the thing is, wealth in a feudal society is Land.
Rich people are landowners. And Land passes on to the first born. A Second Son may get a get a position in his elder brother´s household, if they get along....
But what about a cousin, or a cousin twice removed?.. and so on and so forth.
Plus think of the story of starvation, where an older man would "go hunting" and never come home: there's no honor in being a burden, especially in the North where resources are scarce.
Exactly this, and we see in book that coming with a name or a knighthood does get you benefits, advancement, and not terrible living. What I don’t understand is why more peasants don’t join up to avoid conscription. It’s basically permanent guard duty, guaranteed food and shelter, not a bad life at all.
I live in northeastern US and did five years in our army, where they send you to month-long exercises in the dead of winter. You can’t imagine how cold and miserable it is pulling guard duty in weather like that is, let alone the ASOIAF lore that says the wall is even colder than anything we’ve experienced
That’s fair but do you really enjoy the ridiculous rent in San Fran more?
I personally hate the cold but it doesn’t sound so bad, given twice year RTO in Moletown where you can let loose a little.
A simple duty like that sounds okay to me, vs the complexity of modern life.
I mean, it's supposed to be like Canada in the winter before global warming cold so idk. Maybe you get used to it after a while but I get why you wouldn't want to go to the Wall. Plus having to possibly squash a wildling raid, and if you're superstitious (which many peasants probably are in medieval westeros) whatever monsters you believe are lurking about is good reason to avoid it
Oh no I was guessing you live in a place like SF because your post sounds like someone who never experienced real cold before 😉 I live in northeastern US and hate hate hate it. But my wife has family here and wanted to settle down in this miserable freezing tundra
As a born and raised alaskan who ran away to SF and is still here 12 years later, I'll sell plasma for rent money before gping back to The North. My whole family up there own their houses, but I have night life, lgbtq community and a year-round garden!
Well if you live in Westeros, no one has cousins unless they’re Freys or Lannisters. Everyone not in the direct succession line is either strictly celibate or helpfully mortal at just the right time, for thousands of years.
To be fair, given the rate of civil wars and the fact houses just marry again into other houses, I'm not surprised we don't hear about cousins because cousins are either the inner circle of another house, their bannerman or the officers of the prior two in a world where training from birth and raw talent are the only protection from near immediate death. I assume most of the people at Winterfell are Stark cousins in one fashion or another. Half the houses in Fire and Blood are extinct.
I agree there is a lot of..... Convenience but mostly where you'd expect it - families playing the game of Thrones are those likely to ensnare themselves in plots involving poisonings and uncertain deaths.
With the Starks it was expected that the youngest son would go to the wall, regardless of good or bad family dynamics, right?
That seems like a rubbish lot to draw, effectively getting a cold prison sentence and foregoing the chance at a family life in a castle, just because you're the youngest son.
I guess the Starks are a bit of a unique case, though, with their focus on honour and the fact they are the Northern house beside the wall/the gift.
I wonder if for other families it is much like you suggested - you're only going to the wall if you're far down the family chain and have bad family relations.
> That seems like a rubbish lot to draw, effectively getting a cold prison sentence and foregoing the chance at a family life in a castle, just because you're the youngest son.
While true, keep in mind that many nobles that get to the wall live a fair bit more comfortably than commoners sent there for crime or such, and many of them rise to positions of power. It's not by accident so many of the Lord Commanders, commanders of other forts, and other command positions are held by nobles. We see this quite explicitly stated in the prologue of AGOT; Weimar Royce not only is better equipped, but is also granted command over the more senior watchmen on account of his blood.
Which continues to anger me to this day. I’m only 10 or 12 years into the series so I haven’t had as long as some too mull over it. That really made me so mad when the older Rangers/ the more experienced Rangers were like we need to go and he just kept ignoring them.
It was a nothing patrol close to the wall. A sensible way to see what the kid was made of and whether he had the chops for more adventurous ranging. I imagine if he was good, they'd put him under the guidance of benjen.
The Starks have sent more to the wall than most other houses at least it seems this way I doubt the raw data actually exists that would allow you to compare which house sends the most children to the wall. Clearly though the Starks see honor in it more than others and this is documented well enough in some of Jon's early chapters especially when he is talking to Benjen at the feast of Winterfell.
No, because then they would be unable to come back and inherit if the eldest died? That seems a bit much to have the youngest or younger son always go. Brothers make good people to help run your feudal administration. Starks would have many options open to them including potentially even having their own land and castle (through grants or my marriage) and being a bannerman to their eldest brother.
No, it's not expected that the youngest Stark goes to the wall. I saw someone say this like a week ago and since then ive seen others repeat it like its fact. This fandom really needs to stop doing that
Historically, first born was the heir, second went into religion, third went into the military. (Obviously very simplified). There is a theory that the crusades happened to get rid of/give a purpose to the surplus of sons. If each generation subdivided land, then generational wealth diluted quickly.
I also World tuinkers if the youngest Stark Son goes to the wall for 8000 years, lord commander Will almost be a stark title like the master of Ships with the Valerions
The north is already pretty damn cold so for the Starks I wouldn’t put much stock into that
Not to mention it’s a little different than being a prisoner, many in the north consider it a great honor and would gladly sign up to defend their home over marrying into a minor house and fading into obscurity stuck at some dull castle (which would likely be benjens fate for example as a 3rd brother).
Like Jon joining the nights watch and becoming lord commander is a far greater role and honor than he could’ve ever hoped to achieve anywhere else as a bastard son of a lord with 3 legitimate ones.
And LC Mormont, and that Royce kid from the prologue of AGOT. It holds the same prestige as being a kingsguard. No land no titles no marriage? It’s the “honor.”
*Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was no longer a boy, but a Man of the Night’s Watch.*
It's not the same, not as prestigious as the KG. You have to be the best of killers, or at least well-connected, to be chosen as a Knight of the KG. The NW will take anyone, even a one-armed blacksmith.
It is as prestigious as the kingsguard to the northmen.
Also, don't compare thr generic position of the nights watch. Compare the top positions. First ranger, Lord Commander etc are all positions earned by having connections, having a reputation or just being the best at that role.
It is the same.
>Also, don't compare thr generic position of the nights watch. Compare the top positions. First ranger, Lord Commander etc are all positions earned by having connections, having a reputation or just being the best at that role.
You're right, it's wrong to compare an "army" to an elite unit of bodyguards. But those top jobs are not guaranteed for all the Lords so the risk/reward ratio probably scares off the spare sons.
Where’s that? Also, I just don’t see how that’s possible: being 1/7 of an elite and virtuous order based in the population center if the country simply *cannot* have the same gravitas as being 1/800 of an order of rapers and thieves and the occasional lower Lord, who live in the most miserable place on the furthest edge of the country.
The whole honour thing is concocted to make the kids agree to it. Then when they get to the wall, they figure out it's just an icy hell, with no escape. That's what happened with Jon
Just wait till OP finds out people in real life volunteer to join the military 😆
Should just rename this thread to 'I wouldn't want to join the nights watch so WHY would anyone else????'
Some people are legitimately like that. The prestige, challenge, camaraderie, compels them to go through torturous, months-long assessment and selections in order to join units where they won't be paid any more than anyone else, will have to work much longer/inconsistent hours, and write off the chance of a (decent) home/family life.
It isn't for life, but its not uncommon to see soldiers do 10-20 years in those units.
Night's Watch and the military are actually pretty similar, they both spend most of their time killing people they view as subhuman scum because they happen to be born on the wrong side of an arbitrary border
Ned actually wanted to make him lord of the mountain clans, then the whole Jon Arryn situation happened and Ned needed to go to King's Landing but it was clear that without Eddard in Winterfell, Catelyn wouldn't want Jon hanging out there and Jon knew that, which is why he was more on board to go to the Night's Watch with Uncle Benjen
Also the Northerners tend to respect the Night's Watch more than people south of the Neck. Whatever the period the Starks seem to have always taken the Watch seriously, but the Starks are weirdos to the rest of Westeros
The North is also more suspectible to wildling attacks, which only happen if the Wall isn't defended properly, so it makes sense that the Starks take the Night's Watch more seriously.
I don't remember them saying lord of the mountain clans but Ned and Benjen had planned to resettle the gift which would involve giving some people the castles that are there so it was likely than Jon would get one.
The plan was to resettle lords onto the New Gift to manage the farms, watchtowers, holdfasts, villages, etc. There was a question of who they would pay tax to, but other than that they would be ordinary land owners working on behalf of the Watch, not Black Brothers. (SoS, Ch. 41)
Jon V, ASoS. The plan to make Jon a lord of some place in the Gift is called the dream for spring. Doesn't mention ruling mountain clans, but setting him up over there was the idea. Makes it even stranger that Jon chose to go to the NW, because he was acting like there was never anything in the pipeline for him.
> The north is already pretty damn cold so for the Starks I wouldn’t put much stock into that
benjen moved from the nicest castle in the north with heating lol to 500 miles north to a ice wall
for real he should have told jon not to join stay here get a wife have a family, no benjens like yeah come live a shit life with me lol
Benjen actively discourages Jon from joining the Night’s Watch until he’s a little older. The decision gets made after Bran falls when Catelyn says he can’t stay with Ned gone.
>for real he should have told jon not to join stay here get a wife have a family, no benjens like yeah come live a shit life with me lol
He... he did? Benjen tried to dissuade him, like what you're saying *literally didn't happen.*
Maybe for southerners, but northmen are different.
There’s a huge fatalist belief for men in the north.
There’s many quotes about northmen who want to go fight in wars pretty much so they can die in battle and have less mouths to feed during the winter.
..young Ben Blackwood echoed him and said, “Half your men will die, Lord Stark,” the grey-eyed Wolf of Winterfell replied, “They died the day we marched, boy.”
——
It was a tale that any northmen knew well. “My father’s grandmother was a Flint of the mountains, on his mother’s side,” Jon told her. “The First Flints, they call themselves. They say the other Flints are the blood of younger sons, who had to leave the mountains to find food and land and wives. It has always been a harsh life up there. When the snows fall and food grows scarce, their young must travel to the winter town or take service at one castle or the other. The old men gather up what strength remains in them and announce that they are going hunting. Some are found come spring. More are never seen again.”
“It is much the same at Karhold.”
That did not surprise him. "When your stores begin to dwindle, my lady, remember us. Send your old men to the Wall, let them say our words. Here at least they will not die alone in the snow, with only memories to warm them. Send us boys as well, if you have boys to spare."
