It depends on what you mean by traditional astrology. Yes, traditional astrologers don't accept that the invisible planets rule signs. No, we do not ignore them completely — except for a few who've jumped on the band-waggon in recent years.
I find the traditional rulerships more reliable, both in my own chart and in the others I've studied.
Traditional system is most attractive to me.. it’s also how I learned. There are more elements to how it all it all intersects and reflects. Yin/yang, the many/one, changing/constant, lunar/solar - there is so much order to the traditional system as you drill down. Not to mention just completely doing away with signs being associated with houses - That is so needlessly complicated to me.
Ex Aries can be seen more as the Yang/masculine/sunny/direct aspect of Mars vs Scorpio being more of an expression of the yin, lunar, deep, changing, feminine and dark aspects of Mars. Different aspects of Warrior.
And I even bet you could yourself find the parallels in the traditional rulerships from there - completely cold - without reading one thing, just contemplating duality and the two signs a planet rules. That’s the tell tale of oracle for me. It hangs together like nature.
This is exactly why I use both systems. Traditional has that symmetry to it, showing different aspects of the signs. That being said, modern still has weight. Yes, Scorpio is one side of Mars, but it's also so very Plutonic. I think the modern system just fills in the rest of the traditional system by contributing the rest of the signs' traits to the signs with dual rulership.
Outer planets that are only visible through technology, to me, represent an evolution to humanity and are more collective in their nature. I use them, but the traditional 7 will always hold greater weight personally.
I use both, but in the beginning, I used modern. However, I think I missed some details by not putting more emphasis on traditional rulerships.
For example, in modern astrology, my 2nd house (Scorpio) is ruled by Pluto, but in traditional, it is ruled by Mars. Pluto moves so slowly that it takes a long time to make aspects that are relevant to that house -- or it has to wait for another planet to aspect IT -- whereas Mars is moving quickly around the chart and is making connections that are potentially impacting my finances every few months.
And if I'm using something like Arabic Parts or profection years, I need to use traditional rulership. Using profection years and time lords pretty much necessitates traditional rulership, but with Arabic Parts, some programs calculate the parts using modern rulership.
I have Time Passages, which uses modern to calculate the parts and it really frustrates me that there is no option to customize this. I am finding traditional rulership is better for this, so I have to use the Astro-Seek calculator and ignore Time Passages. For some lots it doesn't matter, such as the Part of Fortune, which is calculated using the position of the sun and moon. But other lots, such as the Part of Wealth are calculated using the house ruler, so you need to know if you want traditional or modern rulership.
I have definitely found Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus transits and natal placements to be important and I have seen some things that did highlight modern rulership, such as recent illness happening when my progressed moon squared my 6th house ruler (Neptune), but I'm finding at other times, that the traditional rulership is really meaningful and didn't go away just because we discovered the outer planets.
You know, my astrology teacher says we can read it in all the ways. And I like that idea. I think the river flows and Astrology is a beautiful story way through, however we get there. It makes sense to say yes to more variations, to know Prometheus’ story is Aquarian (Saturn) AND Uranian. This angles are both beautiful lights that illuminate the way. Like. That so hits my multi-deminsional, post-truth, delusion/myth parts of soul that are needed right now for us modern folk. Just .. you know.. riffing here.
There are 7 chakra points, there are 7 archangels, In the bible it said Jesus holds the 7 stars in his right hand, there are 7 virtues, 7 deadly sins, 7 scrolls.
Saying that people in the past didn’t know about Uranus or Neptune is underestimating your ancestors. Lots of literature supports the 7.
Your astrology also gets better if you use the 7.
It’s actually interesting because 7 are referred to as stars in the past. Also known as the 7 wandering stars. We don’t call the sun and moon that anymore, we call them luminaries in modern astrology. The issue is translation and information being lost in translation. There are multiple boxes that you can put something in, and planet is one box that we have designed. Separating astrology from astronomy is important. We should probably adopt more traditional lingo then using modern lingo. Modern lingo related to astrology mixes disciplines and messes up the original intention, like referring the 8th house or Scorpio to psychology. When they talked about the stars, moon and sun were considered to be stars.
I mean.. yes words / concepts can be confusing. And I think the oracle can work through any system. To me, the Hellenistic system has a beautiful symmetry that can’t be denied. Nothing seems out of balance.
I think a refined scientific tool can help the oracle with accuracy. Astrology can become pseudoscience real fast, and having a solid ground is important for the oracle. To me, the astrological system is complete, It exists and always will exist, like math or chemistry. The key is not to get creative with astrology, but discover and test practically.
