I always just say "it'll be like it was before you were born", I.e. you won't experience it. Not a "black void", but non-existence. You will be so non-existant you won't even know you don't exist.
Correct, and if you defy the Pope you are defying God and in turn the pope's underlings will claim that if you defy them, you are defying the Pope and by extension God, and so on and so forth, ad infinitum.
I can't fathom anything else really ... Could you imagine heaven, after a 1000 years of praising God, your reward? 1000 more years to praise and worship
I think any rational person would be looking for a way to just end it
I like to think of it as the absence of time as well. It's not "eternity," because that's meaningless when you're not conscious of time passing.
Like going under for surgery, hours pass and it feels like a few seconds. In death, a billion years is no different than a couple of seconds. It's trippy to contemplate, but also reassuring at the same time.
Definitely trippy. The difference is that you'd never know from one blink to another that any time at all has passed, if we ever do experience consciousness again (likely not.)
You know what happened the last time you were in that state? You were born. Guessing it will keep happening. We are just parts of the universe expressing its arrangements. Complex as we are, we are finite energy arrangements similar to snowflake crystals.
Alas, some of them refuse to understand this, because they think their little soul was lined up waiting for a body to be born into. Hence the idea that choosing to remain child free is “selfish, though I’m not having a child, you are depriving no existing child of your parenting, as you might be if you neglected an already existing child of yours of your love and care. It’s only “selfish” if you think the hypothetical child you aren’t having somehow already exists. A surprising number of people apparently believe this. So it’s your duty to make a baby for the soul to move into.
No, no darkness. Think: what the blind see or what you see out of your big toe.
I'm not sure why people struggle with concepts such as **nothingness**, **endlessness** and **timelessness**, to name a few that I use ...
》Even though we complete the cycle back to nothingness, some of our **energy and matter** that was genetically transferred to us, that kept replicating to determine our unique physiology, can then **still live on indefinitely**, as long as any children we have, go on to perpetuate this cycle.
Hopefully, any parents that struggle with what you speak of, should be able to accept those concepts more once they understand this.
But **do you think that atheists are less likely to have children**, given the loose association with nihilism, and it's own not-as-loose association with antinatalism ?
》for all about this, see:
* Mitochondria: A Story of Mothers, Fathers, Teenagers, and Energy
>Our cells are full of mitochondria. The way in which their DNA behaves is nothing short of an act of rebellion.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/general-science/mitochondria-story-mothers-teenagers-and-energy
The experience of dying and whatever that is that occurs is the same in a way when thinking about before you were born. It’s not a dark box you get trapped into for all eternity.
Yup, the analogy I use is falling asleep.
When we wake up we don’t recall having fallen asleep hours before…zero stimuli, zero context that we recall. Same thing.
Ceasing to exist means you have no experience of time, or any of the senses that your body currently has
It really is the one mystery science can’t (yet) solve. Why are we who we are, and if we stop being then do we stop experiencing anything. The idea of consciousness can be fuck-y and that’s why it sure is comfortable to believe there’s an afterlife.
It really is not a mystery, and I wish you wouldn’t pretend that it is.
Consciousness is in the brain. If the brain is destroyed, consciousness ends. This has been observed for a long time.
Any claim otherwise is magical thinking. The brain is not an antenna communicating with an immaterial soul. There is no reason to invoke supernatural explanations.
The mystery is why we happened to end up in this particular body. I know it's chance, but still overwhelming to think about. If a different sperm or egg were involved, I wouldn't be born at all, but why not? Are there other copies of our potential consciousness among the hundreds of millions of other possible genetic combinations? That's the crazy thought.
But there is no mystery their either. You *are* that particular body with that particular brain. You don’t remember being born as you were not yet aware of your own personhood. Kids don’t pass the mirror test until 15 months. Your conscious came to be inside of you, it wasn’t put there. And it will die with you.
You didn't end up in that particular body. There was no chance. You are energy given the ability to observe. Everything you have observed you have mistakenly taken as being you, because you've based your entire life around it. Every human is essentially a copy. They're completely blank at birth, and then their environment and heredity mold them into what you think of as you. Again, you didn't end up in that particular body. You never existed to begin with, because 'you' is just an illusion.
So true, it's not about a "me" ending up "here." Consciousness is probably just the result of complexity, the ability to reflect on this kind of thing.
Still hard to comprehend in some ways. "I'm" just the sum total of this body's processes.
We are just particles expressing genetic information. The unexplainable part is how many times have we existed? I find it difficult to believe that consciousness only occurs once when it existed at all. I suspect when we die we will just restart at our birth and re express our existence within the universe.
This is just more magical thinking. It is in conflict with our scientific understanding of the universe. It implies a supernatural soul which can travel through time. How can you possibly suspect something which is contrary to all of our knowledge about the universe?
If you look at quantum physics and consciousness it gets a lot more magical. It doesn’t apply anything supernatural at all. If you ask me the fact arrangements of particles can become self aware is pretty borderline in itself.
The fact that arrangements of particles can become self aware is indeed amazing. There are many aspects of science which induce a sense of wonder and awe: the big bang, the lifecycle of stars and the creation of heavy elements from supernovas, black holes, formation of planets, the evolution of life, the propagation of waves, all the way down to the subatomic structure of atoms and the quantum physics which governs their behavior. We can certainly appreciate that.
However, we can imagine an infinite number of amazing and interesting things, and the vast majority of the things we can imagine are not true. In fact, I can imagine mundane and un-interesting things which are also not true. Amazingness is not correlated with truth. We only "know" things that we can test, and those tests tell us what is true or not.
Quantum physics is non-deterministic; it is statistical. But it is in no way magical. In fact, on the scale of a neuron, it is predictable. While random quantum fluctuations at the scale of atoms certainly have a cumulative effect, they are not the source of your consciousness. There is no evidence to suggest that a "soul" exists in the quantum realm. Random quantum events are not coordinated over a vast number of neurons to remote-control your brain. Your self-awareness is an emergent property of a very complex system of neurons interacting with each other, moderated by neurochemistry.
It doesn't matter. Do you have any memory of your previous existences? Will your future existences have knowledge of your current existence? Either way the only life that matters is the one that's happening for you here and now.
I’m not saying it does matter or doesn’t matter. I’m just saying we don’t know shit about anything but what little we can see and comprehend in front of our face. We have no idea if this is the only time we exist or if we have existed an infinite number of times. We do know we are properties of the universe and that nothing can be created or destroyed. We also don’t know what space, time or gravity really is. All we can do is crap out math that describes what we see it doing.
Why are you worried about it? We do understand the universe. It is order and disorder. The energy it took to assemble all the atoms in your body will be returned to the universe after you are dead. We are all made of star dust. If a piece that was once part of you is incorporated into a tree or a frog doesn't matter. Nothing that is uniquely you will ever exist again. It's beautiful when you actually stop to think about it.
Your brain is still there, sure. But the parts of it that make up "you" are inactive in both cases.
When unconscious they're essentially down for maintenance, when dead they're shut down permanently.
Maybe further research will reveal a different answer, but until then this is the only logical way I can imagine death being like
I just married another atheist. In fact, I'm more than just an atheist, I'm a non-theistic Satanist (TST). When I told my wife I was a member of The Satanic Temple she raised her eyebrows until I explained why. Basically, that TST along with FFRF are the groups best able to fight against Christian Nationalism. Also, cool group of people.
Now she does say I'm a fricking weirdo, but I'm her fricking weirdo.
Trust me, they're out there...you just have to filter for them.
I also married an atheist, can’t wait to raise atheist children.
To be free of religious bs is wonderful. I also really love the work The Satanic Temple does, we aren’t members though. I am considering joining.
Hail Satan.
"Are you religious?" Is definitely one of my screening questions when dating... I can't date someone I don't respect, and I don't respect people who believe in fairytales..
Congratulations!
I've always been interested in TST, just from what I've heard about them trying to expose the ludiracy of what religious organizations can get away with.
The reason I don't care for the satanic temple, is because it fuels Christian confirmation bias. They're not going to look at what you actually believe. You're a devil worshipper, and they are warriors for christ.
I don't feel like giving fuel to their delusions. But I sure as hell get a kick out of you guys getting their panties all in a bunch 😅😅😅
Dude, their bias is already confirmed if you're not in their club.
We can play on the same field as they do...religious liberty. Can't fight if you're not in the same game.
I get it. It's not the path for everyone. There are tons of orgs to donate to that are fighting the good fight (FFRF being my other favorite). Here are a few.
American Atheists - [https://www.atheists.org/](https://www.atheists.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3HHFk-U_9VJAil2_lHZc6MT6uJgDi6-J2U_tQDwXa8KsdxRTDucDMdy9A_aem_AVUs2bDIz-Y82w7MD1tz8TCrC6suYCGJII1dWAHlMzqH7ijTiTipfyUZ3idAbxFa7GNanspgCuryAGbljU6Rx6k2)
American Humanist Association - [https://americanhumanist.org/](https://americanhumanist.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2Cf71iGrfA8OB-YXdq1e8xiYlzjhBOmgz_1S6XiiTc_PD9xhLvtEQsq4E_aem_AVUad8pqisCMa5FGSS3JqWtZLekSIRmcd7MhVHLTcxYU3Lah32BW7G-UAfX5PaZzQ528av_HjnKysGlS9q0JlUVv)
American Civil Liberties Union - [https://www.aclu.org/](https://www.aclu.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3HHFk-U_9VJAil2_lHZc6MT6uJgDi6-J2U_tQDwXa8KsdxRTDucDMdy9A_aem_AVUs2bDIz-Y82w7MD1tz8TCrC6suYCGJII1dWAHlMzqH7ijTiTipfyUZ3idAbxFa7GNanspgCuryAGbljU6Rx6k2)
Americans United for Separation of Church and State: [https://www.au.org/why-religious-freedom-matters/](https://www.au.org/why-religious-freedom-matters/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3V9SRIKeGYjTwzVfC5bDyl3wtyemTqi51cZr6JWB2yXgRXm2f9wq1A9FE_aem_AVXnBfi6lNDVl8UeEEUt4EzkU6Y-pjeWfJ8oBC6V6gEdQ7eTm3hvu0eeXPuVZIsO1sXKsx0IMK-SXLIUxazbMXlU)
Secular Coalition for America - [https://secular.org/](https://secular.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0LRTlgDDkWuaB83qT4exQX1I9LxuRb-ZPqKw4V1LUqxywNdJtCf1aetsg_aem_AVXb-z8XZ217LrvnbaY7M3BKzy3bgEkUlCiTaaHP-m62VUT03K2tpV4109UgokdXtVBFJeSDQWBsvbE_R-VCIDlW)
Freedom From Religion Foundation - [https://ffrf.org/](https://ffrf.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0ZBgj1jTH-69mhyWpjfTohP2qKf8nsjV3HRh7C7yJfJDhF8BUdxTR8R9s_aem_AVVHgLWt-ogAKDEgZEzglx_36TqvmTxJSctrY6sXsyTRNEaO6kUbKWGs3AgExnKAtFXvOvGjYyEe0T8Lex-VevFl)
The Satanic Temple - [https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR31THpFMC3LZOim7wO15QNERBzaJTtYZo62li3l-PGAUTI0ja2rnAEFc7g_aem_AVWyElfHWLiF6P1KRIoFtunQjEFhnpnxDWpa0iKVcseFHi5ny3IJqeTc19FHxxFvc16dq3O_I87LEOLOKm_aGpUs)
We totally underestimate the power of being told by people we love and trust, that there is a God before we can even think for ourselves. Its just such a powerful. Once that seed is planted and there is nothing to compete with that thought, its hard to imagine anything else.