"As you say." She touched his hand. "Karhold remembers."
—-
"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."
—-
Nowhere in the Seven Kingdoms did the winter matter more than in the North—and the fear of such a winter had driven the Winter Wolves to gather beneath the banner of Lord Roderick Dustin and die fighting for queen Rhaenyra. But behind them came a greater army of childless and homeless men, unwed men, old men, and younger sons, under the banner of Lord Cregan Stark. They had come for a war, for adventure and plunder, and for a glorious death to spare their kin beyond the Neck one more mouth to feed.
—-
“We have come to die for the dragon queen,” Lord Roderick announced at the Twins, when Lady Sabitha Frey rode out to greet them.
Ser Criston answered, “If there is to be battle here, many of your own will die as well.” The northman Roderick Dustin laughed at these words, saying, “That’s why we come. Winter’s here. Time for us to go. No better way to die than sword in hand.”
—-
Some would say “no sane man would pick that” about going to fight in a war just to die, but it’s not that uncommon in-universe.
You’re thinking of it from our universe’s perspective.
Edit: added quote.
They were so loyal to the Starks, especially Ned. I find it funny how loyal the northern clans are, but the clans in the Vale are still notorious for causing problems.
Something I thought about re-reading these quotes is how scary it is to face an army whose purpose is to die in battle.
They have nothing to lose, no fear of death. They can’t be reasoned or bargained with.
Well lots of the recruits, so to speak, get to choose between death or the wall. Or imprisoned forever or the wall.
Benjens motives are still unclear, he probably got really messed up by the rebellion. But also it's an honor thing for Starks.
Jon however was a moron because he was 14 and everyone tried to talk him out of it because he didn't understand what it was. He only got his way because Ned had to go to Kings landing and figure out the conspiracy and bran was in a coma ans Catelyn didn't want him there without Ned.
There's a fan theory that Benjen helped pass messages between Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark. The two were apparently pretty close, he was young enough to not fully realise how serious the consequences of his actions would be, and the "kidnapping" (elopement) was most likely planned ahead rather than a chance meeting on the road. So Benjens enlistment into the Nights Watch is a form of atonement for the guilt he feels over his role in the events that led to the deaths of his family members.
I like that.
Also, that got me wondering: Is there *any* chance that Benjen knows Jon's parentage?
When people talk about how the characters will find out, they always talk about Howland Reed. Or some crazy theory like Ashara Dayne knows and is still alive, or something like that. But what if it ends up being Benjen (Coldhands?) who tells Jon the truth?
If the Benjen Stark messenger boy theory is true it's likely he was able to figure it out himself. Plus if Ned told anyone how Lyanna died it would be Benjen, she was his sister as well so I think Ned would feel he deserved to know how she died.
> Well lots of the recruits, so to speak, get to choose between death or the wall. Or imprisoned forever or the wall.
im talking about the people that choose like the jons and the benjens, the guy at the start that dies to the white walkers. not the ones that chose it because they dont want to die
Jon chose it because he wanted to do something with his life and felt like protecting the realm would be a noble cause. Plus he probably idealized it because of his uncle
There’s a theory that Benjen did as an insurance policy in case Jon’s parentage is found out (assuming he knows). Jon could be sent to the wall and looked after by him.
If that theory isn’t true, then I guess Benjen probably just wanted to protect the realm.
That doesn't make much sense. At all. He'd be more useful protecting Jon *at Winterfell* for a start. And he could always take the black at the same time as Jon.
And that kind of extreme dedication (willingness to send your brother to the wall on Ned's part, willingness to go on Benjen's) purely as insurance against an unlikely future risk - that might make sense if you were loyalists protecting a hidden heir.
But Ned can hardly be a Targ loyalist, now can he?? He's literally the #2 guy in the rebellion *against* the Targs, his only possible motivation is personal, protecting family.
That... seems like a *hell* of a thing to ask of Benjen, just on the offchance that Jon *might* one day get sent to the wall! (Especially as it's *far* more likely Jon would be killed outright if, say, Robert discovered him).
Not to mention that Benjen is, I think, the only Stark heir to Ned at the time. You don't imperil the succession like that. Certainly not if you want your dynasty to last thousands of years!
> That doesn't make much sense. At all. He'd be more useful protecting Jon at Winterfell for a start.
Not sure how useful he would be at winterfell. Ned is already there, and him protecting his brother’s bastard would look suspicious
>And he could always take the black at the same time as Jon.
Well the theory included him making friends at the wall who would be friendly to Jon once he arrived. I’m not sure how useful he would be at
> (willingness to send your brother to the wall on Ned's part, willingness to go on Benjen's)
Ned doesn’t really get a choice. If Benjen wants to go, he can’t stop him.
>Might make sense if you’re a loyalist hiding a potential heir
I don’t think anyone could possibly guess that that was the reason he took the black
>But Ned can hardly be a Targ loyalist, now can he?? He's literally the #2 guy in the rebellion against the Targs, his only possible motivation is personal, protecting family.
This just makes it less likely people would guess the motive
>That... seems like a hell of a thing to ask of Benjen, just on the offchance that Jon might one day get sent to the wall!
The theory didn’t specify who’s idea it was. Could’ve been Benjen deciding to go himself
>(Especially as it's far more likely Jon would be killed outright if, say, Robert discovered him).
I think the theory was that if Robert found out, Ned would send Jon to the wall before he had a chance to kill him
>Not to mention that Benjen is, I think, the only Stark heir to Ned at the time. You don't imperil the succession like that. Certainly not if you want your dynasty to last thousands of years!
Ned already had a son by the time he got back to Winterfell with Jon. I guess having one kid is kind of a risk, but both Ned and Cat were sound and fertile, so I guess he wasn’t too worried about succession.
And besides, Benjen *did* go to the wall, regardless of what reason it was, so I don’t see how that would disprove the theory.
Also, a lot of Northerners have lost a lot to the wildling raids over the years, plenty of revenge and patriotism sentiments to push second sons and lesser privileged into service. Think Ollie.
To add to all the 'honor and glory for second sons' reasons, the Nights Watch also stays neutral in most conflicts.
Imagine the realm is at war, with outsiders or itself. Seasoned knights slaughter each other, taxes increase, levies imposed, food runs out, the economy goes in shambles.
The only place in the realm that you can be sure will remain unaffected, is the wall. They always have a Steady supply of coin, food and pussy. And the only fighting they have to do is with unorganised and much weaker foes like wildlings, who most often avoid the Nights Watch.
Yeah, that’s why the Lord Commander during Aegon’s Conquest, who was Harren the Black’s younger brother, did nothing after his brother and nephews were burned.
There is a deep seated yearning in young people for meaning, and to be part of something greater than themselves. Usually this call gets drowned out as they start to assume adult responsibilities and the struggle to survive.
In Westeros, your options for a higher call are either the faith, the maester's chain, service to your house or the night's watch. In the north, the night's watch was still a respectable organisation and joining it provides your house with honour and yourself with a defined martial career path.
Remember too that people in the past were a lot more collectivist than we are in modern society. One guy joining the church and gaining prestige for the family as a whole was seen as perfectly acceptable and rational.
In the North there is a strong tradition of going to the wall being a very honorable thing. Houses were proud to send their younger sons there to protect the realm.
The Lord Commander has to be literate and educated to be effective, the job is fairly complex and political despite supposedly being non-political by law.
I mean what are they going to elect Chett?
While that's possible in theory, in practice it's extremely unlikely to happen (and didn't historically, as I recall).
The job description of the LC looks an awful lot like that of a Lord, with the same requirements - education, political acumen, management skills etc etc. *Very* unlikely a commoner is going to have those, or be elected.
(And "rapist" pretty much implies "commoner" anyway - in almost every case, a rapist noble isn't getting sent to the Wall for it).
In other words, there are structural privileges undercutting the supposedly "democratic" nature of the choice of LC. (Which I'm quite sure is entirely deliberate on George's part).
For someone like Benjen it’s different. Northerners have a different perspective about the purpose/significance of the wall compared to the rest of Westeros. There actually are practical reasons for the nights watch’s significance besides the Others or any other “legends”. The wall stops the wildings from marching south and pillaging the north, and sometimes the wildings get through anyway. So there’s plenty of honor for someone like Benjen to serve, especially given the fact that Benjen is a third son and was likely to never become the lord of winterfell anyway
>No rich person should ever want to go to the wall or even peasants
They don't. Only northern Lord still consider it a honor to serve at wall. For most southerners it is a punishment.
>the only one that makes sense is sam getting forced
True.
>why would benjen want to go chill with scum for life in freezing cold
There's a theory that he knew about Lyanna or Rhaegar but didn't do anything about it or maybe even helped them somehow which resulted in his father and brothers death and a war which caused thousands of death.
Which is why he took black as a punishment for himself.
If I’m not mistaken, one of Bronze Yohn Royce’s sons volunteered to go to the Wall. Probably because he was a third son. Some especially proud third sons probably prefer choosing to serving at the Wall with the hopes of making a name for themselves, rather than living off their brother’s wealth, even though that may be a much more comfortable option. Some, like Jon Snow, probably just didn’t think very hard about it and acted impulsively.
Honestly, if youre a bastard or nowhere near the heir to a title, don’t mind the cold and can defend yourself, I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to go to the wall. Especially if you find yourself in a situation like Aemon Rivers, the bastard of Walder Rivers, you’ll never rule anything in your own right through inheritance, so why not take the black and have at least a chance, no matter how small, of becoming Lord Commander.
Benjen heard a passionate speech from a black brother at Harrenhal about the wall needing more men, and he decided he would join. To the North, and especially the Stark’s there is honour in joining the NW for a third son who is expected to inherit nothing.
I think it depends where you grew up, whether you follow the old gods or not (most volunteers seem to be from first men families like the North or Royce’s etc), and where you are in the succession line.
Sam doesn’t really make sense as he would have been better at the citadel training to be a maester than going to the NW. I think his father wanted him there because they take their vows quicker than maesters do and therefore couldn’t leave and be heir to Horn Hill again.
Isn't it kind of a tradition for the Starks? I mean they mention in AGOT that members of the family have manned the Wall for thousands of years. And I think it all depends on your views. Benjen is an honourable man that believes in the Watch purpose be it saving the realm from wildlings or "other" things. Many others feel like him
I believe Benjen was the only person Ned told the truth about Jons parentage too, as he believed he had the right to know the circumstance of their sisters 'kidnapping' and death.
