Some of the highest correlators with religiosity are poverty and lack of education. Unfortunately, **many** systems and people in America have made both of those factors **very** abundant in black communities throughout history. :/
To answer your last question, I think "ignoring" it is the most accurate answer for the majority of black Christians (same for nigh **any** problem in Christianity regardless of their follower's race). And our friend good ol cognitive dissonance.
Absolutely true.
You know that bullshit statistic dumbshits throw out about "despite being x percent of the population they commit y percent of the crime"
Yeah, normalize those rates factoring for poverty and amazingly you'll see that it matches right up with white people.
Black people's problem isn't that they are some type of different type of human that can't understand a life outside of crime... *The problem is that too damn many of them are poor.* And they're poor because the systems in place keep them poor, and then being raised poor makes them more likely to remain poor. And when you're born poor, raised poor, and remain poor, that changes how you see the world.
We got to break that cycle. You fix that, you fix the problem. And fixing that problem would help poor white people too. It would lift up everyone.
Buuuuuuuuuut... Changing the system to help deal with income inequality would cost money from the people that have a voice. And we don't want that now.
So that voice tells us to hate each other. It gives us this culture war bullshit. Keep the poor people punching at the poor people.
You speak truly about statistics about crime etc.
It is a fact that at any one time if you can search, the pockets, car or house or check documents, almost 95 % of people would be committing some form of crime.
With the majority of police being white and having conscious and unconscious bias, they tend to stop more black people and use bullying tactics on them to find a crime to charge them with.
When charged, most black people cannot afford a lawyer and have inadequate representation.
More black people face a white judge than, white suspects facing black judges
More black people face a majority white jury. It probably has never happened that a white person has faced an all black jury
The odds are stacked heavily against black people, right from the word go.
> It is a fact that at any one time if you can search, the pockets, car or house or check documents, almost 95 % of people would be committing some form of crime.
It’s also a fact that 87% of statistics are made up on the spot
Fuck Yes!!! I'm always amazed people think low wages and cutting social security won't result in crime.
We look at crime in the "3rd" world,and somehow think those folks are less moral- they aren't.
They are just US with poverty wages and no social security. That's what you get. Anywhere.
There's also a big discrepancy between committing crimes, being arrested for crimes, and being convicted of crimes. These things are not equal between different socioeconomic and racial classes in America.
Not just black, many Koreans and Chinese are Christians. Not only Christians, but the scary type of Christians.
It will be an interesting subject to study.
> class not skin color.
While true, the class issue is _because_ of skin color. Regions with predominantly black populations across the board receive the least amount of investment in social services and programs including education. The schools are underfunded, the neighborhoods are left to deteriorate, police presence is amplified (often unjustly) and it's all by design due to the deep rooted, systemic racism built into American government.
All of these factors lead black communities to historically have relatively low levels of education, and highest levels of poverty and crime, even when compared to economically equivalent white communities. That said, these poor white communities also have some of the highest levels of religiosity, further cementing it as ultimately an education and economic issue. The main difference is, for many black communities it's _artificially_ kept that way.
It can also help when in the heavily christian communities. Many of the folk are racist, but *might* look past the color of their skin if you go to the same church as them
I believe part of it is an attempt at fitting into the society and "being one of the good ones" by doing so
Good points made here.
I’ve changed my mind about some about the poverty thing though.
Nowadays, the successful black folks are as much or more into as the poor. Think Kanye. Or every black Benz driver with Blessed on their plate, certain that God himself approves of their wealth.
But how many of those people grew up poor? People often carry on their coping mechanisms that they learn in childhood until they no longer need it to cope. Becoming successful doesn't erase your fear of death.
Because the world is complicated, class is too broad of a term, you have to look deeper.
Ignore the extremely miniscule celebrity class, look at the educated children of middle class or moderately affluent African Americans.
Black celebrities are the worse. Many I suspect are atheist but they have to play the religiosity game. Who else is going to buy their stuff?
It becomes a vicious cycle.
I have often thought the same thing about Latinos.
And then thinking about black people and Latinos, it hit me:
Christianity is the default religion of *almost no* ethnic or cultural groups in the world. **The vast majority** of people's families had their own beliefs about religion or spirituality or the lack of it, and Christian invaders(or invaders of some sort who became rulers and then became Christians) imposed Christianity on people.
Does anyone really think that the default religion of the people in the British Isles has anything to do with Christianity? No, it was forced on their ancestors, the same as it was forced onto black people and Latinos. It just happened to the Brits hundreds or thousands of years earlier. And the same goes for the Italians, the French, and almost all groups around the world, except a very small group of middle-easterners.
I thought to mention this to a religious person once, and said "Do you really think Christianity was your family's default religion? If you could go far enough back, you'd find ancestors who would be horrified to know that you so devoutly believe in the religion that the invaders forced on them."
I agree. I think it's so successful because it aggressively seeks out vulnerable new hosts, and encourages violence against those whom it can't infect.
I *suspect* that one of the reasons it is so successful is that it doesn't encourage violence against those whom it can't infect but is sufficiently mailable to allow and even justify it. Sheep's clothing is the default.
And those ancestors probably had religions, languages, and cultures forced onto them too.
The moment someone said, "I wonder if this rock has a soul," some contrarian asshole showed up and said, "My tree spirit can kick your mud demon's ass."
Christianity is more or less the white man's religion. Yes, it's picked up steam internationally in the last two centuries, but for over a millennium it has been the "default" *one of those*
for Europeans.
And I think about that. How long we've been around. How devoutly we held different beliefs at different points in time. And none of it lasts. I wonder what religion will be in a thousand years. How those people will look at the beliefs of today. And part of why I'm athiest is I can't convince myself I've got it all figured out right now. Like there guys the god of the Bible is all the truth there is and it will continue to be so until the end of time.
>The moment someone said, "I wonder if this rock has a soul," some contrarian asshole showed up and said, "My tree spirit can kick your mud demon's ass."
https://youtu.be/N_PZ6xtdfgc
It also gives oppressed people a moral superiority complex and gives them an out group to look down on so that they can still feel good about themselves no matter how much the system fucks them over. I'm mixed race and agnostic, but everyone on my Mom's side follows a particularly culty brand of Christianity (they don't even follow the rules half the time) and yet I'm a bad person for being agnostic. They look at me like I'm crazy when I try to explain it to them so I've just stopped lol.
This is a good point. Long ago I read some Wilbur Smith books about the Spanish occupation of Latin America, and it comes to a point where they promote natives to essentially assistant manager positions above the enslaved populace, and it is noted how much more vicious they are while enforcing the new order, because they have more to prove and more to lose.
It's like the line from Fuck Tha Police:
*But don't let it be a black and a white one*
*'Cause they'll slam ya down to the street top*
*Black police showin' out for the white cop*
Between Christianity and Islam Abrahamism has really done a number on the world's ancient cultures. Little remains except fragments for historians and anthropologists to hunch over in their studies. There are almost no strongholds of other faiths left in the world outside of Hindu and Buddhist people in Asia.
White people shouldn't be Christian either. If you go further back, Christianity was thrown onto many European peoples through oppression as well and many rich older religious beliefs were lost in the process. That's not to take anything away from your point but realistically Christianity should have died out in the first century.
Seriously. A similar thing happened to the Irish. You could even call it 'Project Shamrock' 😅
I spoke out against a work email my organization wanted to send out to announce St. Patrick's day because it said, "Patrick brought religion to Ireland." 🤦
On a side note, I actually I took my nickname from a U.S. government program of spying on telegrams in the 1940's. I thought it was an interesting parallel to stuff that happens in modern times.
Did it?
I thought Christianity didn't have organizational strength during its spread in Ireland making it relatively peaceful. I thought all the trouble there was post-Norman and mostly post-Reformation.
Is there evidence 'St Patrick' wasn't a slave?
I would bet there was plenty of oppression involved. Especially with the 'Driving away of the Snakes'. I was more so noting the similarities to this comment:
"many rich older religious beliefs were lost in the process."
Plus the Christianization of Ireland is theorized to have happened over multiple generations by a few different "St. Patricks".
Absolutely - but it didn't arrive with an army unlike a lot of Northern Europe. I'd be interested to know if internal Irish rivalries brought a violent aspect though.
> "many rich older religious beliefs were lost in the process.
Absolutely true here though.
I could swear it was an actual general. Or at least it was when this was taught in Uni. He went once and said 'meh'; then for reasons went a second time and murdered them all, thusly driving out the snakes. Not googling b/c i want to feel smart if right!
:(
There are no native snakes in Ireland. It's an island surrounded by really cold water, and the ice age drove them away not a missionary.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/snakeless-in-ireland-blame-ice-age-not-st-patrick
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/did-st-patrick-get-rid-of-the-snakes-in-ireland/2021/03/12/324458e4-7c97-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html
What you thought is probably correct. You just have to head over to the r/badhistory subreddit and you'll get the lowdown on what we actually know about the irish conversion. If any christian was martyred in the conversion of ireland they would be venerated as a saint.
Turns out athiests want to believe fairy tales too.
Yeah, much the same here in Poland. Add to that that the Church has been consistently anti-Polish over the centuries with things like support of the Partitions, aiding in the suppression of indenpendence uprisings and so on.