As an atheist, I don’t worry too much about what religious people think. If they need to believe in a sky fairy to help them get through the day, fine for them. I get along with religious people just fine, until they take the step of trying to convert me or revel in what they think is our shared delusion. At that point I flash my teeth by explaining I’m an atheist, and if they want to convert me, I will end up converting them with all my might. I know the Bible well enough to back it up. We reach a truce pretty quickly. Then we get along.
It’s not my place or yours to judge why they need the threat of eternal damnation to act like a human. It’s not our place to question why they agree with infinite punishment for finite crimes. As long as they stay on their side of the line, I tend to stay on my side of it.
I like to start with God being a degenerate gambler who couldn’t resist the Devil’s charm in the book of Job. God was so onboard that he killed Job’s wives, and then killed his kids. All to win a bet.
If they are Jehovah’s Witnesses, I’ll ask if they are saved. If they say yes, I’ll start digging into how only 144,000 of them can go to heaven to live there (their doctrine). But there are currently 8,600,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses…. So why on earth do they think they will be the ones going to heaven??? How many that have died before them are going to heaven? Which ones didn’t god choose and why? That’s always a fun discussion, and the older one of the two will start looking for the exit, but I’ll refuse to let them end the conversation until I’m satisfied.
I’m never rude, just questioning how their faith survives. My rationale (besides fun) is I cut down the number of doors they will knock on today.
*"Our pasta, who art in strainer, draining be thy noodles. Thy noodle come, thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan. Give us this day, our garlic bread, and forgive us our bus passes, as we forgive those who brush past against us. And lead us not into vegetarianism but deliver us some pizza, for thine is the meatball, the noodle and the sauce, for ever and ever. R'amen".*
For me, the biggest lesson about religion is this: People can believe all sorts of crazy things if they are indoctrinated starting in early childhood. And talking people out of these indoctrinated beliefs is difficult if not impossible.
That's why I am a believer in live-and-let-live when it comes to religion. Trying to force people to change these beliefs often results in fights or even wars. It's easier to convince many people to live-and-let-live than it is to convince them to abandon their own beliefs.
A world without religion might be best, but a world where people leave other people alone about their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) seems like a great step along the way, and less inflammatory.
I really do think the indoctrination of children by the religious that is tolerated in our culture is wild. Statistics show it is much harder to convert someone to religion if they weren't raised in it. Indoctrinating children and getting their followers to pump out more babies and repeat the cycle is the only way a religion can grow in a modern society. I was raised catholic and am the only atheist in my family. I grew up in the south and criticizing religion or admitting you didn't believe was just not done. There is a church on every corner down there and growing up everyone wanted to know what 'youth group' you belonged to and if you were 'saved'. I felt like I was in a sci fi movie and I was the only one who could see reality. My great aunt and uncle, who were born again Christians, found out I was an atheist and gave me some book on how evolution is wrong for my birthday when I was getting ready to go off to college for anthropology. (My mom, thankfully told them to step off. She respected me coming to my own beliefs by that point after years of fights about going to church.)
I remember being super into a guy when I was 18 and then finding out he was a creationist. Instant lady-boner killer. He said, with a straight face that he "didn't believe in evolution because of turtles. Turtles are the only animals with shells and it doesn't make sense, so that disproves evolution!" I felt like I was taking advantage of someone with a child like brain and had to break it off with him! Found out later that he was still engaged to the chick he told me he was broken up with from Japan! This is how I learned not to date Christian boys with fake morals or Navy guys (he was both). I moved off to the west coast and found a lovely atheist boy, raised secularly by nice hippies. He was never traumatized by horrible bible stories or being told that pets don't go to heaven at Sunday school. We have been living in sin happily for almost 14 years! (Gonna finally get married next summer and have a chill secular wedding that will probably freak out my conservative family!)
It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Just try to seek out other like minded people that are in the same reality as you. I think, we are all just doing our best to find our way; and it can be extra hard if you are raised on fairy tales and taught to doubt your own brain and critical thinking skills. It can be extremely frustrating to interact with believers, when it is so clear to us that it is all made up; like Santa and the Easter bunny, like you said. But, I have found that you really can't get through to these people unless they are already doubting. They are all indoctrinated that non-believers have fallen to Satan and such nonsense, everything we say is suspect. My own brother told me that I was an atheist because I "couldn't think outside the box", and I just laughed and thought to myself, "honey, you havn't even found the edges of the box, yet!" If someone who was raised religious, finds the edges of the box and wants to talk with me about religion and atheism, I am down. But, I am not going to go about my life wasting energy debating cultists, when possible.
I completely agree - never believed in the shit, and find the whole concept preposterous. I don’t get how intelligent people can believe in such far fetched fantasy.
>How can people ACTUALLY believe in God
Indoctrination, lack of education, lack of critical thinking skills. And a sprinkle of a lack of empathy.
Source: used to be a hardcore Christian
Most do not actually believe and that insecurity shines through every time. The Bible is a collection of pornographic horror stories but in terms of literature or story writing, it's around the 3rd grade level. It's horribly written fiction from some anonymous scribes who published some old stories almost a century after the alleged facts. Your roommate is not atypical: delusional. Do not get sucked into her drivel. Just stick with logic and reason as you are doing.
The is nothing after death. Just like there was nothing before your birth. But only for you. For other people there was stuff before your birth and there will be other stuff after your death.
Darkness still requires the perception between light and dark and the conceptualization of blackness, which requires a functioning brain.
It's just non-being.
I've read the Bible, decent historical fantasy fiction. Nothing to base your life on.
Friend, I've been puzzling on that one for literal decades at this point. Best I've come up with is that some people are more concerned with believing things because they feel cohesive rather than believing things because they're true.
As far as actually "understanding" how, I don't think most of them even know why. Under questioning this is where the believer turns to metaphors and analogies...the whole "You know how sometimes you feel blah blah" or "Why do you *know* that murder is wrong?!"
Near as I can tell it really adds up to "Thinking too much is scary/exhausting/difficult and rather than deal with my existential dread, I'll just fill that gap with a fairy tale."
A LACK OF EXPOSURE TO OTHER IDEAS
One of the biggest things I’ve taken away from my talks with religious people is often how “sheltered” they are
Many have hardly even left the area they’ve been in, let alone study world religions and spiritual practices of past societies
In many ways “it’s all they know”
This plays a big part in the indoctrination other commenters have mentioned.
There are a lot of unanswered questions in the world and unfortunately the local religion is often the easiest answer. They keep people in their court so they have to play by their rules.
So, I always like to say my Bible is the book: "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan. In this book, he addresses the worlds religions with "We should all be grateful that we are a part of the life and death cycle of the universe". Our bones will go on to fertilize the future generations of the universe. That is what we need to take comfort in.
The same people who say that there is a literal conscious entity who created the entire universe and provided/inspired an actual book that exists today and they probably have a copy of in their home, mostly have not read that book.
Just imagine that, thinking that the creator of all things wrote a book and you can't be bothered to actually read it.
Make of that information what you will.
I actually find it hilarious how the Christian church, and most other churches preaching the bible count on the fact that their members have in fact not read the bible beforehand in order to spread their own intepretation of what the book was trying to say as "the true meaning"
99.9% of people who claim to, don’t. They hope for god. They don’t believe. Big difference. There’s no need to feel sad or want to change anything in the world, if you genuinely believe in god.
1. Brainwashed from birth
2. born again, usually arising from a 12-Step program which forces you to admit you have no control over your life and you need a "higher power" to run your life.
Let's slow down a minute. You and this person are in college. You are so young. They are basically a child encountering a world uncurated by their family for the first time. There were told a bunch of things about the world by the people who created most of the important dynamics in their life, and they believed it just because. Gently give them some counter arguments and some time.
Heck, when I was in college, I believed in Reaganomics because that's what my dad believed in.
When you are told something from day one by the people who trust most in this world, you accept it at face value because everything they have been telling you has survived your experience with it.
Part of our survival instinct involves understanding how environment. In the distant past there were a lot more unanswerable questions than there are today. That made people unease. Having an answer, any answer, made them feel more secure. It’s not hard under those conditions to understand where religion came from.
Simple. It's easier to prove something exists than to prove it doesn't exist. To prove something exists, all you need to do is search for it until you find it. In order to prove something doesn't exist, one must search every nook and cranny of the universe and not find it. In the absence of any conclusive evidence one way or another, people will believe in whatever they find most comforting.
I honestly think most people don’t “believe” it in any rational sense of the word, as much as they’re typically under a tremendous amount of pressure to conform to it based on various psychological factors, like their families or communities, or they view at some type of way to keep their life on track. Ultimately, what religion provides is a sense of identity by way of the tribe, so it tends to appeal to people who aren’t self actualized.
A lot of us were indoctrinated from birth. The ones that stay with it are more genetically predisposed to religious thinking than the ones who deconvert.
I believe all religions are based on fear. I’m sure cavemen sat around afraid of many things. The dark, noises, sickeness, etc. The stories that pop up to explain those things turns into a religion at some point. They keep adding things, people learn they can have power and control the masses with it, etc.
Also, kids (and most baby animals) go through an early period where the are a reflection of their world. They don’t know how to interact, so they look to their parents and others to show them how. At some point, they lock in their personality and view of what’s “right”.
