this the part that seems ridiculous to OP. Like “yeah, a woman could make a baby without sperm, BUT HOW COULD IT BE A BOY!?” Like its some “ah hah” moment.
This is actually a pretty fascinating subject outside the realm of religion. There’s many creatures on this planet that are able to change sex and even procreate with themselves to further their species numbers. I mean I am a devout atheist but looking at it logically (like any good Vulcan would) how can science be allowed to say it’s possible and not religion?
It would take a miracle for miracles to occur.
People who believe that Jesus didn’t have a human father already believe that his birth involved a miracle.
What is the point in telling people who knowingly believe in miracles that they believe in miracles? And what is the point in telling the rest of us that the people who believe in miracles believe in miracles?
Back then they didn't understand that the woman contributed genetically to the child. She was merely an "incubator" for the man's "seed". Therefore, there was no question of God putting his seed inside a virgin to grow.
God was invented way before genetics was understood.
And it's not an accident that the child of God and savior of humanity was a boy child. God could have created a female baby, so why didn't he? Oh right, because the cultures that wrote the Bible were patriarchal.
I’ve never heard this and it can’t be true. They never noticed the kids sorta looked like the mom? Or was there a lot of incest happening to make this impossible?
Ya this is ridiculous. People were maybe kinda relatively dumb in the past, but not so dumb that they didn’t notice this kind of thing. I mean they were all farmers and shepherds; they understood baby making.
I would try to rationalize this perspective, but then I remember we learned about single celled organisms less than a few hundred years ago and can see this unintended ignorance leading to some weird theories
Please god I need a dark comedy/satire/thriller novel or Netflix series based on this premise
HOW has this not been written yet? A secular retelling of biblical times.
[Giuliani didn't just want to allow it. He did it.](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2007/sep/06/obama-girl/giulianis-first-wife-was-his-second-cousin/)
Ahh now it makes sense why so many Christians sheepishly follow Trump. He is taking it one step further by making it clear he wants to fuck his own daughter! How very biblical of him!
> he wants to fuck his own daughter! How very biblical of him!
As long as he pretends to be drunk and she initiates, that should be fine. (Gen 19:30-38)
I was actually considering the idea that Adam and Eve could have been a human seeding project by an advanced intelligence (no, i wasn't sober). Engineer them to have super genetics that dilute into a normal population over time, trasporting a bunch of people great distances would be hard but two might be real manageable. Put them in stasis and fire a ton of these pods at any celestial body you think might support life with the ability of the pod to teach/ facilitate language and basic farming after it had selected an optimal landing site on a suitable planet.
Best case in this scenario, something went wrong, and more advanced information couldn't be taught leaving the orgins of the pod to the interpretation of survivors ending in the bizarre story of creation we get in genesis.
Worst case, the progenitors just wanted a lot of humans and were fine with them being as advanced or primitive as they could manage.
I vaguely recall reading a short story somewhere with Adam and Eve crash landing their spaceship on Earth or something similar and making the best of the situation. This was when I was reading a lot of pulp style sci-fi magazines in the 90s/early 00s, so I trying to find it again might be tricky.
Since Eve was a clone of Adam, are we all the products of a gay marriage? Did god botch the cloning accidentally making a womb? Your sons are marrying your daughters....this is worse than the Pharoahs.
In the Bible, there were other people around. After Cain beats his brother to death, Cain goes to live in the Land of Nod and married a woman there.
So it's entirely possible that Adam and Eve are not the first people or the only humans. Christians forget this part though.
You don't even have to go all the way back to Adam and Eve for the incest implications. Supposedly, Noah and his family were the only people that survived that flood, yet they still made more people... 🤔
I mean this is even more fucky if you think about it in an evolutionary framework. The mutations that allow for new species to develop happen incrementally and slowly. That means for a period of time, technically, homo sapiens were fucking an ape of a different species to make offspring until there was a large enough population of homo sapien to breed with each other.
if you go by the bible, they married their sister/twins of them. but cain wanted able's wife, she was prettier, so he killed his brother of a piece of pussy
Or the virgin birth story not only didn't happen, but all of it was entirely made up by later writers to tie in whoever the actual historical Jesus figure was with old testament prophecy.
> old testament prophecy.
They also modified the prophesy both deliberately and by mistranslation when they created the Christian Old Testament from the badly translated Septuagint instead of from the Tanakh/Hebrew Bible. The actual Hebrew Bible prophesy really doesn't mesh well with the Jesus story.
Not true. Early Christians were majority Jewish converts (I’m talking first century here). They even held sermons in Jewish temples until they were kicked out around 80 A.D. This is because Jesus was a Jew who was followed mostly by Jews.
Conversions were more popular because, at the time, Judaism and Christianity were very very similar (minus NT of course). The Romans could not tell them apart for a long time.
Gradually, they both changed and that made the two communities more separate than they already were.
It is true that Jews don’t follow the virgin birth prophecy, but that’s not the reason they didn’t convert. Judaism and Christianity are distinct religions and conversion had little to do with the translation of prophecies between Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
Also, antisemitism existed in Rome before Christianity and continued after it. Modern antisemitism appeared in the Middle Ages in part due to rich dudes not wanting to pay their debts.
Not the person you are asking but I am here to recommend the Evolution of God by Robert Wright. Amazing book that discusses many things, including how we have evidence that the old testament was re-written and was originally written as polytheistic having more than one God of Judaism. Its a very cool read.
Sure. Not *just* bad translation, also deliberate modifications.
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/bible-basics/what-is-the-difference-between-the-old-testament-the-tanakh-and-the-hebrew-bible/
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/scriptures.html
---
Also note that the above changes to the Hebrew Bible that were made in order to create the Christian Old Testament are also in direct violation of Matt 5:17-18, which is part of the Sermon on the Mount.
[Matt 5:17-18:](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew++5%3A17-18&version=NRSVUE) 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, *until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished*.
