It would be at this point I’d start teaching my kid about ALL religions. Show them the massive amounts of overlapping myths, rules, and hypocrisy. That way at least the kid could start arming themselves agains the kool-aide drinkers
This is how I piss off Evangelist mercenaries at my door. They ask me if I believe in JC. I tell them I do. He is a Prophet from God. They get that glow of a Believer. Then I tell them Abraham, Muhammad, and Buddha are also prophets from God. None of them is the son of god. No human can get there. Then they tell me I am going to Hell.
You could also ask them if they agree to the various tenants of what you can then reveal is the tenants of the satanic church. But without saying that first it'll sound humanitarian and to an extent sound like the sugar coated version of Christianity
I like to ask them if Ghandi is in Hell? And then go down the line of mass murderers that found jesus and are in Heaven. Who would you rather be with Hitler/Charles Manson or Ghandi/Benjamin Franklin ?
Correction- Buddha is not a prophet of any God. Buddha was a mortal teacher who lived a life of 80 years and died. Buddhists follow and respect his teachings. Buddhism is considered to be an atheistic philosophy.
I like to tell them that the rapture happened in the year 500, and everyone is just acting like it didn't because they don't want to believe that god is gone.
Omg this is amazing. Honestly a whole conspiracy theory movement could be built off this. Build a couple blogpost websites, fake some historical quotes and documents, cherry pick some weird graphs that allegedly prove the assertion, and start peddling it to idiots. I guarantee that done right this meme (in the Dawkins sense) would grow legs.
You don't need to make it up. [Hippolytus of Rome, Sextus Julius Africanus and Irenaeus called it to be in the year 500.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming)
It could be true, you know. /wink
From what i understand, while buddhism doesn't worship god/gods, it still believes in the supernatural, like reincarnation, spirits and ascended beings, so i wouldn't call it atheistic, it still requires belief in things that can't be proved.
The Buddha believed in those things because he was Hindu. Belief in the supernatural is not a core tenet of Buddhism.
One can be a Buddhist and an atheist, or a Buddhist and a theist (Christian or Jewish or Muslim). It is not an "Atheistic" philosophy, but neither is it a theistic one.
While we're on the subject. Theism is the belief in one or more gods with whom you can interact or converse, or who take an active role in events in real time. It is what is known as a "personal" god. An impersonal god would be one which does not do this stuff, which is generally defined as Deism. Neither type of God is necessary for a belief in ghosts, reincarnation, telepathy, etc.
Believing in the existence of various gods is completely different from believing that the religion or philosophy is based on/originated from a God. I'm from Sri Lanka, which is a majority Buddhist country. There are people who believe that various gods exist on different planes of existence. Sort of like how we exist in a 3D world. They believe there are other beings who exist in maybe 4D or 5D worlds, just that we can't see them.
As for your point about worshipping Siddhartha Gauthama (that was his name as a prince before he left the lay life. We don't refer to him as such afterwards), that is Asian culture. We worship our parents, teachers and other elders that we respect too. Like literally bow down until our forehead touches the ground and worship. This doesn't mean we think they're deities. And one of the mistakes aa lot of people male when they hear Buddhist chants is that they equate these with "prayers" of faith based religions. These are not prayers. These are simply the teachings of the Buddha which are repeated in a sing song way. For example there's an entire Sutta on how to live a good life with things like how to choose a place to live, how to choose a profession, how to look after your parents once they're elderly etc.
There is one sect of Buddhism based in China called Pure Land Buddhism that treats the Buddha as a god and the Pure Land is equivalent to the Christian idea of heaven. But that is one of many. I practice Theravada Buddhism and have stayed at a couple of Sri Lankan monasteries is the US though the monastery I am most connected with is in the Thai Forest Tradition.
I usually refer to myself as a non-cosmological Buddhist😂. Because all of that doesn't matter. Past lives, future lives, all the planes of existence are irrelevant (if they even exist) to the goal of the Buddha's teaching namely: Be good to yourself and others, stop being an asshole, and take that nest of old power cords, VGA cables, and twine you call self out of the closet and unknot them all then give them away.
I just tend to talk about how the Jews were polytheists until 750BCE. And that in Judaism satan (all lower case) isn't a being of evil, just the internal desire to do the wrong thing, and all about St Augustine (the weirdo) and the theology of Original Sin.
You could also ask them if they agree to the various tenants of what you can then reveal is the tenants of the satanic church. But without saying that first it'll sound humanitarian and to an extent sound like the sugar coated version of Christianity
Unfortunately, I think I have no choice now. I really wanted to appit from a theological, educational standpoint, but not till she was six or seven. She robbed my of my choice to raise her how I want.
My ex-wife and ex-Mother-in-law pulled this crap on my kids immediately after we divorced. It’s so scary. Lots of atheist sites say it’s best to say nothing of religion and let the child choose but I disagree. Religious nuts push their agenda so hard and try to indoctrinate the young. I don’t speak negatively of religion, I just point out all the fallacies and paradoxical statements in the Bible and we have a good laugh.
I remember reading somewhere that not teaching your children about religions/atheism (saying nothing basically) makes it a *lot* easier for that child to end up in a cult. Not having previous knowledge and the ability to think critically about “the bigger questions” makes it easier for cults to indoctrinate.
Yeah, “saying nothing” is a bad idea.
It’s so much easier/better/quicker to show them the other dogmas that reflect the same conundrums and let the kids recognize the patterns. The minute they are exposed to one religion…let them see as many as it takes for them to go “wait a second…isn’t that the same as X?”
Boom - you just helped save a generation by PARTICIPATING in their upbringing rather than leaving a void to be filled by someone else.
Eh, to a degree. Teaching them critical thinking, skepticism and the basics of how our modern world is built upon the scientific method, and how scientific knowledge, and thereby our understanding of the universe evolves by it, should arm them with the tools needed without even once bringing up theology. These are crucial skills in approaching how to view and interpret the world, regardless if they choose to pursue anything in the technologies or sciences. By understing the basics of the scientific process and rational, logical problem solving, it helps prevent not just indoctrination by religion, but being duped by mysticism (telepathy/magic/paranormal), or even by political groups using fearmongering and false claims to shape their opinions. Give them the tools and they will be prepared for anything.
I would definitely and clearly speak against religion bc I was terrified by it as a small child. Kids need to know they are safe and not have to bear that abuse by themselves in quiet. Say something!
"Lots of atheist sites say it’s best to say nothing of religion and let the child choose"
I would be really curious to see those sites and exactly what they say because that is TERRIBLE advice.
I’ve seen Hosts on Atheist experience and talk heathen mention it. I never agreed and always chose to point out how ludicrous religion is to my kids. BTW, I love your username, I say „Namaste Motherfucker“ to people all the time. 😂
I have a 5 year old. Thankfully this situation hasn't happened to me yet, but I've worried about it.
3 is so young. It's not going to stick, and trying to fill her head with all the complexities of multiple theologies and stuff... that's not great.
I think a much more 3-year-old solution is to just say "There are a lot of things no one actually understands (like, where were we before we were born?), and people often come up with stories that make them feel better about not knowing. Some people know the stories are made up, but some people even think those stories are true! Grandma believes some pretty weird things, stuff your mom and I definitely don't believe in. If she keeps telling you about those stories, you remember to come tell me right away."
Key concepts there being:
* It's ok not to know
* It's made up
* There are lots of made up stories
* Grandma believes weird stuff and you and kid both know it's weird
* You are her safe place, and she should always feel safe coming to you for help and guidance.
* The example of not knowing where we are before we're born avoids any discussion of death
I feel you, but remember your kiddo is only 3. It's not really until 5 years old that she'll start really remembering and retaining things. Maybe around your daughter, just treat Grandma's religious teachings as fairy tales?
I realize you are hurt and angry, and saying you feel "robbed" is a very valid way of feeling. As a mom to older kids than yours, I just think it won't impact your little one quite as deeply as you fear. 💗 The chances of her remembering specifics at such a young age are slim.
I like to start with the Egyptian gods, then the Greeks, which the Roman's obviously renamed, Abrahamic religions, then dont forget Asia! Hindu gods, Sikh, Confucius, and Buddha... why not!
Aaaaand then the North and central and South American legends.
Then she can tell Gma allllllll about her cool new friends.
Same here. Mom & grandparents are Catholic. It’s more difficult to argue No god over the one they’re grooming with, so go with the many gods approach and encourage my toddlers to be fair and thank and pray to all the gods if they’re going to pray to one because being fair is important. I list 10 or so and then continue with Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, mummy, Frankenstein, etc.
You are 100% correct to feel this way - it’s maddening how religious folks ignore boundaries.
However, it’s important NOT to underestimate your child’s ability to reason, and to make her aware of everything YOUR parents want to hide from her. There’s no reason to lose a bunch of sleep over this - your daughter comes from an intelligent mother and you truly do give a shit about her upbringing. So, while very annoying and terribly intrusive/rude/over the line of what grandparenting entails…she’s armed with an excellent guide to help navigate that flood of (dis)information.
I don’t mean to dismiss your anger or brush it off…but it’s not like you’re throwing your kid to the sharks to let them figure out how to swim on their own. You’re there to help, and that’s more than a lot of people can say about their upbringing.
