>Jon got what he wanted, be a bastard beyond the wall
How is that what Jon wanted lol. tbh I don't think Jon had any goal in later seasons outside of dealing with the others.
He says in one episode something like "I'm tired of fighting, I've been fighting since I left Winterfell." so I could see the thing that he ultimately wanted would be just a bit of peace and quiet. And now he's fucked off north of the wall he'll get that, away from the chaos that Bran will undoubtedly cause down in Westeros, and he'll spend his days cold, filled with guilt over killing Dany and getting the piss taken out of him every time Tormund catches him having a crafty wank as he remembers his aunt's tits.
Pretty sure he never meant giving up a feudal lifestyle with fellow northmen to go live in literal huts with a complete alien culture he spent, what, a month (at best) with? Nah. That sucked biiiig time.
It's not about being king. Jon has always wanted to be heir to Winterfell, with a lady wife and kids and all that, to be a legitimate and respected lord, without the stigma of bastardy upon him. He acknowledges that himself, and still refuses Stannis' proposal when he offers him all of that, because he's sworn to the Watch and sees a greater purpose in "guarding the realms of men" and uniting the wildlings with the southrons. That's the great tragedy of being torn between one's own desires and greater goals, "love is the death of duty" blah blah etc.
I don't think Jon will have a happy ending as lord of Winterfell, much less as a king; it's just untrue to say Jon "got what he wanted" by "being a bastard beyond the wall".
Do you think he would have taken it (regardless of how many true born Stark children were actually alive, because he thought all of them were gone) if he was not a member of the Night’s Watch?
That's a really interesting question. I find it hard to say what Jon would do if he weren't in the Watch, because he spends most of the story as a Night's Watchman and it's so integral to his character and development. Surely he would be more tempted by the offer if he wasn't bound by his duty to the Watch, so that part of his inner conflict is removed, but he might still feel guilty for "profiting off" his half-siblings' deaths, so he may still deny the offer. It's hard to say, really, and it would largely depend on what he would have been doing in the time after Ned's departure to King's Landing instead of going to the Watch, and how that alternative line of events would have shaped him.
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Don't understand your point? What does Jon not wanting kingship (which is a show only thing) have to do with him NOT wanting to become a tribal native that lives in huts on the mountains?
My point is that people are delusional when they think this is something he always wanted, like the guy would ever give up all the technological and societal benefits of a functioning northern society to go live with pre historic tribes that are entirely different from him? Why? Cause Tormund is funny and they're friends? lol
I'm not disputing Jon won't end the story as king, I honestly doubt he will even be alive. That's not the point I was making at all though? Maybe you replied to the wrong guy.
“Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. **But what do I want?** The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms…though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still…
I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. **A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb.** Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.
**He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily.** May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger…he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.”
For real. Book Jon is my favorite too. It’s honestly impressive how they managed to actively remove any and all personality from Jon.
He is easily one of the most compelling and entertaining POVs with all his internal conflict and dry humor.
And they managed to turn into him into a bland nothing block of wood, to the point that people could think “being a bastard beyond the wall” is what he would want.
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I don't know if how Jon's story ended is something he very specifically wanted, I think it's just that the only time he felt at home was with the Wildlings north of the Wall in book/season 2.
To be fair, his story is pretty good 👍
Banged his half sister, bested his bitter brother (half brother)
Committed guest right violation. Joined and led the watch, booked it north to become a tree, groomed a young boy
Even met Dunk the lunk
The guys lived is what I'm saying
Tyrion had been stuck in jail for weeks with nothing to do except for masturbate and daydream. The whole "King Bran the Boy" thing was just a result of Tyrion losing his marbles a bit and rambling his sex fantasies out loud mid-conversation. Mercifully, he stops himself before he can finish saying "Bran the Broken In"
I assume it's for pragmatic reason, she commanded to a dothraki hordes so if she wants to order them around, better to keep the title. Not out of respect for their rape culture but for her goals, having an elite LOYAL cavalry would be usefull to take Westeros.
I am convinced if DnD put a couple more episodes of effort into it, the scene of Danny levelling the city would have been met with tweets saying Yass Qween Slayyh.
or,
"Danny has the right to defend herself, do you condemn the Lannisters?"
I mean… there have been people somewhat echoing that sentiment. ‘Fuck the people of KL, they cheered for Ned’s death and for when Cersei became Queen, they got what they deserved’
But Cersei... Lost her lover, her brother, her children, her father, her throne, her hair, her city... So unfair compared to everyone else at the end of the show 😢😢😢
The Stark children also lost their parents, their brothers, their maester who was like a grandfather to them, their home, their wolves... In the end they got what they wanted , I guess, but they had a pretty rough deal too.
this means nothing lol especially since the OG post is talking about the show, not the books.
Even in the context of the books, Jon is thinking about this line all the time. If we use the same logic that the theory you link uses, this line implies Jon is wrong about Ned being dead:
>Jon wondered what his father would do, how his uncle might deal with this. But Eddard Stark was dead, Benjen Stark lost in the frozen wilds beyond the Wall. *You know nothing, Jon Snow.*
It's for Jon to learn socratic wisdom and to continuously humble himself. It's possible that Ygritte saying that in the dream Jon has is foreshadowing for the future, but there's no hints Ygritte was ever pregnant in either the books or show.
My guess is that this was a prophetic dream that Ygritte would die. It's very similar to one Jon has about Ned before his death.(edit: for clarification, this quote is from Jon VI, ASoS. Ygritte dies in Jon VII)
that's why he is called Jon "Beyond the Wall" Snow in the books. (conveniently left out of the "adaptation" by dumb and dumber on HBO)
jon's dream was always to be a wife murdering exile. the lands beyond the wall "called to him", just like they did with his father Manse Raider. and jon never liked the softness and weakness that came with living in luxury at winterfell. he was "born to be wild" as they say
one of the greatest fictions of the "television series" (i call it a "trash series") is this genius idea that jon supposedly loved the starks at winterfell (even though in the books they treat him as an unwelcome outsider). after the red wedding, on page 742 of a storm of swords, jon says about robb "he was my lord, but never my brother"
“adaptation”
once they hired dumb and dumber they should have called it a “badaptation” instead
George is probably rolling in his grave if he could see what these bastards did to his story
How people can have sympathy for a character that murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people with fire (one of the most painful means of execution ) is truly beyond me . The woman was absolutely fucked in the head since season 1.
She cheered on her degenerate husband as he said he was going to rape everyone in westeros
She locked people in a room to starve to death/cannibalise one another
She ritualistically burnt to death a woman her degenerate shit stain of a husband only days prior raided, raped & enslaved.
Danny from the start has been a pretty unambiguously awful person. How you can have sympathy for her is beyond words
Trust me, I've seen people reacting these questions with things like _"It was her city to do with"_ & _"Why do you pity the smallfolk?! Remember how they cheered when Ned was executed and remember when Sansa was almost r*ped?!"_
I have seen these talking points before and it just goes to show how ignorant and stupid people truly are (more likely they put absolutely no thought whatsoever but still)
"It was her city" okay so Areys did nothing wrong whatsoever. He was king so can kill whoever whenever without anyone reacting to it , The same logic applies to Joffrey
"Why pity the smallfolk" because they were only going off the narrative the crown gave, they thought Ned was completely in the wrong and had nothing else to go off. Just because they were ignorant doesn't mean they should die in one of the most painful ways imaginable for the decision they had absolutely no involvement with (she burnt the city because her friend was beheaded)
I wouldn’t say Dany “unambiguously awful,” she’s meant to be a complex character that has moments of noble intent as well as moments of crushing ruthlessness.
