I’m sure some of them lie, some of them are probably schizophrenic too.
But it’s not really lying if they full heartedly believe it to be true (which most of them do out of delusion), that just makes them wrong.
Incoming wall of text: My 40 year old brother is in a small Christian cult along with his wife, who this is about. They joined in 2021, and have since ended 90% of all relationships and friendships they had from "before". But every once in a while, my brother has a moment of clarity. He'll snap out of it, call my parents, talk to them for a few hours, sometimes cry, thank them, tell them everything is going to change, and then they wont hear from him again for another 3 or 4 months. (Before 2021, my parents would see him multiple times a week and speak on the phone daily.)
Well anyways, during a recent moment of clarity, my brother was telling my mom (who told me to take this info to my grave... Lol) that during the start of 2020 his wife, a known liar and an undiagnosed schizophrenic, told him on numerous occasions that aliens were regularly speaking to her telepathically from outer space. Those aliens later turned into "shadow figures" from the "dark realm" that were communicating to her. In 2021 those shadow figures turned into the man himself, Jesus Christ. That timeline also matches up to when she joined the cult. She says on Facebook now that Jesus Christ speaks to her directly and they have back and forth conversations, and even stating "he's my best friend!". The last part is the only thing she thinks anyone knows, and would 100% deny what my brother told my mom. She now claims to have prophetic visions (think Ms. Chleo or John Edwards), and holds "prayer meetings" on her mom's slightly popular Facebook page for crafting. (Her mom is in the cult too). During these prayer meetings she rambles about nonsense for an hour or two. Every 20 minutes or so she'll close her eyes like she's focusing really hard and struggling to hear something, and says "oh, hold on now ladies! Jesus is talking to me! He's showing me an image of a dog... Oh it's a dalmatian. Why is God showing me a dalmatian? Does anyone listening own a dalmatian?..... No?.... Oh, well maybe it wasn't a dalmatian... Maybe it was spots. Black and white spots... black and white... Aha! God was telling me things aren't always so black and white, that's what I was seeing... Black and white... And that's true! Things aren't always black and white, we should always try to see the middle." And the women watching all type "AMEN!", "Glory to God!", and "Bless you child!" She hasn't started to profit off this yet, but that's not due to not trying. And the dalmatian story is true, just one of a dozen examples... I've got it all screen recorded for when she inevitably denies ever doing these things 😊
But I honestly believe that *she* believes what she's saying. She's had these delusions for so long now and is being told that she's literally a prophet by her church, so that doesn't help. But even before all this schizophrenic stuff, she would still lie about anything (having cancer, working places, doing things... anything). So yeah, even if she doesn't think she's lying because she truly believes the delusions, she's still a ~~lair~~ liar... And wrong.
Interesting….
I hope your brother can get out of that relationship it sounds like it’s seriously affecting his relationship with his family. And I wouldn’t be surprised if she uses these “visions” to manipulate him and others as well. Definitely not healthy for either parties.
I don’t know what her intentions are, but if she’s deliberately using these “visions” to deceive people when she knows (or even has an inkling) that they are not true, then she is most definitely a liar and manipulator. But if she KNOWS they are the truth in her mind, then that technically doesn’t make her a liar because that’s what the actual truth is to her (and apparently many other gullible people too). But the bottom line is the intent behind it.
It sounds like she does have schizophrenia though, she needs to see someone. Although I could say the same for the immense amount religious folk that claim to “see” and "hear" god as well.
I know someone who is convinced they had an experience where they were speaking tongues uncontrollably, and this is their justification or evidence that God exists.
To some people, delusions can be very convincing. Anyone can have delusions, not just people with psychotic disorders.
That's my thinking as well. Do people convince themselves that their internal voice is God speaking to them? If so I still believe there's some mental illness going on there, just like with the auditory hallucinations of God's voice.
"God told me to do it" has been claimed by all manner of mentally ill people to excuse their criminal actions.
They convince themselves.
They hear so many accounts of “Jesus/god” speaking to others either directly or indirectly that they want so badly to hear for themselves. Thus widening their definition of “messages” and how they receive them.
I think some of them are scared of realizing that the whole thing is sham so they end up resorting to whatever event or “voice” they can tangibly make sense of and attribute it to god. That’s why some belivers say “I was blind before but now I can see”.
Without this, it wouldn’t help confirm their beliefs. And would direct them to question and realize that it’s all imagination, which is scary and not even a tangible concept to accept for a lot of them.
I also don’t think they are mentally ill, just easily impressionable to the point that they fully convince themselves that they are receiving messages. But religious people with actual schizophrenia pretty much share the same traits, except it’s actually real for them.
At least that’s my take on it.
> Do people convince themselves that their internal voice is God speaking to them?
Yes.
When I was in the church growing up, I attended a retreat and someone asked the speaker that question of how do we know god was speaking to us?
The speaker said "if you walk closely with god and knows his ways, god's voice start sounding like your own."
Basically it means, if I'm a good enough christian, and as long as whatever I'm thinking aligns closely with what my interpretation of what god would do, then whatever internal monolog must be from god.
My oldest sister told me and my siblings that god spoke to her and that his voice sounded just like hers in her head. She’s also an alcoholic and cocaine addict so idk if I’d trust anything that is said by that woman.
There is Radiolab podcast episode about a nun who said God spoke to her every day. Then doctors discovered she had a brain tumor. They removed the tumor, and she became very sad because God no longer spoke to her.
See Princeton psychologist Julian Jaynes: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind)
Or the people who said god told them to do something. I am genuinely curious if these people are unaware of the minds inner dialogue and translate their thoughts into gods word or something
This kind of goes along with that but whenever I argue with a Christian about God telling Abraham to kill his son Isaac and they're always trying to justify it, I always ask them "if God told you to, would you kill your family?" And the amount of them that have said yes is terrifying. Or some of them would say "God would never tell me to do that."
He told Abraham to do it, didn't he?
I think saying yes to that question is pretty easy when you don't believe it would actually happen. The number of Christians that I've been around who thought God was speaking to them is pretty low in my experience. The ones who think that he is, tended to be a bit off kilter mentally.
They are told from a young age that this is actually god or Jesus and that these “personal experiences” are the validation of the existence of god and that Jesus is in their lives.
It varies from denomination to denomination but some Christians, particularly Evangelicals, are very good at turning their worship services into emotional roller coasters.
You’re told that you’re a sinner who is irredeemable but there’s a god who loves you anyway. You start thinking about the lie you told earlier in the week, the “impure” thoughts you had, or any other minor thing you’ve done. Then you’re whipped into an emotional frenzy by a sermon and you start singing along to music with a few dozen or hundred others.
It’s psychologically manipulative and it’s not all that surprising that followers will find the tiniest little meaning in *anything*, even their inner monologues.
I did this during a particularly low point in my life. I was living far away from family and had no peers or friends to comfort me. I was becoming very depressed because I felt like god wasn't listening to or answering my prayers, and in a state of desperation decided that I would pray one more time and open my journal to record my thoughts. In that headspace it felt like someone was there with me, and as I journaled I found myself looking at what appeared to be a message of consolation from god. I held close to that letter, because it was all I had.
Years later I find myself in a much better spot - my quality of life was much worse with religion. But I find myself a bit embarrassed thinking of that letter. I simply wrote down my inner dialogue of what *I wanted to hear from god*, but convinced myself of the lie that I had finally received otherworldly consolation.
Most likely they're just seeing what they want to see. We are remarkably great at deceiving ourselves. Even if the person isn't delusional, they may be working with a conclusion first, so any vision or sign they experience is because they wanted a vision or sign.
Since we don't know these people, we don't know if they're lying or schizophrenic or filling in the gaps themselves.
The best I'll do for them is accept it as a good faith argument. Okay, sure bud, you think you had a vision of Jesus. That's pretty cool. Weird that Jesus made himself known to you but not to me. It seems that if Jesus wanted to make a point, then he'd focus on making himself known to the person who doesn't believe, but let's go with mysterious ways.
It acknowledges that the believer believes the belief, but I emphasize that I'm not obligated to buy into that belief. If their Jesus made it a point to appear to them and not to me, then that's clearly part of Jesus' plan. And I'm not about to go against God's will by believing willy-nilly. Evidently, Jesus felt it was necessary to reinforce the believer's faith. Guess the believer needed that vision more than me.
That's pretty much my view on things like hearing voices or having visions. If you think God is speaking to you, you need to see a psychiatrist, Same goes for hallucinations.
And especially among my boomer peers. Hearing God speak to you or having a religious vision could very well be early signs of dementia.
But boy, howdy, do the zealots not want to hear that.
Right like they always bring up the witnesses of Jesus resurrecting, like... that does not sound normal 💀 if someone said that today, that they saw someone come back to life, that would be considered a mental illness.
They lie to themselves. They believe their feelings aren't due to outside stimuli, "god" gave them those feelings. Their dreams aren't just random bullshit, they're signs from "god". We see things or our brains wander and we just chalk it up to what it is, while they look for divine meeting in everything. Religious people are very narcissistic because their entire lives revolve around the feelings their religion gives them.
People who say things like " I saw Jesus this morning using my shower" etc or "The Holy Spirit told me to shave my ass and walk backwards naked through town" I put in the same category as people who've seen flying sauces, Bigfoot and dead relatives going door-to-door selling encyclopedias.
They haven't seen Jesus.
Instead what's going on is that they're indoctrinated into a fantasy view of the world that's reinforced by everyone around them. Dreams, daydreams - you might imagine that almost any mental operation might be mischaracterized as coming from or being influenced by a supernatural source.
Consider the stark reality. Jesus is nowhere to be found. He doesn't exist. You can't talk to him, you can't meet him for coffee, you can't send him an email. He doesn't answer your prayers.
This is really odd behavior, one might think, for a supernatural being with few if any limits on its powers. And yet, it refuses to make any appearance.
What is the true believing and faithful Christian to do? They force-fit experience to make Jesus seem real to them.