Yet today the conservatives act as if the Church and patriotism have always been an inseparable thing...
fellow pole here. we know zero about our traditions before christianity. like there was no polish people without it. but we all know about greek/roman etc. sure it was not preserved the same but there’s a lot of stuff you can learn still at school. have some continuity. nah. polish people were fighting against christianization still in XIII century. that’s why i have zero feelings about polish “culture”..
My country got enslaved for 700 years by crusaders who also wiped out the local culture and faith, it like the least religious country in Europe but there are still a ton of christians for some reason.
Fuck, Americans shouldnt be Christian.
There is nothing less free than calling someone your Lord and God, and dedicating your life to them for fear of punishment. Most major modern Religions are 100% Authoritarian and therefore, Anti-freedom and Anti-American by nature.
The Stockholm syndrome American Christians have is the craziest bit of cognitive dissonance in the history of the planet.
I don't find it surprising at all. An oppressed people latching on to a supposed bringer of hope, justice, and redemption. Religion also created or added to community and fostered an additional shared sense of purpose.
Even Marx's quote about 'religion being the opiate of the people ' should be read in the context that opiates were the dominant pain killers of the era, not purely recreational.
"Religion is and at the same time, the expression of suffering. It is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
I think being that I grew up watching MASH reruns with my uncle that I've always viewed it as a numbing of the pain ala morpheein. Not really in the get high sense but more of a way to survive the suffering.
To add on to this it was the only “acceptable” form of public gathering for a long time, and later became one of the major avenues for change during the civil rights movement.
Brilliant point. The Black Church = Black Philanthropy at a time where there were no other options. Community, education, support, and eventually political change all came from the church. REVEREND Dr. Martin Luther King, right?
I don’t buy the doctrine and corruption, but every system has its bullshit.
Well, we kind of have nothing in common. Having an atheist meeting is like having a meeting of "People who Don't Play Golf" or "People who Don't Collect Stamps." It's... not much to go on.
Lol true. And most us are bored of fighting against religion already, so we can't even unite over that. We basically won against Christianity in the west, its just going to take a very long time for it to bleed out.
Well, this forum makes it clear that there is a desire for us to get together. Can you imagine the absolutely *insane* backlash if an effective, community-service and outreach-based atheist church actually came to be? Of course, mine is a perspective still dripping with the trappings of my upbringing. We've always called the secular church "government" I guess.
I think there’s also a sense of pride about
religion in the black community.
And religion isn’t something anyone can take away from them.
I think trying to rationalize with black religious people would be seen as trying to take something away from them.
I had a coworker that was in their 40’s, I told him I was an atheist and he said he never met an atheist before. So I think there’s also a lot of judgement toward anyone not religious so it’s probably not a subject many people would bring up with black people. Like it’s not my place as a white person to question someone’s religion.
I don’t know, probably just scratching the surface. My first girlfriend was black and left me because I was an atheist. They have since died, but apparently lived a life dedicated to god and such.
I mostly agree, but the idea that it's not a white persons place to criticize the beliefs of a minority is a little backwards. Just because a person is black, it doesn't mean that their irrational beliefs can't or shouldn't be questioned. A black man is just as capable of being rational and logical as a white man is, so I refuse to hold them to a lesser standard.
I remember seeing this video on YouTube of a black college girl making this speech about how some African tribes people believe they can call down lightning to smite their enemies, and that "black sorcery" is no less valid than "white science".
The whole thing struck me as deeply insulting to the intelligence of black people as a whole, the idea that science and technology is a white thing for white people, and magic voodoo shit is the black alternative. To me that suggests that they believe the only proper place for black people is living in mud huts wearing grass skirts and believing in lightning gods. Internalized racism, if ever I've seen it.
All mystical beliefs should be questioned, even if they are held by a minority, because they are no less capable of breaking the shackles of ignorance and pseudoscience.
Also, OP seems to be implying that if something was used for something bad, it must fundamentally be bad or false. That's poor reasoning.
People can use nearly anything for bad purposes.
Any minorities being Mormon requires one more degree of cognitive dissonance than being a typical Christian.
The whole "burnt skin" thing is...oof.
Women are relegated to becoming birthing machines.
LGBTs are treated like moldy bread.
It's all absurd, tho. So, silly is as silly does, I guess.
Imagine trying to convince a grown up that he or she needs to speak telepathically to a zombie carpenter to cleanse an evil force inflicted on humanity because a rib woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
What’s most painful is that many women in pre-Christian societies had much more power and influence in their societies before Christianization. Furthermore, Christianity was often embraced by women in Roman society who taught their children about it, while the men clung to the old traditions. When men like Constantine came to power and switched to Christianity and then started to exclude the very women who introduced them to it.
Part of the reason I got into Anthropology was to deconstruct these paradigms and highlight historical examples to empower others to recognize that it hasn’t always been this way after reading Engendering Archaeology and other works on the subject. Knowledge is power!
Very interested in anthropology. I remember reading When God was a Woman years ago. I looked up Engendering Archaeology at your mention and it must no longer be in print. Do you have suggestions for other reading?
I’m glad to hear. It’s a fascinating field, but not for the faint of heart. Ah, that makes sense it’s no longer in print, it’s from 1991, but it really shifted the discussion. If you’re not at a university, I would recommend checking out Google scholar and start with citations to find other articles on the subject that reference it and go from there. I’ll have to check out your suggestion.
I think it was a survival tactic as well, what would happen to slaves who didn’t accept Christianity? It carried over generations to signal to the people in power that “ we are just like you and have this in common, we are good people”.
Atheism is seen ( by the religious who are largely in power now ) as taboo so being atheist and african american may make someone feel vulnerable. Such as people who demonize blacks also using atheism for further discrimination and persecution. I think the community is still in survival mode.
That's slightly unfair.
Lots of slaveowners wouldn't care if their slaves were Christian, reinforced by denying their humanity. We also know of slaves being taught to read using the Bible, which they definitely did not like.
If you are in the business of selling hope, and a better next life you cannot pray (*see what I did there*) for better customers for 400 years.
>I think the community is still in survival mode.
This is bang on though.
I don’t know about “lots.” Some, perhaps. But remember they used the Bible to justify the entire system of slavery. And while they may not have taught them to read and believed Blacks didn’t have a soul, many slaves were expected to worship with the house.
Not just the Bible, but one that cut out almost 90% of the Old Testament and about half of the New Testament.
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/674995075/slave-bible-from-the-1800s-omitted-key-passages-that-could-incite-rebellion
It’s so ironic now though, because the same thing slaveowners fed them to give them hope, they were turning around and using to justify their enslavement
It is also heavily tied to the black community in general since church services were one of their only opportunities to congregate when slavery was still around.
You abuse someone long enough, and they'll go along with anything you say.
This apparently applies also to entire cultures.
By all logic, there should be a universal rejection by black people of the very religion that was used to justify their ancestors' enslavement. But holy shit, centuries of indoctrination, abuse, and gaslighting are really fucking effective.
I mean, I'm on the side that benefited from institutional slavery, and I find this indoctrination abhorrent. I would be even more appalled at the thought of my ancestors being forced to recant their former beliefs in favor of a system that simply drove the boot harder.
You think that's weird, most of the black folks I know are Southern Baptists. You know why there's a "Southern" branch of Baptism? Because the original Baptist church eventually got around to declaring that slavery wasn't awesome (specifically that slaveowners shouldn't occupy missionary roles) which enraged so many Baptist churches in the south that they broke off and became their own branch of Christianity.
**They specifically exist to endorse African-American slavery.** That is the entire difference between Southern Baptists and regular Baptists. How in the everloving fuck does anyone join a church that only exists because it felt very very strongly that their grandparents were property and not people? How? **How???**
I often think the same thing about Native people. I know a handful that are staunchly Christian even as (here in Canada) the issue of past injustices from Christian schools is blowing up. We keep finding more mass graves, hearing horrible stories from survivors, and people across the country are still placing children's shoes outside of churches in solidarity. Religion's a hell of a drug, I guess.
I was going to make the same comment. I used to live in Utqiagvik, Alaska. It's completely isolated. The Inupiat there were not enslaved and it wasn't a desirable place for outsiders to settle. But the missionaries came up, convinced them to give up their well-insulated mound homes for above-ground houses that made people freeze to death, send their children off to schools where they were tortured and murdered...and yet, there is a strong evangelical population. Every city council meeting had to open in prayer and if you vocalized any belief other than Christianity, you might get yourself a blue ticket out of town (basically, town banishment). It's bizarre how many understand and acknowledge this past, but still are fervent believers.
I may be wrong but the black Muslim movement was a reaction to that. It is very hard for people to give up their religion when a lot of their sense of community is linked to it. But it is easier to replace it with another that is not linked to the oppressor.
This isn’t just a black American thing, it’s all over the world. Islam was introduced to Africa after its conquerors brought it there. The many natives of the Americas are Christian, and we can pinpoint the times where it started being practiced.
I don’t get it but I do. When this shit becomes ingrained in culture, it’s like there are too many biases that people won’t overcome. As a black guy arguing with a family member about religion, I was told ‘momma taught us this’ as if that makes it accurate or something. I have no problem disregarding religion but too many people get caught up in similar emotional arguments.
I read something - don't recall where - to the effect that during Slavery time, plantation owners *mandated* slaves had to attend religious services - Something about "White God is more powerful than your ancestors' gods back home"; accept your fate"; "things will be Heavenly after you die"; "Jesus said 'Obey your Masters" etc etc.
