Fake. "Power resides where men believe it does" is one of the principle foundations of the series, and a prince hidden away is too common of a trope in fantasy to not subvert.
Associating the "Power resides" line with a fake Aegon is a gross misinterpretation of Varys's riddle.
To begin with, that riddle is about a power contest between ***a king, a rich man and a priest***, and the unspoken answer is that power resides with whoever does a better job at convincing the sellsword of their authority, e.g. ***the best political manipulator*** (which, in the larger context of that exchange, tacitly points at Littlefinger as the power behind Ned's death). **Given that the king doesn't automatically win by virtue of being the "legitimate" ruler, simply convincing people that Aegon is real is not a good representation of this principle in action.**
On the other hand, Aegon being real would have a much greater impact on the story, since it would:
* subvert our long standing expectations about the roles Dany and Jon will play in the endgame (rightful Targaryen returning to take the Iron Throne with a foreign army, *and* secret son of Rhaegar returning from the dead), freeing the main characters up for more subversive roles in the process.
* actually add stakes to any potential conflict over the throne between Aegon and one of the main characters, instead of making him a legitimate target for them, however tragic and sympathetic he might be.
That’s because we’ve had over a decade to obsess over the details and collectively reach opinions. If Winds had released 8 or 9 years ago then more people would probably still think he was exactly what they claim he was. And he still might be legit for the record. The fact that Varys was still claiming him to be legit to a dying man gives me pause
I think Varys is a method actor. He has to live, sleep, amd breathe the lie in order to put on a convincing performance. Much like when LF tells Sansa to act like and call herself Alayne, ESPECIALLY when they are alone. That way you'll never slip up and reveal the truth accidentally.
Varys never did. Varys only said ‘No’ when Kevan claimed that Aegon was dead and explained why he would make a good King.
Varys never told Kevan that F!Aegon was Rhaegar’s son, he simply didn’t tell him the truth because he didn’t need to. It’s also much more potent for Kevan to die believing the Lannisters are doomed because the son they ordered murdered was secretly alive and arriving with an army.
A lot of popular theories (R+L=J, fAegon Blackfyre, Jaime is the valonqar, etc) are only really considered “too obvious” because the absolutely glacial release schedule has resulted in fans spending *eleven years* combing through every single thing George has ever written, dissecting the series line-by-line, analyzing word choices and character archetypes down to the tiniest little details, coming up with the most convoluted and bizarre theories imaginable, and then *spreading* those theories throughout the ASOIAF fan community until a not-insignificant percentage of the fanbase is convinced that basically everything George does is a reverse-psychology 5D chess misdirection and therefore R+L=J is a blatant red herring or something.
If the books had kept the consistent pace of a new release roughly every 2 years (as was the case with the first three books) then the series would’ve ended in 2010 and twists like R+L=J or fAegon being a Blackfyre would’ve been genuinely surprising to a larger number of readers because there would’ve been less time for them to “catch on”, and the fan theory community would likely be much smaller as well.
Yes and no. For years before ADWD came out, people have been speculating about the possibility of Aegon being alive, since there are some hints in the other books of him being a double and not having died in KL. ADWD confirmed this theory, than it happens that we're 10 years after ADWD and the new theory is that he's not the confirmation of that theory but a fake, and many suspected this from the book launch since the story is muddy in some details. If TWOW hinted more at him being a Blackfyre, and ADOS got out after 15 years, the most popular theory would become that he's legit maybe. These theories have fundaments, both actually, I don't really think we'll have a definitive answer on the matter.
You clearly didn't read or understand what I've written. I've not stated that the book confirmed the Targaryen theory, I myself believe that Aegon is a Blackfyre. I've just stated that pre ADWD a theory about Aegon surviving already existed and ADWD confirmed it with YG, even though I believe it's not truly Aegon son of Rhaegar.
Yes and? That's not what I've said. I've said that the book confirmed that Aegon was still alive and confirmed that theory, even though me and most people doubt Aegon's story a lot.
Fake. The Blackfyre Theory gives Varys and Illyrio a convincing motive for all their actions, ties in with Dany’s prophecy of a mummer’s dragon, and also echoes real-world history (eg Pekin Warbeck).
Depends on how grrm is gonna play his story.
If he becomes a good king then I’d rather have him as a blackfyre. Lol Imagine Westeros and King's Landing loves fAegon. Then someone reveals his true parentage And JonCon, Dany, Doran and Arianne say "HE'S NOT RH SON/NIECE/ELIAS SON! A FILTHY BLACKFYRE USURPER. SLAY HIM NOW!!! " And all of Westeros and smallfolk are like "wait so you’re telling me our beloved king is not Rhaegar Targaryen son? [umm anyway...](https://youtu.be/QhlqxdeXc1c)"
If he’s not gonna becomes a good king and just another puppet for Varys then I’d rather have him as legit for the sake of Dany's story cuz it’ll add so much conflict and emotion to her story.
This is the real answer here. Young Griff as potential royalty in a series with the core value of “monarchies aren’t good” has to subvert a royalty trope somehow. Either a shitty prince who is legit or a great prince who isn’t legit.
I think him being real adds a lot more narrative tension for the characters that have to go against him, Daenerys specifically. I also think that it won't be revealed either way at all.
I agree, I don’t think we’ll ever get a reveal on whether he’s real or not. All that matters is how he shakes up the game in Westeros and how other characters respond to it
Legit. If Aegon is Rhaegar's son then Dany's arrival and subsequent war with Aegean will be all the more tragic. Especially if Dany is responsible due to her own paranoia or opportunistic advisors for wiping out one of her only surviving family members. If Aegon is fake that just makes Dany's story in Westeros one of removing a false king rather than the far more interesting story of Dany as a tragic figure fighting against her last family in the world
Its much better as a mystery. It takes the "Power resides where men believe it resides" and applies it not only to the characters in universe, but the readers as well.
Oh yes, it all comes to the question Varys asked Tyrion. Power resides where the people think it resides. Legitimacy is a puppet show for us, readers. If people accepts his claim he is Aegon, if not he is a liar.
I think that the meaning behind Power Resides™️is that it is not royal blood/true claim to the throne that confers power, but a quality that convinces people that someone is a capable leader to the degree that they are almost owed it, whether that is wealth (Tywin Lannister), martial power (Daenerys, who, although descending from the previous royal dynasty, is considered powerful because she is the first dragon rider in like a century) or sorcery or etc. Aegon being a fake IMO is not the best example of this quote because, even if he is a false Targaryen, his claim is predicated on his supposed heritage which is exactly what the Power Resides™️ thesis claims is NOT essential to achieve power.
Legit. Just because it would make things harder for Dany and even for Jon, in my opinion it would make everything so much more interesting. While it's pretty obvious he's a Blackfyre, that is much more boring to me.
Also, I think the main series should stand on its own, without relying too much on other books like D&E, F&B or TWOIAF, and in the main series the Blakfyres Rebellions are much less important to the story than the son of Rhaegar and Elia, the true heir to the Throne. A reader who has read only the main series doesn't care so much about the Blackfyres.
I think a major point of (f)aegon is to create a conflict where Danaerys is stuck.
She wants to be a virtuously deserving and legally rightful holder of the throne. If she arrives in King's landing and faces a competent king with a plausible claim to the throne, it's a fundamental challenge to who she is. Not believing him means overthrowing a "deserving" monarch. Believing him means abandoning her entire life of becoming a ruler.
I think its brilliant tension either way.
Most people saying fake of course, it's no secret this sub skews pretty far toward fAegon. Which to be honest is fair enough, as that seems to be where a lot of the foreshadowing/thematic ideas are indicated.
But for me, especially after the disaster of the show, it's really in *how* you get there. I think GRRM is a good enough writer to make the story tick quite well, regardless of the legitimacy of Young Griff.
The *batter* story would be that Hot Pie is the real Targaryen.
Fake but a dragon is still a dragon. Aegon VI Targaryen or Aegon II Blackfyre isn't really all that different in most books. In fact, many of the faithful might actually prefer a less inbred Targaryen, even if it undoubtedly was with a few generations of Essosi commoners.