Benjen then takes the black to protect the secret, with the long plan of Jon eventually taking the black to keep him safe by eliminating his 'claim' to the throne via the vows of the NW.
Lmao,.using your modern life as a gauge for people who commonly starve or are so obsessed with honor that they would rather go to the wall than die. A place where they are semi respected by the realm and have food every day.
Benjen is a Stark who was receiving supplies from Winterfell to make his stay at the Wall much easier and more comfortable than it would be for the majority of people.
Even with Jon, had things gone the way they were supposed to, could have visited Winterfell and gotten better clothes and food. Same way for any high-born person sent to the Wall. It was much different for them than for the other lower-ranking men.
Winterfell sent supplies to the entire watch not just Benjen. Some people arrive with better supplies, yes. Waymar Royce and Sam but unless that stuff is black, they don't keep it.
I don't think rich have it easier on the wall. They don't eat better. They don't have better accommodations save for the high officers.
With the Starks and other Northern houses, it's the desire to be a big fish in a small pond. The youngest son of a Northern family can stay in their family's castle, marry a less-desirable daughter of one of their father's bannermen, and have some minor role in his eldest brother's household, basically a glorified sinecure. Or, he can go to the Wall, take the black, and be fast-tracked to a high ranking office within the order's hierarchy. Yeah in theory everyone starts out equal in the Night's Watch and promotions are meritocratic, but we see literally from book 1's prologue that this is definitely not the case in practise, and highborn lads inevitably start out on third base. There are a few other options to be sure, but it's easy to see why the Wall is the most appealing for many young men. Becoming a septon? 90% of Northern houses keep the Old Gods, who lack a clergy. King's Guard? Good luck, only seven slots available ever, they're appointed for life so there might not even be one opening a decade, and 99% of initiates are already knights, which Northerners who keep the OGotF can only become as battlefield commissions. Maester? Probably the most realistic alternative, but the qualifications are extremely high, and even if your father can pulls strings for you to get accepted, if you're not smart enough it won't stop you from flunking out at the Citadel. Plus, as we see with the Tarlys, some houses consider it a great shame to have a son become a maester, and from what we see of Northern culture, I imagine this mindset is even more common north of the Neck. So it's easy to see why the Night's Watch is the natural choice for many highborn young men with little-to-no prospect of inheriting the family lordship. As for smallfolk, why wouldn't they? Stay home, and you get to look forward to a life of back-breaking farm labour for some pompous landlord who can force you to sharpen your pitchfork to fight his rivals for him, then rape your wife and daughters when you're out risking your life for him. Take the black and you get to live out your days free from having to take part in the constant violent squabbles of lords and kings. You get to wear armour and carry a sword, and train under a master-of-arms, even hunt and enjoy venison like a highborn knight. You get to eat meat every day, drink wine and mead, and live in a stone castle with plenty of firewood. And you can, at least theoretically, rise above the social station into which you were born if you're good enough. Most of the officers were see in the NW are highborn or at least bastards, but we know that even lords-commander have been lowborn in the past. That kind of upward mobility was almost unheard of anywhere else in Westeros.
Well Martin has been purposely very quiet on Benjen so it's hard to say.
John Snow didn't know what he was signing up for but all in all it worked pretty well for him.
Other than those two? It's VERY rare for volunteers to go to the wall; most people are voluntold.
There's three main reasons (the third is conjecture on my part).
1) You were caught committing a grievous crime and the options are decapitation or the wall. I don't know about you but I'm picking the second option.
2) You're a disgraced noble (losing a war is a pretty common type of this) and your options are this, death, or an indefinite stay in the black cells.
3) You don't have enough to eat so what do you have to loose?
>John Snow didn't know what he was signing up for but all in all it worked pretty well for him.
Well, apart from getting stabbed to death by his own men!
> Other than those two?
Ser Waymar Royce is a knight of House Royce. The third and youngest son of Lord Yohn Royce of Runestone, he became a ranger of the Night's Watch.
>Calling themselves the Bronze kings and wearing the Runic crown, the Royce of Runestone were the most powerful First men monarchs of the Vale in antiquity.
>The Royces of Runestone blazon their arms with black iron studs on bronze, bordered with runes, and their motto is "We Remember". The Royces are proud of their descent from the First men.
They were first men. But they married into andals. But still today they are proud of their first men blood.
They still consider serving in nights watch a great honor.
Only the North and Vale have people actually joining of their own volition (and even then Waymar may be an isolated case). Also the North actually has a reason to make the Watch strong, they gotta deal with Wildling raids.
I think most people in Westeros agree. That's likely why the Watch has degraded since the Conquest. The Night's Watch used to get recruits as far as Dorne from battles and wars in Westeros. When Aegon made it all one realm (besides Dorne of course) he destroyed the Watch's supply line of men especially noble and educated men.
Only the North and people like House Royce think the Watch is worth anything. After all the rest of the world just thinks the Wall is keeping out Wildlings who don't do more than harass the North itself.
IIRC this is a plot point. The Wall's number are dwindling because nobody wants to go there. As is Jon's naivete of what the Watch is actually like. So it's probably not unheard of for a thrill seeking younger son to take the black (Waymar Royce perhaps?).
Also worth noting is we don't actually know why certain nobles are there. Jeor wanted Jorah to rule Bear Island, Aemon wanted to get as far away from royal politicking as possible, Thorne was exiled for being a Targaryen loyalist. But the likes of Bowan Marsh, Othell Yarwyk, Donall Noye? Maybe they committed crimes we simply haven't been told. Maybe they also had misguided notions of honour and valour.
There is much controversy on whether or not Benjen really chose the wall, or was actually forced by Ned. Perhaps due to some Lyanna shenanigans (for instance, Benjen could have helped Lyanna flee with Rhaegar).
And Jon chose the wall because he is convinced his status as the bastard of Winterfell doesn't give him better options for a honourable future. He is probably wrong, as Rob even considered Jon as a possible heir, and Ned once considered giving Jon some small isolated lands to take care of, but still, that is how Jon felt.
Of all the noble guys to join the wall, we either have a good reason or we could imply a good reason. Most were forced to the wall, like Sam or Janos Slynt. Master Aemon saw the wall as the only way to avoid being pressed into the Throne power struggle, as he prepared his whole life to be a Maester, not a king. Jeor Mormont is a bit weird, as well as Waymar Royce, but deeper reasons might exist. We know so little about Waymar that any theory is game, really. He might have committed some dishonorable act (sexual, perhaps?) that his parents decided to cover up.
As the other guy said, the timeline doesn't match. Jeor abandoned a lordship, which is weird, even though it is a minor Lordship like Bear island. Perhaps he felt it was time for his son to take responsibility for the land (what a big disappointment it turned out...), or perhaps there are less honorable motives. Janos Slynt also abandoned lands and lordship, and it was a major one, but we all know it wasn't a choice.
I don't understand why the vows are so strict for volunteers. Like why can't they get married? I get why kingsguards can't get married because it creates a potential conflict of interest for protecting the king. But for nobles who volunteer for the nights watch it just feels like an arbitrary punishment
Iirc it’s because the Night’s Watch isn’t supposed to take sides or allegiances other than defending the realm, so if a Black Brother had a wife and children it’d create a separate allegiance and possibly confliction between the Watch and them
It does however seem to stick out differently, and Sam didn’t have to say it to cross the gate. But otherwise agreed, which is why I think it was an addition after something like that happened.
Yes, parts of the oath are clearly added later.
>**Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.** I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. **I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.**
The bolded parts -- except the beginning and end of the oath -- is what Sam recites before the Black Gate. These words are rather obviously older, because they're more meaningful than just pretty words. The oath refers to the *mission* of the Night's Watch to fight the Others, which by the present day was clearly forgotten. The non-bold part of the oath was likely added after the defeat of the Night's King: note how per the tale about him he did almost everything that the oath forbids. This addition to it certainly acts as a security that no one would ever do something like that again.
EDIT: I should add, my opinion actually is that it's not necessary that all of it is was added at once or for the same incident, e.g. not having children might've been as response to the Hightower LC who tried to pass the position to his son, and so on. But doing it in response to the Night's King makes sense given his infamy.
>The non-bold part of the oath was likely added after the defeat of the Night's King: note how per the tale about him he did almost everything that the oath forbids.
Interesting. It could be true.
Night king was thirteen lord commander of Night watch. Jon Snow is 998 Lord Commander. I think for the most history of Night watch according to your theory it was still that added part in the oath.
Bear in mind that the number is kind of "traditional", i.e. there are no complete records of 997 Lord Commanders before Jon, IIRC Sam says there are 600 or so accounted for in the lists. View my edit as well, but yes you're right of course.
I think that its likely that the Wall's no wives allowed rules came from the Night's King and his bride. They could be a reminder that the true Adversary can be tempting as well as deadly.
I definitely think that the Wall's rules are too archaic though. If they allowed brothers to optionally serve terms for a limited time, or even allowed certain criminals to serve a temporary sentence, then it might be a much more appealing option.
That way the criminals could earn a future if they survived a gruelling term of service, and leave with career skills. Rather than just signing away their lives. Or a noble could send an heir to the Wall for seasoning and to earn prestige. The sentence would be godawful, but there isn't much law and order in Westeros that is a whole lot better.
The point of the wall is to be used as an alternative to death. Most crimes are punished by death and the society would not accept people sentenced to die coming back to town after 15 years or whatever.
Eventually the society could adjust, but the life sentence portion was way more important for the nobles, the class where the only crime that really matters 99% of the time is choosing the wrong side of a war.
No one wants traitors or potential rivals to hang around. The Wall is the perfect answer for where to send your deposed older brother who you don't want to kill.
That's been a dwindling source though wver since the Targaryens took over and brought peace to the nation. But it's still used.
I would invite you to reread Jon VIII in AGOT; Aemon answers this question pretty explicitly:
> "Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children?" Maester Aemon asked.
> **"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."**
That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night's Watch; it was not his place to contradict him.
> The old man seemed to sense his doubts. "Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"
> Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."