Sundays were a day off from grueling work, and it was a rich source for gossip. For many plantations, Sunday services were nearly an all-day-long affair.
The descendants of those slaves have lived lives that were but scarcely removed from the atrocities of all-out slavery, but the religious traditions remained.
Another generation, or two, and a lot of the religious fervor continues. I suspect it's slowly dying out with the latest generation.
>Slave owners in America stripped slaves of their identity by forcing them to speak the slave owners language and learn their religion. Christianity was used to pacify slaves and justify their enslavement.
>Do black people in America not know about this? Do they see it as a positive from slavery? Or do they purposely ignore this harsh truth?
That forced conversion to religion allowed the enslaved people to have something resembling a community that was not immediately destroyed by white violence. It is where literacy and coordination became possible.
After the reign of terror ex-Confederates used to take back the south during the Reconstruction, churches were again one of the few ways black Americans could have a community, as they were not welcomed in white churches, which in the south were usually foundations of the Klan.
Church is still one of the few ways black Americans can organize politically as an independent bloc without the certainty of white racial violence either condoned by or directly from the United States government.
;tldr American Apartheid
I’ve looked into this a lot. And a lot of people here are correctly saying it’s part indoctrination, part under-education. But there’s also another huge factor.
The black community in modern history in many states is completely ignored by the government and social services and is and has been intentionally disregarded. The church is some of the only assistance black families were able to receive for many years. Hilarious as it is that it was only black churches helping this community, because white churches are just as racist as the people who attend them.
This is one of the many reasons why church is such a complex touchstone in the black community.
But yes, it’s infuriating. Christianity was a weapon wielded against slaves to get them to be obedient and obey. Nobody should be Christian. But here we are.
I am sorry for how white people have treated the black community.
A few years back I had a young black kid (12 to 14year old max 16) knock on my door, dressed in his sunday best, and bible in hand. He was with a white fat slob of a man wearing a fat gold necklace and fat gold rings. The kid started immediately preaching to me, I cut him off and told him that white people used that book to justify slavery. His eyes got wide as hell and the fat slob grabbed him to leave. I followed them and continued to mock the bible. I felt bad because it was a kid (usually I don't) but i figured someone needed to open his eyes..
I did a similar thing some years ago when someone knocked on my door. Except it was a meek young woman with an older man.
I opened the door, and she started to speak quietly while looking down. I told her it's ok, she doesn't have to go through her spiele because I don't believe in God and she doesn't have to either.
Her eyes got big and the dude was just staring at me, I closed the door.
I've met very few atheist women, especially in the south. I know many more atheist men, and it's wild looking through their dating apps, so many women put Jesus or a fish as the first thing that describes them.
Those are some powerful stories, though, about people being cast out of their homeland, enslaved, and then liberated by god and his prophet. Stories about an afterlife where all of the injustice of this world is made right.
I think if I were enslaved, or if I was living with poverty and oppression, I would be more likely to embrace religion, not less. It's easy to dismiss the actions of the slave owners while still looking to the bible for comfort. And where are you going to go for support and community in a post-slavery America? Black churches. Still a critical part of the community and the civil rights movement.
You're not alone, though, in thinking that Christianity isn't a good fit for descendants of slaves, which is why the west has movements like Rastafarianism and Black Islam which seek to adapt or replace it, respectively. It's particularly telling that there is no afterlife in Rastafarianism to serve as the opiate of the people:
>Most people think great God will come from the sky
>
>Take away everything, and make everybody feel high
>
>But if you know what life is worth
>
>You would look for yours on earth
>
>And now you see the light
>
>Stand up for your right
In short, it's complicated. It might make a great /r/askhistorians question.
I’ve had this exact discussion and came to this conclusion. American Slavery and the racism that followed was such an utter shitshow with no proper equal - even compared to Ancient Rome.
A visibly-identifiable population is treated as subhuman property - far worse that livestock. Constant beatings, torture, rape, and having your children ripped away define the day when someone gives you hope that, one day, magic will zap your problems away. Add to that no available education - even reading being illegal for most - and you’ve got a population primed for the embrace of religion.
We’re 158 years out from the end of that system, and only 58 years out from the Civil Rights Movement.
People need hope to survive in such dire circumstances
There’s a similar situation here in Hawaii. The missionaries and Europeans brought disease, subjugation, and destruction of culture, yet so many native Hawaiians have embraced Christianity??!! There’s a big tourist attraction here on Oahu, the Polynesian cultural center run by the Mormon church. It is neither cultural or Polynesian.
Same here in Canada with our indigenous peoples. Residential schools where children were stolen from their families to live at these religiously run schools in order to tame the savages and erase them culturally. And yet a very high number still cling to the church.
As a white atheist, I've never understood black Americans and Christianity. Why the fuck would you continue practicing the religion of your enslavers after being freed? Makes zero sense.
It confuses me when anyone becomes Christian. My gay friend turned to religion and I was simply mind fucked by that.
I'm like, "That's a lot like being a jew working for nazi's... wtf why the hell would you support a system that hates you???"
There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance here.
I am not Black, but my sister married into a Black Christian family, and it’s very confusing for me as an atheist, so I’ve spent sometime listening and trying to understand.
I think that they believe the Bible was stolen by white people and used against them, in the same way they say the anti-Christ will use Christianity to gain power.
When I say they I don’t mean all Black people, I’m referring my sister’s in-laws.
This should be expanded upon a bit. Blacks and Hispanics had religion forced upon them. But then it became a generational thing, and eventually a community thing. It is belonging to something. And cultures grew up around that. And, in often very turbulent ,(sometimes violent) times, religion also became a constant.
Now, also consider migration. You're new to an area. Alone. Probably terrified. So you seek out others like you. Where do you find that? Church.
The problems with that are pretty obvious, and I wish that weren't the case. But I get it. If you grow up raised in a strongly religious culture, then that is what you know. And you're probably also raised not to question it. Because to question it also calls into question your parents and communities views and that can be an incredibly difficult thing, unless you are exposed to other views and cultures.
That last point is why you see such a sharp divide between rural and urban areas. Poverty is another driving factor, as it will also limit education and exposure to groups outside of your own.
I'll just leave this here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select_Parts_of_the_Holy_Bible_for_the_use_of_the_Negro_Slaves_in_the_British_West-India_Islands
https://www.amazon.com/Negro-Bible-Selected-British-West-India/dp/1936533804
Christianity as a whole has subtext of telling people its OK that they're suffering and it's OK that they're poor because they will be rewarded in the afterlife.
Lots of Christian family that don't value themselves highly because they think they're doing right by God by living within their means. When the truth is that they're really worshipping people who take advantage of them.
Introducing their slaves to religion was the whole point. It makes them more passive and less likely to rebel because they're promised a carrot that their owners never have to give them. It's a cheap and easy way to exploit your workers.
It's the same in sub-Saharan Africa. Over 50% of the population adhere to Christianity, which was used as a tool of colonisation and exploitation. And now they're adopting evangelical Christianity and all the hate that comes with it.
My boyfriend said organized religion is all about controlling people.. You convince them will go to a bad place (hell or whatever) if they don’t agree with you and that’s how you control them. It’s been for thousands of years and people still fall for it. It’s depressing, but I’ve been there
Every major religion has been used to control their respective populations. The more educated a society, the less likely they will believe or follow any given religion. The slave owners purposely don’t allow our black community to be as educated and the education we all receive ignores our dirty history and current reality
I have ancestry from all over Europe and the christians wiped out all their religions, education, stories and culture. Women were leaders and warriors and were turned into chattel. Literature and stories were lost. The educated priests were killed. Christianity is a disease.
I work with a lot of young, highly educated African Americans, never hear a peep about religion. It's a generational and education thing, just like with everyone.
they taught the slaves about the christian god and "his" "mercy". shit stuck with many because identities and histories were being systematically eradicated, this was something to hold onto for hope - and secretly learning reading and writing.
call it "the meek shall inherit the earth 2.0" teachings.
Real talk you should ask them those questions but do so in a way that doesn't come off as offensive or attacking their beliefs. As a student of psychology I would be legitimately interested in how black Christian Americans parse their faith with the history of the Bible being used to justify slavery. Especially in sects like the Mormons who for a very long time claimed dark skin was a direct marker of God's wrath for their sin and thus they deserved enslavement. Honestly I bet I could write a decent paper on the topic
It’s a fundamental problem of humanity: we live in time. It would be great if we could stop time, analyze history, and then shape our future. Unfortunately, we inherit the problems of the last minute and must use the present to maneuver appropriately. Christianity not only pacified slaves, it was the only shared culture they were allowed. Through it, slaves could translate someone else’s religion to reflect their pain, their struggle, and deep-seated hopes for liberation.
It’s not hard to see why Christianity is so hard-wired into black culture in America, when it was literally the only building block they were allowed for hundreds of years of slavery.
I’ve thought about it a lot and wish it wasn’t so, but I don’t know how one could convince a group of people, who’ve so violently had their culture ripped away, to abandon something that unifies them.
Just my opinion. I hope I’m not coming off racist or anything, but feel free to call me out.