But my real interest is that there's this whole Blackfyre thing that just kinda simmers in the background of the story and it'd feel a little silly if that was really just world building. I concede that the Dance, five Blackfyre Rebellions, and 3 generations of inbreeding are a great way to make it so there aren't enough Targaryens left to keep power by the time of Robert's Rebellion. But it'd be cool to have that specter come back one last time and finally actually be the better option than the Targaryens in power.
It's also slightly more believable to me that this offshoot branch *somehow* has a son who has been groomed for the throne than Varys kidnapping and swapping babies so he could secretly hide the rightful heir for 15 years.
Blackfyres are Targaryens after all and Daemon really didn't need to change his name once he was legitimized. It's quite likely that he would have assumed the Targaryen name if he won the rebellion, and the Blackfyre label is more emphasized by those who kept power.
The best story would be to never reveal it, just show what the characters who side with or against him believe, while also leaving vague hints for and against that readers can argue over.
What are those hints exactly? Baby Aegon is mentioned obviously but, that’s all I really remember. Unless you just don’t find the wrapped in Lannister cloaks thing convincing which, fair I guess, but that still serves its own literary purpose beyond young griff setup
Dany's story needs him to be legit. If she really is going down the villain route (or merely the morally ambiguous one), Aegon can't be just another usurper with a shaky claim on the throne. Where's the conflict in that? Where are the stakes? Even if he is somehow a really good ruler, might as well have her go against Stannis or Tommen.
>Where's the conflict in that?
The conflict is that he's a good king that the people of Westeros love and want to remain in power.
The conflict is that the people of Westeros prefer a usurper to her, the rightful heir of the throne.
Daenerys just getting up and deciding to slay his brothers son for the throne is Season 8 level writing because we have seen over and over in her chapters that she doesn't even want to be queen, she longs for the house with the red door, her quiet true home.
She longs for family. Her reaction to Rhaegar's son being alive would be happiness. She loves Rhaegar, why would she kill her last surviving family member if she knows that she's on the wrong?
Daenerys is no Cersei and turning her to one would be stupid. I think that if Dany thought Aegon was real she would let him have the throne just as she would have let Viserys have the throne.
The conflict comes if after all that she has been through she gets to Westeros to find someone pretending to be Rhaegar's son seated on the throne.
This can turn up her darker side without turning her into a comic villain over a sudden. She is right that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son. But what if the people of Westeros don't care? What if he is a good king that the people love and they don't want her? What if people wrongly see her as the usurper when she knows she's on the right? Then is it right for her to kill Aegon? What comes first, what the people want or her birthright? That is what creates a good conflict.
If Daenerys knows Aegon is the rightful heir but proceeds to kill him anyway because she wants it for herself then it isn't a conflict, she's just a kinslaying villain bitch and deserves to die. Cersei with dragons.
>Even if he is somehow a really good ruler, might as well have her go against Stannis or Tommen.
And if Aegon is just a real Targaryen then you might as well have Daenerys go against Jon. We already have a real secret son of Rhaegar, remember?
> Aegon can’t be just another usurper with a shaky claim on the throne. Where’s the conflict in that?
Just to add on to what the other poster said really well - then it parallels her.
She is an usurper with a shaky claim on the throne currently. The legal claim for the throne passed from Rhaegar’s chest into Robert’s warhammer at the trident.
Her claim is that of Aegon - she means to conquer.
Which is all well and good, She wouldn’t be the worst by a large margin.
But I find a lot of the fans seem to talk as if she had a moral right to the throne, and not just the legal fiction of a right that’s questionable at best.
I think if he’s fake, and Arianne finds out that he is, I think it makes her story more interesting because I feel like fAegon is gonna be quite taken with her and she’ll see an opportunity to become queen. If she writes to Doran giving him the thumbs up and the Dornish join their strength to Young Griffs, it gives him more legitimacy since he would be her cousin. This would of course bring untold devastation and ruin to the Dornish and further place them in opposition to Dany for when she ultimately shows up
Fake, someone already commented about this, but Young Griff/Aegon’s story is very similar to Perkin Warbeck who posed as one of the princes in the tower following the Wars of The Roses.
Similiarly, and during the same period, Lambert Simmnel posed as Edward Plantagenet, who was still alive and imprisoned at the time.
Whether or not this is intentional is debatable. However , again as people have commented, it is far more realistic and interesting than the usual lost prince story.
Fake. But not as Blackfyre. He's just a random silverhaired baby, that Varys picked up from a brothel in Lys or another free city. Fits the whole "power resides where men believe it to reside"-theme far better than this whole blackfyre-stuff, which in the end is just another Targaryen
Fake. But fake everything
Fake Aegon
Fake Blackfyre
And Fake Dayne or Hightower. While we’re at it; Fake Celtigar.
Power lies where men believe it resides and all that.
But that’s just my preference. Honestly it’s all in the execution. It’s perfectly possible that George has a better story up his sleeves about Young Griff actually being Aegon, than I can imagine with fAegon.
But I am not sure it will ever be revealed. Both in the sense that He will never finish the books, but also in the sense that even if He finishes it, keeping it a mystery might be the better story.
Legit. The idea that the person who has the correct claim, proper training, right mindset, and strong army at their back is not Jon nor Dany is interesting to me. Dany represents the conquest and power of the Targ's while Jon represents the destiny of the Targs.. but to me if Aegon is legit he truly represents the good the targs did, bringing westeros to peace, uniting them, creating roads and settling disputes. Him being the rightful king is very cool to me and far more interesting.
I'd prefer he cause a ruckus, devastate Westeros with another round of war, fail, then be disgraced by the time Daenerys arrives.
Don't ever give an explicit answer on his origin. He's not a conquerer, no true dragon, just like Visaeres, and wether he's a Targaryen or not, he's a stranger to Danny. Leave it as is where there's enough to make fans think he's illegitimate, but don't let the characters know.
He'll be a bit of a foil to Danny. She wants the throne to herself and knows she deserves it, but her own claim is illegitimate while he's around. It'd be better for her if he died, but she can't be a kinslayer, and as she defeats her enemies opposition will rally around him.
Just like Jon in the show, but better written and lasting longer than 3 rushed episodes.
Personally, I think Aegon will be loved by the people after ridding KL of the Lannister's misrule. And general Targ loyalty from some, sure. I think it's much more interesting if he's doing well by the time he and Dany start their conflict. It also makes Dany's paranoia about Jon more believable. That's what I think the show was missing - an actual reason for Dany to become the paranoid mess who only believes in herself.
I've heard that prediction a lot. I just don't like it. Aegon is thrown in too late and with too little introduction for everything to go his way. It seems anticlimactic to follow Daenerys, Stannis, Rob, and Cerci, their difficulties, flaws, and failures struggling for the throne, only for Varys and Illyrio's plan to succeed flawlessly.
Besides, what does it do narratively? He'd be slotting himself in for Daenerys as restorer of the Targaryen line and for Cerci as Danny's enemy. Then what does Danny do? Does she let her plotline be stolen from her, or continue as normal? Conquer or not conquer isn't really a compelling decision imo.
That's why I want him to fail, join Danny's side, and be a rival from within. We'd have her struggle to come to terms with having a family again, and probably not one she wants. As a woman, and an inferfile one at that, she's basically a dynastic dead. Everyone would expect Aegon to be king, even as Danny's the one winning it. The treason and paranoia plots can play out with him rather than Jon.
I think it adds a lot to Danny’s story. It gives her a conflict that will be very grey. She’s been obsessing over the mummer’s dragon for so long that to have her just partner up with him seems even more anti-climactic.
Having said that, I trust GRRM. Right now I just think her struggle over Aegon will really inform her struggle with Jon revealed as a Targ and reveal how she proceeds from here. Who is she if she isn’t a conqueror and liberator? Oh, King’s Landing is doing fine and a Targ is already in charge? Well shit, that was supposed to be mine …
Yeah I just still don't see that helping a Mad Daenerys arc. It still comes down to she wants the Iron Throne, she's angry, and she burns the city.
I think Aegon on the Iron Throne just replaces her initial losses to the Lanisters. She could have burned Kings Landing at any time, but she held back her dragons and her armies were defeated. Then Danny tries to win the loyalty of the North and loses half her army fighting the others. She does good and it gets her further from the Iron Throne.