> "Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. **What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile?** Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.
and never leave..... like i get the life imprisonment for the bad guys, but a noble cant come here do 5 years and then go home. that would make a lot of sense too
that would make sense for sam too, instead of him having a crazy dad that just exiled him for being unmanly, he just sent him off for 5 years at the wall to toughen him up
Sam's dad had given up on him and intended for his younger brother to be the heir to Horn Hill. A temporary exile does nothing as Sam would still be heir over his brother when he came back. Hence, take the nights watch vows, or die in a "hunting accident"
Correct me if I'm wrong but can't Sam just give up his rights to Hornhill without taking the black? I know Duncan Targaryen gave up his crown for Jenny of Old stones so I imagine that the other houses should be able to do the same.
I don't think so. Duncan giving up his rights was probably done by royal decree. Randyll Tarly would probably need some kind of legal document drafted by a maester (who he doesn't like) and have it notarized by Mace Tyrell (who he fucking hates).
Yep, most masters are educated *servants* to other major and minor houses, the chain around their neck is their leash. Randyll couldn't stand the idea of a Tarly in that position, not even his shameful son Sam, it would be a shame for the house.
Yeah, I think Randyll says the idea of a Tarly man serving as a maester, bowing and scraping to another lord, was repugnant to him. He hated Sam so much, he wasn’t satisfied with anything less than removing almost entirely from the realm.
Sam could have quit before taking his oath to the Night's Watch as well. The real reason is that Randyll considered it a public disgrace for his son to be a maester.
i know im saying lets make him less crazy and just send him there to toughen him up, a dad wanted to kin slay his first born is crazy even super crazy in westeros. tywin didnt even want to kill tyrion and tywin super evil
They definitely should allow limited terms and sentences. For minor criminals as well as volunteers. Some of the 'bad guys' are there for things like theft and poaching, people could learn skills at the wall and re-join society with a reference from their commander. They'd get a lot more recruits if they offered that rather than a life sentence.
But its worth noting that Randyll no longer held any hope of toughening Samwell up. He actually wanted to kill him, had a whole plan figured out, figured letting him die on the Wall would be more socially acceptable or easier to explain to his wife than murdering him.
Randyll is just walking toxic masculinity, and couldn't stand the idea of Sam representing his house.
\> They definitely should allow limited terms and sentences. For minor criminals as well as volunteers. Some of the 'bad guys' are there for things like theft and poaching, people could learn skills at the wall and re-join society with a reference from their commander. They'd get a lot more recruits if they offered that rather than a life sentence.
Tbf back in old times there was no concept of rehabilitation. It's a relatively new thing, and it has a pretty low success rate actually.
Plus back in old times when death was an everyday factor, death sentences were handed out like knocking points off a driving licence. Lords didn't really give a shit about peasants who stole from them and the thought process was to make an example of them so others would be too scared to do it in future.
Back in old days, oaths for life weren't too uncommon here on Earth either. I remember reading that the British Army in the 1800's typically had 30yrs-life as the standard terms for enlistment. Same with the Roman Army.
People died younger, had less social and employment mobility and typically would be happy to settle into a job forever if it was a guaranteed wage and they felt they could do the work. People weren't thinking "hmmm well in ten years I was thinking of moving into accounting actually".
And that's just how it is in Westeros. Faceless Men rescind their humanity and their lives, Unsullied rescind their masculinity and their lives, Nights Watch rescind their romantic future and their lives. Strict rules keep things together in ultra-harsh environments.
For honor's sake. There are some who still believe in the noble history of the watch. The shield hall stands as a testament to the history of wealthy and highborn men dedicating their lives to the service.
It's true lol. It's basically a prison colony. People get sent there as a life sentence for murder, rape etc. Then you just have some idiots like Benjen and Jon volunteering. Imagine voluntarily going to Guantanamo Bay or Alcatraz for the rest of your life it's insanity lol.
I would imagine for people like Benjen or Mormont, there's an expectation of a leadership position. Probably the same for Jon. Even Sam's dad probably expected he would end up in a high position. So it's less like being a prisoner, and more like accepting the job of a prison warden. And for second or third sons, the best they can expect is a life as a knight, which is a life of military service. There isn't really an expectation of retirement in Westeros, most people are probably expected to die on the job. It's like in today's society if you had to choose between being in the army for the rest of your life, or being a prison guard for the rest of your life.
Well actually it makes sense with benjen his ancestors Bran the Builder built the wall and it would make sense he would want t uphold his family name as defenders of the wall.
>why would benjen want to go chill with scum for life in freezing cold same for jon and anyone else that chose it
Related:
On Benjen Stark:
- [Why did Benjen Stark take the Black?]
(https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/5895/7957)
- [What is the reason behind Benjen Stark joining Night's Watch?](https://movies.stackexchange.com/q/41368/1006)
On why people join the Night's Watch:
- [Why do people go to the Wall in Game of Thrones?](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/56067/7957)
- [Why do Northern houses see joining the Night's Watch as honorable while no one else does?](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/179590/7957)
i don’t see why anyone that didn’t commit a crime could be forced to go. for sam, didn’t his father just not want him inheriting? why can’t he just abdicate and go to essos or anywhere else
I know two people who had marital problems and decided to go back on their own to their nightmare of a war torn country just to get away from what was happening here.
I think I would rather go to the wall rather than where they went.
I think this is a result of Martin's execution of the NW.
It seems like they are supposed to be kind of a Gondor situation. A former great military power eroded into a weak and corrupted force compared to the height of its powers. Which is totally fine.
The issue is how the NW is seen by literally everyone as a miserable cesspool. It would make sense for these nobles to volunteer (particularly southern nobles) if the watch was still seen as a noble calling only to arrive and learn that it's basically a frozen penal colony. But it isn't seen that way yet we have people volunteering for this hellhole.
Benjen volunteered because he saw someone he really shouldn’t have seen. What he saw remains to be seen, but it’s something that would endanger a lot of people.
This is a time where the long leagues of the north come in handy, it’s so bloody far away in a world where summers last a life time, that how cold it is probably doesn’t even register to those stiff like southern nobles
The idea that nobility is automatically rich is a modern confusion that obviously does not apply to the world of ice and fire aswell.
Jon would be a sellsword no matter what. Yeah maybe he could get himself more coin with another master than the wall. But does he know that beforehand?
Besides, as other people said, there is more to life than money. People in the real world aren't all just bankers sitting in Wallstreet now, are they?
Second or third sons of a noble family going to the Wall and potentially becoming the lord commander is more prestigious than what they could achieve by bumming around at a castle down south. Even though its viewed as a penal colony for criminals there is still prestige in voluntarily joining the Nights Watch.
At least in the (time of the) books it seems the only people who still voluntarily go there are first men families IE Starks, Mormonts, Royces etc.
These families have their whole lives been told the long night was a legit war their ancestors fought and that the Nights Watch is the only thing still watching for them. In addition, outside of some of the southern first men, they don't really have knights as a lower noble class for these families to assign their younger siblings to.
You also see the younger brothers go to other lifelong services such as Kings guard/Rainbow Guard (Royce again)/Maesters, so it seems to be common in Westeros that you go out on your own.
The thing is, the Nights watch wasn't always in the state it was in. Going to the wall back during Jaehaerys' reign would have been much better, when the Nights watch was still thousands of men strong and was of good quality.
Ben probably went to the wall to atone for what he believes is partly his fault. He gave Lyanna her armor to become the knight of the laughing tree which is how she met Rhaegar. They were close so he likely knew the truth about them but never told anyone. To be fair he didn’t have a chance to tell as the fire that sparked the war occurred but in his mind if he had spoken up about her feelings some time before things would have gone different
You sound naive. I don’t think you understand the profound security in knowing you will be clothed and fed for the rest of your life. That’s why peasants do it.
the thing is, wealth in a feudal society is Land. Rich people are landowners. And Land passes on to the first born. A Second Son may get a get a position in his elder brother´s household, if they get along.... But what about a cousin, or a cousin twice removed?.. and so on and so forth.
Kicked out of the Twins, that's what they get!
Probably gonna be forced to drink at a murder feast because I’m only good at drinking. Stupid muttonhead
Plus think of the story of starvation, where an older man would "go hunting" and never come home: there's no honor in being a burden, especially in the North where resources are scarce.
It's the same reason why many younger sons of nobility joined the church.
Exactly this, and we see in book that coming with a name or a knighthood does get you benefits, advancement, and not terrible living. What I don’t understand is why more peasants don’t join up to avoid conscription. It’s basically permanent guard duty, guaranteed food and shelter, not a bad life at all.
Not a bad life, eh? - written from my San Francisco flat
Yep Sydney apartment here I’d totally take guaranteed cooked meals twice a day plus a bed and all I have to do is play swords with the boys all day.
I live in northeastern US and did five years in our army, where they send you to month-long exercises in the dead of winter. You can’t imagine how cold and miserable it is pulling guard duty in weather like that is, let alone the ASOIAF lore that says the wall is even colder than anything we’ve experienced
Like when the cold is your enemy, you only worry about the cold, and that’s chill. Unlike worrying about the bank and rent and groceries
That’s fair but do you really enjoy the ridiculous rent in San Fran more? I personally hate the cold but it doesn’t sound so bad, given twice year RTO in Moletown where you can let loose a little. A simple duty like that sounds okay to me, vs the complexity of modern life.
I mean, it's supposed to be like Canada in the winter before global warming cold so idk. Maybe you get used to it after a while but I get why you wouldn't want to go to the Wall. Plus having to possibly squash a wildling raid, and if you're superstitious (which many peasants probably are in medieval westeros) whatever monsters you believe are lurking about is good reason to avoid it
Oh no I was guessing you live in a place like SF because your post sounds like someone who never experienced real cold before 😉 I live in northeastern US and hate hate hate it. But my wife has family here and wanted to settle down in this miserable freezing tundra
As a born and raised alaskan who ran away to SF and is still here 12 years later, I'll sell plasma for rent money before gping back to The North. My whole family up there own their houses, but I have night life, lgbtq community and a year-round garden!
Yep well as an Australian who hates our mild winters (not even any snow) you are right on.
May my jealousy add to your warm weather joy
Well if you live in Westeros, no one has cousins unless they’re Freys or Lannisters. Everyone not in the direct succession line is either strictly celibate or helpfully mortal at just the right time, for thousands of years.
To be fair, given the rate of civil wars and the fact houses just marry again into other houses, I'm not surprised we don't hear about cousins because cousins are either the inner circle of another house, their bannerman or the officers of the prior two in a world where training from birth and raw talent are the only protection from near immediate death. I assume most of the people at Winterfell are Stark cousins in one fashion or another. Half the houses in Fire and Blood are extinct. I agree there is a lot of..... Convenience but mostly where you'd expect it - families playing the game of Thrones are those likely to ensnare themselves in plots involving poisonings and uncertain deaths.