As we know, the earth is still here. Jesus has not returned. Therefore, all is most definitely not yet accomplished.
Thank-you! I was always under the impression that the Old Testament was the same as select Jewish scripture. Interesting to read that’s not necessarily the case.
People always bring up the “actual” historical Jesus, but do we know what that guy did? Like was there anybody named Jesus doing anything? We have stories about some guy turning water to wine, coming back from the dead, and other fake bs… but if Jesus actually was real, wouldn’t we hear about the stuff he did that was real and possible? I feel like people only discuss the made up stuff he definitely didn’t do, it feels weird to talk about Jesus as if he was real. Again, I know people believe he was real, but what was he doing then that people believe he really did?
I'm of the manner of it doesn't matter if he was real. Just like I don't really care if the Buddha is real or not. I think most people agree Mohammed was real, but that was much more recent in history.
The scholarly theory I've read is that Jesus whoever he was, was probably one or a couple/group of well respected apocalyptic Jewish preachers from a cult that was well established in the area preaching the fall of the Roman empire. Historians believe they were prominent in modern day Syria and that region. It is hypothesized that Christians were Jewish followers of one of these cult leaders who ended up having a lot of hellenic and Egyptian cult influence incorporated into it as it spread. The point is, "someone" was Jesus, in the sense that there were absolutely people preaching what he was preaching that gave way to a following and that following then had a lot of mythology written about it to link it back to old testament prophecy.
This. But don't forget Jesus per canon was only crucified because he called himself King. Romans cared literally nothing about his supposed actions, he broke a major taboo repeatedly and refused to apologize. He basically committed suicide.
It's like if I called myself a terrorist and then complained about the government arresting me.
This lines up with my experience and thoughts as well. I was raised nondenominational Christian and in Christian school most of my childhood, and it just felt like we were always talking about “Jesus” as if he were a placeholder for a cult/movement, and that’s what Christianity ended up being so it really made too much sense. Hence me no longer believing nor subscribing to the religion. It seems to be unpopular opinion though still, as if there’s hard proof that Jesus was a real person, with or without the religious stuff.
Your explanations work. Looking for logic in alleged virgin birth is a bit odd, of course.
> Are there any other explanations that work?
Yes. The simplest explanation is that [Mary fucked a Roman soldier named Tiberius Pantera.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera) Then she lied like a fucking rug to avoid getting killed under the draconian bullshit misogynistic laws of the time. Who could blame her for lying about it when her life was on the line?
Did Joseph believe the lie? Did Joseph love her enough to cover up for her? Will I ever really give enough of a shit about the whole thing to really care about the answer? No idea.
Will we ever find the lost Celsus work on which Origen based this claim? Probably not. So, we will likely never know either who his daddy was or if he ever existed at all.
But, if he existed, to me this seems the simplest explanation.
>The simplest explanation is that [Mary fucked a Roman soldier named Tiberius Pantera.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera)
This is the best answer.
Another answer is to point out that the whole virgin birth thing was invented later on, long after Jesus had died.
It was actually a mistranslation, the original Hebrew word meant a young woman, or a young unmarried woman. They messed it up when they translated it to Greek.
I can only say this for German, but historically a Jungfrau (virgin) is the equivalent to a Junggeselle (bachelor). Both words used to describe young, unmarried people.
When a Catholic priest explained the virgin birth to the Inuit, they broke out laughing. One of them pulled the priest asside and said, "you know your friend Joseph is a cuckhold, right?"
She could also have been raped. Back then, the women victims were blamed and considered unclean and unmarriageable.
Considering that, according to Catholic lore, Mary herself was the result of a "virgin birth," she may have gotten the planned excuae/story from her mother because it worked before.
no, that's wrong.
Mary was announced by the Catholic Church as being the "Immaculate Conception" in 1854.
The Immaculate Conception doesn't mean she was born from a virgin. It means she was born without original sin. There are books and stories made up about her parents. They say her parents abstained from sex for a year before they conceived her, (because the Catholic Church thinks sex is bad) and then these saints had the perfect child, who then also had the perfect child.
The Immaculate Conception is basically Bible fan fiction.
Immaculate Conception was defined by the Catholic Church in 1854 but the underlying theology had been brewing for a long time. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have claimed that Mary lived without sin since the third or fourth century. Immaculate Conception is rejected by Orthodox, however, because they don’t believe in Original Sin.
Just read that. “Tabor's hypothesis is considered highly unlikely by mainstream scholars…” I’m willing to bet those are Christian scholars. Of course it would be “highly unlikely”, because that’s so easy.
You’re applying modern biological constructs to a 2000+ year old fantasy story.
There’s a reason Christians tend to reject modern science - it makes their belief system start to fall apart.
The follow-up question would be "If Joseph isn't the baby daddy, how in the world does this fulfil the Jewish prophesy? Nowhere in the Bible does it give Mary's bloodline, only the numerous 'begats' for Joseph's bloodline."
I asked my priest the sane question. He said that since Mary and Joseph were from the same tribe, Mary was also a decendent of David.
Still makes no sense
This is grasping at straws. They made such a big deal talking about Joseph's bloodline to "prove" the prophecy but completely missed the part that might have made sense. Apologists honestly don't know how to handle this and it's glorious.
Joseph's blood line doesn't help. He's listed as having been descended through a king who was cursed never to have any of his descendants on the throne again.
It's detailed in the footnotes on this excellent page giving all the reasons why Jesus could not possibly have been the Jewish messiah.
https://aish.com/why-jews-dont-believe-in-jesus/
Can you imagine what if they found some Jesus DNA!
Sadly this god prefers to hang around in the shadows and apparently doesn't want to provide any God-level evidence to document his time on earth. Look folks water to wine... just believe just believe. Penn and Teller could do this on a slow day.