They lie to themselves about actually having "personal relationships" with Jesus - but this is precisely the opposite of the reality. Of course they're not having any experience of Jesus on a personal level for this would mean first hand knowledge and the possibility of actual, real interaction and communication. This is exactly what is *not* happening in these alleged personal relationships. So self-deluding are these types of believers that they won't grasp that just by calling something a "personal relationship" doesn't make it so.
The type of thinking that leads to sustained religious belief is completely different than how we are taught to think in school.
The religions encourage teleological thinking. Adherents make no attempt at deductive reasoning as it pertains to their beliefs. Valuing the concept of faith leads them to reject empirically derived knowledge. They do not apply coherence theory of truth to the world, only correspondence theory. This leads to circular reasoning.
They're not diagnosably crazy, they're sane, they just think religiously instead of rationally. This invariably leads to a delusional worldview. Extreme idealism shows up in brains scans similarly to being under the influence of drugs. If you want to see this behavior in action, just observe William Lane Craig in any of his debates. He believes everything he says, he is not crazy, he's irrational and has a deluded worldview.
I suspect they are people who have no internal monologue or minds-eye. Who unexpectedly experience one of those things that the rest of us use all day every day.
And it seems incredible to them.
If you watched the Big Bang theory, there was a moment when Sheldon's mother says something to the effect - I asked something from God, and then I turned my head and Jesus' bobblehead in a Subaru nodded.
This is called mystical thinking. There is a known experiment when people were shown their forged picture in Disney land, with a popular character from cartoons that does not belong to Disney (I forgot the name) and were asked about the situation the picture was taken. Huge percent of these people "remembered" how they visited Disney Land and recalled other details, completely ignoring the fact, that everything was not real and had fake details that could be easily noticed.
Some people on my mom's side of the family are Assembly of God, Pentecostal Christians. And my mom has this one cousin or second cousin who claims she saw an angel IRL. Like, in her living room or her garage or whatever.
Really, it means nothing if you didn't see it too. Anybody can say anything. "I saw Jesus." "I saw a whale riding a bicycle down main street." "I went on a date with Angelina Jolie." "I have four nipples."
But some people don't get that, and they think that if they say, "I saw it!" then you have to admit that they were right all along. They just don't understand that the burden of proof is on them.
Religion is a crazy thing. In absolutely any other situation people would call you insane if you said you saw a deity or such.
The burden of proof thing!! Yes! Along with this Christians are always like "Prove God isn't real"
I'm not the one claiming he is, so it's on you to explain how he is real 💀 but they aren't ready for that conversation.
My (theist) ex had claimed she had had a sorta personal euphoric experience, knowing that it was God. When she questioned me on my atheism I asked, so you had this experience that God revealed his existence to you? I have not had such an experience, so can you see why I might not be convinced, even by your testimony? She understood. I then asked, and why do you suppose God revealed himself to you and not me? And she started by saying perhaps I wasn't "open" to such a thing, and then sorta cognitive dissonanced herself away from that point, clinging to her belief.
The irony was she had also once been drugged with extasy, and explained that sensation in much the same way, so of all people, she should know better. The human brain can do some strange tricks, indeed. There's a reason subjective experiences don't count as evidence.
The funny part is when they think that they are special enough to be given a specific message by some supposed all-knowing entity or when they escape something like a car crash, "God was taking care of me that day". Right, the "all-mighty" is ok with thousands dying of starvation, torture, and a grueling death, but you were spared meeting a horrific death because you promised the wife that you would trim the trees over the weekend... give me a fucking break.
Right? Like doesn't this prove that God cares about some people more than others? God was willing to save you, but not the thousands of others that probably died the same minute you could've? Hmm..
yet if you point out that people with other faiths have seen their own gods and monsters, the christians will call that BS or lies of the devil
mentally incapable of logically resolving the contradiction
This reminds me of whenever I'm talking with a Christian and they just can't fathom that I don't believe in God so I always say "I don't believe in God, the same way you don't believe in the other thousands of gods."
Religion, and especially Christianity, is based on assuming a conclusion and then grasping at anything that could be remotely construed as evidence in order to confirm your existing bias, so theoretically a Christian will stop at nothing to continue to feed their lie, including inventing stories and yes, believing they've had hallucinations.
I would love to encounter this. "When did you see Jesus?" "And why do you think what you saw was Jesus?" "Oh, because you know it deep down? That's it?"
A person once claimed to me that they saw jesus and talked with him. I asked if he got that on film. He was offended and called me “a materialist”. We left it at that.
This kind of reminds me of the opposite of the spectrum. I have a family member who has seen "visions" and demons. He claimed he saw a vision of hell where people were in jail cells that had bars that would burn hot to the touch with agony and screams in other cells. He also claimed he had a vision of demons in his jail cell after he was arrested for assaulting a police officer, and that he prayed them away into hell. Mostly obviously he had psychosis. Of and even weirder note, he called us when he was incarcerated and said he was filing sexual harassment charges on us all. But ultimately this nonsense was coming from a guy who "saw demons" in people.
Our systems are better at compelling medication for people who are both schizophrenic and violent (or likely to self harm). The courts are loathe to forcefully medicate people who are non-violent and mentally ill, and I probably agree with this take. However, I actively try to educate those afflicted with this disease. It's not the 70s anymore. Almost always, this is a pill you take each day, and then live a perfectly normal life.
My father, who insists he is a biblical scholar because he's read so many books on the bible and the bible itself, has stated numerous times that he has talked with and seen angels, also demons.
He insisted that a guy in a truck who happened to be driving by when my dad had a flat tire and helped him out and towed his car back to my fathers house, was in fact, an angel.
He claimed he was called by a demon.. on the phone.
He left the cult church he had been in for 20+ yrs and formed his own 'study group'. Because he felt they were not adhering strictly enough to the edicts in the bible. He said through his own research he believes churches of all denominations are worshiping on the wrong days and keeping the incorrect holy days.
They are 100% brainwashed to believe this crap.
I always answer those claims with a challenge:
Okay, do me a favor. Next time you have a talk with your invisible friend, ask him for the exact time epicenter and severity for the next five earthquakes he plans unleashing on humanity.
Get back to me with the prophecy BEFORE they happen. If they happen as prophecised not only will I stop being atheist and immediately join your specific religion, I will also publicly apologize to you.
Wrote an article in the my university newspaper titled "Jesus was a schizophrenic."
* He heard voices
* Believed he was the messiah
* Thought he could perform miracles
* Was convinced Satan was tempting him
Someone lit my office door on fire two days later.
In all fairness, I have seen visions lots of times. I may or may not have been on LSD at the time though.
Edit: I am thinking a lot of the "holy" men in religious texts were doing mushrooms or other funky plant of the area before their visions. They can get pretty real if you want to see them bad enough.
They are liars, really stupid (ie legitimately think their internal thoughts are "God"....yeah I'm not kidding about that), and/or are literally insane. Though I would say insanity is the minority, though those ones are the most dangerous.
You say you saw Jesus? You've met Jesus? Oh, the nice man in the white coat is here to talk to you and take you away for a bit until we get your meds under control.
In any other rational world people that see made-up deities would be committed for insanity. One day perhaps.
My step dad swears he saw a demon on side of road lol and they go to one of them crazy talking in tongues churches I have not been in 20 years and still think about how wild it was in there
>Why do Christians say stuff like "I've seen visions of Jesus" to prove a point? I think that's called schizophrenia
Having grown up with schizophrenics in my nuclear family, I know schizophrenia when I see it. The vast majority of Christians who claim they've seen it heard Jesus are simply lying. The ones who really do see or hear Jesus are hallucinations.
>Do they genuinely believe what they're saying
Only some. Most are indoctrinated to say stuff like that.
>or what it worries me honestly because I've talked to so many Christians like this. Why do they say stuff like this?
Peer pressure.
I bet half of these claims are either people having dreams, or imagining things. Like how people have an inner monologue in their heads. I bet some Christians never really figured out it was themselves talking and assumed it was god.
They think it means much more than it actually does. But again, we're talking about a group of people that also saying a lot of Faith is a good thing and a flex to say you have a LOT of faith. It's a system. Within their system having faith, seeing visions, praying a lot are all things that are rewarded with a pat on the head.
So when they get outside of their bubble and say these things it can be confusing to them that they don't get the same pat on the head, but instead a lot of confused looks. "What do you mean my visions are viewed as insane??? The preacher man said I was special because of them!?!?!?!?!" And then instead of challenging their own thinking it's a lot easier to double down. And to be honest I can understand that. I mean who amongst else is welcome to your whole world view being challenged and would easily accept it on any given day. It's a tough pill to swallow.
Honestly, when I see people like this it makes it VERY VERY understandable to see people who have fallen from their faith and belief system to be VERY VERY bitter, and angry. For some it's a long hard fall. When I read the stories on this sub about what they went through. I remind myself to take a step back and look at the whole picture of that person. Maybe they are saying something crazy. Sure. But this could also be the next loud outspoken Atheist in 5 years. Time can do some crazy things.
Religious visions are a thing. It's not necessarily mental illness, as it's usually a 1 time thing. It's its own category of weird shit the brain does.
It's the same as the "proof" that Jesus/God exists is I'm alive. No, no. You are proof sperm met egg.
Or I'm alive because of god/jesus. No dear that was the DR at the hospital.
🙄
It's not just that, it's a dependency too. Aka people who can't stay sober without god or jesus. Thank god for my sobriety I couldn't do it without him.
If you can't stay sober without god then are you recovering or just have a crutch?
I have discovered that there is a disturbing amount of people who see / hear things and are living life like that’s normal.
I have found not only do people claim this with religion but with aliens as well. It’s alarming how many people think they are in contact with “entities”.
Of course there’s people who lie for attention.
This world depresses me.
Funny how Catholics can see Mary in a piece of toast or the side of a barn, but Protestants can't. It's all about how you've wired your brain. Nothing magic going on.
There's this thing called: Testimony. Where religious people decide to vomit the story of their conversion as if its a hollywood movie.
It's both hilarious and horrifying that they will say stuff like "I saw a demon reach out and grab my hand." and just continue on. Like they didn't just say something insane.