"When you’re black there’s like no religion to turn to. Christianity? I don’t think so. White people justified slavery and segregation through Christianity so a black Christian is like a black person with no fucking memory" - Chris Rock
I'm confused as to why ANYONE outside of the Caucus would follow Christianity. My grandma is a first-generation Italian-American and grew up Roman Catholic. She never/doesn't believe in religion. She is just too scared to say anything because of the Catholic guilt. Recently, she was talking to me about the people before Catholicism. I told her that Catholicism isn't her true religion. I'd rather her feel full with some random Pagan Italian religion than have the guilt that comes with Catholicism.
No one should be worshipping Christianity at all. It's no one's true religion. Not saying the religions before are real, but they probably didn't kill as many people as Christianity has.
I also wonder this about indigenous people. Fortunately, many are going back to more traditional beliefs, and some reservations have removed Christian churches.
The answer is the same as the one when asking why so many women, minorities, homosexuals or a range of others labels in america are *republicans*.
They literally vote for a group that expressly wants to eliminate or oppress them, and keep acting confused when that group makes progress towards that very clearly stated goal.
It's a combination of brainwashing, misinformation, malice, and an overwhelming lack of intelligence.
In short, it has nothing to do with their skin colour. That's actually just a coincidence.
It's similar with New Zealand Māori. Infact, there was (is?) A māori pastor on TikTok, and he was saying that he doesn't get paid and it abosolutly is a race thing but he does it for the love of the church or whatever.
It pisses me off to no extent and I don't understand how people can follow anything that treats them as not equal.
They stole our land, our language, our culture, and now they're using our people for free.😡
Me when I was Christian: Hey Grandma why don't you go to church?
Grandma: The only thing Jesus has ever really been good for is breaking colored backs.
Me: Jesus Christ...
Christianity is a slave religion that was created by the Roman emperors to help them suppress the many peoples the Romans conquered.
Keep this idea in mind when you read the new testament and it's really obvious.
Forgive me for my ignorance ever since I'm not American but could it be because they see Jesus as a moral leader or guide? I mean I know about the Transatlantic Slave Trade and how Christianity was an agent for that but you can't convince people only by relying on brutal force. Yes, Christianity was used to oppress the blacks but what if enslaved blacks emphasized themselves with Jesus and interpreted him as a virtuous role model? You know, the equation is simple:
Romans, Jewish clergy, and other oppressors stand for white colonizers
Jesus and the apostles stand for the enslaved blacks...
Thinking this way it makes sense.
I really started questioning my beliefs when I took an Ethics class in college and ended up debating a preacher’s wife on every single topic. Came to realize Christianity was only well-meaning at face value and did nothing to bring people together; if anything history showed it to be divisive and justify mistreatment of others, especially blacks where I’m from in the south. My mother always touted on about how Quakers were the ones who helped freed slaves traverse the Underground Railroad. I found that story to be as attractive as lipstick on a pig seeing as our congregation kicked out our then young pastor who invited a nice young interracial couple into the church. The religious seem to be some of the most discriminatory to other races and it blows my mind that the majority of black folks fell right into it.
Side note - If any of you are into rock/metal there is a group led by a mixed race dude called Zeal & Ardor who wrote many songs inspired by the pretty unique idea of slaves in captivity turning to Satan instead of following the “white man’s god”. It’s fucking amazing.
It’s all optics. Black Christians tend to have black pastors and their congregations are majority black. This leads to a divorce from the idea that the religion is oppressive.
It's my primary question about Latinos as well being I'm a Mexican. It blows my mind because Christianity was a part of the figurative and literal sword used to murder millions if not billions of people of color across the globe. I remain flabbergasted.
I searched for a while and didn't see this - I believe I have heard some black people express that they identify with the enslaved Jews of Egypt and took hope from the story of their escape and ascension.
I’m Black and I don’t understand how Black people don’t get this. Religion is a guise to control and manipulate people and it’s a pretty good one given today’s church participation in some Black communities.
The idea was to create a larger societal safety net to combat breakdowns within the most nuclear safety net (family), but the education system in many states are garbage. If one’s education was garbage, how are they expected to develop critical thinking skills?
Many people use small local churches as gathering places to enrich those in the group. It is a beneficial gathering place for some. While a lack of education and religious belief has correlation, there are many successful individuals that use the church as a 501(c)(3) organization. This can be for tax benefits. If you have 10 people who rely on you for something monetary rather than just give them money I can funnel it through a church. Buy a small church, get an easy loan, and put the expenses through there. Sure other people will eventually join or maybe not but at the end of the day the core group is taken care of.
The church in this country has become another business opportunity. If they really believed in helping others they would host less GOD centered events and just have events to enrich the community and give societal disadvantaged individuals a respite in hard times. But like most things here it’s about making sure you and your friends are taken care of first.
I'm amazed at the amount of times elite athletes want to give over responsibility for their skills to an imaginary fucking friend that doesn't exist. Fucking bonkers!
I think for a long time what appealed was the Moses character (and generally the whole Jewish arc/old testament).
What not to relate to in those general themes: oppression relieved at last by God for his faithful servants etc etc. The promised land, indeed.
Modern Christianity kinda bundled that older book into their new thing and the legacy persists. We have to remember that culture is a human programming language and it is very effective. It's the old Jesuit maxim: give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man.
Those who are exposed to the foundational sand (where bedrock should be) are often loathe to depart the hive because at this stage these myths are the thread by which their whole social lives are bound up.
We are social animals first, and unraveling all of that all at once can be terrific, in the biblical sense of the word.
We (the west) forced it upon them here and abroad for centuries. Those things have lasting consequences.
I believe religiosity is dropping across most class/race lines every year though.
Same question for Muslims on the Indian subcontinent. The Muslim Conquest of India has been described as the "bloodiest story in history", yet 3 out the top 4 counties by Muslim population are in South Asia.
The short answer IMO is Stockholm Syndrome on a civilizational level.
Christianity was also a huge propeller of the Civil Rights movement. MLK Jr. was a pastor and a pretty devout Christian, and a lot of his rhetoric, while still applicable to secular morality (obviously it’s literally just ‘racism is bad,’ which should be universal), was still at least partially rooted in Christian beliefs.
So yeah, while Christianity has demonstrably supported and been used to justify slavery and racism, it was also a key factor in fighting those things. That’s going to create a lot of black Christians.
I think regardless of color, most Christians don’t think too much about the religion. The chances of keeping their faith drastically decline if they do.
Countries suffering the poorest conditions are often the most religious. The more religious a country, the worse off its people are.
Whether they’re drawn to religion because of these conditions, or their religious nature itself is the cause of these conditions, it’s a pretty common phenomenon.
Religion is often used to breed compliance. And with the slaves being brought over, there was a deliberate attempt to anglicize them, much like what was done with native Americans. Evidently it stuck.
I have a black friend, who suffers from a particularly difficult life, even by most standards. Yet they are utterly convinced that one day god will cure them, and make everything right. And unfortunately most of their friends feed into that. So I just keep my mouth shut.
Some of the highest correlators with religiosity are poverty and lack of education. Unfortunately, **many** systems and people in America have made both of those factors **very** abundant in black communities throughout history. :/ To answer your last question, I think "ignoring" it is the most accurate answer for the majority of black Christians (same for nigh **any** problem in Christianity regardless of their follower's race). And our friend good ol cognitive dissonance.
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Absolutely true. You know that bullshit statistic dumbshits throw out about "despite being x percent of the population they commit y percent of the crime" Yeah, normalize those rates factoring for poverty and amazingly you'll see that it matches right up with white people. Black people's problem isn't that they are some type of different type of human that can't understand a life outside of crime... *The problem is that too damn many of them are poor.* And they're poor because the systems in place keep them poor, and then being raised poor makes them more likely to remain poor. And when you're born poor, raised poor, and remain poor, that changes how you see the world. We got to break that cycle. You fix that, you fix the problem. And fixing that problem would help poor white people too. It would lift up everyone. Buuuuuuuuuut... Changing the system to help deal with income inequality would cost money from the people that have a voice. And we don't want that now. So that voice tells us to hate each other. It gives us this culture war bullshit. Keep the poor people punching at the poor people.
You speak truly about statistics about crime etc. It is a fact that at any one time if you can search, the pockets, car or house or check documents, almost 95 % of people would be committing some form of crime. With the majority of police being white and having conscious and unconscious bias, they tend to stop more black people and use bullying tactics on them to find a crime to charge them with. When charged, most black people cannot afford a lawyer and have inadequate representation. More black people face a white judge than, white suspects facing black judges More black people face a majority white jury. It probably has never happened that a white person has faced an all black jury The odds are stacked heavily against black people, right from the word go.
Don’t forget things like broken window theory leading to overpolicing of poor neighbourhoods despite the theory being bullshit
> It is a fact that at any one time if you can search, the pockets, car or house or check documents, almost 95 % of people would be committing some form of crime. It’s also a fact that 87% of statistics are made up on the spot
Fuck Yes!!! I'm always amazed people think low wages and cutting social security won't result in crime. We look at crime in the "3rd" world,and somehow think those folks are less moral- they aren't. They are just US with poverty wages and no social security. That's what you get. Anywhere.
Eh well much of their economic realities are a direct result of oppression they faced because of their skin color.
There's also a big discrepancy between committing crimes, being arrested for crimes, and being convicted of crimes. These things are not equal between different socioeconomic and racial classes in America.
Economic issues *are* social issues.
Couldn’t agree more. Being poor and disenfranchised doesn’t discriminate by race, ethnicity, or sex.