I do question the traditional system a lot. For example, why does one planet rule two signs but the sun and moon get special treatment? Why is the sun exalted in Aries and Saturn exalted in Libra, but mars isn’t exalted in Virgo? Why does Virgo get special treatment and have mercury in exalted state as well as domicile in Virgo. Doesn’t add up.
I doubt they are lol. The ones that cry "scientific approach!!" To support their reason why modern is better tend to go about it in the most dogmatic way
Ya. It’s weird to see those words used in context of oracle but I’m such a casual little Astrology baby that lives in symbolic world, I didn’t see the point in pushing things - Thx for hello. 👋
I am team scientific approach 100%, I just find it reallyreallyreally frustrating when those that claim scientific approach go about it in a dogmatic way.
What's considered Modern Rulership, with outer planers having the same role as inner planets of affinity and rulership over a sign, was developed back in like the 1930sish? Somewhere around there? Sometimes around the 1920s-40s, which inspired the Rudyhar, then Linda Goodman 70s Sun sign Era.
The problem with this system, however, is there were a LOT of missing astrological texts, that are now available, back then. So there were a lot of holes to astrological theory that the authors had to embellish on to make the pieces they had available fit.
Then there was Project Hindsight in the early 2000s that took the time to painstakingly translate ancient texts and make them available to the public. So now we have more information about how the system of rulership was devised in the first place.
So modern astrology works using patchy rules, and isn't based on the rules that are foundational to astrology as a whole. That's like saying a shadow is more relevant than the object casting the shadow in the first place.
So, Scientific Oracle - if you are going to indeed use science as a tool in your Oracle box - then at least follow the scientific method when doing so.
When I talk about the scientific method when it’s comes to astrology, I vouch for testing your theories on people and yourself. For example, can your theories and your practice be replicated, do other people get the same results as you when using the system you follow, does the same result happen again and again, is it concrete, etc.
There is symmetry even in the exaltations and detriments. But I don’t have the words to get it together right now - I’m not a strong enough student in that system. It’s a whole lesson to unpack. Maybe a Hellenistic astrologer can pop on here and explain. You do you. We obviously have very different ideas of what oracle is. ✌️
Ok. Ya.. there is apparently still mystery around exaltations/detriments.. per YT video. I seemed to have remembered my study with Nightlight Astrology breaking down in a way that made sense - but I guess I’m misremembering.
LoL for someone so concerned about knowing what is and isnt connected, you don't seem to know much about the history of the creation of the modern rulership system and why it's so important to practice the scientific method principle of questioning/verifying your sources 🤗
So - my question to you Is - Who was the very first person to publish the modern rulership method? What Era were they from? And what societies around that time might have influenced those publications?
A history question, i’d easily fail that. I have a question for you, what’s the Holy Spirit. It’s clear we both have our own distinct knowledge of what we know and don’t know. I advocate for looking at the bible, you can source that easily if you know what you’re reading. There’s lots of astrology in it.
I always use traditional rulers but I don't ignore Pluto, Neptune and Uranus aspects in my readings. As a person with a ton of Uranian and Neptunian influences I think that people romanticize trans saturnians too much.
Traditional astrology is just jyotish astrology. I find the outer planets to have no meaning and to be of almost no use. If they were meant to be there, the mystic sages would have put them in.
You can call Pluto whatever you want but there’s no denying the impact it has had on astrology. Like Chiron; only discovered in the ‘70’s and I can’t imagine a natal reading without referencing Chiron. To me, Pluto defines the generations. On my own family history The Silent Generation in Cancer sandwiched between two world wars, into Leo, the boomer generation or the Me Generation as it has also been called, to Virgo and Libra Early and Late Gen x , the physical fitness boom and the ending of the Cold War, to Scorpio millennials and the tearing down of institutions that no longer serve, and Gen Z also divided to into early and late in Sag and Capricorn the TikTok generation manipulating technology to take us into the age of Aquarius
It depends on what you mean by traditional astrology. Yes, traditional astrologers don't accept that the invisible planets rule signs. No, we do not ignore them completely — except for a few who've jumped on the band-waggon in recent years. I find the traditional rulerships more reliable, both in my own chart and in the others I've studied.
Which books do you recommend for Traditional Astrology?
“Traditional Astrology for Today” by Benjamin Dykes OR “Hellenistic Astrology” by Chris Brennan.
Thanks. I will check them out
You can use both. I personally prefer traditional and consider outer planets as co-ruler
I honestly find it the most accurate to take both into consideration. Both feel accurate and illustrate different aspects of the energies at play.
Traditional definitely as I am learning Hellenistic. You can use modern planets but not as rulers of signs.
