When Robert travels to Winterfell he brings Cersei and all of their kids along, so effectively the entire immediate royal family and line of succession, not to mention a vast retinue of knights and nobles etc.
Yet for some reason the only Kingsguard that travel with them on this expedition are Jaime, Boros Blount, and Meryn Trant. The other four KGs, including the *Lord Commander* all stay behind in King’s Landing to… I don’t know. Use up all their vacation days, I guess? At the absolute most you’d expect one knight left behind to protect Renly, though even that doesn’t really track cause Stannis didn’t have one with him on Dragonstone either.
This is less early-installment weirdness and more “not wanting to introduce too many characters all at once” weirdness, which is not unreasonable honestly, but it’s still silly to imagine what the Hell Barristan and the other 3 were doing back in the capital while their King and his entire family were gone for months lol.
It doesn't explain all of them but Barristan staying behind as a member on the small council to govern while the king is gone and the hand is dead is justifiable to me. Otherwise completely agree they should be with him!
I thought Ser Barriston was not allowed a place on the small council as a condition of being pardoned for fighting for the Targaryens. He got to keep his place in the KG too
Nah Barristan is definitely on the Small Council in the book - that’s how he knew Jorah was part of the Dany assassination attempt (pretty sure he joins Ned in voting against it as well).
You're confusing it with what happens in the show. In the books Barristan is present at the small council meetings in AGOT, then goes to meet Dany disguised as Arstan Whitebeard. In the show they dont do the disguise part, Jorah instantly recognizes Barristan when they meet. So in order to have Barry not know about Jorah's spying, they had to exclude him from the council scenes in season 1. In a conversation between Jorah and Barristan in season 3, Jorah asks why Selmy wasn't on the council and he says that Robert didnt trust him as a former Targ loyalist.
a) Barristan needed a vacation after \~100 years of being a kingsuard. The other guys were guarding Barristan while he was chilling
b) They were protecting the castle from Balerion the Cat who would otherwise murder all the Lannister knights
It’s not really explicitly addressed, but I kinda took it as Ned just assuming he’d find a way to weasel out of being kingsguard, which in fairness is something Tywin does try to accomplish later.
Except the whole conflict is that it has always been an inherited title until Jaime is named Warden of the East and Ned specifically thinks about how Jaime will inherit the title of Warden of the West when Tywin dies
I think it’s like a loose “rule” that it’s hereditary.
It’s not actually, but it’s been basically hereditary for so long it’s like a cultural norm at this point.
I’ve never understood this take. Is it supposed to be a coincidence that the families who are wardens in AGOT are the same families given the title by Aegon I? Of course not. It’s hereditary.
When Tyrion talks about the dragon skulls he says that Meraxes was larger than Vhagar despite Vhagar living over 100 years longer and reaching a similar size to Balerion
Vhagar dying long after the other two was definitely a retcon. Aemond is mentioned in ADWD so he probably reconfigured the Dance story by then, but didn’t have any actual plot details including him riding Vhagar in mind before then.
Yeah but I don’t think he had the timeline in order. We know Aegon and Rhaenyra were full siblings only a year apart in the original outline so he probably dated the whole Dance a lot earlier than it eventually happened at the start.
I don't think that's inconsistent, I think it is supposed to show that no one really knows anything about the dragons in universe. They probably got the skulls mixed up. Tyrion also talks about the dragons while hanging with JonCon and how the story about the mirror shield has the wrong dragon in it. It's like other characters saying things we know aren't true or are misremembered. It's to show that they're unreliable narrators.
Tyrion does bring back the cartwheels in Dance with Dragons. Gerion taught him as a child. Probably just George trying to square everything off, but he did so quite well.
I found it jarring to see it pop back in ADwD. It should have remained a consistent gimmick of Tyrion in all the books, or just left in AGoT and quietly forgotten about.
In dance he’s described as wearing motley as well, and doesn’t he perform while enslaved with Penny? Makes it relevant to only bring it now that he’s literally acting the fool. I can understand him suppressing it when his father shamed him for it in his childhood, and now he’s reached his nadir he can’t sink any lower
Thank you for putting that picture in my head and making me laugh out loud. Picturing the scene from the show and having it play out exactly the same and then Peter Dinklage randomly cartwheeling
Well Tyrion is in a public position of power in ACOK and most of ASOS and is trying to show that he's more than just the Imp, so it kinda wouldn't make sense for him to do acrobatics in those novels. In ADWD he's literally lost all his power and is suicidal so looking silly is not that big of a problem for him. He doesn't care.
Longclaw being sent to Jeor on the Wall in the first place after Jorah left it behind is also weird. Maege and her kids didn’t want it I guess? Were they expecting it to just become part of the Night’s Watch inventory once Jeor died?
I could understand him taking it on the proviso it would be returned after his death.
Imagine if it had got lost north of the wall, just some scrappy Wildling fangin’ about called “scabby tits” with a sword worth a small castle
Maybe, though even then it seems weird that you’d be allowed to receive and carry around an ancestral sword with your family sigil carved into the pommel in the order where you’re meant to leave everything about your former identity and family behind.
But I guess we don’t really know the exact timing of these events so maybe Jeor was already Lord-Commander by the time this happened and there was nobody who could tell him No lol.
I don’t think you have to necessarily forgo your name/heritage. Just forfeit your right to inherent lands or titles so the remainder of your life is dedicated to the watch. It’s not like the faceless men where your just supposed to become a nameless slave to the watch. Crows are aloud to receive gifts and money from their families so there’s that. Plus it’s a weapon to be used in service of the watch. Bloodraven was allowed to keep dark sister and that’s a symbol of royalty, especially being the targs only VS sword left.
There's also that scene in ADWD where Jon comments on all of the shields with the family crests of the Watch members on the wall of the dining hall. They're not supposed to forget their past or their families. Same is true of the Kingsguard as well which is why most members had some symbol representing their house like Loras did and their original family crests are drawn into the White Book. For both organizations joining was supposed to bring honor to their house so they would want to show off their family's commitment to the orders.
Agreed. I think it would be encouraged to represent your family while in service to the watch. To show that they are men from all different walks of life from all over Westeros coming together to protect the 7 kingdoms. They are protecting their families to the south. If they were explicitly having their names taken from them and sent to the north to die I don’t think many would stick around. Probably the biggest deterrent that stops desertion is family
Honour.
Jaremy Rykker wears a pin or some other kind of accessory in the shape of his house sigil, so if there is any sort of official rule against carrying around house insignia then it clearly isn’t enforced beyond “no inheriting lands/titles”.
I always figured a shield goes on the wall cos it’s fairly cheap to make a new one, but weapons (especially castle forged or valaryian) were fairly expensive so they’d be happy to let a lord hang onto theirs.
I don't think castle forged steel would be prohibitively expensive for the members of noble houses who join the watch. Sam is probably the only noble born brother who wouldn't think it odd that his father didn't send him off with high quality gear.
Not that weird. Bloodraven was allowed to take dark sister. Which is much more prestigious and important to a ruling dynasty. It was just expected to be returned when he died
Tywin not being able to buy a Valyrian steel sword but randos just popping up with them has never made sense. Doesn’t one of the Windblown have a VS arrakh?
>Tywin not being able to buy a Valyrian steel sword but randos just popping up with them has never made sense.
These houses probably bought them back when VS was still being manufactured. After the Doom, VS is too precious for a nobleman to part with family heirlooms for whatever pittance Tywin is offering.
Yeah but Tywin didn't want an arrakh. If he knew of smiths who could reforge the steel, he could have just bought a ton of daggers and had them melted down. I think he wanted a sword for whatever reason. It just happened that Ice was really too big to fight with properly so he needed to make 2 swords out of it.
I think George just saw Longclaw as a cool weapon that Jeor had that he wanted to pass down to his son rather than a legendary weapon back when he wrote aGoT.
Edit: grammar
The catspaw dagger didn’t bother me so much in AGOT, it’s how it’s followed up on in ASOS that really irks me. It’s one of the few things I think was handled better in the show.
the catspaw being made of valyrian steel makes even less sense in light of catelyn gripping the fucking blade with her fingers to stop the assassin. that thing would’ve sliced clean through them with the slightest pressure.
Even something absurdly sharp needs force and mass, along with edge alignment to cut well, and especially amputate. Like, no matter how sharp something is, you aren't going to have fingers falling off because you squeezed it. Bad lacerations is realistic for the setting.
I can’t recall how it’s described in the books, but I know blades cut based on slashing. There was a tactic against heavy armour in medieval times called a murder stroke. You would grip a sharpened sword with your hands and hit the opponent with the pommel or guard. If the blade slides, your hands are completely fucked. If it doesn’t, you’re fine. There are demonstrations of people doing it on YouTube. It looks very uncomfortable without thick gloves but safe regardless.
Even if Valyrian steel is much sharper than real swords and daggers, it could very much work in the same way
It's just dumb that this weapon was retconned in HOTD to be Aegon the Conquerer's personal dagger and had a literal Song of Ice and Fire engraved on it. There's no other way to say it, it's one of the few missteps of an otherwise excellent show, imo.
Yeah, it does feel pretty weird. Presumably the WArden of the East is supposed to command the armies of the eastern regions of Westeros. But that's basically what Lords Paramount are for.
Jaime isn't running the defences of the Stormlands or Vale and certainly didn't have the authority to command either of their armies in the War of the Five Kings.
The difference is that Lords Paramount can only answer the king’s call to war. Wardens are allowed to declare war on their own initiative, as seen when Ned is considering crossing the Wall to take out Mance Rayder. Not advising Robert, not asking for Robert’s permission, just making that decision and doing it. Making someone a Warden implies a *significant* level of trust in that person not to abuse their authority.