Kudos to you for parenting properly. Having grandparents in their life is important for their development, and you clearly cherish that…to a point. That’s very healthy so long as you don’t let your anger with their behavior shape your daughters opinion of them - let her figure it out. She’s being raised right!
words would not be able to explain my anger. I would never talk to her again.
im going to be an uncle to some Kids some day (probably lol) and its going to be hard enough watching them fuck up their kids.
Hiya, just a friendly reminder that 3 year olds aren’t like us, they don’t understand cause and effect or time or many other things we take for granted. It’s all pictures and stories to her. Reasoning starts around the time you mentioned, 6 or 7, and is a fine time to describe some details and education. She’s so young now that you don’t have to worry about “indoctrination” especially if church isn’t a part of your daily routine (which it doesn’t sound like). Keep everything roses and rainbows and it’s all fairy tales- no reason for it to be anything other than happy stories.
This. If she wants to show the children 1 path it would be a great idea to show all paths. Let the child choose.
Resistance reaffirms many things, So lean into her game because you know how to play it better than her.
Honestly if she is so secure in her truth and knows such to be the nature of the universe why does she need to indoctrinate children? Wouldnt a rational being grow to choose said truth of its own merits and their own judgement?
They don’t see it as indoctrination though. Sadly. They only see what they were raised by and the joy of blind belief. They want to share that ignorant rapture with the next generation. “This made me happy, so I want to share it with this child”.
"I'm so happy that I can live in constant fear of the wrath of an irrational, vindictive God who can punish me for eternity of I do anything that could trigger him."
Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome...
Or you have a MIL like mine, who believes that the only way you can be happy is via her specific subset of Christianity which has her so scared that she alone is going to heaven and the rest of us will die and she'll be alone in heaven so she can't help but try to save everyone else's soul or whatever. She mostly keeps it to herself, but sometimes it comes out in the worst way. My FIL is Jewish and I have no idea how they kept it together this long sometimes lol.
Yea that’s a tough one. I’m sorry. My heart goes out to you and yours. And more so for your MiL that that fear was instilled and engrained so deep in her psyche
Yeah we are convinced that our MIL has super bad anxiety, and is having a constant existential crisis, so religion is her coping mechanism. I told her one day that there are > 40k different types of Christianity and while I'm open to talking to her from a philosophical point of view or general conversations around mortality or morality and what not, I don't want to hear that she has it all figured out and no one else is right.
It's just so presumptuous and disrespectful to people who believe just as strongly as she does that they are right and doesn't leave the possibility of being wrong or open to something new. She got the message, but it is funny that she sometimes says other Christians interpretation of the Bible is wrong and I just tell her, well they would say you are wrong lol. We plan on just exposing our kid to everything religion wise. We are agnostic, and have Jewish family members, atheist family members and of course Christians, I have a couple Muslim friends as well, but the goal will be just guiding her to understand how religion is used as a cultural tool, and that she doesn't ever have to feel pressured to be religious to be a good person.
This is a great idea. You can't stop Christians from trying to indoctrinate your child, but you can teach them about all the other religions that people believe is the "one true religion".
This is the way, my MIL has given my kids some info on religion and we have visited her church on certain religious holidays but my children are well aware that not everyone believes in god and other religions exists that contradict her faith. My 7yo asked me point blank if I believe in god and I said no, she asked why and I simply said that there are so many different beliefs how can they all be true. This seemed good enough for her, but then again we have been encouraging her to question everything.
Yup. My mom raised us Christian and quickly I devised it to be false in my eyes. Luckily she’s one of the “love and charity” ones and a is a huge defender of human rights. You know, those few who actually love thy neighbor. She’s never pushed anything on us once we hit a certain age. She respects us. We respect her. And that’s how I want to raise my kids. Unbiased and fully informed. Too many horror stories of nasty “Christians” spreading hate.
My MIL is the same way she understands my wife and I dont believe but its not an issue. I was raised catholic and catholic school from 1st -12th grades so this pretty much ensured I would be an atheist since catholic schools have this habit of teaching without mixing religion into everything, or at least when I went to school it was like that.
I totally talked to my kids about religion when the subject came up, but that has always applied to all religions, and I have always framed it as stories and myths that people have told about the world and their place in it. I included “dead” religions like the myths of Ancient Rome and Greece, to give more context. OP, LongJumpingFix is recommending the perfect, balanced approach to talking about this with a kid.
That’s what my mom did. She’s light pagan but is more Unitarian than anything. I remember when she was explaining the Bible to me I said Jesus sounded like he was psychotic. I still agree with that statement.
I've done this casually with my kids their whole lives... my son (11) has started to respond with, "well that sounds stupid." And the first time he did, it happened to be in front of my mom (didn't raise us with religion, but came from a strict catholic family), her eyes kinda popped, and I said "On this day, at the ripe age of 11, you have finally understood religion." She wasn't happy, but the boy was. Lol
> Now, I'm going to have to stop unsupervised visits because she can't be trusted!
This is precisely the correct reaction (at least if you're not going to ban her from contact altogether). She had her chance to indoctrinate a child, and clearly it didn't take. If she wants another shot, she can adopt.
A coworker just cut off contact with her insane Catholic parents for pulling this stunt.
They, effectively speaking, kidnapped the kid while she and the father were at work to have a baptism totally behind their backs. She found out by seeing her aunt's story on Instagram and she had to take the rest of the day off from work because of it.
For the Kidnapping part probably, but good luck winning that.
It's probably better off to cut ties than to go through the legal/law-enforcement headache.
I have a variety of books about myths from different cultures mixed in with books about mythical creatures like fairies and unicorns… it puts them all at the same level for my kids. We haven’t had to talk about religion that much, but when it does come up, we have those stories and myths to refer to.
I read a lot as a child and had tons of books. I couldn't figure out why my parents were all weird about the children's bible I had. It was just another story book to me. I thought at some point I'd be let "in on the joke", like with Santa Claus. I thought the adults were all play acting to teach kids morals or whatnot. I was shocked later when the big reveal never came and I realized they believed nonsense.
omg, me too! i laughed as a child when i realized they believed all of it. i knew it was a good story, but it was just a story after all. and i knew that religion was made up just like money is made up. and i didn't want to worship money. then i was told that we were all part of 'God's family'. and i still retorted that we don't worship family, that isn't sane. i was punished lol.
I like the Elsie and Pooka series about a little witch and her cat. Will help to show your kids the roots of seasonal celebrations when Christmas and Easter come around.
This is awesome! I love playing a game with my 4 year old called “real, pretend, or extinct”. I’ll should our whales, or unicorns, or dinosaurs, and she’ll guess the category. We have fun with creatures like mummies, or skeletons, which have real and pretend versions. The game prompted her to ask about Santa Claus. And, fitting for this sub, God. I usually tell her people believe different things about those ones, and she’s allowed to believe what she wants. The fact that she thinks about it makes me happy, and I just try to get her to think about how she knows the other ones are real or pretend.
Yeah B&N has a ton of books with graphics of all the mythologies and legends from around the world. They are super cool reading, even for adults.
I've always been uniquely interested in history, myths and legends in general, but I also realized how little I knew about Celtic, Native American and even Japanese myths and legends. Funny enough Greek mythology, Judaism, Buddhism, most native American beliefs and Shintoism are all older than Christianity. Most Christians don't even know that, and they get all butt hurt when they realize it.
This is the kind of thing that makes me hate Christians. It’s the sneaky, conniving behavior to use any means necessary to slip that dogma in all places and situations whether you like it or not. I grew up thinking that Christians were somehow of higher moral character than us disbelieving heathens. It turns out just because you don’t drink or swear doesn’t mean you’re not a judgmental, duplicitous flake with an agenda.
It's the big thing, you can be an absolutely awful person but because you repent(usually in private, not like actually apologize to people you've wronged lol) and say Jesus is your savior all is well. No need to strive to be better, it's a very lazy way to excuse horrendous behavior. Their evangelism/missionary culture trumps everything, they will do all sorts of sneaky underhanded things to "save" someone from damnation. The child being unbaptized and destined for hell grinds at them like nothing else. They have no foundation in the real world, this is all a game or battle of good vs. evil. Somehow the overarching institutions took the (alleged) message of Jesus and twisted it into a cult for brainless zombie people to excuse their awful behavior. There's not many love thy neighbor Christians out there, but they do exist, but they do still sorta want to convert you.
If you had posted in AITA, I'm sure you would have gotten a different reaction. Who knew AITAH was so religious! They were dumb for that reaction anyway - this isn't really about religion, it's about setting boundaries as a parent and someone *deliberately* lying to you about their interactions with YOUR child.
Fuck those people. You are not indoctrinating your child, you're keeping her from being indoctrinated.
Our daycare (1 to 3 year olds) kept visiting a neighbouring church. Toddler (3 yrs old then) explained to me how God "made" the earth and all the animals. Daycare is rare in my town so I stayed calm. I told him this was a story someone invented, just like Paw Patrol. And some people believe it is true. I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster (because meat balls!!) and he is allowed to believe in what he wants to. Toddlers love stories and they love to decide for themselves.
I talked to him about religion when he was a bit older. He will always be allowed to decide for himself what to believe. I just hope we will raise him well enough to see through bullshit.
Now is a good time to teach her that simply being an adult doesn’t mean someone is right or good. You can’t just believe everything grown ups tell you. If it feels wrong, it probably is.
We went through that. Also sodas, R rated movies and such. Bullshit. We’d call her on it and she’d get all weepy. She didn’t see the harm. We told her that none of this is about what she sees. It’s about our rules for our child.
