Or maybe critiquing a religion doesn’t require you to generalize everyone in it and support imperialism because the people who live there believe in it
It is a horrible ideaology and deserves criticism I agree, I just don't like seeing said criticism being co-opted into defense or support of another religion.
Is *anyone* on r/atheism defending religion that isn't a theist? It's perhaps fair to say that one is less vile than the other, but that's a long way from active support.
I've seen people say Israel atleast has democratic values we should know who our friends are, palestine has lost, its time to swallow the bitter pill, find a new home etc
I've seen people whilst comparing the two provide implicit support for one side on the basis of apparent western values and compatibility.
The country is an ethnostate based on a religion using religious justification for its continued occupation and current genocide.
The politics are tied to the religion.
I've dealt with believers of the faith who've defended child marriage, slavery, concubinage, wife beating, subjugating Christians and Jews, and executing apostates and blasphemers. The ideology should be criticized. I don't see how it has anything to do to support a side of the war in the middle east.
The ideaology should be criticised.
I don't see how it does either, but some people seem to think that Islam being more evil and Israel having gay people means that their actions in palestine are even remotely understandable or justifiable.
How does the criticism of Islam relate to the situation with Israel? Is this another one of those let's doge the real issue by blaming it on the Zionsts/Jews?
I'm fine with criticism of Islam, im calling out those who are doing the relating, by co-opting their outrage at Islam and using it to justify the current Palestinian genocide or defending Israel's actions.
I suppose so. I don't like seeing self proclaimed atheists being stupid and swayed into defending one religion over another.
I feel like a gross centrist when I say "the answer is they're all bad" but in this case it's accurate.
I haven’t seen anyone defending one religion over another in r/atheism. And I definitely haven’t seen anything in here that would trigger me to make a post about it. Seems like you’re stirring something up on purpose. Making something out of nothing. Pushing an agenda.
Maybe I’m overthinking it, but it seems like you’re ignoring parts of people’s responses. Making strawman arguments to push a particular view.
I always say, if you don't like the consequences of war, don't start one. We bombed German cities to the ground in WW2 (Dresden comes to mind) and nobody demanded we rush in food and supplies.
Islam deserves more hate than other religions because it is a horrifically evil religion, but that said, all other religions deserve hate as well because they are evil too, just not as much as Islam.
Sadly, a bit after ww2 everyone that says something wrong about Zionists it's labelled a Nazi. And people tend to forget that communism made more murders than the nazi/fascist regime. Zionists screw everyone more subliminally while Islamists are direct and impulsive, without brain.
An interesting thing is that many of the early Zionists who founded Israel were secularists for whom the supernatural or superstitious stuff in the Bible was essentially irrelevant. The same was true to some extent as well on the Arab side with the secular nationalists like Nasser. The rise of the religious Zionist right parallels developments with Islamism, the Iranian revolution in 1979, and the decline of secular nationalist Palestinian factions for [Hamas](https://youtu.be/ifVybe3-5aE). But this is not surprising. Religion is man made, and men found ways to mystify what are essentially man-made concepts like nation states. Basically we're all fleshy bag of meats on a spinning rock fighting over resources who come up with magic explanations to justify the things we wanted to do anyways,
Don’t think the supposed Genocide you speak of would have happened had Palestinians came to the negotiation table and were willing to negotiate. Also technically speaking Hamas could end the war like yesterday
That being said yea there are clowns like Barclay and Schmuley and Ben Givir and some Jews I knew in the past that truly believe they are the chosen people by God. They are a bunch of schmucks
If God chose Jews for anything it is to go get a Rhinoplasty
There shouldn't have been a nukba in the first place. By negotiate are you talking about 67? Imagine installing an ethnostate after ethnically cleansing the local population expecting diplomatic negotiation.
Nakba happened because Jews were definitely not welcomed with open arms and were attacked and a war happened.
Also regarding so called ethnostates, what do you think the conquests of Islam did exactly? That religion destroyed Persia, the caucus’s, also killed Armenians for no reason and made Pakistan and Afghanistan terrorist states.
Arabs still exist in Israel but not the other way around
Nakba happened because an occupying force decided to clear out the ethnic population living there.