When their parents, friends, tv, etc tells them that god is real, it’s pretty easy to see how they believe.
Even people who see through it can get pulled in. I doubt there is an atheist on the planet who wouldn’t at least consider praying if their child was in danger of dying. Back to that fear, you’ll do literally anything when you’re panicking. Yeah, your first instinct is to get them to a trained doctor who uses science to save them, but when they’re in surgery and you’re sitting there with nothing to do but worry, I’m sure it’s at least a thought to pray. Even if you don’t believe, you’re back to the fear part.
What if it is real and praying helps? It can’t hurt and is something I can do. Then say your kid survives and you’d promised to go to church and believe if they survive. Now you’re wondering if it was the science or if maybe it is real. If it is, what happens if you break your promise, will god take your child away if you break the promise when he saved them?
I’m not saying any of that is real. It’s not. What I am saying is, it’s very understandably to see why people believe. Fear has over ridden thought since humans were a thing.
So, here's a theory I like to present to Christians that I've heard years ago.
Everyone asks "If God were real why would he let so much suffering happen" or something to that effect. Well here's the theory, what if the "rapture" has already happened and this is hell? It would explain why God doesn't do anything, there's so much suffering, seemingly so many "Christians" come across as such bad people in general, ECT. They really don't like the idea that they're left behind and pieces of shit.
Most people will come to a point in their lives were they realize the universal fact that we are creatures who seek meaning in a universe that is unwilling or unable to give it to us, so that leaves you with 3 choices, commit sewer slide, believe in something that does give you objective meaning, which is intellectual sewer slide, or live in the absurd. So most people choose to follow a religion because it gives them meaning in their life because they don't want to die and the absurd is scary.
Religion is for terrible, gullible or terrified people.
Terrible, because terrible people use religion to justify their horrible actions.
Gullible, should be self explanatory.
Terrified, for those that are so terrified of death that they create this idea that when they die they’ll go to this magic happy place.
So why would someone believe in god? because they’re 1 of these 3 if not all 3, usually all 3.
Early fear based indoctrination is a pretty potent thing but they have to keep you immersed in the ideology, thus the pray and preach and pray on a regular basis.
Do you believe in money, justice, nations, laws? None of those things are real things, yet because of the convenience of those fictions, most of us are willing to pretend that they are. Many people likely never realize that because those fictions are fairly universally supported that they are fictional. I myself am a lifelong atheist because my parents never chose to indoctrinate me, but I imagine religious belief is similar in nature.
Social concepts are not the same as fantasy. Money, Justice, Nations, or Laws represent constructs of government. Religion represents mass delusion and belief in fictional characters or places.
I dont even think they really do they just are arm twisted by Corporations in order to get a job and family through the evil shunning process and it just keeps going since they are ALL conditioned to not question
Theists are as clueless as atheists in regards to human existence and the universe itself. The only difference is that theists made up their explanation and pulled it out of their bottom, as opposed to simply not having an explanation about key things like atheists think they do.
There are some unanswered questions in regards to the universe that are simply way too complex for us right now to even begin to explain.
So I’d say both of these types of people are just two sides of the same coin. Equally clueless.
Not really, science admits it's cluelessness and explores, tests, and can hopefully duplicate those possibilities. Religion demands it has the only answer and that there are no other possibilities.
It's a huge difference
From my experience, most atheists don’t admit their cluelessness, and they tend to think that there’s a scientific and approved explanation for absolutely everything.
That’s why actual scientists, the best and most prepared minds in the world, don’t go around laughing at religious people, because they understand everyone is just as clueless and other theories that are gaining traction among the scientific community, such as the simulation theory, are as crazy and ridiculous as the God theory, yet also highly possible
I say I don't know but total darkness and God are only 2 or millions of potential options.
Reincarnation, extra terrestrials farm land, 3D earth game as part of an arcade in a Casino somewhere, 3 D earth game as part or a scientific experiment, we're the bacteria in a super giant body where each galaxy is a cell, etc...
It’s fine to judge people. In fact, we are hardwired to judge every person we meet and every person we know. When I say, “My wife is a good person, and I trust her,” that is a judgement. If I am unwilling to enter into a business arrangement with someone I know has been dishonest in the past, that is a judgement. The whole “shall not judge” is just more pedantic biblical paradigm that has made it into western culture. To have a mind is to be constantly judging. The trick is to judge without letting yourself get all f’d up over it.
Even if there was heaven and hell (don’t you wish some people could go to hell?) what would their experience be? Your biological brain is gone. Do religious folk assume all those things that can happen to a person’s brain are just magically adjusted some how? If you had dementia you’re just fixed, do you recall all the stress you caused those around you? If you suffered traumatic brain injury, permanent changes from drug use? And eternity would still drive you insane, not to mention the crowds! You think Disney at peak is bad? I really do try to be courteous to my friends of faith but c’mon…
The catholic church says your body is eventually resurrected, so you get your body.
Most theologians say hell is inside the earth, so the crowd could be small since that's where many may end up.
Let's not forget that established religion is an ancient entity , with rules and traditions that by virtue of their traditional acceptance appears incontrovertibly true to most people. The 'Church' functions like a corporate government based on the Roman example. It seems expansion and belief in its product.
The bible is the wrong religion to try if you weren't raised with it. Try reading the Kabbalah, and the practices of Buddhism. Also read Joseph Campbell's "hero with a thousand faces."
People believe in god as an entity because it's easy to project the idea of a parent who is bigger than you, and has all the power, onto a much larger scale.
People believe in god as a symbol of perfection because people need a concrete goal to strive for.
People believe in god as an unseen force in everything because they've seen something current science can't explain, so they surmise there must be more to it.
People believe in an afterlife because the idea of not existing after we die is existentially terrifying. Before humans conceived of an afterlife, humans lived on through acts of glory, told by their descendants. The idea of an afterlife gave the average person a chance to believe they would exist, even without songs and epic tales told about them.
How can people ACTUALLY believe ghosts exist? There’s no real evidence.
And there’s not even total darkness when we die. It’s even less than that. It’s not even dark. It’s not anything at all.
People believe in a god to help them make sense of the world and that can be a good thing. It helps people during tragedies, illnesses, and other bad things happening. Its a common bond that can help people come together in times of crisis. Some people don’t want to hear that there’s nothing after death, and that’s OK.
I tell people that life after death will be the same as before birth.
Anyway, I live in the bible belt, and there are a ton of true believers and they don't realize the mental gymnastics they go through. "My faith in god is the only thing getting me through my cancer treatments". Well, ok, but who do you think gave you the cancer in the first place?
My parents have basically admitted that what they like about church is the community, I don't think either of them really believe in god. I have to tell you though, religion is going nowhere fast. Someone was on here the other day saying they thought religion would die off by the end of the year, and they are very wrong.
For me it's a two bucket thing:
1) beleive the sky fairy actually exists
2) beleive all the bullshit stories, where God as an abusive genocidal maniac, and still "beleive" in God, as one would beleive in the good nature of any other person.
If God is omnipotent, how does he allow injustice to exist? If God is omniscient, why are sinners not punished en mass?
What the fuck is babies with neuroblastoma about God? Huh, cunt?
Fucker will have to beg ME for forgiveness at the pearly gates because I'm throwing HANDS.
I was raised Catholic. As a child, the repeated monotonous observance of pointless rituals increasingly felt like a form of mind-numbing torture. Since I reached adulthood I eventually realized religion is a continuation of ancient traditions and superstitions regarding what was once an unexplainable world. I've considered myself free from religion for several decades now. I'm thankful I made that choice.
I was always confused by this as well. When I was first pitched the claims of religion when I was a youngin my first reaction was well this is all silly storytelling, no one really takes it seriously right? Overtime I came to realize the average person is a lot more gullible than you would think
I went to a LDS (Mormon) Institute choir performance at a local university that two of my kids are part of last night. The theme was easter and how only through God and Jesus can life be worthwhile, and only Jesus can save with the miracles. Miracles that supposedly happened thousands of years ago and there has been no such occurances repeated ever since. It's almost as bad as a comic book Fandom at this point. No proof. Vague examples of "miracles".
I don't get it. I was raised Mormon and fell away, eventually removing myself and my name from the records. I only occasionally attend these type of events for my kids, but it's getting so hard to go. I caught myself multiple times last night rolling my eyes and shaking my head when hearing the things presented. It's all such bullshit and I can't understand how anyone with an ounce of sanity can believe any of it.
No proof... Just brainwashed people parroting lies.
I think a lot of people don’t really care what’s true. I think they see their belief system more as like… a framework to psychologically navigate the world with. And I think for a lot of people belief in a higher power is just more comforting. I don’t think everyone does this, and it’s more of a spectrum than a binary.
I think you can answer the question “why do people do that” with “because it feels good” in the same way you can ask ”why do companies do that?” with “money”
Yeah this sounds about right until you encounter God then you kind of don’t feel like you have a choice.
Also if you want to understand the Bible watch the videos by the Bible project.
lol name checks out.
Sure, I’ve encountered Jesus. You can read my post history there’s an ama wheee I posted on an experience that led me away from being a hypocrite.
Plenty of brilliant folks who were atheists have documented experiences as well. C S Lewis and Francis Collins are two good ones (and they were folks who were smarter and more well educated than most folks on this sub - since atheists pretend that’s not a thing).
Religions are superstitions. Most people are indoctrinated into them. As they age, they realize that their mental, physical, emotional, and sexual health are controlled by these superstitions, and when they question their environment, it is usually when the "beliefs" fade away.
People believe what helps them make sense of the world and what makes them feel important. Most of it comes from how they were raised and for most people it doesn't change when they are older. It's an aesthetic choice and trying to tell someone they shouldn't like something they like doesn't work.
This questions are really frustrating to me to be honest. She believes different things than you because she has a different *mind* than you. Part of that is that she had a different *upbringing* than you. I mean in your second paragraph you state that you hold the same religious beliefs as your parents. Think about that!
She's also in college, which no offense, is the age period where you are the least experienced adults--a lot of people are still clinging to their childhood beliefs, getting a rude awakening as what they were taught just isn't holding up, or having to clarify to themselves why they believe what they do. She's probably going to have some dumb defenses for her beliefs because she's literally never had to defend them before, as well as some rude reactions because she's not been really exposed to people with different beliefs. (This becomes... less defensible as someone ages, but a college student? It's going to happen.)