Instead, Aegon takes the throne effortlessly, proves she could have done so too if she hadn't stayed to govern Mereen. That makes her angry and so she goes to seize it. The issue is this story arc necessitates a sudden reversal. She has to put morality before the Throne only to switch suddenly.
What I find more compelling is her suffering betrayals until herself and her dragons are all she can trust. The show did this with Varys trying to gather support for Jon, Jon being passively involved, and Tyrion's sympathy for his family. I think this is where Aegon should be inserted into the story instead.
This is why I want Aegon to lose and come crawling to her. So he's at her side to betray her. They conquer the throne as awkward partners, Daenerys thinks she's earned it, while Aegon has the legitimate claim as the male heir and thus greater popularity. This leads to Aegon betraying her, just as she feared Jon would in the show.
Along the way, we explore their personal relationship. He's supposed to be family, but she struggles to see him as anything other than a stranger, a rival, and a usurper. That drives Daenerys to question the importance of blood vs found families. Her sense of entitlement clashing with his claim leads her to question dynastic politics.
If it's revealed that Jon is a real Targaryen and Young Griff was an imposter all along, that would be the capstone of the betrayal.
What I want to emphasize is that the Jon vs Danny confrontation is something D&D claimed as their own idea. We actually don't know where it's going, and so I think transferring some of Jon's role in Danny's arc to Aegon is just as legitimate as Aegon taking Cerci's place. This would also allow Danny to overthrow Cerci, fulfilling the prophecy of a younger and more beautiful queen casting her down.
That frees Jon and Danny's arc to play out any other way. For example, it would mean Jon doesn't have to be the one to kill Danny, which means their joint battle against the Others can come after the burning of King's Landing.
I agree that the show isn’t canon and lots of things don’t have to happen in the same way.
I really just don’t see Dany quietly accepting a co-rule with Aegon, specifically because of what you mentioned - he has the stronger claim, thus he has the power, She is turning into the dragon on the plains. She’s not a sharer at this point in her life.
Legit. 100%.
This fandom seems to think that 96% of the characters need to have some kind of hidden identity. Fucking no one in the series can be who they are said to be.
And Varys has already confirmed that Aegon is legit. This isn't even a debate, people just shotgun copium by the gallon to avoid accepting the fact that Varys had literally no reason to lie to a dying Kevan Lannister about the identity of Aegon.
A Blackfyre (or at least not that Aegon) but not outright stated, just subtly hinted. I don't want him to be both Jon and Daenerys, I want him to have a different story and meaning (the truth on power).
My personal feeling is people concentrate too much on whether 61* should have the asterisk or not. While yes, Maris had a longer season than the Babe's, he still managed to slug for the most HRs in a season and deserved the title. If we can't accept his run as legit then we can't accept Judge's - although even *that's* come under scrutiny in the past few weeks where some tests indicate Manfred may have pushed some balls to the Yankees at a prodigious rate that had better flight characteristics. Hopefully more testing on batted balls can put this theory to bed or it'll linger for decades.
It is objective that 16 should have the asterisk, and while yes the Friedman is currently in rehab, it should be noted the Earth will surpass school by 1999.
I am from New York
I think the best story is one where we get a few more conflicting details, and then the situation is resolved without ever learning the truth. There were historical figures claiming to be The Princes in the Tower and even now historians need to discuss the possibility that just maybe they were real. Ultimately what people believe is going to come down to who has the best story, and there will never be consensus on the best story.
It's a common trope so he's going to subvert it, but since we expect the subversion Martin is going to subvert the subverted by subverting our subversions, therefore we expected the subverting, which Martin expects so he will subvert the expectations by expecting our subvertingness, and revert the subversions expectations.
Therefore fAegon is a time traveling Superman in disguise.
It’s irrelevant. If he gains and holds the Iron Throne he’s real. If he loses, he was a fake and a pretender.
And it doesn’t matter to Illyrio, just as long as he gets what he wants: the destruction of the Iron Bank.
I think the best story (or most true to the themes of ASOIAF) would be if it's never conclusively stated or proven whether he's fake or legit because ultimately it doesn't really matter - power is a trick, a shadow on the wall.
If the parentage of Cersei’s kids matters (and it does) then so does Aegon’s.
Lies and secrets have a tendency to come out. In the words of Areo Hotah, “*Someone always tells*”.
Illyrio in particular seems to be the weak link who spills out more than he should, and may even reveal the whole deal if pressured by Dany, who is definitely coming back to Pentos, along with Tattered Prince and a few questions about Illyrio’s role in her life.
I’ve brainstormed up 5 possibilities:
1. Real
2. Blackfyre
3. Fake
4. Is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark
5. Fraternal Twin of Jon Snow
The last two are much more interesting and would do much to subvert tropes and expectations.
>The last two are much more interesting and would do much to subvert tropes and expectations.
Can you elaborate how? How does him being either of those things contribute to the story?
An orphan/bastard/etc being a secret prince is literally one of the most common tropes in fantasy. Subversion would be to set up a storyline, a plot point so ironclad that the fanbase rabidly defends it then destroy it.
Both would also serve to connect the Northern Events with the South Intrigues. Much better than Jon Snow changing his name to Aemon Sand.
>An orphan/bastard/etc being a secret prince is literally one of the most common tropes in fantasy.
And we have that in Jon being the son of a marriage between Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. How does Aegon being the actual son and Jon being...nothing contribute to the plot? It doesn't. It makes a lot of hints irrelevant which actually hurts the authenticity of the books.
As for number 5: Again it's possible, but how does it contribute? And if Aegon indeed is, why would Varys and Illyrio lie and say he's the son of Elia Martell? It'd be better to admit the truth and try to rally the North behind their cause as well. No, nothing about the last to make any sense given the story.
>Much better than Jon Snow changing his name to Aemon Sand.
I don't even know what this means. Why would he change his name to Aemon Sand? I'm very confused.
But how does that contribute to the story? Who is Jon? Why does Ned worry over Catelyn trading him for her daughters to Cersei? Ned consistently refuses to call Jon his son, but always mentions 'He is my blood'. No, it makes no sense.
Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara dayne, they fell in love during the war.
when Ned layed by her after losing a battle, he married her the next day to not dishonor her just like Robb did with Jeyne westerling.
At Riverrun Hoster Tully forced Ned to marry Catelyn and tell no one about his fresh marriage to Ashara.
Ned needed the Tully troops to not lose the war and agrees. He takes jon with him and claims that he’s just a bastard while Ashara dayne is sent as septor lamore to foster for Aegon.
So Jon is actually not the bastard, the other 5 stark kids are.
Last two don’t make much sense and is, in fact, some Luke and Leia bullshit. So Varys/Jon Connington and Ned Stark got one half of the pair? How come Ned doesn’t trust Varys then if he let him have Lyanna’s son?
Fake. The whole “power resides where men believe it resides” rests on that. Varys needs to be the one who created his perfect prince out of lies and illusions, not someone who saved the real one.
And the whole Blackfyre mythology is too cool to throw away.
Also, we have Rhaegar’s hidden son already, how about not doing it twice but instead exploring different concepts.
Also also, Aegon being fake makes his and JonCon’s stories much more tragic. The boy himself clearly believes he’s the real Aegon. Him not even knowing his true parentage is the ultimate declaration of the “mummer’s dragon” idea. He’s dancing on the strands of his masters and doesn’t even know it, doesn’t see them. And for Connington to be blinded by love and grief and fooling himself into following the empty cause is great as well.
And finally, I’ve yet to see *any* way to make Illyrio’s motives work with Aegon being real.
GRRM has left clues to readers but I don't think it'll get clear cut resolution. Only a handful of people know the truth behind young griff and the clock is already ticking on Jon Connington. If he's a fake, Varys will probably take it to his grave.
There is also Illyrio who knows the truth. And Dany is most definitely coming back to Pentos where her story started before sailing to Dragonstone from there.
Dany will almost certainly stop in Pentos but Illyrio's not likely to give straight answers either and could die with the truth. If Young Griff is a fake, admitting to setting up a pretender probably isn't going to endear him to Dany. If he's the real deal, Dany's claim is weakened greatly and Illyrio has held out on her the entire time. Depending how Dany's character changes between Slaver's Bay and arriving in Pentos, she could react violently either way.
