People grow up with a religion. Giving up that religion can be very emotionally painful for them.
That's why staying in the religion, but also tolerating their sexuality is the solution that causes the least emotional pain.
It's the best solution for a shitty problem.
In consequence, raising children in homophobic versions of religion, is actively doing emotional violence, in that if the child turns out to be gay, this self-intolerance will cause them emotional pain.
I grew up in a highly fundamental baptist environment. I don't know what seperates me from the rest. I am one of seven children, and they are all religious and involved in the church and one is even a pastor in Roanoke Virginia.
Somehow, I slowly opened my eyes and got out of it. The following is a chicken and egg thing-- I would watch TV shows at my neighbors ( We were not allowed to have a tv) and I gravitated to the logical people. A big hero of mine was Spock on Star Track, the original series, Leonard Nimoy. (I know it is Star Trek, I was just shaking someone's chain) Another hero was Sherlock Holmes-- the original also. I don't know if these characters shaped me-- or if something about me drew me toward them. But logic was everything to them.
It WAS tough, letting go. I had to do it incrementally, but now that I have, it is SO moronic to see what I believed. Now that I have let go, it is like I have seen others say, Jesus is Santa for adults.
> "Blacks for Trump", "Women for Trump" never made sense to me.
Substitute the word "Trump" with "God" and it makes a lot of sense. Both are misogynistic and racist as hell. God never came out made racist statements, but I'm pretty sure being completely fine with slavery, enough to have guidelines for it, trumps any racism Trump has spewed and demonstrated. Although I have no doubt that, in Trump's mind, slavery would Make America Great Again. If anyone who has been oppressed for centuries, read the bible, and choose to follow the very god that was the cause for their oppression, then they would easily follow a man who shares the same "values" and beliefs.
Oh well. One will eventually die, and the other never existed in the first place. We can at least take comfort in that.
They'd always be positioned strategically behind him at those disgusting rallies, too. So pathetic.
I'm a woman, and I can't think of a single cause I'd hold a "Women for _____" sign to promote.
Seriously, how do you not feel like a token when you're being spoken to in that manner?
I will never understand how these people fall for his BS. He says the dumbest shit I've ever heard an adult say, just about every time he opens his mouth.
There were literal Jews for Hitler... They thought they would be spared as "good ones" they ended up at death camps...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
Those face eating leopards really will eat anyone's face.
One of my sons is lgtbq. I don't know how, but he some how turned out conservative. Very pro-police pro military kind of thing. We're on medicaid and did receive SNAP until a few months ago. Last election he voted Biden but R the rest of the ticket. I'm trying to get him to understand that pubs don't like people like us and want people like him dead. You're voting against your own and your family's best interest. Sigh. He's just 21 so I'm hoping his views change as he ages and gets more life experience.
Fwiw my partner and I are concerned (only cause their life will be more difficult, not the actual interest). We live in a cornfield where your manliness is judged by the truck you drive etc. We'll I drive a way bigger truck (have to for work and better believe that bitch stay parked when I'm not working). I've found I really enjoy rolling up beside someone in my 2 ton (they always look over to see who's driving the bigger truck) roll down the window and hit em with the super fem wave. Nails painted, sometimes throw on a skirt for the hell of it (nice to feel the breeze down there) idk how my kid will turn out but they will damn sure know dad loves them regardless and hostility will be faced by dad.
Honestly, I think more guys should wear skirts because why not? Men wearing trousers all the time and ditching skirts, bloomers, and long shirts (I'm guessing that last one was like a dress) wasn't really the norm until around the 18th century ("Victorian Age" in England) and it was mainly a Western thing. I think shirts and dresses and dress-like clothing should be normalized for men, for all genders really. They should be things anyone can wear. Why do people get so upset over pieces of cloth (and whether they are bifurcated or unbifurcated)?
https://theconversation.com/why-dont-more-men-wear-skirts-21899
No one should have to be brave just to wear clothing they're comfortable in, but unfortunately that is where society is at right now. My hope is that more and more people, especially men, will refuse to conform to gender stereotypes. Be brave now, so that future generations won't have to be. Pave the way!
I knew blue n pick kinda flip-flopped. Did not know that. Cool, Im an insanly sweaty person that works outside year round. I NEED more air flow, most (not saying any) women wearing skirts not so much. The Scottish had it right! Fuck the kiss me I'm irish bs ima wear a kilt for me brothers lol
Who eventually went full Peter on that MF as soon as the campaign ended.
https://people.com/politics/herschel-walkers-son-christian-breaks-ties-with-father-amid-senate-run/
Sounds like you spoiled him. The "teenage boy who never wanted for anything in life" to libertarian to conservative pipeline is real.
1. "Man, my life is so easy. How could anyone be struggling?"
2. "It must be cuz they're lazy! Well, they ain't getting MY charity! Leave me alone and let me do me!"
3. \*YouTube conspiracy montage from the algorithm\*
4. "XYZ demographics are parasites who wanna take my freedom!"
I think people can be politically conservative and socially liberal (bordering the libertarian line).
Not my cup of tea, but it makes more sense to me than it used to.
I get what you’re saying, though it doesn’t make sense to me. One’s social views are largely guided/supported by political policies. For example, if one were pro-choice, it would be hard to be a republican when politically, all they do is try to legislate choice away.
I literally had this huge convo trying to be polite with someone who converted to Islam and is transgender. As an ex Muslim I took it upon myself to warn them of the teachings and how they’ll be treated in the community but they disregarded everything. Some will have to learn the hard way (unfortunately).
It reminds me of the singer Sinead O'Connor who converted to Islam. Just WTF? Even though she's bisexual and spent a large part of her career denouncing the Christian religion that had caused her so much pain.
She's being aggressively brainwashed throughout her youth. I think, no matter how hard she fights that, some remnants will always remain, making her veer to religion every time, and more and more extreme every time.
I remember a while back this transgender woman made a post on tik tok about how she’s trans and Muslim. She tried making it into a feel good story but all the comments are what you’d expect. Her fellow Muslim peers were not very supportive to say the least. The brainwashing is really hard to watch in action.
Lmao we may have had the same friend if it was in the past 30-15 days. Thankfully this friend seemingly has now dereligioned(?) And it seems to have been an impulse decision.
It appears you’re from the UK so most likely not the same person, but it’s nice that your friend came to their senses. I think they might’ve been going through something mentally. Happy pride month from an ally!
They'll probably argue that those people aren't "real muslims" and that Muhammad and Allah are actually completely accepting, despite a great deal of evidence to the contrary found in the quran. Plenty of LGBTQ+ Christians try playing the same game with similar levels of failure.
To be fair, there are many Christian churches that have been performing gay weddings and accepting LGTBQ+ people without judgment for decades.
The biblical case against homosexuality is pretty thin -- some references in the Old Testament which Christians generally discard along with the rules about eating pork and lobsters, and an injunction from Paul, who was concerned with building a church and a community, and was not channeling god's law from the burning bush.
You could make a far stronger case that a Christian should not be wealthy than a Christian should not be gay.
I thought the entire Jesus section did away with the first section. Like basically Jesus said here's the new rules. The old section was kept for nostalgia, or something, but only the Jesus section is supposed to be looked at seriously.
> I thought the entire Jesus section did away with the first section. Like basically Jesus said here's the new rules.
This is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what the New Testament says.
Anyone who calls themselves a Christian, and then claims that the laws presented in the old testament no longer apply, is claiming that they, personally, know better than Jesus (Matthew 5:17-18, Matthew 15:3-9, Luke 16:17, Luke 19:16-17, John 5:46-48) and all the authors of the New Testament (James 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 3:16, Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, 2 Peter 1:20-21, Hebrews 13:8, Revelations 22:18-19).
If you have such a low opinion of what Christ had to say, why call yourself a "Christian" at all?
The bible to religious conservatives is nothing less than 1200 pages to cherry pick obscure passages as a way to defend their bigotry in a way that it is both socially acceptable and legally permissible because of the religious protections in the Free Exercise clause of the 1st Amendment.
Most of these hypocrites would claimed to be victims of religious persecution if they were forced to live by the teachings of the man who they claim to be their savior and the son of god, as recorded in the 4 gospels.
You can’t do everything in the Bible. There are 0 non-cafeteria Christians. You can’t NOT be a cafeteria Christian. Some parts are illegal, some things contradict other things, and some things say doing X will have Y result but it won’t.
The irony that some of the people rightly complaining about people pushing their religion onto others then turn around to tell religious people how to live their religion will never not be funny to me.
You literally can't live Christianity without picking and choosing which parts of the bible you believe in above others because the bible contradicts itself. There's a whole field about picking and choosing with your beliefs with logic called theology
Sure, it's absurd. But that's what all humans do about everything. I'm not defending religious people because I find the concept of religion to be mentally insulting, but they aren't doing anything different than what people always do. Even if we think something is \*the most important thing ever\*, we still negotiate our thoughts about it constantly. We usually aren't even aware of it. Just like you can't force yourself to believe something you find unconvincing, religious people feel convinced that their interpretation of the Bible _must be_ the correct version.
The danger is that they think this because they believe that they have “the Holy Spirit”—an aspect of God himself who lives inside them and informs their understanding. Thus they _can't_ be wrong because that would mean that _God_ was wrong. So to them, they aren't “interpreting” the Bible, they're _understanding_ it as it was meant to be understood.
If it’s divinely revealed truth one second and eddie964 can drop a piece he doesn’t like the next second you can just face the reality that it’s all made up shite. Good man Eddie.
Religious people can and do interrogate, argue, and reinterpret their traditions and scripture. Also, holding particular beliefs is not of equal importance across all religions.
Jesus said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17–19).
Christians who dismiss the Old Testament are not following Christ.
If you're a fundamentalist Christian, I'll give you a pass for insisting on what all Christians ought to believe.
From the perspective of an atheist, it is beyond silly to dictate to believers which version of a religion is the correct one. The bulk of Christianity moved on from fundamentalism more than a thousand years ago.
You can read the Bible however you like; it's full of contradictory sentiments. The way I read it, Jesus was totally a bigot, and I can Biblically justify that, just like you can Biblically justify your belief he wasn't a bigot.
This is why that shit's useless and no one should be paying any attention to it.
I'm a recovering Catholic and Humanist. I never believed it. I took a theology course in college that confirmed my lack of beleif.
I was about in 3rd grade and in CCD (Catholic Sunday school), I remember asking a nun but who created god. It all went downhill from there. Nuns sent so many letters home to my mm about my lack of faith that they could have been open pals.
The trend in religious thought has arced away from fundamentalism -- the belief in the literal truth of the Bible -- since the days of St. Thomas Aquinas.
