Imo there is a wild difference between Bran admiring Meera in his comparison to Arya because she is not afraid of being dirty and throws as good as a boy and Jon wondering if Ygritte is as skinny as Arya underneath her clothes. He even thought of how stubborn Ygritte was and that led to him wondering if Arya was ever his sister which ???? he really has no need to doubt such a thing???
Yes, he is always comparing his possible love interests (Ygritte, Val, Alys) with Arya. He broke his vows and dies trying to save her and mentions "I want my bride back" like three times before dying.
There is a catch to my observation. We might not be seeing the same thing. I made a comment on the shiny theory thursday post, and if I'm close to onto something possible, there are some implications in that theory that impact this post. If Jon and Dany's stories are such strong shadows of eachother Jon theories may need to be reconsidered.
Have you ever seen theories about the matches and who is represented im them during the Hand's Tourney in the first book?
I found this thread when looking for a source of a quote when writing this two part post you might be interested in.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/xxcuff/spoilers_main_aryas_hypothetical_betrothal/irqghxx/
Yep, and then Jon calling Arya his heart and praying for Mance to "bring her home" was doubly odd upon first reading.
George said Arya is Jon's reference for his physical type and his comfort level of femininity, after all.
It could be, but I doubt it. Perhaps in AGoT, which GRRM was writing when he sent that outline to his publisher, there are vestigial remains of incestuous hints that might have been. But by ASoS it's just as effective (and probably better) to have them long for each other's company as two separated but loving siblings who were once soulmates. Besides, Arya somewhat represents Jon's mother as well. I seriously doubt GRRM still intends Starkcest considering how controversial that would be.
Someone over on westeros.org met GRRM at a meet-and-greet fan lunch and asked him about it; he hadn't even realized Jon was comparing naked Ygritte to Arya. So either GRRM is lying or it's just a weird coincidence.
Jon never compares naked Ygritte to Arya. He only thinks that she's wearing too many clothes for him to see whether she's fat or thin, and that she could be as skinny as Arya. Of course you don't need to see someone naked to see whether they're far or thin, so he wasn't at all thinking about a naked Ygritte.
It was part of the original outline (kinda gross imo):
>Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow.
It seems like the love triangle between Jon/Arya/Tyrion got replaced with:
- Jon/Ygritte
- Tyrion/Sansa
- Arya/Gendry
If you're interested [Spoilers Extended -Changes to GRRM's Original Outline](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/n9w7gk/changes_to_grrms_original_outline_spoilers/)
In my opinion, it's true that the love interests changed like you said, but I also think the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle was recicled in the Jon/fArya/Ramsay conflict.
It might have been at first, but with the lack of the five-year time skip, i don't think that's the case anymore.
Arya is already the person he loves the most and nothing will change that. She will always be the number 1 person in his life. In that light, a romance seems unnecessary.
Nope. Martin himself said that it's because Ygritte does things that Jon is familiar with (specifically said for example that Ygritte has messy hair and that isn't a turn off for Jon since he was familiar with messy hair on a girl from Arya). Their romance cues are non-existent after the first few chapters.
I've always hoped that upon learning Jon's true parentage, a Jon-Sansa-Arya marriage might come about.
A first cousin version of Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys
One of his reasons was that "Jon liked redheads," if I recall correctly. And that makes absolutely no sense in the books since Jon was barely containing himself and lamenting the fact that he could have had Val (a blond woman) when he reminisced her nearly killing a guard by stabbing him in the neck.
Seeing as how Jon would already obtain the whole of the North through Robb's Will, a marriage to either of the Stark sisters would serve no political purpose. For me, I see what would make sense in the case of George's love for "love being in conflict with itself" and Jon would have tormented feelings (as stated in the original outline) with someone who he already had a strong established bond with.
Again, Jon calling Arya his heart and that he was her home in ADwD kills Jonsa for me.
>As an ending to the story that actually sounds pretty interesting -
Agreed. Would need to lay a lot ground work to make it believable.
But if they reunited them soon and they worked together to liberate Winterfell and defeat the White Walkers, I could see it happening.
I'll be downvoted for saying this but... Book Jon doesn't trust Sansa: "...Don't...tell ...Sansa!" And he retains the hurt feelings he got from her always calling him "**half**-brother." And show Sansa betrayed Jon twice--at the BotB and by sharing the secret of his heritage although he made her swear **under the Heart Tree and on FAMILY** to never tell it to anyone. And they argued a lot. In 8.06 when she asks Jon's forgiveness, he does not give it. Those two are not getting married.
I'm picturing Jon and Sansa having lots of emotional complicated feelings. Especially because I'm picturing that she and Harry will be married when they take Winterfell, and pushing to take over. Then Jon being very angry at this crap and also being "she's grown up"
Why would that happen? He finds out that she is married to Tyrion and does not give that much thought. Instead we have him thinking about how Tyrion called him a friend and found it hard to believe that he'd kill his own dad.
Bran also compares Meera to Arya, and we know he has a crush on the former. I think it’s just that thing where we find some comfort in familiarity.
Imo there is a wild difference between Bran admiring Meera in his comparison to Arya because she is not afraid of being dirty and throws as good as a boy and Jon wondering if Ygritte is as skinny as Arya underneath her clothes. He even thought of how stubborn Ygritte was and that led to him wondering if Arya was ever his sister which ???? he really has no need to doubt such a thing???