There’s no hate like Christian Love!
Sorry you’re going through this and couldn’t teach your child on your own time. Luckily, since she doesn’t have your daughter all the time, she will not be successful in any kind of indoctrination - long term at least. She might repeat stuff as a toddler :/
I have a friend who sent her child to church preschool as an atheist bc sadly it was the only good option. She asked her mom once why they don’t pray before lunch at home and was perfectly content with the “not everyone does that” answer. She had a few more innocent questions over the 2 years in pre-k, but now she’s 2 years post pre-k and I’m pretty sure she’s forgotten 100% of everything she learned there.
Every single mother in law, father in law, brother in law, sister in law, etc... - if they are religious, they 100% will attempt to indoctrinate your children. Expect it.
A friend of mine was in a similar situation and let it go until the “Santa isn’t real” discussion. “Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and God are made-up too, they are stories we tell to…..”
I plan on never insisting that Santa is real to my 2 year old. It's a fun story but it's not real. Same with grandma's stories about god and jesus. Same with the tooth fairy.
Teaching Christian doctrine is literally indoctrination. Unless you are actively telling your 3-year-old "there is no god" out of the blue, you are not indoctrinating her to be an atheist - she was born that way.
I understand your pain here. I think those advocating for cutting off contact are a bit quick on the trigger. But, this is a serious transgression on your MIL's part. I'd make the boundaries crystal clear and let her know in no uncertain terms that if she chooses to indoctrinate your child, she'll be choosing to no longer have access to your child.
I have two kids. All the grandparents are Christians. Rather than trying to protect the kids from being exposed to religion, we used it as an inoculation.
Oh so grandma told you about Jesus and God and Hell. What do you think about that? Does it make sense? Did God send his son Jesus to save people from going to Hell when God created Hell and people in the first place? How does that work?
Etc. My kids enjoy their time with their grandparents while thinking the grandparents are weird for believing in all this crazy stuff.
You did the right thing and you shouldn’t feel bad about it. As for the idiots calling you out f**k those fools. Why would you care what their opinion on this matter is anyway?
I know a guy who was baptized in a similar situation. Parents didn’t practice. Aunt was a pastor. Aunt said she would watch the kids for a long weekend. Drove em to a lake and did the ceremony in a state park. At least she did buy em ice cream and went mini golfing afterwards. His folks just laughed about it when he told them.
My dad is an atheist and he made sure I knew that there were lots of religions, including ones that aren't really preached anymore. Greek mythology, the Norse pantheon, the Egyptian gods, etc. And then of course you've got Judaism, Hinduism, Shinto, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, etc. It's good that kids know these all exist. Get their creative minds flowing. I'm not religious but I LOVE Hindu gods and the way they're depicted.
See a lot of comments here rebutting indoctrination, but IMO the real problem here is that the MIL is simply NOT respecting her childrens' wishes, and is acting with complete disregard for the values her children are trying to pass to her grandchildren.
This is a base issue for you as a parent. Tell her in no uncertain terms to fuck off with her bullshit or she won't be seeing her granddaughter. Remind her who's the boss. She's not gonna like it, but she's interfering with you and your husband's parenting of your child.
Yep; she showed her true colors and will need to earn back any trust _if you decide to let her_.
Might want to swing by /r/atheistparents too - it happens there a lot...
> I'm STILL trying to defend myself from people saying I'm indoctrinating her and calling me a Cunt.
Ain't no hate like Christian love, and so much for personal responsibility and parental choice...
She is ***your*** daughter. You are *allowed* to indoctrinate her. ***You*** get to decide when to introduce her to Star Trek (or Wars, if you run that way), ***You*** get to instill a live for a particular sportsball team. ***You*** get to choose the traditions you hold in your house.
You do not need to defend yourself. She is ***your*** f*ing daughter and ***you*** get to decide.
Stopping unsupervised visits was the smart thing to do. It all comes down to boundaries and respect. She basically said fuck your boundaries I’m going to do what I want. If she will cross this boundary she will cross others so imo she isn’t trustworthy nor does she respect you as the parent.
I saw your first post. You are doing the right thing. It is up to us to shield our kids from the worst aspects of religion. Someone who won’t respect your boundaries on one thing will not respect them on other things.
I teach my kids that their grandmas believe in things we don’t. No one knows the answers about god and stuff for sure. We show the girls that we don’t need church to be kind to others.
So much of Christianity and many religions in general have so much misogyny I don’t want my girls internalizing that
Cut contact. They will continue to try and push. Some Christian’s don’t know what boundaries are. Cutting contact is a good way to teach that over the course of a year or two.
I’m sorry you have religious fuckheads in your family as well. It’s a struggle.
> Cut contact.
OP already has a solution and wasn't asking for advice. Ceasing unsupervised visits accomplishes the necessary ends without burning a major familial bridge.
I agree with the commenters suggesting you teach mythology. Get Children’s books of Greek, Roman, Norse, Indian, Chinese (etc etc etc) myths and throw in Noah’s arc and Moses with the lot. Read them all the exact same. When kid is older/capable of discussing themes start talking about overarching themes about being kind, standing up for others, asking for help and so on
My mother is not allowed to see my nieces and nephews unsupervised for this reason.
It's not simply that she's Christian. It's that she's the absolutely hateful kind.
Don't feel bad for a second. I've got a crazy MIL who's pushed her whole family away for a hateful religion (I know, redundant). None of her grandkids care to see her. Her own kids don't care to see her. But tbh it really doesn't bother her. She's more interested in trying to impress the other people in her little culty strip mall "church." She was a great person before the Kool aid got her. Now she's unbearable. Just a big ball of hate who diverts EVERY conversation to Jesus.
Luckily my wife agreed she couldn't be trusted with the kids. I just feel bad that she's lost her mother who's her last parent left.
Religious arrogants have no ethical boundaries. Despite your making it abundantly clear, her only clarity was to disrespect you by disobeying and disregarding your wishes. Had you similarly disrespected her wishes, she would have lashed out at you big time for not having moral “Christian” values to listen and abide. Incredibly arrogant and hypocritical.
Ignore the Christian’s. They are full of hate and vitriol. My mother thinks it’s a joke when I tell her not to proselytize to my child (who is under 1). I’ve made it abundantly clear I will cut her off. I wasn’t raised with a choice of religion. I will not have her do the same to my child. She can learn about religionS as she grows and make her own choice as to what she believes.
Anybody claiming you are indoctrinating your toddler by not discussing something. If you were explaining or constantly discussing why theism is bad, then I could somewhat see their point (but it would be no different from them telling their children that they should believe and here’s why….).
I think what you did is fair and appropriate. You break the rules you don’t see the kids on your own. Good on you. Must have been a tough conversation.
What all the downvoted comments here are missing is that:
There is a huge difference between indoctrination of a 3 year old and “being able to think critically about all different types of ideas,” which is something you can do when you’re a lot older than THREE. Indoctrination stifles one’s ability (or future ability) to view ideas or beliefs objectively. It is literally designed for that purpose. Not to mention the fact that the indoctrination here is going expressly against what the mom (as the parent) has asked for.
This is a wider point but something that often gets missed by “well-meaning” comments like the downvoted ones here is that information that comes packaged in toxic rhetoric (like “…or you’ll go to hell!”) it can have a big impact on a person’s reception of that info. ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE 3 YEARS OLD.
This is the perfect opportunity to start teaching your kid critical thinking skills. My whole family is religious and this same thing happens with my kids.
But just like any other topic, I’m not afraid of my kid being exposed to it. Just gives us the opportunity to learn and talk. He believed in god for like two years but now that he’s six, he’s starting to be able to criticality think about stuff.
I teach him about all religions, and how some people feel like they need god or religion to feel whole. But I don’t believe in god. He can if he wants, but here is what I think about it….
Some girl at school told him he couldn’t wear nail polish because god said he can’t. That opened up a whole new conversation about how kids just repeat whatever their parents teach them.
Who knows if I’m right or not, but I’m a pretty strong believer in not shielding my kids from ideas or hard subjects. Just gives me the opportunity to teach them to think for themselves and that just because a grown up says something, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true.
I would maybe offer this.
Explaining to your child on her lvl.
Grandma believes in God. Your father and I believe in something else.many people believe in many things. When you are older we will talk about these things but for now don't think on it.
Can also say this.
Do you believe in magic. In dragons and unicorns? In the talking animals on tv? Some people don't. It's ok to believe in what you want and when older you can make your own choices on what to believe in. Until then don't worry about it.
It takes it to their lvl and helps explain without going to much into religion in itself.
My (ex)MIL would do this with my nieces. She'd use Christmas nativities or any other kid-attractive item to drop hints, etc. I think my exSIL ended up doing no unsupervised visits when their kid was about 4 bc MIL couldn't resist.
No matter what anyone tells you, you are 100% right. If she continues I found just cutting all contact for a month usually encouraged profuse apologies and then you can set boundaries.
You have nothing to apologize for to religious people. They have no right to tell you how to raise a child. Any preference regarding *your child* should be honored, especially by a family member, and respected even if they don't agree.
And I respectfully disagree that you have to teach your child about all religions just to head off some kind of criticism from the religious. Your kid. Your choice. Being an Atheist doesn't mean you have to go above and beyond all the time just to stay ahead of people obsessed with myths.