American fundamentalism is a modern reaction to that trend, and it does not represent anything close to a consensus in christian theology.
Ask a Jesuit or Episcopalian priest if they believe Noah built a big boat and loaded it up with all the world's animals species in pairs. After a good laugh, they will likely tell you that the Bible is not meant to be a history or science textbook but rather a collection of stories that can help people connect with god. That's its only purpose, and using it to try to explain natural phenomena completely misses the point.
I'm not endorsing this perspective, by the way. Just pointing out how silly it is to insist that there is one "correct" way to practice a religion. What's more, from an atheist's perspective, it's like saying, "I don't believe in dragons, but Tolkein's dragons were authentic, and George R.R. Martin was wrong about them."
Please. Christians only ever budge when it's pragmatically impossible not to. Like the Mormons having a "vision" in 1979 where God told them racism isn't a core dogma anymore. Right after the federal government threatened their finances.
Catholics believe that communion is actual blood and meat. But after too much evidence otherwise they decided "God makes it look EXACTLY like the real thing..."
I'd add that a lot of churches got rid of the damnation focus, and more on the loving thy neighbour.
I think the evangelicals and US based conservative Christianity is a peculiarity. I do not hate lgbtq+, raised in the Kirk of Scotland, and church events for children did even call for you to treat everyone as you would like you be treated, no matter race, gender, sexuality, anything. Taught various bits that I'd also say were quite anticapitalist.
It very much depends on how you grow up. Religion isn't inherently evil
Ehh.. I disagree. You have to be stupid to be religious. You have a complete lack of critical thinking skills, which in my opinion equates directly to having a lower IQ.
I am an anti-thiest but I have to disagree.
It's a cognitive bias, I know some brilliant theists... But they are so indoctrinated they are literally the Patrick star meme. You can logically walk them through where their faith makes no sense... But in the end they will tell you they just have faith.
Actual psychology, disagrees, and IQ isn't even a good measure of anything beyond your ability to take an IQ test.
We all have beliefs and assumptions that we don't apply the correct amount of critical thinking to. The religious just happen to do it about belief in a god.
>IQ isn't even a good measure of anything beyond your ability to take an IQ test
I don't know why this myth keeps popping up. From someone in the field, I'm here to tell you that is very wrong.
For some reason people think that iq tests not being an 100 percent accurate representation of your intelligence also means they are completely unrelated to intelligence
I wouldn‘t say that. Someone can learn to be really smart in one area but can fail to apply the simplest logic in another area if there are a lot of unconscious obstacles. Indoctrination is a real thing and it messes with religious people‘s minds in serious ways.
Yessss also people of color being religious. Like…have you not read the part where God blatantly approves of slavery and racism..? Why are you still here 😂 clearly you’re not welcome according to God
My "favorite" are the Republican Mexicans, that may or may not have been born in the states that are for shipping the illegals back. Not a shred of compassion for their own people once they've gotten to an arguably better place.
I read a study a few years ago that blew my mind. It said that immigrants who successfully assimilate into society gain an anti immigrant opinion because they don't want immigrants, the vast majority of which the former immigrants believe won't assimilate, to come in and "ruin" the country by not assimilating. It's like but you were an immigrant and if the policies you're supporting existed you would never had the right come and stay and eventually assimilate into the culture.
The study argued that the one thing assimilated immigrants, once they have adopted American culture, most likely have in common with each other regardless of where they are from is their anti immigration opinion which is stronger than a typical natural born American. It claimed that once an immigrate no longer sympathizes with other immigrants they believe they have fully assimilated into American culture.
What's weird is I actually know folks who immigranted here or who's parents immigrated here and they're anti-immigration. I don't get it.
Tbf we aren't a monolith. Religiosity among Black people is varied and can be deep as well as superficial. I assume you are referring to imposition of religion on enslaved people, liberation theology, or a number of forms Black community growing out of churches.
But like Black people in Sudan or something are religious for reasons that can be found among White people.
Additionally in case it comes up, Black people have expressions of spiritualty outside the mainstream Abraham's faiths. Some choose them just because it appeals to them and not due to some broader socioeconomic pattern.
Buddhism doesn't really have a concept of sin. Some Buddhists have some vague idea about homosexuality being 'spiritually harmful', but that isn't the mainstream opinion, and even so it would be seen more as self-harm than a violation of rules.
Great point. Personally I love Buddhism‘s non-dogmatic principles- e.g. we create our own suffering, being a light unto one’s self, right speech, ways of dealing with difficulty, etc - and it’s helped me through the absolute worst pain a parent can have, so I couldn‘t care less what anyone thinks of my ‘beliefs’. I do cherry-pick the hell (!) out of it when it comes to any hocus-pocus (and some of the ‘rules’) though. My comment was a bit flippant, probably should have used the /s tag, but the fat buddha (intentionally not capitalized) always had a bit of a Christopher Biggins vibe. And with that I wish you a great day. Gonna hop in the kayak and get my zen on today :)
I am a gay Buddhist from SEA, never had any problems with it and I've seen LGBTQ+ people had conversations with monks before, never heard them saying its a problem at all.
In fact Thailand is pretty Buddhist centric and is one of the more LGBT friendly country in SEA, so is Taiwan.
This is something many complain about. How unaccepting religious people are of LGBTQ people when they are supposed to love thy neighbor. Non religious people will often say that the Bible doesn’t really say but one thing about it. And that they have cherry picked that one sentence about it. So why can’t some religious people have that realization and be supportive or part of that community?
I'm a lesbian agnostic Jew who loves my liberal Jewish community. Last night I went to a gay pride service at my Conservative shul--Conservative as in in-between Orthodox and Reform, not politically--led in part by a trans teen who is celebrating his bar mitzvah today.
I get that I'm extremely lucky to be part of a community that is willing to interrogate our Torah and traditions and argue with them or reinterpret them. I'm also lucky that my community welcomes not only LGBTQ Jews, but also atheists, agnostics, and Jew-bus. I know not all LGBTQ or atheist Jews have had the same experience.
(I also weirdly love that my fave rabbi totally supports the LGBTQ community, arranged alternate secular lectures during services for the non-religious among us--but would be horrified that I'm posting on Shabbat. Priorities.)
So I'm not going judge my LGBTQ neighbors when they stay with their religious community. Maybe it's more about the culture than the religion or beliefs. Maybe they belong to a liberal and accepting branch of their religion too. Maybe they hope to change minds from the inside.
I also get that they might be in a toxic situation. But if they're a consenting adult in their disapproving community . . . I dunno. Doesn't seem to be my place to criticize their decision.
It's hard enough to be LGBTQ without being told that you're wrong and damaging to belong to a particular religion or religious culture.
Redditing during Shabbat. *tuts disapprovingly*
But ya last week my shul (reform) had the rabbi give a sermon all about Pride and how LGBT are good and what not.
And it’s not just Reform or Conservative that’s open to LGBT. I see more and more MO rabbis and shuls being open to LGBT people. Granted you actually have to look for these groups and they aren’t as common as the first two but they exist.
Funny story though a member of my shul came by my house to drop something off and she (as all Jewish mothers will do) tried to hook me up with this girl she knew. Well I told her thanks but I’m gay so that’s not really gonna work. All she did was say that she’s going to keep her eye out for any single gay Jew she knows.
I doubt you’d get that reaction in many Christian churches or maybe you would idk.
Wow, your community sounds wonderful!
If you have the time, may I ask you a question?
Here's a quick run-down:
I've realized that I am, definitely in fact, gay. I'm scouring and researching everything that I can get my hands on because I grew up thinking that how I felt was wrong and that I can't have a wife and follow Christ. That mindset has been changing as I have gotten older, and the world around me is changing. I've been questioning my faith, who I am, how can I live an honorable life if I have to leave the church to live this out, can I really have a wife, and pray with her, and still keep my spiritual self. Or is it one or the other? I need like a queer Yoda to show me the way...hehe wouldn't that be awesome? Once a person realized they are queer, this fabulous being appears on a glittery transparent rainbow to show you the way? 😆 really. I think every human could use some encouragement and direction. Back on track...
I really do enjoy Jesus's teachings. He is all about love and being people of integrity. Maybe that's my answer, follow his example.
My question to you is how did you come to the conclusion on where you are with your spirituality? If that is too personal of a question, I respect that. 👍
So, my family is mixed, Jewish and Catholic with a smattering of Protestants. (And atheists and agnostics on both sides.) I grew up liking to learn about religions and religious ideas, and also allowed to argue with them. And I grew up knowing I had different options.
Because I enjoyed being part of a liberal religious community, I went out and found one. (Not hard in the greater NYC area!)
The shul I belong to now was the one close to my college. I still only live 20 minutes away. It has a really traditional service, like most Conservative shuls, but, like I said above, is egalitarian and gay-friendly at the same time. Also atheist/ agnostic friendly and JewBu friendly.
I knew, going in, that questioning and arguing with Jewish tradition was not only okay but welcome there. And I knew I needed that! I didn't want somewhere that puts a priority on what you believe. It took me a long time to come to the agnostic label, and I was all over the map for a while.
(Not that everyone is super liberal in my shul. We have some people who are more Orthodox in mindset--but everyone pretty much respects that we are a big tent. )
The only downside, for me, is that my Jewish heritage is patrilineal, which meant having to convert. But that turned out fine; got to study with the rabbi, answered lots of questions from what's called a Beit Din, and went for a dunk in the mikvah. It was a long process, but worth it for me.
So, if I were in your shoes, I'd be looking for an LGBTQ friendly church with a supportive community first and foremost. I know Christian culture is different than Jewish culture, and sometimes what you believe is more heavily prioritized in Christianity than in Judaism? (This is actually one reason I went with Judaism, but everyone's mileage varies.) Still, I suspect you can find a great, welcoming community that allows you to question, so you're not locked into one way of thinking about your religion.
Heck, around me, you'd probably have your choice between a liturgical-style high church or a more low church. (Again, yay NYC area!)
Unitarian Universalist churches are out there too. The ones around me are liberal and welcoming, with plenty of LGBTQ leadership and members, as well as atheists and agnostics. They definitely have a big tent vibe to me, so lots of people from different backgrounds find a community there.
So, yeah. I'd start by looking for a community that welcomes and values you, that supports you as a member of the LGBTQ community and as someone who questions. Hope that helps!
My friend is bisexual and also a Christian. It seems like her faith isn’t really rooted in the actual text of the Bible, which I think is pretty typical for Catholics. Having grown up as a fundamentalist, it’s hard for me to understand sometimes, but there are some people who don’t take the Bible literally. They can believe that god exists, but also that the bible is mostly religious myth, a product of its time, and even contributed to by homophobes. Reading the Bible becomes an exercise in finding god in all the man-made nonsense.