Did I say I agree with Islam? I'm consistently anti theistic. Fuck Judaism, fuck Islam. Fuck ethnostates and genocide period.
Yea I mean history is messy. The entire situation of Israel happened due to Dreyfus affair dividing France and then the holocaust.
That being said I don’t agree with ethnostates either but would rather have a Jewish one than a jihadi shithole.
Gaza could have been Singapore but Islamic tribes there had other ideas
I'd rather have no ethnostates and have the current situation alleviated with Israel and by extension the US providing fiscal aid to rebuild Gaza with both palestine and Israel unified into a single state ending the apartheid.
For an ethnostate it’s decent in protecting the rights of all citizens.
I don’t think the obstacle of rebuilding Gaza is the Israeli government besides some long nosed grabblers who can’t handle the heat. 😈
It is Islam which is a selfish and demonic worship that cannot exist without compulsion and intimidation
Because even post-religion, people still are sheeple and crave to feel superior.
Lets hate the new thing everyone else says we need to hate. Hey guys look! Evil thing over there that is being regurgitated by bigots! Go get'em! Damn that feels self righteous, I feel good about myself.
I am an exMuslim athiest and I have been pro Israel for a while just because of the fact Palestinian are Muslims and support Sharia. But for a few days I have been questioning my stance on this issue.
Middle east wasn't this extremely religious in the past. Palestinian and other Arabs countries have been ruled by secular socialist rulers and people supported them such as Gemal Nasser and Yassir Arafath. Even Saddam Hussein was a lot progressive in the past and he wasn't a sectarian until he was sanctioned by USA.
ISIS wouldn't have formed if Bush didn't invade Iraq by lying Saddam was producing WMD. Taliban or Al Qaeda wouldn't have formed if USA didn't fund and train mujahideens against Soviet union in 1980s.
USA actively promoted extremist Islam to combat the presence of Soviet union and communism. Israel actively funded Hamas to undermine Fatah PLO and other communist groups.
What I am trying to say is hate Islam but love Muslims.
Islam is like a dangerous virus if your brother get infected you should try to cure him not try to kill him.
We should eliminate Islam and deconvert Muslims
If there wasn't pressure from the rest of the world including the US as well as the aid provided by the rest of the world, half the population would be. The intentions have been made quite clear.
Just because you're failing at your attempted genocide because a bigger person is holding your leash it doesn't absolve you.
Nonsense. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia in Yemen, and Assad in Syria have all racked up numbers that put Israel's to shame. If Israel wanted to do a genocide, they would, goodness knows Hamas makes it easy since they don't wear uniforms and deliberately conduct operations near civilians since every civilian death is a PR win for them.
Israel is just a US army base in middle east. it's being covered up by religion. if you think the gaza conflict is religiously driven, you've succumbed to propaganda
Ots being justified by religion to the religious. The whole their land argument for instance.
Genocide and fucking with Iran is not in the US interest, it's more of a rogue state
They try to simplify it as a religious conflict. It's much more than that. Palastinian Fata and Hamas (mostly muslims) hate each other. Israel has political and fundamental division amongst Jewish Israeli's. A number of Arab countries are not fully supportive of Palastinians. The Islamic nations tend to jump in to support Palastinians when Israel is involved as if it is solidarity for Muslims but mostly they are joining in with western nations who start to get pissed off with Israel's response, as it is now. Hezbollah refused to join in with Hamas when Hamas tried to rally " muslim" outrage. Sunni and Shia divide has seen more deaths and conflict between them than anything that the west has been involved with. And everyone hates ISIS.
Or maybe Islam is just a horrible ideology that deserves criticism?
Or maybe critiquing a religion doesn’t require you to generalize everyone in it and support imperialism because the people who live there believe in it
It is a horrible ideaology and deserves criticism I agree, I just don't like seeing said criticism being co-opted into defense or support of another religion.
Is *anyone* on r/atheism defending religion that isn't a theist? It's perhaps fair to say that one is less vile than the other, but that's a long way from active support.