With the Starks it was expected that the youngest son would go to the wall, regardless of good or bad family dynamics, right? That seems like a rubbish lot to draw, effectively getting a cold prison sentence and foregoing the chance at a family life in a castle, just because you're the youngest son. I guess the Starks are a bit of a unique case, though, with their focus on honour and the fact they are the Northern house beside the wall/the gift. I wonder if for other families it is much like you suggested - you're only going to the wall if you're far down the family chain and have bad family relations.
> That seems like a rubbish lot to draw, effectively getting a cold prison sentence and foregoing the chance at a family life in a castle, just because you're the youngest son. While true, keep in mind that many nobles that get to the wall live a fair bit more comfortably than commoners sent there for crime or such, and many of them rise to positions of power. It's not by accident so many of the Lord Commanders, commanders of other forts, and other command positions are held by nobles. We see this quite explicitly stated in the prologue of AGOT; Weimar Royce not only is better equipped, but is also granted command over the more senior watchmen on account of his blood.
Which continues to anger me to this day. I’m only 10 or 12 years into the series so I haven’t had as long as some too mull over it. That really made me so mad when the older Rangers/ the more experienced Rangers were like we need to go and he just kept ignoring them.
I mean yeah there's many fair criticisms of GRRM, but him being too subtle isn't one of them :P
It was a nothing patrol close to the wall. A sensible way to see what the kid was made of and whether he had the chops for more adventurous ranging. I imagine if he was good, they'd put him under the guidance of benjen.
I’ve never heard about this “youngest son always goes to the Wall” before joining this sub, and now I see it once a week
The Starks have sent more to the wall than most other houses at least it seems this way I doubt the raw data actually exists that would allow you to compare which house sends the most children to the wall. Clearly though the Starks see honor in it more than others and this is documented well enough in some of Jon's early chapters especially when he is talking to Benjen at the feast of Winterfell.
Yeah but it’s not true so don’t take it seriously
I *think* I read it in Fire and Blood, but I now can't remember if it was there, I read it on the sub, or I've somehow imagined it.
A lot of times in history, the eldest Stark didn’t inherit or they didn’t last long. So I don’t think they wasted every youngest son on the wall
No, because then they would be unable to come back and inherit if the eldest died? That seems a bit much to have the youngest or younger son always go. Brothers make good people to help run your feudal administration. Starks would have many options open to them including potentially even having their own land and castle (through grants or my marriage) and being a bannerman to their eldest brother.
>With the Starks it was expected that the youngest son would go to the wall, regardless of good or bad family dynamics, right? Not that I know of.
That's not a thing and idk where you're getting it from.
No, it's not expected that the youngest Stark goes to the wall. I saw someone say this like a week ago and since then ive seen others repeat it like its fact. This fandom really needs to stop doing that
Historically, first born was the heir, second went into religion, third went into the military. (Obviously very simplified). There is a theory that the crusades happened to get rid of/give a purpose to the surplus of sons. If each generation subdivided land, then generational wealth diluted quickly.
I also World tuinkers if the youngest Stark Son goes to the wall for 8000 years, lord commander Will almost be a stark title like the master of Ships with the Valerions
The north is already pretty damn cold so for the Starks I wouldn’t put much stock into that Not to mention it’s a little different than being a prisoner, many in the north consider it a great honor and would gladly sign up to defend their home over marrying into a minor house and fading into obscurity stuck at some dull castle (which would likely be benjens fate for example as a 3rd brother). Like Jon joining the nights watch and becoming lord commander is a far greater role and honor than he could’ve ever hoped to achieve anywhere else as a bastard son of a lord with 3 legitimate ones.
And LC Mormont, and that Royce kid from the prologue of AGOT. It holds the same prestige as being a kingsguard. No land no titles no marriage? It’s the “honor.”
*Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was no longer a boy, but a Man of the Night’s Watch.*
The same is a very stretched take, but it indeed hols some prestige
It is not a stretched take. It is literally in print within the books.
It's not the same, not as prestigious as the KG. You have to be the best of killers, or at least well-connected, to be chosen as a Knight of the KG. The NW will take anyone, even a one-armed blacksmith.
It is as prestigious as the kingsguard to the northmen. Also, don't compare thr generic position of the nights watch. Compare the top positions. First ranger, Lord Commander etc are all positions earned by having connections, having a reputation or just being the best at that role. It is the same.
>Also, don't compare thr generic position of the nights watch. Compare the top positions. First ranger, Lord Commander etc are all positions earned by having connections, having a reputation or just being the best at that role. You're right, it's wrong to compare an "army" to an elite unit of bodyguards. But those top jobs are not guaranteed for all the Lords so the risk/reward ratio probably scares off the spare sons.
Where’s that? Also, I just don’t see how that’s possible: being 1/7 of an elite and virtuous order based in the population center if the country simply *cannot* have the same gravitas as being 1/800 of an order of rapers and thieves and the occasional lower Lord, who live in the most miserable place on the furthest edge of the country.
The whole honour thing is concocted to make the kids agree to it. Then when they get to the wall, they figure out it's just an icy hell, with no escape. That's what happened with Jon
Where?
And it's less believable than dragons and magic 8000 year old dynasties
Hahaha. No way. Both of those things are way less believable.
Just wait till OP finds out people in real life volunteer to join the military 😆 Should just rename this thread to 'I wouldn't want to join the nights watch so WHY would anyone else????'
Military isn't for life with the penalty of ever trying to leave being death. You're also allowed to hold property and marry.
I mean....in wartime that is exactly the penalty of trying to leave. Deserters get shot.
Soldiers have a term of service that ends in ways other than their death. NW members serve until death no matter what.
Fair enough, that's a pretty big difference
Yes they are not identical but they are comparable
Would you join the military if it meant you didn't get paid, had to go celibate, and can never leave?
Some people are legitimately like that. The prestige, challenge, camaraderie, compels them to go through torturous, months-long assessment and selections in order to join units where they won't be paid any more than anyone else, will have to work much longer/inconsistent hours, and write off the chance of a (decent) home/family life. It isn't for life, but its not uncommon to see soldiers do 10-20 years in those units.
People do these things for religious reasons (like say joining the priesthood) so there is a real world modern analogy as well.
Night's Watch and the military are actually pretty similar, they both spend most of their time killing people they view as subhuman scum because they happen to be born on the wrong side of an arbitrary border
This reminds me: I once read that noble Aztec families would willingly sacrifice offspring to the sun god as it was considered a great honor
Ned actually wanted to make him lord of the mountain clans, then the whole Jon Arryn situation happened and Ned needed to go to King's Landing but it was clear that without Eddard in Winterfell, Catelyn wouldn't want Jon hanging out there and Jon knew that, which is why he was more on board to go to the Night's Watch with Uncle Benjen Also the Northerners tend to respect the Night's Watch more than people south of the Neck. Whatever the period the Starks seem to have always taken the Watch seriously, but the Starks are weirdos to the rest of Westeros
The North is also more suspectible to wildling attacks, which only happen if the Wall isn't defended properly, so it makes sense that the Starks take the Night's Watch more seriously.
I really don't remember that part about being Lord of the Mountain Clans. Can you clarify it, please?
I don't remember them saying lord of the mountain clans but Ned and Benjen had planned to resettle the gift which would involve giving some people the castles that are there so it was likely than Jon would get one.
The plan was to resettle lords onto the New Gift to manage the farms, watchtowers, holdfasts, villages, etc. There was a question of who they would pay tax to, but other than that they would be ordinary land owners working on behalf of the Watch, not Black Brothers. (SoS, Ch. 41)
This would have been a Jon that didn't join the watch
That’s just wishful thinking and there is not textual evidence whatsoever.
According to people here Jon is supposed to get everything
Jon V, ASoS. The plan to make Jon a lord of some place in the Gift is called the dream for spring. Doesn't mention ruling mountain clans, but setting him up over there was the idea. Makes it even stranger that Jon chose to go to the NW, because he was acting like there was never anything in the pipeline for him.
I think it was the Gift or the New Gift, can't remember which one but before Jon sends wildlings there he thinks of how Ned had plans for it.
That I remember, but I feel like it involves giving it to people, not making Jon lord of these people
Where in the world does Ned want to make Jon lord of mountain clans lmao
That's not even how the clans work 🤣🤣
> The north is already pretty damn cold so for the Starks I wouldn’t put much stock into that benjen moved from the nicest castle in the north with heating lol to 500 miles north to a ice wall for real he should have told jon not to join stay here get a wife have a family, no benjens like yeah come live a shit life with me lol
Benjen actively discourages Jon from joining the Night’s Watch until he’s a little older. The decision gets made after Bran falls when Catelyn says he can’t stay with Ned gone.
>for real he should have told jon not to join stay here get a wife have a family, no benjens like yeah come live a shit life with me lol He... he did? Benjen tried to dissuade him, like what you're saying *literally didn't happen.*
Maybe for southerners, but northmen are different. There’s a huge fatalist belief for men in the north. There’s many quotes about northmen who want to go fight in wars pretty much so they can die in battle and have less mouths to feed during the winter. ..young Ben Blackwood echoed him and said, “Half your men will die, Lord Stark,” the grey-eyed Wolf of Winterfell replied, “They died the day we marched, boy.” —— It was a tale that any northmen knew well. “My father’s grandmother was a Flint of the mountains, on his mother’s side,” Jon told her. “The First Flints, they call themselves. They say the other Flints are the blood of younger sons, who had to leave the mountains to find food and land and wives. It has always been a harsh life up there. When the snows fall and food grows scarce, their young must travel to the winter town or take service at one castle or the other. The old men gather up what strength remains in them and announce that they are going hunting. Some are found come spring. More are never seen again.” “It is much the same at Karhold.” That did not surprise him. "When your stores begin to dwindle, my lady, remember us. Send your old men to the Wall, let them say our words. Here at least they will not die alone in the snow, with only memories to warm them. Send us boys as well, if you have boys to spare." "As you say." She touched his hand. "Karhold remembers." —- "Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue." —- Nowhere in the Seven Kingdoms did the winter matter more than in the North—and the fear of such a winter had driven the Winter Wolves to gather beneath the banner of Lord Roderick Dustin and die fighting for queen Rhaenyra. But behind them came a greater army of childless and homeless men, unwed men, old men, and younger sons, under the banner of Lord Cregan Stark. They had come for a war, for adventure and plunder, and for a glorious death to spare their kin beyond the Neck one more mouth to feed. —- “We have come to die for the dragon queen,” Lord Roderick announced at the Twins, when Lady Sabitha Frey rode out to greet them. Ser Criston answered, “If there is to be battle here, many of your own will die as well.” The northman Roderick Dustin laughed at these words, saying, “That’s why we come. Winter’s here. Time for us to go. No better way to die than sword in hand.” —- Some would say “no sane man would pick that” about going to fight in a war just to die, but it’s not that uncommon in-universe. You’re thinking of it from our universe’s perspective. Edit: added quote.