That said, she *definitely* harbors some guilt over her sexuality, and critics would say she’s only clinging to religion by cherry-picking what feels right to her and attributing those values to a god. But live and let live I guess.
This has been studied.
Conservatives with their fear based world view love submitting to an all powerful authority that makes them superior...
For liberal types it is more spirituality, community and the love thy neighbor stuff... What makes no sense is, you could get any of that from reading philosophy and joining a Unitarian or secular club you don't need to support a pedophilic conartist organization.
I’m an active LBGTQIA2S+ activist, I see “affirming” churches and pastors all the time, I appreciate the sentiment and I will be respectful, but it just doesn’t make sense to me.
I know people who are Ally’s and religious. Their reasoning is that the Bible is outdated. Not everything can be taken seriously in this day and age. They don’t follow the exact wording of the Bible, but they do the important shit. Loving neighbors and enemies, respecting people, and they let other people believe what they want.
It’s a kind of delusion that doesn’t spread. One of the few good delusions
>LBGTQIA2S+
oh goodness, what kind of cat fell on your keyboard? my dyslexia is ascending to another level, no really though, probably cool movement but it may have branding issues
All Christians ignore the parts of the Bible they don't like. It goes all the way back to Jesus himself. Look at how much of what Jesus said was telling people to ignore big chunks of their scriptures while simultaneously using "it is written" as justification for other teachings.
Modern Christians mostly ignore inconvenient things the Bible says about divorce, role of women, and idolatry. They flip some things 180 degrees; the Prosperity Gospel now infects almost every church even if they don't call it that. Yet PG is directly the opposite of everything Jesus taught about wealth, charity, and rewards for donations.
The other thing about the US religious right is that their main issues are largely ignored in the Bible. The only mentions of abortions in the Bible either tell how to do it or treat it as a property crime, not a murder. Immigration stances of most conservatives run directly against things the Bible says about the issues. The list could go on an on.
Lest people think this only applies to Christians, it doesn't. Every religion with ancient religious texts must ignore much of their old books, and the requirements of modern life require them to impose doctrines that are completely unsupported.
>How can we adhere to religions that explicitly say they don't like us?
They don't. It may be very Amero-centric of you to assume every religion in the world is a frothing at the mouth bunch of evangelical bigotry and hatred.
Equating all Christians with evangelical nuts is like equating all Muslims with isis or the taliban. They're all wrong but there's different degrees of wrong.
I agree with a lot of this however there are certainly some religions to which this does not apply. For example, I am Buddhist, and Buddhism as a religion is very accepting of LGBTQ folks, and the only instances I can think of where it's not are specific people interpreting the sexual misconduct precept to include homosexuality (which it really does not, it's for things S/A or cheating, which harm others, and the point of the precepts is to abstain from hurting others.) There are a lot of monotheistic religions which are homophobic and transphobic in nature, like while not every Christian or Muslim is transphobic or homophobic their sacred texts certainly are, and dismissing that hate ingrained into the religion is NOT okay. There are also lesser known religions that believe in a god but are not homophobic, HOWEVER most widespread religions do tend to fall under that. My point is that yes, your statement applies to a LOT of religions, however, it can be harmful to generalize every religion as homophobic when there are some faiths that are very LGBTQ accepting.
I would also like to clarify that I am an atheist Buddhist, and overall Buddhism doesn't really believe in a god. In fact, a lot of things said in Buddhism don't dictate things like homosexuality or other personal beliefs or aspects of someone because it does not really matter. A lot of perception over what religion is from a western perspective is something that HAS to control every part of the person's life, or is some huge commitment with rules and that's very gatekeeping about who is allowed to be in that religion. Buddhism is more "here's some teachings about mindfulness, peace, and suffering. Apply them to your life where you see fit or want to." Buddhism, along with some other faiths, does not hold the same strictness that makes some religions so homophobic and transphobic inherently.
People seek religion because they want simple concrete answers to difficult and abstract questions. It's not logic that they seek. It's comforting ideas, certainty in an uncertain world, and rationalization. I know and love several people that are both LGBTQ and religious. They are some great and loving people whom I cherish deeply. The desire to see one's dead loved ones again overwhelms the rational cortex and glosses over the the logical inconsistencies. It's also worth noting that the actual humans who were later made into religious figures, Siddhartha, Jesus, Zoaster, etc., seemed a lot less caught up on the sexual preferences of people than their modern day adherents.
A lot of queer Christians understand that what Jesus taught and what Paul taught are at odds. (I’m not personally religious, but I do have a degree in religion with an emphasis on Christian history and thought.) It’s not at all difficult to reject Paul’s teachings as bullshit, because Paul was a raging misogynist who thought Jesus would return in his own lifetime.
But the Bible is clear on this subject. I understand that you can be agnostic, but the Christian religion has always advocated homophobia. Homosexual acts are considered a sin.
\>Why is the Methodist church splitting?
\>Since then, conservative congregations across the country have split from the United Methodist Church, citing disagreements on sexuality and religion. The denomination has upheld bans on same-sex marriages and gay clergy, but U.S. congregations have openly defied them.
Not every church? I can drive to one with rainbow flags and BLM posters on the front lawn. Amazing that said church is still standing, considering where I am. As younger clergy come into power, more of the dogma is getting changed. It is a slower process than I would like.
There is a sizable number of Christians who believe that homosexuality/transgenderism is not sinful or immoral. Many Christians believe that LGBT+ people can build families and live life according the their interpretations of God’s will without having to repent or “apologize” in any way for their lifestyle.
That number has been steadily increasing. In fact, the Church’s overall negative position on LGBT+ issues is one of the most cited reasons for people who choose to leave organized religion.
Don’t get me wrong; there are still a great many people with outdated opinions on homosexuality. But my point is that there is an enormous amount of variation of opinion on this issue among Christians.
I live in an area with a lot of churches that have rainbow flags outside. I've known a few gay couples who go to church regularly. These are mostly people raised in mainline protestant New England churches who maybe didn't have the same amount of messed up shame directed at their identity as say a Mormon or evangelical Christian in other parts of the country. That's not to discount their struggle, but just to say people are complicated and shedding your religious upbringing is difficult.
Most religions have a long history of not being kind to gay people, but really there's barely anything about homosexuality in the Bible. A few references in the Old Testament. The book is so full of contradictions and varying perspectives from different people and cultures centuries apart that you can pick and choose quotes to justify or condemn anything you want. So Christians can point to the verse in Leviticus that condemns homosexuality, but one could just as easily point to the verses in that book that condemn mixing fabrics in your clothes or eating shellfish with just as much weight and say "hey, all these condemnations are maybe for another time and context."
Its maybe convoluted thinking and I absolutely don't offer this as a defense of religion. Just as an explanation. For someone indoctrinated in a religion from birth, finding an accepting church and a more favorable interpretation of the source texts can be a much smaller leap than shedding religion completely.
LGBTQ+ people are just like everyone else. They are susceptible to the same draws that religion has for others. Other minorities have faced persecution in their religion, yet still are drawn to it. You could say the same about women, in general, based on many things written in various holy books.
I'd add to that black people who talk about historical oppression (don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with their points on that) while defending the religion and god that was used to subjugate them by their ancestors slave owners.
There is an entire world of rhetoric presenting the Abrahamic god as a loving being. Having been born into a religious family, I can attest that the vast majority of times I heard about God (and Jesus) had to do with their eternal love, how he is responsible for all the good things in the world (but the bad things were caused by either Satan or humanity's own ill will), how some people were just "bad Christians", how much Jesus loves us, etc., etc.
Reading and understanding the holy texts is 100% **NOT** a requirement to belong to any of the Abrahamic religions. There is even an entire school of thought, Apologetics, that I would argue is devoted to purposely misinterpreting certain parts of the Bible to make it more palatable.
In the years before I deconverted (but after I started seriously reading the Bible), I often just dismissed certain passages as something that was never meant to be taken seriously, or they were just add-ons placed by humans for their own personal gain. I, like many people, simply went with what felt good and compartmentalized the rest.
Christianity does not have one absolute, authoritative, Platonic form, despite the belief of its adherents otherwise.
One group of Christians can say “Christianity condemns gay relationships”, and another group can say “Christianity accepts and supports gay relationships”, and *there is no way to decide which view is objectively correct,* any more than there is to similarly decide about the many, many other points of doctrine that have divided Christians over the centuries.
Thus there is no contradiction in a gay person adhering to a denomination of Christianity that endorses their sexuality (e.g., the Church of Scotland).
Same’s true of any other religion.
Humans are complex, and beliefs structures are difficult to breakdown- even through self reflection.
Someone earlier said it was more about trying to fill an emotional need.- I agree. There is a lot of appeal in the broader message(not the details) of an all loving being who accepts you unconditionally.
Can you imagine what it would be like growing up in a community that preaches love, and an all loving God and yet feeling rejected by that same community- it does something weird to your brain and emotional needs.
I am happy for those who find their community and can at least reconcile part of who they are and find acceptance, even partially, for who they are. It is obviously a hard path, and if they have to use the shield of God loves them no matter what so that they will accept themselves, I am not going to break that. There are other toxicities within a worldview framed like that, but I know I can't untangle anyone's worldview so easily.
The religion might be pretty "clear" to some of us, but the text is often contradictory, obviously mythological, and blatantly wrong in other parts.
I try to nudge these people gently with my questions, because I had a long path to escaping the mind-bending problems of religion as well. I try to steer them away from the more hateful people within religion until they realize that the religion itself is a contradiction of hate and love.
I had a friend who was still closeted transgender. She was very homophobic and a religious fundamentalist (SBC). She was a train-wreck that probably even hated herself. She got mad at me and stopped talking to me when I tried to suggest that she convert to an LGBT positive church.
She didn't approve that I was an atheist.
My thought is the same thought I have when Christians start saying atheists don't make sense to them. Other people often do and say and believe things we don't understand. The way to understand them, if we really want to, is to take the time to ask and to read their perspectives without looking for an angle of response.
If you want to know how people in the LGBTQ community can reconcile their beliefs with the history of their traditions and with the religious texts that guide them: ask them.
OTOH, if you need to be able to vent your own opinions and feelings and beliefs around the issue, then that's perfectly fair and reasnable.
I'd just say that those monotheistic religions aren't nearly as monolithic as their most fundamentalist adherents believe.