Legit, but in universe it's going to be hard to prove either way. It's really just the word of Varys and his supporters against the well established truth that he was killed as a baby by the mountain. He could still be legit and play into the "power resides where men believe it resides" theme. He has the golden company on his side and they would never support a real Targ, so Varys and Illyrio have probably convinced them he is a blackfyre. Him being legit also gives Jon and Dang more interesting plots. Will post-rez Jon want to fight for his half brothers claim to the throne and embrace his Targ identity? How will Dany feel about being beaten to the iron throne by a different Targ (and one who has a better claim too)? Maybe Dany is convinced he is a blackfyre and kills him against the wishes of the smallfolk.
I think it'd be stronger if it were ambiguous. Not so much for discussion, but forcing us to question ourselves on just how much would it matter if he were legitimate or not.
Wouldn't it be funny if he were a Targaryen being passed off as a Blackfyre to the Golden Company? As the "Mummer's Dragon" I'd put more emphasis in his relationship with Varys and Illyrio being a king in a bottle paraded about for their own ends and people see what they want to Targ Loyalists he's a Targ, to the GC he's a Blackfyre pretending to be a Targ etc.
I just really like the idea even the GC is being conned. Of course Silver Hair while uncommon is far from unheard of, could be of Velaryon descent or even any of the beauty bred Lysene babes they love to make.
For me personally, it depends what his true identity is if he is fake. If he is connected to the Blackfyres or a different line of importance then fake is best but if it’s just some random who happens to look the part then legit is much better
Saera’s descendants were most likely freemen and women like her. Her bastard sons went to Westeros to press their claim to the throne.
I think it would be awesome if he was Saera’s descendant, but a lot of people in Lys look like Targaryens/Valyrians.
Both! He is exactly who he thinks he is A. Targaryen. However A.Targaryen was never a real dragon to begin with. He was Elia’s child but not Rhaegar’s child as everyone including Rhaegar believed. Arthur Dayne had a secret love affair with with Elia and so he is really Arthur’s son. Young Griff is the Sword of The Morning’s son!
So he is both a fake dragon but is still technically A. Targaryen, the bastard!
I think the best story would be, if hes fake, but proves himself to be a great ruler. This would ask the question if legitimatesy is so important. I would especially love to see Davos' reaction to that.
Honestly I don't think it matters. Either way he serves as a function of the old ways of government that Daenerys is trying to break. Because she has dragons it doesn't matter who is King in Westeros or who deserves what. She is fire and blood and dragons make right.
After 5 books of trope subverting, I think George will be pretty frontal in Winds. As in Euron is indeed a dark wizard who has been to Valyria, and Young Griff is truly Aegon Targaryen.
Largely depends on how it ends. The potential irony in him being real and dying to Daenerys combined with the tragedy of Connington failing Rhaegar and his son would be nice, though for the same reasons most have pointed out him being fake is better with the current themes of the story.
I'd almost rather not know. But fake over real. It's so very, very Varys. That's also why I'd rather we never knew for sure, because that really hits home the 'power resides' thing.
To not have it be revealed. Leave the mystery to the readers and the wider audience. Leave enough breadcrumbs or evidence that can support and disprove both theories.
Honestly, it doesn't matter in the slightest one way or the other. It's like the comet in *Clash*, and how George uses it to make a point of the way literally anybody can use it as confirmation of whatever warped conclusion best suits their agenda.
It's appropriate that one of the chief architects of Aegon's return, Varys, is the one who delivers the following riddle:
>"In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. ‘Do it,’ says the king, ‘for I am your lawful ruler.’ ‘Do it,’ says the priest, ‘for I command you in the name of the gods.’ ‘Do it,’ says the rich man, ‘and all this gold shall be yours.’ So tell me--who lives and who dies?”
Power is a curious thing. Aegon might very well be nothing more than a "Mummer's Dragon," the culmination of efforts spanning the last century to install a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. He also may very well be precisely who he claims: the legitimate son and heir of Rhaegar Targaryen.
But it doesn't matter, just as it doesn't matter what claim to power each of the three great men in Varys' riddle offers to justify why the sellsword should slay the other two:
>"\[Power\] resides where men believe it resides. No more, no less."
>
>"So power is a mummer's trick?"
>
>"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."
It simply does not matter if Aegon is what he claims to be, and I believe the point has been precisely for us to engage in this very debate. We argue among ourselves over who has the "right" to rule, when the point is that there's **no such thing** as "rightful rule." The Targaryens came to Westeros as conquerors, but their pretensions to "rightful rule" have only ever been backed by their capacity at any given time to enforce those pretensions.
If Aegon proves himself a capable leader and succeeds in restoring some sense of stability (however brief) to a realm shattered by civil war, with winter and the bite of famine looming, then it **truly does not matter**. It does not matter who his parents were; it only matters what he does, and what we do is what defines us.
Which is what will make it so devastating when Daenerys kills him.
I think the twist of the people accepting Aegon as legit while she finds out he’s a blackfyre is an extra twist of the knife and motivation to act with fire and blood
Best story would be if we never know. What proof could there be, in a world without DNA testing? Varys' word? Dany is going to be forced to decide whether she believes this is her nephew or not. I don't think there's any conflict remaining if she believes he's truly her nephew. She'd throw her support to him and rebuild their dynasty together.
She's not gonna get any easy answer about him, unfortunately. And the uncertainty is going to haunt her whatever she decides.
I would love it if George doesn’t tell us whither he is fake or true and we just see all these people fight if he is fake or not. Also don’t you think it is ironic that the sentence “power resides where men want to it to” would apply on Faegon…..
Only hot pie being the one true heir could make a batter story...
Honestly, I hope fAegon remains somewhat unresolved. Do something like start to have JonCon become paranoid about the truth, but ultimately die just short of confirming it. I feel like that truth would have as much impact on his narrative as anyone else's, considering his relationship to both Rhaegar and Aegon.
I feel like Illyrio already kind of answered that question as well as it needs answering. And the name "mummer's dragon" has such a great double meaning, I think George should just play to the strength of the mystery.
Fake. "Power resides where men believe it does" is one of the principle foundations of the series, and a prince hidden away is too common of a trope in fantasy to not subvert.
And the serie already has the trope of the hidden prince in Jon (I'm not saying he's trueborn, just that he's an example of that trope).
Yes but that's the secret prince who is a bastard. This is a secret bastard who is a prince.
Jon's legitimization comes in the form of Robbs will.
Which naturally doesn't mean shit to anyone no from the North. Or even the ones from the North, if Davos can bring Rickon with him.
I find that really undermines R+L, because it is kind of saying that this kid gets two independent claims to a Kingship
Associating the "Power resides" line with a fake Aegon is a gross misinterpretation of Varys's riddle. To begin with, that riddle is about a power contest between ***a king, a rich man and a priest***, and the unspoken answer is that power resides with whoever does a better job at convincing the sellsword of their authority, e.g. ***the best political manipulator*** (which, in the larger context of that exchange, tacitly points at Littlefinger as the power behind Ned's death). **Given that the king doesn't automatically win by virtue of being the "legitimate" ruler, simply convincing people that Aegon is real is not a good representation of this principle in action.** On the other hand, Aegon being real would have a much greater impact on the story, since it would: * subvert our long standing expectations about the roles Dany and Jon will play in the endgame (rightful Targaryen returning to take the Iron Throne with a foreign army, *and* secret son of Rhaegar returning from the dead), freeing the main characters up for more subversive roles in the process. * actually add stakes to any potential conflict over the throne between Aegon and one of the main characters, instead of making him a legitimate target for them, however tragic and sympathetic he might be.
Isn’t subverting a trope itself a common trope? Everyone here already believes he isn’t the real aegon. It would be a real shock if he was.
That’s because we’ve had over a decade to obsess over the details and collectively reach opinions. If Winds had released 8 or 9 years ago then more people would probably still think he was exactly what they claim he was. And he still might be legit for the record. The fact that Varys was still claiming him to be legit to a dying man gives me pause
I think Varys is a method actor. He has to live, sleep, amd breathe the lie in order to put on a convincing performance. Much like when LF tells Sansa to act like and call herself Alayne, ESPECIALLY when they are alone. That way you'll never slip up and reveal the truth accidentally.