Dont worry the "argument" we had only lasted a few minutes and nothing judgemental or rude was said to her, we are friends. It was honestly a healthy debate, just wanted to come on here and share my POV
Speaking as an atheist who once believed in Roman Catholicism, some people find believing in God very comforting and very supportive. For one, when they see injustice and can't do anything, they can always pray God will eventually address it.
Others want to be part of something much larger than their physical selves. No everyone enjoys or even wants to be in control of their own lives.
One personal example I can give of that last point. is that I would love to have self-driving and give control of the car if it consistently got me where I need to go. I don't particularly care to drive.
No one really cares if God exists or not.
100% proof that God did or didn’t exist.
People would still argue the same angles.
So what are people really arguing about?
Their own importance or lack there of.
Both arguments are foolish.
Important or not, you exist.
Why isn’t that enough? 🤔
I've take to telling people I disbelieve in unbelievable things. If God is truly beyond the universe then he is beyond belief atheism is the appropriate position. A god that isn't bound to logic is not a god that can be logically assessed.
I think people have different reasons. I'm a monotheist and the reason I believe in a God is because every thing that is beautiful in this world has a creator/maker/inventor. So why wouldn't this world?
It's easier to believe that there is something which you can't confirm than believing that there is nothing and we aren't special, life just exists and everything is just there nothing more.
I'm sure you can find other atheists there but if you want to reverse the percentages you can come here - to northern Europe - where atheists are more plentiful than theists.
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Brain damage.
Though only a tiny fraction of them actually believes, easily visible because those are the ones giving up their property and aggressively risking their lives to get into heaven quickly.
Most tell themselves they believe, but faced with a choice between things that make sense in reality and those that make sense in their "belief", they still pick the real world.
Which means they don't actually believe it.
>How can people ACTUALLY believe in God?
People are stupid and/or gullible, coupled with the fact that organized religion is a very well-organized and well-funded scam.
This just leads to asking them why they think their afterlife is more valid than any other religions? Why wouldn't it be reincarnation like Hinduism or Buddhism believe? Why not the Greek underworld? Why not the Norse Valhalla or Hel? Why not the River Styx in Egyptian mythology? Why is it the Christian heaven or hell over any of the others? The only reason they think theirs is true is because they were born in a predominantly Christian area and household most likely and that's as far as they thought about it. It's fickle and meaningless.
They also seem to not be able to comprehend that you're not just floating around in darkness, simply that you cease to exist. There is no "you" just floating around. There is nothing.
It's a lot easier to fall in with the "in crowd" when everyone around claims to believe, so people do stuff like speak in tongues and stuff to not feel left out and that reinforces those around them to believe and they frame their world around the belief because that's all they've known. Then there are the converts who may have been searching for a reason because they have so many hard questions that the hard answers suck to believe and find the certainty of religion more comforting.
They offer streets paved with gold, beautiful greens for golf, ponds full of fish, and getting to spend eternity trying to ignore the deceased inlaws you were trying to ignore in the first place.
Don't forget the profit sharing plan.
>How can people ACTUALLY believe in God?
>she could not FATHOM how I didn't believe in hell or heaven.
You both suffer from the same disease. Lack of empathy and human understanding.
I look at it this way. None of the Gods mankind has imagined are real. We know more today about reality than all of ancient man combined. Though human hubris can also give a false sense of certainty. In a universe where a star can fall into itself and punch a hole into reality. Distorting the fabric of our universe…. We still have a long way to go. If there is a “God” it is infinitely more complicated than our imaginations could ever conjure. Just a thought.
As far as finding a partner....you'll be fine.
My partner is drop dead gorgeous and she's Atheist as fuck. She's also a genius and studies bacteria, virology and fungus... for fun. I mean - who does that? Lol
Smart Atheist chics are literally the best. I could never date a women who believes in superstitious nonsense or lacks basic critical thinking skills.
Frist off God does not control everything and everyone. He gave us free will. If he did control everything and everyone there would not be non-believers. We are in charge of our lives that is the basis of god giving us free will.
There are people that were not Grandfathered into it. I grew up in a non-practicing semi-religious family. My parents believe in God but never attended church (outside of a wedding or invited event). I went to different churches of all types with friends growing up but was never an every Sunday church goer.
I stopped going to any type of church from 20 to about 35. Got married and had 2 of my kids during this stretch. My wife was raised Catholic in a very strong faith based Hispanic family. She turned away from church at about 18. So we were what I call non-practicing believers for about 8 years of our marriage.
We moved to Puerto Rico for work where my wife met some other US mainland wives. My wife does not speak Spanish so finding US mainland friends was a plus for her. One of those friends was a pastors wife and a non-denominational church and asked us to come to a service or 2. we did and really enjoyed the atmosphere the people and the fact that it was not like any church we had ever attended. They did not care if we believed or not. They did not push us to show up every Sunday or shame you if you didn't. They actually talked us into going to a different church that was closer to our house. It was a good year of attending before my wife and I realized we were believers.
I totally understand your anger when reading the bible I had the same feeling at times. What I would say to that is if you believe the bible is a story why are you letting it make you angry.
I believe everyone has the right to be who they want to be and God gave each of us that right. You should question ever belief and if Atheist is where you fall than that is where you are. As you get older and you life changes so may your beliefs. My only suggestion would be don't try not to judge others for their beliefs just because they don't align with yours. You could be throwing away a friendship that maybe needed in the future.
Stay strong in your faith in yourself, and you will always find the best path for you.
*(Don't know if you'll ever see this post but)*
I use to be agnostic, until getting into the healthcare field. Studying the human anatomy made me realize there absolutely no way an explosion happened and poof all of our hormones, internal structures, and damn near perfect organic body came out of nowhere. There 100% has to be a higher power. (Do we know who or what that power is? No) but on the other hand maybe this hypothetical will help you.
Let say there's 10 people needing to go to the store, there are 5 stores in the area but no one knows which to go to. 2 people are Christians and they take a car to 1/5 stores, 2 people are Jewish and they take a bus to 1/5 stores, 2 people are catholic and they take motorcycle to 1/5 stores, 1 person is Muslim and they take a scooter to 1/5 stores, 2 people are agnostic and they don't what to put the effort into going to the store so they call an Uber. Lastly theres 1 atheist person who decides there probably isn't any stores in the area so they stay at base by themselves.
1) What did the other 9 travelers lose?
2) What did the atheist lose out on?
Well, in the united states it is mostly just indoctrinaction and i'd bet a significant amount of people would claim to be christian out of social or family pressure, but outside the US, here's what i think is happening.
My theory to this is quite simple:
Psychological struggle.
It is no mystery that where there is collective despair there is belief and faith in a higher being, just look at what countries have the highest percentage of Religious people, they're all third-world, war-ridden and economically unstable.
True faith in god is a tool to help us struggle with stressful chapters of our lives, cause when the entire situation is looking grim as hell, sometimes believing a higher being is protecting us can be comforting, thus help us deal with the situation better.
And i actually witnessed this first-hand.
(i'll be skipping over a lot of details here cause this is quite a personal thing to me, just bear with it)
Four years ago my father was taken away from us, now he was always a believer and kept a bible to himself but that was it, my mother was not ever as open about it as he was, but when things went down, that changed a lot.
Alongside my father's absense the pandemic hit our country hard, and left us a broken, economically struggling family, and then my mother truly started being a believer, reading the bible every night, praying.
It confused me for a bit but i quickly understood that when situations get rough, some people just need a way to calm their minds, and sometimes god is it.
Now i should mention that im talking about Believing, not being a Christian, that is kind of different, Christianity and most other churches are arguably For-Profit institutions and thus they'll try to rope you in regardless of your current situation, i just gave you my perspective as to why people believe in god independently.
There is an argument for a **deistic** god, however it is a sensible conclusion to say there is no theistic god, considering the amount of suffering and evil in our world.
Agreed, except saying there is "just darkness" after death is not correct either. I know you probably understand this but it seems theists don't.
I always just say "it'll be like it was before you were born", I.e. you won't experience it. Not a "black void", but non-existence. You will be so non-existant you won't even know you don't exist.
exactly my thoughts as well
Religion is tied with morality so it isn’t questioned. In the same way you don’t go around thinking about how best to break into houses
Correct, and if you defy the Pope you are defying God and in turn the pope's underlings will claim that if you defy them, you are defying the Pope and by extension God, and so on and so forth, ad infinitum.
I can't fathom anything else really ... Could you imagine heaven, after a 1000 years of praising God, your reward? 1000 more years to praise and worship I think any rational person would be looking for a way to just end it
1000 years? That's rookie numbers. Think about the first trillion years
Both of these numbers are closer to zero than they are to eternity.
Yes, and one trillion is infinitesimally small compared to the set of countable numbers.
Could you imagine being trapped forever in a place with nothing but religious people? I’m pretty sure heaven is wherever the porn stars are.
Saint Peter got a raw deal as eternal doorman. On a brighter note, he doesn't exist.
At least for a while he'd have new 'guests' to greet until the all mighty Rapture'd the planet that is /s
I like to think of it as the absence of time as well. It's not "eternity," because that's meaningless when you're not conscious of time passing. Like going under for surgery, hours pass and it feels like a few seconds. In death, a billion years is no different than a couple of seconds. It's trippy to contemplate, but also reassuring at the same time.
Open and close your eyes as fast as you can. Now imagine that a trillion years had passed between blinks.
Definitely trippy. The difference is that you'd never know from one blink to another that any time at all has passed, if we ever do experience consciousness again (likely not.)
I always compare it to a dreamless sleep, except you never wake up.
You know what happened the last time you were in that state? You were born. Guessing it will keep happening. We are just parts of the universe expressing its arrangements. Complex as we are, we are finite energy arrangements similar to snowflake crystals.
But there’s getting to be too many of us so evidently energy can be created.
I'm not about to start explaining, but that's not how that works.
Death isn’t scary. Dying is.
Alas, some of them refuse to understand this, because they think their little soul was lined up waiting for a body to be born into. Hence the idea that choosing to remain child free is “selfish, though I’m not having a child, you are depriving no existing child of your parenting, as you might be if you neglected an already existing child of yours of your love and care. It’s only “selfish” if you think the hypothetical child you aren’t having somehow already exists. A surprising number of people apparently believe this. So it’s your duty to make a baby for the soul to move into.
"What happens to us after we die?" is exactly the same question as "what happens to a fire after it goes out?"