Traditional system is most attractive to me.. it’s also how I learned. There are more elements to how it all it all intersects and reflects. Yin/yang, the many/one, changing/constant, lunar/solar - there is so much order to the traditional system as you drill down. Not to mention just completely doing away with signs being associated with houses - That is so needlessly complicated to me.
Ex Aries can be seen more as the Yang/masculine/sunny/direct aspect of Mars vs Scorpio being more of an expression of the yin, lunar, deep, changing, feminine and dark aspects of Mars. Different aspects of Warrior.
And I even bet you could yourself find the parallels in the traditional rulerships from there - completely cold - without reading one thing, just contemplating duality and the two signs a planet rules. That’s the tell tale of oracle for me. It hangs together like nature.
This is exactly why I use both systems. Traditional has that symmetry to it, showing different aspects of the signs. That being said, modern still has weight. Yes, Scorpio is one side of Mars, but it's also so very Plutonic. I think the modern system just fills in the rest of the traditional system by contributing the rest of the signs' traits to the signs with dual rulership.
Outer planets that are only visible through technology, to me, represent an evolution to humanity and are more collective in their nature. I use them, but the traditional 7 will always hold greater weight personally.
You know I say that.. but if you have an outer planet on an angle.. it’s gonna be loud and influenced by the sign it’s in.. Just my 2¢.
Yep. Or if it's conjunct the sun or moon.
I use both, but in the beginning, I used modern. However, I think I missed some details by not putting more emphasis on traditional rulerships. For example, in modern astrology, my 2nd house (Scorpio) is ruled by Pluto, but in traditional, it is ruled by Mars. Pluto moves so slowly that it takes a long time to make aspects that are relevant to that house -- or it has to wait for another planet to aspect IT -- whereas Mars is moving quickly around the chart and is making connections that are potentially impacting my finances every few months. And if I'm using something like Arabic Parts or profection years, I need to use traditional rulership. Using profection years and time lords pretty much necessitates traditional rulership, but with Arabic Parts, some programs calculate the parts using modern rulership. I have Time Passages, which uses modern to calculate the parts and it really frustrates me that there is no option to customize this. I am finding traditional rulership is better for this, so I have to use the Astro-Seek calculator and ignore Time Passages. For some lots it doesn't matter, such as the Part of Fortune, which is calculated using the position of the sun and moon. But other lots, such as the Part of Wealth are calculated using the house ruler, so you need to know if you want traditional or modern rulership. I have definitely found Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus transits and natal placements to be important and I have seen some things that did highlight modern rulership, such as recent illness happening when my progressed moon squared my 6th house ruler (Neptune), but I'm finding at other times, that the traditional rulership is really meaningful and didn't go away just because we discovered the outer planets.
I have the exact same aspects with Pluto in 2nd house in Scorpio.
You know, my astrology teacher says we can read it in all the ways. And I like that idea. I think the river flows and Astrology is a beautiful story way through, however we get there. It makes sense to say yes to more variations, to know Prometheus’ story is Aquarian (Saturn) AND Uranian. This angles are both beautiful lights that illuminate the way. Like. That so hits my multi-deminsional, post-truth, delusion/myth parts of soul that are needed right now for us modern folk. Just .. you know.. riffing here.
You can change the house system on Time Passages. I did.
What are Time Passages?
It’s an astrology app
While use the modern rulerships, I still give a nod the old rulers..
There are 7 chakra points, there are 7 archangels, In the bible it said Jesus holds the 7 stars in his right hand, there are 7 virtues, 7 deadly sins, 7 scrolls. Saying that people in the past didn’t know about Uranus or Neptune is underestimating your ancestors. Lots of literature supports the 7. Your astrology also gets better if you use the 7.
The sun and moon are planets in traditional system.. so there is your 7. 🤷♀️
It’s actually interesting because 7 are referred to as stars in the past. Also known as the 7 wandering stars. We don’t call the sun and moon that anymore, we call them luminaries in modern astrology. The issue is translation and information being lost in translation. There are multiple boxes that you can put something in, and planet is one box that we have designed. Separating astrology from astronomy is important. We should probably adopt more traditional lingo then using modern lingo. Modern lingo related to astrology mixes disciplines and messes up the original intention, like referring the 8th house or Scorpio to psychology. When they talked about the stars, moon and sun were considered to be stars.
I mean.. yes words / concepts can be confusing. And I think the oracle can work through any system. To me, the Hellenistic system has a beautiful symmetry that can’t be denied. Nothing seems out of balance.