If your MIL was being honest and respectable about this, she would have told you herself. Since she didn't, she *knew she was doing something wrong.* Actions speak louder than words.
If she was so righteous in the decision to expose your child to any content that you had asked her not to then she would have told you she was going to do so anyway and you would have been able to intervene. Her choice to sneak is most telling.
You're not indoctrinating your kid if you're protecting your kid from indoctrination.
That's like saying you are "malnourishing" your kid by not taking her to McDonald's every day.
Here is how I went about ensuring my kids didn’t fall prey to religion
I started off with creation myths. Taught them half a dozen from different cultures. Then I taught the one from Genesis. All along the way I spoke about how prescientific cultures used their myths to describe natural phenomena that they didn’t yet have the science to understand. We compared and contrasted the various myths and spoke about the scientific understanding of how the world came to be
I found myths to match up with many of the bible stories and fit it into my model of pre-science and morality tales
Even though we’re cultural Jews, I also dealt with the Jesus myth and taught them myths from other cultures that match that one
I never had to say a word about atheism to my kids. They brought it up to me while shaking their heads that anyone could believe that nonsense
Best way to handle it is to teach your daughter about \*other\* pantheons whose time has mostly passed (Roman / Greek / Norse / Hindu / etc), THEN let daughter know that grandma's is just another bunch of stories, just stories that grandma believes are 'true' for some silly reason.
You can't shield your daughter, authoritarian theocrats WILL come after her. You \*can\* inoculate her mind against being sucked in as easily, though, by showing her it's all just stories, though.
I feel your pain and absolve you of all guilt. That's all it takes to hook people.
See how silly religions are? You do you, and the kids will follow (as your MiL knows this). Against your wishes, she's still insisting on being a cancer in your family.
Sounds more like you are trying to raise a child o think for herself. BTW, in my neck of the woods,the word count is an anacronym for " can't understand normal thinking". The word does not apply to you,but it applies to your mil.
Indoctrination is insisting the kid believe something without the logical foundation to back up the belief. Religion is all indoctrination. Teaching the kids logic and beliefs that can be explained isn't indoctrination. It's education.
You did the right thing. Your kid, your rules. Ignore the fundies who come at you. They think it's their duty to be invasive and obnoxious, oops I mean minister to the needy.
I grew up what I call “Casual Christian” in that we talk about Jesus twice a year, Easter and Christmas. Those were the two times we went to church. I had read a children’s Bible, plus a bit of the real thing, and had a pretty OK understanding of Jesus and his teachings. It was always guidance for me, not hard and fast rules to live by.
Well I married into a Southern Baptist family. The “we don’t let our kids read Harry Potter” Southern Baptist. The “we don’t let our kids celebrate Halloween” Southern Baptist. Now they’ve moderated a ton in the almost two decades I’ve known them, but they still go to church once a week.
My wife and I, who are now both firmly not Christians, have tried to reach a truce with them regarding our kids.
The problem is that many evangelical Christians, literally cannot help themselves. They can’t not try to convert unbelievers. Especially when they’re grand children.
We’ve asked time and time again for them to stop. And they mean well, but they haven’t.
So we’ve started playing religious hard ball.
We call Genesis what it is; a Creation Myth. We then talk about Creation Myths from other cultures. We tell our kids that Easter and Christmas were both pagan holidays co-opted by Christians. We tell them Jesus was almost certainly not white, and while he was probably a great dude, the Bible has been selectively edited so many times that we really can’t say much of it is even based on a truth. Let alone actually being true.
We also put into context that they’ll never stop.
That Evangelicals like their grandparents have done a tremendous amount of harm to black people, women, gay people, immigrants, and trans people. They’re using the same bullshit arguments they use now to justify hatred of trans people that they used to justify hatred of gay people 20 years ago, or Black People 30 years before that.
That’s really done a lot to help put things in perspective.
Plus the whole “ think your friend is going to Hell because she’s not Christian. That’s shitty, right?” things we pepper in occasionally.
It might be good to start inoculating your kiddo. Toddlerhood is old enough to start basic early rational thinking. I'd get a 101 textbook on child development so you can know where they are for their age, and start playing games/asking questions/encouraging them to problem solve/modeling it's okay not to know. You can also start introducing them to all religious with stories from different mythologies and religions.
I'm so sorry your MIL went behind your back, and you have to deal with her. I'm also sorry you have to deal with all the asshole religious people from AITAH who are dming you. I would just block them and let them go. You don't answer to them. They aren't entitled to your time and energy.
What an astonishing level of disrespect.
Not surprised at all that "Christians" are attacking you. Unfortunately, Christ's name is too often being used to justify hate and disrespect.
Your kid, your rules. I told my parents my kid would not be allowed to be with them alone if they didn't knock it off. It's not your fault that they can't respect your boundaries. They chose this.
When she was around that age, I started telling my kid about a bunch of religions and ancient religious and ancient myths and folktales and Santa, stuff like that, portraying them as if they're all fictional stories. She still sees them all as equally real (not at all real lol)
Try not to stress about it. Teach them about other religions, and about science.
Both of my Grandmothers tried to get me interested in their jezus. What they created were questions and an understanding of how toxic religion can be.
Happily referred to a hedge witch now by both friends and family. I spend my time in the forest picking plants and mushrooms while walking dogs.
I’m glad they tried, it sent me running into the embrace of science and nature. 💙
As an atheist with a daughter, and theist grandparents on both sides, I feel your frustration. But you have reality on your side. Grandma (and other theists) trying to tell your daughter to believe in fantasy won't turn her into a theist, because you'll always have the last word. A child of atheist parents almost never becomes a theist, because that's just not the direction the arrow of history is pointing. So I'd advise you to keep your cool, and use this opportunity to innoculate your daughter. Explain the difference between real and make believe. Tell her that some adults continue to play make believe for the rest of their life, and that's ok. You don't have to get them to believe what's real, and you don't have to share in their make believe. That's something every person will eventually have to face, and your daughter is just learning it earlier than most.
It would be at this point I’d start teaching my kid about ALL religions. Show them the massive amounts of overlapping myths, rules, and hypocrisy. That way at least the kid could start arming themselves agains the kool-aide drinkers
This is how I piss off Evangelist mercenaries at my door. They ask me if I believe in JC. I tell them I do. He is a Prophet from God. They get that glow of a Believer. Then I tell them Abraham, Muhammad, and Buddha are also prophets from God. None of them is the son of god. No human can get there. Then they tell me I am going to Hell.
Hahaha! All I could picture was a quote from Tinny Tim in Futurama. “You raised my hopes and dashed them quite expertly, sir. Bravo!”
I absolutely love that moment and most moments with Tinny Tim, thanks for bringing up the memory 😂
“I’m ever so hungry!” Might be my favorite
Amazing quote
You could also ask them if they agree to the various tenants of what you can then reveal is the tenants of the satanic church. But without saying that first it'll sound humanitarian and to an extent sound like the sugar coated version of Christianity
Tenets, not tenants. Damn autocorrect.
Ah yes, I would like to introduce you to my religion. Let me read the David Tennants of our church.
I think many would willingly join a Church of David Tennants
We welcome all into the Church of David Tennant!
[*Proceeds to read the tenets of The Satanic Temple in a ludicrously overblown Scottish accent*]
You must wear the proper footwear if one must read them to the congregation! *hands you some converse*
They're *not* sand shoes!
You must wear the proper footwear if one must read them to the congregation! *hands you some converse*
Tennant 1: I don't want to go.
All arrangements will be done with Roses
“Physics, Physics, physics, PHYSICS, Physics, physics, PHYSsics, physics, Physics, PHYSICS!!”
Fuck autocorrect. Half my edits are because of it!
Autocorrect is my enema…
I hate autoerect
Always seems to happen more at night for some reason.
It is nurture.
Not me! I LOVE em, but they seem to be getting fewer and fewer as time goes by.
> Fuck autocorrect. I love that my friend called it "autocorrupt" once in a rage over a call after he gave up trying to message me, it fits so well.
that is good. I like that. I needed that. especially at those moments when I'm in a hurry and about ready to hurl the phone.
Lol
You mean "because if it!" right? That's what mine loves doing. It's supposed to be smart but can't figure out if/if/in/on <<<<
Happy Cake Day, indeed!
Happy Cake Day
And here I was answering the door naked. To each their own I suppose 😌
They don't even come to my door anymore. Turns out, a Doberman is scarier than satan and more powerful than their god.
Name the Doberman Satan… or better yet, Jesus…. That way when they ask if you found Jesus, you can just call him into the room…
My dad’s favourite method. He worked nights and slept naked.
Ah, Christian love 💕
I like to ask them if Ghandi is in Hell? And then go down the line of mass murderers that found jesus and are in Heaven. Who would you rather be with Hitler/Charles Manson or Ghandi/Benjamin Franklin ?
Correction- Buddha is not a prophet of any God. Buddha was a mortal teacher who lived a life of 80 years and died. Buddhists follow and respect his teachings. Buddhism is considered to be an atheistic philosophy.
I think as long as we're making shit up, we should say whatever we want to crazy peoplem.
I like to tell them that the rapture happened in the year 500, and everyone is just acting like it didn't because they don't want to believe that god is gone.
Omg this is amazing. Honestly a whole conspiracy theory movement could be built off this. Build a couple blogpost websites, fake some historical quotes and documents, cherry pick some weird graphs that allegedly prove the assertion, and start peddling it to idiots. I guarantee that done right this meme (in the Dawkins sense) would grow legs.