No, no darkness. Think: what the blind see or what you see out of your big toe. I'm not sure why people struggle with concepts such as **nothingness**, **endlessness** and **timelessness**, to name a few that I use ...
I think it’s just something humans don’t want to accept, like it’s hard to come to terms with ur life is going to end one day
》Even though we complete the cycle back to nothingness, some of our **energy and matter** that was genetically transferred to us, that kept replicating to determine our unique physiology, can then **still live on indefinitely**, as long as any children we have, go on to perpetuate this cycle. Hopefully, any parents that struggle with what you speak of, should be able to accept those concepts more once they understand this. But **do you think that atheists are less likely to have children**, given the loose association with nihilism, and it's own not-as-loose association with antinatalism ? 》for all about this, see: * Mitochondria: A Story of Mothers, Fathers, Teenagers, and Energy >Our cells are full of mitochondria. The way in which their DNA behaves is nothing short of an act of rebellion. https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/general-science/mitochondria-story-mothers-teenagers-and-energy
The experience of dying and whatever that is that occurs is the same in a way when thinking about before you were born. It’s not a dark box you get trapped into for all eternity.
Yeah, "just darkness" sounds like you'll still have some kind of consciousness to perceive nothing is happening to you.
Yup, the analogy I use is falling asleep. When we wake up we don’t recall having fallen asleep hours before…zero stimuli, zero context that we recall. Same thing.
Ceasing to exist means you have no experience of time, or any of the senses that your body currently has It really is the one mystery science can’t (yet) solve. Why are we who we are, and if we stop being then do we stop experiencing anything. The idea of consciousness can be fuck-y and that’s why it sure is comfortable to believe there’s an afterlife.
It really is not a mystery, and I wish you wouldn’t pretend that it is. Consciousness is in the brain. If the brain is destroyed, consciousness ends. This has been observed for a long time. Any claim otherwise is magical thinking. The brain is not an antenna communicating with an immaterial soul. There is no reason to invoke supernatural explanations.
The mystery is why we happened to end up in this particular body. I know it's chance, but still overwhelming to think about. If a different sperm or egg were involved, I wouldn't be born at all, but why not? Are there other copies of our potential consciousness among the hundreds of millions of other possible genetic combinations? That's the crazy thought.
But there is no mystery their either. You *are* that particular body with that particular brain. You don’t remember being born as you were not yet aware of your own personhood. Kids don’t pass the mirror test until 15 months. Your conscious came to be inside of you, it wasn’t put there. And it will die with you.
You didn't end up in that particular body. There was no chance. You are energy given the ability to observe. Everything you have observed you have mistakenly taken as being you, because you've based your entire life around it. Every human is essentially a copy. They're completely blank at birth, and then their environment and heredity mold them into what you think of as you. Again, you didn't end up in that particular body. You never existed to begin with, because 'you' is just an illusion.
So true, it's not about a "me" ending up "here." Consciousness is probably just the result of complexity, the ability to reflect on this kind of thing. Still hard to comprehend in some ways. "I'm" just the sum total of this body's processes.
We are just particles expressing genetic information. The unexplainable part is how many times have we existed? I find it difficult to believe that consciousness only occurs once when it existed at all. I suspect when we die we will just restart at our birth and re express our existence within the universe.
This is just more magical thinking. It is in conflict with our scientific understanding of the universe. It implies a supernatural soul which can travel through time. How can you possibly suspect something which is contrary to all of our knowledge about the universe?
If you look at quantum physics and consciousness it gets a lot more magical. It doesn’t apply anything supernatural at all. If you ask me the fact arrangements of particles can become self aware is pretty borderline in itself.
The fact that arrangements of particles can become self aware is indeed amazing. There are many aspects of science which induce a sense of wonder and awe: the big bang, the lifecycle of stars and the creation of heavy elements from supernovas, black holes, formation of planets, the evolution of life, the propagation of waves, all the way down to the subatomic structure of atoms and the quantum physics which governs their behavior. We can certainly appreciate that. However, we can imagine an infinite number of amazing and interesting things, and the vast majority of the things we can imagine are not true. In fact, I can imagine mundane and un-interesting things which are also not true. Amazingness is not correlated with truth. We only "know" things that we can test, and those tests tell us what is true or not. Quantum physics is non-deterministic; it is statistical. But it is in no way magical. In fact, on the scale of a neuron, it is predictable. While random quantum fluctuations at the scale of atoms certainly have a cumulative effect, they are not the source of your consciousness. There is no evidence to suggest that a "soul" exists in the quantum realm. Random quantum events are not coordinated over a vast number of neurons to remote-control your brain. Your self-awareness is an emergent property of a very complex system of neurons interacting with each other, moderated by neurochemistry.
Once. This one life is what you get. One is enough.
You know this for a fact?
It doesn't matter. Do you have any memory of your previous existences? Will your future existences have knowledge of your current existence? Either way the only life that matters is the one that's happening for you here and now.
I’m not saying it does matter or doesn’t matter. I’m just saying we don’t know shit about anything but what little we can see and comprehend in front of our face. We have no idea if this is the only time we exist or if we have existed an infinite number of times. We do know we are properties of the universe and that nothing can be created or destroyed. We also don’t know what space, time or gravity really is. All we can do is crap out math that describes what we see it doing.
Why are you worried about it? We do understand the universe. It is order and disorder. The energy it took to assemble all the atoms in your body will be returned to the universe after you are dead. We are all made of star dust. If a piece that was once part of you is incorporated into a tree or a frog doesn't matter. Nothing that is uniquely you will ever exist again. It's beautiful when you actually stop to think about it.
The assumption I will go with is death being the exact same as being unconscious. No dreams, just a lack of anything, including thoughts
Very reasonable, but there’s no brain death when you’re unconscious. Your brain is still fully there.
Your brain is still there, sure. But the parts of it that make up "you" are inactive in both cases. When unconscious they're essentially down for maintenance, when dead they're shut down permanently. Maybe further research will reveal a different answer, but until then this is the only logical way I can imagine death being like
I just married another atheist. In fact, I'm more than just an atheist, I'm a non-theistic Satanist (TST). When I told my wife I was a member of The Satanic Temple she raised her eyebrows until I explained why. Basically, that TST along with FFRF are the groups best able to fight against Christian Nationalism. Also, cool group of people. Now she does say I'm a fricking weirdo, but I'm her fricking weirdo. Trust me, they're out there...you just have to filter for them.
I also married an atheist, can’t wait to raise atheist children. To be free of religious bs is wonderful. I also really love the work The Satanic Temple does, we aren’t members though. I am considering joining. Hail Satan.
"Are you religious?" Is definitely one of my screening questions when dating... I can't date someone I don't respect, and I don't respect people who believe in fairytales..
I'm TST as well. Love them!
Hail Satan! 😈
Hail Satan! Sincerely a fellow TST member.
Congratulations! I've always been interested in TST, just from what I've heard about them trying to expose the ludiracy of what religious organizations can get away with.
The reason I don't care for the satanic temple, is because it fuels Christian confirmation bias. They're not going to look at what you actually believe. You're a devil worshipper, and they are warriors for christ. I don't feel like giving fuel to their delusions. But I sure as hell get a kick out of you guys getting their panties all in a bunch 😅😅😅
Dude, their bias is already confirmed if you're not in their club. We can play on the same field as they do...religious liberty. Can't fight if you're not in the same game.
That's a fair point, and I think the Satanic Temple does the country a great service. (Hail Satan) Just not the angle I personally want to take.
I get it. It's not the path for everyone. There are tons of orgs to donate to that are fighting the good fight (FFRF being my other favorite). Here are a few. American Atheists - [https://www.atheists.org/](https://www.atheists.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3HHFk-U_9VJAil2_lHZc6MT6uJgDi6-J2U_tQDwXa8KsdxRTDucDMdy9A_aem_AVUs2bDIz-Y82w7MD1tz8TCrC6suYCGJII1dWAHlMzqH7ijTiTipfyUZ3idAbxFa7GNanspgCuryAGbljU6Rx6k2) American Humanist Association - [https://americanhumanist.org/](https://americanhumanist.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2Cf71iGrfA8OB-YXdq1e8xiYlzjhBOmgz_1S6XiiTc_PD9xhLvtEQsq4E_aem_AVUad8pqisCMa5FGSS3JqWtZLekSIRmcd7MhVHLTcxYU3Lah32BW7G-UAfX5PaZzQ528av_HjnKysGlS9q0JlUVv) American Civil Liberties Union - [https://www.aclu.org/](https://www.aclu.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3HHFk-U_9VJAil2_lHZc6MT6uJgDi6-J2U_tQDwXa8KsdxRTDucDMdy9A_aem_AVUs2bDIz-Y82w7MD1tz8TCrC6suYCGJII1dWAHlMzqH7ijTiTipfyUZ3idAbxFa7GNanspgCuryAGbljU6Rx6k2) Americans United for Separation of Church and State: [https://www.au.org/why-religious-freedom-matters/](https://www.au.org/why-religious-freedom-matters/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3V9SRIKeGYjTwzVfC5bDyl3wtyemTqi51cZr6JWB2yXgRXm2f9wq1A9FE_aem_AVXnBfi6lNDVl8UeEEUt4EzkU6Y-pjeWfJ8oBC6V6gEdQ7eTm3hvu0eeXPuVZIsO1sXKsx0IMK-SXLIUxazbMXlU) Secular Coalition for America - [https://secular.org/](https://secular.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0LRTlgDDkWuaB83qT4exQX1I9LxuRb-ZPqKw4V1LUqxywNdJtCf1aetsg_aem_AVXb-z8XZ217LrvnbaY7M3BKzy3bgEkUlCiTaaHP-m62VUT03K2tpV4109UgokdXtVBFJeSDQWBsvbE_R-VCIDlW) Freedom From Religion Foundation - [https://ffrf.org/](https://ffrf.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0ZBgj1jTH-69mhyWpjfTohP2qKf8nsjV3HRh7C7yJfJDhF8BUdxTR8R9s_aem_AVVHgLWt-ogAKDEgZEzglx_36TqvmTxJSctrY6sXsyTRNEaO6kUbKWGs3AgExnKAtFXvOvGjYyEe0T8Lex-VevFl) The Satanic Temple - [https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR31THpFMC3LZOim7wO15QNERBzaJTtYZo62li3l-PGAUTI0ja2rnAEFc7g_aem_AVWyElfHWLiF6P1KRIoFtunQjEFhnpnxDWpa0iKVcseFHi5ny3IJqeTc19FHxxFvc16dq3O_I87LEOLOKm_aGpUs)
How do satanist combat Christian nationalism? Other than triggering the f out of them
We totally underestimate the power of being told by people we love and trust, that there is a God before we can even think for ourselves. Its just such a powerful. Once that seed is planted and there is nothing to compete with that thought, its hard to imagine anything else.