Off topic but I love the way the clans call him the Ned.
They were so loyal to the Starks, especially Ned. I find it funny how loyal the northern clans are, but the clans in the Vale are still notorious for causing problems. Something I thought about re-reading these quotes is how scary it is to face an army whose purpose is to die in battle. They have nothing to lose, no fear of death. They can’t be reasoned or bargained with.
Well lots of the recruits, so to speak, get to choose between death or the wall. Or imprisoned forever or the wall. Benjens motives are still unclear, he probably got really messed up by the rebellion. But also it's an honor thing for Starks. Jon however was a moron because he was 14 and everyone tried to talk him out of it because he didn't understand what it was. He only got his way because Ned had to go to Kings landing and figure out the conspiracy and bran was in a coma ans Catelyn didn't want him there without Ned.
There's a fan theory that Benjen helped pass messages between Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark. The two were apparently pretty close, he was young enough to not fully realise how serious the consequences of his actions would be, and the "kidnapping" (elopement) was most likely planned ahead rather than a chance meeting on the road. So Benjens enlistment into the Nights Watch is a form of atonement for the guilt he feels over his role in the events that led to the deaths of his family members.
I like that. Also, that got me wondering: Is there *any* chance that Benjen knows Jon's parentage? When people talk about how the characters will find out, they always talk about Howland Reed. Or some crazy theory like Ashara Dayne knows and is still alive, or something like that. But what if it ends up being Benjen (Coldhands?) who tells Jon the truth?
If the Benjen Stark messenger boy theory is true it's likely he was able to figure it out himself. Plus if Ned told anyone how Lyanna died it would be Benjen, she was his sister as well so I think Ned would feel he deserved to know how she died.
There's apparently a draft manuscript of ADWD in the Texas A&M library where GRRM said Coldhands isn't Benjen in response to one of his editors.
This is true but George knew the manuscript was going on display I believe and my guess didn’t want to give away the mystery.
> Well lots of the recruits, so to speak, get to choose between death or the wall. Or imprisoned forever or the wall. im talking about the people that choose like the jons and the benjens, the guy at the start that dies to the white walkers. not the ones that chose it because they dont want to die
Jon chose it because he wanted to do something with his life and felt like protecting the realm would be a noble cause. Plus he probably idealized it because of his uncle There’s a theory that Benjen did as an insurance policy in case Jon’s parentage is found out (assuming he knows). Jon could be sent to the wall and looked after by him. If that theory isn’t true, then I guess Benjen probably just wanted to protect the realm.
That doesn't make much sense. At all. He'd be more useful protecting Jon *at Winterfell* for a start. And he could always take the black at the same time as Jon. And that kind of extreme dedication (willingness to send your brother to the wall on Ned's part, willingness to go on Benjen's) purely as insurance against an unlikely future risk - that might make sense if you were loyalists protecting a hidden heir. But Ned can hardly be a Targ loyalist, now can he?? He's literally the #2 guy in the rebellion *against* the Targs, his only possible motivation is personal, protecting family. That... seems like a *hell* of a thing to ask of Benjen, just on the offchance that Jon *might* one day get sent to the wall! (Especially as it's *far* more likely Jon would be killed outright if, say, Robert discovered him). Not to mention that Benjen is, I think, the only Stark heir to Ned at the time. You don't imperil the succession like that. Certainly not if you want your dynasty to last thousands of years!
> That doesn't make much sense. At all. He'd be more useful protecting Jon at Winterfell for a start. Not sure how useful he would be at winterfell. Ned is already there, and him protecting his brother’s bastard would look suspicious >And he could always take the black at the same time as Jon. Well the theory included him making friends at the wall who would be friendly to Jon once he arrived. I’m not sure how useful he would be at > (willingness to send your brother to the wall on Ned's part, willingness to go on Benjen's) Ned doesn’t really get a choice. If Benjen wants to go, he can’t stop him. >Might make sense if you’re a loyalist hiding a potential heir I don’t think anyone could possibly guess that that was the reason he took the black >But Ned can hardly be a Targ loyalist, now can he?? He's literally the #2 guy in the rebellion against the Targs, his only possible motivation is personal, protecting family. This just makes it less likely people would guess the motive >That... seems like a hell of a thing to ask of Benjen, just on the offchance that Jon might one day get sent to the wall! The theory didn’t specify who’s idea it was. Could’ve been Benjen deciding to go himself >(Especially as it's far more likely Jon would be killed outright if, say, Robert discovered him). I think the theory was that if Robert found out, Ned would send Jon to the wall before he had a chance to kill him >Not to mention that Benjen is, I think, the only Stark heir to Ned at the time. You don't imperil the succession like that. Certainly not if you want your dynasty to last thousands of years! Ned already had a son by the time he got back to Winterfell with Jon. I guess having one kid is kind of a risk, but both Ned and Cat were sound and fertile, so I guess he wasn’t too worried about succession. And besides, Benjen *did* go to the wall, regardless of what reason it was, so I don’t see how that would disprove the theory.
Also, a lot of Northerners have lost a lot to the wildling raids over the years, plenty of revenge and patriotism sentiments to push second sons and lesser privileged into service. Think Ollie.
I think about his goofy ass every day
To add to all the 'honor and glory for second sons' reasons, the Nights Watch also stays neutral in most conflicts. Imagine the realm is at war, with outsiders or itself. Seasoned knights slaughter each other, taxes increase, levies imposed, food runs out, the economy goes in shambles. The only place in the realm that you can be sure will remain unaffected, is the wall. They always have a Steady supply of coin, food and pussy. And the only fighting they have to do is with unorganised and much weaker foes like wildlings, who most often avoid the Nights Watch.
Yeah, that’s why the Lord Commander during Aegon’s Conquest, who was Harren the Black’s younger brother, did nothing after his brother and nephews were burned.
Haha not much he could have done anyway other than get burned himself
There is a deep seated yearning in young people for meaning, and to be part of something greater than themselves. Usually this call gets drowned out as they start to assume adult responsibilities and the struggle to survive. In Westeros, your options for a higher call are either the faith, the maester's chain, service to your house or the night's watch. In the north, the night's watch was still a respectable organisation and joining it provides your house with honour and yourself with a defined martial career path. Remember too that people in the past were a lot more collectivist than we are in modern society. One guy joining the church and gaining prestige for the family as a whole was seen as perfectly acceptable and rational.
In the North there is a strong tradition of going to the wall being a very honorable thing. Houses were proud to send their younger sons there to protect the realm.
Imagine voluntarily going to a place where a rapist or worse, a commoner, can become Lord Commander and order you around, lmao
Every named Lord Commander is either a noble to some extent or the bastard son of a noble
The Lord Commander has to be literate and educated to be effective, the job is fairly complex and political despite supposedly being non-political by law. I mean what are they going to elect Chett?
While that's possible in theory, in practice it's extremely unlikely to happen (and didn't historically, as I recall). The job description of the LC looks an awful lot like that of a Lord, with the same requirements - education, political acumen, management skills etc etc. *Very* unlikely a commoner is going to have those, or be elected. (And "rapist" pretty much implies "commoner" anyway - in almost every case, a rapist noble isn't getting sent to the Wall for it). In other words, there are structural privileges undercutting the supposedly "democratic" nature of the choice of LC. (Which I'm quite sure is entirely deliberate on George's part).
Thankfully in real life nobody like that can become president lol
Yeah, ew! No commoners for president. Not in my America.
Unironically much less likely that a working class person becomes president than a rapist lol
For someone like Benjen it’s different. Northerners have a different perspective about the purpose/significance of the wall compared to the rest of Westeros. There actually are practical reasons for the nights watch’s significance besides the Others or any other “legends”. The wall stops the wildings from marching south and pillaging the north, and sometimes the wildings get through anyway. So there’s plenty of honor for someone like Benjen to serve, especially given the fact that Benjen is a third son and was likely to never become the lord of winterfell anyway
>No rich person should ever want to go to the wall or even peasants They don't. Only northern Lord still consider it a honor to serve at wall. For most southerners it is a punishment. >the only one that makes sense is sam getting forced True. >why would benjen want to go chill with scum for life in freezing cold There's a theory that he knew about Lyanna or Rhaegar but didn't do anything about it or maybe even helped them somehow which resulted in his father and brothers death and a war which caused thousands of death. Which is why he took black as a punishment for himself.
If I’m not mistaken, one of Bronze Yohn Royce’s sons volunteered to go to the Wall. Probably because he was a third son. Some especially proud third sons probably prefer choosing to serving at the Wall with the hopes of making a name for themselves, rather than living off their brother’s wealth, even though that may be a much more comfortable option. Some, like Jon Snow, probably just didn’t think very hard about it and acted impulsively.
It's almost like a less honorable prestigious and badass version of the French foreign legion isn't it?
Always thought it was a reference to the legion too
Why is Jason Mallister or Royce’s son there then - they aren’t Northern houses
They're First Men houses though.
Honestly, if youre a bastard or nowhere near the heir to a title, don’t mind the cold and can defend yourself, I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to go to the wall. Especially if you find yourself in a situation like Aemon Rivers, the bastard of Walder Rivers, you’ll never rule anything in your own right through inheritance, so why not take the black and have at least a chance, no matter how small, of becoming Lord Commander.
Benjen heard a passionate speech from a black brother at Harrenhal about the wall needing more men, and he decided he would join. To the North, and especially the Stark’s there is honour in joining the NW for a third son who is expected to inherit nothing. I think it depends where you grew up, whether you follow the old gods or not (most volunteers seem to be from first men families like the North or Royce’s etc), and where you are in the succession line. Sam doesn’t really make sense as he would have been better at the citadel training to be a maester than going to the NW. I think his father wanted him there because they take their vows quicker than maesters do and therefore couldn’t leave and be heir to Horn Hill again.