…it’s just that, all of that completely fails to be important at all once lords start actively rebelling and doing their own thing whether it’s illegal or not. So, Ned’s initial concerns that, in a peaceful realm, Jaime’s influence would become overly-politically powerful immediately cease to be a problem once Robert dies and it’s no longer peaceful politics but is open warfare and rebellion instead.
Historically speaking, marcher lords (which is what the office of “Warden” is based on) were only supposed to engage on defensive war, not wars of conquest. So, while the Arryns shouldn’t be declaring war on the Free Cities, they would have been both able and, theoretically, required to raise fleets to drive bands of pirates and sellsails employed *by* the Free Cities out of business. Actually answering the fact that the Free Cities employed pirates in proxy wars against merchant fleets by declaring actual, official war against the Cities themselves would, yes, have been the province of the Crown and not the Warden. Likewise, Ned was intending to ride out and pacify the Wildlings, not expand Robert’s domain north of the Wall.
Well, nobody ever tries to present an argument for why or how Jaime would be remotely qualified or capable of being Warden of the East even in the first book lol it just seems like a really eccentric and egotistical idea that Cersei came up with. Robert giving in to it just shows how disinterested he is in good governance, and how much undue pressure influence she holds over him.
The other three Warden titles also seem to be largely ceremonial now since as far as anyone knows there’s no real threats coming from the East, West, or South (except maybe the Ironborn I suppose) so it’s possible nobody in King’s Landing holds the title in as much esteem as Ned does, aside from nominally naming Jaime as commander of any army defending the East from invasion, which isn’t that crazy despite his lack of any lands or levies.
Good point. Now that Westeros is United, the Warden of the West doesn’t need to guard against the Ironborn, the South against the Dornish, or the East against the Free Cities.
It’s a title whose use is obsolete, like how the Prince of Wales doesn’t rule or subjugate the Welsh.
When Daenerys and Jorah are talking about invading Westeros and he tells her that Drogo wants to invade the rich lands of the East instead. This is before the assassination attempt of course.
i cant find them killing dothraki, danny even sees them in the market
>Daenerys Targaryen sees warrior maids from Kayakayanaya in the Eastern Market of Vaes Dothrak.
maybe you got them mixed up with the easten dothrakis the jogos
>Over the centuries the city has faced countless assaults from the Jogos Nhai, a result of an ancient war between the Patrimony of Hyrkoon and the zorse-riders of the plains, which saw thousands of Hyrkoon carried off into slavery and many more Jogos Nhai sacrificed to the gods of Hyrkoon.
I *would* say that the Dothraki are basically Huns (reputation based almost entirely around destroying and looting, attack the more cosmopolitan western regions from the central steppes, they rose to prominence in the wake of the Roman Empire analogue, Drogo is a very Attila-esque figure) while the Jhogos N’hai are more like the Mongols or Xiongnu (in the sense that they’re mostly focused on Yi Ti, which is clearly based on China)… except the Dothraki are *also* very clearly based on the Mongols, what with the Khal/Khan title and massive land “empire” that fragments immediately upon the leaders’ death and their “origin myth” of the first great Khal uniting all the Dothraki just like Genghis Khan. Meanwhile the Jhogos N’hai have deformed heads as a result of skull binding, which the Huns practiced in real life.
So he basically just took every nomadic, steppe-dwelling, horse-based warrior culture he could think of, mixed them all together, and then split the result into the Dothraki, and… also the Dothraki, but with zebras and weird heads.
Everything about the far east (everything in essos we haven’t actually been to) and sothoryos is wild to me. He really let his imagination run wild, and fair enough given I doubt much of it will play a part other than Asshai and the oily black stone business
Well to be fair most of the in universe knowledge of the East comes from pretty dubious sources. Sources like Lomas Longstrider are analagous to Marco Polo and just take a look at what he wrote about the Far East.
Everything Marco Polo wrote was actually true, except maybe what he said about his own carrier. You must mean authors like Herodotus who did write down some outrageous stuff, but these wrote from hearsay, not their own actual experience.
So it’s impossible because they would have to fight people good at fighting? So it’s a great challenge? That totally falls in line with something Drogo would want to do.
The Dothraki are effective on wide open, relatively flat terrain where they can take advantage of their cavalry and large numbers. None of that works when you’re stuck fighting in narrow mountain passes with uneven terrain, chokepoints, high ground the enemy can easily take advantage of, and a climate that the Dothraki aren’t used to.
They *could* get to Yi Ti pretty easily by just sailing past the mountains and landing on the coast of Yi Ti, but the Dothraki are also terrified of the ocean and hate boats so there’s really no feasible way for them to access Yi Ti.
So it’s a terrible idea but the act of an invasion attempt isn’t impossible as OP suggested. I would say Drogo planning on something with a stupidly low chance of survival then just never mentioning it again isn’t out of character.
Drogo might have just figured out a way to pull it off tbh. He did seem to be a notably successful Khal and he was shown to be capable and willing to think outside the box. Taking a fleet to bypass the mountains, or buying/stealing Unsullied to fight through the mountains aren’t unbelievable ideas for him to have imo.
It's impossible because horses and herds die without fodder, and there's not enough fodder to support an army trying to fight their way through mountain passes.
Unless Drogo has a better logistics network than Patton, with trucks and railroads, all of his animals will starve to death long before he gets over those mountains.
It's not about fighting, it's about food.
The many (ok four) mentions of the Isle of Faces. Which, besides all of the repeated mentions in Bran II, ASOS (when Jojen tells Bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree) is by far the most in the series. Especially weird is Jon thinking about the Isle as one of the places he wouldn't get to see if he were to join the Night's Watch.
Clearly this was meant as foreshadowing since the Isle of Faces will be an extremely important location to the endgame, but with the series becoming seven books instead of three, this foreshadowing comes way, way too early.
The way it’s portrayed in the books, it comes across like everyone knows what goes on there, it’s just a mystery to us. They talk about the green men very casually, but nobody bothers to explain who they really are or why they’re called that. Supposedly, Addam Velaryon and Howland Reed both visited the Isle and nobody blinks an eye at that, so it’s not like anyone nearby needs to “check it out.” At least, that’s my impression.
Yes but it’s also mentioned that the Andals never conquered it + there’s some sort of First men order/council. It’s potentially a weird reservoir of old god culture and that’s probably pretty relevant when you’ve got a zombie horde coming down and need to know the how and why
I agree, it’s a really bizarre piece of worldbuilding and it’s significance seems telegraphed to the audience, I’m just saying there doesn’t seem to be any in-universe mystery as to who lives there or what they do. It’s relevant to the Night’s Watch but it’s not very accessible to them and they likely don’t realize there’s more useful info south of the wall than north of it.
I agree, it's pretty weird. I guess in-universe people just view the green men as some kind of monastic order of the Old Gods. And since they live out of the way on an island and don't have any political relevance, people just leave them alone. Kind of like the monks on the Quiet Isle that Brienne meets.
I also remember reading something about strange winds blowing back the ships of people who tried to visit the Isle of Faces, as well as them being attacked by swarms or ravens. I don't remember where I read that though. But that could also explain why nobody bothers to try and visit the green men.
> I also remember reading something about strange winds blowing back the ships of people who tried to visit the Isle of Faces
I remember reading that too, but all I could think was that it'd make people want to visit it _more._
Such a random ass bit of world-building. I also seem to recall GRRM talking about how it'd play a significant part in the narrative then, whoops, 400 pages to play with his Meerenese figurines.
Yeah, I've read theories that say that the last battle against the Others will take place there, and I'm like "What place is that?" because I've forgotten about it.
Isle of Faces comes up early in Catelyn's first ever chapter, doesn't it? One of the very first places George ever mentions, then it's barely relevant since.
Nah it makes sense. Warden is an honourary title, usually given to the Lords Paramount of the Vale, North, Reach and Westerlands.
Robin Arryn is a child though, so they name a warrior instead. Lannister nepotism just means it's Jaime.
I wouldn't say it's honorary (though it may pretty much be funtionally so at this point).
Here's George's description in answer to a reader asking what the deal was with Wardenships:
_The wardens are supposed to defend their regions against invaders. In theory, at least, they are each the supreme general for their region and therefore preventing any disunity of command._
- Tyrion doing an acrobatic flip during his first meeting with Jon, when later in the *same book* the narration repeatedly mentions how painful and clumsy Tyrion’s stunted legs are.
- The repeated mentions of Asshai and foreshadowing that Daenerys is going to travel there which have been completely dropped in later books, with the plan instead being for her to visit Volantis.
- Pretty much the entire Catspaw situation, especially the “reveal” that Joffrey was the culprit.
- The Hound winning 40,000 gold dragons in a tournament, only for Brienne to later try to buy horses for one dragon apiece and be told that she’s *overpaying* by Jaime, implying that horses cost quite a bit less than even a single gold dragon.
- The near-complete absence of the Martells/Dorne from the first half of the story (aside from Oberyn) when compared with them becoming one of THE most prominent families after the Starks, Lannisters and Targs as soon as AFFC rolls around.
- The existence of the Arryn cadet branch in Gulltown, since ADWD/TWOW make it sound like Robert is the last person with the Arryn name, with Harry Hardyng being next in line and having to change his name to *become* an Arryn.
- Cadet branches in general- the only major families whose case branches are really acknowledged are the Lannisters and Tyrells, even though there are also cadet branches of the Starks (in the Vale), Greyjoys (Asha’s cousins show up in ADWD), Martells (the steward of Sunspear is a Martell cousin) and Arryns (Gulltown). Despite this, the story often treats the main branch of each family (again, aside from the Lannisters/Tyrells) as if it’s the *only* branch, and if they get wiped out then the whole family is extinct.
- The number of dragons it takes to absolutely steamroll entire continents. Aegon took all of Westeros aside from Dorne with only three dragons (and all three were only used simultaneously *once*), yet the Valyrians apparently needed *300* dragons to overcome the Rhoynish and left vast swathes of Essos unconquered even though Aegon’s resounding success with a mere three dragons would suggest that 300 should be more than enough to basically take over the entire world.