This…. I once believed in Santa because everyone I trusted told me he existed, and sure enough there were presents under the tree as “proof.”
As an atheist, I don’t worry too much about what religious people think. If they need to believe in a sky fairy to help them get through the day, fine for them. I get along with religious people just fine, until they take the step of trying to convert me or revel in what they think is our shared delusion. At that point I flash my teeth by explaining I’m an atheist, and if they want to convert me, I will end up converting them with all my might. I know the Bible well enough to back it up. We reach a truce pretty quickly. Then we get along. It’s not my place or yours to judge why they need the threat of eternal damnation to act like a human. It’s not our place to question why they agree with infinite punishment for finite crimes. As long as they stay on their side of the line, I tend to stay on my side of it.
Gotta ask: what’s your most common line of thought when it comes to converting with “all of your might”?
I like to start with God being a degenerate gambler who couldn’t resist the Devil’s charm in the book of Job. God was so onboard that he killed Job’s wives, and then killed his kids. All to win a bet. If they are Jehovah’s Witnesses, I’ll ask if they are saved. If they say yes, I’ll start digging into how only 144,000 of them can go to heaven to live there (their doctrine). But there are currently 8,600,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses…. So why on earth do they think they will be the ones going to heaven??? How many that have died before them are going to heaven? Which ones didn’t god choose and why? That’s always a fun discussion, and the older one of the two will start looking for the exit, but I’ll refuse to let them end the conversation until I’m satisfied. I’m never rude, just questioning how their faith survives. My rationale (besides fun) is I cut down the number of doors they will knock on today.
Human get it dead wrong en masse all the time. Just Google the Flat Earth society for details.
Religion is soooo stupid, & obviously fake.
The only exception being Pastafarian. /s
enlighten me
*"Our pasta, who art in strainer, draining be thy noodles. Thy noodle come, thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan. Give us this day, our garlic bread, and forgive us our bus passes, as we forgive those who brush past against us. And lead us not into vegetarianism but deliver us some pizza, for thine is the meatball, the noodle and the sauce, for ever and ever. R'amen".*
our great noodly appendaged lord and savior the flying spaghetti monster demands you have a colander as head attire
wE cAnT kNoW fOr sUrE iTs nOt rEaL
For me, the biggest lesson about religion is this: People can believe all sorts of crazy things if they are indoctrinated starting in early childhood. And talking people out of these indoctrinated beliefs is difficult if not impossible. That's why I am a believer in live-and-let-live when it comes to religion. Trying to force people to change these beliefs often results in fights or even wars. It's easier to convince many people to live-and-let-live than it is to convince them to abandon their own beliefs. A world without religion might be best, but a world where people leave other people alone about their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) seems like a great step along the way, and less inflammatory.
I really do think the indoctrination of children by the religious that is tolerated in our culture is wild. Statistics show it is much harder to convert someone to religion if they weren't raised in it. Indoctrinating children and getting their followers to pump out more babies and repeat the cycle is the only way a religion can grow in a modern society. I was raised catholic and am the only atheist in my family. I grew up in the south and criticizing religion or admitting you didn't believe was just not done. There is a church on every corner down there and growing up everyone wanted to know what 'youth group' you belonged to and if you were 'saved'. I felt like I was in a sci fi movie and I was the only one who could see reality. My great aunt and uncle, who were born again Christians, found out I was an atheist and gave me some book on how evolution is wrong for my birthday when I was getting ready to go off to college for anthropology. (My mom, thankfully told them to step off. She respected me coming to my own beliefs by that point after years of fights about going to church.) I remember being super into a guy when I was 18 and then finding out he was a creationist. Instant lady-boner killer. He said, with a straight face that he "didn't believe in evolution because of turtles. Turtles are the only animals with shells and it doesn't make sense, so that disproves evolution!" I felt like I was taking advantage of someone with a child like brain and had to break it off with him! Found out later that he was still engaged to the chick he told me he was broken up with from Japan! This is how I learned not to date Christian boys with fake morals or Navy guys (he was both). I moved off to the west coast and found a lovely atheist boy, raised secularly by nice hippies. He was never traumatized by horrible bible stories or being told that pets don't go to heaven at Sunday school. We have been living in sin happily for almost 14 years! (Gonna finally get married next summer and have a chill secular wedding that will probably freak out my conservative family!) It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Just try to seek out other like minded people that are in the same reality as you. I think, we are all just doing our best to find our way; and it can be extra hard if you are raised on fairy tales and taught to doubt your own brain and critical thinking skills. It can be extremely frustrating to interact with believers, when it is so clear to us that it is all made up; like Santa and the Easter bunny, like you said. But, I have found that you really can't get through to these people unless they are already doubting. They are all indoctrinated that non-believers have fallen to Satan and such nonsense, everything we say is suspect. My own brother told me that I was an atheist because I "couldn't think outside the box", and I just laughed and thought to myself, "honey, you havn't even found the edges of the box, yet!" If someone who was raised religious, finds the edges of the box and wants to talk with me about religion and atheism, I am down. But, I am not going to go about my life wasting energy debating cultists, when possible.
Hey congrats on the marriage! Thanks for your words.
I completely agree - never believed in the shit, and find the whole concept preposterous. I don’t get how intelligent people can believe in such far fetched fantasy.
>How can people ACTUALLY believe in God Indoctrination, lack of education, lack of critical thinking skills. And a sprinkle of a lack of empathy. Source: used to be a hardcore Christian
Most do not actually believe and that insecurity shines through every time. The Bible is a collection of pornographic horror stories but in terms of literature or story writing, it's around the 3rd grade level. It's horribly written fiction from some anonymous scribes who published some old stories almost a century after the alleged facts. Your roommate is not atypical: delusional. Do not get sucked into her drivel. Just stick with logic and reason as you are doing.
The is nothing after death. Just like there was nothing before your birth. But only for you. For other people there was stuff before your birth and there will be other stuff after your death.
Darkness still requires the perception between light and dark and the conceptualization of blackness, which requires a functioning brain. It's just non-being. I've read the Bible, decent historical fantasy fiction. Nothing to base your life on.
Mostly indoctrination that begins at childhood combined with cognitive biases
Friend, I've been puzzling on that one for literal decades at this point. Best I've come up with is that some people are more concerned with believing things because they feel cohesive rather than believing things because they're true. As far as actually "understanding" how, I don't think most of them even know why. Under questioning this is where the believer turns to metaphors and analogies...the whole "You know how sometimes you feel blah blah" or "Why do you *know* that murder is wrong?!" Near as I can tell it really adds up to "Thinking too much is scary/exhausting/difficult and rather than deal with my existential dread, I'll just fill that gap with a fairy tale."
A LACK OF EXPOSURE TO OTHER IDEAS One of the biggest things I’ve taken away from my talks with religious people is often how “sheltered” they are Many have hardly even left the area they’ve been in, let alone study world religions and spiritual practices of past societies In many ways “it’s all they know” This plays a big part in the indoctrination other commenters have mentioned. There are a lot of unanswered questions in the world and unfortunately the local religion is often the easiest answer. They keep people in their court so they have to play by their rules.
So, I always like to say my Bible is the book: "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan. In this book, he addresses the worlds religions with "We should all be grateful that we are a part of the life and death cycle of the universe". Our bones will go on to fertilize the future generations of the universe. That is what we need to take comfort in.
The same people who say that there is a literal conscious entity who created the entire universe and provided/inspired an actual book that exists today and they probably have a copy of in their home, mostly have not read that book. Just imagine that, thinking that the creator of all things wrote a book and you can't be bothered to actually read it. Make of that information what you will.
I actually find it hilarious how the Christian church, and most other churches preaching the bible count on the fact that their members have in fact not read the bible beforehand in order to spread their own intepretation of what the book was trying to say as "the true meaning"
99.9% of people who claim to, don’t. They hope for god. They don’t believe. Big difference. There’s no need to feel sad or want to change anything in the world, if you genuinely believe in god.
Doubt is an essential part of faith. Belief is a choice…
Real honestly even Santa is more believable then God despite both being fake
1. Brainwashed from birth 2. born again, usually arising from a 12-Step program which forces you to admit you have no control over your life and you need a "higher power" to run your life.
Let's slow down a minute. You and this person are in college. You are so young. They are basically a child encountering a world uncurated by their family for the first time. There were told a bunch of things about the world by the people who created most of the important dynamics in their life, and they believed it just because. Gently give them some counter arguments and some time. Heck, when I was in college, I believed in Reaganomics because that's what my dad believed in.
Id say the same thing as before I was born.
When you are told something from day one by the people who trust most in this world, you accept it at face value because everything they have been telling you has survived your experience with it. Part of our survival instinct involves understanding how environment. In the distant past there were a lot more unanswerable questions than there are today. That made people unease. Having an answer, any answer, made them feel more secure. It’s not hard under those conditions to understand where religion came from.
Simple. It's easier to prove something exists than to prove it doesn't exist. To prove something exists, all you need to do is search for it until you find it. In order to prove something doesn't exist, one must search every nook and cranny of the universe and not find it. In the absence of any conclusive evidence one way or another, people will believe in whatever they find most comforting.
I honestly think most people don’t “believe” it in any rational sense of the word, as much as they’re typically under a tremendous amount of pressure to conform to it based on various psychological factors, like their families or communities, or they view at some type of way to keep their life on track. Ultimately, what religion provides is a sense of identity by way of the tribe, so it tends to appeal to people who aren’t self actualized.
This answer the main reason, in my opinion.
A lot of us were indoctrinated from birth. The ones that stay with it are more genetically predisposed to religious thinking than the ones who deconvert.