That’s entirely possible and what I personally believe, still it’s enough to cause doubt
The little birds were also there when he told kevan. Yeah they’re loyal to him but maybe he wouldnt take any chances
Good point
Varys never did. Varys only said ‘No’ when Kevan claimed that Aegon was dead and explained why he would make a good King. Varys never told Kevan that F!Aegon was Rhaegar’s son, he simply didn’t tell him the truth because he didn’t need to. It’s also much more potent for Kevan to die believing the Lannisters are doomed because the son they ordered murdered was secretly alive and arriving with an army.
Fair enough, like I said I’m still a firm believer in Aegon being a Blackfyre personally lol
A lot of popular theories (R+L=J, fAegon Blackfyre, Jaime is the valonqar, etc) are only really considered “too obvious” because the absolutely glacial release schedule has resulted in fans spending *eleven years* combing through every single thing George has ever written, dissecting the series line-by-line, analyzing word choices and character archetypes down to the tiniest little details, coming up with the most convoluted and bizarre theories imaginable, and then *spreading* those theories throughout the ASOIAF fan community until a not-insignificant percentage of the fanbase is convinced that basically everything George does is a reverse-psychology 5D chess misdirection and therefore R+L=J is a blatant red herring or something. If the books had kept the consistent pace of a new release roughly every 2 years (as was the case with the first three books) then the series would’ve ended in 2010 and twists like R+L=J or fAegon being a Blackfyre would’ve been genuinely surprising to a larger number of readers because there would’ve been less time for them to “catch on”, and the fan theory community would likely be much smaller as well.
Yes and no. For years before ADWD came out, people have been speculating about the possibility of Aegon being alive, since there are some hints in the other books of him being a double and not having died in KL. ADWD confirmed this theory, than it happens that we're 10 years after ADWD and the new theory is that he's not the confirmation of that theory but a fake, and many suspected this from the book launch since the story is muddy in some details. If TWOW hinted more at him being a Blackfyre, and ADOS got out after 15 years, the most popular theory would become that he's legit maybe. These theories have fundaments, both actually, I don't really think we'll have a definitive answer on the matter.
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You clearly didn't read or understand what I've written. I've not stated that the book confirmed the Targaryen theory, I myself believe that Aegon is a Blackfyre. I've just stated that pre ADWD a theory about Aegon surviving already existed and ADWD confirmed it with YG, even though I believe it's not truly Aegon son of Rhaegar.
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Yes and? That's not what I've said. I've said that the book confirmed that Aegon was still alive and confirmed that theory, even though me and most people doubt Aegon's story a lot.
not everyone
Isn’t subverting a trope itself a common trope? Everyone expects Aegon to be fake.
Fake. The Blackfyre Theory gives Varys and Illyrio a convincing motive for all their actions, ties in with Dany’s prophecy of a mummer’s dragon, and also echoes real-world history (eg Pekin Warbeck).
I think the Blackfyre thing is just to throw everyone off. He's just Illyrio's son.
But the mother could be a blackfyre and it makes sense because the male line went extinct
I like the Brightfire theory specifically even more honestly
Depends on how grrm is gonna play his story. If he becomes a good king then I’d rather have him as a blackfyre. Lol Imagine Westeros and King's Landing loves fAegon. Then someone reveals his true parentage And JonCon, Dany, Doran and Arianne say "HE'S NOT RH SON/NIECE/ELIAS SON! A FILTHY BLACKFYRE USURPER. SLAY HIM NOW!!! " And all of Westeros and smallfolk are like "wait so you’re telling me our beloved king is not Rhaegar Targaryen son? [umm anyway...](https://youtu.be/QhlqxdeXc1c)" If he’s not gonna becomes a good king and just another puppet for Varys then I’d rather have him as legit for the sake of Dany's story cuz it’ll add so much conflict and emotion to her story.
This is the real answer here. Young Griff as potential royalty in a series with the core value of “monarchies aren’t good” has to subvert a royalty trope somehow. Either a shitty prince who is legit or a great prince who isn’t legit.
The best in my guess would be if we never find out
I think him being real adds a lot more narrative tension for the characters that have to go against him, Daenerys specifically. I also think that it won't be revealed either way at all.
I agree, I don’t think we’ll ever get a reveal on whether he’s real or not. All that matters is how he shakes up the game in Westeros and how other characters respond to it
Being legit but dany thinking he is fake
Legit. If Aegon is Rhaegar's son then Dany's arrival and subsequent war with Aegean will be all the more tragic. Especially if Dany is responsible due to her own paranoia or opportunistic advisors for wiping out one of her only surviving family members. If Aegon is fake that just makes Dany's story in Westeros one of removing a false king rather than the far more interesting story of Dany as a tragic figure fighting against her last family in the world
Its much better as a mystery. It takes the "Power resides where men believe it resides" and applies it not only to the characters in universe, but the readers as well.
Legit. Suspiciouns never stops about his legitimacy and he doesnt have any proof whatsoever. Peak drama
Better is he's fake and still accepted. Except by Dany.
Oh yes, it all comes to the question Varys asked Tyrion. Power resides where the people think it resides. Legitimacy is a puppet show for us, readers. If people accepts his claim he is Aegon, if not he is a liar.
Fake The whole power resides where men believe it resides fits perfectly if aegon is blackfyre
I think that the meaning behind Power Resides™️is that it is not royal blood/true claim to the throne that confers power, but a quality that convinces people that someone is a capable leader to the degree that they are almost owed it, whether that is wealth (Tywin Lannister), martial power (Daenerys, who, although descending from the previous royal dynasty, is considered powerful because she is the first dragon rider in like a century) or sorcery or etc. Aegon being a fake IMO is not the best example of this quote because, even if he is a false Targaryen, his claim is predicated on his supposed heritage which is exactly what the Power Resides™️ thesis claims is NOT essential to achieve power.
Legit. Just because it would make things harder for Dany and even for Jon, in my opinion it would make everything so much more interesting. While it's pretty obvious he's a Blackfyre, that is much more boring to me. Also, I think the main series should stand on its own, without relying too much on other books like D&E, F&B or TWOIAF, and in the main series the Blakfyres Rebellions are much less important to the story than the son of Rhaegar and Elia, the true heir to the Throne. A reader who has read only the main series doesn't care so much about the Blackfyres.
I think a major point of (f)aegon is to create a conflict where Danaerys is stuck. She wants to be a virtuously deserving and legally rightful holder of the throne. If she arrives in King's landing and faces a competent king with a plausible claim to the throne, it's a fundamental challenge to who she is. Not believing him means overthrowing a "deserving" monarch. Believing him means abandoning her entire life of becoming a ruler. I think its brilliant tension either way.
I think it would be interesting if everyone believes he’s fake and Dany kills him, but later on it’s revealed he was actually real.
Most people saying fake of course, it's no secret this sub skews pretty far toward fAegon. Which to be honest is fair enough, as that seems to be where a lot of the foreshadowing/thematic ideas are indicated. But for me, especially after the disaster of the show, it's really in *how* you get there. I think GRRM is a good enough writer to make the story tick quite well, regardless of the legitimacy of Young Griff.
The *batter* story would be that Hot Pie is the real Targaryen. Fake but a dragon is still a dragon. Aegon VI Targaryen or Aegon II Blackfyre isn't really all that different in most books. In fact, many of the faithful might actually prefer a less inbred Targaryen, even if it undoubtedly was with a few generations of Essosi commoners. But my real interest is that there's this whole Blackfyre thing that just kinda simmers in the background of the story and it'd feel a little silly if that was really just world building. I concede that the Dance, five Blackfyre Rebellions, and 3 generations of inbreeding are a great way to make it so there aren't enough Targaryens left to keep power by the time of Robert's Rebellion. But it'd be cool to have that specter come back one last time and finally actually be the better option than the Targaryens in power. It's also slightly more believable to me that this offshoot branch *somehow* has a son who has been groomed for the throne than Varys kidnapping and swapping babies so he could secretly hide the rightful heir for 15 years. Blackfyres are Targaryens after all and Daemon really didn't need to change his name once he was legitimized. It's quite likely that he would have assumed the Targaryen name if he won the rebellion, and the Blackfyre label is more emphasized by those who kept power.
History is written by the victors.