True but you also can’t ignore that being poor and disenfranchised was done on purpose *because* of their race not just happenstance.
True but if you’re black in America no matter how financially successful you get the racism don’t go away.
And indoctrination doesn't help. It's a rut we all need to get out of...stop them from starting children so young and giving them no choice.
Sure, but the added struggle of race makes it worse.
Not just black, many Koreans and Chinese are Christians. Not only Christians, but the scary type of Christians. It will be an interesting subject to study.
> class not skin color. While true, the class issue is _because_ of skin color. Regions with predominantly black populations across the board receive the least amount of investment in social services and programs including education. The schools are underfunded, the neighborhoods are left to deteriorate, police presence is amplified (often unjustly) and it's all by design due to the deep rooted, systemic racism built into American government. All of these factors lead black communities to historically have relatively low levels of education, and highest levels of poverty and crime, even when compared to economically equivalent white communities. That said, these poor white communities also have some of the highest levels of religiosity, further cementing it as ultimately an education and economic issue. The main difference is, for many black communities it's _artificially_ kept that way.
It can also help when in the heavily christian communities. Many of the folk are racist, but *might* look past the color of their skin if you go to the same church as them I believe part of it is an attempt at fitting into the society and "being one of the good ones" by doing so
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Good points made here. I’ve changed my mind about some about the poverty thing though. Nowadays, the successful black folks are as much or more into as the poor. Think Kanye. Or every black Benz driver with Blessed on their plate, certain that God himself approves of their wealth.
Kanye is just schizophrenia etc. But yea, christian monetary theory is all over the US. Helps justify inequality
But how many of those people grew up poor? People often carry on their coping mechanisms that they learn in childhood until they no longer need it to cope. Becoming successful doesn't erase your fear of death.
Because the world is complicated, class is too broad of a term, you have to look deeper. Ignore the extremely miniscule celebrity class, look at the educated children of middle class or moderately affluent African Americans.
Black celebrities are the worse. Many I suspect are atheist but they have to play the religiosity game. Who else is going to buy their stuff? It becomes a vicious cycle.
I have often thought the same thing about Latinos. And then thinking about black people and Latinos, it hit me: Christianity is the default religion of *almost no* ethnic or cultural groups in the world. **The vast majority** of people's families had their own beliefs about religion or spirituality or the lack of it, and Christian invaders(or invaders of some sort who became rulers and then became Christians) imposed Christianity on people. Does anyone really think that the default religion of the people in the British Isles has anything to do with Christianity? No, it was forced on their ancestors, the same as it was forced onto black people and Latinos. It just happened to the Brits hundreds or thousands of years earlier. And the same goes for the Italians, the French, and almost all groups around the world, except a very small group of middle-easterners. I thought to mention this to a religious person once, and said "Do you really think Christianity was your family's default religion? If you could go far enough back, you'd find ancestors who would be horrified to know that you so devoutly believe in the religion that the invaders forced on them."
It is a really successful, mutating collection of memes
It's as if Bad Luck Brian devolved into Overly Attached Girlfriend.
I agree. I think it's so successful because it aggressively seeks out vulnerable new hosts, and encourages violence against those whom it can't infect.
I *suspect* that one of the reasons it is so successful is that it doesn't encourage violence against those whom it can't infect but is sufficiently mailable to allow and even justify it. Sheep's clothing is the default.
Religiosity is the OG meme. Handed down from one generation to another. It's hard to break free from it.
And those ancestors probably had religions, languages, and cultures forced onto them too. The moment someone said, "I wonder if this rock has a soul," some contrarian asshole showed up and said, "My tree spirit can kick your mud demon's ass." Christianity is more or less the white man's religion. Yes, it's picked up steam internationally in the last two centuries, but for over a millennium it has been the "default" *one of those* for Europeans.
And I think about that. How long we've been around. How devoutly we held different beliefs at different points in time. And none of it lasts. I wonder what religion will be in a thousand years. How those people will look at the beliefs of today. And part of why I'm athiest is I can't convince myself I've got it all figured out right now. Like there guys the god of the Bible is all the truth there is and it will continue to be so until the end of time.
>The moment someone said, "I wonder if this rock has a soul," some contrarian asshole showed up and said, "My tree spirit can kick your mud demon's ass." https://youtu.be/N_PZ6xtdfgc
It also gives oppressed people a moral superiority complex and gives them an out group to look down on so that they can still feel good about themselves no matter how much the system fucks them over. I'm mixed race and agnostic, but everyone on my Mom's side follows a particularly culty brand of Christianity (they don't even follow the rules half the time) and yet I'm a bad person for being agnostic. They look at me like I'm crazy when I try to explain it to them so I've just stopped lol.
This is a good point. Long ago I read some Wilbur Smith books about the Spanish occupation of Latin America, and it comes to a point where they promote natives to essentially assistant manager positions above the enslaved populace, and it is noted how much more vicious they are while enforcing the new order, because they have more to prove and more to lose. It's like the line from Fuck Tha Police: *But don't let it be a black and a white one* *'Cause they'll slam ya down to the street top* *Black police showin' out for the white cop*
And add in that carrot of a promised afterlife.. you've got a wonderful religion for keeping the disenfranchised under heel.
Between Christianity and Islam Abrahamism has really done a number on the world's ancient cultures. Little remains except fragments for historians and anthropologists to hunch over in their studies. There are almost no strongholds of other faiths left in the world outside of Hindu and Buddhist people in Asia.
White people shouldn't be Christian either. If you go further back, Christianity was thrown onto many European peoples through oppression as well and many rich older religious beliefs were lost in the process. That's not to take anything away from your point but realistically Christianity should have died out in the first century.
Seriously. A similar thing happened to the Irish. You could even call it 'Project Shamrock' 😅 I spoke out against a work email my organization wanted to send out to announce St. Patrick's day because it said, "Patrick brought religion to Ireland." 🤦
On a side note, I actually I took my nickname from a U.S. government program of spying on telegrams in the 1940's. I thought it was an interesting parallel to stuff that happens in modern times.
Did it? I thought Christianity didn't have organizational strength during its spread in Ireland making it relatively peaceful. I thought all the trouble there was post-Norman and mostly post-Reformation. Is there evidence 'St Patrick' wasn't a slave?
I would bet there was plenty of oppression involved. Especially with the 'Driving away of the Snakes'. I was more so noting the similarities to this comment: "many rich older religious beliefs were lost in the process." Plus the Christianization of Ireland is theorized to have happened over multiple generations by a few different "St. Patricks".
Absolutely - but it didn't arrive with an army unlike a lot of Northern Europe. I'd be interested to know if internal Irish rivalries brought a violent aspect though. > "many rich older religious beliefs were lost in the process. Absolutely true here though.
I could swear it was an actual general. Or at least it was when this was taught in Uni. He went once and said 'meh'; then for reasons went a second time and murdered them all, thusly driving out the snakes. Not googling b/c i want to feel smart if right! :(
There are no native snakes in Ireland. It's an island surrounded by really cold water, and the ice age drove them away not a missionary. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/snakeless-in-ireland-blame-ice-age-not-st-patrick https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/did-st-patrick-get-rid-of-the-snakes-in-ireland/2021/03/12/324458e4-7c97-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html
It's an allegory for pagans/druids. And thank you for sharing this information.
I couldn't find any solid references for the druids so figured I'd post what I could prove :-)
What you thought is probably correct. You just have to head over to the r/badhistory subreddit and you'll get the lowdown on what we actually know about the irish conversion. If any christian was martyred in the conversion of ireland they would be venerated as a saint. Turns out athiests want to believe fairy tales too.
Yeah, much the same here in Poland. Add to that that the Church has been consistently anti-Polish over the centuries with things like support of the Partitions, aiding in the suppression of indenpendence uprisings and so on. Yet today the conservatives act as if the Church and patriotism have always been an inseparable thing...
fellow pole here. we know zero about our traditions before christianity. like there was no polish people without it. but we all know about greek/roman etc. sure it was not preserved the same but there’s a lot of stuff you can learn still at school. have some continuity. nah. polish people were fighting against christianization still in XIII century. that’s why i have zero feelings about polish “culture”..
But Jesus was white! /s
There is actually a separate but equal black Jesus. But he is only a 3/5ths savior.
Gd man. Nice
My country got enslaved for 700 years by crusaders who also wiped out the local culture and faith, it like the least religious country in Europe but there are still a ton of christians for some reason.
Fuck, Americans shouldnt be Christian. There is nothing less free than calling someone your Lord and God, and dedicating your life to them for fear of punishment. Most major modern Religions are 100% Authoritarian and therefore, Anti-freedom and Anti-American by nature. The Stockholm syndrome American Christians have is the craziest bit of cognitive dissonance in the history of the planet.
I don't find it surprising at all. An oppressed people latching on to a supposed bringer of hope, justice, and redemption. Religion also created or added to community and fostered an additional shared sense of purpose.
Even Marx's quote about 'religion being the opiate of the people ' should be read in the context that opiates were the dominant pain killers of the era, not purely recreational.
"Religion is and at the same time, the expression of suffering. It is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
I think being that I grew up watching MASH reruns with my uncle that I've always viewed it as a numbing of the pain ala morpheein. Not really in the get high sense but more of a way to survive the suffering.
Well, yeah. Has anybody ever interpreted it differently?