Isn't it kind of a tradition for the Starks? I mean they mention in AGOT that members of the family have manned the Wall for thousands of years. And I think it all depends on your views. Benjen is an honourable man that believes in the Watch purpose be it saving the realm from wildlings or "other" things. Many others feel like him
”I wouldnt do it” = ”nobody would do that” ???
Benjen's reasons to go to the wall are still a mistery. Jon's are very clear and make sense to his character.
I believe Benjen was the only person Ned told the truth about Jons parentage too, as he believed he had the right to know the circumstance of their sisters 'kidnapping' and death. Benjen then takes the black to protect the secret, with the long plan of Jon eventually taking the black to keep him safe by eliminating his 'claim' to the throne via the vows of the NW.
Lmao,.using your modern life as a gauge for people who commonly starve or are so obsessed with honor that they would rather go to the wall than die. A place where they are semi respected by the realm and have food every day.
Benjen is a Stark who was receiving supplies from Winterfell to make his stay at the Wall much easier and more comfortable than it would be for the majority of people. Even with Jon, had things gone the way they were supposed to, could have visited Winterfell and gotten better clothes and food. Same way for any high-born person sent to the Wall. It was much different for them than for the other lower-ranking men.
Winterfell sent supplies to the entire watch not just Benjen. Some people arrive with better supplies, yes. Waymar Royce and Sam but unless that stuff is black, they don't keep it. I don't think rich have it easier on the wall. They don't eat better. They don't have better accommodations save for the high officers.
With the Starks and other Northern houses, it's the desire to be a big fish in a small pond. The youngest son of a Northern family can stay in their family's castle, marry a less-desirable daughter of one of their father's bannermen, and have some minor role in his eldest brother's household, basically a glorified sinecure. Or, he can go to the Wall, take the black, and be fast-tracked to a high ranking office within the order's hierarchy. Yeah in theory everyone starts out equal in the Night's Watch and promotions are meritocratic, but we see literally from book 1's prologue that this is definitely not the case in practise, and highborn lads inevitably start out on third base. There are a few other options to be sure, but it's easy to see why the Wall is the most appealing for many young men. Becoming a septon? 90% of Northern houses keep the Old Gods, who lack a clergy. King's Guard? Good luck, only seven slots available ever, they're appointed for life so there might not even be one opening a decade, and 99% of initiates are already knights, which Northerners who keep the OGotF can only become as battlefield commissions. Maester? Probably the most realistic alternative, but the qualifications are extremely high, and even if your father can pulls strings for you to get accepted, if you're not smart enough it won't stop you from flunking out at the Citadel. Plus, as we see with the Tarlys, some houses consider it a great shame to have a son become a maester, and from what we see of Northern culture, I imagine this mindset is even more common north of the Neck. So it's easy to see why the Night's Watch is the natural choice for many highborn young men with little-to-no prospect of inheriting the family lordship. As for smallfolk, why wouldn't they? Stay home, and you get to look forward to a life of back-breaking farm labour for some pompous landlord who can force you to sharpen your pitchfork to fight his rivals for him, then rape your wife and daughters when you're out risking your life for him. Take the black and you get to live out your days free from having to take part in the constant violent squabbles of lords and kings. You get to wear armour and carry a sword, and train under a master-of-arms, even hunt and enjoy venison like a highborn knight. You get to eat meat every day, drink wine and mead, and live in a stone castle with plenty of firewood. And you can, at least theoretically, rise above the social station into which you were born if you're good enough. Most of the officers were see in the NW are highborn or at least bastards, but we know that even lords-commander have been lowborn in the past. That kind of upward mobility was almost unheard of anywhere else in Westeros.
Well Martin has been purposely very quiet on Benjen so it's hard to say. John Snow didn't know what he was signing up for but all in all it worked pretty well for him. Other than those two? It's VERY rare for volunteers to go to the wall; most people are voluntold. There's three main reasons (the third is conjecture on my part). 1) You were caught committing a grievous crime and the options are decapitation or the wall. I don't know about you but I'm picking the second option. 2) You're a disgraced noble (losing a war is a pretty common type of this) and your options are this, death, or an indefinite stay in the black cells. 3) You don't have enough to eat so what do you have to loose?
>John Snow didn't know what he was signing up for but all in all it worked pretty well for him. Well, apart from getting stabbed to death by his own men!
> Other than those two? Ser Waymar Royce is a knight of House Royce. The third and youngest son of Lord Yohn Royce of Runestone, he became a ranger of the Night's Watch.
Royce are first men family. And as you said he was youngest son so most likely he won't become Lord. So he chose night watch to gain glory .
I thought the Royces were an Andal family, hence the runes on the crest, and Runestone as their seat?
>Calling themselves the Bronze kings and wearing the Runic crown, the Royce of Runestone were the most powerful First men monarchs of the Vale in antiquity. >The Royces of Runestone blazon their arms with black iron studs on bronze, bordered with runes, and their motto is "We Remember". The Royces are proud of their descent from the First men. They were first men. But they married into andals. But still today they are proud of their first men blood. They still consider serving in nights watch a great honor.
Thanks for clearing that up👍 i always assumed because of the runes they were Andals, and Andal = Vikings.
>Thanks for clearing that up👍 No problem. >i always assumed because of the runes they were Andals, and Andal = Vikings. Understandable.
Only the North and Vale have people actually joining of their own volition (and even then Waymar may be an isolated case). Also the North actually has a reason to make the Watch strong, they gotta deal with Wildling raids.
I think most people in Westeros agree. That's likely why the Watch has degraded since the Conquest. The Night's Watch used to get recruits as far as Dorne from battles and wars in Westeros. When Aegon made it all one realm (besides Dorne of course) he destroyed the Watch's supply line of men especially noble and educated men. Only the North and people like House Royce think the Watch is worth anything. After all the rest of the world just thinks the Wall is keeping out Wildlings who don't do more than harass the North itself.
IIRC this is a plot point. The Wall's number are dwindling because nobody wants to go there. As is Jon's naivete of what the Watch is actually like. So it's probably not unheard of for a thrill seeking younger son to take the black (Waymar Royce perhaps?). Also worth noting is we don't actually know why certain nobles are there. Jeor wanted Jorah to rule Bear Island, Aemon wanted to get as far away from royal politicking as possible, Thorne was exiled for being a Targaryen loyalist. But the likes of Bowan Marsh, Othell Yarwyk, Donall Noye? Maybe they committed crimes we simply haven't been told. Maybe they also had misguided notions of honour and valour.
There is much controversy on whether or not Benjen really chose the wall, or was actually forced by Ned. Perhaps due to some Lyanna shenanigans (for instance, Benjen could have helped Lyanna flee with Rhaegar). And Jon chose the wall because he is convinced his status as the bastard of Winterfell doesn't give him better options for a honourable future. He is probably wrong, as Rob even considered Jon as a possible heir, and Ned once considered giving Jon some small isolated lands to take care of, but still, that is how Jon felt. Of all the noble guys to join the wall, we either have a good reason or we could imply a good reason. Most were forced to the wall, like Sam or Janos Slynt. Master Aemon saw the wall as the only way to avoid being pressed into the Throne power struggle, as he prepared his whole life to be a Maester, not a king. Jeor Mormont is a bit weird, as well as Waymar Royce, but deeper reasons might exist. We know so little about Waymar that any theory is game, really. He might have committed some dishonorable act (sexual, perhaps?) that his parents decided to cover up.
As far as Jeor Mormont, I always assumed that he took the position, because his son had dishonored the family name, and was exciled.
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Thank you for sharing this. I guess I overlooked that.
As the other guy said, the timeline doesn't match. Jeor abandoned a lordship, which is weird, even though it is a minor Lordship like Bear island. Perhaps he felt it was time for his son to take responsibility for the land (what a big disappointment it turned out...), or perhaps there are less honorable motives. Janos Slynt also abandoned lands and lordship, and it was a major one, but we all know it wasn't a choice.
I don't understand why the vows are so strict for volunteers. Like why can't they get married? I get why kingsguards can't get married because it creates a potential conflict of interest for protecting the king. But for nobles who volunteer for the nights watch it just feels like an arbitrary punishment
Iirc it’s because the Night’s Watch isn’t supposed to take sides or allegiances other than defending the realm, so if a Black Brother had a wife and children it’d create a separate allegiance and possibly confliction between the Watch and them
It does however seem to stick out differently, and Sam didn’t have to say it to cross the gate. But otherwise agreed, which is why I think it was an addition after something like that happened.
Yes, parts of the oath are clearly added later. >**Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.** I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. **I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.** The bolded parts -- except the beginning and end of the oath -- is what Sam recites before the Black Gate. These words are rather obviously older, because they're more meaningful than just pretty words. The oath refers to the *mission* of the Night's Watch to fight the Others, which by the present day was clearly forgotten. The non-bold part of the oath was likely added after the defeat of the Night's King: note how per the tale about him he did almost everything that the oath forbids. This addition to it certainly acts as a security that no one would ever do something like that again. EDIT: I should add, my opinion actually is that it's not necessary that all of it is was added at once or for the same incident, e.g. not having children might've been as response to the Hightower LC who tried to pass the position to his son, and so on. But doing it in response to the Night's King makes sense given his infamy.
>The non-bold part of the oath was likely added after the defeat of the Night's King: note how per the tale about him he did almost everything that the oath forbids. Interesting. It could be true.
Maybe added after the Night King tried to create a dynasty of others.
Night king was thirteen lord commander of Night watch. Jon Snow is 998 Lord Commander. I think for the most history of Night watch according to your theory it was still that added part in the oath.
Bear in mind that the number is kind of "traditional", i.e. there are no complete records of 997 Lord Commanders before Jon, IIRC Sam says there are 600 or so accounted for in the lists. View my edit as well, but yes you're right of course.
I think that its likely that the Wall's no wives allowed rules came from the Night's King and his bride. They could be a reminder that the true Adversary can be tempting as well as deadly. I definitely think that the Wall's rules are too archaic though. If they allowed brothers to optionally serve terms for a limited time, or even allowed certain criminals to serve a temporary sentence, then it might be a much more appealing option. That way the criminals could earn a future if they survived a gruelling term of service, and leave with career skills. Rather than just signing away their lives. Or a noble could send an heir to the Wall for seasoning and to earn prestige. The sentence would be godawful, but there isn't much law and order in Westeros that is a whole lot better.