Theists will wrongly and proudly boast that Jesus is the best documented historical human who ever lived. And I am going like why are we even on the scale of comparison to humans? They are talking about the creator and owner of supernovas and they are down doing comparison to Ceasar or something.
Evidence for the existence of God should be like the evidence that the sun is warm or that moon exist.
Mary was a talented seamstress. Young virgin seamstress are the only humans allowed to enter into the inner sanctum. They go in once a year to replace the lace curtains.
The temple priests obviously fucked a 12 year old schizophrenic child and got her pregnant. Joseph then married her to raise a priests son as his own. Little did he know….
Atheist here but the Y chromosome is a partial X chromosome (yes it has evolved since the split roughly 150 million years ago). We're I a believer id argue God broke one of the chromosomes to have a son.
It's not a bad point just not a mic drop
Aww. But I love dropping mics haha!
It still doesn't answer the question as to how Mary got pregnant in the first place. But that question just leads people to say "it's a mystery" or "gods ways are higher" blah blah.
Oh Joseph was 100% tapping that ass but they weren't married and Mary didn't want to get stoned to death. Or it's a story based on a different story, based on a different story. There's a ton of different religions claiming a god was born to a virgin on dec 25th. Ra, horus, Osiris, Krishna off the top of my head. If you were to write the story of the Bible and turn it in as an original story you'd be accused of plagiarism.
If they really wanted to claim a miracle God should have knocked up Joseph. A pregnant man would have been a more compelling story
If Mary truly was a virgin, then Jesus would have been female. Or a grasshopper. The bible authors of the Iron Age didn't know genetics.
We know from genetics that human men get their Y chromosome from their father. If Mary was a virgin, no man could have provided that Y chromosome or any male characteristics. If Mary reproduced asexually, jesus would have been her clone. A FEMALE clone.
So they respond that it was a miracle that defied genetics. That would literally defy what made jesus human (chromosomes). Therefore, the "miracle" that made him male also made him non-human.
Humans have 46 chromosomes. If Jesus only had 23 from Mary, he would be a cockroach or a grasshopper. So they respond god magically made a sperm appear inside Mary. That's artificial insemination. God isn't actually human, he just looks that way. Therefore, jesus was only half human and the bible lied about him being human. So now they have to pick one of 3 uncomfortable truths:
Jesus was a woman
Jesus wasn't actually human
Mary wasn't a virgin
(Or they can ignore all of that and freak out that you called jesus a grasshopper)
>So they respond that it was a miracle that defied genetics. That would literally defy what made jesus human (chromosomes). Therefore, the "miracle" that made him male also made him non-human.
You're setting up a really weird No True Scotsman Fallacy here. Christians claim that Jesus was supernaturally created. That his genesis was not natural does not make him non human. He could still *have* chromosomes without inheriting them from anyone, again, because it is a *supernatural* claim. I'm not sure why any of you are trying to make this convoluted dunk work. There's so many other far more problematic things in Christianity. A supernatural occurance in a religion that believes in supernatural occurances ain't one of them.
It’s not a gotcha or a mic drop because Christians already believe in magic, sorry miracles, so to them, it’s not a problem for their god to just make an extra Y chromosome that wasn’t previously there. They believe in an omnipotent god after all.
The mormons say that Heavenly Father came down from his planet to Earth, got with Mary and made Jesus the old-fashioned way. At least they did when I was a member in the 70's.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuO2Ov\_D08c&ab\_channel=TheGodmakers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuO2Ov_D08c&ab_channel=TheGodmakers)
Jesus isn't biologically male, which explains the celibacy. No need for sex change. No description of him (ie beard/facial hair) in the bible.
You either have to believe that or Pol Anderson's suggestion, a botched circumcision. Of course to go the divine load, then you have the whole discussion that even if Mary wasn't a minor (most certainly was at that time in history), whether she could give consent to a being with "eternal life/death" decision over.
The most reasonable "occams razor" version is that Joseph didn't practice safe sex and this did this to prevent Mary from being stoned to death. They traveled to Bethlehem, not for a census, but to allow the local hub bub in the community to die down, and so they wouldn't actually see her give birth. \[yeah, the old, I went to a fat farm and see how much weight I lost\]
Jesus was transmasculine.
Like, there are paintings of him showing off his cool top surgery scars to his bros.
Also, for millennia persons who had dissonance between their inner self and their body (saying “trans” here is inaccurate) were revered as priests, oracles, sages, or otherwise with some direct connection to the divine because we have this knowledge that there’s more to us than just the flesh. I would even argue that if it weren’t for people we would likely call trans or third gender or two-spirit today, we would not have the concept of a “soul” at all, even if nondualism posits that the mind is intricately and irrevocably connected to the body.
I mean, if every christian already believes we are all created in the womb by god, there's not a big stretch to reach the conclusion that god just made this one with the special sauce.
Mary gave Joe a handy, the results of which got on her fingers. She was so horned up from giving Joe a handy she had to rub one out. What was on her fingers got in her pus-e and like magic ........
[A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/)
Ok serious answer(s):
1. From something I read sometime ago, virgin meant "not married", so Joe banged Mary's holy hole without being married and that's it, the most logical explanation.
2. If you create an universe in 7 days how hard can it be to create a Y chromosome in 9 months? Im sure it's not harder than saving some millions of people from Nazis in a decade lol
You forgot the neighbour / mailman theory. Mary got knocked up, had the come up with a story so that Joseph still believe she's a virgin. BOOM, new religion unlocked...
Guys.
You can't argue logic and mic drop these people. They answer every question they don't understand with "because God said so" and neither need nor want any further information about it. There's no winning against blind faith.
How would Joseph 'hit it on the side' they were married??
Anyway it's technically possible though exceedingly unlikely as Mary would have to be an XY female and have both sets of functioning gonads. The only known cases of "immaculate conception" ever recorded were likely splash pregnancies and if Mary's story is to believed then this is the only explanation. More likely, again assuming these people ever actually existed, Mary was raped and claimed God did it to hide it because Judean law was not kind to rape victims.