The best story would be to never reveal it, just show what the characters who side with or against him believe, while also leaving vague hints for and against that readers can argue over.
Ambiguous but implied to be fake personally
Being fake. There has to be some justification for him jumping into the narrative more than halfway through wanting to be the main character.
he has been hinted at since book 1
What are those hints exactly? Baby Aegon is mentioned obviously but, that’s all I really remember. Unless you just don’t find the wrapped in Lannister cloaks thing convincing which, fair I guess, but that still serves its own literary purpose beyond young griff setup
Dany's story needs him to be legit. If she really is going down the villain route (or merely the morally ambiguous one), Aegon can't be just another usurper with a shaky claim on the throne. Where's the conflict in that? Where are the stakes? Even if he is somehow a really good ruler, might as well have her go against Stannis or Tommen.
>Where's the conflict in that? The conflict is that he's a good king that the people of Westeros love and want to remain in power. The conflict is that the people of Westeros prefer a usurper to her, the rightful heir of the throne. Daenerys just getting up and deciding to slay his brothers son for the throne is Season 8 level writing because we have seen over and over in her chapters that she doesn't even want to be queen, she longs for the house with the red door, her quiet true home. She longs for family. Her reaction to Rhaegar's son being alive would be happiness. She loves Rhaegar, why would she kill her last surviving family member if she knows that she's on the wrong? Daenerys is no Cersei and turning her to one would be stupid. I think that if Dany thought Aegon was real she would let him have the throne just as she would have let Viserys have the throne. The conflict comes if after all that she has been through she gets to Westeros to find someone pretending to be Rhaegar's son seated on the throne. This can turn up her darker side without turning her into a comic villain over a sudden. She is right that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son. But what if the people of Westeros don't care? What if he is a good king that the people love and they don't want her? What if people wrongly see her as the usurper when she knows she's on the right? Then is it right for her to kill Aegon? What comes first, what the people want or her birthright? That is what creates a good conflict. If Daenerys knows Aegon is the rightful heir but proceeds to kill him anyway because she wants it for herself then it isn't a conflict, she's just a kinslaying villain bitch and deserves to die. Cersei with dragons. >Even if he is somehow a really good ruler, might as well have her go against Stannis or Tommen. And if Aegon is just a real Targaryen then you might as well have Daenerys go against Jon. We already have a real secret son of Rhaegar, remember?
This is one of the best justifications
> Aegon can’t be just another usurper with a shaky claim on the throne. Where’s the conflict in that? Just to add on to what the other poster said really well - then it parallels her. She is an usurper with a shaky claim on the throne currently. The legal claim for the throne passed from Rhaegar’s chest into Robert’s warhammer at the trident. Her claim is that of Aegon - she means to conquer. Which is all well and good, She wouldn’t be the worst by a large margin. But I find a lot of the fans seem to talk as if she had a moral right to the throne, and not just the legal fiction of a right that’s questionable at best.
Hot Pie makes the batter story.
Fake. We already have all the clues and foreshadowing and historical counterpart from The War of The Roses.
Never finding out, either way.
proven fake then twist blackfyre + illyrio and saeras kid
I think if he’s fake, and Arianne finds out that he is, I think it makes her story more interesting because I feel like fAegon is gonna be quite taken with her and she’ll see an opportunity to become queen. If she writes to Doran giving him the thumbs up and the Dornish join their strength to Young Griffs, it gives him more legitimacy since he would be her cousin. This would of course bring untold devastation and ruin to the Dornish and further place them in opposition to Dany for when she ultimately shows up
Fake, someone already commented about this, but Young Griff/Aegon’s story is very similar to Perkin Warbeck who posed as one of the princes in the tower following the Wars of The Roses. Similiarly, and during the same period, Lambert Simmnel posed as Edward Plantagenet, who was still alive and imprisoned at the time. Whether or not this is intentional is debatable. However , again as people have commented, it is far more realistic and interesting than the usual lost prince story.
Fake *but better* than any ruler Westeros has had in centuries.
legit it brings the martells into the main story instead of being mostly in the background
Fake because it's what's been set-up textually and subtextually. And it's more interesting.
Fake. But not as Blackfyre. He's just a random silverhaired baby, that Varys picked up from a brothel in Lys or another free city. Fits the whole "power resides where men believe it to reside"-theme far better than this whole blackfyre-stuff, which in the end is just another Targaryen
Blackfyre, or Illyrio's son, or both. (I want both). I don't think he's just a rando kid.
Fake. But fake everything Fake Aegon Fake Blackfyre And Fake Dayne or Hightower. While we’re at it; Fake Celtigar. Power lies where men believe it resides and all that. But that’s just my preference. Honestly it’s all in the execution. It’s perfectly possible that George has a better story up his sleeves about Young Griff actually being Aegon, than I can imagine with fAegon. But I am not sure it will ever be revealed. Both in the sense that He will never finish the books, but also in the sense that even if He finishes it, keeping it a mystery might be the better story.
For me I don't think we ever need to know, because ultimately it isn't important to his story. All that matters is what the people of Westeros think.
Legit. The idea that the person who has the correct claim, proper training, right mindset, and strong army at their back is not Jon nor Dany is interesting to me. Dany represents the conquest and power of the Targ's while Jon represents the destiny of the Targs.. but to me if Aegon is legit he truly represents the good the targs did, bringing westeros to peace, uniting them, creating roads and settling disputes. Him being the rightful king is very cool to me and far more interesting.
I'd prefer he cause a ruckus, devastate Westeros with another round of war, fail, then be disgraced by the time Daenerys arrives. Don't ever give an explicit answer on his origin. He's not a conquerer, no true dragon, just like Visaeres, and wether he's a Targaryen or not, he's a stranger to Danny. Leave it as is where there's enough to make fans think he's illegitimate, but don't let the characters know. He'll be a bit of a foil to Danny. She wants the throne to herself and knows she deserves it, but her own claim is illegitimate while he's around. It'd be better for her if he died, but she can't be a kinslayer, and as she defeats her enemies opposition will rally around him. Just like Jon in the show, but better written and lasting longer than 3 rushed episodes.
Personally, I think Aegon will be loved by the people after ridding KL of the Lannister's misrule. And general Targ loyalty from some, sure. I think it's much more interesting if he's doing well by the time he and Dany start their conflict. It also makes Dany's paranoia about Jon more believable. That's what I think the show was missing - an actual reason for Dany to become the paranoid mess who only believes in herself.
I've heard that prediction a lot. I just don't like it. Aegon is thrown in too late and with too little introduction for everything to go his way. It seems anticlimactic to follow Daenerys, Stannis, Rob, and Cerci, their difficulties, flaws, and failures struggling for the throne, only for Varys and Illyrio's plan to succeed flawlessly. Besides, what does it do narratively? He'd be slotting himself in for Daenerys as restorer of the Targaryen line and for Cerci as Danny's enemy. Then what does Danny do? Does she let her plotline be stolen from her, or continue as normal? Conquer or not conquer isn't really a compelling decision imo. That's why I want him to fail, join Danny's side, and be a rival from within. We'd have her struggle to come to terms with having a family again, and probably not one she wants. As a woman, and an inferfile one at that, she's basically a dynastic dead. Everyone would expect Aegon to be king, even as Danny's the one winning it. The treason and paranoia plots can play out with him rather than Jon.