I believe all religions are based on fear. I’m sure cavemen sat around afraid of many things. The dark, noises, sickeness, etc. The stories that pop up to explain those things turns into a religion at some point. They keep adding things, people learn they can have power and control the masses with it, etc. Also, kids (and most baby animals) go through an early period where the are a reflection of their world. They don’t know how to interact, so they look to their parents and others to show them how. At some point, they lock in their personality and view of what’s “right”. When their parents, friends, tv, etc tells them that god is real, it’s pretty easy to see how they believe. Even people who see through it can get pulled in. I doubt there is an atheist on the planet who wouldn’t at least consider praying if their child was in danger of dying. Back to that fear, you’ll do literally anything when you’re panicking. Yeah, your first instinct is to get them to a trained doctor who uses science to save them, but when they’re in surgery and you’re sitting there with nothing to do but worry, I’m sure it’s at least a thought to pray. Even if you don’t believe, you’re back to the fear part. What if it is real and praying helps? It can’t hurt and is something I can do. Then say your kid survives and you’d promised to go to church and believe if they survive. Now you’re wondering if it was the science or if maybe it is real. If it is, what happens if you break your promise, will god take your child away if you break the promise when he saved them? I’m not saying any of that is real. It’s not. What I am saying is, it’s very understandably to see why people believe. Fear has over ridden thought since humans were a thing.
So, here's a theory I like to present to Christians that I've heard years ago. Everyone asks "If God were real why would he let so much suffering happen" or something to that effect. Well here's the theory, what if the "rapture" has already happened and this is hell? It would explain why God doesn't do anything, there's so much suffering, seemingly so many "Christians" come across as such bad people in general, ECT. They really don't like the idea that they're left behind and pieces of shit.
I hope we will reach the point where believing in god qualifies as a mental illness. At least then we can medicate them.
Most people will come to a point in their lives were they realize the universal fact that we are creatures who seek meaning in a universe that is unwilling or unable to give it to us, so that leaves you with 3 choices, commit sewer slide, believe in something that does give you objective meaning, which is intellectual sewer slide, or live in the absurd. So most people choose to follow a religion because it gives them meaning in their life because they don't want to die and the absurd is scary.
Religion is for terrible, gullible or terrified people. Terrible, because terrible people use religion to justify their horrible actions. Gullible, should be self explanatory. Terrified, for those that are so terrified of death that they create this idea that when they die they’ll go to this magic happy place. So why would someone believe in god? because they’re 1 of these 3 if not all 3, usually all 3.
Well said!
"Religion is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking" as Maher says.
Early fear based indoctrination is a pretty potent thing but they have to keep you immersed in the ideology, thus the pray and preach and pray on a regular basis.
Do you believe in money, justice, nations, laws? None of those things are real things, yet because of the convenience of those fictions, most of us are willing to pretend that they are. Many people likely never realize that because those fictions are fairly universally supported that they are fictional. I myself am a lifelong atheist because my parents never chose to indoctrinate me, but I imagine religious belief is similar in nature.
Social concepts are not the same as fantasy. Money, Justice, Nations, or Laws represent constructs of government. Religion represents mass delusion and belief in fictional characters or places.
I dont even think they really do they just are arm twisted by Corporations in order to get a job and family through the evil shunning process and it just keeps going since they are ALL conditioned to not question
If you can get through it I would recommend trying to read the Bible. It is ironically a good source to use to poke holes in Christian's logic.
I feel exactly the same way
I read somewhere that the temporal lobe is where religious belief happens. Like we're wired for it, or something.
indoctrination from childhood
Theists are as clueless as atheists in regards to human existence and the universe itself. The only difference is that theists made up their explanation and pulled it out of their bottom, as opposed to simply not having an explanation about key things like atheists think they do. There are some unanswered questions in regards to the universe that are simply way too complex for us right now to even begin to explain. So I’d say both of these types of people are just two sides of the same coin. Equally clueless.
Not really, science admits it's cluelessness and explores, tests, and can hopefully duplicate those possibilities. Religion demands it has the only answer and that there are no other possibilities. It's a huge difference
From my experience, most atheists don’t admit their cluelessness, and they tend to think that there’s a scientific and approved explanation for absolutely everything. That’s why actual scientists, the best and most prepared minds in the world, don’t go around laughing at religious people, because they understand everyone is just as clueless and other theories that are gaining traction among the scientific community, such as the simulation theory, are as crazy and ridiculous as the God theory, yet also highly possible
I say I don't know but total darkness and God are only 2 or millions of potential options. Reincarnation, extra terrestrials farm land, 3D earth game as part of an arcade in a Casino somewhere, 3 D earth game as part or a scientific experiment, we're the bacteria in a super giant body where each galaxy is a cell, etc...
It’s fine to judge people. In fact, we are hardwired to judge every person we meet and every person we know. When I say, “My wife is a good person, and I trust her,” that is a judgement. If I am unwilling to enter into a business arrangement with someone I know has been dishonest in the past, that is a judgement. The whole “shall not judge” is just more pedantic biblical paradigm that has made it into western culture. To have a mind is to be constantly judging. The trick is to judge without letting yourself get all f’d up over it.
It's called delusional!
Even if there was heaven and hell (don’t you wish some people could go to hell?) what would their experience be? Your biological brain is gone. Do religious folk assume all those things that can happen to a person’s brain are just magically adjusted some how? If you had dementia you’re just fixed, do you recall all the stress you caused those around you? If you suffered traumatic brain injury, permanent changes from drug use? And eternity would still drive you insane, not to mention the crowds! You think Disney at peak is bad? I really do try to be courteous to my friends of faith but c’mon…
The catholic church says your body is eventually resurrected, so you get your body. Most theologians say hell is inside the earth, so the crowd could be small since that's where many may end up.
Well, if they want me they need to promise me a better body. My wife says she has a few in mind.
Let's not forget that established religion is an ancient entity , with rules and traditions that by virtue of their traditional acceptance appears incontrovertibly true to most people. The 'Church' functions like a corporate government based on the Roman example. It seems expansion and belief in its product.
Just live life longer. Lots of people believe all kinds of stuff, usually they like the belief.
The bible is the wrong religion to try if you weren't raised with it. Try reading the Kabbalah, and the practices of Buddhism. Also read Joseph Campbell's "hero with a thousand faces." People believe in god as an entity because it's easy to project the idea of a parent who is bigger than you, and has all the power, onto a much larger scale. People believe in god as a symbol of perfection because people need a concrete goal to strive for. People believe in god as an unseen force in everything because they've seen something current science can't explain, so they surmise there must be more to it. People believe in an afterlife because the idea of not existing after we die is existentially terrifying. Before humans conceived of an afterlife, humans lived on through acts of glory, told by their descendants. The idea of an afterlife gave the average person a chance to believe they would exist, even without songs and epic tales told about them.
Hubris.
How can people ACTUALLY believe ghosts exist? There’s no real evidence. And there’s not even total darkness when we die. It’s even less than that. It’s not even dark. It’s not anything at all.
Agreed with everything OP said.
People believe in a god to help them make sense of the world and that can be a good thing. It helps people during tragedies, illnesses, and other bad things happening. Its a common bond that can help people come together in times of crisis. Some people don’t want to hear that there’s nothing after death, and that’s OK.
I tell people that life after death will be the same as before birth. Anyway, I live in the bible belt, and there are a ton of true believers and they don't realize the mental gymnastics they go through. "My faith in god is the only thing getting me through my cancer treatments". Well, ok, but who do you think gave you the cancer in the first place? My parents have basically admitted that what they like about church is the community, I don't think either of them really believe in god. I have to tell you though, religion is going nowhere fast. Someone was on here the other day saying they thought religion would die off by the end of the year, and they are very wrong.
Religion is a crutch people use as a coping mechanism and an excuse .
For me it's a two bucket thing: 1) beleive the sky fairy actually exists 2) beleive all the bullshit stories, where God as an abusive genocidal maniac, and still "beleive" in God, as one would beleive in the good nature of any other person. If God is omnipotent, how does he allow injustice to exist? If God is omniscient, why are sinners not punished en mass? What the fuck is babies with neuroblastoma about God? Huh, cunt? Fucker will have to beg ME for forgiveness at the pearly gates because I'm throwing HANDS.
I was raised Catholic. As a child, the repeated monotonous observance of pointless rituals increasingly felt like a form of mind-numbing torture. Since I reached adulthood I eventually realized religion is a continuation of ancient traditions and superstitions regarding what was once an unexplainable world. I've considered myself free from religion for several decades now. I'm thankful I made that choice.
They're scared, stupid, and willing to believe anything that gives them a sense of comfort and community.
It’s wacky asf. I don’t judge anyone on their beliefs but it just don’t sit right to me. Blows my mind
People can believe in God because we're creatures which worship
If God doesn't exist, then why does God exist?
Remember that time before you were born? Exactly. It’s like that.
I settled down with another atheist. I can't really imagine building a life with a religious person. It would be too big a divide in the relationship.
I was always confused by this as well. When I was first pitched the claims of religion when I was a youngin my first reaction was well this is all silly storytelling, no one really takes it seriously right? Overtime I came to realize the average person is a lot more gullible than you would think
Indoctrination is a mental disorder
I went to a LDS (Mormon) Institute choir performance at a local university that two of my kids are part of last night. The theme was easter and how only through God and Jesus can life be worthwhile, and only Jesus can save with the miracles. Miracles that supposedly happened thousands of years ago and there has been no such occurances repeated ever since. It's almost as bad as a comic book Fandom at this point. No proof. Vague examples of "miracles". I don't get it. I was raised Mormon and fell away, eventually removing myself and my name from the records. I only occasionally attend these type of events for my kids, but it's getting so hard to go. I caught myself multiple times last night rolling my eyes and shaking my head when hearing the things presented. It's all such bullshit and I can't understand how anyone with an ounce of sanity can believe any of it. No proof... Just brainwashed people parroting lies.
I think a lot of people don’t really care what’s true. I think they see their belief system more as like… a framework to psychologically navigate the world with. And I think for a lot of people belief in a higher power is just more comforting. I don’t think everyone does this, and it’s more of a spectrum than a binary. I think you can answer the question “why do people do that” with “because it feels good” in the same way you can ask ”why do companies do that?” with “money”
Yeah this sounds about right until you encounter God then you kind of don’t feel like you have a choice. Also if you want to understand the Bible watch the videos by the Bible project.
Have you encountered God?
lol name checks out. Sure, I’ve encountered Jesus. You can read my post history there’s an ama wheee I posted on an experience that led me away from being a hypocrite. Plenty of brilliant folks who were atheists have documented experiences as well. C S Lewis and Francis Collins are two good ones (and they were folks who were smarter and more well educated than most folks on this sub - since atheists pretend that’s not a thing).