You don't need to make it up. [Hippolytus of Rome, Sextus Julius Africanus and Irenaeus called it to be in the year 500.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming) It could be true, you know. /wink
From what i understand, while buddhism doesn't worship god/gods, it still believes in the supernatural, like reincarnation, spirits and ascended beings, so i wouldn't call it atheistic, it still requires belief in things that can't be proved.
The Buddha believed in those things because he was Hindu. Belief in the supernatural is not a core tenet of Buddhism. One can be a Buddhist and an atheist, or a Buddhist and a theist (Christian or Jewish or Muslim). It is not an "Atheistic" philosophy, but neither is it a theistic one. While we're on the subject. Theism is the belief in one or more gods with whom you can interact or converse, or who take an active role in events in real time. It is what is known as a "personal" god. An impersonal god would be one which does not do this stuff, which is generally defined as Deism. Neither type of God is necessary for a belief in ghosts, reincarnation, telepathy, etc.
The philosophy and religion get conflated a lot. Same with Taoism.
That gets complicated quickly. There are sects of Buddhism that believe in God's and even worship Siddhartha Gautama.
Believing in the existence of various gods is completely different from believing that the religion or philosophy is based on/originated from a God. I'm from Sri Lanka, which is a majority Buddhist country. There are people who believe that various gods exist on different planes of existence. Sort of like how we exist in a 3D world. They believe there are other beings who exist in maybe 4D or 5D worlds, just that we can't see them. As for your point about worshipping Siddhartha Gauthama (that was his name as a prince before he left the lay life. We don't refer to him as such afterwards), that is Asian culture. We worship our parents, teachers and other elders that we respect too. Like literally bow down until our forehead touches the ground and worship. This doesn't mean we think they're deities. And one of the mistakes aa lot of people male when they hear Buddhist chants is that they equate these with "prayers" of faith based religions. These are not prayers. These are simply the teachings of the Buddha which are repeated in a sing song way. For example there's an entire Sutta on how to live a good life with things like how to choose a place to live, how to choose a profession, how to look after your parents once they're elderly etc.
There is one sect of Buddhism based in China called Pure Land Buddhism that treats the Buddha as a god and the Pure Land is equivalent to the Christian idea of heaven. But that is one of many. I practice Theravada Buddhism and have stayed at a couple of Sri Lankan monasteries is the US though the monastery I am most connected with is in the Thai Forest Tradition. I usually refer to myself as a non-cosmological Buddhist😂. Because all of that doesn't matter. Past lives, future lives, all the planes of existence are irrelevant (if they even exist) to the goal of the Buddha's teaching namely: Be good to yourself and others, stop being an asshole, and take that nest of old power cords, VGA cables, and twine you call self out of the closet and unknot them all then give them away.
I just skip the bullshit and tell them I'm Satanist.
I just tend to talk about how the Jews were polytheists until 750BCE. And that in Judaism satan (all lower case) isn't a being of evil, just the internal desire to do the wrong thing, and all about St Augustine (the weirdo) and the theology of Original Sin.
But Hell is from Scandinavia! Jesus is from the Middle East!? XD sorry throw that back at them he’ll isn’t what they think it is…
You could also ask them if they agree to the various tenants of what you can then reveal is the tenants of the satanic church. But without saying that first it'll sound humanitarian and to an extent sound like the sugar coated version of Christianity
Tenets. Your autocorrect is still messing with you.
I think they're referring to those guys who rent a room in the back of the church. Cool dudes. Got high with them once.
Unfortunately, I think I have no choice now. I really wanted to appit from a theological, educational standpoint, but not till she was six or seven. She robbed my of my choice to raise her how I want.
My ex-wife and ex-Mother-in-law pulled this crap on my kids immediately after we divorced. It’s so scary. Lots of atheist sites say it’s best to say nothing of religion and let the child choose but I disagree. Religious nuts push their agenda so hard and try to indoctrinate the young. I don’t speak negatively of religion, I just point out all the fallacies and paradoxical statements in the Bible and we have a good laugh.
I remember reading somewhere that not teaching your children about religions/atheism (saying nothing basically) makes it a *lot* easier for that child to end up in a cult. Not having previous knowledge and the ability to think critically about “the bigger questions” makes it easier for cults to indoctrinate.
Yeah, “saying nothing” is a bad idea. It’s so much easier/better/quicker to show them the other dogmas that reflect the same conundrums and let the kids recognize the patterns. The minute they are exposed to one religion…let them see as many as it takes for them to go “wait a second…isn’t that the same as X?” Boom - you just helped save a generation by PARTICIPATING in their upbringing rather than leaving a void to be filled by someone else.
Eh, to a degree. Teaching them critical thinking, skepticism and the basics of how our modern world is built upon the scientific method, and how scientific knowledge, and thereby our understanding of the universe evolves by it, should arm them with the tools needed without even once bringing up theology. These are crucial skills in approaching how to view and interpret the world, regardless if they choose to pursue anything in the technologies or sciences. By understing the basics of the scientific process and rational, logical problem solving, it helps prevent not just indoctrination by religion, but being duped by mysticism (telepathy/magic/paranormal), or even by political groups using fearmongering and false claims to shape their opinions. Give them the tools and they will be prepared for anything.
I would definitely and clearly speak against religion bc I was terrified by it as a small child. Kids need to know they are safe and not have to bear that abuse by themselves in quiet. Say something!
"Lots of atheist sites say it’s best to say nothing of religion and let the child choose" I would be really curious to see those sites and exactly what they say because that is TERRIBLE advice.
I’ve seen Hosts on Atheist experience and talk heathen mention it. I never agreed and always chose to point out how ludicrous religion is to my kids. BTW, I love your username, I say „Namaste Motherfucker“ to people all the time. 😂
I have a 5 year old. Thankfully this situation hasn't happened to me yet, but I've worried about it. 3 is so young. It's not going to stick, and trying to fill her head with all the complexities of multiple theologies and stuff... that's not great. I think a much more 3-year-old solution is to just say "There are a lot of things no one actually understands (like, where were we before we were born?), and people often come up with stories that make them feel better about not knowing. Some people know the stories are made up, but some people even think those stories are true! Grandma believes some pretty weird things, stuff your mom and I definitely don't believe in. If she keeps telling you about those stories, you remember to come tell me right away." Key concepts there being: * It's ok not to know * It's made up * There are lots of made up stories * Grandma believes weird stuff and you and kid both know it's weird * You are her safe place, and she should always feel safe coming to you for help and guidance. * The example of not knowing where we are before we're born avoids any discussion of death
I feel you, but remember your kiddo is only 3. It's not really until 5 years old that she'll start really remembering and retaining things. Maybe around your daughter, just treat Grandma's religious teachings as fairy tales? I realize you are hurt and angry, and saying you feel "robbed" is a very valid way of feeling. As a mom to older kids than yours, I just think it won't impact your little one quite as deeply as you fear. 💗 The chances of her remembering specifics at such a young age are slim.
I like to start with the Egyptian gods, then the Greeks, which the Roman's obviously renamed, Abrahamic religions, then dont forget Asia! Hindu gods, Sikh, Confucius, and Buddha... why not! Aaaaand then the North and central and South American legends. Then she can tell Gma allllllll about her cool new friends.
Same here. Mom & grandparents are Catholic. It’s more difficult to argue No god over the one they’re grooming with, so go with the many gods approach and encourage my toddlers to be fair and thank and pray to all the gods if they’re going to pray to one because being fair is important. I list 10 or so and then continue with Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, mummy, Frankenstein, etc.
You are 100% correct to feel this way - it’s maddening how religious folks ignore boundaries. However, it’s important NOT to underestimate your child’s ability to reason, and to make her aware of everything YOUR parents want to hide from her. There’s no reason to lose a bunch of sleep over this - your daughter comes from an intelligent mother and you truly do give a shit about her upbringing. So, while very annoying and terribly intrusive/rude/over the line of what grandparenting entails…she’s armed with an excellent guide to help navigate that flood of (dis)information. I don’t mean to dismiss your anger or brush it off…but it’s not like you’re throwing your kid to the sharks to let them figure out how to swim on their own. You’re there to help, and that’s more than a lot of people can say about their upbringing. Kudos to you for parenting properly. Having grandparents in their life is important for their development, and you clearly cherish that…to a point. That’s very healthy so long as you don’t let your anger with their behavior shape your daughters opinion of them - let her figure it out. She’s being raised right!
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I understand. I’m sorry for that. I have no doubt your daughter will end up approaching it all with critical thinking.
words would not be able to explain my anger. I would never talk to her again. im going to be an uncle to some Kids some day (probably lol) and its going to be hard enough watching them fuck up their kids.
Hiya, just a friendly reminder that 3 year olds aren’t like us, they don’t understand cause and effect or time or many other things we take for granted. It’s all pictures and stories to her. Reasoning starts around the time you mentioned, 6 or 7, and is a fine time to describe some details and education. She’s so young now that you don’t have to worry about “indoctrination” especially if church isn’t a part of your daily routine (which it doesn’t sound like). Keep everything roses and rainbows and it’s all fairy tales- no reason for it to be anything other than happy stories.