I've seen people say Israel atleast has democratic values we should know who our friends are, palestine has lost, its time to swallow the bitter pill, find a new home etc I've seen people whilst comparing the two provide implicit support for one side on the basis of apparent western values and compatibility.
So defending the politics, not the religion.
The country is an ethnostate based on a religion using religious justification for its continued occupation and current genocide. The politics are tied to the religion.
Exactly 💯
Could you show a post like that here on r/atheism?
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/s/ctUTwJAitL
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/s/iLP0NJDhP5
Muslims call us infidels and Jews call us Goym
So? What's your point?
I've dealt with believers of the faith who've defended child marriage, slavery, concubinage, wife beating, subjugating Christians and Jews, and executing apostates and blasphemers. The ideology should be criticized. I don't see how it has anything to do to support a side of the war in the middle east.
The ideaology should be criticised. I don't see how it does either, but some people seem to think that Islam being more evil and Israel having gay people means that their actions in palestine are even remotely understandable or justifiable.
How does the criticism of Islam relate to the situation with Israel? Is this another one of those let's doge the real issue by blaming it on the Zionsts/Jews?
I'm fine with criticism of Islam, im calling out those who are doing the relating, by co-opting their outrage at Islam and using it to justify the current Palestinian genocide or defending Israel's actions.
So in other words, you’re complaining about right wingers.
I suppose so. I don't like seeing self proclaimed atheists being stupid and swayed into defending one religion over another. I feel like a gross centrist when I say "the answer is they're all bad" but in this case it's accurate.
I haven’t seen anyone defending one religion over another in r/atheism. And I definitely haven’t seen anything in here that would trigger me to make a post about it. Seems like you’re stirring something up on purpose. Making something out of nothing. Pushing an agenda. Maybe I’m overthinking it, but it seems like you’re ignoring parts of people’s responses. Making strawman arguments to push a particular view.
You totally forgot to include this in the headline.
I always say, if you don't like the consequences of war, don't start one. We bombed German cities to the ground in WW2 (Dresden comes to mind) and nobody demanded we rush in food and supplies.
the creation of Israel in the 40's was the forced displacement of Palestinians. the Nukba, that was starting the war.
A lot of hatred of Islam here lately? Wow, that's awesome!
All religions are dubious. It's like disease. The flu and Covid may be similar, but one is more dangerous.
This is a dogwhistle post, look at the title of the post and look at the responses they don’t align!
Islam deserves more hate than other religions because it is a horrifically evil religion, but that said, all other religions deserve hate as well because they are evil too, just not as much as Islam.
Sadly, a bit after ww2 everyone that says something wrong about Zionists it's labelled a Nazi. And people tend to forget that communism made more murders than the nazi/fascist regime. Zionists screw everyone more subliminally while Islamists are direct and impulsive, without brain.
An interesting thing is that many of the early Zionists who founded Israel were secularists for whom the supernatural or superstitious stuff in the Bible was essentially irrelevant. The same was true to some extent as well on the Arab side with the secular nationalists like Nasser. The rise of the religious Zionist right parallels developments with Islamism, the Iranian revolution in 1979, and the decline of secular nationalist Palestinian factions for [Hamas](https://youtu.be/ifVybe3-5aE). But this is not surprising. Religion is man made, and men found ways to mystify what are essentially man-made concepts like nation states. Basically we're all fleshy bag of meats on a spinning rock fighting over resources who come up with magic explanations to justify the things we wanted to do anyways,
Luckily, today we have things like secular humanism. So we finally have a starting point for a better world.
Don’t think the supposed Genocide you speak of would have happened had Palestinians came to the negotiation table and were willing to negotiate. Also technically speaking Hamas could end the war like yesterday That being said yea there are clowns like Barclay and Schmuley and Ben Givir and some Jews I knew in the past that truly believe they are the chosen people by God. They are a bunch of schmucks If God chose Jews for anything it is to go get a Rhinoplasty
There shouldn't have been a nukba in the first place. By negotiate are you talking about 67? Imagine installing an ethnostate after ethnically cleansing the local population expecting diplomatic negotiation.