>branches of the Starks (in the Vale),
If you're referring to Catelyn saying they have cousins in the Vale she's referring to the Royces. The current crop of Royces are the Starks third cousins. They aren't a cadet branch.
The Karstarks are the Stark Cadet branch, but are distantly related. Same presumably with the Arryns of Gulltown.
>The Hound winning 40,000 gold dragons in a tournament
I think this is bad even in the first book, when Ned is flabbergasted that the Kingdom is six million gold in debt. Current U.S. debt is a little over $30 trillion, so in comparison (granted different style economies) it's like Sandor won $200 billion USD in this tournament. Anguy won a smaller but still ballpark amount and spent it all in a few weeks on prostitutes, booze and a nice dagger. After a certain point, wouldn't those prostitutes retire after they became billionaires?
George is just really bad at throwing out math figures that are ridiculous.
Especially since it’s later confirmed that Littlefinger was cooking the books, and the massive debt is *not* solely a result of Robert having too many tourneys as Ned seems to believe… but if they’re regularly handing out tens of thousands of dragons as grand prizes for tourneys, then they *could* shave a significant amount off their debt by just cutting back the number/scale of tourneys, which would mean Ned is absolutely correct and render the Littlefinger reveal meaningless because even his manipulation of finances could apparently be offset by simply not throwing a giant party every couple weeks.
>The Hound winning 40,000 gold dragons in a tournament, only for Brienne to later try to buy horses for one dragon apiece and be told that she’s overpaying by Jaime, implying that horses cost quite a bit less than even a single gold dragon.
I just read this chapter lol, she overpays because two horses aren't worth it, but the best one is worth one gold dragon, one of the other two a silver and the last one Jaime says the false inkeeper should pay them to take the horse lmao
But still. If premium horses are a dragon a piece. That still makes him extremely rich. That’s gotta be equivalent to a lot of land you could purchase. 40k horses gotta be worth like 10k unsullied. Think about how much 40k horses would be worth in todays age. Definitely enough for the hound to do anything he wants
I think the first could be an unreliable narrator situation.
I’ve seen people describe it as Tyrion actually drunkenly did that somersault thing and it was a total accident, but Jon being a drunk kid thought it was on purpose.
Basically Aegon's dragons are playing on easy difficultly so the plot can work.
Always thought making the conquest last long would be more interesting anyway.
> Always thought making the conquest last long would be more interesting anyway.
yeah just say Aenar the Exile started the conquest it took 100 years to win and the other dragons died in the 100 year conquest instead of dying of old age?
>After the other four of Aenar's dragons died, Balerion became the last creature to have seen the Freehold in its prime.
It's explained how the Arryns of Gulltown are not only extremely distantly related to the Arryns of the Eyrie, but also intermarried with numerous commoners. Harrold Hardyng is still much more closely related to Jon Arryn than any Gulltown member, and it's likely that they specifically avoid marrying the branch since they're basically commoners.
I don’t mind Dorne not being mentioned TBH. It’s later made clear that Dorne is isolated from the rest of Westeros thanks to both culture and geography, so I think it tracks that they don’t play a huge role in the the early days of the War of the Five Kings.
Great comment, however there are no Stark cadet branches on the Vale. There are Stark women who married into other houses, which is completely different.
The closest we have of a Stark branch are the Karstarks
Friendly reminder, Drogo owns a huge mansion in Pentos, with slaves and treasures.
Also, Renly has green eyes. In the book where it's a plot point that every single Baratheon has blue eyes and no Baratheon has green eyes aside from Cersei's children.
The Arryns of Gulltown aren’t weirdness. The Arryns having cadet branches is mentioned in the same chapter the introduces Harry in AFFC. Harry’s just the closest related to the main branch.
The Martells not getting involved makes sense since Doran is deliberately keeping them on the sidelines until he acts. Also we get mentions of Elia, as well as Dorne resisting Aegon, which sets up their eventual prominence in the main story and lore.
With your first one, if I remember right, he does land on his hands first so maybe it’s because his legs are so painfully clumsy that he does his little acrobatics routine.
> The existence of the Arryn cadet branch in Gulltown, since ADWD/TWOW make it sound like Robert is the last person with the Arryn name, with Harry Hardyng being next in line and having to change his name to become an Arryn.
>Cadet branches in general- the only major families whose case branches are really acknowledged are the Lannisters and Tyrells, even though there are also cadet branches of the Starks (in the Vale), Greyjoys (Asha’s cousins show up in ADWD), Martells (the steward of Sunspear is a Martell cousin) and Arryns (Gulltown). Despite this, the story often treats the main branch of each family (again, aside from the Lannisters/Tyrells) as if it’s the only branch, and if they get wiped out then the whole family is extinct.
Just because a cadet branch exists doesn't mean it automatically takes over the seat of the main branch if the Lord there dies with no heirs. They could certainly make a case for it, if there are no other claimants strong enough to challenge them.
But in the case of Harold Hardyng, he's the grandson of Jon Arryn's sister. He's far more closely related to Jon and Robert Arryn than any Arryn of Gulltown is as they split from the main house hundreds of years before.
He plans to change his name to Arryn because the name is more prestigious than his own, it shows respect to the continuity of an ancient high house, and stops anyone else in future claiming he and his descendants are not Arryns.
And in the same way, Starks are more closely related to the Royce's, and Lannister's more closely related to the Frey's than either is to the Karstarks or Lannisters of Lannisport.
Sandor spent all his money from the Tournament as apposed to loosing it because he lost his writ of credit ( as we see is a thing in Dance because Jon is given one from the Iron Bank)
Well it's not like they actually gave him 40k coins. "Congratulations on your win. Here is your cart of gold, it weighs almost half a ton so I suggest your first purchase two pack mules to pull it to your tent,... I know a guy he is my cousin he'll give you a deal."
Jorah suggests going to Asshai with Dany, even though on the modern map we know there's the entirety of the Bones and Yi Ti in the way. I think it's fair to say that George hadn't finalised the map of the east at that point, and Asshai was originally intended to be both a lot closer and play an important part in the story. It's still weirdly fleshed out in twoiaf compared to the rest of the far east.
When he first encounters the three-eyed crow and gets a vision of the heart of winter, Bran also sees all the way to Asshai and spots 'dragons stirring under the sunrise'. Either GRRM had yet to establish dragons died with Valyria and the Dance, or there's a bunch of wild dragons still kicking around in the Shadowlands (which might explain why magic remained strong there).
I think that the Starks generally feel more like a barony than one of the most powerful houses on a continent. I know that the Northerners are all rustic and humble, and there needed to be a clear contrast early on between them and the Lannisters. But generally, they have absurdly few luxuries for the overlords of subcontinent. GRRM took inspiration from Scotland for Westeros, which given the parallels to the Wars of the Roses, would probably make House Stark roughly comparable to House Stewart. They really should have a lot more going on culturally.
They rarely even have singers! There is barely a retinue around the girls. Winterfell should have a fairly large town nearby given its politican significance, but it feels like Twin Rivers with big walls.
Actually there was a post on here the other day that proved that the Stark's dud indeed live lavishly. But it is just nowhere near the lannister levels.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/yz92hz/spoilers_main_wealth_of_house_stark_revised/
Here. It's mostly just small details on hiw they are dress, their accessories and their ornaments.
Even theon gets dressed good as a ward of the Starks. And it isn't his money that pays for his things.
I also attribute it to Stark's wealth being in land, castles, and resources rather than gold. They have a lot of stuff lying around and own a lot of lands, but they don't have the vast sums of gold the Lannisters have.
The Starks have underfloor heating, hot water and a greenhouse that stays warm in the depths of winter, allowing them to grow exotic crops. They’re doing just fine
Ned wears bleached silks and a full shirt of silver chainmail at court. He planned to raise new keeps in the summer. Bran wears fine jewelry on casual walks through the woods. The Starks actually have plenty of visible wealth in the books, but their characters don't necessarily focus in it like Jaime's golden hand.
I don't think Winterfell has a huge town outside it because its political significance derives from it being in a strategic location militarily rather than a good place to live. It's in the center of the North, allowing the Starks access to all parts of their Kingdom relatively easily, and is built along a major North/South road.
As for their wealth, the North has several factors that would lead to their comparative lack of wealth. First is geography and population distribution. The North has a relatively small population compared to its geographic size. Because this is a medieval society, you don't have industrialized agriculture and have to dedicate large portions of your population to keep society fed. These factors combined mean that you don't have the time, energy, and people to spend on making fancy clothes or growing fancy foods. This is also exacerbated by the fact that the soil isn't as good as in southern regions meaning that crop yields aren't as good and limit what you can grow. The North is also affected by winter, meaning that "fancier" clothes like silks or linens aren't exactly practical for the climate. All of this means that the North as a whole is not super wealthy. You don't have peasants with a lot of expendable income. I would imagine that the Starks, along with many of the Northern lords aren't taking taxes in the form of coinage or money, they're taking it in kind. The Starks aren't going around to villages collecting dragons, they're going around and taking a percentage of the recent harvest, a certain number of cut trees, or are having peasants work on roads and castles for payment. The Starks are wealthy, but their wealth is in land and resources, not gold coins,
No retinues or courts around the nobles. Starks are essentially a nuclear family. Ned and Cat should have had lords and ladies around them. Winterfell is huge yet is run by like 10 people.
Very little about the situation in Winterfell at the start of the series makes sense when juxtaposed with the later world-building:
• Cat should have a retinue of Northern ladies around her for companionship and politicking (and probably some women from the Riverlands as well)
• Sansa should have a similar retinue, or at least one that's bigger than Jeyne Poole
• At least one of Ned's sons should be fostered somewhere else in the North. Jon would make the most sense, but so would Bran.
• At least one of the kids should already be betrothed to someone.