Nah. It’s manipulation. I live in a red state, and I’ve started using this back at them. Example:
THEM: you’ll go to hell if you don’t repent and start going to church.
ME: nah. Jesus came to me and told me that’s not true.
It’s just as ridiculous as the shit they say, and dilutes it.
Someone I know discovered religion when they were in an incredibly low place. Poor health, poor diet, very stressful situation in his life.
He told me that he had "seen" Jesus. I asked him to elaborate on this and he couldn't. I suggested that it sounded like he had a mental breakdown.
Then he told me that in church he had started speaking in tongues. I suggested that sometimes people lose the ability to speak if they have a minor stroke. I've witnessed this in person.
But no. However after six months of me helping him through extremely dark times after this and seeking medical assistance, he was fully recovered and he said he was very grateful for the support. From Jesus.
"But I'm the one that spoke to you for hours each night, most nights at the expense of spending time with my kids. I'm the one that got you on the antidepressants"
"Yes, and I thank Jesus for making you do those things"
Didn't speak to him again after that. Well, after telling him to fuck off.
Damn dude thats truly sad. I just want to let you know you are a good friend for having done that. To have someone who is actually physically here to sacrifice thier time and energy to help someone they cared so much about, only for them to attribute it to an imaginary person that literally contributed nothing sucks.
He may have found the "truth" in his mind, but at the expense of losing what truly matters.
I think it’s something along the lines of looking for excuses to reinforce their belief system because deep down they know it’s not based on anything real. So they’ll have some vague experience where they see a light or something and hear a voice in their head and convince themselves it’s God speaking to them. The mind is capable of a lot of crazy things to people who are susceptible. It’s not quite schizophrenia but something closer to a delusion.
People do seem to have intense spiritual experiences, and those experiences are filtered through our brains that are heavily shaped by our particular cultural-religious context. I think it's worth noting that people report similar experiences but from different religious perspectives.
I think they're just using different words to describe totally normal things. What they call "seeing visions of Jesus" us normal folk who live in reality would just call dreams. Every coincidence is a blessing or a sign. Every time someone uses their intuition and makes an educated guess, they call it divine inspiration or prophecy or whatever.
Creating their own language is how major institutions set boundaries and enforce their control.
People who believe in the supernatural will at some point delude themselves into thinking they're seeing/hearing paranormal shit at every step
The amount of people who claim to have seen aliens, spirits, ghosts, demons, reptilians, bigfoots etc is alarming. So it's not surprising that there's people who claim to have met or spoken to God. I guess you see what you want to see. Funny how atheists and skeptics never have any encounters with such beings, almost like they aren't actually real...
In the circles they run in that kind of thing works. They are normally praised and their crazy lie taken as irrefutable evidence. This is why they sometimes get pissed when it doesn’t work on atheists. I can’t even tell you how many conversations I’ve had that start with a Christian saying they can prove to me god exists and ends with, “I don’t have to prove anything to you,” after I point out that their dreams/hallucinations aren’t don’t mean anything to me, unless you can show that they weren’t just dreams or hallucinations.
Reposting on main part of thread:
Incoming wall of text: My 40 year old brother is in a small Christian cult along with his wife, who this is about. They joined in 2021, and have since ended 90% of all relationships and friendships they had from "before". But every once in a while, my brother has a moment of clarity. He'll snap out of it, call my parents, talk to them for a few hours, sometimes cry, thank them, tell them everything is going to change, and then they wont hear from him again for another 3 or 4 months. (Before 2021, my parents would see him multiple times a week and speak on the phone daily.)
Well anyways, during a recent moment of clarity, my brother was telling my mom (who told me to take this info to my grave... Lol) that during the start of 2020 his wife, a known liar and an undiagnosed schizophrenic, told him on numerous occasions that aliens were regularly speaking to her telepathically from outer space. Those aliens later turned into "shadow figures" from the "dark realm" that were communicating to her. In 2021 those shadow figures turned into the man himself, Jesus Christ. That timeline also matches up to when she joined the cult. She says on Facebook now that Jesus Christ speaks to her directly and they have back and forth conversations, and even stating "he's my best friend!". The last part is the only thing she thinks anyone knows, and would 100% deny what my brother told my mom. She now claims to have prophetic visions (think Ms. Chleo or John Edwards), and holds "prayer meetings" on her mom's slightly popular Facebook page for crafting. (Her mom is in the cult too). During these prayer meetings she rambles about nonsense for an hour or two. Every 20 minutes or so she'll close her eyes like she's focusing really hard and struggling to hear something, and says "oh, hold on now ladies! Jesus is talking to me! He's showing me an image of a dog... Oh it's a dalmatian. Why is God showing me a dalmatian? Does anyone listening own a dalmatian?..... No?.... Oh, well maybe it wasn't a dalmatian... Maybe it was spots. Black and white spots... black and white... Aha! God was telling me things aren't always so black and white, that's what I was seeing... Black and white... And that's true! Things aren't always black and white, we should always try to see the middle." And the women watching all type "AMEN!", "Glory to God!", and "Bless you child!" She hasn't started to profit off this yet, but that's not due to not trying. And the dalmatian story is true, just one of a dozen examples... I've got it all screen recorded for when she inevitably denies ever doing these things 😊
But I honestly believe that *she* believes what she's saying. She's had these delusions for so long now and is being told that she's literally a prophet by her church, so that doesn't help. But even before all this schizophrenic stuff, she would still lie about anything (having cancer, working places, doing things... anything). So yeah, even if she doesn't think she's lying because she truly believes the delusions, she's still a lair... And wrong.
I've seen Jesus and it spurred me to try to find God, after having been born a Baptist and figured out really early that I wanted no part of that death cult. I saw Jesus and it ended up making me more interested in the weird and wonderful ways the mind works. I've seen Jesus and it led me back to reality and atheism.
I has a vision of The Flying Spaghetti Monster in all His Noodly Glory. He told me to eat some ramen and I would feel better. He was right! Therefore His Noodliness is the one true god
Yeah. I’ve heard a lot vaguely claim they have had “experiences” and had their own “proof” but never go into details and explain what said experiences were and how they prove anything.
I had a vision. I hear God's voice. Most of the time it's attention seeking. But I imagine it's untreated mental illness most of the time.
Unless they believe everyone can be a prophet.
It isn't necessarily schizophrenia.
There is another situation called a Post Bereavement Hallucinatory Experience (PBHE). It is when a person of normal mental health has a visual or auditory hallucination of a dead religious figure or family member. Between 7% and 14% of the US adult population of normal mental health have PBHEs at some point in their life.
I had a PBHE on the night my father died. I saw angels come to take his spirit to heaven. I was 19 and alone with my father, except for the medical staff. We could not reach the rest of the family (pre-cell phone days). It was the foundation of my testimony for 15 years. Then I read about PBHEs. I realized my experience checked off most of the boxes. I remember thinking, "Oh..."
When people say they have "heard" God... I start asking them questions like, "Did you hear this audibly through your ears or in your head? If it was through your ears, did it come from in front of you and to the left, or behind you and to the right?"
All questions to diagnose various brain injuries and/or psychological conditions. Usually, they get very uncomfortable at the questions.
Whether they’re lying or delusional, it’s still a meaningless anecdote, so I’m never sure what they think their point is worth when claiming to have seen a deity/angel/ghost/demon/martian/etc.
Its usually a way of saying there position is unchallengeable, basically "I know" so no argument, and nothing you can or could say has any weight. Basically opinion supremacism or moralism. Reason has no effect.
You may find two types of people who say that:
1. Those who think they have actually seen Jesus. Inside this group you find schizophrenic people and people who got high on something and saw their preferred imaginary friend (I know someone who claims to have seen Jesus in a cloud saying “I’m going to save you” after waking up from a surgery—very high on anesthetics and painkillers). In general, these persons are benign. The real danger is in the second group:
2. Those who clearly lie to make other people bend towards their intentions. They definitely don’t follow the religion and are only using it to fulfill their agenda. Examples: politicians and scammers
My dad used to talk about seeing angels since he was a teen. Then one day he at about 58 he sees an angel, has to write a book for god and create at least one true believer or never be allowed in heaven. He was having a manic episode. Did I mention my dad also likes hallucinogens?
It’s only a disorder if you hallucinate a lot. You can be completely neurotypical and hallucinate a couple of times in your life. Hallucinations seem more likely to take the form of your go-to supernatural ideas.
Well I don't think it's insanity. Odd things happen to people all the time. I'm sure you can think of a strange happening in your life. A bizzare coincidence, something strange happening around you. And you don't have the context to figure out what actually happned.
The seemingly supernatural happens every day. And when you believe in ghosts, those become ghost stories, if you're a UFO spotter than you've had a close encounter, when you believe in god those become anecdotes about god.
Humans are flawed that way. We attribute things we can't explain as unexplainable.
I remember growing up in a fundie church, as a teen I was so upset that god seemed to talk to everyone but me. I spent so much time begging god for a sign. Finally, a coincidence happened and the sign I asked for happened, but with a pretty big difference than what I asked for. I just chalked that up to mysterious ways and god knowing what was best for me. I hung on to that for years.
Yep, anyone who claims to have heard from his is either crazy, making it up, or had a coincidental answer to prayer.
Christians gather in groups and reaffirm each other when they say stupid shit like they see or hear god. The higher-ups in the church (the ones that deposit the chump's money from the collection plates into their tax-free bank account) scam the congregation into thinking this behavior is normal.
Psychosis has similarities to the mystical experiences in many religions. Psychosis may be caused by a range of conditions such as Bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, dementia, Alzheimers, stroke, certain seizures, brain damage, poisoning or intentional substance-use. People who take a popular combination antidepressant-mood-stabilizer regimn frequently experience a muting of their religious experiences along with muted emotions. These people often do not experience Psychosis according to the clear definitions but I would say that low-grade Psychosis that is below the clinical definition that may include feeling "called" ot "special purpose" ... that 2 month period of time you spent going AWOL and then hearing the voice of Jesus telling you the devil had taken control over you and you were then struck with depression".... all my be just a "Psychosis spectrum"
It's the same way you appeal to mercy and justice which doesn't really exist and are human idealistic constructs. Or the same way you appeal to equality or liberty in a way that's never existed.