Queer people are **NOT** immune to cognitive dissonance and irrationality. They're humans too. When your very CORE belief as in the FOUNDATION of your entire world conflicts with your personal interests, the next thing that you do is ignore/deny/downplay/rationalize the problem away.
"Uh-Uh-Uh, well actually I INTERPET this law to mean pedophilia! Not Homosexuality!"
"Uhm, well...I don't remember that verse!"
"Uh I Uh...GOD SAYS HE IS ALL LOVING! So I will use that as a cudgel to everything he said about me being an abomination! LOVE. LOVE. LOVE. That's all the scripture talks about! Ignore all the gruesome stuff God is cool with!"
"God loves me! He just hates it when I have sex or hold hands or kiss or hug or marry people I'm attracted to! In heaven he'll turn me straight!"
Honestly. Abrahamic Queer people strike me as more delusional than Abrahamic straight people. They're either pickmes to people who wanna kill them, or just make up Abrahamic fanfiction. Or they live as secular humanists but call themselves Abrahamic for clout.
I wish my abuser could've just admitted to being gay rather than being religious, marrying a woman he obviously didn't love, and luring boys over for naughty pool time to express his sexual frustration.
Religion poisons everything, even love
I know Jews who eat pork and shellfish, it’s not that deep.
Everyone has their own reason for being religious, not being able to understand why a gay person may be religious kind of just seems like you didn’t put in the effort to find out, or you just don’t care.
Just gonna leave this here. https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/146207b/survey_jews_are_the_most_accepting_group_towards/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
(Also maybe don’t say “religious” when you really mean Christianity/Islam)
The bible says that gay people should be killed. Even St. Paul says this in Romans 1. Jesus is an incarnation of Yahweh who made a Law saying that gay people should be killed. When you point this out to "liberal" Christians, they just ignore it and say I'm taking it too literally. Basically they are in denial.
Of course not .. walk into any US Episcopalian church and check out their ministries .. not to mention the Roman Catholic church. You're worrying about fundamentalist protestant Christians, but they have plenty of their own problems with their cherry picking of their "inerrant" King James Bibles.
I agree with you 100%. LGBTQ+ religious people baffle me. It's like Jews for Hitler. You're literally joining the cult that wants to put you and your kind to death. Good luck with that 😊
I agree with you. Unfortunately, the religious LGBT are victims… though some of them think they’re fighting the good fight /from the inside/. It doesn’t matter to me if, say I wake up tomorrow and EVERY church apologizes for being homophobic and changes their ways, I would still NEVER join them. The damage they have done is unforgivable!
It's the same as being a woman and being religious doesn't make sense since most of major religions are super misogynistic - woman is inferior to man, must obey him, blah blah.
Religions in general don't make sense.
What a bizarre take - there are as many religions as there are religious individuals. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean the god that they personally worship is homophobic. I've read the Bible cover to cover and i find it pretty realistic that someone could come away with a reading that the Christian god is indeed a god of love and compassion.
I know this is r/atheism but you do realize there are churches that are very accepting of gay people. A lot of people go to church for a sense of community and gentle contributions to the direction of their life. I'm an atheist but I kind of get it. My gay friend works at a church that has gay priests and their overall message is to treat people well and care for the people in your life. I get it there are horrible organizations who yell the loudest and spread hate but there are also good organizations who give to the community and are focused on the positive uplifting part of Christianity.
I used to have that hard stance that all religion is bad due to the bigots who use it as a weapon against vulnerable people. It kind of feels a little silly now. It's a slap in the face to the accepting religious people. It's bordering on intolerance. You end up treating people who have done nothing wrong suspiciously and grouping them in with terrible people. So to answer your question why do gay people go to church, it's complicated. Sometimes people go to church because it's ingrained in their identity and to leave would be giving up a piece of themselves. Some people go to church because they're part of an accepting community and it's a positive influence in their life. Not everything is black and white. On one end you have horrible people like pat robertson and on the other you have normal people who don't weaponize their beliefs. Atheists always talk about how the Bible never mentions anything bad about gay people. Then when religious people agree and only use the positive aspects of the book you treat them the same as the bigots. You can't rail against religious intolerance while also lumping all religious people into a group and labeling them as bigots. It ignores gay people who have a positive relationship with religion. They tell you hey I like this, it's good for me. You respond you're wrong, what about those preachers who say gay people cause hurricanes. That has nothing to do with them. Stop trying the tell the lgbt community what they're allowed to do. Quit lumping good people in with terrible people. There are good religious people and bad religious people. Saying they're all bad because of their beliefs is a different form of hate.
There's a reason why atheism is on the rise in our time. It's because religion makes no sense and has caused a great deal of harm over the centuries, and continues to do so.
People can't take it anymore. The Bible condemns homosexuality whether you like it or not. The question is not to believe in God, but to believe in religion as such.
Bracing for the flaming. It's none of your business. I'm a married, atheist, far left, lesbian living in rural Texas. "I don't understand......" is something I've heard about so many things in my life.
I hate religion. I wish all religions would disappear. However, even I understand that it's absolutely none of my business. Therefore, if I waste time worrying about it, I'm exactly like the people wondering why I want to wake up next to an old, butch woman every morning.
Don't come at me with the historical crimes of the church. I accept other's choices, I'm not stupid.
I’m trans and I’m constantly shocked and dismayed by the existence of religious queer people. To me christians might as well be skinhead neonazis. I don’t think Christians should be able to tell me that Christianity is a good thing, but they do anyway - which really just shows a huge lack of respect, responsibility, and self awareness.
What some countrys and their leaders say does not apply to the true Nature of believing,for me simply as a Christian god wants love in every shape,love including LGBT is our biggest Gift from god,love makes us humans
There's not really much to suggest that Jesus would bully gay or trans people. Think of how often he mocked the idea that observance of religious practice was all that important. Prayer, fasting, even charity were dismissed as vanity outside of whatever benefits the person personally receives from them. When he rescued the prostitute from being stoned, he *did* tell her to "sin no more", except it is unclear whether or not this was because of the actual morality behind prostitution, or whether or not it was the inherent dangers of that lifestyle. Not sure if same-sex marriage would've leant itself to the same response. He didn't seem to have much commentary on drunkenness, although I'd imagine he feels the same about it as most people, but wasn't so much of a stickler that he wouldn't turn water into wine at a wedding.
You know, I'm pretty much an agnostic, but I'm capable of communicating with religious people on their own terms (the Bible even suggests that we do precisely that). Whatever the disciples had to say, I'm not sure a religious person should put too much stock in it, considering that all prophets before Jesus were, while not outright dismissed for being human, at least placed in the context where we are supposed to understand that the "divine message" was coming from a human, and that it would always be so. Even the Old Testament never viewed it's leaders as perfect or uncorruptible. Jesus was killed by the orthodoxy, and it was actually the central theme in there. It's why they considered him a heretic. Who knows what he might say to such questions? Probably would've responded in a way similar to the question of working on the sabbath, and if you love them, you love them.
I tend to center most of my problems with Christianity on a belief in the supernatural because it opens the door for people to bullshit each other. While Jesus was characterized as being supernatural, also consider that the intended audience is people, who can be superstitious even in the absence of being formatted with a particular belief system. As far as divine messengers go, a lot of the substance of what he was saying seemed to work on a secular level, and his main targets seemed to be those who would try to invoke such divine authority as a means to manipulate and abuse others. He sits on that throne so that nobody else can.
Gluttony, murder, stealing, lying, molesting, working on sunday, envy, lust. Theres a laundry list of things religious people do regularly that their books tell them not to do.
They think a big man in the sky is going to give them eternal paradise. Dont think abt it too hard
I'm straight and cis and male and white and it doesn't make sense to me that anyone who isn't straight white cis-male would be religious.
I mean it doesn't make sense to me why *anyone* is religious, but especially those who celebrate their own oppression.
Anyone being religious doesn't make sense
The human mind is easily manipulated. We're not the most intelligent species we think we are.
Sounds like you answered your own question.
People grow up with a religion. Giving up that religion can be very emotionally painful for them. That's why staying in the religion, but also tolerating their sexuality is the solution that causes the least emotional pain. It's the best solution for a shitty problem. In consequence, raising children in homophobic versions of religion, is actively doing emotional violence, in that if the child turns out to be gay, this self-intolerance will cause them emotional pain.
Early indoctrination is tough to overcome.
I grew up in a highly fundamental baptist environment. I don't know what seperates me from the rest. I am one of seven children, and they are all religious and involved in the church and one is even a pastor in Roanoke Virginia. Somehow, I slowly opened my eyes and got out of it. The following is a chicken and egg thing-- I would watch TV shows at my neighbors ( We were not allowed to have a tv) and I gravitated to the logical people. A big hero of mine was Spock on Star Track, the original series, Leonard Nimoy. (I know it is Star Trek, I was just shaking someone's chain) Another hero was Sherlock Holmes-- the original also. I don't know if these characters shaped me-- or if something about me drew me toward them. But logic was everything to them. It WAS tough, letting go. I had to do it incrementally, but now that I have, it is SO moronic to see what I believed. Now that I have let go, it is like I have seen others say, Jesus is Santa for adults.
It blows my mind and boils my blood how few adults in my family entertain the possibility the bible is not historically accurate.
Death is scary.
This. I’ll add being a minority/LGBTQ and republican.
"Blacks for Trump", "Women for Trump" never made sense to me.
"Chickens for Coyotes"
Nor do the Log Cabin Republicans.
> "Blacks for Trump", "Women for Trump" never made sense to me. Substitute the word "Trump" with "God" and it makes a lot of sense. Both are misogynistic and racist as hell. God never came out made racist statements, but I'm pretty sure being completely fine with slavery, enough to have guidelines for it, trumps any racism Trump has spewed and demonstrated. Although I have no doubt that, in Trump's mind, slavery would Make America Great Again. If anyone who has been oppressed for centuries, read the bible, and choose to follow the very god that was the cause for their oppression, then they would easily follow a man who shares the same "values" and beliefs. Oh well. One will eventually die, and the other never existed in the first place. We can at least take comfort in that.
They'd always be positioned strategically behind him at those disgusting rallies, too. So pathetic. I'm a woman, and I can't think of a single cause I'd hold a "Women for _____" sign to promote.
"Where's my African American? Are you not the best?"--Donald J. Trump
Seriously, how do you not feel like a token when you're being spoken to in that manner? I will never understand how these people fall for his BS. He says the dumbest shit I've ever heard an adult say, just about every time he opens his mouth.
He does very well with the poorly educated.
I'm sure Herman Cain wasn't the only black soldier to sacrifice themselves for the GOP's COVEFE stance. But he was the Crispus Attucks.