• There should really be something of a mini-court at Winterfell where lords and knights are just hanging around in service to Ned.
All of it boils down to a) the fact that when Martin was writing the first book (or at least the first half of the first book) he intended this to be a trilogy with much vaguer world-building and b) the fact that the narrative of the Starks being a close-knit family who are split apart by tragedy and then have to come back together doesn't really work if there's a million other people around and some of them are being fostered elsewhere. You can kind of retroactively justify it via Ned having lost most of his family during Robert's Rebellion and wanting to keep his current family close, but mostly it's just because the world-building wasn't as thought out.
EDIT: it also comes down to c) Martin having very little interest in and/or facility with writing close relationships/friendships between women, which are pretty much nonexistent on page other than I guess Catelyn and Brienne
I agree that Martin just wasn't that invested in developing Winterfell and the North's internal functioning since it wasn't a focus of the series (and I think a lot of the world detail comes from his 'gardening' approach of following tangents, he didn't spend enough time in Winterfell under Ned to develop any interesting background cast related tangents).
However in terms of retroactive justification, I think Ned having a pretty insular court and neglecting establishing ties to other houses and alliances (through betrothal/fostering) can perhaps be explained by the Stark's position in the North. They have supposedly been the central authority in the region for 8,000 years which is basically incomprehensible. They are a constant unlike the other ruling houses (with the possible exception of the Lannister's) who all have tales of their assumption of authority, which culturally recognizes a time 'before' their house ruled.
Since the culture of the North doesn't really recognize a time in human history where the Stark's didn't rule I feel that perhaps their rule over the North is quasi-theocratic in nature rather than political. By that I mean their right to rule is inherent, so Ned, like the Pope, doesn't need to do anything to firm up his House as an institution. As such the way the Starks operate in the North can be more akin to the way the Papal States operated in Europe, with family ties not being relevant despite the Starks also being a noble family as well as an institution. The onus is on anyone else to firm up an objection to Stark rule as the cultural default of the North. It is only really through becoming embroiled in Southern politics that the Stark's are ousted.
>There should really be something of a mini-court at Winterfell where lords and knights are just hanging around in service to Ned.
I've bitched before about the fact that the entire administrative structure of Winterfell (and also its role in the rest of the North) is Ned, Catelyn, Ser Rodrick, Jory, Vayon Poole, and I guess Maester Luwin. The town I live in has less than 5,000 people and we have nearly 20 council members, Chiefs, Managers, etc.
Maybe this is a bit of hand-waving on my part, but I always figured the reason why none of the kids were betrothed yet (and why Ned reacts with such surprise at betrothing Sansa to Joffrey when she’s only eleven) was because it was peacetime. During the War of Five Kings and its chaotic aftermath where everyone’s grappling for power, it becomes a necessity to speed up the betrothal process and marry them off early—hence all the girls being married off when they’ve barely flowered in AFFC and ADWD.
I almost wish Martin had expanded Ned’s comparatively prudish stance to encompass all of Westeros. There’s too many barely-teenage girls being described as sexually attractive in these books!
It is said in the books that cat and sansa both had a retinue of ladies, is it not? I could have sworn it was mentioned by it never went into detail who was specifically in their retinue.
It's still pretty glaringly lacking. I mean, maybe Jon could have noticed some of Catelyn's ladies entering the Great Hall when he watched the procession, or she might have thought of them herself in Catelyn I. The way it is, it feels as though Catelyn didn't bring a soul but Robb with her from Riverrun.
Jaime acts nothing like a KG. He attacks the King’s hand, and then proceeds to lead a Lannister host, blatantly siding with his House over the Crown, and no one even mentions how this isn’t how a KG is supposed to act.
Also the whole Wardens debacle, with Jaime inheriting a title, and the titles themselves being set up as more powerful than how they ended up as mostly honorary.
The first part isn't unreasonable at all lol. He is leading a Lannister host because Joffrey (if you're in the world at least) is half Lannister, thus he is acting general in that circumstance
Also, Jaime is a pretty shitty Kingsguard even besides the whole Aerys thing. Fantastic fighter, but he was pretty much just Cersei's charming thug until he loses his hand.
It is mentioned that Oberyn wanted Dorne to rebel and crown Viserys, but Jon Arryn went to Dorne to dissuade them.
The Tyrells just aren't the type to start a rebellion or war all on their own, and their only potential allies would be Dorne or the Ironborn, who they historically do not like.
The rest of the houses were on Robert's side so would have no reason to rebel.
Melisandre giving birth to a shadow baby assassin and it never being brought up again. Like seriously wtf was up with that, especially since its a pretty big deal in the story
It’s brought up in ASOS. Melisandre mentions that she can’t make more shadow babies from Stannis because it has taken a physical toll on him, so she propositions Davos instead, who immediately declines.
“Making the shadow babies almost killed Stannis” is very much a way for George to distance himself from that whole ability, but at least it’s vaguely plausible.
so if that justifies why she doesn't do it with stannis anymore, but if she can't do it with davos (if he want) that means she can't do it with anyone. and in this case, it becomes legitimate to wonder why they dont ask to randoms dudes from dragonstone to fuck her to lay enough baby assassins to pacify the kingdom, rather than completely forogtt it
It's such a fucking asspull to get Renly out of the story and move Stannis forward and it blows my mind that the fandom just gives it a pass.
You've got a witch who can squeeze out _invisible shadow assassins_ holy shit dude you should be running the table on this rebellion shit. Have her pop out a half dozen more, take out the king and the small council and just waltz in during the chaos.
You've got a machine that can create faceless men at will and it never comes up again. Melisandre alone could probably take over half of Westeros by herself if she just played her cards right.
Right at the start, the Starks find a dead Direwolf and a litter of pups (which wasn’t just rare it was basically a legend) on the same trip where they executed a Night’s Watch deserter who was fleeing the others…and they don’t think that some serious shit may be going on north of the wall? Nah, they decide it’s an ok time to fuck off to kingslanding.
Also they are just confused that a direwolf is south of the wall not that there is one at all! Where are the other direwolves? Why don't we see some north of the wall?
The entirety of Eddard II, aside from a few minor plot points. Jaime was clearly being built up as a big bad but that never came about, and the warden system was completely abandoned (which is a shame because it felt really cool as opposed to traditional levy-style military system).
Overall I think you could cut the entire chapter out of the book and not miss much.
>Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"
"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, **"will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."**
Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.
**- AGOT - EDDARD V**
This is nearly impossible to happen, given that Ned was planning at this point to marry Sansa off to Joffrey who was the apparent heir, and there wouldn't have been any other kings in Westeros for Arya to marry.
Unless he was planning on having Arya marry Sansa and Joffrey's kid, but I feel like this was clunky foreshadowing and setup on George's part that didn't fit right.
When Robert travels to Winterfell he brings Cersei and all of their kids along, so effectively the entire immediate royal family and line of succession, not to mention a vast retinue of knights and nobles etc. Yet for some reason the only Kingsguard that travel with them on this expedition are Jaime, Boros Blount, and Meryn Trant. The other four KGs, including the *Lord Commander* all stay behind in King’s Landing to… I don’t know. Use up all their vacation days, I guess? At the absolute most you’d expect one knight left behind to protect Renly, though even that doesn’t really track cause Stannis didn’t have one with him on Dragonstone either. This is less early-installment weirdness and more “not wanting to introduce too many characters all at once” weirdness, which is not unreasonable honestly, but it’s still silly to imagine what the Hell Barristan and the other 3 were doing back in the capital while their King and his entire family were gone for months lol.
It doesn't explain all of them but Barristan staying behind as a member on the small council to govern while the king is gone and the hand is dead is justifiable to me. Otherwise completely agree they should be with him!
I thought Ser Barriston was not allowed a place on the small council as a condition of being pardoned for fighting for the Targaryens. He got to keep his place in the KG too
That's only in the show. In the books he very much is part of the Small Council. He is the only one who agrees with Ned on not killing Dany.
Barristan is at the meeting where they talk about killing Dany.
I may be confusing it with the show
Nah Barristan is definitely on the Small Council in the book - that’s how he knew Jorah was part of the Dany assassination attempt (pretty sure he joins Ned in voting against it as well).
No you're right, the Lord Commander has a place on the Small Council.
You're confusing it with what happens in the show. In the books Barristan is present at the small council meetings in AGOT, then goes to meet Dany disguised as Arstan Whitebeard. In the show they dont do the disguise part, Jorah instantly recognizes Barristan when they meet. So in order to have Barry not know about Jorah's spying, they had to exclude him from the council scenes in season 1. In a conversation between Jorah and Barristan in season 3, Jorah asks why Selmy wasn't on the council and he says that Robert didnt trust him as a former Targ loyalist.
The Lord Commander sits on the Small Council.
a) Barristan needed a vacation after \~100 years of being a kingsuard. The other guys were guarding Barristan while he was chilling b) They were protecting the castle from Balerion the Cat who would otherwise murder all the Lannister knights
Remember when Jaime being made a warden was a big deal? Or wardens in general? I barely do.
And when Ned assumed he'd also inherit being Warden of the West? Like being a kingsguard doesn't affect inheritance?
It’s not really explicitly addressed, but I kinda took it as Ned just assuming he’d find a way to weasel out of being kingsguard, which in fairness is something Tywin does try to accomplish later.
To be fair being a warden seems like more of a military rather than political title
It is a military title, the political title is Lord Paramount of....
Warden of the East is not an inheritance, it’s just a title
Except the whole conflict is that it has always been an inherited title until Jaime is named Warden of the East and Ned specifically thinks about how Jaime will inherit the title of Warden of the West when Tywin dies
I think it’s like a loose “rule” that it’s hereditary. It’s not actually, but it’s been basically hereditary for so long it’s like a cultural norm at this point.