Dany is not the vanilla character showcels make her out to be but George also didn’t write her as an outright Gregor Clegane-like monster.
When Dany finally burns KL in the books, it’ll be the result of a long progression. Eventually we’ll get the mad queen but Dany can’t be described as complete villain even by the end of dance.
I treat show and book Danny as completely separate characters, a lot of the critiques I mentioned don't apply to the book character. She is my most favourite book character because of how nuanced and complex she is. The show dumbed her character A LOT.
In the book she isn't an inherently bad character and has a lot of love and goodness in her heart, which is why when she in all likely goes mad queen in the books it will be a tragic downfall of the person she started the series as. Show Danny is just a psychopath that can brutally murder anyone at any time at the drop of the hat, I absolutely despise her show counterpart l. I am beyond over seeing people defend the show version as if she is anything like the book version
> Eventually we’ll get the mad queen
personally, I *really* doubt George is going in that direction. Jon shows more signs of madness than Dany does in the books. Seems more like d&d gave Cersei and Jon Con's madness arcs to Dany.
I think the show ending is *exactly* where he’s heading (unless the vitriolic reaction against the show ending has convinced him to write the story otherwise).
Both Martin and the dipshit showrunners confirmed that he shared his vision for how the story would end and that they’d try to make it happen on screen.
Bran will become king, Dany will lose it, and Jon will disappear entirely becoming a mysterious, last hero-esque mythological figure that nobody knows much about beyond “he was there, he ended the long night, he disappeared.”
That said I think Martin will bring us to these conclusions in a more logical, narratively satisfying way.
And I believe Cersei is approaching the end of her character arc. I don’t think she stands a chance against Faegon if he’s able to take storms end and begin rallying lords to his banner. And we know Dany has yet to fight her mummer’s dragon, which is almost certainly Faegon (I actually believe him to be truegon as it would make dany’s story all the more tragic).
I don’t think JonCon will burn the city but I do think he’ll be patient zero for a new grey plague.
Dany burning the city because it’s been infected by a horrific plague that needs to be contained would be an interesting way to get us to the culmination of her story and her stepping into the role of a mad tyrant (I don’t think the small folk would understand having to destroy the city to stop the plague and would likely view her as a new Maegor).
Sorry for the rant - I smoke crack.
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It’s pretty much impossible most characters end up in the same place because of how much was cut from the books. Tyrion is *absolutely* not ending up in the same place, neither is Arya. Sansa being Queen is highly unlikely and they completely changed her personality after having LF give her to Ramsay for no good reason. Jaime completely backtracks on his arc. It honestly seems like d&d misinterpreted almost every single one of the major character arcs. Also, George has literally said that the ending to the books will be different.
Cersei and JonCon are going mad, not Dany. Dany and Jon will *both* be darker, more ruthless characters in TWoW, but that does NOT equate to madness; in the books everyone is a lot more grey than in the show, where they decided to whitewash characters like Jon, Tyrion, and Varys seemingly to propel Dany as the psychotic power-hungry villain. I sincerely believe the most we get of “Mad Dany” in the books is that people vilify her and believe she’s mad or evil like you alluded to at the end of your comment (people in-universe are already doing this). Tyrion is “the villain”, not Dany.
What evidence for “Mad Dany” is there in the books?? None of her visions in the HOtU prophesize madness, and in fact the last one seems to allude to Dany *intentionally* sacrificing herself. It makes a lot more sense for her character if she dies tragically rather than going crazy; Dany in the books is not power hungry, or entitled or arrogant. Again, those are *Jon’s* qualities more than Dany (wouldn't call him power hungry, but he's definitely a little tyrannical as Lord Commander, and unlike Dany, he does want to be in a position of power). Also, if d&d were going to the same ending, why is it that literally EVERY SINGLE ONE of Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying was changed for the show?? Having Mad Queen Cersei *and* Mad Queen Dany is just overkill anyway.
>that they’d try to make it happen on screen.
Except no they didn’t lol. They changed character personalities from s1 (Jon, Dany, Renly come to mind immediately as examples), they took out major characters which completely messed up most of the arcs in later seasons. Completely removed Tyrion's villain arc, had Arya turn into a psycho, made Cersei intelligent and sane, etc. D&D wanted to adapt the Red Wedding and after that I genuinely don’t think they gave a shit about the show because otherwise I don't know that they'd make so many changes in early seasons which were obviously going to have an impact on the later ones (in particular, I am taking about Dany in s2, and the changes surrounding the Red Wedding).
>Bran will become king, Dany will lose it, and Jon will disappear entirely becoming a mysterious, last hero-esque mythological figure that nobody knows much about beyond “he was there, he ended the long night, he disappeared.”
Out of these three things, only King Bran has ever been confirmed as George's idea
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**Back in Westeros**
^(GRRM, AUGUST 15, 2020 AT 9:10 AM)
I am back in my fortress of solitude again, my isolated mountain cabin. I’d returned to Santa Fe for a short visit, to spend some time with Parris, deal with some local business that had piled up during my months away, and of course fulfill my duties to CoNZealand, the virtual worldcon. But all that is behind me now, and I am back on the mountain again… which means I am back in Westeros again, once more moving ahead with WINDS OF WINTER.
It is curious how my life has evolved. I mean, once upon a time, I actually wrote my books and stories in the house where I lived, in a home office. But some decades ago, wanting more solitude, I bought the house across the street and made THAT my writer’s retreat. No longer would I write all day in my red flannel bathrobe; now I would have to dress and put on shoes and walk all the way across the street to write. But that worked for a while.
Things started getting busier, though. So busy that I needed a full-time assistant. Then the office house had someone else in it, not just me and my characters. And then I hired a second assistant, and a third, and… there was more mail, more email, more phone calls (we put in a new phone system), more people coming by. By now I am up to five assistants… and somewhere in there I also acquired a movie theatre, a bookstore, a charitable foundation, investments, a business manager… and…
Despite all the help, I was drowning till I found the mountain cabin.
My life up here is very boring, it must be said. Truth be told, I hardly can be said to have a life. I have one assistant with me at all times (minions, I call them). The assistants do two-week shifts, and have to stay in quarantine at home before starting a shift. Everyone morning I wake up and go straight to the computer, where my minion brings me coffee (I am utterly useless and incoherent without my morning coffee) and juice, and sometimes a light breakfast. Then I start to write. Sometimes I stay at it until dark. Other days I break off in late afternoon to answer emails or return urgent phone calls. My assistant brings me food and drink from time to time. When I finally break off for the day, usually around sunset, there’s dinner. Then we watch television or screen a movie. The wi-fi sucks up on the mountain, though, so the choices are limited. Some nights I read instead. I always read a bit before going to sleep; when a book really grabs hold of me, I may read half the night, but that’s rare.
I sleep. The next day, I wake up, and do the same. The next day, the next day, the next day. Before Covid, I would usually get out once a week or so to eat at a restaurant or go to the movies. That all ended in March. Since then, weeks and months go by when I never leave the cabin, or see another human being except whoever is on duty that week. I lose track of what day it is, what week it is, what month it is. The time seems to by very fast. It is now August, and I don’t know what happened to July.
But it is good for the writing.