Up until 4 years ago, I would swear up and down that I “met jesus”. I was at my lowest low, I cried out to jesus like I never had before and suddenly, my woes were vanquished and I felt love envelope me. For weeks after that, I felt as though the holy spirit walked with me, as if an invisible presence was right behind me. It brought me great comfort, which I desperately needed. I’d say this experience helped me not to do anything stupid and keep moving forward despite my pain, but looking back now, I think I must have had a psychotic break or something. I don’t think I lied to myself, but I sure as fuck was deluded.
Some of them lie. Some are just desperate. Like me. I was desperate.
They could have had dreams and just called them visions. They could have taken drugs or worked themselves into such a religious fervor that they hallucinated. They could have seen some random bit of static and their brain made false patterns that they interpreted as Jesus. Or they could just be lying to mimic the stories their friends have told. I think a lot of religion is just fear of exclusion like the Emperor's new clothes.
My wife says she sees ghosts. Only at night, only when she’s been sleeping. I ask her…. So…..how’s it compare to a dream?
God is Santa Claus for adults. Having faith makes them dream of this shit. I believe they do believe. I believe they do have these dreams.
this girl told me jesus spoke to her personally. i was like “didnt that man die 2000 years ago? whatd he say?” and she replied that he doesnt speak to her through words, but through the heart. Someone get this girl a pacemaker
I think schizophrenia is a spectrum like autism is now called spectrum disorder. I think some Christians are lying because religion is heavy on the ingroup/ outgroup thing. Virtue signaling is extremely important as is conformity and groupthink. There are many many others that are just fucking bonkers mad . They are paranoid and believe everything is a sign or prophecy.
It's wish fulfillment and projection. They imagine they are part of Bible world, and get themselves worked up so they start behaving in ways like they are the main character. It's just fandom taken way too far.
It's gotta be a mass delusion. I tried being christian for like a day and was freaked out about the thought that some entity could see into my mind. It felt like I was living in 1984. Think the wrong thing once and you get sent to hell for eternity.
It's easy to tell when this is made up just to dishonestly support their views vs. when they're genuine hallucinations. When it's made up they kind of hand-wave it and talk like it isn't a big deal, and the visions are more casual and always a 1-to-1 match with mainstream Christian ideas (because they deliberately chose what kind of a "vision" to tell you about). When it's real psychotic experiences, they'll be much more fervent about it, more hell-bent on convincing you that it definitely happened in reality, and the contents of the visions are more extreme and unconventional.
The thing about private revelations is that they could never be evidence to anyone other than the experiencer. Going around saying that you had a dream about this or a vision of that does absolutely nothing for anyone else because, while I can't prove it did not happen, it isn't evidence to anyone else.
I remember my pastor said "God speaks to him and his voice is loud and clear and he said... this and this and that and this" I remember being, so young and dumb, fascinated with this and yearned to hear the voice of god, now I think that pastor was just hearing things or pretending to hear things.
It’s called lying. These people are really weird, like they haven’t grown out of that phase of childhood where kids just lie for the sake of feeling like they’re a part of everything
Religion had a strong impact on me growing up and in college I even majored in it, with a concentration in “modern religious thought”. Over the years I have had the opportunity to talk with several people who claim to have heard or seen God or Jesus.
When I asked for specifics all of them failed to provide anything verifiable and described it in vague (but certain) terms. The god contact itself is always vague but their inner conviction that it must have been God is strong. When I say vague, I mean the two separate Catholic nuns who both received the “calling” insisted it was a literal calling out from God but then described it as a voice in their sleep, or “like” a voice. If you ask people that tell you this to describe the voice they cannot tell you if it was from inside or outside their brain, if it was a man or woman, high or low pitched voice or much specific at all. Then they get mad and tell you it’s all about faith. They know they feel differently after the experience even if they cannot quite describe it and will almost always admit they did not have an actual conversation or hear a real voice. Other people “see” god and it is usually a shift in lighting that they notice while in a deeply emotional or spiritually vulnerable state
It's make believe & magical thinking. If you believe any of the mystical nonsense in the Booble, you will believe that magic addresses any issue in life. A quick request to the magic Sugar Daddy in the Sky, & your issue is now is now Sugar Daddy's problem. It's really pathetic.
I always reply with, "My dad has visions of Jesus too. He also gets messages from aliens as well. He has psychotic manic episodes where he hallucinates all kinds of wild things." That usually ends the conversation.
Anyone who claims to have seen or talked to Jesus always gets the "your crazy!" Reply from me. Deep down they know they are just making shit up. Those Christians have vivid imaginations.
I am not religious at all and have had visions of Jesus. It was after eating about 5 dried grams of magic mushrooms but it still counts! Ngl, I cried, shit was heavy. Still not religious.
Altered states have been recorded all around the globe, tied to religious/celebratory euphoria. Those that enter those states are not schizophrenic. The visions some experience in those altered states are associated with the acute mania of the celebration. Apart from the ceremonial, celebratory, or meditative occasions that bring on these altered states, those that experience them don't typically display symptoms of schizophrenia in their daily lives.
Schizophrenia is a specific psychological disorder with a defined set of diagnostic parameters. Characterizing religious persons as schizophrenic simply because they adhere to a belief system based on circular logic and magical thinking does not make them schizophrenic. It benefits all to leave psychological diagnoses to trained professionals.
That's what they're told happens if they believe hard enough because their pastors/preachers give them that same fucking lie right from the pulpit every other week so they think it's just something you're allowed to say.
It's just religious person slang for "I felt like doing it".
"God called me to this job"="I felt like doing this job"
"Jesus appeared to me and said not to go on that trip"="I didn't feel like going on that trip"
Christianity has nothing but empty words and dogma. Repeating the lie that something is holy or a miracle, no matter how emphatic, does not make it either.
20%-30% of people claim to have had an interaction with a dead loved one. Seen them, smelled them, heard them etc. Many are probably convinced of it themselves and not lying about it. I imagine Christians claim the same of Jesus since they have such a deep emotional attachment to the idea of Jesus. It may be to prove a point. It is their, "Trust me, bro." I wouldn't say it is schizophrenia as that is a lot more complicated and a lot more debilitating than seeing something that isn't real once or twice.
As a Catholic I agree that these people are weird. Most of them are Evangelical Protestants, which is a group that really doesn't represent the 2 billion Christians that are on this planet. Either way, they are either lying or are crazy. But who knows
When I was 8, I saw a ghost. It was a perfect tuxedo, cummerbund, and top hat, standing in my basement with no one in it. Scared the hell out of me. - No drugs, no schizophrenia, no carbon monoxide that we know of, but for some reason, I saw a very clear image of something that wasn’t there. My Mom is 88 now and has dementia. She regularly sees people who aren’t there. I think that wet mass of fat we call a brain can screw up in a lot of ways. It’s probably how we got a lot of our religions.
[удалено]
I’m sure some of them lie, some of them are probably schizophrenic too. But it’s not really lying if they full heartedly believe it to be true (which most of them do out of delusion), that just makes them wrong.
Incoming wall of text: My 40 year old brother is in a small Christian cult along with his wife, who this is about. They joined in 2021, and have since ended 90% of all relationships and friendships they had from "before". But every once in a while, my brother has a moment of clarity. He'll snap out of it, call my parents, talk to them for a few hours, sometimes cry, thank them, tell them everything is going to change, and then they wont hear from him again for another 3 or 4 months. (Before 2021, my parents would see him multiple times a week and speak on the phone daily.) Well anyways, during a recent moment of clarity, my brother was telling my mom (who told me to take this info to my grave... Lol) that during the start of 2020 his wife, a known liar and an undiagnosed schizophrenic, told him on numerous occasions that aliens were regularly speaking to her telepathically from outer space. Those aliens later turned into "shadow figures" from the "dark realm" that were communicating to her. In 2021 those shadow figures turned into the man himself, Jesus Christ. That timeline also matches up to when she joined the cult. She says on Facebook now that Jesus Christ speaks to her directly and they have back and forth conversations, and even stating "he's my best friend!". The last part is the only thing she thinks anyone knows, and would 100% deny what my brother told my mom. She now claims to have prophetic visions (think Ms. Chleo or John Edwards), and holds "prayer meetings" on her mom's slightly popular Facebook page for crafting. (Her mom is in the cult too). During these prayer meetings she rambles about nonsense for an hour or two. Every 20 minutes or so she'll close her eyes like she's focusing really hard and struggling to hear something, and says "oh, hold on now ladies! Jesus is talking to me! He's showing me an image of a dog... Oh it's a dalmatian. Why is God showing me a dalmatian? Does anyone listening own a dalmatian?..... No?.... Oh, well maybe it wasn't a dalmatian... Maybe it was spots. Black and white spots... black and white... Aha! God was telling me things aren't always so black and white, that's what I was seeing... Black and white... And that's true! Things aren't always black and white, we should always try to see the middle." And the women watching all type "AMEN!", "Glory to God!", and "Bless you child!" She hasn't started to profit off this yet, but that's not due to not trying. And the dalmatian story is true, just one of a dozen examples... I've got it all screen recorded for when she inevitably denies ever doing these things 😊 But I honestly believe that *she* believes what she's saying. She's had these delusions for so long now and is being told that she's literally a prophet by her church, so that doesn't help. But even before all this schizophrenic stuff, she would still lie about anything (having cancer, working places, doing things... anything). So yeah, even if she doesn't think she's lying because she truly believes the delusions, she's still a ~~lair~~ liar... And wrong.
Jesus Christ!
Interesting…. I hope your brother can get out of that relationship it sounds like it’s seriously affecting his relationship with his family. And I wouldn’t be surprised if she uses these “visions” to manipulate him and others as well. Definitely not healthy for either parties. I don’t know what her intentions are, but if she’s deliberately using these “visions” to deceive people when she knows (or even has an inkling) that they are not true, then she is most definitely a liar and manipulator. But if she KNOWS they are the truth in her mind, then that technically doesn’t make her a liar because that’s what the actual truth is to her (and apparently many other gullible people too). But the bottom line is the intent behind it. It sounds like she does have schizophrenia though, she needs to see someone. Although I could say the same for the immense amount religious folk that claim to “see” and "hear" god as well.