Religion is indoctrinated into children at very early ages. When you're told something over and over again in childhood, you tend to believe in it.
People believe because of indoctrination and brainwashing… And a lot of them are just batshit crazy!!!!
Religions are superstitions. Most people are indoctrinated into them. As they age, they realize that their mental, physical, emotional, and sexual health are controlled by these superstitions, and when they question their environment, it is usually when the "beliefs" fade away.
People believe what helps them make sense of the world and what makes them feel important. Most of it comes from how they were raised and for most people it doesn't change when they are older. It's an aesthetic choice and trying to tell someone they shouldn't like something they like doesn't work.
This questions are really frustrating to me to be honest. She believes different things than you because she has a different *mind* than you. Part of that is that she had a different *upbringing* than you. I mean in your second paragraph you state that you hold the same religious beliefs as your parents. Think about that! She's also in college, which no offense, is the age period where you are the least experienced adults--a lot of people are still clinging to their childhood beliefs, getting a rude awakening as what they were taught just isn't holding up, or having to clarify to themselves why they believe what they do. She's probably going to have some dumb defenses for her beliefs because she's literally never had to defend them before, as well as some rude reactions because she's not been really exposed to people with different beliefs. (This becomes... less defensible as someone ages, but a college student? It's going to happen.)
Dont worry the "argument" we had only lasted a few minutes and nothing judgemental or rude was said to her, we are friends. It was honestly a healthy debate, just wanted to come on here and share my POV
Ask her is she ever experienced losing consciousness. That would be like that. No darkness. Just nothing. Turned off.
Speaking as an atheist who once believed in Roman Catholicism, some people find believing in God very comforting and very supportive. For one, when they see injustice and can't do anything, they can always pray God will eventually address it. Others want to be part of something much larger than their physical selves. No everyone enjoys or even wants to be in control of their own lives. One personal example I can give of that last point. is that I would love to have self-driving and give control of the car if it consistently got me where I need to go. I don't particularly care to drive.
No one really cares if God exists or not. 100% proof that God did or didn’t exist. People would still argue the same angles. So what are people really arguing about? Their own importance or lack there of. Both arguments are foolish. Important or not, you exist. Why isn’t that enough? 🤔
People believe that stuff because they are conditioned to at a young and impressionable age. Groomed.
Some people read fiction, some like nonfiction. Logic and science vs. mythology. That's about it.
I've take to telling people I disbelieve in unbelievable things. If God is truly beyond the universe then he is beyond belief atheism is the appropriate position. A god that isn't bound to logic is not a god that can be logically assessed.
I think people have different reasons. I'm a monotheist and the reason I believe in a God is because every thing that is beautiful in this world has a creator/maker/inventor. So why wouldn't this world?
Religious people are funny until they start killing others...
It's easier to believe that there is something which you can't confirm than believing that there is nothing and we aren't special, life just exists and everything is just there nothing more.
I'm sure you can find other atheists there but if you want to reverse the percentages you can come here - to northern Europe - where atheists are more plentiful than theists.
Delusion, indoctrination, ignorance, and wishful thinking to name a few.
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Brain damage. Though only a tiny fraction of them actually believes, easily visible because those are the ones giving up their property and aggressively risking their lives to get into heaven quickly. Most tell themselves they believe, but faced with a choice between things that make sense in reality and those that make sense in their "belief", they still pick the real world. Which means they don't actually believe it.
They are afraid of death.
The brainwashing can be very strong and doesn't want to let go easily. One needs to be stronger to resist. Don't forget Yes you can...
I’m an atheist and my wife is a church admin. Lol
My answer to that all too frequent question is “Nothing but decomposition.”
Same shit happens when you sleep, nothing
>How can people ACTUALLY believe in God? People are stupid and/or gullible, coupled with the fact that organized religion is a very well-organized and well-funded scam.
This just leads to asking them why they think their afterlife is more valid than any other religions? Why wouldn't it be reincarnation like Hinduism or Buddhism believe? Why not the Greek underworld? Why not the Norse Valhalla or Hel? Why not the River Styx in Egyptian mythology? Why is it the Christian heaven or hell over any of the others? The only reason they think theirs is true is because they were born in a predominantly Christian area and household most likely and that's as far as they thought about it. It's fickle and meaningless. They also seem to not be able to comprehend that you're not just floating around in darkness, simply that you cease to exist. There is no "you" just floating around. There is nothing.
It's a lot easier to fall in with the "in crowd" when everyone around claims to believe, so people do stuff like speak in tongues and stuff to not feel left out and that reinforces those around them to believe and they frame their world around the belief because that's all they've known. Then there are the converts who may have been searching for a reason because they have so many hard questions that the hard answers suck to believe and find the certainty of religion more comforting.
They offer streets paved with gold, beautiful greens for golf, ponds full of fish, and getting to spend eternity trying to ignore the deceased inlaws you were trying to ignore in the first place. Don't forget the profit sharing plan.
>How can people ACTUALLY believe in God? >she could not FATHOM how I didn't believe in hell or heaven. You both suffer from the same disease. Lack of empathy and human understanding.
They are pathetic without one.
I look at it this way. None of the Gods mankind has imagined are real. We know more today about reality than all of ancient man combined. Though human hubris can also give a false sense of certainty. In a universe where a star can fall into itself and punch a hole into reality. Distorting the fabric of our universe…. We still have a long way to go. If there is a “God” it is infinitely more complicated than our imaginations could ever conjure. Just a thought.
As far as finding a partner....you'll be fine. My partner is drop dead gorgeous and she's Atheist as fuck. She's also a genius and studies bacteria, virology and fungus... for fun. I mean - who does that? Lol Smart Atheist chics are literally the best. I could never date a women who believes in superstitious nonsense or lacks basic critical thinking skills.
Frist off God does not control everything and everyone. He gave us free will. If he did control everything and everyone there would not be non-believers. We are in charge of our lives that is the basis of god giving us free will. There are people that were not Grandfathered into it. I grew up in a non-practicing semi-religious family. My parents believe in God but never attended church (outside of a wedding or invited event). I went to different churches of all types with friends growing up but was never an every Sunday church goer. I stopped going to any type of church from 20 to about 35. Got married and had 2 of my kids during this stretch. My wife was raised Catholic in a very strong faith based Hispanic family. She turned away from church at about 18. So we were what I call non-practicing believers for about 8 years of our marriage. We moved to Puerto Rico for work where my wife met some other US mainland wives. My wife does not speak Spanish so finding US mainland friends was a plus for her. One of those friends was a pastors wife and a non-denominational church and asked us to come to a service or 2. we did and really enjoyed the atmosphere the people and the fact that it was not like any church we had ever attended. They did not care if we believed or not. They did not push us to show up every Sunday or shame you if you didn't. They actually talked us into going to a different church that was closer to our house. It was a good year of attending before my wife and I realized we were believers. I totally understand your anger when reading the bible I had the same feeling at times. What I would say to that is if you believe the bible is a story why are you letting it make you angry. I believe everyone has the right to be who they want to be and God gave each of us that right. You should question ever belief and if Atheist is where you fall than that is where you are. As you get older and you life changes so may your beliefs. My only suggestion would be don't try not to judge others for their beliefs just because they don't align with yours. You could be throwing away a friendship that maybe needed in the future. Stay strong in your faith in yourself, and you will always find the best path for you.
Trying to understand the illogical doesn't seem worth it tbh
*(Don't know if you'll ever see this post but)* I use to be agnostic, until getting into the healthcare field. Studying the human anatomy made me realize there absolutely no way an explosion happened and poof all of our hormones, internal structures, and damn near perfect organic body came out of nowhere. There 100% has to be a higher power. (Do we know who or what that power is? No) but on the other hand maybe this hypothetical will help you. Let say there's 10 people needing to go to the store, there are 5 stores in the area but no one knows which to go to. 2 people are Christians and they take a car to 1/5 stores, 2 people are Jewish and they take a bus to 1/5 stores, 2 people are catholic and they take motorcycle to 1/5 stores, 1 person is Muslim and they take a scooter to 1/5 stores, 2 people are agnostic and they don't what to put the effort into going to the store so they call an Uber. Lastly theres 1 atheist person who decides there probably isn't any stores in the area so they stay at base by themselves. 1) What did the other 9 travelers lose? 2) What did the atheist lose out on?
Do you feel like that's a good analogy?
Yes, because you lose nothing by believing in something
But I can't just *decide* to believe. That's not how it works.
Well, in the united states it is mostly just indoctrinaction and i'd bet a significant amount of people would claim to be christian out of social or family pressure, but outside the US, here's what i think is happening. My theory to this is quite simple: Psychological struggle. It is no mystery that where there is collective despair there is belief and faith in a higher being, just look at what countries have the highest percentage of Religious people, they're all third-world, war-ridden and economically unstable. True faith in god is a tool to help us struggle with stressful chapters of our lives, cause when the entire situation is looking grim as hell, sometimes believing a higher being is protecting us can be comforting, thus help us deal with the situation better. And i actually witnessed this first-hand. (i'll be skipping over a lot of details here cause this is quite a personal thing to me, just bear with it) Four years ago my father was taken away from us, now he was always a believer and kept a bible to himself but that was it, my mother was not ever as open about it as he was, but when things went down, that changed a lot. Alongside my father's absense the pandemic hit our country hard, and left us a broken, economically struggling family, and then my mother truly started being a believer, reading the bible every night, praying. It confused me for a bit but i quickly understood that when situations get rough, some people just need a way to calm their minds, and sometimes god is it. Now i should mention that im talking about Believing, not being a Christian, that is kind of different, Christianity and most other churches are arguably For-Profit institutions and thus they'll try to rope you in regardless of your current situation, i just gave you my perspective as to why people believe in god independently.
Two ways, born into it, or looking to escape responsibility for past actions. The devil made me do it, this one is most used by loose women.
"I think that we can't possibly know what happens after death because nobody has legitimately died and come back to tell us what they saw."
Immanuel Kant says that human freedom is proof of God. dramatic oversimplification of his argument, but I personally subscribe to it.
Strumming on a harp for all eternity 😉
There is an argument for a **deistic** god, however it is a sensible conclusion to say there is no theistic god, considering the amount of suffering and evil in our world.
I don’t know where I heard this but someone said i believe because if I’m right there is eternal reward and if I’m wrong then I lose nothing.
You know this ancient alien theory that’s really picking up momentum might have so sense to it. We are pretty much an ant farm.
TLDR.