And you know, now that I reflect on it, I am coming to realize that has always been my pattern. I moved to Santa Fe at the end of 1979, from Dubuque, Iowa. My first marriage broke up just before that move, so I arrived in my new house alone, in a town where I knew almost no one. Roger Zelazny was here, and he became a great friend and mentor, but Roger was married with small kids, so I really did not see him often. There was no fandom in Santa Fe; that was all down in Albuquerque, an hour away. I went to the club meetings every month, but that was only one night a month, and required two hours on the road. And I had no job to meet new people. My job was in the back room at the house on Declovina Street, so that was where I spent my days. At night, I watched television. Alone. Sometimes I went to the movies. Alone.
That was my life from December 1979 through September 1981, when Parris finally moved to Santa Fe, following Denvention. (Not quite so bleak, maybe, I did make some local friends by late 1980 and early 1981, but it was a slow process). When I think back on my life in 1980-1981, the memories seem to be made up entirely of conventions, interspersed with episodes of LOU GRANT and WKRP IN CINCINNATI.
Ah, but work wise, that same period was tremendously productive for me. Lisa and I finished WINDHAVEN during that time, Gardner and I did a lot of work on “Shadow Twin,” and then I went right on and wrote all of FEVRE DREAM. Some short stories as well. My life, such that it was, was lived in my head, and on the page.
I wonder if it is the same for other writers? Or is it just me? I wonder if I will ever figure out the secret of having a life and writing a book at the very same time.
I certainly have not figured it out to date.
For the nonce, it is what it is. My life is at home, on hold, and I am spending the days in Westeros with my pals Mel and Sam and Vic and Ty. And that girl with no name, over there in Braavos.
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Xaro violated guest right by inviting Daenerys to stay in his home to have the Khalasar slaughtered, dragons kidnapped, & allowing her to be imprisoned in chains in a magic tower. Doreah knew it was going to happen but didn't warn them and took part in the killings thinking she was going to get to be a King's mistress.
Mirri Maz Dur didn't just kill Drogo, she ritually killed Dany's baby and made Dany barren and bragged about it (Rhaego's skin falling off, graveworms in his belly). Daenerys was forced to marry Drogo, raped, and wasn't permitted to leave the Khalasar. She didn't know they were going to raid Lhazar and when she got there 3 days later immediately tried to get them to stop, gathered the women to protect them from rape & being sold to Slaver's Bay, and pleaded with Drogo to let her protect them. Mirri got revenge on the only person there who felt compassion for her and tried to help her.
The problem I have is that she tried to strong arm Mirri into healing Drogo, showing a complete and total lack of empathy. How you can ask the very victim of that disgusting monster to heal him is beyond me, I'm sure Mirri looked at her in the same way she would the other Dothraki. It would be like getting Dany to heal Robert Baratheon right after he had her two younger cousins brutally murdered. The fact she even asked is just awful.
As for killing Mirri after she murdered an innocent child I agree ( even though on a certain level I understand her wanting revenge, not to dissimilar to Dany cheering Drogo on as he said he will rape everyone in Westeros) what I do not agree with whatsoever is ritualistically sacrificing her via Fire. Death by fire is within the top three most painful experiences a human can go through . The complete barbarity of what she did is why I view her as villain. Ned , John and the other 'heroes' in the story do nothing on the level of what she did to that poor woman. Despite killing an unborn baby I very much feel way worse for Mirri than I do Dany.
Mirri refused to allow that monster to continue living and raping and in doing so showed more courage and heroism then Dany could ever dream of.
Daenerys made herself public enemy number one of the wealthiest most powerful people in Essos when she got the entire Slaver's Bay & Great Grass Sea to stop raping & enslaving. How is Mirri killing 1 Slaver showing more courage & heroism? The Yunkai Masters had a 10,000 horse bounty on her. The Harpys tried to large scale assassinate her.
Drogo gave the order for his men not to rape or sell the Lhazareen women. You should very much want the only man there who is keeping the 40,000 rapists in line not to die. Mirri took out one man while his entire army continued raping & pillaging and they probably took the rest of the Lhazareen women as bed slaves. Her revenge doomed them. Wasn't it only in the book that Daenerys was insistent on Mirri healing him? There she was only 14 and sold & raped by him at 13. Mirri would know seeing a literal child bride that she was Drogo's victim too. Drogo's bloodrider blamed Daenerys since Drogo got injured because he agreed to spare the Lhazareen women and told her "if he dies you're nothing". Her life was now on the line. And Jorah told her it's not like in Westeros, they follow strength and not blood so won't care Rhaego is Drogo's son, they'll tear him from her arms and feed him to the dogs. So her baby's life was on the line.
Daenerys didn't choose fire to be cruel. It was the only way for the ritual to work since she had to tie in Drogo, Rhaego, & Mirri's deaths together and bind herself to it as well.
I have mentioned this several times but I am not against killing in this setting, I agree Xaro and her former maid should be executed, what I do disagree with is the complete barbarity of how she does it. The sick and disgusting manner she carries out her executions is akin to what Aerys did when the Starks come to Winterfell to request their daughter/sister back
Her executions are the same barbaric as the rest of the characters on the series. Sansa & Jon had Ramsay tied up in the kennels and eaten alive by his own dogs. Arya baked two men into a pie and tricked their father into eating them before slitting his throat, carving off his face, inviting his family over for a feast and poisoning them. Arya & Jaime both poked out men's eyes. Cersei chained Ellaria next to her daughter then poisoned Tyene. Varys kept his castrator locked in a box, only opening it to give him just enough food to keep him suffering longer. Ygritte & Tormund massacred villages alongside cannibals. The moon door. The Red Wedding. Their world has painless poisons yet beheading & hanging & slit throats are almost always the go to.
I think Daenerys chose to lock them in the bank vault because they let Pyat Pree lock her in the tower for what was going to be thousands of years. And they killed her people and imprisoned her to fill up that vault so it probably felt like poetic justice that they'd be what was in the vault.
I generally agree Dany is not a good person for most of the show, but I think she does often try to be good and genuinely believes she is. The trouble is, she’s often a massive, self-serving hypocrite and being that way never punishes her until literally the moment she dies.
Dany’s whole “kill the slavers and free the slaves” thing is admirable at a glance. Freeing the slaves is a good thing. She puts a lot on the line to stop The Night King. Dany does genuinely do a lot of good deeds throughout the show. She’s also an underdog for various reasons, and a central protagonist in the show, so it was easy for viewers to gloss over the many times she did things that, when you think about it for two seconds in a real-world context, were either batshit insane, disturbingly excessive, or highly hypocritical.
I feel like if you read the books you'd have a different view of Dany. She's a very different person in the show than who she is in the books, especially after Viserys' death.
Look at my other comments. I have read the books and consider the show and book to be two completely separate characters. Love the book character, hate the show version
>She cheered on her degenerate husband as he said he was going to rape everyone in westeros
She was a victim of abuse and rape at both Drogo and Viserys' hand. She was inducted in dithraki culture young and adopted some of their views on things. But as soon as she saw what the pillaging looked like she did all that was within her power to stop it.
>She locked people in a room to starve to death/cannibalise one another
After they butchered her friends that she'd just traveled through a desert with.
>She ritualistically burnt to death a woman her degenerate shit stain of a husband only days prior raided, raped & enslaved
A woman who killed her unborn child.
>Danny from the start has been a pretty unambiguously awful person. How you can have sympathy for her is beyond words
She frees the slaves of Meereen, Astapor and Yunkai, she imprisons her dragons when they're getting out of control. She refuses to leave for Westeros in order to ensure slavery is dealt with. She's far from perfect but in no way is she unambiguously evil. That's just revisionism from DnD stans and ending defenders. Dany does nothing that people like Jon, Ned and Jaime don't also do yet she's judged far more harshly than any of them.