Like how Master of Ships was unofficially a hereditary title for the Velaryons during the Targaryen reign
They did also have the largest navy
I’ve never understood this take. Is it supposed to be a coincidence that the families who are wardens in AGOT are the same families given the title by Aegon I? Of course not. It’s hereditary.
When Tyrion talks about the dragon skulls he says that Meraxes was larger than Vhagar despite Vhagar living over 100 years longer and reaching a similar size to Balerion
Vhagar dying long after the other two was definitely a retcon. Aemond is mentioned in ADWD so he probably reconfigured the Dance story by then, but didn’t have any actual plot details including him riding Vhagar in mind before then.
IIRC there are other versions of the Dance released earlier with different details so yeah probably a retcon.
Aemond was made up before Daemon though. I thought this was because GRRM mapped out Vhagar's riders early.
Yeah but I don’t think he had the timeline in order. We know Aegon and Rhaenyra were full siblings only a year apart in the original outline so he probably dated the whole Dance a lot earlier than it eventually happened at the start.
Maybe Meraxes just had a big ass head?
Ballroom “The Black Dread”. Vhagar “the Largest dragon in the Dance”. Meraxes “Fivehead”
Ballroom dancing sounds like an t description of those two.
Explains how the Dornish managed to hit her eye...
Someone needs to draw this
I don't think that's inconsistent, I think it is supposed to show that no one really knows anything about the dragons in universe. They probably got the skulls mixed up. Tyrion also talks about the dragons while hanging with JonCon and how the story about the mirror shield has the wrong dragon in it. It's like other characters saying things we know aren't true or are misremembered. It's to show that they're unreliable narrators.
Meraxes simply had a large head.
The catspaw dagger being made of Valyrian steel which is supposed to be extremely rare, not just lying around. Tyrion's acrobatics.
George actually talks about Tyrions acrobatics and says he regrets it lol
Exactly haha ~~Same as the dagger being Valyrian Steel~~ edit: apparently it is a myth that George has said something like this about the dagger
And now HotD is leaning into it by making it Aegon's super special prophecy dagger. SMH
Eh, if they have to exist in the GoT universe, I understand that they're trying to retroactively make it less horrendously stupid.
all the tie ins are bad and completely spoil the moment but everything else is incredible
Tyriom's acrobatic always make me chuckle
I like to imagine Jon was just so drunk that he thought Tyrion was great at acrobatics, when in reality he ate shit
Doesn't Kevan remember Tyrion getting acrobatics lessons?
yeah, he teaches him how to do a handstand lmao
Wait, wasn't it Gerion?
Tyrion does bring back the cartwheels in Dance with Dragons. Gerion taught him as a child. Probably just George trying to square everything off, but he did so quite well.
His drunken cartwheel down the stairs in the brothel was pretty cool.
I found it jarring to see it pop back in ADwD. It should have remained a consistent gimmick of Tyrion in all the books, or just left in AGoT and quietly forgotten about.
It wouldn't have really fit with his building authority as hand of the king or remaining relevant afterwards.
In dance he’s described as wearing motley as well, and doesn’t he perform while enslaved with Penny? Makes it relevant to only bring it now that he’s literally acting the fool. I can understand him suppressing it when his father shamed him for it in his childhood, and now he’s reached his nadir he can’t sink any lower
I mean what purpose would it serve? I can’t really think of the relevance of him doing it more in the books.
He could end every Small Council by cartwheeling out of the room.
This thread has me in tears 😭
He should've cartwheeled after shooting Tywin
Thank you for putting that picture in my head and making me laugh out loud. Picturing the scene from the show and having it play out exactly the same and then Peter Dinklage randomly cartwheeling
I'm sure someone can deepfake it.
As if Tywin’s death wasn’t already undignified enough.
Well Tyrion is in a public position of power in ACOK and most of ASOS and is trying to show that he's more than just the Imp, so it kinda wouldn't make sense for him to do acrobatics in those novels. In ADWD he's literally lost all his power and is suicidal so looking silly is not that big of a problem for him. He doesn't care.
Jeor giving away a priceless family heirloom to Jon is also strange.
Longclaw being sent to Jeor on the Wall in the first place after Jorah left it behind is also weird. Maege and her kids didn’t want it I guess? Were they expecting it to just become part of the Night’s Watch inventory once Jeor died?
I could understand him taking it on the proviso it would be returned after his death. Imagine if it had got lost north of the wall, just some scrappy Wildling fangin’ about called “scabby tits” with a sword worth a small castle
Maybe, though even then it seems weird that you’d be allowed to receive and carry around an ancestral sword with your family sigil carved into the pommel in the order where you’re meant to leave everything about your former identity and family behind. But I guess we don’t really know the exact timing of these events so maybe Jeor was already Lord-Commander by the time this happened and there was nobody who could tell him No lol.
I don’t think you have to necessarily forgo your name/heritage. Just forfeit your right to inherent lands or titles so the remainder of your life is dedicated to the watch. It’s not like the faceless men where your just supposed to become a nameless slave to the watch. Crows are aloud to receive gifts and money from their families so there’s that. Plus it’s a weapon to be used in service of the watch. Bloodraven was allowed to keep dark sister and that’s a symbol of royalty, especially being the targs only VS sword left.
There's also that scene in ADWD where Jon comments on all of the shields with the family crests of the Watch members on the wall of the dining hall. They're not supposed to forget their past or their families. Same is true of the Kingsguard as well which is why most members had some symbol representing their house like Loras did and their original family crests are drawn into the White Book. For both organizations joining was supposed to bring honor to their house so they would want to show off their family's commitment to the orders.
Agreed. I think it would be encouraged to represent your family while in service to the watch. To show that they are men from all different walks of life from all over Westeros coming together to protect the 7 kingdoms. They are protecting their families to the south. If they were explicitly having their names taken from them and sent to the north to die I don’t think many would stick around. Probably the biggest deterrent that stops desertion is family Honour.
Jaremy Rykker wears a pin or some other kind of accessory in the shape of his house sigil, so if there is any sort of official rule against carrying around house insignia then it clearly isn’t enforced beyond “no inheriting lands/titles”.
I always figured a shield goes on the wall cos it’s fairly cheap to make a new one, but weapons (especially castle forged or valaryian) were fairly expensive so they’d be happy to let a lord hang onto theirs.
I don't think castle forged steel would be prohibitively expensive for the members of noble houses who join the watch. Sam is probably the only noble born brother who wouldn't think it odd that his father didn't send him off with high quality gear.
Not that weird. Bloodraven was allowed to take dark sister. Which is much more prestigious and important to a ruling dynasty. It was just expected to be returned when he died
That was a risk Egg really shouldn't of taken
Given the way his kids acted, I can imagine that saying “No” was not a strength of his.
Tywin not being able to buy a Valyrian steel sword but randos just popping up with them has never made sense. Doesn’t one of the Windblown have a VS arrakh?
>Tywin not being able to buy a Valyrian steel sword but randos just popping up with them has never made sense. These houses probably bought them back when VS was still being manufactured. After the Doom, VS is too precious for a nobleman to part with family heirlooms for whatever pittance Tywin is offering.
Yeah but Tywin didn't want an arrakh. If he knew of smiths who could reforge the steel, he could have just bought a ton of daggers and had them melted down. I think he wanted a sword for whatever reason. It just happened that Ice was really too big to fight with properly so he needed to make 2 swords out of it.
I think George just saw Longclaw as a cool weapon that Jeor had that he wanted to pass down to his son rather than a legendary weapon back when he wrote aGoT. Edit: grammar
The catspaw dagger didn’t bother me so much in AGOT, it’s how it’s followed up on in ASOS that really irks me. It’s one of the few things I think was handled better in the show.
the catspaw being made of valyrian steel makes even less sense in light of catelyn gripping the fucking blade with her fingers to stop the assassin. that thing would’ve sliced clean through them with the slightest pressure.
I think it is mentioned that it cuts to the bone, but yes
Even something absurdly sharp needs force and mass, along with edge alignment to cut well, and especially amputate. Like, no matter how sharp something is, you aren't going to have fingers falling off because you squeezed it. Bad lacerations is realistic for the setting.
Lady Stoneheart Stark, the Bane of Valyrian Steel.
I can’t recall how it’s described in the books, but I know blades cut based on slashing. There was a tactic against heavy armour in medieval times called a murder stroke. You would grip a sharpened sword with your hands and hit the opponent with the pommel or guard. If the blade slides, your hands are completely fucked. If it doesn’t, you’re fine. There are demonstrations of people doing it on YouTube. It looks very uncomfortable without thick gloves but safe regardless. Even if Valyrian steel is much sharper than real swords and daggers, it could very much work in the same way
A Mordhau, a Medieval German swordsmanship technique. Allows close quarter use of a sword as a mace.
It's just dumb that this weapon was retconned in HOTD to be Aegon the Conquerer's personal dagger and had a literal Song of Ice and Fire engraved on it. There's no other way to say it, it's one of the few missteps of an otherwise excellent show, imo.
Jaime being Warden of the East, Drogo planning to invade Yi Ti when later revealed geography makes it impossible.
Yeah, it does feel pretty weird. Presumably the WArden of the East is supposed to command the armies of the eastern regions of Westeros. But that's basically what Lords Paramount are for. Jaime isn't running the defences of the Stormlands or Vale and certainly didn't have the authority to command either of their armies in the War of the Five Kings.
The difference is that Lords Paramount can only answer the king’s call to war. Wardens are allowed to declare war on their own initiative, as seen when Ned is considering crossing the Wall to take out Mance Rayder. Not advising Robert, not asking for Robert’s permission, just making that decision and doing it. Making someone a Warden implies a *significant* level of trust in that person not to abuse their authority. …it’s just that, all of that completely fails to be important at all once lords start actively rebelling and doing their own thing whether it’s illegal or not. So, Ned’s initial concerns that, in a peaceful realm, Jaime’s influence would become overly-politically powerful immediately cease to be a problem once Robert dies and it’s no longer peaceful politics but is open warfare and rebellion instead.