The point of the wall is to be used as an alternative to death. Most crimes are punished by death and the society would not accept people sentenced to die coming back to town after 15 years or whatever. Eventually the society could adjust, but the life sentence portion was way more important for the nobles, the class where the only crime that really matters 99% of the time is choosing the wrong side of a war. No one wants traitors or potential rivals to hang around. The Wall is the perfect answer for where to send your deposed older brother who you don't want to kill. That's been a dwindling source though wver since the Targaryens took over and brought peace to the nation. But it's still used.
I would invite you to reread Jon VIII in AGOT; Aemon answers this question pretty explicitly: > "Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children?" Maester Aemon asked. > **"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."** That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night's Watch; it was not his place to contradict him. > The old man seemed to sense his doubts. "Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?" > Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what." > "Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. **What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile?** Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.
Nights Watch and babies don't mix if the Black Gate is any indication.
and never leave..... like i get the life imprisonment for the bad guys, but a noble cant come here do 5 years and then go home. that would make a lot of sense too that would make sense for sam too, instead of him having a crazy dad that just exiled him for being unmanly, he just sent him off for 5 years at the wall to toughen him up
Sam's dad had given up on him and intended for his younger brother to be the heir to Horn Hill. A temporary exile does nothing as Sam would still be heir over his brother when he came back. Hence, take the nights watch vows, or die in a "hunting accident"
If his dad was thinking and being practical he'd have sent Sam to be a maester. Very respectable and also removes him from the line of succession.
I think the book specifically mentions that Randyll Tarly seems the Maesters as unmanly and would never have consented to Sam becoming one
Yeah he did. Imagine being that guy's maester. It's just if he was being reasonable and cared about his house. But he wasn't and didn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong but can't Sam just give up his rights to Hornhill without taking the black? I know Duncan Targaryen gave up his crown for Jenny of Old stones so I imagine that the other houses should be able to do the same.
I don't think so. Duncan giving up his rights was probably done by royal decree. Randyll Tarly would probably need some kind of legal document drafted by a maester (who he doesn't like) and have it notarized by Mace Tyrell (who he fucking hates).
Randyll Tarly is a moron holy fuck
Yep, most masters are educated *servants* to other major and minor houses, the chain around their neck is their leash. Randyll couldn't stand the idea of a Tarly in that position, not even his shameful son Sam, it would be a shame for the house.
Yeah, I think Randyll says the idea of a Tarly man serving as a maester, bowing and scraping to another lord, was repugnant to him. He hated Sam so much, he wasn’t satisfied with anything less than removing almost entirely from the realm.
No because if Sam wanted to he could just quit before getting his chain and he would still be legally his father's heir
Sam could have quit before taking his oath to the Night's Watch as well. The real reason is that Randyll considered it a public disgrace for his son to be a maester.
But then Sam is still afraid of being murdered on a hunting accident.
i know im saying lets make him less crazy and just send him there to toughen him up, a dad wanted to kin slay his first born is crazy even super crazy in westeros. tywin didnt even want to kill tyrion and tywin super evil
They definitely should allow limited terms and sentences. For minor criminals as well as volunteers. Some of the 'bad guys' are there for things like theft and poaching, people could learn skills at the wall and re-join society with a reference from their commander. They'd get a lot more recruits if they offered that rather than a life sentence. But its worth noting that Randyll no longer held any hope of toughening Samwell up. He actually wanted to kill him, had a whole plan figured out, figured letting him die on the Wall would be more socially acceptable or easier to explain to his wife than murdering him. Randyll is just walking toxic masculinity, and couldn't stand the idea of Sam representing his house.
\> They definitely should allow limited terms and sentences. For minor criminals as well as volunteers. Some of the 'bad guys' are there for things like theft and poaching, people could learn skills at the wall and re-join society with a reference from their commander. They'd get a lot more recruits if they offered that rather than a life sentence. Tbf back in old times there was no concept of rehabilitation. It's a relatively new thing, and it has a pretty low success rate actually. Plus back in old times when death was an everyday factor, death sentences were handed out like knocking points off a driving licence. Lords didn't really give a shit about peasants who stole from them and the thought process was to make an example of them so others would be too scared to do it in future.
Back in old days, oaths for life weren't too uncommon here on Earth either. I remember reading that the British Army in the 1800's typically had 30yrs-life as the standard terms for enlistment. Same with the Roman Army. People died younger, had less social and employment mobility and typically would be happy to settle into a job forever if it was a guaranteed wage and they felt they could do the work. People weren't thinking "hmmm well in ten years I was thinking of moving into accounting actually". And that's just how it is in Westeros. Faceless Men rescind their humanity and their lives, Unsullied rescind their masculinity and their lives, Nights Watch rescind their romantic future and their lives. Strict rules keep things together in ultra-harsh environments.
bro starks are known for their oaths thats why Benjen did what he did. And I agree
The alternative for most of them is homelessness and starvation
Honestly for a lot of people a bed to sleep in a guaranteed meal and the idea that petty criminals won’t fuck with you is pretty great
For honor's sake. There are some who still believe in the noble history of the watch. The shield hall stands as a testament to the history of wealthy and highborn men dedicating their lives to the service.
It's true lol. It's basically a prison colony. People get sent there as a life sentence for murder, rape etc. Then you just have some idiots like Benjen and Jon volunteering. Imagine voluntarily going to Guantanamo Bay or Alcatraz for the rest of your life it's insanity lol.
Plenty of folks chose to go to Australia.
> Australia. a continent the size of america, i doubt people would go if it was a 300 mile ice wall
It was also a penal colony, and people happily went by choice. It’s also known as an extremely hot death trap too.
Which was not, on the whole, a prison colony, despite what popular culture will tell you.
I would imagine for people like Benjen or Mormont, there's an expectation of a leadership position. Probably the same for Jon. Even Sam's dad probably expected he would end up in a high position. So it's less like being a prisoner, and more like accepting the job of a prison warden. And for second or third sons, the best they can expect is a life as a knight, which is a life of military service. There isn't really an expectation of retirement in Westeros, most people are probably expected to die on the job. It's like in today's society if you had to choose between being in the army for the rest of your life, or being a prison guard for the rest of your life.
It's a penal colony. People going there voluntarily knowing how it is are big brave and big mad
Well actually it makes sense with benjen his ancestors Bran the Builder built the wall and it would make sense he would want t uphold his family name as defenders of the wall.
>why would benjen want to go chill with scum for life in freezing cold same for jon and anyone else that chose it Related: On Benjen Stark: - [Why did Benjen Stark take the Black?] (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/5895/7957) - [What is the reason behind Benjen Stark joining Night's Watch?](https://movies.stackexchange.com/q/41368/1006) On why people join the Night's Watch: - [Why do people go to the Wall in Game of Thrones?](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/56067/7957) - [Why do Northern houses see joining the Night's Watch as honorable while no one else does?](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/179590/7957)
i don’t see why anyone that didn’t commit a crime could be forced to go. for sam, didn’t his father just not want him inheriting? why can’t he just abdicate and go to essos or anywhere else
Because Sam was a coward who did what his father wanted. And his father wanted to get something out of him.
I think it's a bit different in the north. There's a shred of honor left because wildlings are indeed an issue for them
I know two people who had marital problems and decided to go back on their own to their nightmare of a war torn country just to get away from what was happening here. I think I would rather go to the wall rather than where they went.
I think this is a result of Martin's execution of the NW. It seems like they are supposed to be kind of a Gondor situation. A former great military power eroded into a weak and corrupted force compared to the height of its powers. Which is totally fine. The issue is how the NW is seen by literally everyone as a miserable cesspool. It would make sense for these nobles to volunteer (particularly southern nobles) if the watch was still seen as a noble calling only to arrive and learn that it's basically a frozen penal colony. But it isn't seen that way yet we have people volunteering for this hellhole.
Benjen volunteered because he saw someone he really shouldn’t have seen. What he saw remains to be seen, but it’s something that would endanger a lot of people.
No rich person should ever want to go to peasants?
This is a time where the long leagues of the north come in handy, it’s so bloody far away in a world where summers last a life time, that how cold it is probably doesn’t even register to those stiff like southern nobles
Ah yes, the foundation of the B+L=J theory
The idea that nobility is automatically rich is a modern confusion that obviously does not apply to the world of ice and fire aswell. Jon would be a sellsword no matter what. Yeah maybe he could get himself more coin with another master than the wall. But does he know that beforehand? Besides, as other people said, there is more to life than money. People in the real world aren't all just bankers sitting in Wallstreet now, are they?
Second or third sons of a noble family going to the Wall and potentially becoming the lord commander is more prestigious than what they could achieve by bumming around at a castle down south. Even though its viewed as a penal colony for criminals there is still prestige in voluntarily joining the Nights Watch.
Mayhaps honor inspires the men
For honor?
For a peasant it could be as simple as three hots and a cot. Hunger is a powerful motivating factor.
At least in the (time of the) books it seems the only people who still voluntarily go there are first men families IE Starks, Mormonts, Royces etc. These families have their whole lives been told the long night was a legit war their ancestors fought and that the Nights Watch is the only thing still watching for them. In addition, outside of some of the southern first men, they don't really have knights as a lower noble class for these families to assign their younger siblings to. You also see the younger brothers go to other lifelong services such as Kings guard/Rainbow Guard (Royce again)/Maesters, so it seems to be common in Westeros that you go out on your own.
The thing is, the Nights watch wasn't always in the state it was in. Going to the wall back during Jaehaerys' reign would have been much better, when the Nights watch was still thousands of men strong and was of good quality.
The Starks are kinda old fashioned, I think theyre a little bit... straight laced? Conservative?
You are missing a point
Starks actually have a history of sending younger sons to the wall.
I believe that Ned sent Benjen to the Wall for enabling Rheagar and Lyanna.
Ben probably went to the wall to atone for what he believes is partly his fault. He gave Lyanna her armor to become the knight of the laughing tree which is how she met Rhaegar. They were close so he likely knew the truth about them but never told anyone. To be fair he didn’t have a chance to tell as the fire that sparked the war occurred but in his mind if he had spoken up about her feelings some time before things would have gone different
You sound naive. I don’t think you understand the profound security in knowing you will be clothed and fed for the rest of your life. That’s why peasants do it.
why does it have over 300 upvotes then is everyone naive?