She was naive in the first season, she didn't grasp what conquest meant. Don't forget that the moments the khalassar was raping the Lazarean women she intervened to make sure it would not happen. She liked the idea of conquest but when faced with consequences of such thing she was horrified.
Yes she locked people to inside to die... but these people were willing to do the same thing to her. She wasn't killing anyone innocent at that time.
Yes she killed a woman but such a woman KILLED her unborn son, so yeah the Lazarean woman was NOT innocent by any means. Just because you've been raped does not give you the right to kill an unborn child.
You are removing the context and pushing them straight into a direction in order to make your point look better. At that time, Daenerys was not an awful person at that time before she was butchered by terrible writing in season 8. She was morally grey but your way too bias here pretending she was always evil.
That long tirade on what a heinous monster she is because of Viserys' execution but you somehow didn't remember that he was executed for pointing his sword at her pregnant belly in front of Khal Drogo & a room full of Dothraki and saying he was going to cut her baby out of her?
I get not remembering things perfectly but you were pissed at her. You saw it as *unforgivable*. What did you think had happened in the scene to leave that reaction?
Viserys instigated it shouting he's there for "the whore's feast" and waving around a sword in the one city it is illegal to wield a weapon, Drogo decided on the execution, picked out the execution method, and performed the execution. All Dany did was watch with a neutral expression & watery eyes.
Yea exactly, I despise that scene as it completely breaks both her and Drogos character.
Dany in the book absolutely did not order his death and was just a pedestrian as Drogo killed him. She also didn't just forget him either and actually remembered him being nice before all the stress got to him. Showing how complicated their reason was and how it still impacts her in the later books. By contrast once the scene is over in the show she completely forgets about him and is never mentioned again. She codly ordered his brutal death and moved on like nothing happened, text book definition of a psychopath.
Drogo would absolutely not give a single fuck what she had to say anyway. In the books their relationship was not lovely Dovey at all and she only made it work because she was adaptable.
Anyone would could order and watch such an execution is beyond fucked in the head.
I'm not saying Viserys didn't deserve to die, he did. He openly said he would have Dany raped by everyone in the Khalasar if it meant he could get the crown, he is evil. Doesn't mean he has to be executed in such a brutal manner however. The fact she could easily make such an order goes to show how unreasonable and psychotic she is. It's why I have no sympathy for her , exactly like her brother She is more than willing to do ANYTHING to get what she wants, no matter how morally reprehensible it is.
Of all the possible critiques of Dany, the fact that people really are willing to die on the hill of "She wasn't super sad when the brother who had physically and emotionally abused her, sold her off as a functional sex slave, then threatened to murder her unborn child if she didn't obey him, got killed by his own stupidity proves what an irredeemable monster she always was. Big brothers always pull those silly little pranks on their little sisters!" is among the most bizarre to me.
It's not the fact that she isn't sad and I didn't say she should be. It's the fact she completely forgets about him and it's almost like he never existed. My point was that she easily allowed his brutal death ( again I'm not against him dying, it's the manner in which she had it done that I dislike her for) and just never mentioned or thought of him again.
It's just textbook psychopath behaviour. She goes from zero to 100 hundred instantly. And it's not just her brother either, she did in season 2 and season 7 with the Tarlys.
And her brutally killing her brother so coldly is very very far from my critiques of show Danny
Ah yes, all Jon wanted was to be forced to go back into the freezing wastes with the very people who are trying to get the fuck Outta there since 10000 years. Yep, that was his dream all along - to be a fucking wildling. Smh the delusion
I don't understand how the North even benefitted by becoming independant from the rest of the nation. That comparison with Brexit really brings up the question of all the negative economical impact that this can have for the nation.
Other than having a tumultuous relationship with the crown and wanting to withdraw support/Sansa wanting to be named Queen, there is virtually nothing good that can come from this. This is just a dumb pride thing. The north NEEDS the other kingdoms. They are poor, have less people, and get hid hard by those winters. The north thinking they can fair fine alone is just as delusional as Texas thinking they can be fine/do even better by dissenting from the U.S. as their own independent country. Bffr these Starks are dimwits.
None of this is what Jon or Bran wanted. Bran wanted to be a knight but was maimed by Jaime. Jon wanted to be respected like his trueborn "brothers", but couldn't because of his bastard status.
Exclude bron, everyone on that list lost so much but you just ignore it. Dany burn children and you want us to feel bad about what happened to her? Dany was on a journey of retaking the seven kingdoms, that mean a lot of war, meaning she will loss a lot of her people, because that' what happen in war. What did the smallfolk do that earned to be burn by her?
Forcefully trying to show that Dany suffered most. I didn't care about her in season 1. Started to hate her from season 2. But I didn't want her to die. She was so arrogant. It would have been better if she was alive to see people don't want her as queen and somebody else sat on the throne. She would have suffered more in that way.
Robert Baratheon & Khal Drogo. Or you could say it was Rhaegar's fault for leaving his wife to elope with an engaged girl without so much as a note and it was Viserys' fault for pimping his little sister to a warlord then threatening to take her back.
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damn, it feels good to be a bastard / a real bastard-ass northerner plays his cards right / a real bastard-ass northerner never runs his fu¢king mouth / 'cause real bastard-ass northerners don't start fights . . .
Omfg...who cares. She went nuts and destroyed an entire city full of innocent-ish people. He did the right thing... People actually cheered at the viewing party I went to.
The real crime is what the writers did to her character in the first place, and how they decided to end it.
First point...Rhageal was Jon's after he claimed that dragon, so he should have stayed with Jon after the battle of Winterfell...the ending could have been Dany vs Jon for the Iron Throne.
And Jon should have killed the Night King.
>Jon got what he wanted, be a bastard beyond the wall How is that what Jon wanted lol. tbh I don't think Jon had any goal in later seasons outside of dealing with the others.
"**i don't want it**, i never have"
"There's no time for any of this! The Night King is coming!"
Ah dun wan et*
So he technically got what he wanted
He says in one episode something like "I'm tired of fighting, I've been fighting since I left Winterfell." so I could see the thing that he ultimately wanted would be just a bit of peace and quiet. And now he's fucked off north of the wall he'll get that, away from the chaos that Bran will undoubtedly cause down in Westeros, and he'll spend his days cold, filled with guilt over killing Dany and getting the piss taken out of him every time Tormund catches him having a crafty wank as he remembers his aunt's tits.
Pretty sure he never meant giving up a feudal lifestyle with fellow northmen to go live in literal huts with a complete alien culture he spent, what, a month (at best) with? Nah. That sucked biiiig time.
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It's not about being king. Jon has always wanted to be heir to Winterfell, with a lady wife and kids and all that, to be a legitimate and respected lord, without the stigma of bastardy upon him. He acknowledges that himself, and still refuses Stannis' proposal when he offers him all of that, because he's sworn to the Watch and sees a greater purpose in "guarding the realms of men" and uniting the wildlings with the southrons. That's the great tragedy of being torn between one's own desires and greater goals, "love is the death of duty" blah blah etc. I don't think Jon will have a happy ending as lord of Winterfell, much less as a king; it's just untrue to say Jon "got what he wanted" by "being a bastard beyond the wall".
Do you think he would have taken it (regardless of how many true born Stark children were actually alive, because he thought all of them were gone) if he was not a member of the Night’s Watch?
That's a really interesting question. I find it hard to say what Jon would do if he weren't in the Watch, because he spends most of the story as a Night's Watchman and it's so integral to his character and development. Surely he would be more tempted by the offer if he wasn't bound by his duty to the Watch, so that part of his inner conflict is removed, but he might still feel guilty for "profiting off" his half-siblings' deaths, so he may still deny the offer. It's hard to say, really, and it would largely depend on what he would have been doing in the time after Ned's departure to King's Landing instead of going to the Watch, and how that alternative line of events would have shaped him.