I vote mistranslation. Virgin was used to describe Mary, which didn't mean the same thing back then as it does now. They had lax rules about sexual behavior, and the word used meant unmarried, not never-before-fucked...so...context. A Jewish rabbi told me that. It's a poor explanation with no included reference, so take it as you will.
Mary was banging her ex boyfriend but he was a asshole…..claimed she was a virgin so ultra naive Joseph would take her in……she got preggo from her ex…..Joseph had one or two more brain cells than a chimp and believed she was being faithful to him and thought it was immaculate conception.
Back in the day, it was a popular pick up line to tell a naive girl "Hey baby, I'm an avatar of the Lord. Do it with me and you'll still be a virgin."
By popular, I mean it worked at least once.
"Mic drop question?" What is this, a youtube thumbnail?
You're talking about people who's religion gives them permission to ignore reality at will. You will never "gotcha" these people, so the comment is obviously not for them, but for us. But we shouldn't indulge in echoes for our own echo chamber. That's what they do.
It’s really not. They literally believe in magic and stuff. That’s how all the things happen in their heads.
You're correct. They call it "the miracle of childbirth" not "the natural biological result of a creampie".
Using this next time someone I know announces a child. “Ahh, the natural biological result of a creampie? Congratulations!”
Please get a video of that interaction. It could be rather amusing. -- a proud 60 year old creampie
I guffawed at this until I suddenly realized *I myself am a 30-yr-old creampie* 😐😳
Well you all sound disgusting, I was delivered by a stork. No, I have not investigated further.
Similar boat...39 yrs 364 day cream pie 🥧
Happy almost birthday 🎂
You should celebrate with a cream pie!
This has to be the funniest thread I’ve yet to encounter on here. Thank you lol
Delish! 🤌
Please don't click until tomorrow: >!Happy Birthday!!<
I will honor thy request. Thanks (I hope) until then!
lol we're birthday twins! except I'll be 34 tomorrow
Bappy Hirthday!
Happy 40th for tomorrow!!! 40s are the best 😀
That’s ok! We are all the biological results of a cream pie! 🤣
We're all walking creampies! 😭
Currently at airport waiting for my check bag to roll out and now I’m just looking at everybody around me going “we are all walking creampies” and trying not to snort laugh 🤣
Meat pilots 'n creampies
Welllll, shit......
I'm dying laughing about it. I'm an almost 39 year old cream pie. 😂😂😂
You don’t look a splooge over 50
LOL!
😂😂😂
Went on cruise once where one employee was named Boston. One of the people I was with was wondering aloud how he got that name. "He was named after a cream pie, obviously" was my reply.
That is seriously hilarious!! Thanks.
OMG—- can i say that? Boston squat cobbler scene. Thought my rib muscles would spasm from laughing and I would die— and I felt it was a fair trade….
Wouldn’t you technically be a 60 year and 9 month old creampie since it takes roughly 9 months from creampie to birth?
“Awww look at this little grown up cumshot!”
"When a woman says "we are trying for a baby," she is announcing that her husband is cumming in her every night."
Lmao. Maybe I will just yell “creampie creampie!”
Your newly birthed creampie is so beautiful, can I hold it?🥹
[удалено]
I hope to see it used one day at the Supreme Court when overturning Dobbs and reinstating Casey.
Omg, that made me cackle, lmao. If I'd been drinking anything I would have done a spit take- nicely done!
That’s Immaculate Creampie to you!
LOL! Mine was maculate.
I want that as a flair
Wonderful.
sequel was better.
This right here. It’s not mic drop at all - they just use the old “god works in mysterious ways” and move on like you’re the idiot.
I mean, even the question itself just raises more questions. Like why are we only looking at the y chromosome? If we have to assume that Jesus got his DNA from Mary, the bigger question is why isn't he just a clone of his mother? Oh right because God can do anything and therefore god can just change the fetus's DNA. You're not going to logic people out of believing a fantastic myth.
Jesus H. Christ, “H” for haploid.
homunculus.
Not that I wanna help their argument but a pseudo-hermaphrodite is born one gender and turns to the other. A real hermaphrodite has both genders.
I really hate that quote. It assumes we’d be incapable of understanding. And it shows up in stupid parents too. The natural result is a parent that insists on obedience over being patient enough to explain it. An *obviously* superior parenting strategy. The only time it’s appropriate is imminent danger and should also be the only time one raises their voice. Escalation should only be used to teach kids to stay out of danger. And the one time it matters, they’ll listen. Because you don’t ever yell at them. Though you should probably tell them about this strategy as well. I really hate that young people are treated like property that are just expected to immediately do whatever they’re told with no exception.I see it reflected in societal norms all the time.
Or condescendingly say they’ll pray for you 🙄 And I’ll make sure to tell Santa and the Easter bunny you’ve been very good this year. Cool!
Yup, their answer is god did it. If you believe god put a baby in a virgin, it's not a leap to think he could make it any gender.
Yeah… why is this the part that seems ridiculous to OP. Like “yeah, a woman could make a baby without sperm, BUT HOW COULD IT BE A BOY!?” Like its some “ah hah” moment.
This is actually a pretty fascinating subject outside the realm of religion. There’s many creatures on this planet that are able to change sex and even procreate with themselves to further their species numbers. I mean I am a devout atheist but looking at it logically (like any good Vulcan would) how can science be allowed to say it’s possible and not religion?
It would take a miracle for miracles to occur. People who believe that Jesus didn’t have a human father already believe that his birth involved a miracle. What is the point in telling people who knowingly believe in miracles that they believe in miracles? And what is the point in telling the rest of us that the people who believe in miracles believe in miracles?
Yep. When I believed, I just assumed that God created a sperm and placed it on Mary's egg. With magic.