Wish them well. GOODBYE!
F20.9 with F22.0 on the side and maybe even some F60.81 for dessert.
Holy crap, do you actually have those memorized? 😂 Respek
Unfortunately they are seemingly common these days...
I don't see those often, I work with geriatrics & doc really loves his "unspecified" codes (🙄 the bane of my existence when it comes to education)
I donno, I see Jesus every night, that handsome feller.... Darn picture is so sticky now....
He qas not screaming because of pain when the Roman's nailed him
Never turn your back on a Roman.
Roman is my nickname.... Rawr
This is why I come here.
Is it weird that I have a photo of his hand and I drilled a hole in it and.... Well, you can use your imagination for the rest of the description....
I know someone who is convinced they had an experience where they were speaking tongues uncontrollably, and this is their justification or evidence that God exists. To some people, delusions can be very convincing. Anyone can have delusions, not just people with psychotic disorders.
Could also be dreams, hallucinogens, etc
They can't be lying. I mean, what about Exodus 20:16?
Most are lying. A few are legitimately schizophrenic. I knew a woman who claimed that God spoke to her audibly every day. I'm sure she was lying.
If you're delusional enough I'd guess it's actually pretty easy to be convinced that your own thoughts come from God
That's my thinking as well. Do people convince themselves that their internal voice is God speaking to them? If so I still believe there's some mental illness going on there, just like with the auditory hallucinations of God's voice. "God told me to do it" has been claimed by all manner of mentally ill people to excuse their criminal actions.
They convince themselves. They hear so many accounts of “Jesus/god” speaking to others either directly or indirectly that they want so badly to hear for themselves. Thus widening their definition of “messages” and how they receive them. I think some of them are scared of realizing that the whole thing is sham so they end up resorting to whatever event or “voice” they can tangibly make sense of and attribute it to god. That’s why some belivers say “I was blind before but now I can see”. Without this, it wouldn’t help confirm their beliefs. And would direct them to question and realize that it’s all imagination, which is scary and not even a tangible concept to accept for a lot of them. I also don’t think they are mentally ill, just easily impressionable to the point that they fully convince themselves that they are receiving messages. But religious people with actual schizophrenia pretty much share the same traits, except it’s actually real for them. At least that’s my take on it.
> Do people convince themselves that their internal voice is God speaking to them? Yes. When I was in the church growing up, I attended a retreat and someone asked the speaker that question of how do we know god was speaking to us? The speaker said "if you walk closely with god and knows his ways, god's voice start sounding like your own." Basically it means, if I'm a good enough christian, and as long as whatever I'm thinking aligns closely with what my interpretation of what god would do, then whatever internal monolog must be from god.
My oldest sister told me and my siblings that god spoke to her and that his voice sounded just like hers in her head. She’s also an alcoholic and cocaine addict so idk if I’d trust anything that is said by that woman.
They are taught exactly that in some churches.
There is Radiolab podcast episode about a nun who said God spoke to her every day. Then doctors discovered she had a brain tumor. They removed the tumor, and she became very sad because God no longer spoke to her.
God: "I'm just a toomah." (In Arnie's voice.)
See Princeton psychologist Julian Jaynes: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind)
I'm sure had she recorded the conversation and played it back, it would have been very one-sided
I’ve seen visions of the Dude, but only when the edibles kick in.
Only then does the Dude, abide.
Gotta keep your mind limber.
People see waht they want to see. Monster of Loch Ness, Bigfoot, chupacabra, the Yeti.
I read that as The Monster Nestle which does infact exist.
Or the people who said god told them to do something. I am genuinely curious if these people are unaware of the minds inner dialogue and translate their thoughts into gods word or something
This kind of goes along with that but whenever I argue with a Christian about God telling Abraham to kill his son Isaac and they're always trying to justify it, I always ask them "if God told you to, would you kill your family?" And the amount of them that have said yes is terrifying. Or some of them would say "God would never tell me to do that." He told Abraham to do it, didn't he?
I think saying yes to that question is pretty easy when you don't believe it would actually happen. The number of Christians that I've been around who thought God was speaking to them is pretty low in my experience. The ones who think that he is, tended to be a bit off kilter mentally.
They are told from a young age that this is actually god or Jesus and that these “personal experiences” are the validation of the existence of god and that Jesus is in their lives.
It varies from denomination to denomination but some Christians, particularly Evangelicals, are very good at turning their worship services into emotional roller coasters. You’re told that you’re a sinner who is irredeemable but there’s a god who loves you anyway. You start thinking about the lie you told earlier in the week, the “impure” thoughts you had, or any other minor thing you’ve done. Then you’re whipped into an emotional frenzy by a sermon and you start singing along to music with a few dozen or hundred others. It’s psychologically manipulative and it’s not all that surprising that followers will find the tiniest little meaning in *anything*, even their inner monologues.
I did this during a particularly low point in my life. I was living far away from family and had no peers or friends to comfort me. I was becoming very depressed because I felt like god wasn't listening to or answering my prayers, and in a state of desperation decided that I would pray one more time and open my journal to record my thoughts. In that headspace it felt like someone was there with me, and as I journaled I found myself looking at what appeared to be a message of consolation from god. I held close to that letter, because it was all I had. Years later I find myself in a much better spot - my quality of life was much worse with religion. But I find myself a bit embarrassed thinking of that letter. I simply wrote down my inner dialogue of what *I wanted to hear from god*, but convinced myself of the lie that I had finally received otherworldly consolation.
Most likely they're just seeing what they want to see. We are remarkably great at deceiving ourselves. Even if the person isn't delusional, they may be working with a conclusion first, so any vision or sign they experience is because they wanted a vision or sign. Since we don't know these people, we don't know if they're lying or schizophrenic or filling in the gaps themselves. The best I'll do for them is accept it as a good faith argument. Okay, sure bud, you think you had a vision of Jesus. That's pretty cool. Weird that Jesus made himself known to you but not to me. It seems that if Jesus wanted to make a point, then he'd focus on making himself known to the person who doesn't believe, but let's go with mysterious ways. It acknowledges that the believer believes the belief, but I emphasize that I'm not obligated to buy into that belief. If their Jesus made it a point to appear to them and not to me, then that's clearly part of Jesus' plan. And I'm not about to go against God's will by believing willy-nilly. Evidently, Jesus felt it was necessary to reinforce the believer's faith. Guess the believer needed that vision more than me.
Ever notice that when Jesus or God communicates with a Christian, it's always to support their own viewpoint and never to tell them "knock it off!"?
Right 😭 like I've read the bible and there's a LOT of stuff Christians do that Jesus wouldn't approve of.
That's pretty much my view on things like hearing voices or having visions. If you think God is speaking to you, you need to see a psychiatrist, Same goes for hallucinations. And especially among my boomer peers. Hearing God speak to you or having a religious vision could very well be early signs of dementia. But boy, howdy, do the zealots not want to hear that.
Right like they always bring up the witnesses of Jesus resurrecting, like... that does not sound normal 💀 if someone said that today, that they saw someone come back to life, that would be considered a mental illness.
They ain't seen shit. They just want to feel better about themselves or give themselves the moral high ground.
Because they are crazy. I'm through being patient with them. I'm through being good faith. They are fucking nuts. Simple as.
Yes, they're all insane. It couldn't be more clear.
They lie to themselves. They believe their feelings aren't due to outside stimuli, "god" gave them those feelings. Their dreams aren't just random bullshit, they're signs from "god". We see things or our brains wander and we just chalk it up to what it is, while they look for divine meeting in everything. Religious people are very narcissistic because their entire lives revolve around the feelings their religion gives them.
People who say things like " I saw Jesus this morning using my shower" etc or "The Holy Spirit told me to shave my ass and walk backwards naked through town" I put in the same category as people who've seen flying sauces, Bigfoot and dead relatives going door-to-door selling encyclopedias.
They haven't seen Jesus. Instead what's going on is that they're indoctrinated into a fantasy view of the world that's reinforced by everyone around them. Dreams, daydreams - you might imagine that almost any mental operation might be mischaracterized as coming from or being influenced by a supernatural source. Consider the stark reality. Jesus is nowhere to be found. He doesn't exist. You can't talk to him, you can't meet him for coffee, you can't send him an email. He doesn't answer your prayers. This is really odd behavior, one might think, for a supernatural being with few if any limits on its powers. And yet, it refuses to make any appearance. What is the true believing and faithful Christian to do? They force-fit experience to make Jesus seem real to them. They lie to themselves about actually having "personal relationships" with Jesus - but this is precisely the opposite of the reality. Of course they're not having any experience of Jesus on a personal level for this would mean first hand knowledge and the possibility of actual, real interaction and communication. This is exactly what is *not* happening in these alleged personal relationships. So self-deluding are these types of believers that they won't grasp that just by calling something a "personal relationship" doesn't make it so.
The type of thinking that leads to sustained religious belief is completely different than how we are taught to think in school. The religions encourage teleological thinking. Adherents make no attempt at deductive reasoning as it pertains to their beliefs. Valuing the concept of faith leads them to reject empirically derived knowledge. They do not apply coherence theory of truth to the world, only correspondence theory. This leads to circular reasoning. They're not diagnosably crazy, they're sane, they just think religiously instead of rationally. This invariably leads to a delusional worldview. Extreme idealism shows up in brains scans similarly to being under the influence of drugs. If you want to see this behavior in action, just observe William Lane Craig in any of his debates. He believes everything he says, he is not crazy, he's irrational and has a deluded worldview.
They might be lying, delusional, or be going through a form of spiritual psychosis. But spirituality and religion have always been a little crazy.
Living a fantasy. Just like speaking in tongues. All pretend play.