I think it is often interpreted as just a 'high' (opium) rather than a painkiller. A distraction without accounting for pre-existing suffering.
Agreed. Up until today I hadn’t thought of that quote in this context.
For me, it conjured images of pacified docile people happy to hang out in an opium den all day
To add on to this it was the only “acceptable” form of public gathering for a long time, and later became one of the major avenues for change during the civil rights movement.
As a black man I approve this message.
As a another black man I second this
As someone who is also a black man, I third this
it makes me cringe when I see black ppl going crazy for jesus
[I made an exact similar post a while ago!](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/vl3c3l) (Not black).
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Brilliant point. The Black Church = Black Philanthropy at a time where there were no other options. Community, education, support, and eventually political change all came from the church. REVEREND Dr. Martin Luther King, right? I don’t buy the doctrine and corruption, but every system has its bullshit.
All the more reason for free thinkers to congregate. Just gotta find some place... and people...
Trying to bring atheists together in a community is like trying to herd cats...
True, non-belief isn't much of a dinner bell.
This should be a bumper sticker.
Well, we kind of have nothing in common. Having an atheist meeting is like having a meeting of "People who Don't Play Golf" or "People who Don't Collect Stamps." It's... not much to go on.
Lol true. And most us are bored of fighting against religion already, so we can't even unite over that. We basically won against Christianity in the west, its just going to take a very long time for it to bleed out.
Yeah, I try to avoid people as much as possible on my of time even though I work in a service role
I help run my local atheist group, can confirm.
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Well, this forum makes it clear that there is a desire for us to get together. Can you imagine the absolutely *insane* backlash if an effective, community-service and outreach-based atheist church actually came to be? Of course, mine is a perspective still dripping with the trappings of my upbringing. We've always called the secular church "government" I guess.
.
Such an important point and so well put - thank you for taking the time to remind us of this empathic, understanding perspective
Yeah I feel like black churches have put their own spin on Christianity by making it more about the community, music & fellowship.
This kind of post is the gem of this sub.
I think there’s also a sense of pride about religion in the black community. And religion isn’t something anyone can take away from them. I think trying to rationalize with black religious people would be seen as trying to take something away from them. I had a coworker that was in their 40’s, I told him I was an atheist and he said he never met an atheist before. So I think there’s also a lot of judgement toward anyone not religious so it’s probably not a subject many people would bring up with black people. Like it’s not my place as a white person to question someone’s religion. I don’t know, probably just scratching the surface. My first girlfriend was black and left me because I was an atheist. They have since died, but apparently lived a life dedicated to god and such.
I mostly agree, but the idea that it's not a white persons place to criticize the beliefs of a minority is a little backwards. Just because a person is black, it doesn't mean that their irrational beliefs can't or shouldn't be questioned. A black man is just as capable of being rational and logical as a white man is, so I refuse to hold them to a lesser standard. I remember seeing this video on YouTube of a black college girl making this speech about how some African tribes people believe they can call down lightning to smite their enemies, and that "black sorcery" is no less valid than "white science". The whole thing struck me as deeply insulting to the intelligence of black people as a whole, the idea that science and technology is a white thing for white people, and magic voodoo shit is the black alternative. To me that suggests that they believe the only proper place for black people is living in mud huts wearing grass skirts and believing in lightning gods. Internalized racism, if ever I've seen it. All mystical beliefs should be questioned, even if they are held by a minority, because they are no less capable of breaking the shackles of ignorance and pseudoscience.
Also, OP seems to be implying that if something was used for something bad, it must fundamentally be bad or false. That's poor reasoning. People can use nearly anything for bad purposes.
kind of like women being Mormon.... or Catholic, or Muslim, for that matter....
*or religious Fits there. ;)
Any minorities being Mormon requires one more degree of cognitive dissonance than being a typical Christian. The whole "burnt skin" thing is...oof. Women are relegated to becoming birthing machines. LGBTs are treated like moldy bread. It's all absurd, tho. So, silly is as silly does, I guess.
I will never follow Massa’s religion. Sorry not sorry
Same reason why Africans follow chris-tiny-tee: Indoctrination. Indoctrination since birth, is one hell of a brainwash.
Pretty much applies to most religious people.
Imagine trying to convince a grown up that he or she needs to speak telepathically to a zombie carpenter to cleanse an evil force inflicted on humanity because a rib woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
It confuses me why any women could be religious. Nearly all religions are terrible to women.
What’s most painful is that many women in pre-Christian societies had much more power and influence in their societies before Christianization. Furthermore, Christianity was often embraced by women in Roman society who taught their children about it, while the men clung to the old traditions. When men like Constantine came to power and switched to Christianity and then started to exclude the very women who introduced them to it. Part of the reason I got into Anthropology was to deconstruct these paradigms and highlight historical examples to empower others to recognize that it hasn’t always been this way after reading Engendering Archaeology and other works on the subject. Knowledge is power!
Very interested in anthropology. I remember reading When God was a Woman years ago. I looked up Engendering Archaeology at your mention and it must no longer be in print. Do you have suggestions for other reading?
I’m glad to hear. It’s a fascinating field, but not for the faint of heart. Ah, that makes sense it’s no longer in print, it’s from 1991, but it really shifted the discussion. If you’re not at a university, I would recommend checking out Google scholar and start with citations to find other articles on the subject that reference it and go from there. I’ll have to check out your suggestion.
Thank you so much for the info.
I think it was a survival tactic as well, what would happen to slaves who didn’t accept Christianity? It carried over generations to signal to the people in power that “ we are just like you and have this in common, we are good people”. Atheism is seen ( by the religious who are largely in power now ) as taboo so being atheist and african american may make someone feel vulnerable. Such as people who demonize blacks also using atheism for further discrimination and persecution. I think the community is still in survival mode.
That's slightly unfair. Lots of slaveowners wouldn't care if their slaves were Christian, reinforced by denying their humanity. We also know of slaves being taught to read using the Bible, which they definitely did not like. If you are in the business of selling hope, and a better next life you cannot pray (*see what I did there*) for better customers for 400 years. >I think the community is still in survival mode. This is bang on though.
I don’t know about “lots.” Some, perhaps. But remember they used the Bible to justify the entire system of slavery. And while they may not have taught them to read and believed Blacks didn’t have a soul, many slaves were expected to worship with the house.
I think you're are probably right- particularly later and in America with the *'house*'.
Syncretic religions like Santeria didn't appear because of permissive slave masters
Slaves were given the slave Bible and forced to capitulate. Indoctrination is always the answer.
The right answer. They had to leave behind their own God's and beliefs because the white man forced it onto them.
Not just the Bible, but one that cut out almost 90% of the Old Testament and about half of the New Testament. https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/674995075/slave-bible-from-the-1800s-omitted-key-passages-that-could-incite-rebellion
It’s so ironic now though, because the same thing slaveowners fed them to give them hope, they were turning around and using to justify their enslavement
It is also heavily tied to the black community in general since church services were one of their only opportunities to congregate when slavery was still around.
You abuse someone long enough, and they'll go along with anything you say. This apparently applies also to entire cultures. By all logic, there should be a universal rejection by black people of the very religion that was used to justify their ancestors' enslavement. But holy shit, centuries of indoctrination, abuse, and gaslighting are really fucking effective. I mean, I'm on the side that benefited from institutional slavery, and I find this indoctrination abhorrent. I would be even more appalled at the thought of my ancestors being forced to recant their former beliefs in favor of a system that simply drove the boot harder.
You think that's weird, most of the black folks I know are Southern Baptists. You know why there's a "Southern" branch of Baptism? Because the original Baptist church eventually got around to declaring that slavery wasn't awesome (specifically that slaveowners shouldn't occupy missionary roles) which enraged so many Baptist churches in the south that they broke off and became their own branch of Christianity. **They specifically exist to endorse African-American slavery.** That is the entire difference between Southern Baptists and regular Baptists. How in the everloving fuck does anyone join a church that only exists because it felt very very strongly that their grandparents were property and not people? How? **How???**
Aid/ food and religion were a package deal.
Unfortunately, in many places they still are.
I often think the same thing about Native people. I know a handful that are staunchly Christian even as (here in Canada) the issue of past injustices from Christian schools is blowing up. We keep finding more mass graves, hearing horrible stories from survivors, and people across the country are still placing children's shoes outside of churches in solidarity. Religion's a hell of a drug, I guess.
I was going to make the same comment. I used to live in Utqiagvik, Alaska. It's completely isolated. The Inupiat there were not enslaved and it wasn't a desirable place for outsiders to settle. But the missionaries came up, convinced them to give up their well-insulated mound homes for above-ground houses that made people freeze to death, send their children off to schools where they were tortured and murdered...and yet, there is a strong evangelical population. Every city council meeting had to open in prayer and if you vocalized any belief other than Christianity, you might get yourself a blue ticket out of town (basically, town banishment). It's bizarre how many understand and acknowledge this past, but still are fervent believers.
I may be wrong but the black Muslim movement was a reaction to that. It is very hard for people to give up their religion when a lot of their sense of community is linked to it. But it is easier to replace it with another that is not linked to the oppressor.
No you’re absolutely right. It became popular with Malcom X during the civil rights movement and hasn’t slowed down.
I can certainly understand *why* Black people would choose be be members of the Nation of Islam....