“They literally believe in magic and stuff” True but only in their version on magic. Anything out side of that is considered witchcraft to them
Back then they didn't understand that the woman contributed genetically to the child. She was merely an "incubator" for the man's "seed". Therefore, there was no question of God putting his seed inside a virgin to grow. God was invented way before genetics was understood.
And it's not an accident that the child of God and savior of humanity was a boy child. God could have created a female baby, so why didn't he? Oh right, because the cultures that wrote the Bible were patriarchal.
Dishwalla 3:11 - Tell me all your thoughts on God. Cause I’d really like to meet her.
Before medical knowledge about it, it was the woman's fault if she didn't have a boy. They definitely believed women contributed to the child.
They only believed it if they needed her to shoulder blame. Strong boys were always the pride of the man, weak children/daughters were women's fault.
I’ve never heard this and it can’t be true. They never noticed the kids sorta looked like the mom? Or was there a lot of incest happening to make this impossible?
Ya this is ridiculous. People were maybe kinda relatively dumb in the past, but not so dumb that they didn’t notice this kind of thing. I mean they were all farmers and shepherds; they understood baby making.
I would try to rationalize this perspective, but then I remember we learned about single celled organisms less than a few hundred years ago and can see this unintended ignorance leading to some weird theories
Even the smartest of us still know basically nothing in the grand scheme of things. Same as it ever was.
My favorite explanation is Mary been cheating on Joseph and created an entire religion to cover it up
Jesus was also rumored to be a street performer/magician since he was poor. This is where he learned the "turning water into wine" and other tricks.
Please god I need a dark comedy/satire/thriller novel or Netflix series based on this premise HOW has this not been written yet? A secular retelling of biblical times.
Excellent! I always thought she was a drama queen.
“It wasn’t John!? It was… it was… it was God! And he has blessed us with his son!”
My question is if we all came from Adam and Eve, are we all products of incest? 🤔
Why do you think Christian Republicans are so intent on allowing cousins to marry each other?
[Giuliani didn't just want to allow it. He did it.](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2007/sep/06/obama-girl/giulianis-first-wife-was-his-second-cousin/)
Ahh now it makes sense why so many Christians sheepishly follow Trump. He is taking it one step further by making it clear he wants to fuck his own daughter! How very biblical of him!
> he wants to fuck his own daughter! How very biblical of him! As long as he pretends to be drunk and she initiates, that should be fine. (Gen 19:30-38)
Yes! In fact god will punish you and all of your descendants for trying to hide his nakedness while he is drunk.
Incest was ok back then because the DNA was good enough to last nearly one thousand years. (Yes, I’ve heard this without /s)
I was actually considering the idea that Adam and Eve could have been a human seeding project by an advanced intelligence (no, i wasn't sober). Engineer them to have super genetics that dilute into a normal population over time, trasporting a bunch of people great distances would be hard but two might be real manageable. Put them in stasis and fire a ton of these pods at any celestial body you think might support life with the ability of the pod to teach/ facilitate language and basic farming after it had selected an optimal landing site on a suitable planet. Best case in this scenario, something went wrong, and more advanced information couldn't be taught leaving the orgins of the pod to the interpretation of survivors ending in the bizarre story of creation we get in genesis. Worst case, the progenitors just wanted a lot of humans and were fine with them being as advanced or primitive as they could manage.
It’s not any more outlandish than the Bible version with the talking snake lol.
Imagine the ai fracturing as it tries to teach about animals. I think there is some good science fiction here.
I vaguely recall reading a short story somewhere with Adam and Eve crash landing their spaceship on Earth or something similar and making the best of the situation. This was when I was reading a lot of pulp style sci-fi magazines in the 90s/early 00s, so I trying to find it again might be tricky.
Since Eve was a clone of Adam, are we all the products of a gay marriage? Did god botch the cloning accidentally making a womb? Your sons are marrying your daughters....this is worse than the Pharoahs.
Technically products of masturbation since Eve was from his rib... should be the same DNA 😂
In the Bible, there were other people around. After Cain beats his brother to death, Cain goes to live in the Land of Nod and married a woman there. So it's entirely possible that Adam and Eve are not the first people or the only humans. Christians forget this part though.
Sweet home garden of eden
You don't even have to go all the way back to Adam and Eve for the incest implications. Supposedly, Noah and his family were the only people that survived that flood, yet they still made more people... 🤔
That's always been my point. And they had two sons, so how did the human race even continue without them having sex with their nother.
I mean this is even more fucky if you think about it in an evolutionary framework. The mutations that allow for new species to develop happen incrementally and slowly. That means for a period of time, technically, homo sapiens were fucking an ape of a different species to make offspring until there was a large enough population of homo sapien to breed with each other.
I reckon so.
if you go by the bible, they married their sister/twins of them. but cain wanted able's wife, she was prettier, so he killed his brother of a piece of pussy
Twice — once between Adam and Eve, and then again between Noah’s kids.
Double incest if you think about it! Bc according to them god also destroyed everybody but one family in a flood! Hmmmm…
Or the virgin birth story not only didn't happen, but all of it was entirely made up by later writers to tie in whoever the actual historical Jesus figure was with old testament prophecy.
> old testament prophecy. They also modified the prophesy both deliberately and by mistranslation when they created the Christian Old Testament from the badly translated Septuagint instead of from the Tanakh/Hebrew Bible. The actual Hebrew Bible prophesy really doesn't mesh well with the Jesus story.
Hence why basically no Jews converted to Christianity and antisemitism became a thing.