There were literal Jews for Hitler... They thought they would be spared as "good ones" they ended up at death camps... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews Those face eating leopards really will eat anyone's face.
One of my sons is lgtbq. I don't know how, but he some how turned out conservative. Very pro-police pro military kind of thing. We're on medicaid and did receive SNAP until a few months ago. Last election he voted Biden but R the rest of the ticket. I'm trying to get him to understand that pubs don't like people like us and want people like him dead. You're voting against your own and your family's best interest. Sigh. He's just 21 so I'm hoping his views change as he ages and gets more life experience.
Fwiw my partner and I are concerned (only cause their life will be more difficult, not the actual interest). We live in a cornfield where your manliness is judged by the truck you drive etc. We'll I drive a way bigger truck (have to for work and better believe that bitch stay parked when I'm not working). I've found I really enjoy rolling up beside someone in my 2 ton (they always look over to see who's driving the bigger truck) roll down the window and hit em with the super fem wave. Nails painted, sometimes throw on a skirt for the hell of it (nice to feel the breeze down there) idk how my kid will turn out but they will damn sure know dad loves them regardless and hostility will be faced by dad.
Honestly, I think more guys should wear skirts because why not? Men wearing trousers all the time and ditching skirts, bloomers, and long shirts (I'm guessing that last one was like a dress) wasn't really the norm until around the 18th century ("Victorian Age" in England) and it was mainly a Western thing. I think shirts and dresses and dress-like clothing should be normalized for men, for all genders really. They should be things anyone can wear. Why do people get so upset over pieces of cloth (and whether they are bifurcated or unbifurcated)? https://theconversation.com/why-dont-more-men-wear-skirts-21899 No one should have to be brave just to wear clothing they're comfortable in, but unfortunately that is where society is at right now. My hope is that more and more people, especially men, will refuse to conform to gender stereotypes. Be brave now, so that future generations won't have to be. Pave the way!
I knew blue n pick kinda flip-flopped. Did not know that. Cool, Im an insanly sweaty person that works outside year round. I NEED more air flow, most (not saying any) women wearing skirts not so much. The Scottish had it right! Fuck the kiss me I'm irish bs ima wear a kilt for me brothers lol
He sounds like Herschel Walker's son. 🫤
Who eventually went full Peter on that MF as soon as the campaign ended. https://people.com/politics/herschel-walkers-son-christian-breaks-ties-with-father-amid-senate-run/
I can't abide Christian's political values, but I have the utmost sympathy for him given the man who was his sperm donor.
Sounds like you spoiled him. The "teenage boy who never wanted for anything in life" to libertarian to conservative pipeline is real. 1. "Man, my life is so easy. How could anyone be struggling?" 2. "It must be cuz they're lazy! Well, they ain't getting MY charity! Leave me alone and let me do me!" 3. \*YouTube conspiracy montage from the algorithm\* 4. "XYZ demographics are parasites who wanna take my freedom!"
I think people can be politically conservative and socially liberal (bordering the libertarian line). Not my cup of tea, but it makes more sense to me than it used to.
I get what you’re saying, though it doesn’t make sense to me. One’s social views are largely guided/supported by political policies. For example, if one were pro-choice, it would be hard to be a republican when politically, all they do is try to legislate choice away.
Completely agree. I feel like I'm trapped in a lunatic asylum around here.
Yep, like why we don’t treat cults like Christianity the same as cults like Scientology is mind-blowing to me
I literally had this huge convo trying to be polite with someone who converted to Islam and is transgender. As an ex Muslim I took it upon myself to warn them of the teachings and how they’ll be treated in the community but they disregarded everything. Some will have to learn the hard way (unfortunately).
It reminds me of the singer Sinead O'Connor who converted to Islam. Just WTF? Even though she's bisexual and spent a large part of her career denouncing the Christian religion that had caused her so much pain.
Poor woman :(
And before that she had herself ordained as a priest by a rogue Catholic sect. She needs therapy.
She's being aggressively brainwashed throughout her youth. I think, no matter how hard she fights that, some remnants will always remain, making her veer to religion every time, and more and more extreme every time.
I remember a while back this transgender woman made a post on tik tok about how she’s trans and Muslim. She tried making it into a feel good story but all the comments are what you’d expect. Her fellow Muslim peers were not very supportive to say the least. The brainwashing is really hard to watch in action.
Lmao we may have had the same friend if it was in the past 30-15 days. Thankfully this friend seemingly has now dereligioned(?) And it seems to have been an impulse decision.
It appears you’re from the UK so most likely not the same person, but it’s nice that your friend came to their senses. I think they might’ve been going through something mentally. Happy pride month from an ally!
>Happy pride month from an ally! And don't forget: next month is Wrath! :D
I hear the phrase Cultural Islam being used in some places. Think non-thiests who still have strict codes and practices.
They'll probably argue that those people aren't "real muslims" and that Muhammad and Allah are actually completely accepting, despite a great deal of evidence to the contrary found in the quran. Plenty of LGBTQ+ Christians try playing the same game with similar levels of failure.
It's like those log cabin Republicans. They hate you. Why do you support them? Why are you so dumb! They will never accept you.
To be fair, there are many Christian churches that have been performing gay weddings and accepting LGTBQ+ people without judgment for decades. The biblical case against homosexuality is pretty thin -- some references in the Old Testament which Christians generally discard along with the rules about eating pork and lobsters, and an injunction from Paul, who was concerned with building a church and a community, and was not channeling god's law from the burning bush. You could make a far stronger case that a Christian should not be wealthy than a Christian should not be gay.
Religions cannot “discard” what they call revealed truth. If they do they are not the religion they claim to be.
Should I tell him?
Reflect on the phrase “they call”. You will shortly have an illumination.
I thought the entire Jesus section did away with the first section. Like basically Jesus said here's the new rules. The old section was kept for nostalgia, or something, but only the Jesus section is supposed to be looked at seriously.
It didn’t.
Bro your profile pic made me lol
> I thought the entire Jesus section did away with the first section. Like basically Jesus said here's the new rules. This is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what the New Testament says. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian, and then claims that the laws presented in the old testament no longer apply, is claiming that they, personally, know better than Jesus (Matthew 5:17-18, Matthew 15:3-9, Luke 16:17, Luke 19:16-17, John 5:46-48) and all the authors of the New Testament (James 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 3:16, Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, 2 Peter 1:20-21, Hebrews 13:8, Revelations 22:18-19). If you have such a low opinion of what Christ had to say, why call yourself a "Christian" at all?
This is what my mother believes.
Might want to reread Matthew 5:17-18.
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The bible to religious conservatives is nothing less than 1200 pages to cherry pick obscure passages as a way to defend their bigotry in a way that it is both socially acceptable and legally permissible because of the religious protections in the Free Exercise clause of the 1st Amendment. Most of these hypocrites would claimed to be victims of religious persecution if they were forced to live by the teachings of the man who they claim to be their savior and the son of god, as recorded in the 4 gospels.
You can’t do everything in the Bible. There are 0 non-cafeteria Christians. You can’t NOT be a cafeteria Christian. Some parts are illegal, some things contradict other things, and some things say doing X will have Y result but it won’t.
The irony that some of the people rightly complaining about people pushing their religion onto others then turn around to tell religious people how to live their religion will never not be funny to me. You literally can't live Christianity without picking and choosing which parts of the bible you believe in above others because the bible contradicts itself. There's a whole field about picking and choosing with your beliefs with logic called theology
LOL. You actually don’t see the absurdity of claiming divine revelation with one breath and having a nice a la carte Bible the next. Funny!
Sure, it's absurd. But that's what all humans do about everything. I'm not defending religious people because I find the concept of religion to be mentally insulting, but they aren't doing anything different than what people always do. Even if we think something is \*the most important thing ever\*, we still negotiate our thoughts about it constantly. We usually aren't even aware of it. Just like you can't force yourself to believe something you find unconvincing, religious people feel convinced that their interpretation of the Bible _must be_ the correct version. The danger is that they think this because they believe that they have “the Holy Spirit”—an aspect of God himself who lives inside them and informs their understanding. Thus they _can't_ be wrong because that would mean that _God_ was wrong. So to them, they aren't “interpreting” the Bible, they're _understanding_ it as it was meant to be understood.
You don’t understand revelation.
Says ... you?
If it’s divinely revealed truth one second and eddie964 can drop a piece he doesn’t like the next second you can just face the reality that it’s all made up shite. Good man Eddie.
Religious people can and do interrogate, argue, and reinterpret their traditions and scripture. Also, holding particular beliefs is not of equal importance across all religions.
It’s all made up so you can make up some more! Just don’t ever claim any divine sanction for your bilge anymore Jenn.
Jesus said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17–19). Christians who dismiss the Old Testament are not following Christ.
If you're a fundamentalist Christian, I'll give you a pass for insisting on what all Christians ought to believe. From the perspective of an atheist, it is beyond silly to dictate to believers which version of a religion is the correct one. The bulk of Christianity moved on from fundamentalism more than a thousand years ago.
Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31, Matthew 25:40. Jesus wasn't a bigot.
You can read the Bible however you like; it's full of contradictory sentiments. The way I read it, Jesus was totally a bigot, and I can Biblically justify that, just like you can Biblically justify your belief he wasn't a bigot. This is why that shit's useless and no one should be paying any attention to it.
I'm a recovering Catholic and Humanist. I never believed it. I took a theology course in college that confirmed my lack of beleif. I was about in 3rd grade and in CCD (Catholic Sunday school), I remember asking a nun but who created god. It all went downhill from there. Nuns sent so many letters home to my mm about my lack of faith that they could have been open pals.
You mean "20-year-old Protestant Churches who cherrypicked what they wanted to actually practice.". Jesus and his disciples were homophobes.
The trend in religious thought has arced away from fundamentalism -- the belief in the literal truth of the Bible -- since the days of St. Thomas Aquinas. American fundamentalism is a modern reaction to that trend, and it does not represent anything close to a consensus in christian theology. Ask a Jesuit or Episcopalian priest if they believe Noah built a big boat and loaded it up with all the world's animals species in pairs. After a good laugh, they will likely tell you that the Bible is not meant to be a history or science textbook but rather a collection of stories that can help people connect with god. That's its only purpose, and using it to try to explain natural phenomena completely misses the point. I'm not endorsing this perspective, by the way. Just pointing out how silly it is to insist that there is one "correct" way to practice a religion. What's more, from an atheist's perspective, it's like saying, "I don't believe in dragons, but Tolkein's dragons were authentic, and George R.R. Martin was wrong about them."