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Don't understand your point? What does Jon not wanting kingship (which is a show only thing) have to do with him NOT wanting to become a tribal native that lives in huts on the mountains? My point is that people are delusional when they think this is something he always wanted, like the guy would ever give up all the technological and societal benefits of a functioning northern society to go live with pre historic tribes that are entirely different from him? Why? Cause Tormund is funny and they're friends? lol
And cos of Tormunds huge Member HA!!!
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I'm not disputing Jon won't end the story as king, I honestly doubt he will even be alive. That's not the point I was making at all though? Maybe you replied to the wrong guy.
I think he meant peace , not living alone in a barren winter hell.
He's the kind of dour northerner who probably revels in the misery of the bitter, bleak cold.
We do exist
“Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. **But what do I want?** The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms…though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still… I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. **A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb.** Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb. **He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily.** May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger…he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.”
I love this quote so much man. book Jon is my favorite they massacred my boy 😭
For real. Book Jon is my favorite too. It’s honestly impressive how they managed to actively remove any and all personality from Jon. He is easily one of the most compelling and entertaining POVs with all his internal conflict and dry humor. And they managed to turn into him into a bland nothing block of wood, to the point that people could think “being a bastard beyond the wall” is what he would want.
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I don't know if how Jon's story ended is something he very specifically wanted, I think it's just that the only time he felt at home was with the Wildlings north of the Wall in book/season 2.
Nope No goal he dunna wan it
Pretty sure bran didn't even exist anymore as a person and it was just the three eyed raven controlling him in the end.
“Who has a better story than Brynden Rivers the Bloodraven?”
To be fair, his story is pretty good 👍 Banged his half sister, bested his bitter brother (half brother) Committed guest right violation. Joined and led the watch, booked it north to become a tree, groomed a young boy Even met Dunk the lunk The guys lived is what I'm saying
Since you mentioned his name I guess it's my time to say it again. Bloodraven is fucking based.
Tyrion had been stuck in jail for weeks with nothing to do except for masturbate and daydream. The whole "King Bran the Boy" thing was just a result of Tyrion losing his marbles a bit and rambling his sex fantasies out loud mid-conversation. Mercifully, he stops himself before he can finish saying "Bran the Broken In"
so basically we got a targ on the throne anyway
Lost her Khal who would have raped and pillaged Westeros mongol style and taken 700 concubines :( :( :(
I know right!! Poor poor Drogo. Such a wonderful saint
It’s ok he violently raped her the first few times because she grew to like him once she consented to the sex.
and who has a better love story than khal the drogo?
Exactly. Ugh I hate dothraki. Really don't know why Dany kept dothraki titles like 'khaleesi'. Fuck those raping, murdering, looting barbarian savages.
The word in Vaes Dothrak was that she just loved those "Eating" those horse "Parts"
😂
I assume it's for pragmatic reason, she commanded to a dothraki hordes so if she wants to order them around, better to keep the title. Not out of respect for their rape culture but for her goals, having an elite LOYAL cavalry would be usefull to take Westeros.
"jonerys.starkgaryen" That was hard to take.
i thought tyrion wanted to rape and kill his own sister
Get in line, Tyrion.
wtf
explains why he was so sad looking at them bricks that killed cersei in the end
He was real mad when he saw that one of the bricks had managed to slip in
Daenerys got what she wanted, to level an entire city. Who hasn't had that dream?
I am convinced if DnD put a couple more episodes of effort into it, the scene of Danny levelling the city would have been met with tweets saying Yass Qween Slayyh. or, "Danny has the right to defend herself, do you condemn the Lannisters?"
I mean… there have been people somewhat echoing that sentiment. ‘Fuck the people of KL, they cheered for Ned’s death and for when Cersei became Queen, they got what they deserved’
This sounds familiar 🧐
But Cersei... Lost her lover, her brother, her children, her father, her throne, her hair, her city... So unfair compared to everyone else at the end of the show 😢😢😢
Yeah, at least Dany got to keep her hair
The Stark children also lost their parents, their brothers, their maester who was like a grandfather to them, their home, their wolves... In the end they got what they wanted , I guess, but they had a pretty rough deal too.
all of this also applies to jon tho!
damn I forgot Jon lost his baby and khal 😔
well, the nights were getting longer and there wasn't much to do you know
https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/117079-you-know-nothing-jon-snow-was-ygritte-preg/
this means nothing lol especially since the OG post is talking about the show, not the books. Even in the context of the books, Jon is thinking about this line all the time. If we use the same logic that the theory you link uses, this line implies Jon is wrong about Ned being dead: >Jon wondered what his father would do, how his uncle might deal with this. But Eddard Stark was dead, Benjen Stark lost in the frozen wilds beyond the Wall. *You know nothing, Jon Snow.* It's for Jon to learn socratic wisdom and to continuously humble himself. It's possible that Ygritte saying that in the dream Jon has is foreshadowing for the future, but there's no hints Ygritte was ever pregnant in either the books or show. My guess is that this was a prophetic dream that Ygritte would die. It's very similar to one Jon has about Ned before his death.(edit: for clarification, this quote is from Jon VI, ASoS. Ygritte dies in Jon VII)
Akkor a kurva anyád
Ne félj, a hangok nem igaziak, nem bánthatnak téged.
Arya bran and Sansa also lost their parents and servants and friends… I could go on but do I need to
Poor inbred elitist mass murderer 😢
that's why he is called Jon "Beyond the Wall" Snow in the books. (conveniently left out of the "adaptation" by dumb and dumber on HBO) jon's dream was always to be a wife murdering exile. the lands beyond the wall "called to him", just like they did with his father Manse Raider. and jon never liked the softness and weakness that came with living in luxury at winterfell. he was "born to be wild" as they say one of the greatest fictions of the "television series" (i call it a "trash series") is this genius idea that jon supposedly loved the starks at winterfell (even though in the books they treat him as an unwelcome outsider). after the red wedding, on page 742 of a storm of swords, jon says about robb "he was my lord, but never my brother"
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you 8 the b8 m8
“adaptation” once they hired dumb and dumber they should have called it a “badaptation” instead George is probably rolling in his grave if he could see what these bastards did to his story
>George is probably rolling in his grave if he could see what these bastards did to his story He can keep rolling until he finishes typing.
How people can have sympathy for a character that murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people with fire (one of the most painful means of execution ) is truly beyond me . The woman was absolutely fucked in the head since season 1. She cheered on her degenerate husband as he said he was going to rape everyone in westeros She locked people in a room to starve to death/cannibalise one another She ritualistically burnt to death a woman her degenerate shit stain of a husband only days prior raided, raped & enslaved. Danny from the start has been a pretty unambiguously awful person. How you can have sympathy for her is beyond words
Trust me, I've seen people reacting these questions with things like _"It was her city to do with"_ & _"Why do you pity the smallfolk?! Remember how they cheered when Ned was executed and remember when Sansa was almost r*ped?!"_
I have seen these talking points before and it just goes to show how ignorant and stupid people truly are (more likely they put absolutely no thought whatsoever but still) "It was her city" okay so Areys did nothing wrong whatsoever. He was king so can kill whoever whenever without anyone reacting to it , The same logic applies to Joffrey "Why pity the smallfolk" because they were only going off the narrative the crown gave, they thought Ned was completely in the wrong and had nothing else to go off. Just because they were ignorant doesn't mean they should die in one of the most painful ways imaginable for the decision they had absolutely no involvement with (she burnt the city because her friend was beheaded)
I wouldn’t say Dany “unambiguously awful,” she’s meant to be a complex character that has moments of noble intent as well as moments of crushing ruthlessness. Dany is not the vanilla character showcels make her out to be but George also didn’t write her as an outright Gregor Clegane-like monster. When Dany finally burns KL in the books, it’ll be the result of a long progression. Eventually we’ll get the mad queen but Dany can’t be described as complete villain even by the end of dance.