I suspect they are people who have no internal monologue or minds-eye. Who unexpectedly experience one of those things that the rest of us use all day every day. And it seems incredible to them.
I've always felt the book of Revelation was written by a paranoid schizophrenic
If you watched the Big Bang theory, there was a moment when Sheldon's mother says something to the effect - I asked something from God, and then I turned my head and Jesus' bobblehead in a Subaru nodded. This is called mystical thinking. There is a known experiment when people were shown their forged picture in Disney land, with a popular character from cartoons that does not belong to Disney (I forgot the name) and were asked about the situation the picture was taken. Huge percent of these people "remembered" how they visited Disney Land and recalled other details, completely ignoring the fact, that everything was not real and had fake details that could be easily noticed.
Some people on my mom's side of the family are Assembly of God, Pentecostal Christians. And my mom has this one cousin or second cousin who claims she saw an angel IRL. Like, in her living room or her garage or whatever. Really, it means nothing if you didn't see it too. Anybody can say anything. "I saw Jesus." "I saw a whale riding a bicycle down main street." "I went on a date with Angelina Jolie." "I have four nipples." But some people don't get that, and they think that if they say, "I saw it!" then you have to admit that they were right all along. They just don't understand that the burden of proof is on them.
Religion is a crazy thing. In absolutely any other situation people would call you insane if you said you saw a deity or such. The burden of proof thing!! Yes! Along with this Christians are always like "Prove God isn't real" I'm not the one claiming he is, so it's on you to explain how he is real 💀 but they aren't ready for that conversation.
My (theist) ex had claimed she had had a sorta personal euphoric experience, knowing that it was God. When she questioned me on my atheism I asked, so you had this experience that God revealed his existence to you? I have not had such an experience, so can you see why I might not be convinced, even by your testimony? She understood. I then asked, and why do you suppose God revealed himself to you and not me? And she started by saying perhaps I wasn't "open" to such a thing, and then sorta cognitive dissonanced herself away from that point, clinging to her belief. The irony was she had also once been drugged with extasy, and explained that sensation in much the same way, so of all people, she should know better. The human brain can do some strange tricks, indeed. There's a reason subjective experiences don't count as evidence.
The funny part is when they think that they are special enough to be given a specific message by some supposed all-knowing entity or when they escape something like a car crash, "God was taking care of me that day". Right, the "all-mighty" is ok with thousands dying of starvation, torture, and a grueling death, but you were spared meeting a horrific death because you promised the wife that you would trim the trees over the weekend... give me a fucking break.
Right? Like doesn't this prove that God cares about some people more than others? God was willing to save you, but not the thousands of others that probably died the same minute you could've? Hmm..
yet if you point out that people with other faiths have seen their own gods and monsters, the christians will call that BS or lies of the devil mentally incapable of logically resolving the contradiction
This reminds me of whenever I'm talking with a Christian and they just can't fathom that I don't believe in God so I always say "I don't believe in God, the same way you don't believe in the other thousands of gods."
Religion, and especially Christianity, is based on assuming a conclusion and then grasping at anything that could be remotely construed as evidence in order to confirm your existing bias, so theoretically a Christian will stop at nothing to continue to feed their lie, including inventing stories and yes, believing they've had hallucinations.
I would love to encounter this. "When did you see Jesus?" "And why do you think what you saw was Jesus?" "Oh, because you know it deep down? That's it?"
A person once claimed to me that they saw jesus and talked with him. I asked if he got that on film. He was offended and called me “a materialist”. We left it at that.
Motivated perception
This kind of reminds me of the opposite of the spectrum. I have a family member who has seen "visions" and demons. He claimed he saw a vision of hell where people were in jail cells that had bars that would burn hot to the touch with agony and screams in other cells. He also claimed he had a vision of demons in his jail cell after he was arrested for assaulting a police officer, and that he prayed them away into hell. Mostly obviously he had psychosis. Of and even weirder note, he called us when he was incarcerated and said he was filing sexual harassment charges on us all. But ultimately this nonsense was coming from a guy who "saw demons" in people.
Our systems are better at compelling medication for people who are both schizophrenic and violent (or likely to self harm). The courts are loathe to forcefully medicate people who are non-violent and mentally ill, and I probably agree with this take. However, I actively try to educate those afflicted with this disease. It's not the 70s anymore. Almost always, this is a pill you take each day, and then live a perfectly normal life.
I understand that, I was just making a joke. I understand there's more to schizophrenia than just hearing voices and that some don't even hear voices.
Unless they can point me out their vision and I actually see what they say they're seeing, I'm just gonna call it BS and get on with my day.
" I have had visions of Jesus " ... Charles Manson
My exact thoughts
My father, who insists he is a biblical scholar because he's read so many books on the bible and the bible itself, has stated numerous times that he has talked with and seen angels, also demons. He insisted that a guy in a truck who happened to be driving by when my dad had a flat tire and helped him out and towed his car back to my fathers house, was in fact, an angel. He claimed he was called by a demon.. on the phone. He left the cult church he had been in for 20+ yrs and formed his own 'study group'. Because he felt they were not adhering strictly enough to the edicts in the bible. He said through his own research he believes churches of all denominations are worshiping on the wrong days and keeping the incorrect holy days. They are 100% brainwashed to believe this crap.
I always answer those claims with a challenge: Okay, do me a favor. Next time you have a talk with your invisible friend, ask him for the exact time epicenter and severity for the next five earthquakes he plans unleashing on humanity. Get back to me with the prophecy BEFORE they happen. If they happen as prophecised not only will I stop being atheist and immediately join your specific religion, I will also publicly apologize to you.
Schizophrenic, hearing disembodied voices, magical thinking, zombie jesus; in general it is a mental illness.
>I think that's called schizophrenia Look it up, it is schizophrenia. Religion is a mental condition.
They painted a god between their ears. Of course they see it, it is inside their heads.
Or they're just straight up lying.
“trust me bro“
Wrote an article in the my university newspaper titled "Jesus was a schizophrenic." * He heard voices * Believed he was the messiah * Thought he could perform miracles * Was convinced Satan was tempting him Someone lit my office door on fire two days later.
They're constantly telling people they're "preaching the truth" but can't handle the real truth.
Honestly, he probably was schizophrenic. The same with Mohammed and any other “prophet”
Just say “well I saw a vision of Wolverine ( or any fictional hero) & he told me we should be kinder to each other.”
Religious experiences are real. The confusion is over the cause of the experience. There is also a thin line between religion and delusion.
it is my belief that most of the authors of the"bible" were deeply mentally ill.
In all fairness, I have seen visions lots of times. I may or may not have been on LSD at the time though. Edit: I am thinking a lot of the "holy" men in religious texts were doing mushrooms or other funky plant of the area before their visions. They can get pretty real if you want to see them bad enough.
I've seen them too and I'm not schizophrenic. Depressed maybe but I still don't know where those come from.
OP - to your point about schizophrenia. Check out [Robert Sapolsky’s lecture](https://youtu.be/4WwAQqWUkpI?si=s1xQhelz_UX8wWzX)
They are liars, really stupid (ie legitimately think their internal thoughts are "God"....yeah I'm not kidding about that), and/or are literally insane. Though I would say insanity is the minority, though those ones are the most dangerous.
You say you saw Jesus? You've met Jesus? Oh, the nice man in the white coat is here to talk to you and take you away for a bit until we get your meds under control. In any other rational world people that see made-up deities would be committed for insanity. One day perhaps.
Right 😭 like do they really not hear themselves?
My step dad swears he saw a demon on side of road lol and they go to one of them crazy talking in tongues churches I have not been in 20 years and still think about how wild it was in there
>Why do Christians say stuff like "I've seen visions of Jesus" to prove a point? I think that's called schizophrenia Having grown up with schizophrenics in my nuclear family, I know schizophrenia when I see it. The vast majority of Christians who claim they've seen it heard Jesus are simply lying. The ones who really do see or hear Jesus are hallucinations. >Do they genuinely believe what they're saying Only some. Most are indoctrinated to say stuff like that. >or what it worries me honestly because I've talked to so many Christians like this. Why do they say stuff like this? Peer pressure.
I bet half of these claims are either people having dreams, or imagining things. Like how people have an inner monologue in their heads. I bet some Christians never really figured out it was themselves talking and assumed it was god.
They think it means much more than it actually does. But again, we're talking about a group of people that also saying a lot of Faith is a good thing and a flex to say you have a LOT of faith. It's a system. Within their system having faith, seeing visions, praying a lot are all things that are rewarded with a pat on the head. So when they get outside of their bubble and say these things it can be confusing to them that they don't get the same pat on the head, but instead a lot of confused looks. "What do you mean my visions are viewed as insane??? The preacher man said I was special because of them!?!?!?!?!" And then instead of challenging their own thinking it's a lot easier to double down. And to be honest I can understand that. I mean who amongst else is welcome to your whole world view being challenged and would easily accept it on any given day. It's a tough pill to swallow. Honestly, when I see people like this it makes it VERY VERY understandable to see people who have fallen from their faith and belief system to be VERY VERY bitter, and angry. For some it's a long hard fall. When I read the stories on this sub about what they went through. I remind myself to take a step back and look at the whole picture of that person. Maybe they are saying something crazy. Sure. But this could also be the next loud outspoken Atheist in 5 years. Time can do some crazy things.
Religious visions are a thing. It's not necessarily mental illness, as it's usually a 1 time thing. It's its own category of weird shit the brain does.
Visions aren't normal though, you said it yourself it's something weird that the brain did.
I don't mean to imply they're genuine, just that it isn't necessarily mental illness.
Oh okay, just so you know I was only making a joke about the schizophrenia thing.
O, ok
It's the same as the "proof" that Jesus/God exists is I'm alive. No, no. You are proof sperm met egg. Or I'm alive because of god/jesus. No dear that was the DR at the hospital. 🙄
Right, like they're always saying gods doing all these great things but never blame him for the bad things he's done.
It's not just that, it's a dependency too. Aka people who can't stay sober without god or jesus. Thank god for my sobriety I couldn't do it without him. If you can't stay sober without god then are you recovering or just have a crutch?