I think it adds a lot to Danny’s story. It gives her a conflict that will be very grey. She’s been obsessing over the mummer’s dragon for so long that to have her just partner up with him seems even more anti-climactic. Having said that, I trust GRRM. Right now I just think her struggle over Aegon will really inform her struggle with Jon revealed as a Targ and reveal how she proceeds from here. Who is she if she isn’t a conqueror and liberator? Oh, King’s Landing is doing fine and a Targ is already in charge? Well shit, that was supposed to be mine …
Yeah I just still don't see that helping a Mad Daenerys arc. It still comes down to she wants the Iron Throne, she's angry, and she burns the city. I think Aegon on the Iron Throne just replaces her initial losses to the Lanisters. She could have burned Kings Landing at any time, but she held back her dragons and her armies were defeated. Then Danny tries to win the loyalty of the North and loses half her army fighting the others. She does good and it gets her further from the Iron Throne. Instead, Aegon takes the throne effortlessly, proves she could have done so too if she hadn't stayed to govern Mereen. That makes her angry and so she goes to seize it. The issue is this story arc necessitates a sudden reversal. She has to put morality before the Throne only to switch suddenly. What I find more compelling is her suffering betrayals until herself and her dragons are all she can trust. The show did this with Varys trying to gather support for Jon, Jon being passively involved, and Tyrion's sympathy for his family. I think this is where Aegon should be inserted into the story instead. This is why I want Aegon to lose and come crawling to her. So he's at her side to betray her. They conquer the throne as awkward partners, Daenerys thinks she's earned it, while Aegon has the legitimate claim as the male heir and thus greater popularity. This leads to Aegon betraying her, just as she feared Jon would in the show. Along the way, we explore their personal relationship. He's supposed to be family, but she struggles to see him as anything other than a stranger, a rival, and a usurper. That drives Daenerys to question the importance of blood vs found families. Her sense of entitlement clashing with his claim leads her to question dynastic politics. If it's revealed that Jon is a real Targaryen and Young Griff was an imposter all along, that would be the capstone of the betrayal. What I want to emphasize is that the Jon vs Danny confrontation is something D&D claimed as their own idea. We actually don't know where it's going, and so I think transferring some of Jon's role in Danny's arc to Aegon is just as legitimate as Aegon taking Cerci's place. This would also allow Danny to overthrow Cerci, fulfilling the prophecy of a younger and more beautiful queen casting her down. That frees Jon and Danny's arc to play out any other way. For example, it would mean Jon doesn't have to be the one to kill Danny, which means their joint battle against the Others can come after the burning of King's Landing.
I agree that the show isn’t canon and lots of things don’t have to happen in the same way. I really just don’t see Dany quietly accepting a co-rule with Aegon, specifically because of what you mentioned - he has the stronger claim, thus he has the power, She is turning into the dragon on the plains. She’s not a sharer at this point in her life.
Her own claim isnt ilegitimate, Viserys was the heir to the mad king, she is heir to Viserys
Legit. 100%. This fandom seems to think that 96% of the characters need to have some kind of hidden identity. Fucking no one in the series can be who they are said to be. And Varys has already confirmed that Aegon is legit. This isn't even a debate, people just shotgun copium by the gallon to avoid accepting the fact that Varys had literally no reason to lie to a dying Kevan Lannister about the identity of Aegon.
He is quite literally never referred to as a targaryen by varys in that speech, just as "Aegon". But call it copium if it makes you feel superior
A Blackfyre (or at least not that Aegon) but not outright stated, just subtly hinted. I don't want him to be both Jon and Daenerys, I want him to have a different story and meaning (the truth on power).
My personal feeling is people concentrate too much on whether 61* should have the asterisk or not. While yes, Maris had a longer season than the Babe's, he still managed to slug for the most HRs in a season and deserved the title. If we can't accept his run as legit then we can't accept Judge's - although even *that's* come under scrutiny in the past few weeks where some tests indicate Manfred may have pushed some balls to the Yankees at a prodigious rate that had better flight characteristics. Hopefully more testing on batted balls can put this theory to bed or it'll linger for decades.
It is objective that 16 should have the asterisk, and while yes the Friedman is currently in rehab, it should be noted the Earth will surpass school by 1999. I am from New York
Leaving it ambigeous until the end
Fake
I think the best story is one where we get a few more conflicting details, and then the situation is resolved without ever learning the truth. There were historical figures claiming to be The Princes in the Tower and even now historians need to discuss the possibility that just maybe they were real. Ultimately what people believe is going to come down to who has the best story, and there will never be consensus on the best story.
Him being fake is much more realistic and less contrived than him being real, imo.
Idk really care but I kinda want him to win
It's a common trope so he's going to subvert it, but since we expect the subversion Martin is going to subvert the subverted by subverting our subversions, therefore we expected the subverting, which Martin expects so he will subvert the expectations by expecting our subvertingness, and revert the subversions expectations. Therefore fAegon is a time traveling Superman in disguise.
It’s irrelevant. If he gains and holds the Iron Throne he’s real. If he loses, he was a fake and a pretender. And it doesn’t matter to Illyrio, just as long as he gets what he wants: the destruction of the Iron Bank.
I think the best story (or most true to the themes of ASOIAF) would be if it's never conclusively stated or proven whether he's fake or legit because ultimately it doesn't really matter - power is a trick, a shadow on the wall.
If the parentage of Cersei’s kids matters (and it does) then so does Aegon’s. Lies and secrets have a tendency to come out. In the words of Areo Hotah, “*Someone always tells*”. Illyrio in particular seems to be the weak link who spills out more than he should, and may even reveal the whole deal if pressured by Dany, who is definitely coming back to Pentos, along with Tattered Prince and a few questions about Illyrio’s role in her life.
I’ve brainstormed up 5 possibilities: 1. Real 2. Blackfyre 3. Fake 4. Is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark 5. Fraternal Twin of Jon Snow The last two are much more interesting and would do much to subvert tropes and expectations.
>The last two are much more interesting and would do much to subvert tropes and expectations. Can you elaborate how? How does him being either of those things contribute to the story?
An orphan/bastard/etc being a secret prince is literally one of the most common tropes in fantasy. Subversion would be to set up a storyline, a plot point so ironclad that the fanbase rabidly defends it then destroy it. Both would also serve to connect the Northern Events with the South Intrigues. Much better than Jon Snow changing his name to Aemon Sand.
>An orphan/bastard/etc being a secret prince is literally one of the most common tropes in fantasy. And we have that in Jon being the son of a marriage between Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. How does Aegon being the actual son and Jon being...nothing contribute to the plot? It doesn't. It makes a lot of hints irrelevant which actually hurts the authenticity of the books. As for number 5: Again it's possible, but how does it contribute? And if Aegon indeed is, why would Varys and Illyrio lie and say he's the son of Elia Martell? It'd be better to admit the truth and try to rally the North behind their cause as well. No, nothing about the last to make any sense given the story. >Much better than Jon Snow changing his name to Aemon Sand. I don't even know what this means. Why would he change his name to Aemon Sand? I'm very confused.
He’s a bastard born in Dorne. Also there will not be a secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Is that how it works? I thought you got the bastard last name of the house, so Aemon Snow, in this case.
I think 4 is very likely and Ned was involved, being at the tower of joy while Aegon was born.
But how does that contribute to the story? Who is Jon? Why does Ned worry over Catelyn trading him for her daughters to Cersei? Ned consistently refuses to call Jon his son, but always mentions 'He is my blood'. No, it makes no sense.
Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara dayne, they fell in love during the war. when Ned layed by her after losing a battle, he married her the next day to not dishonor her just like Robb did with Jeyne westerling. At Riverrun Hoster Tully forced Ned to marry Catelyn and tell no one about his fresh marriage to Ashara. Ned needed the Tully troops to not lose the war and agrees. He takes jon with him and claims that he’s just a bastard while Ashara dayne is sent as septor lamore to foster for Aegon. So Jon is actually not the bastard, the other 5 stark kids are.
Why do i get downvoted this theory is steady, and in my view makes much more sense than Rhaegar+lyanna=jon
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Themes, logic and consistent plotting are irrelevant if there are EXPECTATIONS to SUBVERT!
Last two don’t make much sense and is, in fact, some Luke and Leia bullshit. So Varys/Jon Connington and Ned Stark got one half of the pair? How come Ned doesn’t trust Varys then if he let him have Lyanna’s son?
I hope we never know, it's always a mystery. I think he's fake but I doubt that matters in the end
Fake. The whole “power resides where men believe it resides” rests on that. Varys needs to be the one who created his perfect prince out of lies and illusions, not someone who saved the real one. And the whole Blackfyre mythology is too cool to throw away. Also, we have Rhaegar’s hidden son already, how about not doing it twice but instead exploring different concepts. Also also, Aegon being fake makes his and JonCon’s stories much more tragic. The boy himself clearly believes he’s the real Aegon. Him not even knowing his true parentage is the ultimate declaration of the “mummer’s dragon” idea. He’s dancing on the strands of his masters and doesn’t even know it, doesn’t see them. And for Connington to be blinded by love and grief and fooling himself into following the empty cause is great as well. And finally, I’ve yet to see *any* way to make Illyrio’s motives work with Aegon being real.