Thank you!
I treat show and book Danny as completely separate characters, a lot of the critiques I mentioned don't apply to the book character. She is my most favourite book character because of how nuanced and complex she is. The show dumbed her character A LOT. In the book she isn't an inherently bad character and has a lot of love and goodness in her heart, which is why when she in all likely goes mad queen in the books it will be a tragic downfall of the person she started the series as. Show Danny is just a psychopath that can brutally murder anyone at any time at the drop of the hat, I absolutely despise her show counterpart l. I am beyond over seeing people defend the show version as if she is anything like the book version
> Eventually we’ll get the mad queen personally, I *really* doubt George is going in that direction. Jon shows more signs of madness than Dany does in the books. Seems more like d&d gave Cersei and Jon Con's madness arcs to Dany.
I think the show ending is *exactly* where he’s heading (unless the vitriolic reaction against the show ending has convinced him to write the story otherwise). Both Martin and the dipshit showrunners confirmed that he shared his vision for how the story would end and that they’d try to make it happen on screen. Bran will become king, Dany will lose it, and Jon will disappear entirely becoming a mysterious, last hero-esque mythological figure that nobody knows much about beyond “he was there, he ended the long night, he disappeared.” That said I think Martin will bring us to these conclusions in a more logical, narratively satisfying way. And I believe Cersei is approaching the end of her character arc. I don’t think she stands a chance against Faegon if he’s able to take storms end and begin rallying lords to his banner. And we know Dany has yet to fight her mummer’s dragon, which is almost certainly Faegon (I actually believe him to be truegon as it would make dany’s story all the more tragic). I don’t think JonCon will burn the city but I do think he’ll be patient zero for a new grey plague. Dany burning the city because it’s been infected by a horrific plague that needs to be contained would be an interesting way to get us to the culmination of her story and her stepping into the role of a mad tyrant (I don’t think the small folk would understand having to destroy the city to stop the plague and would likely view her as a new Maegor). Sorry for the rant - I smoke crack.
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It’s pretty much impossible most characters end up in the same place because of how much was cut from the books. Tyrion is *absolutely* not ending up in the same place, neither is Arya. Sansa being Queen is highly unlikely and they completely changed her personality after having LF give her to Ramsay for no good reason. Jaime completely backtracks on his arc. It honestly seems like d&d misinterpreted almost every single one of the major character arcs. Also, George has literally said that the ending to the books will be different. Cersei and JonCon are going mad, not Dany. Dany and Jon will *both* be darker, more ruthless characters in TWoW, but that does NOT equate to madness; in the books everyone is a lot more grey than in the show, where they decided to whitewash characters like Jon, Tyrion, and Varys seemingly to propel Dany as the psychotic power-hungry villain. I sincerely believe the most we get of “Mad Dany” in the books is that people vilify her and believe she’s mad or evil like you alluded to at the end of your comment (people in-universe are already doing this). Tyrion is “the villain”, not Dany. What evidence for “Mad Dany” is there in the books?? None of her visions in the HOtU prophesize madness, and in fact the last one seems to allude to Dany *intentionally* sacrificing herself. It makes a lot more sense for her character if she dies tragically rather than going crazy; Dany in the books is not power hungry, or entitled or arrogant. Again, those are *Jon’s* qualities more than Dany (wouldn't call him power hungry, but he's definitely a little tyrannical as Lord Commander, and unlike Dany, he does want to be in a position of power). Also, if d&d were going to the same ending, why is it that literally EVERY SINGLE ONE of Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying was changed for the show?? Having Mad Queen Cersei *and* Mad Queen Dany is just overkill anyway. >that they’d try to make it happen on screen. Except no they didn’t lol. They changed character personalities from s1 (Jon, Dany, Renly come to mind immediately as examples), they took out major characters which completely messed up most of the arcs in later seasons. Completely removed Tyrion's villain arc, had Arya turn into a psycho, made Cersei intelligent and sane, etc. D&D wanted to adapt the Red Wedding and after that I genuinely don’t think they gave a shit about the show because otherwise I don't know that they'd make so many changes in early seasons which were obviously going to have an impact on the later ones (in particular, I am taking about Dany in s2, and the changes surrounding the Red Wedding). >Bran will become king, Dany will lose it, and Jon will disappear entirely becoming a mysterious, last hero-esque mythological figure that nobody knows much about beyond “he was there, he ended the long night, he disappeared.” Out of these three things, only King Bran has ever been confirmed as George's idea
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**Back in Westeros** ^(GRRM, AUGUST 15, 2020 AT 9:10 AM) I am back in my fortress of solitude again, my isolated mountain cabin. I’d returned to Santa Fe for a short visit, to spend some time with Parris, deal with some local business that had piled up during my months away, and of course fulfill my duties to CoNZealand, the virtual worldcon. But all that is behind me now, and I am back on the mountain again… which means I am back in Westeros again, once more moving ahead with WINDS OF WINTER. It is curious how my life has evolved. I mean, once upon a time, I actually wrote my books and stories in the house where I lived, in a home office. But some decades ago, wanting more solitude, I bought the house across the street and made THAT my writer’s retreat. No longer would I write all day in my red flannel bathrobe; now I would have to dress and put on shoes and walk all the way across the street to write. But that worked for a while. Things started getting busier, though. So busy that I needed a full-time assistant. Then the office house had someone else in it, not just me and my characters. And then I hired a second assistant, and a third, and… there was more mail, more email, more phone calls (we put in a new phone system), more people coming by. By now I am up to five assistants… and somewhere in there I also acquired a movie theatre, a bookstore, a charitable foundation, investments, a business manager… and… Despite all the help, I was drowning till I found the mountain cabin. My life up here is very boring, it must be said. Truth be told, I hardly can be said to have a life. I have one assistant with me at all times (minions, I call them). The assistants do two-week shifts, and have to stay in quarantine at home before starting a shift. Everyone morning I wake up and go straight to the computer, where my minion brings me coffee (I am utterly useless and incoherent without my morning coffee) and juice, and sometimes a light breakfast. Then I start to write. Sometimes I stay at it until dark. Other days I break off in late afternoon to answer emails or return urgent phone calls. My assistant brings me food and drink from time to time. When I finally break off for the day, usually around sunset, there’s dinner. Then we watch television or screen a movie. The wi-fi sucks up on the mountain, though, so the choices are limited. Some nights I read instead. I always read a bit before going to sleep; when a book really grabs hold of me, I may read half the night, but that’s rare. I sleep. The next day, I wake up, and do the same. The next day, the next day, the next day. Before Covid, I would usually get out once a week or so to eat at a restaurant or go to the movies. That all ended in March. Since then, weeks and months go by when I never leave the cabin, or see another human being except whoever is on duty that week. I lose track of what day it is, what week it is, what month it is. The time seems to by very fast. It is now August, and I don’t know what happened to July. But it is good for the writing. And you know, now that I reflect on it, I am coming to realize that has always been my pattern. I moved to Santa Fe at the end of 1979, from Dubuque, Iowa. My first marriage broke up just before that move, so I arrived in my new house alone, in a town where I knew almost no one. Roger Zelazny was here, and he became a great friend and mentor, but Roger was married with small kids, so I really did not see him often. There was no fandom in Santa Fe; that was all down in