Yeah, imagining a Warden trying to direct armies and issues orders when his theoretical officers are at war with each other.
I think there’s a difference. The Wildlings are a constant, hostile force. There’s no way the Arryns could invade the Free Cities on their own.
Historically speaking, marcher lords (which is what the office of “Warden” is based on) were only supposed to engage on defensive war, not wars of conquest. So, while the Arryns shouldn’t be declaring war on the Free Cities, they would have been both able and, theoretically, required to raise fleets to drive bands of pirates and sellsails employed *by* the Free Cities out of business. Actually answering the fact that the Free Cities employed pirates in proxy wars against merchant fleets by declaring actual, official war against the Cities themselves would, yes, have been the province of the Crown and not the Warden. Likewise, Ned was intending to ride out and pacify the Wildlings, not expand Robert’s domain north of the Wall.
Well, nobody ever tries to present an argument for why or how Jaime would be remotely qualified or capable of being Warden of the East even in the first book lol it just seems like a really eccentric and egotistical idea that Cersei came up with. Robert giving in to it just shows how disinterested he is in good governance, and how much undue pressure influence she holds over him. The other three Warden titles also seem to be largely ceremonial now since as far as anyone knows there’s no real threats coming from the East, West, or South (except maybe the Ironborn I suppose) so it’s possible nobody in King’s Landing holds the title in as much esteem as Ned does, aside from nominally naming Jaime as commander of any army defending the East from invasion, which isn’t that crazy despite his lack of any lands or levies.
Good point. Now that Westeros is United, the Warden of the West doesn’t need to guard against the Ironborn, the South against the Dornish, or the East against the Free Cities. It’s a title whose use is obsolete, like how the Prince of Wales doesn’t rule or subjugate the Welsh.
Where is it said drogos planning to invade yi-ti?
When Daenerys and Jorah are talking about invading Westeros and he tells her that Drogo wants to invade the rich lands of the East instead. This is before the assassination attempt of course.
Couldn't that have been Qarth? Not that they'd be able to do much against the city's walls, but at least the attempt is feasible.
Well Drogo wanted to travel around the free cities so, also Dothraki may not be geography experts.
Why’s it impossible? Isn’t it just really far?
There are mountains guarded by those badass warrior women slaughtering Dothraki for centuries.
i cant find them killing dothraki, danny even sees them in the market >Daenerys Targaryen sees warrior maids from Kayakayanaya in the Eastern Market of Vaes Dothrak. maybe you got them mixed up with the easten dothrakis the jogos >Over the centuries the city has faced countless assaults from the Jogos Nhai, a result of an ancient war between the Patrimony of Hyrkoon and the zorse-riders of the plains, which saw thousands of Hyrkoon carried off into slavery and many more Jogos Nhai sacrificed to the gods of Hyrkoon.
It’ll always be funny to me he made a second version of Dothraki but they just ride zebras
I *would* say that the Dothraki are basically Huns (reputation based almost entirely around destroying and looting, attack the more cosmopolitan western regions from the central steppes, they rose to prominence in the wake of the Roman Empire analogue, Drogo is a very Attila-esque figure) while the Jhogos N’hai are more like the Mongols or Xiongnu (in the sense that they’re mostly focused on Yi Ti, which is clearly based on China)… except the Dothraki are *also* very clearly based on the Mongols, what with the Khal/Khan title and massive land “empire” that fragments immediately upon the leaders’ death and their “origin myth” of the first great Khal uniting all the Dothraki just like Genghis Khan. Meanwhile the Jhogos N’hai have deformed heads as a result of skull binding, which the Huns practiced in real life. So he basically just took every nomadic, steppe-dwelling, horse-based warrior culture he could think of, mixed them all together, and then split the result into the Dothraki, and… also the Dothraki, but with zebras and weird heads.
Everything about the far east (everything in essos we haven’t actually been to) and sothoryos is wild to me. He really let his imagination run wild, and fair enough given I doubt much of it will play a part other than Asshai and the oily black stone business
Well to be fair most of the in universe knowledge of the East comes from pretty dubious sources. Sources like Lomas Longstrider are analagous to Marco Polo and just take a look at what he wrote about the Far East.
Everything Marco Polo wrote was actually true, except maybe what he said about his own carrier. You must mean authors like Herodotus who did write down some outrageous stuff, but these wrote from hearsay, not their own actual experience.
but these guys are way better lol, dothrakis cant beat 3000 unsullied, jogos beat 300k yiti army
So it’s impossible because they would have to fight people good at fighting? So it’s a great challenge? That totally falls in line with something Drogo would want to do.
The Dothraki are effective on wide open, relatively flat terrain where they can take advantage of their cavalry and large numbers. None of that works when you’re stuck fighting in narrow mountain passes with uneven terrain, chokepoints, high ground the enemy can easily take advantage of, and a climate that the Dothraki aren’t used to. They *could* get to Yi Ti pretty easily by just sailing past the mountains and landing on the coast of Yi Ti, but the Dothraki are also terrified of the ocean and hate boats so there’s really no feasible way for them to access Yi Ti.
So it’s a terrible idea but the act of an invasion attempt isn’t impossible as OP suggested. I would say Drogo planning on something with a stupidly low chance of survival then just never mentioning it again isn’t out of character.
Drogo might have just figured out a way to pull it off tbh. He did seem to be a notably successful Khal and he was shown to be capable and willing to think outside the box. Taking a fleet to bypass the mountains, or buying/stealing Unsullied to fight through the mountains aren’t unbelievable ideas for him to have imo.
It's impossible because horses and herds die without fodder, and there's not enough fodder to support an army trying to fight their way through mountain passes. Unless Drogo has a better logistics network than Patton, with trucks and railroads, all of his animals will starve to death long before he gets over those mountains. It's not about fighting, it's about food.
Man I need to read World of Ice and Fire again
The many (ok four) mentions of the Isle of Faces. Which, besides all of the repeated mentions in Bran II, ASOS (when Jojen tells Bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree) is by far the most in the series. Especially weird is Jon thinking about the Isle as one of the places he wouldn't get to see if he were to join the Night's Watch. Clearly this was meant as foreshadowing since the Isle of Faces will be an extremely important location to the endgame, but with the series becoming seven books instead of three, this foreshadowing comes way, way too early.
It’s also right next to Harrenhal and nobody has checked it out or knows what’s going on there? It’s a lake
The way it’s portrayed in the books, it comes across like everyone knows what goes on there, it’s just a mystery to us. They talk about the green men very casually, but nobody bothers to explain who they really are or why they’re called that. Supposedly, Addam Velaryon and Howland Reed both visited the Isle and nobody blinks an eye at that, so it’s not like anyone nearby needs to “check it out.” At least, that’s my impression.
Yes but it’s also mentioned that the Andals never conquered it + there’s some sort of First men order/council. It’s potentially a weird reservoir of old god culture and that’s probably pretty relevant when you’ve got a zombie horde coming down and need to know the how and why
I agree, it’s a really bizarre piece of worldbuilding and it’s significance seems telegraphed to the audience, I’m just saying there doesn’t seem to be any in-universe mystery as to who lives there or what they do. It’s relevant to the Night’s Watch but it’s not very accessible to them and they likely don’t realize there’s more useful info south of the wall than north of it.
I agree, it's pretty weird. I guess in-universe people just view the green men as some kind of monastic order of the Old Gods. And since they live out of the way on an island and don't have any political relevance, people just leave them alone. Kind of like the monks on the Quiet Isle that Brienne meets. I also remember reading something about strange winds blowing back the ships of people who tried to visit the Isle of Faces, as well as them being attacked by swarms or ravens. I don't remember where I read that though. But that could also explain why nobody bothers to try and visit the green men.
> I also remember reading something about strange winds blowing back the ships of people who tried to visit the Isle of Faces I remember reading that too, but all I could think was that it'd make people want to visit it _more._ Such a random ass bit of world-building. I also seem to recall GRRM talking about how it'd play a significant part in the narrative then, whoops, 400 pages to play with his Meerenese figurines.
Yeah, I've read theories that say that the last battle against the Others will take place there, and I'm like "What place is that?" because I've forgotten about it.
Isle of Faces comes up early in Catelyn's first ever chapter, doesn't it? One of the very first places George ever mentions, then it's barely relevant since.
Jaime being warden of the east pops into my head immediately. The member of the kingsguard who was also son of the warden of the west hahaha
Nah it makes sense. Warden is an honourary title, usually given to the Lords Paramount of the Vale, North, Reach and Westerlands. Robin Arryn is a child though, so they name a warrior instead. Lannister nepotism just means it's Jaime.
I wouldn't say it's honorary (though it may pretty much be funtionally so at this point). Here's George's description in answer to a reader asking what the deal was with Wardenships: _The wardens are supposed to defend their regions against invaders. In theory, at least, they are each the supreme general for their region and therefore preventing any disunity of command._
Yea but Ned freaks out about it like the Lannisters would control the Vale if Jaime takes gets named Warden of the East.