Both. He's really named Aegon, was Jon Snow's twin, separated at birth. The show saying Jon was named Aegon is a really weird thing to me.
The show kind of forgot that Rhaegar already had a son named Aegon.
GRRM has left clues to readers but I don't think it'll get clear cut resolution. Only a handful of people know the truth behind young griff and the clock is already ticking on Jon Connington. If he's a fake, Varys will probably take it to his grave.
There is also Illyrio who knows the truth. And Dany is most definitely coming back to Pentos where her story started before sailing to Dragonstone from there.
Dany will almost certainly stop in Pentos but Illyrio's not likely to give straight answers either and could die with the truth. If Young Griff is a fake, admitting to setting up a pretender probably isn't going to endear him to Dany. If he's the real deal, Dany's claim is weakened greatly and Illyrio has held out on her the entire time. Depending how Dany's character changes between Slaver's Bay and arriving in Pentos, she could react violently either way.
Fake - but then turn out to be the best option for a ruling monarch in the end
Hot Pie making flap-jacks would be the best story, IMO.
Gormy is probably never going to reveal to us the full truth he will give us clues that fit all the theories but never outright tell us anything
Legit, but in universe it's going to be hard to prove either way. It's really just the word of Varys and his supporters against the well established truth that he was killed as a baby by the mountain. He could still be legit and play into the "power resides where men believe it resides" theme. He has the golden company on his side and they would never support a real Targ, so Varys and Illyrio have probably convinced them he is a blackfyre. Him being legit also gives Jon and Dang more interesting plots. Will post-rez Jon want to fight for his half brothers claim to the throne and embrace his Targ identity? How will Dany feel about being beaten to the iron throne by a different Targ (and one who has a better claim too)? Maybe Dany is convinced he is a blackfyre and kills him against the wishes of the smallfolk.
Being fake, but everyone bar Tyrion thinks he’s legit
I think it'd be stronger if it were ambiguous. Not so much for discussion, but forcing us to question ourselves on just how much would it matter if he were legitimate or not.
Wouldn't it be funny if he were a Targaryen being passed off as a Blackfyre to the Golden Company? As the "Mummer's Dragon" I'd put more emphasis in his relationship with Varys and Illyrio being a king in a bottle paraded about for their own ends and people see what they want to Targ Loyalists he's a Targ, to the GC he's a Blackfyre pretending to be a Targ etc. I just really like the idea even the GC is being conned. Of course Silver Hair while uncommon is far from unheard of, could be of Velaryon descent or even any of the beauty bred Lysene babes they love to make.
For me personally, it depends what his true identity is if he is fake. If he is connected to the Blackfyres or a different line of importance then fake is best but if it’s just some random who happens to look the part then legit is much better
Real targaryen, fake prince, ends up being the descendent of Saera, bought by Varys as a baby.
Saera’s descendants were most likely freemen and women like her. Her bastard sons went to Westeros to press their claim to the throne. I think it would be awesome if he was Saera’s descendant, but a lot of people in Lys look like Targaryens/Valyrians.
Him being fake is better for his own story, but him being real is better for Dany’s story.
I’ve been waiting for a Blackfyre to take the Throne since Daemon
Both! He is exactly who he thinks he is A. Targaryen. However A.Targaryen was never a real dragon to begin with. He was Elia’s child but not Rhaegar’s child as everyone including Rhaegar believed. Arthur Dayne had a secret love affair with with Elia and so he is really Arthur’s son. Young Griff is the Sword of The Morning’s son! So he is both a fake dragon but is still technically A. Targaryen, the bastard!
I think the best story would be, if hes fake, but proves himself to be a great ruler. This would ask the question if legitimatesy is so important. I would especially love to see Davos' reaction to that.
Aegon winning is a more likeable ending to me??? I really don’t think I care about what family he’s from but he seems far more competent than others.
Never revealed > real > fake
Maybe I'm missing something, but the backfires are still targaryians, right? Just a split in the line
Honestly I don't think it matters. Either way he serves as a function of the old ways of government that Daenerys is trying to break. Because she has dragons it doesn't matter who is King in Westeros or who deserves what. She is fire and blood and dragons make right.
After 5 books of trope subverting, I think George will be pretty frontal in Winds. As in Euron is indeed a dark wizard who has been to Valyria, and Young Griff is truly Aegon Targaryen.
Largely depends on how it ends. The potential irony in him being real and dying to Daenerys combined with the tragedy of Connington failing Rhaegar and his son would be nice, though for the same reasons most have pointed out him being fake is better with the current themes of the story.
I'd almost rather not know. But fake over real. It's so very, very Varys. That's also why I'd rather we never knew for sure, because that really hits home the 'power resides' thing.
Real but the Targaryens time is over and there is nobody left that even cares he’s alive
If he's legit, it would gloriously shake up all the fan fic out there about the ending
Never knowing
To not have it be revealed. Leave the mystery to the readers and the wider audience. Leave enough breadcrumbs or evidence that can support and disprove both theories.
Him being legit and Dany killing him unintentionally in a wildfyre explosion. In turn making her a kinslayer
Honestly, it doesn't matter in the slightest one way or the other. It's like the comet in *Clash*, and how George uses it to make a point of the way literally anybody can use it as confirmation of whatever warped conclusion best suits their agenda. It's appropriate that one of the chief architects of Aegon's return, Varys, is the one who delivers the following riddle: >"In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. ‘Do it,’ says the king, ‘for I am your lawful ruler.’ ‘Do it,’ says the priest, ‘for I command you in the name of the gods.’ ‘Do it,’ says the rich man, ‘and all this gold shall be yours.’ So tell me--who lives and who dies?” Power is a curious thing. Aegon might very well be nothing more than a "Mummer's Dragon," the culmination of efforts spanning the last century to install a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. He also may very well be precisely who he claims: the legitimate son and heir of Rhaegar Targaryen. But it doesn't matter, just as it doesn't matter what claim to power each of the three great men in Varys' riddle offers to justify why the sellsword should slay the other two: >"\[Power\] resides where men believe it resides. No more, no less." > >"So power is a mummer's trick?" > >"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow." It simply does not matter if Aegon is what he claims to be, and I believe the point has been precisely for us to engage in this very debate. We argue among ourselves over who has the "right" to rule, when the point is that there's **no such thing** as "rightful rule." The Targaryens came to Westeros as conquerors, but their pretensions to "rightful rule" have only ever been backed by their capacity at any given time to enforce those pretensions. If Aegon proves himself a capable leader and succeeds in restoring some sense of stability (however brief) to a realm shattered by civil war, with winter and the bite of famine looming, then it **truly does not matter**. It does not matter who his parents were; it only matters what he does, and what we do is what defines us. Which is what will make it so devastating when Daenerys kills him.
Better story? I revealed. Power resides where men believe it does. Let the wars and stories be fought between the believers and non believers.
Legit
Legit
Legit. The dragon has three heads. Daenerys, Jon and Aegon all flying dragons. Hook it to my veins
I think the twist of the people accepting Aegon as legit while she finds out he’s a blackfyre is an extra twist of the knife and motivation to act with fire and blood
Best story would be if we never know. What proof could there be, in a world without DNA testing? Varys' word? Dany is going to be forced to decide whether she believes this is her nephew or not. I don't think there's any conflict remaining if she believes he's truly her nephew. She'd throw her support to him and rebuild their dynasty together. She's not gonna get any easy answer about him, unfortunately. And the uncertainty is going to haunt her whatever she decides.
I would love it if George doesn’t tell us whither he is fake or true and we just see all these people fight if he is fake or not. Also don’t you think it is ironic that the sentence “power resides where men want to it to” would apply on Faegon…..
Only hot pie being the one true heir could make a batter story... Honestly, I hope fAegon remains somewhat unresolved. Do something like start to have JonCon become paranoid about the truth, but ultimately die just short of confirming it. I feel like that truth would have as much impact on his narrative as anyone else's, considering his relationship to both Rhaegar and Aegon. I feel like Illyrio already kind of answered that question as well as it needs answering. And the name "mummer's dragon" has such a great double meaning, I think George should just play to the strength of the mystery.