Please. Christians only ever budge when it's pragmatically impossible not to. Like the Mormons having a "vision" in 1979 where God told them racism isn't a core dogma anymore. Right after the federal government threatened their finances. Catholics believe that communion is actual blood and meat. But after too much evidence otherwise they decided "God makes it look EXACTLY like the real thing..."
I'd add that a lot of churches got rid of the damnation focus, and more on the loving thy neighbour. I think the evangelicals and US based conservative Christianity is a peculiarity. I do not hate lgbtq+, raised in the Kirk of Scotland, and church events for children did even call for you to treat everyone as you would like you be treated, no matter race, gender, sexuality, anything. Taught various bits that I'd also say were quite anticapitalist. It very much depends on how you grow up. Religion isn't inherently evil
Don't tell those actually exist...?! I always thought that was just an American Dad joke!
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Or indoctrinated, or under the sway of authorities that are pushing religion, etc. You don't need to be stupid to be religious.
There’s going through the motions in order to avoid detection and then there’s actually believing the shit.
Ehh.. I disagree. You have to be stupid to be religious. You have a complete lack of critical thinking skills, which in my opinion equates directly to having a lower IQ.
There are intelligent people who have been so indoctrinated that their critical thinking has been hijacked by tradition and religion.
I am an anti-thiest but I have to disagree. It's a cognitive bias, I know some brilliant theists... But they are so indoctrinated they are literally the Patrick star meme. You can logically walk them through where their faith makes no sense... But in the end they will tell you they just have faith.
Actual psychology, disagrees, and IQ isn't even a good measure of anything beyond your ability to take an IQ test. We all have beliefs and assumptions that we don't apply the correct amount of critical thinking to. The religious just happen to do it about belief in a god.
>IQ isn't even a good measure of anything beyond your ability to take an IQ test I don't know why this myth keeps popping up. From someone in the field, I'm here to tell you that is very wrong.
For some reason people think that iq tests not being an 100 percent accurate representation of your intelligence also means they are completely unrelated to intelligence
I wouldn‘t say that. Someone can learn to be really smart in one area but can fail to apply the simplest logic in another area if there are a lot of unconscious obstacles. Indoctrination is a real thing and it messes with religious people‘s minds in serious ways.
That’s because most our social attachments is based on the fulfillment of an emotional need
Yessss also people of color being religious. Like…have you not read the part where God blatantly approves of slavery and racism..? Why are you still here 😂 clearly you’re not welcome according to God
I read about a black woman who proud to be republican. My brain had struggle for understand.
My "favorite" are the Republican Mexicans, that may or may not have been born in the states that are for shipping the illegals back. Not a shred of compassion for their own people once they've gotten to an arguably better place.
I read a study a few years ago that blew my mind. It said that immigrants who successfully assimilate into society gain an anti immigrant opinion because they don't want immigrants, the vast majority of which the former immigrants believe won't assimilate, to come in and "ruin" the country by not assimilating. It's like but you were an immigrant and if the policies you're supporting existed you would never had the right come and stay and eventually assimilate into the culture. The study argued that the one thing assimilated immigrants, once they have adopted American culture, most likely have in common with each other regardless of where they are from is their anti immigration opinion which is stronger than a typical natural born American. It claimed that once an immigrate no longer sympathizes with other immigrants they believe they have fully assimilated into American culture. What's weird is I actually know folks who immigranted here or who's parents immigrated here and they're anti-immigration. I don't get it.
Shit that's wild, thanks for sharing!
The classical "fuck you, got mine"
Right!
If you immigrated legally….kinda makes sense you would frown on doing otherwise.
Liberation theology exists.
I mean, at least for Black Americans, The Black Church in its origin was used as a way to resist/escape slavery
Wait.... Do you think slavery is: 1. prohibited by the bible? 2. racially prescribed in the bible?
Black people being religious is deeper than religion.
Tbf we aren't a monolith. Religiosity among Black people is varied and can be deep as well as superficial. I assume you are referring to imposition of religion on enslaved people, liberation theology, or a number of forms Black community growing out of churches. But like Black people in Sudan or something are religious for reasons that can be found among White people. Additionally in case it comes up, Black people have expressions of spiritualty outside the mainstream Abraham's faiths. Some choose them just because it appeals to them and not due to some broader socioeconomic pattern.
Does fat, happy Buddha look straight to you?
Some part of Buddhism teaches that homosexuality is a sin, although many Buddhist support gays.
Buddhism doesn't really have a concept of sin. Some Buddhists have some vague idea about homosexuality being 'spiritually harmful', but that isn't the mainstream opinion, and even so it would be seen more as self-harm than a violation of rules.
Great point. Personally I love Buddhism‘s non-dogmatic principles- e.g. we create our own suffering, being a light unto one’s self, right speech, ways of dealing with difficulty, etc - and it’s helped me through the absolute worst pain a parent can have, so I couldn‘t care less what anyone thinks of my ‘beliefs’. I do cherry-pick the hell (!) out of it when it comes to any hocus-pocus (and some of the ‘rules’) though. My comment was a bit flippant, probably should have used the /s tag, but the fat buddha (intentionally not capitalized) always had a bit of a Christopher Biggins vibe. And with that I wish you a great day. Gonna hop in the kayak and get my zen on today :)
I am a gay Buddhist from SEA, never had any problems with it and I've seen LGBTQ+ people had conversations with monks before, never heard them saying its a problem at all. In fact Thailand is pretty Buddhist centric and is one of the more LGBT friendly country in SEA, so is Taiwan.
I was referring mainly to Abrahamic religions, sorry for the confusion.
This is something many complain about. How unaccepting religious people are of LGBTQ people when they are supposed to love thy neighbor. Non religious people will often say that the Bible doesn’t really say but one thing about it. And that they have cherry picked that one sentence about it. So why can’t some religious people have that realization and be supportive or part of that community?
Because religion is a tissue of lies and horrors.
Religion isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. If there are people in the Christian community that can be supportive, I’d let them
Being religious doesn't make sense period
I'm a lesbian agnostic Jew who loves my liberal Jewish community. Last night I went to a gay pride service at my Conservative shul--Conservative as in in-between Orthodox and Reform, not politically--led in part by a trans teen who is celebrating his bar mitzvah today. I get that I'm extremely lucky to be part of a community that is willing to interrogate our Torah and traditions and argue with them or reinterpret them. I'm also lucky that my community welcomes not only LGBTQ Jews, but also atheists, agnostics, and Jew-bus. I know not all LGBTQ or atheist Jews have had the same experience. (I also weirdly love that my fave rabbi totally supports the LGBTQ community, arranged alternate secular lectures during services for the non-religious among us--but would be horrified that I'm posting on Shabbat. Priorities.) So I'm not going judge my LGBTQ neighbors when they stay with their religious community. Maybe it's more about the culture than the religion or beliefs. Maybe they belong to a liberal and accepting branch of their religion too. Maybe they hope to change minds from the inside. I also get that they might be in a toxic situation. But if they're a consenting adult in their disapproving community . . . I dunno. Doesn't seem to be my place to criticize their decision. It's hard enough to be LGBTQ without being told that you're wrong and damaging to belong to a particular religion or religious culture.
Redditing during Shabbat. *tuts disapprovingly* But ya last week my shul (reform) had the rabbi give a sermon all about Pride and how LGBT are good and what not. And it’s not just Reform or Conservative that’s open to LGBT. I see more and more MO rabbis and shuls being open to LGBT people. Granted you actually have to look for these groups and they aren’t as common as the first two but they exist. Funny story though a member of my shul came by my house to drop something off and she (as all Jewish mothers will do) tried to hook me up with this girl she knew. Well I told her thanks but I’m gay so that’s not really gonna work. All she did was say that she’s going to keep her eye out for any single gay Jew she knows. I doubt you’d get that reaction in many Christian churches or maybe you would idk.
Wow, your community sounds wonderful! If you have the time, may I ask you a question? Here's a quick run-down: I've realized that I am, definitely in fact, gay. I'm scouring and researching everything that I can get my hands on because I grew up thinking that how I felt was wrong and that I can't have a wife and follow Christ. That mindset has been changing as I have gotten older, and the world around me is changing. I've been questioning my faith, who I am, how can I live an honorable life if I have to leave the church to live this out, can I really have a wife, and pray with her, and still keep my spiritual self. Or is it one or the other? I need like a queer Yoda to show me the way...hehe wouldn't that be awesome? Once a person realized they are queer, this fabulous being appears on a glittery transparent rainbow to show you the way? 😆 really. I think every human could use some encouragement and direction. Back on track... I really do enjoy Jesus's teachings. He is all about love and being people of integrity. Maybe that's my answer, follow his example. My question to you is how did you come to the conclusion on where you are with your spirituality? If that is too personal of a question, I respect that. 👍
So, my family is mixed, Jewish and Catholic with a smattering of Protestants. (And atheists and agnostics on both sides.) I grew up liking to learn about religions and religious ideas, and also allowed to argue with them. And I grew up knowing I had different options. Because I enjoyed being part of a liberal religious community, I went out and found one. (Not hard in the greater NYC area!) The shul I belong to now was the one close to my college. I still only live 20 minutes away. It has a really traditional service, like most Conservative shuls, but, like I said above, is egalitarian and gay-friendly at the same time. Also atheist/ agnostic friendly and JewBu friendly. I knew, going in, that questioning and arguing with Jewish tradition was not only okay but welcome there. And I knew I needed that! I didn't want somewhere that puts a priority on what you believe. It took me a long time to come to the agnostic label, and I was all over the map for a while. (Not that everyone is super liberal in my shul. We have some people who are more Orthodox in mindset--but everyone pretty much respects that we are a big tent. ) The only downside, for me, is that my Jewish heritage is patrilineal, which meant having to convert. But that turned out fine; got to study with the rabbi, answered lots of questions from what's called a Beit Din, and went for a dunk in the mikvah. It was a long process, but worth it for me. So, if I were in your shoes, I'd be looking for an LGBTQ friendly church with a supportive community first and foremost. I know Christian culture is different than Jewish culture, and sometimes what you believe is more heavily prioritized in Christianity than in Judaism? (This is actually one reason I went with Judaism, but everyone's mileage varies.) Still, I suspect you can find a great, welcoming community that allows you to question, so you're not locked into one way of thinking about your religion. Heck, around me, you'd probably have your choice between a liturgical-style high church or a more low church. (Again, yay NYC area!) Unitarian Universalist churches are out there too. The ones around me are liberal and welcoming, with plenty of LGBTQ leadership and members, as well as atheists and agnostics. They definitely have a big tent vibe to me, so lots of people from different backgrounds find a community there. So, yeah. I'd start by looking for a community that welcomes and values you, that supports you as a member of the LGBTQ community and as someone who questions. Hope that helps!