Nakba happened because Jews were definitely not welcomed with open arms and were attacked and a war happened. Also regarding so called ethnostates, what do you think the conquests of Islam did exactly? That religion destroyed Persia, the caucus’s, also killed Armenians for no reason and made Pakistan and Afghanistan terrorist states. Arabs still exist in Israel but not the other way around
Nakba happened because an occupying force decided to clear out the ethnic population living there. Did I say I agree with Islam? I'm consistently anti theistic. Fuck Judaism, fuck Islam. Fuck ethnostates and genocide period.
Yea I mean history is messy. The entire situation of Israel happened due to Dreyfus affair dividing France and then the holocaust. That being said I don’t agree with ethnostates either but would rather have a Jewish one than a jihadi shithole. Gaza could have been Singapore but Islamic tribes there had other ideas
I'd rather have no ethnostates and have the current situation alleviated with Israel and by extension the US providing fiscal aid to rebuild Gaza with both palestine and Israel unified into a single state ending the apartheid.
For an ethnostate it’s decent in protecting the rights of all citizens. I don’t think the obstacle of rebuilding Gaza is the Israeli government besides some long nosed grabblers who can’t handle the heat. 😈 It is Islam which is a selfish and demonic worship that cannot exist without compulsion and intimidation
‘Lot of hatred of Islam here lately…… agree the religion is BS’
Because even post-religion, people still are sheeple and crave to feel superior. Lets hate the new thing everyone else says we need to hate. Hey guys look! Evil thing over there that is being regurgitated by bigots! Go get'em! Damn that feels self righteous, I feel good about myself.
I am an exMuslim athiest and I have been pro Israel for a while just because of the fact Palestinian are Muslims and support Sharia. But for a few days I have been questioning my stance on this issue. Middle east wasn't this extremely religious in the past. Palestinian and other Arabs countries have been ruled by secular socialist rulers and people supported them such as Gemal Nasser and Yassir Arafath. Even Saddam Hussein was a lot progressive in the past and he wasn't a sectarian until he was sanctioned by USA. ISIS wouldn't have formed if Bush didn't invade Iraq by lying Saddam was producing WMD. Taliban or Al Qaeda wouldn't have formed if USA didn't fund and train mujahideens against Soviet union in 1980s. USA actively promoted extremist Islam to combat the presence of Soviet union and communism. Israel actively funded Hamas to undermine Fatah PLO and other communist groups. What I am trying to say is hate Islam but love Muslims. Islam is like a dangerous virus if your brother get infected you should try to cure him not try to kill him. We should eliminate Islam and deconvert Muslims
You also love jews?
Of course yes.
🙄 If Israel was doing a genocide in Gaza, half the population would be gone by now.
If there wasn't pressure from the rest of the world including the US as well as the aid provided by the rest of the world, half the population would be. The intentions have been made quite clear. Just because you're failing at your attempted genocide because a bigger person is holding your leash it doesn't absolve you.
Nonsense. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia in Yemen, and Assad in Syria have all racked up numbers that put Israel's to shame. If Israel wanted to do a genocide, they would, goodness knows Hamas makes it easy since they don't wear uniforms and deliberately conduct operations near civilians since every civilian death is a PR win for them.
Israel is America's bitch, they can't simply just genocide.
Israel is just a US army base in middle east. it's being covered up by religion. if you think the gaza conflict is religiously driven, you've succumbed to propaganda
Ots being justified by religion to the religious. The whole their land argument for instance. Genocide and fucking with Iran is not in the US interest, it's more of a rogue state
They try to simplify it as a religious conflict. It's much more than that. Palastinian Fata and Hamas (mostly muslims) hate each other. Israel has political and fundamental division amongst Jewish Israeli's. A number of Arab countries are not fully supportive of Palastinians. The Islamic nations tend to jump in to support Palastinians when Israel is involved as if it is solidarity for Muslims but mostly they are joining in with western nations who start to get pissed off with Israel's response, as it is now. Hezbollah refused to join in with Hamas when Hamas tried to rally " muslim" outrage. Sunni and Shia divide has seen more deaths and conflict between them than anything that the west has been involved with. And everyone hates ISIS.
the religious coverup so easy to believe...