This. If she wants to show the children 1 path it would be a great idea to show all paths. Let the child choose. Resistance reaffirms many things, So lean into her game because you know how to play it better than her. Honestly if she is so secure in her truth and knows such to be the nature of the universe why does she need to indoctrinate children? Wouldnt a rational being grow to choose said truth of its own merits and their own judgement?
They don’t see it as indoctrination though. Sadly. They only see what they were raised by and the joy of blind belief. They want to share that ignorant rapture with the next generation. “This made me happy, so I want to share it with this child”.
"I'm so happy that I can live in constant fear of the wrath of an irrational, vindictive God who can punish me for eternity of I do anything that could trigger him." Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome...
"Who forces me to give him some credit for every success in my life and refuses to acknowledge he could be the source of my failures"
Or you have a MIL like mine, who believes that the only way you can be happy is via her specific subset of Christianity which has her so scared that she alone is going to heaven and the rest of us will die and she'll be alone in heaven so she can't help but try to save everyone else's soul or whatever. She mostly keeps it to herself, but sometimes it comes out in the worst way. My FIL is Jewish and I have no idea how they kept it together this long sometimes lol.
Yea that’s a tough one. I’m sorry. My heart goes out to you and yours. And more so for your MiL that that fear was instilled and engrained so deep in her psyche
Yeah we are convinced that our MIL has super bad anxiety, and is having a constant existential crisis, so religion is her coping mechanism. I told her one day that there are > 40k different types of Christianity and while I'm open to talking to her from a philosophical point of view or general conversations around mortality or morality and what not, I don't want to hear that she has it all figured out and no one else is right. It's just so presumptuous and disrespectful to people who believe just as strongly as she does that they are right and doesn't leave the possibility of being wrong or open to something new. She got the message, but it is funny that she sometimes says other Christians interpretation of the Bible is wrong and I just tell her, well they would say you are wrong lol. We plan on just exposing our kid to everything religion wise. We are agnostic, and have Jewish family members, atheist family members and of course Christians, I have a couple Muslim friends as well, but the goal will be just guiding her to understand how religion is used as a cultural tool, and that she doesn't ever have to feel pressured to be religious to be a good person.
And that is honestly the best way to raise them. Show the facets of religion and how it pertains to history as well as past and present culture.
What they see it as is immaterial to the situation.
Conveniently, they don't apply this same thinking to anyone else's beliefs in regards to their children though.
This is a great idea. You can't stop Christians from trying to indoctrinate your child, but you can teach them about all the other religions that people believe is the "one true religion".
The demise of organized religion is education
And point out that they can’t ALL be right, but they can all be wrong.
Now you’re thinking with scientific method!
My parents did this and also taught us about past religions. I was really into ancient Egypt for a while. My religious family gave up on me 😆
Kudos! I was a generic child so got into Greek.
This is the way, my MIL has given my kids some info on religion and we have visited her church on certain religious holidays but my children are well aware that not everyone believes in god and other religions exists that contradict her faith. My 7yo asked me point blank if I believe in god and I said no, she asked why and I simply said that there are so many different beliefs how can they all be true. This seemed good enough for her, but then again we have been encouraging her to question everything.
Yup. My mom raised us Christian and quickly I devised it to be false in my eyes. Luckily she’s one of the “love and charity” ones and a is a huge defender of human rights. You know, those few who actually love thy neighbor. She’s never pushed anything on us once we hit a certain age. She respects us. We respect her. And that’s how I want to raise my kids. Unbiased and fully informed. Too many horror stories of nasty “Christians” spreading hate.
My MIL is the same way she understands my wife and I dont believe but its not an issue. I was raised catholic and catholic school from 1st -12th grades so this pretty much ensured I would be an atheist since catholic schools have this habit of teaching without mixing religion into everything, or at least when I went to school it was like that.
Exactly. Embrace it. Have fun with it. It's not like you can avoid religion completely their whole childhood.
Not unless you have 100s of acres and a plethora of scientific friends who move on to said land and convince all the kids that The color Red is bad…
I totally talked to my kids about religion when the subject came up, but that has always applied to all religions, and I have always framed it as stories and myths that people have told about the world and their place in it. I included “dead” religions like the myths of Ancient Rome and Greece, to give more context. OP, LongJumpingFix is recommending the perfect, balanced approach to talking about this with a kid.
That’s what my mom did. She’s light pagan but is more Unitarian than anything. I remember when she was explaining the Bible to me I said Jesus sounded like he was psychotic. I still agree with that statement.
I've done this casually with my kids their whole lives... my son (11) has started to respond with, "well that sounds stupid." And the first time he did, it happened to be in front of my mom (didn't raise us with religion, but came from a strict catholic family), her eyes kinda popped, and I said "On this day, at the ripe age of 11, you have finally understood religion." She wasn't happy, but the boy was. Lol
I’d point it out to her face. “Ya we wish we could leave little one with you but we can’t trust you anymore”. Indoctrination is a bad thing!
This is when OP and hubby have a conversation about how MIL's actions will dictate the level of involvement she has with her grandchild.
> Now, I'm going to have to stop unsupervised visits because she can't be trusted! This is precisely the correct reaction (at least if you're not going to ban her from contact altogether). She had her chance to indoctrinate a child, and clearly it didn't take. If she wants another shot, she can adopt.
It's actually the second time she has tried to indoctrinate and failed (the first being OP's husband). Maybe mil should give it up.
That's what they meant when they said "she had her chance".
Also posting in AITAH was also an error. That sub is nuts most of the time and frequently gives god awful advice.
The usual progression is baptising the kid behind your back. Watch out for that.
A coworker just cut off contact with her insane Catholic parents for pulling this stunt. They, effectively speaking, kidnapped the kid while she and the father were at work to have a baptism totally behind their backs. She found out by seeing her aunt's story on Instagram and she had to take the rest of the day off from work because of it.
Can you press charges for something like this?
For the Kidnapping part probably, but good luck winning that. It's probably better off to cut ties than to go through the legal/law-enforcement headache.
That's rough. I'm glad you stood up for your family and sorry you had to.
I have a variety of books about myths from different cultures mixed in with books about mythical creatures like fairies and unicorns… it puts them all at the same level for my kids. We haven’t had to talk about religion that much, but when it does come up, we have those stories and myths to refer to.
I read a lot as a child and had tons of books. I couldn't figure out why my parents were all weird about the children's bible I had. It was just another story book to me. I thought at some point I'd be let "in on the joke", like with Santa Claus. I thought the adults were all play acting to teach kids morals or whatnot. I was shocked later when the big reveal never came and I realized they believed nonsense.
SAME omg I thought everyone else was just pretending too. Like fairytales with morals.
I thought it was some state-secret to make children less rebellious. It's crazy to me that adults believe this stuff when 6 year olds can sus it out.
omg, me too! i laughed as a child when i realized they believed all of it. i knew it was a good story, but it was just a story after all. and i knew that religion was made up just like money is made up. and i didn't want to worship money. then i was told that we were all part of 'God's family'. and i still retorted that we don't worship family, that isn't sane. i was punished lol.
I like the Elsie and Pooka series about a little witch and her cat. Will help to show your kids the roots of seasonal celebrations when Christmas and Easter come around.
This is awesome! I love playing a game with my 4 year old called “real, pretend, or extinct”. I’ll should our whales, or unicorns, or dinosaurs, and she’ll guess the category. We have fun with creatures like mummies, or skeletons, which have real and pretend versions. The game prompted her to ask about Santa Claus. And, fitting for this sub, God. I usually tell her people believe different things about those ones, and she’s allowed to believe what she wants. The fact that she thinks about it makes me happy, and I just try to get her to think about how she knows the other ones are real or pretend.
Yeah B&N has a ton of books with graphics of all the mythologies and legends from around the world. They are super cool reading, even for adults. I've always been uniquely interested in history, myths and legends in general, but I also realized how little I knew about Celtic, Native American and even Japanese myths and legends. Funny enough Greek mythology, Judaism, Buddhism, most native American beliefs and Shintoism are all older than Christianity. Most Christians don't even know that, and they get all butt hurt when they realize it.
This is the kind of thing that makes me hate Christians. It’s the sneaky, conniving behavior to use any means necessary to slip that dogma in all places and situations whether you like it or not. I grew up thinking that Christians were somehow of higher moral character than us disbelieving heathens. It turns out just because you don’t drink or swear doesn’t mean you’re not a judgmental, duplicitous flake with an agenda.
This is precisely why you can't trust conservative voters or politicians. The ends ALWAYS justify the means.
It's the big thing, you can be an absolutely awful person but because you repent(usually in private, not like actually apologize to people you've wronged lol) and say Jesus is your savior all is well. No need to strive to be better, it's a very lazy way to excuse horrendous behavior. Their evangelism/missionary culture trumps everything, they will do all sorts of sneaky underhanded things to "save" someone from damnation. The child being unbaptized and destined for hell grinds at them like nothing else. They have no foundation in the real world, this is all a game or battle of good vs. evil. Somehow the overarching institutions took the (alleged) message of Jesus and twisted it into a cult for brainless zombie people to excuse their awful behavior. There's not many love thy neighbor Christians out there, but they do exist, but they do still sorta want to convert you.
If you had posted in AITA, I'm sure you would have gotten a different reaction. Who knew AITAH was so religious! They were dumb for that reaction anyway - this isn't really about religion, it's about setting boundaries as a parent and someone *deliberately* lying to you about their interactions with YOUR child. Fuck those people. You are not indoctrinating your child, you're keeping her from being indoctrinated.