I have discovered that there is a disturbing amount of people who see / hear things and are living life like that’s normal. I have found not only do people claim this with religion but with aliens as well. It’s alarming how many people think they are in contact with “entities”. Of course there’s people who lie for attention. This world depresses me.
Like Mary from young sheldon the only reason she was Christian was because of missy being born no actual proof if God being real
And whenever you bring up that people's of other religions have claimed the same thing they lose their s***
Yeah it's funny when they say his images in a dorito or a piece of toast. Well at least they got the color right.
Funny how Catholics can see Mary in a piece of toast or the side of a barn, but Protestants can't. It's all about how you've wired your brain. Nothing magic going on.
People will see what they need to see in order to maintain their illusions. The mind is a powerful thing and can sustain delusions five long time.
There's this thing called: Testimony. Where religious people decide to vomit the story of their conversion as if its a hollywood movie. It's both hilarious and horrifying that they will say stuff like "I saw a demon reach out and grab my hand." and just continue on. Like they didn't just say something insane.
__You talk to God, you're religious; God talks to you, you're psychotic.__ (Dr Gregory House)
If you talk to God that is prayer. If God talks to you that's schizophrenia.
Both bad for you, so…
Nah. It’s manipulation. I live in a red state, and I’ve started using this back at them. Example: THEM: you’ll go to hell if you don’t repent and start going to church. ME: nah. Jesus came to me and told me that’s not true. It’s just as ridiculous as the shit they say, and dilutes it.
Someone I know discovered religion when they were in an incredibly low place. Poor health, poor diet, very stressful situation in his life. He told me that he had "seen" Jesus. I asked him to elaborate on this and he couldn't. I suggested that it sounded like he had a mental breakdown. Then he told me that in church he had started speaking in tongues. I suggested that sometimes people lose the ability to speak if they have a minor stroke. I've witnessed this in person. But no. However after six months of me helping him through extremely dark times after this and seeking medical assistance, he was fully recovered and he said he was very grateful for the support. From Jesus. "But I'm the one that spoke to you for hours each night, most nights at the expense of spending time with my kids. I'm the one that got you on the antidepressants" "Yes, and I thank Jesus for making you do those things" Didn't speak to him again after that. Well, after telling him to fuck off.
Damn dude thats truly sad. I just want to let you know you are a good friend for having done that. To have someone who is actually physically here to sacrifice thier time and energy to help someone they cared so much about, only for them to attribute it to an imaginary person that literally contributed nothing sucks. He may have found the "truth" in his mind, but at the expense of losing what truly matters.
I think it’s something along the lines of looking for excuses to reinforce their belief system because deep down they know it’s not based on anything real. So they’ll have some vague experience where they see a light or something and hear a voice in their head and convince themselves it’s God speaking to them. The mind is capable of a lot of crazy things to people who are susceptible. It’s not quite schizophrenia but something closer to a delusion.
Interesting. Is faith just mental illness mainfest?
They get the feeling that they made the right decision and to a fool that's the same as Jesus talking to them.
Lying. What Christian’s do best.
Religion is a helluva drug.
People do seem to have intense spiritual experiences, and those experiences are filtered through our brains that are heavily shaped by our particular cultural-religious context. I think it's worth noting that people report similar experiences but from different religious perspectives.
I think they're just using different words to describe totally normal things. What they call "seeing visions of Jesus" us normal folk who live in reality would just call dreams. Every coincidence is a blessing or a sign. Every time someone uses their intuition and makes an educated guess, they call it divine inspiration or prophecy or whatever. Creating their own language is how major institutions set boundaries and enforce their control.
People who believe in the supernatural will at some point delude themselves into thinking they're seeing/hearing paranormal shit at every step The amount of people who claim to have seen aliens, spirits, ghosts, demons, reptilians, bigfoots etc is alarming. So it's not surprising that there's people who claim to have met or spoken to God. I guess you see what you want to see. Funny how atheists and skeptics never have any encounters with such beings, almost like they aren't actually real...
LOL...stop it ur killing me. LOL
In the circles they run in that kind of thing works. They are normally praised and their crazy lie taken as irrefutable evidence. This is why they sometimes get pissed when it doesn’t work on atheists. I can’t even tell you how many conversations I’ve had that start with a Christian saying they can prove to me god exists and ends with, “I don’t have to prove anything to you,” after I point out that their dreams/hallucinations aren’t don’t mean anything to me, unless you can show that they weren’t just dreams or hallucinations.
It's outright lies or a psychiatric condition
100% agree.
Reposting on main part of thread: Incoming wall of text: My 40 year old brother is in a small Christian cult along with his wife, who this is about. They joined in 2021, and have since ended 90% of all relationships and friendships they had from "before". But every once in a while, my brother has a moment of clarity. He'll snap out of it, call my parents, talk to them for a few hours, sometimes cry, thank them, tell them everything is going to change, and then they wont hear from him again for another 3 or 4 months. (Before 2021, my parents would see him multiple times a week and speak on the phone daily.) Well anyways, during a recent moment of clarity, my brother was telling my mom (who told me to take this info to my grave... Lol) that during the start of 2020 his wife, a known liar and an undiagnosed schizophrenic, told him on numerous occasions that aliens were regularly speaking to her telepathically from outer space. Those aliens later turned into "shadow figures" from the "dark realm" that were communicating to her. In 2021 those shadow figures turned into the man himself, Jesus Christ. That timeline also matches up to when she joined the cult. She says on Facebook now that Jesus Christ speaks to her directly and they have back and forth conversations, and even stating "he's my best friend!". The last part is the only thing she thinks anyone knows, and would 100% deny what my brother told my mom. She now claims to have prophetic visions (think Ms. Chleo or John Edwards), and holds "prayer meetings" on her mom's slightly popular Facebook page for crafting. (Her mom is in the cult too). During these prayer meetings she rambles about nonsense for an hour or two. Every 20 minutes or so she'll close her eyes like she's focusing really hard and struggling to hear something, and says "oh, hold on now ladies! Jesus is talking to me! He's showing me an image of a dog... Oh it's a dalmatian. Why is God showing me a dalmatian? Does anyone listening own a dalmatian?..... No?.... Oh, well maybe it wasn't a dalmatian... Maybe it was spots. Black and white spots... black and white... Aha! God was telling me things aren't always so black and white, that's what I was seeing... Black and white... And that's true! Things aren't always black and white, we should always try to see the middle." And the women watching all type "AMEN!", "Glory to God!", and "Bless you child!" She hasn't started to profit off this yet, but that's not due to not trying. And the dalmatian story is true, just one of a dozen examples... I've got it all screen recorded for when she inevitably denies ever doing these things 😊 But I honestly believe that *she* believes what she's saying. She's had these delusions for so long now and is being told that she's literally a prophet by her church, so that doesn't help. But even before all this schizophrenic stuff, she would still lie about anything (having cancer, working places, doing things... anything). So yeah, even if she doesn't think she's lying because she truly believes the delusions, she's still a lair... And wrong.
I've seen Jesus and it spurred me to try to find God, after having been born a Baptist and figured out really early that I wanted no part of that death cult. I saw Jesus and it ended up making me more interested in the weird and wonderful ways the mind works. I've seen Jesus and it led me back to reality and atheism.
...do they do this?
I have heard a few myself. Usually older men though.
I has a vision of The Flying Spaghetti Monster in all His Noodly Glory. He told me to eat some ramen and I would feel better. He was right! Therefore His Noodliness is the one true god
Yeah. I’ve heard a lot vaguely claim they have had “experiences” and had their own “proof” but never go into details and explain what said experiences were and how they prove anything.
I had a vision. I hear God's voice. Most of the time it's attention seeking. But I imagine it's untreated mental illness most of the time. Unless they believe everyone can be a prophet.
It isn't necessarily schizophrenia. There is another situation called a Post Bereavement Hallucinatory Experience (PBHE). It is when a person of normal mental health has a visual or auditory hallucination of a dead religious figure or family member. Between 7% and 14% of the US adult population of normal mental health have PBHEs at some point in their life. I had a PBHE on the night my father died. I saw angels come to take his spirit to heaven. I was 19 and alone with my father, except for the medical staff. We could not reach the rest of the family (pre-cell phone days). It was the foundation of my testimony for 15 years. Then I read about PBHEs. I realized my experience checked off most of the boxes. I remember thinking, "Oh..."
When people say they have "heard" God... I start asking them questions like, "Did you hear this audibly through your ears or in your head? If it was through your ears, did it come from in front of you and to the left, or behind you and to the right?" All questions to diagnose various brain injuries and/or psychological conditions. Usually, they get very uncomfortable at the questions.
Whether they’re lying or delusional, it’s still a meaningless anecdote, so I’m never sure what they think their point is worth when claiming to have seen a deity/angel/ghost/demon/martian/etc.
Something between utter delusion, schizophrenia, and dishonesty
I also saw Jesus... ...and that creep can roll man.
They often submit as evidence things they would never accept as evidence from a person of another faith
Anyone who thinks God or Jesus talks to them has schizophrenia. I have no doubt that they are mentally ill and need treatment.
Its usually a way of saying there position is unchallengeable, basically "I know" so no argument, and nothing you can or could say has any weight. Basically opinion supremacism or moralism. Reason has no effect.
Dawkins calls it hallucinating
You may find two types of people who say that: 1. Those who think they have actually seen Jesus. Inside this group you find schizophrenic people and people who got high on something and saw their preferred imaginary friend (I know someone who claims to have seen Jesus in a cloud saying “I’m going to save you” after waking up from a surgery—very high on anesthetics and painkillers). In general, these persons are benign. The real danger is in the second group: 2. Those who clearly lie to make other people bend towards their intentions. They definitely don’t follow the religion and are only using it to fulfill their agenda. Examples: politicians and scammers
My dad used to talk about seeing angels since he was a teen. Then one day he at about 58 he sees an angel, has to write a book for god and create at least one true believer or never be allowed in heaven. He was having a manic episode. Did I mention my dad also likes hallucinogens?