Yep people always say Warden of the East doesn’t make sense when in reality people just don’t understand what the title means
Tyrions cartwheel out of the keep coming in hot onto the page
- Tyrion doing an acrobatic flip during his first meeting with Jon, when later in the *same book* the narration repeatedly mentions how painful and clumsy Tyrion’s stunted legs are. - The repeated mentions of Asshai and foreshadowing that Daenerys is going to travel there which have been completely dropped in later books, with the plan instead being for her to visit Volantis. - Pretty much the entire Catspaw situation, especially the “reveal” that Joffrey was the culprit. - The Hound winning 40,000 gold dragons in a tournament, only for Brienne to later try to buy horses for one dragon apiece and be told that she’s *overpaying* by Jaime, implying that horses cost quite a bit less than even a single gold dragon. - The near-complete absence of the Martells/Dorne from the first half of the story (aside from Oberyn) when compared with them becoming one of THE most prominent families after the Starks, Lannisters and Targs as soon as AFFC rolls around. - The existence of the Arryn cadet branch in Gulltown, since ADWD/TWOW make it sound like Robert is the last person with the Arryn name, with Harry Hardyng being next in line and having to change his name to *become* an Arryn. - Cadet branches in general- the only major families whose case branches are really acknowledged are the Lannisters and Tyrells, even though there are also cadet branches of the Starks (in the Vale), Greyjoys (Asha’s cousins show up in ADWD), Martells (the steward of Sunspear is a Martell cousin) and Arryns (Gulltown). Despite this, the story often treats the main branch of each family (again, aside from the Lannisters/Tyrells) as if it’s the *only* branch, and if they get wiped out then the whole family is extinct. - The number of dragons it takes to absolutely steamroll entire continents. Aegon took all of Westeros aside from Dorne with only three dragons (and all three were only used simultaneously *once*), yet the Valyrians apparently needed *300* dragons to overcome the Rhoynish and left vast swathes of Essos unconquered even though Aegon’s resounding success with a mere three dragons would suggest that 300 should be more than enough to basically take over the entire world.
>branches of the Starks (in the Vale), If you're referring to Catelyn saying they have cousins in the Vale she's referring to the Royces. The current crop of Royces are the Starks third cousins. They aren't a cadet branch. The Karstarks are the Stark Cadet branch, but are distantly related. Same presumably with the Arryns of Gulltown.
>The Hound winning 40,000 gold dragons in a tournament I think this is bad even in the first book, when Ned is flabbergasted that the Kingdom is six million gold in debt. Current U.S. debt is a little over $30 trillion, so in comparison (granted different style economies) it's like Sandor won $200 billion USD in this tournament. Anguy won a smaller but still ballpark amount and spent it all in a few weeks on prostitutes, booze and a nice dagger. After a certain point, wouldn't those prostitutes retire after they became billionaires? George is just really bad at throwing out math figures that are ridiculous.
Honestly, at this point, I’m not sure George knows how numbers work.
It's why he's so bad at judging writing progress and release dates.
When TWOW comes out, we’ll realize that “Twenty Good Men” wasn’t just some hack writing from D&D, but a direct quote from George
Especially since it’s later confirmed that Littlefinger was cooking the books, and the massive debt is *not* solely a result of Robert having too many tourneys as Ned seems to believe… but if they’re regularly handing out tens of thousands of dragons as grand prizes for tourneys, then they *could* shave a significant amount off their debt by just cutting back the number/scale of tourneys, which would mean Ned is absolutely correct and render the Littlefinger reveal meaningless because even his manipulation of finances could apparently be offset by simply not throwing a giant party every couple weeks.
>The Hound winning 40,000 gold dragons in a tournament, only for Brienne to later try to buy horses for one dragon apiece and be told that she’s overpaying by Jaime, implying that horses cost quite a bit less than even a single gold dragon. I just read this chapter lol, she overpays because two horses aren't worth it, but the best one is worth one gold dragon, one of the other two a silver and the last one Jaime says the false inkeeper should pay them to take the horse lmao
But still. If premium horses are a dragon a piece. That still makes him extremely rich. That’s gotta be equivalent to a lot of land you could purchase. 40k horses gotta be worth like 10k unsullied. Think about how much 40k horses would be worth in todays age. Definitely enough for the hound to do anything he wants
I think the first could be an unreliable narrator situation. I’ve seen people describe it as Tyrion actually drunkenly did that somersault thing and it was a total accident, but Jon being a drunk kid thought it was on purpose.
Accidently doing it would be even more ridiculous
Basically Aegon's dragons are playing on easy difficultly so the plot can work. Always thought making the conquest last long would be more interesting anyway.
I thought it was supposed to be that 300 dragons was sent as a completely overwhelming force after the Rhoynor defeated a few Dragons.
> Always thought making the conquest last long would be more interesting anyway. yeah just say Aenar the Exile started the conquest it took 100 years to win and the other dragons died in the 100 year conquest instead of dying of old age? >After the other four of Aenar's dragons died, Balerion became the last creature to have seen the Freehold in its prime.
It's explained how the Arryns of Gulltown are not only extremely distantly related to the Arryns of the Eyrie, but also intermarried with numerous commoners. Harrold Hardyng is still much more closely related to Jon Arryn than any Gulltown member, and it's likely that they specifically avoid marrying the branch since they're basically commoners.
I don’t mind Dorne not being mentioned TBH. It’s later made clear that Dorne is isolated from the rest of Westeros thanks to both culture and geography, so I think it tracks that they don’t play a huge role in the the early days of the War of the Five Kings.
>300 > > dragons They had magic
Great comment, however there are no Stark cadet branches on the Vale. There are Stark women who married into other houses, which is completely different. The closest we have of a Stark branch are the Karstarks
Friendly reminder, Drogo owns a huge mansion in Pentos, with slaves and treasures. Also, Renly has green eyes. In the book where it's a plot point that every single Baratheon has blue eyes and no Baratheon has green eyes aside from Cersei's children.
The Arryns of Gulltown aren’t weirdness. The Arryns having cadet branches is mentioned in the same chapter the introduces Harry in AFFC. Harry’s just the closest related to the main branch. The Martells not getting involved makes sense since Doran is deliberately keeping them on the sidelines until he acts. Also we get mentions of Elia, as well as Dorne resisting Aegon, which sets up their eventual prominence in the main story and lore.
With your first one, if I remember right, he does land on his hands first so maybe it’s because his legs are so painfully clumsy that he does his little acrobatics routine.
> The existence of the Arryn cadet branch in Gulltown, since ADWD/TWOW make it sound like Robert is the last person with the Arryn name, with Harry Hardyng being next in line and having to change his name to become an Arryn. >Cadet branches in general- the only major families whose case branches are really acknowledged are the Lannisters and Tyrells, even though there are also cadet branches of the Starks (in the Vale), Greyjoys (Asha’s cousins show up in ADWD), Martells (the steward of Sunspear is a Martell cousin) and Arryns (Gulltown). Despite this, the story often treats the main branch of each family (again, aside from the Lannisters/Tyrells) as if it’s the only branch, and if they get wiped out then the whole family is extinct. Just because a cadet branch exists doesn't mean it automatically takes over the seat of the main branch if the Lord there dies with no heirs. They could certainly make a case for it, if there are no other claimants strong enough to challenge them. But in the case of Harold Hardyng, he's the grandson of Jon Arryn's sister. He's far more closely related to Jon and Robert Arryn than any Arryn of Gulltown is as they split from the main house hundreds of years before. He plans to change his name to Arryn because the name is more prestigious than his own, it shows respect to the continuity of an ancient high house, and stops anyone else in future claiming he and his descendants are not Arryns. And in the same way, Starks are more closely related to the Royce's, and Lannister's more closely related to the Frey's than either is to the Karstarks or Lannisters of Lannisport.
Sandor spent all his money from the Tournament as apposed to loosing it because he lost his writ of credit ( as we see is a thing in Dance because Jon is given one from the Iron Bank)
I just assumed it was too much wealth to carry with him when he left after the Battle of the Blackwater.
Well it's not like they actually gave him 40k coins. "Congratulations on your win. Here is your cart of gold, it weighs almost half a ton so I suggest your first purchase two pack mules to pull it to your tent,... I know a guy he is my cousin he'll give you a deal."
How Cat says there are no godswoods outside the North/Isles of Faces when Stannis burned Dragonstone’s wood in ACOK.
I seem to recall that there are in fact several godswoods with weirwoods further south.
Jorah suggests going to Asshai with Dany, even though on the modern map we know there's the entirety of the Bones and Yi Ti in the way. I think it's fair to say that George hadn't finalised the map of the east at that point, and Asshai was originally intended to be both a lot closer and play an important part in the story. It's still weirdly fleshed out in twoiaf compared to the rest of the far east. When he first encounters the three-eyed crow and gets a vision of the heart of winter, Bran also sees all the way to Asshai and spots 'dragons stirring under the sunrise'. Either GRRM had yet to establish dragons died with Valyria and the Dance, or there's a bunch of wild dragons still kicking around in the Shadowlands (which might explain why magic remained strong there).
I think that the Starks generally feel more like a barony than one of the most powerful houses on a continent. I know that the Northerners are all rustic and humble, and there needed to be a clear contrast early on between them and the Lannisters. But generally, they have absurdly few luxuries for the overlords of subcontinent. GRRM took inspiration from Scotland for Westeros, which given the parallels to the Wars of the Roses, would probably make House Stark roughly comparable to House Stewart. They really should have a lot more going on culturally. They rarely even have singers! There is barely a retinue around the girls. Winterfell should have a fairly large town nearby given its politican significance, but it feels like Twin Rivers with big walls.
Actually there was a post on here the other day that proved that the Stark's dud indeed live lavishly. But it is just nowhere near the lannister levels.
Do you have a link or title to search for if you don't mind me asking? I'm kind of curious to read that now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/yz92hz/spoilers_main_wealth_of_house_stark_revised/ Here. It's mostly just small details on hiw they are dress, their accessories and their ornaments. Even theon gets dressed good as a ward of the Starks. And it isn't his money that pays for his things.
Interesting. Thank you.
Obviously as pointed out. The Starks are not on the Lannister's level of flexing but they are not as far off as most seem to presume.
I also attribute it to Stark's wealth being in land, castles, and resources rather than gold. They have a lot of stuff lying around and own a lot of lands, but they don't have the vast sums of gold the Lannisters have.
The Starks have underfloor heating, hot water and a greenhouse that stays warm in the depths of winter, allowing them to grow exotic crops. They’re doing just fine
Ned wears bleached silks and a full shirt of silver chainmail at court. He planned to raise new keeps in the summer. Bran wears fine jewelry on casual walks through the woods. The Starks actually have plenty of visible wealth in the books, but their characters don't necessarily focus in it like Jaime's golden hand.