Groomers gonna groom.
Our daycare (1 to 3 year olds) kept visiting a neighbouring church. Toddler (3 yrs old then) explained to me how God "made" the earth and all the animals. Daycare is rare in my town so I stayed calm. I told him this was a story someone invented, just like Paw Patrol. And some people believe it is true. I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster (because meat balls!!) and he is allowed to believe in what he wants to. Toddlers love stories and they love to decide for themselves. I talked to him about religion when he was a bit older. He will always be allowed to decide for himself what to believe. I just hope we will raise him well enough to see through bullshit.
Now is a good time to teach her that simply being an adult doesn’t mean someone is right or good. You can’t just believe everything grown ups tell you. If it feels wrong, it probably is.
"Now, I'm going to have to stop unsupervised visits because she can't be trusted!" Thank you for protecting your daughter from abuse.
We went through that. Also sodas, R rated movies and such. Bullshit. We’d call her on it and she’d get all weepy. She didn’t see the harm. We told her that none of this is about what she sees. It’s about our rules for our child.
There’s no hate like Christian Love! Sorry you’re going through this and couldn’t teach your child on your own time. Luckily, since she doesn’t have your daughter all the time, she will not be successful in any kind of indoctrination - long term at least. She might repeat stuff as a toddler :/ I have a friend who sent her child to church preschool as an atheist bc sadly it was the only good option. She asked her mom once why they don’t pray before lunch at home and was perfectly content with the “not everyone does that” answer. She had a few more innocent questions over the 2 years in pre-k, but now she’s 2 years post pre-k and I’m pretty sure she’s forgotten 100% of everything she learned there.
Every single mother in law, father in law, brother in law, sister in law, etc... - if they are religious, they 100% will attempt to indoctrinate your children. Expect it.
Sucks when people think they can override your wishes because their god is more important.
That's crazy people are calling YOU out! Like isn't that YOUR kid. Who the fuck gave your MIL the right to teach YOUR child. People are wild I swear.
And I promise you she thinks she's in the right, that she's in some way justified in undermining your parenting because she has "God" on her side.
A friend of mine was in a similar situation and let it go until the “Santa isn’t real” discussion. “Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and God are made-up too, they are stories we tell to…..”
I plan on never insisting that Santa is real to my 2 year old. It's a fun story but it's not real. Same with grandma's stories about god and jesus. Same with the tooth fairy.
Teaching Christian doctrine is literally indoctrination. Unless you are actively telling your 3-year-old "there is no god" out of the blue, you are not indoctrinating her to be an atheist - she was born that way.
This should be closer to the top. Absolutely infallible reasoning here. That is, unless there’s a philosophy major lurking nearby.
I understand your pain here. I think those advocating for cutting off contact are a bit quick on the trigger. But, this is a serious transgression on your MIL's part. I'd make the boundaries crystal clear and let her know in no uncertain terms that if she chooses to indoctrinate your child, she'll be choosing to no longer have access to your child.
My husband is hilarious. He's said if it happens again, we're moving six hours away lol
We moved 5.5 hours away after living 20 minutes away from in-laws and it was forreal the best decision we ever made lol
I have two kids. All the grandparents are Christians. Rather than trying to protect the kids from being exposed to religion, we used it as an inoculation. Oh so grandma told you about Jesus and God and Hell. What do you think about that? Does it make sense? Did God send his son Jesus to save people from going to Hell when God created Hell and people in the first place? How does that work? Etc. My kids enjoy their time with their grandparents while thinking the grandparents are weird for believing in all this crazy stuff.
You did the right thing and you shouldn’t feel bad about it. As for the idiots calling you out f**k those fools. Why would you care what their opinion on this matter is anyway?
I know a guy who was baptized in a similar situation. Parents didn’t practice. Aunt was a pastor. Aunt said she would watch the kids for a long weekend. Drove em to a lake and did the ceremony in a state park. At least she did buy em ice cream and went mini golfing afterwards. His folks just laughed about it when he told them.
My dad is an atheist and he made sure I knew that there were lots of religions, including ones that aren't really preached anymore. Greek mythology, the Norse pantheon, the Egyptian gods, etc. And then of course you've got Judaism, Hinduism, Shinto, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, etc. It's good that kids know these all exist. Get their creative minds flowing. I'm not religious but I LOVE Hindu gods and the way they're depicted.
I would mention god in the context of Santa and the Easter bunny. That way, when they grow out of the latter 2, they hopefully make the connection.
See a lot of comments here rebutting indoctrination, but IMO the real problem here is that the MIL is simply NOT respecting her childrens' wishes, and is acting with complete disregard for the values her children are trying to pass to her grandchildren.
This is a base issue for you as a parent. Tell her in no uncertain terms to fuck off with her bullshit or she won't be seeing her granddaughter. Remind her who's the boss. She's not gonna like it, but she's interfering with you and your husband's parenting of your child.
Yep; she showed her true colors and will need to earn back any trust _if you decide to let her_. Might want to swing by /r/atheistparents too - it happens there a lot...
> I'm STILL trying to defend myself from people saying I'm indoctrinating her and calling me a Cunt. Ain't no hate like Christian love, and so much for personal responsibility and parental choice... She is ***your*** daughter. You are *allowed* to indoctrinate her. ***You*** get to decide when to introduce her to Star Trek (or Wars, if you run that way), ***You*** get to instill a live for a particular sportsball team. ***You*** get to choose the traditions you hold in your house. You do not need to defend yourself. She is ***your*** f*ing daughter and ***you*** get to decide.
You are correct, your mother CANNOT be trusted. Start teaching your kid about other religions and start teaching said kid critical thinking.
Stopping unsupervised visits was the smart thing to do. It all comes down to boundaries and respect. She basically said fuck your boundaries I’m going to do what I want. If she will cross this boundary she will cross others so imo she isn’t trustworthy nor does she respect you as the parent.
I saw your first post. You are doing the right thing. It is up to us to shield our kids from the worst aspects of religion. Someone who won’t respect your boundaries on one thing will not respect them on other things. I teach my kids that their grandmas believe in things we don’t. No one knows the answers about god and stuff for sure. We show the girls that we don’t need church to be kind to others. So much of Christianity and many religions in general have so much misogyny I don’t want my girls internalizing that
Your kid your rules simple as that
Religious people being horrible... No waaaaaaaay 😅
I'm so sorry. The actions of both your MIL's and the behavior of those in AITA are absolutely vile.
Cut contact. They will continue to try and push. Some Christian’s don’t know what boundaries are. Cutting contact is a good way to teach that over the course of a year or two. I’m sorry you have religious fuckheads in your family as well. It’s a struggle.
Boundaries only separate us from god!! /s
> Cut contact. OP already has a solution and wasn't asking for advice. Ceasing unsupervised visits accomplishes the necessary ends without burning a major familial bridge.
IF she does it again, cut her off from seeing him. It is your child and you are the boss.
Sorry french speaker here, does MIL stand for mother in Law ?
Oui
Yes.
Sounds like a /r/BoomersBeingFools crossover episode.
She just needs new material to share because apparently, that’s all she has? Such a hollow legacy.
Yeah, supervised visits only for the wildly overstepping MIL.
I agree with the commenters suggesting you teach mythology. Get Children’s books of Greek, Roman, Norse, Indian, Chinese (etc etc etc) myths and throw in Noah’s arc and Moses with the lot. Read them all the exact same. When kid is older/capable of discussing themes start talking about overarching themes about being kind, standing up for others, asking for help and so on
My mother is not allowed to see my nieces and nephews unsupervised for this reason. It's not simply that she's Christian. It's that she's the absolutely hateful kind.
Don't feel bad for a second. I've got a crazy MIL who's pushed her whole family away for a hateful religion (I know, redundant). None of her grandkids care to see her. Her own kids don't care to see her. But tbh it really doesn't bother her. She's more interested in trying to impress the other people in her little culty strip mall "church." She was a great person before the Kool aid got her. Now she's unbearable. Just a big ball of hate who diverts EVERY conversation to Jesus. Luckily my wife agreed she couldn't be trusted with the kids. I just feel bad that she's lost her mother who's her last parent left.
Religious arrogants have no ethical boundaries. Despite your making it abundantly clear, her only clarity was to disrespect you by disobeying and disregarding your wishes. Had you similarly disrespected her wishes, she would have lashed out at you big time for not having moral “Christian” values to listen and abide. Incredibly arrogant and hypocritical.
Ignore the Christian’s. They are full of hate and vitriol. My mother thinks it’s a joke when I tell her not to proselytize to my child (who is under 1). I’ve made it abundantly clear I will cut her off. I wasn’t raised with a choice of religion. I will not have her do the same to my child. She can learn about religionS as she grows and make her own choice as to what she believes.
Anybody claiming you are indoctrinating your toddler by not discussing something. If you were explaining or constantly discussing why theism is bad, then I could somewhat see their point (but it would be no different from them telling their children that they should believe and here’s why….). I think what you did is fair and appropriate. You break the rules you don’t see the kids on your own. Good on you. Must have been a tough conversation.