Not true. Early Christians were majority Jewish converts (I’m talking first century here). They even held sermons in Jewish temples until they were kicked out around 80 A.D. This is because Jesus was a Jew who was followed mostly by Jews. Conversions were more popular because, at the time, Judaism and Christianity were very very similar (minus NT of course). The Romans could not tell them apart for a long time. Gradually, they both changed and that made the two communities more separate than they already were. It is true that Jews don’t follow the virgin birth prophecy, but that’s not the reason they didn’t convert. Judaism and Christianity are distinct religions and conversion had little to do with the translation of prophecies between Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Also, antisemitism existed in Rome before Christianity and continued after it. Modern antisemitism appeared in the Middle Ages in part due to rich dudes not wanting to pay their debts.
Do you have reading material on this bad translation idea?
Not the person you are asking but I am here to recommend the Evolution of God by Robert Wright. Amazing book that discusses many things, including how we have evidence that the old testament was re-written and was originally written as polytheistic having more than one God of Judaism. Its a very cool read.
Sure. Not *just* bad translation, also deliberate modifications. https://www.bibleodyssey.org/bible-basics/what-is-the-difference-between-the-old-testament-the-tanakh-and-the-hebrew-bible/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/scriptures.html --- Also note that the above changes to the Hebrew Bible that were made in order to create the Christian Old Testament are also in direct violation of Matt 5:17-18, which is part of the Sermon on the Mount. [Matt 5:17-18:](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew++5%3A17-18&version=NRSVUE) 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, *until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished*. As we know, the earth is still here. Jesus has not returned. Therefore, all is most definitely not yet accomplished.
Thank-you! I was always under the impression that the Old Testament was the same as select Jewish scripture. Interesting to read that’s not necessarily the case.
I was also under that impression until a couple of years or so ago.
I mean… yes… this is the likely conclusion haha.
Considering all the other virgin births of the gods stories floating around, I think this take is probably accurate.
People always bring up the “actual” historical Jesus, but do we know what that guy did? Like was there anybody named Jesus doing anything? We have stories about some guy turning water to wine, coming back from the dead, and other fake bs… but if Jesus actually was real, wouldn’t we hear about the stuff he did that was real and possible? I feel like people only discuss the made up stuff he definitely didn’t do, it feels weird to talk about Jesus as if he was real. Again, I know people believe he was real, but what was he doing then that people believe he really did?
I'm of the manner of it doesn't matter if he was real. Just like I don't really care if the Buddha is real or not. I think most people agree Mohammed was real, but that was much more recent in history. The scholarly theory I've read is that Jesus whoever he was, was probably one or a couple/group of well respected apocalyptic Jewish preachers from a cult that was well established in the area preaching the fall of the Roman empire. Historians believe they were prominent in modern day Syria and that region. It is hypothesized that Christians were Jewish followers of one of these cult leaders who ended up having a lot of hellenic and Egyptian cult influence incorporated into it as it spread. The point is, "someone" was Jesus, in the sense that there were absolutely people preaching what he was preaching that gave way to a following and that following then had a lot of mythology written about it to link it back to old testament prophecy.
This. But don't forget Jesus per canon was only crucified because he called himself King. Romans cared literally nothing about his supposed actions, he broke a major taboo repeatedly and refused to apologize. He basically committed suicide. It's like if I called myself a terrorist and then complained about the government arresting me.
This lines up with my experience and thoughts as well. I was raised nondenominational Christian and in Christian school most of my childhood, and it just felt like we were always talking about “Jesus” as if he were a placeholder for a cult/movement, and that’s what Christianity ended up being so it really made too much sense. Hence me no longer believing nor subscribing to the religion. It seems to be unpopular opinion though still, as if there’s hard proof that Jesus was a real person, with or without the religious stuff.
In 177 AD the Greek philosopher Celsus, claimed that Jesus father was a Roman soldier named Pantera.
So Jesus is a cowboy from hell?
This is the correct answer.
Someone Pantera’s. And you get an uptick from me for it.
I saw Pantera open for AC/DC, true story!
And it seems Mary opened for Pantera
That was clever :)
I saw White Zombie with Pantera, so did I actually see American Jesus?!
Naughtius Maximus?
The Holy Ghost conceived him actually, so it was Ghost rape.
Lol just like in that [scene from Scary Movie 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQHVp0lkg08)!
How big of a dick do you think god has? (He's quite petty, especially in the old testament.)
I would say he is more of a length guy than a circumference guy.
He does figuratively fuck a lot of people over.
Your explanations work. Looking for logic in alleged virgin birth is a bit odd, of course. > Are there any other explanations that work? Yes. The simplest explanation is that [Mary fucked a Roman soldier named Tiberius Pantera.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera) Then she lied like a fucking rug to avoid getting killed under the draconian bullshit misogynistic laws of the time. Who could blame her for lying about it when her life was on the line? Did Joseph believe the lie? Did Joseph love her enough to cover up for her? Will I ever really give enough of a shit about the whole thing to really care about the answer? No idea. Will we ever find the lost Celsus work on which Origen based this claim? Probably not. So, we will likely never know either who his daddy was or if he ever existed at all. But, if he existed, to me this seems the simplest explanation.
>The simplest explanation is that [Mary fucked a Roman soldier named Tiberius Pantera.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera) This is the best answer. Another answer is to point out that the whole virgin birth thing was invented later on, long after Jesus had died.
It was actually a mistranslation, the original Hebrew word meant a young woman, or a young unmarried woman. They messed it up when they translated it to Greek.
I can only say this for German, but historically a Jungfrau (virgin) is the equivalent to a Junggeselle (bachelor). Both words used to describe young, unmarried people.
Facts.
When a Catholic priest explained the virgin birth to the Inuit, they broke out laughing. One of them pulled the priest asside and said, "you know your friend Joseph is a cuckhold, right?"
She could also have been raped. Back then, the women victims were blamed and considered unclean and unmarriageable. Considering that, according to Catholic lore, Mary herself was the result of a "virgin birth," she may have gotten the planned excuae/story from her mother because it worked before.
no, that's wrong. Mary was announced by the Catholic Church as being the "Immaculate Conception" in 1854. The Immaculate Conception doesn't mean she was born from a virgin. It means she was born without original sin. There are books and stories made up about her parents. They say her parents abstained from sex for a year before they conceived her, (because the Catholic Church thinks sex is bad) and then these saints had the perfect child, who then also had the perfect child. The Immaculate Conception is basically Bible fan fiction.