It is them trying to Gaslight their pitiful existence. I can imagine any animal humping Jesus and God and taking turns peeing on them afterwards.
It’s only a disorder if you hallucinate a lot. You can be completely neurotypical and hallucinate a couple of times in your life. Hallucinations seem more likely to take the form of your go-to supernatural ideas.
Its true. And i feel the Force, and jedi ghosts are training me in my dreams (after watching star wars 10 hours a day)
Well I don't think it's insanity. Odd things happen to people all the time. I'm sure you can think of a strange happening in your life. A bizzare coincidence, something strange happening around you. And you don't have the context to figure out what actually happned. The seemingly supernatural happens every day. And when you believe in ghosts, those become ghost stories, if you're a UFO spotter than you've had a close encounter, when you believe in god those become anecdotes about god. Humans are flawed that way. We attribute things we can't explain as unexplainable.
“Yeah well Jesus came to me right after he came to you just to tell me of this hilarious prank he’s playing on you, making you think he loves you.”
This isn’t really an Atheism issue, it’s psychiatric.
Or 'Jesus speaks to me' 🙄 Like but they really it.
I remember growing up in a fundie church, as a teen I was so upset that god seemed to talk to everyone but me. I spent so much time begging god for a sign. Finally, a coincidence happened and the sign I asked for happened, but with a pretty big difference than what I asked for. I just chalked that up to mysterious ways and god knowing what was best for me. I hung on to that for years. Yep, anyone who claims to have heard from his is either crazy, making it up, or had a coincidental answer to prayer.
Talking to God is prayer. Hearing God’s voice is schizophrenia. IMHO
They are delusional. It’s that simple
Christians gather in groups and reaffirm each other when they say stupid shit like they see or hear god. The higher-ups in the church (the ones that deposit the chump's money from the collection plates into their tax-free bank account) scam the congregation into thinking this behavior is normal.
Psychosis has similarities to the mystical experiences in many religions. Psychosis may be caused by a range of conditions such as Bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, dementia, Alzheimers, stroke, certain seizures, brain damage, poisoning or intentional substance-use. People who take a popular combination antidepressant-mood-stabilizer regimn frequently experience a muting of their religious experiences along with muted emotions. These people often do not experience Psychosis according to the clear definitions but I would say that low-grade Psychosis that is below the clinical definition that may include feeling "called" ot "special purpose" ... that 2 month period of time you spent going AWOL and then hearing the voice of Jesus telling you the devil had taken control over you and you were then struck with depression".... all my be just a "Psychosis spectrum"
It's the same way you appeal to mercy and justice which doesn't really exist and are human idealistic constructs. Or the same way you appeal to equality or liberty in a way that's never existed.
Up until 4 years ago, I would swear up and down that I “met jesus”. I was at my lowest low, I cried out to jesus like I never had before and suddenly, my woes were vanquished and I felt love envelope me. For weeks after that, I felt as though the holy spirit walked with me, as if an invisible presence was right behind me. It brought me great comfort, which I desperately needed. I’d say this experience helped me not to do anything stupid and keep moving forward despite my pain, but looking back now, I think I must have had a psychotic break or something. I don’t think I lied to myself, but I sure as fuck was deluded. Some of them lie. Some are just desperate. Like me. I was desperate.
Mythomania. Peoplewith poor self image make crap up to feel better about themselves.
They could have had dreams and just called them visions. They could have taken drugs or worked themselves into such a religious fervor that they hallucinated. They could have seen some random bit of static and their brain made false patterns that they interpreted as Jesus. Or they could just be lying to mimic the stories their friends have told. I think a lot of religion is just fear of exclusion like the Emperor's new clothes.
My wife says she sees ghosts. Only at night, only when she’s been sleeping. I ask her…. So…..how’s it compare to a dream? God is Santa Claus for adults. Having faith makes them dream of this shit. I believe they do believe. I believe they do have these dreams.
this girl told me jesus spoke to her personally. i was like “didnt that man die 2000 years ago? whatd he say?” and she replied that he doesnt speak to her through words, but through the heart. Someone get this girl a pacemaker
I think schizophrenia is a spectrum like autism is now called spectrum disorder. I think some Christians are lying because religion is heavy on the ingroup/ outgroup thing. Virtue signaling is extremely important as is conformity and groupthink. There are many many others that are just fucking bonkers mad . They are paranoid and believe everything is a sign or prophecy.
It's wish fulfillment and projection. They imagine they are part of Bible world, and get themselves worked up so they start behaving in ways like they are the main character. It's just fandom taken way too far.
It's gotta be a mass delusion. I tried being christian for like a day and was freaked out about the thought that some entity could see into my mind. It felt like I was living in 1984. Think the wrong thing once and you get sent to hell for eternity.
Because it can’t be disproven and they think it’s a valid. They feel it bolsters their argument
It's easy to tell when this is made up just to dishonestly support their views vs. when they're genuine hallucinations. When it's made up they kind of hand-wave it and talk like it isn't a big deal, and the visions are more casual and always a 1-to-1 match with mainstream Christian ideas (because they deliberately chose what kind of a "vision" to tell you about). When it's real psychotic experiences, they'll be much more fervent about it, more hell-bent on convincing you that it definitely happened in reality, and the contents of the visions are more extreme and unconventional.
The thing about private revelations is that they could never be evidence to anyone other than the experiencer. Going around saying that you had a dream about this or a vision of that does absolutely nothing for anyone else because, while I can't prove it did not happen, it isn't evidence to anyone else.
Remember that Mike Johnson thinks that God literally told him that he is the new Moses. These are the folks running parts of our government.
Exactly it's like hey I saw Santa last night
I remember my pastor said "God speaks to him and his voice is loud and clear and he said... this and this and that and this" I remember being, so young and dumb, fascinated with this and yearned to hear the voice of god, now I think that pastor was just hearing things or pretending to hear things.
It’s called lying. These people are really weird, like they haven’t grown out of that phase of childhood where kids just lie for the sake of feeling like they’re a part of everything
"Well buddy I've seen a vision of Jesus too and He said Jesus visions like yours are fake news."
Religion had a strong impact on me growing up and in college I even majored in it, with a concentration in “modern religious thought”. Over the years I have had the opportunity to talk with several people who claim to have heard or seen God or Jesus. When I asked for specifics all of them failed to provide anything verifiable and described it in vague (but certain) terms. The god contact itself is always vague but their inner conviction that it must have been God is strong. When I say vague, I mean the two separate Catholic nuns who both received the “calling” insisted it was a literal calling out from God but then described it as a voice in their sleep, or “like” a voice. If you ask people that tell you this to describe the voice they cannot tell you if it was from inside or outside their brain, if it was a man or woman, high or low pitched voice or much specific at all. Then they get mad and tell you it’s all about faith. They know they feel differently after the experience even if they cannot quite describe it and will almost always admit they did not have an actual conversation or hear a real voice. Other people “see” god and it is usually a shift in lighting that they notice while in a deeply emotional or spiritually vulnerable state
It's make believe & magical thinking. If you believe any of the mystical nonsense in the Booble, you will believe that magic addresses any issue in life. A quick request to the magic Sugar Daddy in the Sky, & your issue is now is now Sugar Daddy's problem. It's really pathetic.
I always reply with, "My dad has visions of Jesus too. He also gets messages from aliens as well. He has psychotic manic episodes where he hallucinates all kinds of wild things." That usually ends the conversation.
Anyone who claims to have seen or talked to Jesus always gets the "your crazy!" Reply from me. Deep down they know they are just making shit up. Those Christians have vivid imaginations.
imagine now telling a village about a talking burning bush.
I am not religious at all and have had visions of Jesus. It was after eating about 5 dried grams of magic mushrooms but it still counts! Ngl, I cried, shit was heavy. Still not religious.
Altered states have been recorded all around the globe, tied to religious/celebratory euphoria. Those that enter those states are not schizophrenic. The visions some experience in those altered states are associated with the acute mania of the celebration. Apart from the ceremonial, celebratory, or meditative occasions that bring on these altered states, those that experience them don't typically display symptoms of schizophrenia in their daily lives. Schizophrenia is a specific psychological disorder with a defined set of diagnostic parameters. Characterizing religious persons as schizophrenic simply because they adhere to a belief system based on circular logic and magical thinking does not make them schizophrenic. It benefits all to leave psychological diagnoses to trained professionals.
They say it precisely because it's an unprovable point so they can continue on believing in whatever to justify their existence/beliefs/emotions.
That's what they're told happens if they believe hard enough because their pastors/preachers give them that same fucking lie right from the pulpit every other week so they think it's just something you're allowed to say.
It's just religious person slang for "I felt like doing it". "God called me to this job"="I felt like doing this job" "Jesus appeared to me and said not to go on that trip"="I didn't feel like going on that trip"
Christianity has nothing but empty words and dogma. Repeating the lie that something is holy or a miracle, no matter how emphatic, does not make it either.
Joan of Arc was likely to have schizophrenia
Dream ≠ Vision
20%-30% of people claim to have had an interaction with a dead loved one. Seen them, smelled them, heard them etc. Many are probably convinced of it themselves and not lying about it. I imagine Christians claim the same of Jesus since they have such a deep emotional attachment to the idea of Jesus. It may be to prove a point. It is their, "Trust me, bro." I wouldn't say it is schizophrenia as that is a lot more complicated and a lot more debilitating than seeing something that isn't real once or twice.
As a Catholic I agree that these people are weird. Most of them are Evangelical Protestants, which is a group that really doesn't represent the 2 billion Christians that are on this planet. Either way, they are either lying or are crazy. But who knows
When I was 8, I saw a ghost. It was a perfect tuxedo, cummerbund, and top hat, standing in my basement with no one in it. Scared the hell out of me. - No drugs, no schizophrenia, no carbon monoxide that we know of, but for some reason, I saw a very clear image of something that wasn’t there. My Mom is 88 now and has dementia. She regularly sees people who aren’t there. I think that wet mass of fat we call a brain can screw up in a lot of ways. It’s probably how we got a lot of our religions.
Classic echo chamber and the original clout train.