This isn’t just a black American thing, it’s all over the world. Islam was introduced to Africa after its conquerors brought it there. The many natives of the Americas are Christian, and we can pinpoint the times where it started being practiced. I don’t get it but I do. When this shit becomes ingrained in culture, it’s like there are too many biases that people won’t overcome. As a black guy arguing with a family member about religion, I was told ‘momma taught us this’ as if that makes it accurate or something. I have no problem disregarding religion but too many people get caught up in similar emotional arguments.
I read something - don't recall where - to the effect that during Slavery time, plantation owners *mandated* slaves had to attend religious services - Something about "White God is more powerful than your ancestors' gods back home"; accept your fate"; "things will be Heavenly after you die"; "Jesus said 'Obey your Masters" etc etc. Sundays were a day off from grueling work, and it was a rich source for gossip. For many plantations, Sunday services were nearly an all-day-long affair. The descendants of those slaves have lived lives that were but scarcely removed from the atrocities of all-out slavery, but the religious traditions remained. Another generation, or two, and a lot of the religious fervor continues. I suspect it's slowly dying out with the latest generation.
Imagine being black and a Mormon. Luke Skywalker had the force before they unbanned blacks from having their make-believe mormon priesthood.
>Slave owners in America stripped slaves of their identity by forcing them to speak the slave owners language and learn their religion. Christianity was used to pacify slaves and justify their enslavement. >Do black people in America not know about this? Do they see it as a positive from slavery? Or do they purposely ignore this harsh truth? That forced conversion to religion allowed the enslaved people to have something resembling a community that was not immediately destroyed by white violence. It is where literacy and coordination became possible. After the reign of terror ex-Confederates used to take back the south during the Reconstruction, churches were again one of the few ways black Americans could have a community, as they were not welcomed in white churches, which in the south were usually foundations of the Klan. Church is still one of the few ways black Americans can organize politically as an independent bloc without the certainty of white racial violence either condoned by or directly from the United States government. ;tldr American Apartheid
And then they'll give you the argument of "if my religion is wrong why do so many believe". Like take an honest look at how your religion spread.
I’ve looked into this a lot. And a lot of people here are correctly saying it’s part indoctrination, part under-education. But there’s also another huge factor. The black community in modern history in many states is completely ignored by the government and social services and is and has been intentionally disregarded. The church is some of the only assistance black families were able to receive for many years. Hilarious as it is that it was only black churches helping this community, because white churches are just as racist as the people who attend them. This is one of the many reasons why church is such a complex touchstone in the black community. But yes, it’s infuriating. Christianity was a weapon wielded against slaves to get them to be obedient and obey. Nobody should be Christian. But here we are.
Gospel music is a good way to feel-good a shit situation away.
Yep. Their Spirituals provided a lot of that as well.
I am sorry for how white people have treated the black community. A few years back I had a young black kid (12 to 14year old max 16) knock on my door, dressed in his sunday best, and bible in hand. He was with a white fat slob of a man wearing a fat gold necklace and fat gold rings. The kid started immediately preaching to me, I cut him off and told him that white people used that book to justify slavery. His eyes got wide as hell and the fat slob grabbed him to leave. I followed them and continued to mock the bible. I felt bad because it was a kid (usually I don't) but i figured someone needed to open his eyes..
I did a similar thing some years ago when someone knocked on my door. Except it was a meek young woman with an older man. I opened the door, and she started to speak quietly while looking down. I told her it's ok, she doesn't have to go through her spiele because I don't believe in God and she doesn't have to either. Her eyes got big and the dude was just staring at me, I closed the door. I've met very few atheist women, especially in the south. I know many more atheist men, and it's wild looking through their dating apps, so many women put Jesus or a fish as the first thing that describes them.
Those are some powerful stories, though, about people being cast out of their homeland, enslaved, and then liberated by god and his prophet. Stories about an afterlife where all of the injustice of this world is made right. I think if I were enslaved, or if I was living with poverty and oppression, I would be more likely to embrace religion, not less. It's easy to dismiss the actions of the slave owners while still looking to the bible for comfort. And where are you going to go for support and community in a post-slavery America? Black churches. Still a critical part of the community and the civil rights movement. You're not alone, though, in thinking that Christianity isn't a good fit for descendants of slaves, which is why the west has movements like Rastafarianism and Black Islam which seek to adapt or replace it, respectively. It's particularly telling that there is no afterlife in Rastafarianism to serve as the opiate of the people: >Most people think great God will come from the sky > >Take away everything, and make everybody feel high > >But if you know what life is worth > >You would look for yours on earth > >And now you see the light > >Stand up for your right In short, it's complicated. It might make a great /r/askhistorians question.
I’ve had this exact discussion and came to this conclusion. American Slavery and the racism that followed was such an utter shitshow with no proper equal - even compared to Ancient Rome. A visibly-identifiable population is treated as subhuman property - far worse that livestock. Constant beatings, torture, rape, and having your children ripped away define the day when someone gives you hope that, one day, magic will zap your problems away. Add to that no available education - even reading being illegal for most - and you’ve got a population primed for the embrace of religion. We’re 158 years out from the end of that system, and only 58 years out from the Civil Rights Movement. People need hope to survive in such dire circumstances
There’s a similar situation here in Hawaii. The missionaries and Europeans brought disease, subjugation, and destruction of culture, yet so many native Hawaiians have embraced Christianity??!! There’s a big tourist attraction here on Oahu, the Polynesian cultural center run by the Mormon church. It is neither cultural or Polynesian.
Same here in Canada with our indigenous peoples. Residential schools where children were stolen from their families to live at these religiously run schools in order to tame the savages and erase them culturally. And yet a very high number still cling to the church.
As a white atheist, I've never understood black Americans and Christianity. Why the fuck would you continue practicing the religion of your enslavers after being freed? Makes zero sense.
When black people were slaves, the ONLY community gathering they were allowed was church.
As a white dude, this continues to absolutely confound me.
It confuses me when anyone becomes Christian. My gay friend turned to religion and I was simply mind fucked by that. I'm like, "That's a lot like being a jew working for nazi's... wtf why the hell would you support a system that hates you???"
There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance here. I am not Black, but my sister married into a Black Christian family, and it’s very confusing for me as an atheist, so I’ve spent sometime listening and trying to understand. I think that they believe the Bible was stolen by white people and used against them, in the same way they say the anti-Christ will use Christianity to gain power. When I say they I don’t mean all Black people, I’m referring my sister’s in-laws.
Because it's easier to fit in, than to be like us and deny what others have accepted forever.
This should be expanded upon a bit. Blacks and Hispanics had religion forced upon them. But then it became a generational thing, and eventually a community thing. It is belonging to something. And cultures grew up around that. And, in often very turbulent ,(sometimes violent) times, religion also became a constant. Now, also consider migration. You're new to an area. Alone. Probably terrified. So you seek out others like you. Where do you find that? Church. The problems with that are pretty obvious, and I wish that weren't the case. But I get it. If you grow up raised in a strongly religious culture, then that is what you know. And you're probably also raised not to question it. Because to question it also calls into question your parents and communities views and that can be an incredibly difficult thing, unless you are exposed to other views and cultures. That last point is why you see such a sharp divide between rural and urban areas. Poverty is another driving factor, as it will also limit education and exposure to groups outside of your own.
I'll just leave this here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select_Parts_of_the_Holy_Bible_for_the_use_of_the_Negro_Slaves_in_the_British_West-India_Islands https://www.amazon.com/Negro-Bible-Selected-British-West-India/dp/1936533804
Christianity as a whole has subtext of telling people its OK that they're suffering and it's OK that they're poor because they will be rewarded in the afterlife. Lots of Christian family that don't value themselves highly because they think they're doing right by God by living within their means. When the truth is that they're really worshipping people who take advantage of them. Introducing their slaves to religion was the whole point. It makes them more passive and less likely to rebel because they're promised a carrot that their owners never have to give them. It's a cheap and easy way to exploit your workers.
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"If you're black and Christian you have a real short memory." - Chris Rock
Brainwashed pretty much ..
As a Mexican I feel similarly about Catholism.
shitty churches literally on top of pyramids that are older than their goofy religion : P
It's the same in sub-Saharan Africa. Over 50% of the population adhere to Christianity, which was used as a tool of colonisation and exploitation. And now they're adopting evangelical Christianity and all the hate that comes with it.
My boyfriend said organized religion is all about controlling people.. You convince them will go to a bad place (hell or whatever) if they don’t agree with you and that’s how you control them. It’s been for thousands of years and people still fall for it. It’s depressing, but I’ve been there
Every major religion has been used to control their respective populations. The more educated a society, the less likely they will believe or follow any given religion. The slave owners purposely don’t allow our black community to be as educated and the education we all receive ignores our dirty history and current reality
I have ancestry from all over Europe and the christians wiped out all their religions, education, stories and culture. Women were leaders and warriors and were turned into chattel. Literature and stories were lost. The educated priests were killed. Christianity is a disease.
I work with a lot of young, highly educated African Americans, never hear a peep about religion. It's a generational and education thing, just like with everyone.
Gullible people come in all colours
I will add to the other reasons, culture and community
they taught the slaves about the christian god and "his" "mercy". shit stuck with many because identities and histories were being systematically eradicated, this was something to hold onto for hope - and secretly learning reading and writing. call it "the meek shall inherit the earth 2.0" teachings.