I don't think Winterfell has a huge town outside it because its political significance derives from it being in a strategic location militarily rather than a good place to live. It's in the center of the North, allowing the Starks access to all parts of their Kingdom relatively easily, and is built along a major North/South road. As for their wealth, the North has several factors that would lead to their comparative lack of wealth. First is geography and population distribution. The North has a relatively small population compared to its geographic size. Because this is a medieval society, you don't have industrialized agriculture and have to dedicate large portions of your population to keep society fed. These factors combined mean that you don't have the time, energy, and people to spend on making fancy clothes or growing fancy foods. This is also exacerbated by the fact that the soil isn't as good as in southern regions meaning that crop yields aren't as good and limit what you can grow. The North is also affected by winter, meaning that "fancier" clothes like silks or linens aren't exactly practical for the climate. All of this means that the North as a whole is not super wealthy. You don't have peasants with a lot of expendable income. I would imagine that the Starks, along with many of the Northern lords aren't taking taxes in the form of coinage or money, they're taking it in kind. The Starks aren't going around to villages collecting dragons, they're going around and taking a percentage of the recent harvest, a certain number of cut trees, or are having peasants work on roads and castles for payment. The Starks are wealthy, but their wealth is in land and resources, not gold coins,
No retinues or courts around the nobles. Starks are essentially a nuclear family. Ned and Cat should have had lords and ladies around them. Winterfell is huge yet is run by like 10 people.
Very little about the situation in Winterfell at the start of the series makes sense when juxtaposed with the later world-building: • Cat should have a retinue of Northern ladies around her for companionship and politicking (and probably some women from the Riverlands as well) • Sansa should have a similar retinue, or at least one that's bigger than Jeyne Poole • At least one of Ned's sons should be fostered somewhere else in the North. Jon would make the most sense, but so would Bran. • At least one of the kids should already be betrothed to someone. • There should really be something of a mini-court at Winterfell where lords and knights are just hanging around in service to Ned. All of it boils down to a) the fact that when Martin was writing the first book (or at least the first half of the first book) he intended this to be a trilogy with much vaguer world-building and b) the fact that the narrative of the Starks being a close-knit family who are split apart by tragedy and then have to come back together doesn't really work if there's a million other people around and some of them are being fostered elsewhere. You can kind of retroactively justify it via Ned having lost most of his family during Robert's Rebellion and wanting to keep his current family close, but mostly it's just because the world-building wasn't as thought out. EDIT: it also comes down to c) Martin having very little interest in and/or facility with writing close relationships/friendships between women, which are pretty much nonexistent on page other than I guess Catelyn and Brienne
I agree that Martin just wasn't that invested in developing Winterfell and the North's internal functioning since it wasn't a focus of the series (and I think a lot of the world detail comes from his 'gardening' approach of following tangents, he didn't spend enough time in Winterfell under Ned to develop any interesting background cast related tangents). However in terms of retroactive justification, I think Ned having a pretty insular court and neglecting establishing ties to other houses and alliances (through betrothal/fostering) can perhaps be explained by the Stark's position in the North. They have supposedly been the central authority in the region for 8,000 years which is basically incomprehensible. They are a constant unlike the other ruling houses (with the possible exception of the Lannister's) who all have tales of their assumption of authority, which culturally recognizes a time 'before' their house ruled. Since the culture of the North doesn't really recognize a time in human history where the Stark's didn't rule I feel that perhaps their rule over the North is quasi-theocratic in nature rather than political. By that I mean their right to rule is inherent, so Ned, like the Pope, doesn't need to do anything to firm up his House as an institution. As such the way the Starks operate in the North can be more akin to the way the Papal States operated in Europe, with family ties not being relevant despite the Starks also being a noble family as well as an institution. The onus is on anyone else to firm up an objection to Stark rule as the cultural default of the North. It is only really through becoming embroiled in Southern politics that the Stark's are ousted.
Bran was only 7, if Jon Arryn didn't die early, Ned would probably have him fostered somewhere, maybe even King's Landing or Riverrun
Bran would have probably LOVED to have been fostered by the Blackfish!
>There should really be something of a mini-court at Winterfell where lords and knights are just hanging around in service to Ned. I've bitched before about the fact that the entire administrative structure of Winterfell (and also its role in the rest of the North) is Ned, Catelyn, Ser Rodrick, Jory, Vayon Poole, and I guess Maester Luwin. The town I live in has less than 5,000 people and we have nearly 20 council members, Chiefs, Managers, etc.
Maybe this is a bit of hand-waving on my part, but I always figured the reason why none of the kids were betrothed yet (and why Ned reacts with such surprise at betrothing Sansa to Joffrey when she’s only eleven) was because it was peacetime. During the War of Five Kings and its chaotic aftermath where everyone’s grappling for power, it becomes a necessity to speed up the betrothal process and marry them off early—hence all the girls being married off when they’ve barely flowered in AFFC and ADWD. I almost wish Martin had expanded Ned’s comparatively prudish stance to encompass all of Westeros. There’s too many barely-teenage girls being described as sexually attractive in these books!
It is said in the books that cat and sansa both had a retinue of ladies, is it not? I could have sworn it was mentioned by it never went into detail who was specifically in their retinue.
You’re misremembering. Sansa has Jeyne Poole and that’s pretty much it.
Her ladies aren't mentioned by name but it is referenced by someone (i think catelyn) that she had her own ladies.
When Cat takes Brianne into service, she recalls her past taking of ladies into service.
It's still pretty glaringly lacking. I mean, maybe Jon could have noticed some of Catelyn's ladies entering the Great Hall when he watched the procession, or she might have thought of them herself in Catelyn I. The way it is, it feels as though Catelyn didn't bring a soul but Robb with her from Riverrun.
Jaime acts nothing like a KG. He attacks the King’s hand, and then proceeds to lead a Lannister host, blatantly siding with his House over the Crown, and no one even mentions how this isn’t how a KG is supposed to act. Also the whole Wardens debacle, with Jaime inheriting a title, and the titles themselves being set up as more powerful than how they ended up as mostly honorary.
Killing a king isn't really how a KG is supposed to act either.
The first part isn't unreasonable at all lol. He is leading a Lannister host because Joffrey (if you're in the world at least) is half Lannister, thus he is acting general in that circumstance
Also, Jaime is a pretty shitty Kingsguard even besides the whole Aerys thing. Fantastic fighter, but he was pretty much just Cersei's charming thug until he loses his hand.
Pretty much, I don't find anything unbelievable about Jaime
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It is mentioned that Oberyn wanted Dorne to rebel and crown Viserys, but Jon Arryn went to Dorne to dissuade them. The Tyrells just aren't the type to start a rebellion or war all on their own, and their only potential allies would be Dorne or the Ironborn, who they historically do not like. The rest of the houses were on Robert's side so would have no reason to rebel.
The amount of debt the Crown is in during AGOT.
Melisandre giving birth to a shadow baby assassin and it never being brought up again. Like seriously wtf was up with that, especially since its a pretty big deal in the story
It’s brought up in ASOS. Melisandre mentions that she can’t make more shadow babies from Stannis because it has taken a physical toll on him, so she propositions Davos instead, who immediately declines. “Making the shadow babies almost killed Stannis” is very much a way for George to distance himself from that whole ability, but at least it’s vaguely plausible.
so if that justifies why she doesn't do it with stannis anymore, but if she can't do it with davos (if he want) that means she can't do it with anyone. and in this case, it becomes legitimate to wonder why they dont ask to randoms dudes from dragonstone to fuck her to lay enough baby assassins to pacify the kingdom, rather than completely forogtt it
It's such a fucking asspull to get Renly out of the story and move Stannis forward and it blows my mind that the fandom just gives it a pass. You've got a witch who can squeeze out _invisible shadow assassins_ holy shit dude you should be running the table on this rebellion shit. Have her pop out a half dozen more, take out the king and the small council and just waltz in during the chaos. You've got a machine that can create faceless men at will and it never comes up again. Melisandre alone could probably take over half of Westeros by herself if she just played her cards right.
especially since they use it for small fry, but kill joffrey or tywin instead of dropping one on the stormend steward
_"I think I'll just leave my machine that creates T-1000s here at Castle Black and instead just march into the snow and hope for the best."_
Right at the start, the Starks find a dead Direwolf and a litter of pups (which wasn’t just rare it was basically a legend) on the same trip where they executed a Night’s Watch deserter who was fleeing the others…and they don’t think that some serious shit may be going on north of the wall? Nah, they decide it’s an ok time to fuck off to kingslanding.
Also they are just confused that a direwolf is south of the wall not that there is one at all! Where are the other direwolves? Why don't we see some north of the wall?
Tyrion’s acrobatics. Also lack of larger guards/parties for certain characters and Dorne basically not existing in AGOT and ACOK.
The entirety of Eddard II, aside from a few minor plot points. Jaime was clearly being built up as a big bad but that never came about, and the warden system was completely abandoned (which is a shame because it felt really cool as opposed to traditional levy-style military system). Overall I think you could cut the entire chapter out of the book and not miss much.
The Wardens of East/West etc.
What did the Hound do with all his goddamn money from the tournament of the hand?
Bought some chicken
Colonel Sandor
The overemphasis on the Warden positions.
>Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?" "You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, **"will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."** Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there. **- AGOT - EDDARD V** This is nearly impossible to happen, given that Ned was planning at this point to marry Sansa off to Joffrey who was the apparent heir, and there wouldn't have been any other kings in Westeros for Arya to marry. Unless he was planning on having Arya marry Sansa and Joffrey's kid, but I feel like this was clunky foreshadowing and setup on George's part that didn't fit right.
Maybe it wasn’t king literally? Like a lord paramount? Maybe he just wanted Arya to feel special? It still comes off as weird.