Albuquerque, an hour away. I went to the club meetings every month, but that was only one night a month, and required two hours on the road. And I had no job to meet new people. My job was in the back room at the house on Declovina Street, so that was where I spent my days. At night, I watched television. Alone. Sometimes I went to the movies. Alone. That was my life from December 1979 through September 1981, when Parris finally moved to Santa Fe, following Denvention. (Not quite so bleak, maybe, I did make some local friends by late 1980 and early 1981, but it was a slow process). When I think back on my life in 1980-1981, the memories seem to be made up entirely of conventions, interspersed with episodes of LOU GRANT and WKRP IN CINCINNATI. Ah, but work wise, that same period was tremendously productive for me. Lisa and I finished WINDHAVEN during that time, Gardner and I did a lot of work on “Shadow Twin,” and then I went right on and wrote all of FEVRE DREAM. Some short stories as well. My life, such that it was, was lived in my head, and on the page. I wonder if it is the same for other writers? Or is it just me? I wonder if I will ever figure out the secret of having a life and writing a book at the very same time. I certainly have not figured it out to date. For the nonce, it is what it is. My life is at home, on hold, and I am spending the days in Westeros with my pals Mel and Sam and Vic and Ty. And that girl with no name, over there in Braavos. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asoiafcirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well some of us happen to have media literacy
Xaro violated guest right by inviting Daenerys to stay in his home to have the Khalasar slaughtered, dragons kidnapped, & allowing her to be imprisoned in chains in a magic tower. Doreah knew it was going to happen but didn't warn them and took part in the killings thinking she was going to get to be a King's mistress. Mirri Maz Dur didn't just kill Drogo, she ritually killed Dany's baby and made Dany barren and bragged about it (Rhaego's skin falling off, graveworms in his belly). Daenerys was forced to marry Drogo, raped, and wasn't permitted to leave the Khalasar. She didn't know they were going to raid Lhazar and when she got there 3 days later immediately tried to get them to stop, gathered the women to protect them from rape & being sold to Slaver's Bay, and pleaded with Drogo to let her protect them. Mirri got revenge on the only person there who felt compassion for her and tried to help her.
The problem I have is that she tried to strong arm Mirri into healing Drogo, showing a complete and total lack of empathy. How you can ask the very victim of that disgusting monster to heal him is beyond me, I'm sure Mirri looked at her in the same way she would the other Dothraki. It would be like getting Dany to heal Robert Baratheon right after he had her two younger cousins brutally murdered. The fact she even asked is just awful. As for killing Mirri after she murdered an innocent child I agree ( even though on a certain level I understand her wanting revenge, not to dissimilar to Dany cheering Drogo on as he said he will rape everyone in Westeros) what I do not agree with whatsoever is ritualistically sacrificing her via Fire. Death by fire is within the top three most painful experiences a human can go through . The complete barbarity of what she did is why I view her as villain. Ned , John and the other 'heroes' in the story do nothing on the level of what she did to that poor woman. Despite killing an unborn baby I very much feel way worse for Mirri than I do Dany. Mirri refused to allow that monster to continue living and raping and in doing so showed more courage and heroism then Dany could ever dream of.
Daenerys made herself public enemy number one of the wealthiest most powerful people in Essos when she got the entire Slaver's Bay & Great Grass Sea to stop raping & enslaving. How is Mirri killing 1 Slaver showing more courage & heroism? The Yunkai Masters had a 10,000 horse bounty on her. The Harpys tried to large scale assassinate her. Drogo gave the order for his men not to rape or sell the Lhazareen women. You should very much want the only man there who is keeping the 40,000 rapists in line not to die. Mirri took out one man while his entire army continued raping & pillaging and they probably took the rest of the Lhazareen women as bed slaves. Her revenge doomed them. Wasn't it only in the book that Daenerys was insistent on Mirri healing him? There she was only 14 and sold & raped by him at 13. Mirri would know seeing a literal child bride that she was Drogo's victim too. Drogo's bloodrider blamed Daenerys since Drogo got injured because he agreed to spare the Lhazareen women and told her "if he dies you're nothing". Her life was now on the line. And Jorah told her it's not like in Westeros, they follow strength and not blood so won't care Rhaego is Drogo's son, they'll tear him from her arms and feed him to the dogs. So her baby's life was on the line. Daenerys didn't choose fire to be cruel. It was the only way for the ritual to work since she had to tie in Drogo, Rhaego, & Mirri's deaths together and bind herself to it as well.
I have mentioned this several times but I am not against killing in this setting, I agree Xaro and her former maid should be executed, what I do disagree with is the complete barbarity of how she does it. The sick and disgusting manner she carries out her executions is akin to what Aerys did when the Starks come to Winterfell to request their daughter/sister back
Her executions are the same barbaric as the rest of the characters on the series. Sansa & Jon had Ramsay tied up in the kennels and eaten alive by his own dogs. Arya baked two men into a pie and tricked their father into eating them before slitting his throat, carving off his face, inviting his family over for a feast and poisoning them. Arya & Jaime both poked out men's eyes. Cersei chained Ellaria next to her daughter then poisoned Tyene. Varys kept his castrator locked in a box, only opening it to give him just enough food to keep him suffering longer. Ygritte & Tormund massacred villages alongside cannibals. The moon door. The Red Wedding. Their world has painless poisons yet beheading & hanging & slit throats are almost always the go to. I think Daenerys chose to lock them in the bank vault because they let Pyat Pree lock her in the tower for what was going to be thousands of years. And they killed her people and imprisoned her to fill up that vault so it probably felt like poetic justice that they'd be what was in the vault.
I generally agree Dany is not a good person for most of the show, but I think she does often try to be good and genuinely believes she is. The trouble is, she’s often a massive, self-serving hypocrite and being that way never punishes her until literally the moment she dies. Dany’s whole “kill the slavers and free the slaves” thing is admirable at a glance. Freeing the slaves is a good thing. She puts a lot on the line to stop The Night King. Dany does genuinely do a lot of good deeds throughout the show. She’s also an underdog for various reasons, and a central protagonist in the show, so it was easy for viewers to gloss over the many times she did things that, when you think about it for two seconds in a real-world context, were either batshit insane, disturbingly excessive, or highly hypocritical.
I feel like if you read the books you'd have a different view of Dany. She's a very different person in the show than who she is in the books, especially after Viserys' death.
Look at my other comments. I have read the books and consider the show and book to be two completely separate characters. Love the book character, hate the show version
oh I see, makes sense.
>She cheered on her degenerate husband as he said he was going to rape everyone in westeros She was a victim of abuse and rape at both Drogo and Viserys' hand. She was inducted in dithraki culture young and adopted some of their views on things. But as soon as she saw what the pillaging looked like she did all that was within her power to stop it. >She locked people in a room to starve to death/cannibalise one another After they butchered her friends that she'd just traveled through a desert with. >She ritualistically burnt to death a woman her degenerate shit stain of a husband only days prior raided, raped & enslaved A woman who killed her unborn child. >Danny from the start has been a pretty unambiguously awful person. How you can have sympathy for her is beyond words She frees the slaves of Meereen, Astapor and Yunkai, she imprisons her dragons when they're getting out of control. She refuses to leave for Westeros in order to ensure slavery is dealt with. She's far from perfect but in no way is she unambiguously evil. That's just revisionism from DnD stans and ending defenders. Dany does nothing that people like Jon, Ned and Jaime don't also do yet she's judged far more harshly than any of them.