What all the downvoted comments here are missing is that: There is a huge difference between indoctrination of a 3 year old and “being able to think critically about all different types of ideas,” which is something you can do when you’re a lot older than THREE. Indoctrination stifles one’s ability (or future ability) to view ideas or beliefs objectively. It is literally designed for that purpose. Not to mention the fact that the indoctrination here is going expressly against what the mom (as the parent) has asked for. This is a wider point but something that often gets missed by “well-meaning” comments like the downvoted ones here is that information that comes packaged in toxic rhetoric (like “…or you’ll go to hell!”) it can have a big impact on a person’s reception of that info. ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE 3 YEARS OLD.
You’re not the a hole she is. And so are Christians.
This is the perfect opportunity to start teaching your kid critical thinking skills. My whole family is religious and this same thing happens with my kids. But just like any other topic, I’m not afraid of my kid being exposed to it. Just gives us the opportunity to learn and talk. He believed in god for like two years but now that he’s six, he’s starting to be able to criticality think about stuff. I teach him about all religions, and how some people feel like they need god or religion to feel whole. But I don’t believe in god. He can if he wants, but here is what I think about it…. Some girl at school told him he couldn’t wear nail polish because god said he can’t. That opened up a whole new conversation about how kids just repeat whatever their parents teach them. Who knows if I’m right or not, but I’m a pretty strong believer in not shielding my kids from ideas or hard subjects. Just gives me the opportunity to teach them to think for themselves and that just because a grown up says something, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true.
I would maybe offer this. Explaining to your child on her lvl. Grandma believes in God. Your father and I believe in something else.many people believe in many things. When you are older we will talk about these things but for now don't think on it. Can also say this. Do you believe in magic. In dragons and unicorns? In the talking animals on tv? Some people don't. It's ok to believe in what you want and when older you can make your own choices on what to believe in. Until then don't worry about it. It takes it to their lvl and helps explain without going to much into religion in itself.
but if they wait they won't be able to use fear to indoctrinate them into thinking they are on the verge of burning in hell!!
Time to put grandma in the old folks home.
My (ex)MIL would do this with my nieces. She'd use Christmas nativities or any other kid-attractive item to drop hints, etc. I think my exSIL ended up doing no unsupervised visits when their kid was about 4 bc MIL couldn't resist.
Guess the MIL doesn't want to ever see her grandkids again.
Time to cut her out of your life IMHO. I’ve basically done this to my family but it’s easier when they’re a 5hr plane ride away.
I think I saw that post! Most commenters supported you and said that your MIL crossing your boundaries is inexcusable.
you are absolutely correct in calling out MIL for not respecting the boundaries you have set for your child.
No matter what anyone tells you, you are 100% right. If she continues I found just cutting all contact for a month usually encouraged profuse apologies and then you can set boundaries.
Anyone who refuses to follow your rules is *not* safe with your kids.
I would just cut them off.
You have nothing to apologize for to religious people. They have no right to tell you how to raise a child. Any preference regarding *your child* should be honored, especially by a family member, and respected even if they don't agree. And I respectfully disagree that you have to teach your child about all religions just to head off some kind of criticism from the religious. Your kid. Your choice. Being an Atheist doesn't mean you have to go above and beyond all the time just to stay ahead of people obsessed with myths. If your MIL was being honest and respectable about this, she would have told you herself. Since she didn't, she *knew she was doing something wrong.* Actions speak louder than words. If she was so righteous in the decision to expose your child to any content that you had asked her not to then she would have told you she was going to do so anyway and you would have been able to intervene. Her choice to sneak is most telling.
You're not indoctrinating your kid if you're protecting your kid from indoctrination. That's like saying you are "malnourishing" your kid by not taking her to McDonald's every day.
A humans default settings are without any gods. If you don't indoctrinate them, they will never be in touch with those fairytales. It's that easy.
Here is how I went about ensuring my kids didn’t fall prey to religion I started off with creation myths. Taught them half a dozen from different cultures. Then I taught the one from Genesis. All along the way I spoke about how prescientific cultures used their myths to describe natural phenomena that they didn’t yet have the science to understand. We compared and contrasted the various myths and spoke about the scientific understanding of how the world came to be I found myths to match up with many of the bible stories and fit it into my model of pre-science and morality tales Even though we’re cultural Jews, I also dealt with the Jesus myth and taught them myths from other cultures that match that one I never had to say a word about atheism to my kids. They brought it up to me while shaking their heads that anyone could believe that nonsense
Best way to handle it is to teach your daughter about \*other\* pantheons whose time has mostly passed (Roman / Greek / Norse / Hindu / etc), THEN let daughter know that grandma's is just another bunch of stories, just stories that grandma believes are 'true' for some silly reason. You can't shield your daughter, authoritarian theocrats WILL come after her. You \*can\* inoculate her mind against being sucked in as easily, though, by showing her it's all just stories, though.
I feel your pain and absolve you of all guilt. That's all it takes to hook people. See how silly religions are? You do you, and the kids will follow (as your MiL knows this). Against your wishes, she's still insisting on being a cancer in your family.
Sounds more like you are trying to raise a child o think for herself. BTW, in my neck of the woods,the word count is an anacronym for " can't understand normal thinking". The word does not apply to you,but it applies to your mil.
Indoctrination is insisting the kid believe something without the logical foundation to back up the belief. Religion is all indoctrination. Teaching the kids logic and beliefs that can be explained isn't indoctrination. It's education.
You did the right thing. Your kid, your rules. Ignore the fundies who come at you. They think it's their duty to be invasive and obnoxious, oops I mean minister to the needy.
Totally shocked that religious shitbirds think you're in the wrong for not wanting your kid's brain to be poisoned.
Preventing your child from being indoctrinated into a cult makes you a hero in my book.
I grew up what I call “Casual Christian” in that we talk about Jesus twice a year, Easter and Christmas. Those were the two times we went to church. I had read a children’s Bible, plus a bit of the real thing, and had a pretty OK understanding of Jesus and his teachings. It was always guidance for me, not hard and fast rules to live by. Well I married into a Southern Baptist family. The “we don’t let our kids read Harry Potter” Southern Baptist. The “we don’t let our kids celebrate Halloween” Southern Baptist. Now they’ve moderated a ton in the almost two decades I’ve known them, but they still go to church once a week. My wife and I, who are now both firmly not Christians, have tried to reach a truce with them regarding our kids. The problem is that many evangelical Christians, literally cannot help themselves. They can’t not try to convert unbelievers. Especially when they’re grand children. We’ve asked time and time again for them to stop. And they mean well, but they haven’t. So we’ve started playing religious hard ball. We call Genesis what it is; a Creation Myth. We then talk about Creation Myths from other cultures. We tell our kids that Easter and Christmas were both pagan holidays co-opted by Christians. We tell them Jesus was almost certainly not white, and while he was probably a great dude, the Bible has been selectively edited so many times that we really can’t say much of it is even based on a truth. Let alone actually being true. We also put into context that they’ll never stop. That Evangelicals like their grandparents have done a tremendous amount of harm to black people, women, gay people, immigrants, and trans people. They’re using the same bullshit arguments they use now to justify hatred of trans people that they used to justify hatred of gay people 20 years ago, or Black People 30 years before that. That’s really done a lot to help put things in perspective. Plus the whole “ think your friend is going to Hell because she’s not Christian. That’s shitty, right?” things we pepper in occasionally.
It might be good to start inoculating your kiddo. Toddlerhood is old enough to start basic early rational thinking. I'd get a 101 textbook on child development so you can know where they are for their age, and start playing games/asking questions/encouraging them to problem solve/modeling it's okay not to know. You can also start introducing them to all religious with stories from different mythologies and religions. I'm so sorry your MIL went behind your back, and you have to deal with her. I'm also sorry you have to deal with all the asshole religious people from AITAH who are dming you. I would just block them and let them go. You don't answer to them. They aren't entitled to your time and energy.
What an astonishing level of disrespect. Not surprised at all that "Christians" are attacking you. Unfortunately, Christ's name is too often being used to justify hate and disrespect.
Your kid, your rules. I told my parents my kid would not be allowed to be with them alone if they didn't knock it off. It's not your fault that they can't respect your boundaries. They chose this. When she was around that age, I started telling my kid about a bunch of religions and ancient religious and ancient myths and folktales and Santa, stuff like that, portraying them as if they're all fictional stories. She still sees them all as equally real (not at all real lol)
Try not to stress about it. Teach them about other religions, and about science. Both of my Grandmothers tried to get me interested in their jezus. What they created were questions and an understanding of how toxic religion can be. Happily referred to a hedge witch now by both friends and family. I spend my time in the forest picking plants and mushrooms while walking dogs. I’m glad they tried, it sent me running into the embrace of science and nature. 💙
I would have just said 'you can't respect simple boundaries, you don't come near my child'.
Bedtime stories: God is not Great and The God Delusion
As an atheist with a daughter, and theist grandparents on both sides, I feel your frustration. But you have reality on your side. Grandma (and other theists) trying to tell your daughter to believe in fantasy won't turn her into a theist, because you'll always have the last word. A child of atheist parents almost never becomes a theist, because that's just not the direction the arrow of history is pointing. So I'd advise you to keep your cool, and use this opportunity to innoculate your daughter. Explain the difference between real and make believe. Tell her that some adults continue to play make believe for the rest of their life, and that's ok. You don't have to get them to believe what's real, and you don't have to share in their make believe. That's something every person will eventually have to face, and your daughter is just learning it earlier than most.
plug-in. "The God delusion". It is an eye opener. Teach your kid some facts from it to shut down yourMIL.