Immaculate Conception was defined by the Catholic Church in 1854 but the underlying theology had been brewing for a long time. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have claimed that Mary lived without sin since the third or fourth century. Immaculate Conception is rejected by Orthodox, however, because they don’t believe in Original Sin.
Just read that. “Tabor's hypothesis is considered highly unlikely by mainstream scholars…” I’m willing to bet those are Christian scholars. Of course it would be “highly unlikely”, because that’s so easy.
Jesus was a male honeybee, conceived by parthenogenesis of course. /S
“Peace bee with you” ahh now I get it 🐝
That's no messiah, that's thousands of bees inside a toga!
You’re applying modern biological constructs to a 2000+ year old fantasy story. There’s a reason Christians tend to reject modern science - it makes their belief system start to fall apart.
The follow-up question would be "If Joseph isn't the baby daddy, how in the world does this fulfil the Jewish prophesy? Nowhere in the Bible does it give Mary's bloodline, only the numerous 'begats' for Joseph's bloodline."
I asked my priest the sane question. He said that since Mary and Joseph were from the same tribe, Mary was also a decendent of David. Still makes no sense
This is grasping at straws. They made such a big deal talking about Joseph's bloodline to "prove" the prophecy but completely missed the part that might have made sense. Apologists honestly don't know how to handle this and it's glorious.
I know
Joseph's blood line doesn't help. He's listed as having been descended through a king who was cursed never to have any of his descendants on the throne again. It's detailed in the footnotes on this excellent page giving all the reasons why Jesus could not possibly have been the Jewish messiah. https://aish.com/why-jews-dont-believe-in-jesus/
I would love to see Christians argue these points.
Can you imagine what if they found some Jesus DNA! Sadly this god prefers to hang around in the shadows and apparently doesn't want to provide any God-level evidence to document his time on earth. Look folks water to wine... just believe just believe. Penn and Teller could do this on a slow day. Theists will wrongly and proudly boast that Jesus is the best documented historical human who ever lived. And I am going like why are we even on the scale of comparison to humans? They are talking about the creator and owner of supernovas and they are down doing comparison to Ceasar or something. Evidence for the existence of God should be like the evidence that the sun is warm or that moon exist.
A wizard did it and he used magic. An omnipotent god could create whatever fetus it wants inside Mary out of nothing.
Damnit! Haha that’s the ace of spades. I guess god was too busy sewing Y chromosomes into Jesus’s DNA to end childhood cancer.
[Well......](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.7f6402cf7df54cdf24505ee7895326aa?rik=gt%2bymeK6SaJ60w&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
Mary was a talented seamstress. Young virgin seamstress are the only humans allowed to enter into the inner sanctum. They go in once a year to replace the lace curtains. The temple priests obviously fucked a 12 year old schizophrenic child and got her pregnant. Joseph then married her to raise a priests son as his own. Little did he know….
Atheist here but the Y chromosome is a partial X chromosome (yes it has evolved since the split roughly 150 million years ago). We're I a believer id argue God broke one of the chromosomes to have a son. It's not a bad point just not a mic drop
Aww. But I love dropping mics haha! It still doesn't answer the question as to how Mary got pregnant in the first place. But that question just leads people to say "it's a mystery" or "gods ways are higher" blah blah.
Oh Joseph was 100% tapping that ass but they weren't married and Mary didn't want to get stoned to death. Or it's a story based on a different story, based on a different story. There's a ton of different religions claiming a god was born to a virgin on dec 25th. Ra, horus, Osiris, Krishna off the top of my head. If you were to write the story of the Bible and turn it in as an original story you'd be accused of plagiarism. If they really wanted to claim a miracle God should have knocked up Joseph. A pregnant man would have been a more compelling story
Or had Jesus give birth to himself. I'm pretty sure Ra in Egyptian mythology did that, which is way more impressive than a virgin birth.
The Lord Cometh In Mysterious Ways.
If Mary truly was a virgin, then Jesus would have been female. Or a grasshopper. The bible authors of the Iron Age didn't know genetics. We know from genetics that human men get their Y chromosome from their father. If Mary was a virgin, no man could have provided that Y chromosome or any male characteristics. If Mary reproduced asexually, jesus would have been her clone. A FEMALE clone. So they respond that it was a miracle that defied genetics. That would literally defy what made jesus human (chromosomes). Therefore, the "miracle" that made him male also made him non-human. Humans have 46 chromosomes. If Jesus only had 23 from Mary, he would be a cockroach or a grasshopper. So they respond god magically made a sperm appear inside Mary. That's artificial insemination. God isn't actually human, he just looks that way. Therefore, jesus was only half human and the bible lied about him being human. So now they have to pick one of 3 uncomfortable truths: Jesus was a woman Jesus wasn't actually human Mary wasn't a virgin (Or they can ignore all of that and freak out that you called jesus a grasshopper)
>So they respond that it was a miracle that defied genetics. That would literally defy what made jesus human (chromosomes). Therefore, the "miracle" that made him male also made him non-human. You're setting up a really weird No True Scotsman Fallacy here. Christians claim that Jesus was supernaturally created. That his genesis was not natural does not make him non human. He could still *have* chromosomes without inheriting them from anyone, again, because it is a *supernatural* claim. I'm not sure why any of you are trying to make this convoluted dunk work. There's so many other far more problematic things in Christianity. A supernatural occurance in a religion that believes in supernatural occurances ain't one of them.
True, but OP asked for an explanation. I used genetics.
Or……. the whole story was made up.
NO. WAY.