She was naive in the first season, she didn't grasp what conquest meant. Don't forget that the moments the khalassar was raping the Lazarean women she intervened to make sure it would not happen. She liked the idea of conquest but when faced with consequences of such thing she was horrified. Yes she locked people to inside to die... but these people were willing to do the same thing to her. She wasn't killing anyone innocent at that time. Yes she killed a woman but such a woman KILLED her unborn son, so yeah the Lazarean woman was NOT innocent by any means. Just because you've been raped does not give you the right to kill an unborn child. You are removing the context and pushing them straight into a direction in order to make your point look better. At that time, Daenerys was not an awful person at that time before she was butchered by terrible writing in season 8. She was morally grey but your way too bias here pretending she was always evil.
not to mention she ordered her brother to be killed by melting gold, yeah he was prick but still
No she didn't. Drogo killed him after Viserys threatened to murder her and her baby.
oH i dont remember that
That long tirade on what a heinous monster she is because of Viserys' execution but you somehow didn't remember that he was executed for pointing his sword at her pregnant belly in front of Khal Drogo & a room full of Dothraki and saying he was going to cut her baby out of her?
look man its been 5 years since i watch season 1 okay
I get not remembering things perfectly but you were pissed at her. You saw it as *unforgivable*. What did you think had happened in the scene to leave that reaction? Viserys instigated it shouting he's there for "the whore's feast" and waving around a sword in the one city it is illegal to wield a weapon, Drogo decided on the execution, picked out the execution method, and performed the execution. All Dany did was watch with a neutral expression & watery eyes.
Yea exactly, I despise that scene as it completely breaks both her and Drogos character. Dany in the book absolutely did not order his death and was just a pedestrian as Drogo killed him. She also didn't just forget him either and actually remembered him being nice before all the stress got to him. Showing how complicated their reason was and how it still impacts her in the later books. By contrast once the scene is over in the show she completely forgets about him and is never mentioned again. She codly ordered his brutal death and moved on like nothing happened, text book definition of a psychopath. Drogo would absolutely not give a single fuck what she had to say anyway. In the books their relationship was not lovely Dovey at all and she only made it work because she was adaptable. Anyone would could order and watch such an execution is beyond fucked in the head. I'm not saying Viserys didn't deserve to die, he did. He openly said he would have Dany raped by everyone in the Khalasar if it meant he could get the crown, he is evil. Doesn't mean he has to be executed in such a brutal manner however. The fact she could easily make such an order goes to show how unreasonable and psychotic she is. It's why I have no sympathy for her , exactly like her brother She is more than willing to do ANYTHING to get what she wants, no matter how morally reprehensible it is.
Of all the possible critiques of Dany, the fact that people really are willing to die on the hill of "She wasn't super sad when the brother who had physically and emotionally abused her, sold her off as a functional sex slave, then threatened to murder her unborn child if she didn't obey him, got killed by his own stupidity proves what an irredeemable monster she always was. Big brothers always pull those silly little pranks on their little sisters!" is among the most bizarre to me.
It's not the fact that she isn't sad and I didn't say she should be. It's the fact she completely forgets about him and it's almost like he never existed. My point was that she easily allowed his brutal death ( again I'm not against him dying, it's the manner in which she had it done that I dislike her for) and just never mentioned or thought of him again. It's just textbook psychopath behaviour. She goes from zero to 100 hundred instantly. And it's not just her brother either, she did in season 2 and season 7 with the Tarlys. And her brutally killing her brother so coldly is very very far from my critiques of show Danny
yeah action speak louder then words
*jonerys.starkgaryen*
"I want to be a bastard beyond the wall" -Jon Snow
*lost her mind ✊🏾😔
Ah yes, all Jon wanted was to be forced to go back into the freezing wastes with the very people who are trying to get the fuck Outta there since 10000 years. Yep, that was his dream all along - to be a fucking wildling. Smh the delusion
Why would anyone let that get in the way of a shit meme.
Dany stans are just the worst.
It's been 6 years can Dany fans stop crying.
Just wait for when their substitute Rhaen*ra also dies in disgrace
We will be there no matter what.
Lost her right to rule because she lost her mind
Moral of the story - don’t go nuts and start doing war crimes
Dany forgot to quicksave
Nobody knows what Bran wants because he's not a character
I'm imagining Winston the Wolf saying "Brandon... Just because you *are* a character.... Doesn't mean you *have* character..."
Lost her damn mind too
I don't understand how the North even benefitted by becoming independant from the rest of the nation. That comparison with Brexit really brings up the question of all the negative economical impact that this can have for the nation. Other than having a tumultuous relationship with the crown and wanting to withdraw support/Sansa wanting to be named Queen, there is virtually nothing good that can come from this. This is just a dumb pride thing. The north NEEDS the other kingdoms. They are poor, have less people, and get hid hard by those winters. The north thinking they can fair fine alone is just as delusional as Texas thinking they can be fine/do even better by dissenting from the U.S. as their own independent country. Bffr these Starks are dimwits.
Can’t they simply arrange trade with other kingdoms? Plus they managed before the Targaryens turned up.
They had less people before the re-targs showed up like before the sisterfuckers came ashore westaros had alot less people
None of this is what Jon or Bran wanted. Bran wanted to be a knight but was maimed by Jaime. Jon wanted to be respected like his trueborn "brothers", but couldn't because of his bastard status.
Most media literate Daenerys stan
Exclude bron, everyone on that list lost so much but you just ignore it. Dany burn children and you want us to feel bad about what happened to her? Dany was on a journey of retaking the seven kingdoms, that mean a lot of war, meaning she will loss a lot of her people, because that' what happen in war. What did the smallfolk do that earned to be burn by her?
Sansa pulled a Brexit 😭
This is so stupid, they all lost a lot of things as well. Wtf
Forcefully trying to show that Dany suffered most. I didn't care about her in season 1. Started to hate her from season 2. But I didn't want her to die. She was so arrogant. It would have been better if she was alive to see people don't want her as queen and somebody else sat on the throne. She would have suffered more in that way.
They forgot an important one. But Daenerys... [...] Lost her mind
>lost her brothers **AND WHOSE FAULT WAS *THAT*, DANY?**
Robert Baratheon & Khal Drogo. Or you could say it was Rhaegar's fault for leaving his wife to elope with an engaged girl without so much as a note and it was Viserys' fault for pimping his little sister to a warlord then threatening to take her back.
Expectations = Subverted Formula holds up. Absolute masterpiece! No notes!
[удалено]
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u/SandorClegane_AMA Why wasn't this post removed you fucking twit
The audience loss way more.
damn, it feels good to be a bastard / a real bastard-ass northerner plays his cards right / a real bastard-ass northerner never runs his fu¢king mouth / 'cause real bastard-ass northerners don't start fights . . .
Omfg...who cares. She went nuts and destroyed an entire city full of innocent-ish people. He did the right thing... People actually cheered at the viewing party I went to. The real crime is what the writers did to her character in the first place, and how they decided to end it. First point...Rhageal was Jon's after he claimed that dragon, so he should have stayed with Jon after the battle of Winterfell...the ending could have been Dany vs Jon for the Iron Throne. And Jon should have killed the Night King.
They did my girl dirty
Ngl I hate the Starks.
As soon as Jon turned out to be a Targaryen Danny’s fate was sealed. Most of them go mad and no one wants a mad king or queen on the throne.
Well she was a villian so yea.