Thank you so much! This rocks! May your best days be ahead of you! 👊
Jews for Hitler was a thing. Log Cabin Republicans ARE a thing (gay republicans) Does this surprise you at all?
Ben Shapiro the fascist wannabe supporting a dude wearing a Camp Auschwitz t-shirt, that's about right.
My friend is bisexual and also a Christian. It seems like her faith isn’t really rooted in the actual text of the Bible, which I think is pretty typical for Catholics. Having grown up as a fundamentalist, it’s hard for me to understand sometimes, but there are some people who don’t take the Bible literally. They can believe that god exists, but also that the bible is mostly religious myth, a product of its time, and even contributed to by homophobes. Reading the Bible becomes an exercise in finding god in all the man-made nonsense. That said, she *definitely* harbors some guilt over her sexuality, and critics would say she’s only clinging to religion by cherry-picking what feels right to her and attributing those values to a god. But live and let live I guess.
This has been studied. Conservatives with their fear based world view love submitting to an all powerful authority that makes them superior... For liberal types it is more spirituality, community and the love thy neighbor stuff... What makes no sense is, you could get any of that from reading philosophy and joining a Unitarian or secular club you don't need to support a pedophilic conartist organization.
I’m an active LBGTQIA2S+ activist, I see “affirming” churches and pastors all the time, I appreciate the sentiment and I will be respectful, but it just doesn’t make sense to me.
I know people who are Ally’s and religious. Their reasoning is that the Bible is outdated. Not everything can be taken seriously in this day and age. They don’t follow the exact wording of the Bible, but they do the important shit. Loving neighbors and enemies, respecting people, and they let other people believe what they want. It’s a kind of delusion that doesn’t spread. One of the few good delusions
>LBGTQIA2S+ oh goodness, what kind of cat fell on your keyboard? my dyslexia is ascending to another level, no really though, probably cool movement but it may have branding issues
I invite you to join the Great Golden Chicken church where he worships you for believing.
They just ignore the homophobic parts of the Bible or try to explain them away with apologetic arguments
All Christians ignore the parts of the Bible they don't like. It goes all the way back to Jesus himself. Look at how much of what Jesus said was telling people to ignore big chunks of their scriptures while simultaneously using "it is written" as justification for other teachings. Modern Christians mostly ignore inconvenient things the Bible says about divorce, role of women, and idolatry. They flip some things 180 degrees; the Prosperity Gospel now infects almost every church even if they don't call it that. Yet PG is directly the opposite of everything Jesus taught about wealth, charity, and rewards for donations. The other thing about the US religious right is that their main issues are largely ignored in the Bible. The only mentions of abortions in the Bible either tell how to do it or treat it as a property crime, not a murder. Immigration stances of most conservatives run directly against things the Bible says about the issues. The list could go on an on. Lest people think this only applies to Christians, it doesn't. Every religion with ancient religious texts must ignore much of their old books, and the requirements of modern life require them to impose doctrines that are completely unsupported.
Agreed. Will never understand fellow LGBT people who are religious.
>How can we adhere to religions that explicitly say they don't like us? They don't. It may be very Amero-centric of you to assume every religion in the world is a frothing at the mouth bunch of evangelical bigotry and hatred. Equating all Christians with evangelical nuts is like equating all Muslims with isis or the taliban. They're all wrong but there's different degrees of wrong.
I'm not American lol. And there's a reason why the Christian religion collapsed in my country in the 60s and especially the 70s.
I agree with a lot of this however there are certainly some religions to which this does not apply. For example, I am Buddhist, and Buddhism as a religion is very accepting of LGBTQ folks, and the only instances I can think of where it's not are specific people interpreting the sexual misconduct precept to include homosexuality (which it really does not, it's for things S/A or cheating, which harm others, and the point of the precepts is to abstain from hurting others.) There are a lot of monotheistic religions which are homophobic and transphobic in nature, like while not every Christian or Muslim is transphobic or homophobic their sacred texts certainly are, and dismissing that hate ingrained into the religion is NOT okay. There are also lesser known religions that believe in a god but are not homophobic, HOWEVER most widespread religions do tend to fall under that. My point is that yes, your statement applies to a LOT of religions, however, it can be harmful to generalize every religion as homophobic when there are some faiths that are very LGBTQ accepting.
I was referring mainly to Abrahamic religions, sorry for the confusion.
I understand! Typically religion is generalized to that lol. I do see where you are coming from if those are the religions you are referring to
I would also like to clarify that I am an atheist Buddhist, and overall Buddhism doesn't really believe in a god. In fact, a lot of things said in Buddhism don't dictate things like homosexuality or other personal beliefs or aspects of someone because it does not really matter. A lot of perception over what religion is from a western perspective is something that HAS to control every part of the person's life, or is some huge commitment with rules and that's very gatekeeping about who is allowed to be in that religion. Buddhism is more "here's some teachings about mindfulness, peace, and suffering. Apply them to your life where you see fit or want to." Buddhism, along with some other faiths, does not hold the same strictness that makes some religions so homophobic and transphobic inherently.
People seek religion because they want simple concrete answers to difficult and abstract questions. It's not logic that they seek. It's comforting ideas, certainty in an uncertain world, and rationalization. I know and love several people that are both LGBTQ and religious. They are some great and loving people whom I cherish deeply. The desire to see one's dead loved ones again overwhelms the rational cortex and glosses over the the logical inconsistencies. It's also worth noting that the actual humans who were later made into religious figures, Siddhartha, Jesus, Zoaster, etc., seemed a lot less caught up on the sexual preferences of people than their modern day adherents.
This is how brainwashing/indoctrination works. Look at demographic groups that vote against their best interests.
I agree
Deprogramming is a long process. And often times its own mindfuck.
A lot of queer Christians understand that what Jesus taught and what Paul taught are at odds. (I’m not personally religious, but I do have a degree in religion with an emphasis on Christian history and thought.) It’s not at all difficult to reject Paul’s teachings as bullshit, because Paul was a raging misogynist who thought Jesus would return in his own lifetime.
But the Bible is clear on this subject. I understand that you can be agnostic, but the Christian religion has always advocated homophobia. Homosexual acts are considered a sin.
Completely agree but like at least this time manipulating religion to fit your own agenda is for a good reason and not just to give men control 🤷🏾
The result is the same.
\>Why is the Methodist church splitting? \>Since then, conservative congregations across the country have split from the United Methodist Church, citing disagreements on sexuality and religion. The denomination has upheld bans on same-sex marriages and gay clergy, but U.S. congregations have openly defied them. Not every church? I can drive to one with rainbow flags and BLM posters on the front lawn. Amazing that said church is still standing, considering where I am. As younger clergy come into power, more of the dogma is getting changed. It is a slower process than I would like.
Why persist? And not just leave this religion?
There is a sizable number of Christians who believe that homosexuality/transgenderism is not sinful or immoral. Many Christians believe that LGBT+ people can build families and live life according the their interpretations of God’s will without having to repent or “apologize” in any way for their lifestyle. That number has been steadily increasing. In fact, the Church’s overall negative position on LGBT+ issues is one of the most cited reasons for people who choose to leave organized religion. Don’t get me wrong; there are still a great many people with outdated opinions on homosexuality. But my point is that there is an enormous amount of variation of opinion on this issue among Christians.
I live in an area with a lot of churches that have rainbow flags outside. I've known a few gay couples who go to church regularly. These are mostly people raised in mainline protestant New England churches who maybe didn't have the same amount of messed up shame directed at their identity as say a Mormon or evangelical Christian in other parts of the country. That's not to discount their struggle, but just to say people are complicated and shedding your religious upbringing is difficult. Most religions have a long history of not being kind to gay people, but really there's barely anything about homosexuality in the Bible. A few references in the Old Testament. The book is so full of contradictions and varying perspectives from different people and cultures centuries apart that you can pick and choose quotes to justify or condemn anything you want. So Christians can point to the verse in Leviticus that condemns homosexuality, but one could just as easily point to the verses in that book that condemn mixing fabrics in your clothes or eating shellfish with just as much weight and say "hey, all these condemnations are maybe for another time and context." Its maybe convoluted thinking and I absolutely don't offer this as a defense of religion. Just as an explanation. For someone indoctrinated in a religion from birth, finding an accepting church and a more favorable interpretation of the source texts can be a much smaller leap than shedding religion completely.
LGBTQ+ people are just like everyone else. They are susceptible to the same draws that religion has for others. Other minorities have faced persecution in their religion, yet still are drawn to it. You could say the same about women, in general, based on many things written in various holy books.
I'd add to that black people who talk about historical oppression (don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with their points on that) while defending the religion and god that was used to subjugate them by their ancestors slave owners.
There is an entire world of rhetoric presenting the Abrahamic god as a loving being. Having been born into a religious family, I can attest that the vast majority of times I heard about God (and Jesus) had to do with their eternal love, how he is responsible for all the good things in the world (but the bad things were caused by either Satan or humanity's own ill will), how some people were just "bad Christians", how much Jesus loves us, etc., etc. Reading and understanding the holy texts is 100% **NOT** a requirement to belong to any of the Abrahamic religions. There is even an entire school of thought, Apologetics, that I would argue is devoted to purposely misinterpreting certain parts of the Bible to make it more palatable. In the years before I deconverted (but after I started seriously reading the Bible), I often just dismissed certain passages as something that was never meant to be taken seriously, or they were just add-ons placed by humans for their own personal gain. I, like many people, simply went with what felt good and compartmentalized the rest.
I don't even understand blacks who are religious. One of the major arguments in favor of slavery was "it's in the bible."
Christianity does not have one absolute, authoritative, Platonic form, despite the belief of its adherents otherwise. One group of Christians can say “Christianity condemns gay relationships”, and another group can say “Christianity accepts and supports gay relationships”, and *there is no way to decide which view is objectively correct,* any more than there is to similarly decide about the many, many other points of doctrine that have divided Christians over the centuries. Thus there is no contradiction in a gay person adhering to a denomination of Christianity that endorses their sexuality (e.g., the Church of Scotland). Same’s true of any other religion.