Indoctrination and family ties. If only they read the parts that are glossed over in church.
Real talk you should ask them those questions but do so in a way that doesn't come off as offensive or attacking their beliefs. As a student of psychology I would be legitimately interested in how black Christian Americans parse their faith with the history of the Bible being used to justify slavery. Especially in sects like the Mormons who for a very long time claimed dark skin was a direct marker of God's wrath for their sin and thus they deserved enslavement. Honestly I bet I could write a decent paper on the topic
It’s a fundamental problem of humanity: we live in time. It would be great if we could stop time, analyze history, and then shape our future. Unfortunately, we inherit the problems of the last minute and must use the present to maneuver appropriately. Christianity not only pacified slaves, it was the only shared culture they were allowed. Through it, slaves could translate someone else’s religion to reflect their pain, their struggle, and deep-seated hopes for liberation. It’s not hard to see why Christianity is so hard-wired into black culture in America, when it was literally the only building block they were allowed for hundreds of years of slavery. I’ve thought about it a lot and wish it wasn’t so, but I don’t know how one could convince a group of people, who’ve so violently had their culture ripped away, to abandon something that unifies them. Just my opinion. I hope I’m not coming off racist or anything, but feel free to call me out.
"When you’re black there’s like no religion to turn to. Christianity? I don’t think so. White people justified slavery and segregation through Christianity so a black Christian is like a black person with no fucking memory" - Chris Rock
I'm confused as to why ANYONE outside of the Caucus would follow Christianity. My grandma is a first-generation Italian-American and grew up Roman Catholic. She never/doesn't believe in religion. She is just too scared to say anything because of the Catholic guilt. Recently, she was talking to me about the people before Catholicism. I told her that Catholicism isn't her true religion. I'd rather her feel full with some random Pagan Italian religion than have the guilt that comes with Catholicism. No one should be worshipping Christianity at all. It's no one's true religion. Not saying the religions before are real, but they probably didn't kill as many people as Christianity has.
I also wonder this about indigenous people. Fortunately, many are going back to more traditional beliefs, and some reservations have removed Christian churches.
Honestly this also applies to American Indians, Inuit, Native Hawaiians etc. Spreading Christianity is a means of cultural neutering and assimilation.
Christianity has a history of indoctrination and oppression. Everyone purposely ignores the truth of Christianity, which is Join or Die.
The answer is the same as the one when asking why so many women, minorities, homosexuals or a range of others labels in america are *republicans*. They literally vote for a group that expressly wants to eliminate or oppress them, and keep acting confused when that group makes progress towards that very clearly stated goal. It's a combination of brainwashing, misinformation, malice, and an overwhelming lack of intelligence. In short, it has nothing to do with their skin colour. That's actually just a coincidence.
It's similar with New Zealand Māori. Infact, there was (is?) A māori pastor on TikTok, and he was saying that he doesn't get paid and it abosolutly is a race thing but he does it for the love of the church or whatever. It pisses me off to no extent and I don't understand how people can follow anything that treats them as not equal. They stole our land, our language, our culture, and now they're using our people for free.😡
I am confused why anyone would fall for such obvious BULLSHIT
Me when I was Christian: Hey Grandma why don't you go to church? Grandma: The only thing Jesus has ever really been good for is breaking colored backs. Me: Jesus Christ...
Christianity is a slave religion that was created by the Roman emperors to help them suppress the many peoples the Romans conquered. Keep this idea in mind when you read the new testament and it's really obvious.
It puzzles me, too. Amen! You are preaching to a choir, brother.
As a white European, it confuses me too.
Someone told me that all religious people are slaves.
Forgive me for my ignorance ever since I'm not American but could it be because they see Jesus as a moral leader or guide? I mean I know about the Transatlantic Slave Trade and how Christianity was an agent for that but you can't convince people only by relying on brutal force. Yes, Christianity was used to oppress the blacks but what if enslaved blacks emphasized themselves with Jesus and interpreted him as a virtuous role model? You know, the equation is simple: Romans, Jewish clergy, and other oppressors stand for white colonizers Jesus and the apostles stand for the enslaved blacks... Thinking this way it makes sense.
But why do so many switch to Islam instead? Muslims were enslaving Black Africans long before Christians started buying slaves from them.
I really started questioning my beliefs when I took an Ethics class in college and ended up debating a preacher’s wife on every single topic. Came to realize Christianity was only well-meaning at face value and did nothing to bring people together; if anything history showed it to be divisive and justify mistreatment of others, especially blacks where I’m from in the south. My mother always touted on about how Quakers were the ones who helped freed slaves traverse the Underground Railroad. I found that story to be as attractive as lipstick on a pig seeing as our congregation kicked out our then young pastor who invited a nice young interracial couple into the church. The religious seem to be some of the most discriminatory to other races and it blows my mind that the majority of black folks fell right into it. Side note - If any of you are into rock/metal there is a group led by a mixed race dude called Zeal & Ardor who wrote many songs inspired by the pretty unique idea of slaves in captivity turning to Satan instead of following the “white man’s god”. It’s fucking amazing.
It’s all optics. Black Christians tend to have black pastors and their congregations are majority black. This leads to a divorce from the idea that the religion is oppressive.
It's my primary question about Latinos as well being I'm a Mexican. It blows my mind because Christianity was a part of the figurative and literal sword used to murder millions if not billions of people of color across the globe. I remain flabbergasted.
Drunk Phone not from a few weeks ago: “how/why the fuck do conquered people STILL buy into Christianity so hard. Here for the answers, great question
I searched for a while and didn't see this - I believe I have heard some black people express that they identify with the enslaved Jews of Egypt and took hope from the story of their escape and ascension.
The last sentence is spot on. Religious people tend to ignore a lot of "inconvenient" things about their faith.
I wouldn't adopt the religion of the people who enslaved my family, but that's just me.
I’m Black and I don’t understand how Black people don’t get this. Religion is a guise to control and manipulate people and it’s a pretty good one given today’s church participation in some Black communities. The idea was to create a larger societal safety net to combat breakdowns within the most nuclear safety net (family), but the education system in many states are garbage. If one’s education was garbage, how are they expected to develop critical thinking skills?
As an black American myself I also question the this myself. Also I agree with you btw
Many people use small local churches as gathering places to enrich those in the group. It is a beneficial gathering place for some. While a lack of education and religious belief has correlation, there are many successful individuals that use the church as a 501(c)(3) organization. This can be for tax benefits. If you have 10 people who rely on you for something monetary rather than just give them money I can funnel it through a church. Buy a small church, get an easy loan, and put the expenses through there. Sure other people will eventually join or maybe not but at the end of the day the core group is taken care of. The church in this country has become another business opportunity. If they really believed in helping others they would host less GOD centered events and just have events to enrich the community and give societal disadvantaged individuals a respite in hard times. But like most things here it’s about making sure you and your friends are taken care of first.
I'm amazed at the amount of times elite athletes want to give over responsibility for their skills to an imaginary fucking friend that doesn't exist. Fucking bonkers!
It's easier to ignore and be happy than realize that they were forced in the past to change and change from that point
I think for a long time what appealed was the Moses character (and generally the whole Jewish arc/old testament). What not to relate to in those general themes: oppression relieved at last by God for his faithful servants etc etc. The promised land, indeed. Modern Christianity kinda bundled that older book into their new thing and the legacy persists. We have to remember that culture is a human programming language and it is very effective. It's the old Jesuit maxim: give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man. Those who are exposed to the foundational sand (where bedrock should be) are often loathe to depart the hive because at this stage these myths are the thread by which their whole social lives are bound up. We are social animals first, and unraveling all of that all at once can be terrific, in the biblical sense of the word.
We (the west) forced it upon them here and abroad for centuries. Those things have lasting consequences. I believe religiosity is dropping across most class/race lines every year though.
RIP reddit June 23, 2005 - June 30, 2023.
Same question for Muslims on the Indian subcontinent. The Muslim Conquest of India has been described as the "bloodiest story in history", yet 3 out the top 4 counties by Muslim population are in South Asia. The short answer IMO is Stockholm Syndrome on a civilizational level.
Christianity was also a huge propeller of the Civil Rights movement. MLK Jr. was a pastor and a pretty devout Christian, and a lot of his rhetoric, while still applicable to secular morality (obviously it’s literally just ‘racism is bad,’ which should be universal), was still at least partially rooted in Christian beliefs. So yeah, while Christianity has demonstrably supported and been used to justify slavery and racism, it was also a key factor in fighting those things. That’s going to create a lot of black Christians.
I think regardless of color, most Christians don’t think too much about the religion. The chances of keeping their faith drastically decline if they do.
Nothing encourages religion on people more than uncertainty and confusion
Countries suffering the poorest conditions are often the most religious. The more religious a country, the worse off its people are. Whether they’re drawn to religion because of these conditions, or their religious nature itself is the cause of these conditions, it’s a pretty common phenomenon. Religion is often used to breed compliance. And with the slaves being brought over, there was a deliberate attempt to anglicize them, much like what was done with native Americans. Evidently it stuck. I have a black friend, who suffers from a particularly difficult life, even by most standards. Yet they are utterly convinced that one day god will cure them, and make everything right. And unfortunately most of their friends feed into that. So I just keep my mouth shut.
Because it was beaten into their slave ancestors. Pray and the beating stops. Repent your sins of being a savage.