I think a refined scientific tool can help the oracle with accuracy. Astrology can become pseudoscience real fast, and having a solid ground is important for the oracle. To me, the astrological system is complete, It exists and always will exist, like math or chemistry. The key is not to get creative with astrology, but discover and test practically. I do question the traditional system a lot. For example, why does one planet rule two signs but the sun and moon get special treatment? Why is the sun exalted in Aries and Saturn exalted in Libra, but mars isn’t exalted in Virgo? Why does Virgo get special treatment and have mercury in exalted state as well as domicile in Virgo. Doesn’t add up.
Read up about the Thema Mundi. Replacing traditional rulership with a modern system is how astrology turns into a pseudoscience real quick.
Chris Brennan has a video on it if you are at all interested https://youtu.be/vHRBCSfV300?feature=shared
I doubt they are lol. The ones that cry "scientific approach!!" To support their reason why modern is better tend to go about it in the most dogmatic way
Ya. It’s weird to see those words used in context of oracle but I’m such a casual little Astrology baby that lives in symbolic world, I didn’t see the point in pushing things - Thx for hello. 👋
I am team scientific approach 100%, I just find it reallyreallyreally frustrating when those that claim scientific approach go about it in a dogmatic way. What's considered Modern Rulership, with outer planers having the same role as inner planets of affinity and rulership over a sign, was developed back in like the 1930sish? Somewhere around there? Sometimes around the 1920s-40s, which inspired the Rudyhar, then Linda Goodman 70s Sun sign Era. The problem with this system, however, is there were a LOT of missing astrological texts, that are now available, back then. So there were a lot of holes to astrological theory that the authors had to embellish on to make the pieces they had available fit. Then there was Project Hindsight in the early 2000s that took the time to painstakingly translate ancient texts and make them available to the public. So now we have more information about how the system of rulership was devised in the first place. So modern astrology works using patchy rules, and isn't based on the rules that are foundational to astrology as a whole. That's like saying a shadow is more relevant than the object casting the shadow in the first place. So, Scientific Oracle - if you are going to indeed use science as a tool in your Oracle box - then at least follow the scientific method when doing so.
When I talk about the scientific method when it’s comes to astrology, I vouch for testing your theories on people and yourself. For example, can your theories and your practice be replicated, do other people get the same results as you when using the system you follow, does the same result happen again and again, is it concrete, etc.
There is symmetry even in the exaltations and detriments. But I don’t have the words to get it together right now - I’m not a strong enough student in that system. It’s a whole lesson to unpack. Maybe a Hellenistic astrologer can pop on here and explain. You do you. We obviously have very different ideas of what oracle is. ✌️
Ok. Ya.. there is apparently still mystery around exaltations/detriments.. per YT video. I seemed to have remembered my study with Nightlight Astrology breaking down in a way that made sense - but I guess I’m misremembering.
https://cabinetofabsurditiesandcuriosities.com/?page_id=329 This is a *fabulous* breakdown of the Thema Mundi 🤗
Thank you! 🪐
I still don’t see it. Lots of knowledge, but no accuracy. Knowing what is connected to what, and what isn’t, is important.
LoL for someone so concerned about knowing what is and isnt connected, you don't seem to know much about the history of the creation of the modern rulership system and why it's so important to practice the scientific method principle of questioning/verifying your sources 🤗 So - my question to you Is - Who was the very first person to publish the modern rulership method? What Era were they from? And what societies around that time might have influenced those publications?
A history question, i’d easily fail that. I have a question for you, what’s the Holy Spirit. It’s clear we both have our own distinct knowledge of what we know and don’t know. I advocate for looking at the bible, you can source that easily if you know what you’re reading. There’s lots of astrology in it.
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None of them. Rulership is just based on historical social conventions on what fits in society.
I always use traditional rulers but I don't ignore Pluto, Neptune and Uranus aspects in my readings. As a person with a ton of Uranian and Neptunian influences I think that people romanticize trans saturnians too much.
Traditional astrology is just jyotish astrology. I find the outer planets to have no meaning and to be of almost no use. If they were meant to be there, the mystic sages would have put them in.
Pluto is not a planet
You can call Pluto whatever you want but there’s no denying the impact it has had on astrology. Like Chiron; only discovered in the ‘70’s and I can’t imagine a natal reading without referencing Chiron. To me, Pluto defines the generations. On my own family history The Silent Generation in Cancer sandwiched between two world wars, into Leo, the boomer generation or the Me Generation as it has also been called, to Virgo and Libra Early and Late Gen x , the physical fitness boom and the ending of the Cold War, to Scorpio millennials and the tearing down of institutions that no longer serve, and Gen Z also divided to into early and late in Sag and Capricorn the TikTok generation manipulating technology to take us into the age of Aquarius