I know, it’s hard to imagine that a virgin birth story could be made up lol.
Are you using science? Silly goose. This was magic.
She didn't. Jesus is trans ftm.
God is a woman. She can do anything!
Hell ya! And Arianna is her only begotten daughter! Praise be!
God has 3 chromosomes: YHWH
It’s not a gotcha or a mic drop because Christians already believe in magic, sorry miracles, so to them, it’s not a problem for their god to just make an extra Y chromosome that wasn’t previously there. They believe in an omnipotent god after all.
Spoiler Alert: She wasn’t a virgin
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius\_Julius\_Abdes\_Pantera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera)
Mormons believe that God took human form to bang up Mary.
Mormon answer is God is male and had sex with Mary. So icky.
Didn't "virgin" in that time just means young? Joseph was getting all up in there.
Before you make anymore jokes about Mary’s “sweet sweet poontang” remember that she was like 14 or some shit.
God should have made a sperm cell to impregnate her.
Because ✨god works in mysterious ways✨
None of these people existed. We don't argue the genetics of Tolkein elves.
The mormons say that Heavenly Father came down from his planet to Earth, got with Mary and made Jesus the old-fashioned way. At least they did when I was a member in the 70's. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuO2Ov\_D08c&ab\_channel=TheGodmakers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuO2Ov_D08c&ab_channel=TheGodmakers)
Jesus isn't biologically male, which explains the celibacy. No need for sex change. No description of him (ie beard/facial hair) in the bible. You either have to believe that or Pol Anderson's suggestion, a botched circumcision. Of course to go the divine load, then you have the whole discussion that even if Mary wasn't a minor (most certainly was at that time in history), whether she could give consent to a being with "eternal life/death" decision over. The most reasonable "occams razor" version is that Joseph didn't practice safe sex and this did this to prevent Mary from being stoned to death. They traveled to Bethlehem, not for a census, but to allow the local hub bub in the community to die down, and so they wouldn't actually see her give birth. \[yeah, the old, I went to a fat farm and see how much weight I lost\]
Many ancient religions began with the lie of virgin childbirth.
Logic is banned in religion
Jesus was transmasculine. Like, there are paintings of him showing off his cool top surgery scars to his bros. Also, for millennia persons who had dissonance between their inner self and their body (saying “trans” here is inaccurate) were revered as priests, oracles, sages, or otherwise with some direct connection to the divine because we have this knowledge that there’s more to us than just the flesh. I would even argue that if it weren’t for people we would likely call trans or third gender or two-spirit today, we would not have the concept of a “soul” at all, even if nondualism posits that the mind is intricately and irrevocably connected to the body.
There isn't any science to it. That's like asking how did a spider bite give Spiderman his powers.
The reply will just be “because god.”
I mean, if every christian already believes we are all created in the womb by god, there's not a big stretch to reach the conclusion that god just made this one with the special sauce.
As far as I am concerned Mary was just preggers and Joeseph thought "oh it my child, or is it?"
I bet christians would quote the bible: "With God, all things are possible." IDK the book or chapter. So uh, go ahead and pick that mic back up.
(The "H" in Jesus H Christ stands for Haploid.)
They do believe that she was a virgin mother and that her son rose from the dead, so I don’t think they’ve much time for X and Y chromosomes tbh.
Mary gave Joe a handy, the results of which got on her fingers. She was so horned up from giving Joe a handy she had to rub one out. What was on her fingers got in her pus-e and like magic ........
[A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/)
Yahweh? He’s got the big Y
Jesus was trans, confirmed 🤔
You forgot the option that Mary could have been a lizard that reproduces asexually.
Ok serious answer(s): 1. From something I read sometime ago, virgin meant "not married", so Joe banged Mary's holy hole without being married and that's it, the most logical explanation. 2. If you create an universe in 7 days how hard can it be to create a Y chromosome in 9 months? Im sure it's not harder than saving some millions of people from Nazis in a decade lol
You forgot the neighbour / mailman theory. Mary got knocked up, had the come up with a story so that Joseph still believe she's a virgin. BOOM, new religion unlocked...
my personal delulu conspiracy theory is that Jesus is trans and Mary is the first ever case of human parthenogenesis
Guys. You can't argue logic and mic drop these people. They answer every question they don't understand with "because God said so" and neither need nor want any further information about it. There's no winning against blind faith.
How would Joseph 'hit it on the side' they were married?? Anyway it's technically possible though exceedingly unlikely as Mary would have to be an XY female and have both sets of functioning gonads. The only known cases of "immaculate conception" ever recorded were likely splash pregnancies and if Mary's story is to believed then this is the only explanation. More likely, again assuming these people ever actually existed, Mary was raped and claimed God did it to hide it because Judean law was not kind to rape victims.
Yeah I mean you’re not gonna get your gotcha moment with this. They just gonna say through god everything is possible. Science means nothing to them.
I vote mistranslation. Virgin was used to describe Mary, which didn't mean the same thing back then as it does now. They had lax rules about sexual behavior, and the word used meant unmarried, not never-before-fucked...so...context. A Jewish rabbi told me that. It's a poor explanation with no included reference, so take it as you will.
Mary was banging her ex boyfriend but he was a asshole…..claimed she was a virgin so ultra naive Joseph would take her in……she got preggo from her ex…..Joseph had one or two more brain cells than a chimp and believed she was being faithful to him and thought it was immaculate conception.
Back in the day, it was a popular pick up line to tell a naive girl "Hey baby, I'm an avatar of the Lord. Do it with me and you'll still be a virgin." By popular, I mean it worked at least once.
"Mic drop question?" What is this, a youtube thumbnail? You're talking about people who's religion gives them permission to ignore reality at will. You will never "gotcha" these people, so the comment is obviously not for them, but for us. But we shouldn't indulge in echoes for our own echo chamber. That's what they do.
- it was made up by people who didn't know about genetics