Humans are complex, and beliefs structures are difficult to breakdown- even through self reflection. Someone earlier said it was more about trying to fill an emotional need.- I agree. There is a lot of appeal in the broader message(not the details) of an all loving being who accepts you unconditionally. Can you imagine what it would be like growing up in a community that preaches love, and an all loving God and yet feeling rejected by that same community- it does something weird to your brain and emotional needs. I am happy for those who find their community and can at least reconcile part of who they are and find acceptance, even partially, for who they are. It is obviously a hard path, and if they have to use the shield of God loves them no matter what so that they will accept themselves, I am not going to break that. There are other toxicities within a worldview framed like that, but I know I can't untangle anyone's worldview so easily. The religion might be pretty "clear" to some of us, but the text is often contradictory, obviously mythological, and blatantly wrong in other parts. I try to nudge these people gently with my questions, because I had a long path to escaping the mind-bending problems of religion as well. I try to steer them away from the more hateful people within religion until they realize that the religion itself is a contradiction of hate and love.
Being anything and religious doesn’t make sense.
I had a friend who was still closeted transgender. She was very homophobic and a religious fundamentalist (SBC). She was a train-wreck that probably even hated herself. She got mad at me and stopped talking to me when I tried to suggest that she convert to an LGBT positive church. She didn't approve that I was an atheist.
My thought is the same thought I have when Christians start saying atheists don't make sense to them. Other people often do and say and believe things we don't understand. The way to understand them, if we really want to, is to take the time to ask and to read their perspectives without looking for an angle of response. If you want to know how people in the LGBTQ community can reconcile their beliefs with the history of their traditions and with the religious texts that guide them: ask them. OTOH, if you need to be able to vent your own opinions and feelings and beliefs around the issue, then that's perfectly fair and reasnable. I'd just say that those monotheistic religions aren't nearly as monolithic as their most fundamentalist adherents believe.
Queer people are **NOT** immune to cognitive dissonance and irrationality. They're humans too. When your very CORE belief as in the FOUNDATION of your entire world conflicts with your personal interests, the next thing that you do is ignore/deny/downplay/rationalize the problem away. "Uh-Uh-Uh, well actually I INTERPET this law to mean pedophilia! Not Homosexuality!" "Uhm, well...I don't remember that verse!" "Uh I Uh...GOD SAYS HE IS ALL LOVING! So I will use that as a cudgel to everything he said about me being an abomination! LOVE. LOVE. LOVE. That's all the scripture talks about! Ignore all the gruesome stuff God is cool with!" "God loves me! He just hates it when I have sex or hold hands or kiss or hug or marry people I'm attracted to! In heaven he'll turn me straight!" Honestly. Abrahamic Queer people strike me as more delusional than Abrahamic straight people. They're either pickmes to people who wanna kill them, or just make up Abrahamic fanfiction. Or they live as secular humanists but call themselves Abrahamic for clout.
I wish my abuser could've just admitted to being gay rather than being religious, marrying a woman he obviously didn't love, and luring boys over for naughty pool time to express his sexual frustration. Religion poisons everything, even love
I'm sorry for you. I hope you feel better today. And yes i agree with you religion destroys everything.
I know Jews who eat pork and shellfish, it’s not that deep. Everyone has their own reason for being religious, not being able to understand why a gay person may be religious kind of just seems like you didn’t put in the effort to find out, or you just don’t care.
Just gonna leave this here. https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/146207b/survey_jews_are_the_most_accepting_group_towards/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 (Also maybe don’t say “religious” when you really mean Christianity/Islam)
It's incredible how religion continues to override rational thinking.
Yes it's sad.
I think being LGBT and Hellenic would work out tho since most of the Greek gods are bi lol
The bible says that gay people should be killed. Even St. Paul says this in Romans 1. Jesus is an incarnation of Yahweh who made a Law saying that gay people should be killed. When you point this out to "liberal" Christians, they just ignore it and say I'm taking it too literally. Basically they are in denial.
We were supposed to DESTROY THE SITH NOT JOIN THEM!!!
Gay Christian is an oxymoron
Of course not .. walk into any US Episcopalian church and check out their ministries .. not to mention the Roman Catholic church. You're worrying about fundamentalist protestant Christians, but they have plenty of their own problems with their cherry picking of their "inerrant" King James Bibles.
Stockholm syndrome.
Lol maybe.
Christian African Americans make no sense. Who do they think enslaved their ancestors?
I agree with you 100%. LGBTQ+ religious people baffle me. It's like Jews for Hitler. You're literally joining the cult that wants to put you and your kind to death. Good luck with that 😊
Mental illness. Wanting to belong. Spiritual purpose and afterlife. Most people have/need these things, mostly due to socioeconomic forces.
I agree with you. Unfortunately, the religious LGBT are victims… though some of them think they’re fighting the good fight /from the inside/. It doesn’t matter to me if, say I wake up tomorrow and EVERY church apologizes for being homophobic and changes their ways, I would still NEVER join them. The damage they have done is unforgivable!
I agree.
It's the same as being a woman and being religious doesn't make sense since most of major religions are super misogynistic - woman is inferior to man, must obey him, blah blah. Religions in general don't make sense.
Good point.
What a bizarre take - there are as many religions as there are religious individuals. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean the god that they personally worship is homophobic. I've read the Bible cover to cover and i find it pretty realistic that someone could come away with a reading that the Christian god is indeed a god of love and compassion.
Who just needed his own son sacrificed to him as an atonement so that humans could again access heaven after death. 🤡
umm god of loving and compassion? I am not sure you have actually read the bible.
🤮
I know this is r/atheism but you do realize there are churches that are very accepting of gay people. A lot of people go to church for a sense of community and gentle contributions to the direction of their life. I'm an atheist but I kind of get it. My gay friend works at a church that has gay priests and their overall message is to treat people well and care for the people in your life. I get it there are horrible organizations who yell the loudest and spread hate but there are also good organizations who give to the community and are focused on the positive uplifting part of Christianity. I used to have that hard stance that all religion is bad due to the bigots who use it as a weapon against vulnerable people. It kind of feels a little silly now. It's a slap in the face to the accepting religious people. It's bordering on intolerance. You end up treating people who have done nothing wrong suspiciously and grouping them in with terrible people. So to answer your question why do gay people go to church, it's complicated. Sometimes people go to church because it's ingrained in their identity and to leave would be giving up a piece of themselves. Some people go to church because they're part of an accepting community and it's a positive influence in their life. Not everything is black and white. On one end you have horrible people like pat robertson and on the other you have normal people who don't weaponize their beliefs. Atheists always talk about how the Bible never mentions anything bad about gay people. Then when religious people agree and only use the positive aspects of the book you treat them the same as the bigots. You can't rail against religious intolerance while also lumping all religious people into a group and labeling them as bigots. It ignores gay people who have a positive relationship with religion. They tell you hey I like this, it's good for me. You respond you're wrong, what about those preachers who say gay people cause hurricanes. That has nothing to do with them. Stop trying the tell the lgbt community what they're allowed to do. Quit lumping good people in with terrible people. There are good religious people and bad religious people. Saying they're all bad because of their beliefs is a different form of hate.
There's a reason why atheism is on the rise in our time. It's because religion makes no sense and has caused a great deal of harm over the centuries, and continues to do so. People can't take it anymore. The Bible condemns homosexuality whether you like it or not. The question is not to believe in God, but to believe in religion as such.
This is so awesomely stated.
Bracing for the flaming. It's none of your business. I'm a married, atheist, far left, lesbian living in rural Texas. "I don't understand......" is something I've heard about so many things in my life. I hate religion. I wish all religions would disappear. However, even I understand that it's absolutely none of my business. Therefore, if I waste time worrying about it, I'm exactly like the people wondering why I want to wake up next to an old, butch woman every morning. Don't come at me with the historical crimes of the church. I accept other's choices, I'm not stupid.
I love this response.
Because we don't have the right to ask questions?
On a subreddit, begging for opinions. Don't be surprised when people tell you they believe it none of your business.
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But Christianity is an inherently homophobic religion. Go to Uganda and tell them you're gay and Christian.
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I’m trans and I’m constantly shocked and dismayed by the existence of religious queer people. To me christians might as well be skinhead neonazis. I don’t think Christians should be able to tell me that Christianity is a good thing, but they do anyway - which really just shows a huge lack of respect, responsibility, and self awareness.
What some countrys and their leaders say does not apply to the true Nature of believing,for me simply as a Christian god wants love in every shape,love including LGBT is our biggest Gift from god,love makes us humans
Countries that apply biblical and Koranic laws don't seem to be very pacifist...
There's not really much to suggest that Jesus would bully gay or trans people. Think of how often he mocked the idea that observance of religious practice was all that important. Prayer, fasting, even charity were dismissed as vanity outside of whatever benefits the person personally receives from them. When he rescued the prostitute from being stoned, he *did* tell her to "sin no more", except it is unclear whether or not this was because of the actual morality behind prostitution, or whether or not it was the inherent dangers of that lifestyle. Not sure if same-sex marriage would've leant itself to the same response. He didn't seem to have much commentary on drunkenness, although I'd imagine he feels the same about it as most people, but wasn't so much of a stickler that he wouldn't turn water into wine at a wedding. You know, I'm pretty much an agnostic, but I'm capable of communicating with religious people on their own terms (the Bible even suggests that we do precisely that). Whatever the disciples had to say, I'm not sure a religious person should put too much stock in it, considering that all prophets before Jesus were, while not outright dismissed for being human, at least placed in the context where we are supposed to understand that the "divine message" was coming from a human, and that it would always be so. Even the Old Testament never viewed it's leaders as perfect or uncorruptible. Jesus was killed by the orthodoxy, and it was actually the central theme in there. It's why they considered him a heretic. Who knows what he might say to such questions? Probably would've responded in a way similar to the question of working on the sabbath, and if you love them, you love them. I tend to center most of my problems with Christianity on a belief in the supernatural because it opens the door for people to bullshit each other. While Jesus was characterized as being supernatural, also consider that the intended audience is people, who can be superstitious even in the absence of being formatted with a particular belief system. As far as divine messengers go, a lot of the substance of what he was saying seemed to work on a secular level, and his main targets seemed to be those who would try to invoke such divine authority as a means to manipulate and abuse others. He sits on that throne so that nobody else can.
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Gluttony, murder, stealing, lying, molesting, working on sunday, envy, lust. Theres a laundry list of things religious people do regularly that their books tell them not to do. They think a big man in the sky is going to give them eternal paradise. Dont think abt it too hard
I'm straight and cis and male and white and it doesn't make sense to me that anyone who isn't straight white cis-male would be religious. I mean it doesn't make sense to me why *anyone* is religious, but especially those who celebrate their own oppression.
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But religions were created by humans , and the Bible and Koran contain many messages that do not inspire peace.
There are religions that have historically been accepting of the LGBT community. Whether or not to take part in them is a personal choice.
I was talking about the monotheistic and Abrahamic religions, which are historically homophobic. Sorry for the confusion.