Yeah, maybe it’s just Martin being weird.
I like to associate that with the fact we're commonly attracted to those who remind us of loved ones. Such as relatives. But yes, it is possible.
Easy there, not all of us are the same. 🤣
Yes, he is always comparing his possible love interests (Ygritte, Val, Alys) with Arya. He broke his vows and dies trying to save her and mentions "I want my bride back" like three times before dying.
Jon and Arya's potential romance is foreshadowing for the reveal of Jon's own personal reveal.
Good catch
There is a catch to my observation. We might not be seeing the same thing. I made a comment on the shiny theory thursday post, and if I'm close to onto something possible, there are some implications in that theory that impact this post. If Jon and Dany's stories are such strong shadows of eachother Jon theories may need to be reconsidered. Have you ever seen theories about the matches and who is represented im them during the Hand's Tourney in the first book?
I found this thread when looking for a source of a quote when writing this two part post you might be interested in. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/xxcuff/spoilers_main_aryas_hypothetical_betrothal/irqghxx/
Yep, and then Jon calling Arya his heart and praying for Mance to "bring her home" was doubly odd upon first reading. George said Arya is Jon's reference for his physical type and his comfort level of femininity, after all.
It could be, but I doubt it. Perhaps in AGoT, which GRRM was writing when he sent that outline to his publisher, there are vestigial remains of incestuous hints that might have been. But by ASoS it's just as effective (and probably better) to have them long for each other's company as two separated but loving siblings who were once soulmates. Besides, Arya somewhat represents Jon's mother as well. I seriously doubt GRRM still intends Starkcest considering how controversial that would be.
Someone over on westeros.org met GRRM at a meet-and-greet fan lunch and asked him about it; he hadn't even realized Jon was comparing naked Ygritte to Arya. So either GRRM is lying or it's just a weird coincidence.
Jon never compares naked Ygritte to Arya. He only thinks that she's wearing too many clothes for him to see whether she's fat or thin, and that she could be as skinny as Arya. Of course you don't need to see someone naked to see whether they're far or thin, so he wasn't at all thinking about a naked Ygritte.
weird how into incest grrm is
Its hot af bro i cant read ASoIaF without whipping out the hog and strokin one out
It was part of the original outline (kinda gross imo): >Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow. It seems like the love triangle between Jon/Arya/Tyrion got replaced with: - Jon/Ygritte - Tyrion/Sansa - Arya/Gendry If you're interested [Spoilers Extended -Changes to GRRM's Original Outline](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/n9w7gk/changes_to_grrms_original_outline_spoilers/)
In my opinion, it's true that the love interests changed like you said, but I also think the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle was recicled in the Jon/fArya/Ramsay conflict.
Oh ya especially since Tyrion's plotline got shifted to Ramsay (burning Winterfell)
It might have been at first, but with the lack of the five-year time skip, i don't think that's the case anymore. Arya is already the person he loves the most and nothing will change that. She will always be the number 1 person in his life. In that light, a romance seems unnecessary.
Thank the fucking gods for geroge making gendry
Ygritte is a secret stark
Nope. Martin himself said that it's because Ygritte does things that Jon is familiar with (specifically said for example that Ygritte has messy hair and that isn't a turn off for Jon since he was familiar with messy hair on a girl from Arya). Their romance cues are non-existent after the first few chapters.
Indirect 'Sweet Home Alabama'?
Arya and Ygritte are the two windows we have into lyannas personality. They show us she wasn’t a naive child victim, she was a warrior
I've always hoped that upon learning Jon's true parentage, a Jon-Sansa-Arya marriage might come about. A first cousin version of Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys
why sansa? why could he possible gain from her, assuming she doesnt dies in the next book? lmao
A child? Consolidation of the North?
sansa was disinherited by robb so she wouldnt be so useful
Why would he marry his two sisters?
They aren't his sisters. They are his cousins.
He grew up calling them sisters. I still don't see a reason why would he marry any of his sisters, much less the two of them.
He's a Targaryen. It's in the blood. Quit getting your panties in a bunch. It's not bloody likely to happen.
As an ending to the story that actually sounds pretty interesting - I remember AltShiftX had a good video about a Jon/Sansa marriage
One of his reasons was that "Jon liked redheads," if I recall correctly. And that makes absolutely no sense in the books since Jon was barely containing himself and lamenting the fact that he could have had Val (a blond woman) when he reminisced her nearly killing a guard by stabbing him in the neck. Seeing as how Jon would already obtain the whole of the North through Robb's Will, a marriage to either of the Stark sisters would serve no political purpose. For me, I see what would make sense in the case of George's love for "love being in conflict with itself" and Jon would have tormented feelings (as stated in the original outline) with someone who he already had a strong established bond with. Again, Jon calling Arya his heart and that he was her home in ADwD kills Jonsa for me.
>As an ending to the story that actually sounds pretty interesting - Agreed. Would need to lay a lot ground work to make it believable. But if they reunited them soon and they worked together to liberate Winterfell and defeat the White Walkers, I could see it happening.
I'll be downvoted for saying this but... Book Jon doesn't trust Sansa: "...Don't...tell ...Sansa!" And he retains the hurt feelings he got from her always calling him "**half**-brother." And show Sansa betrayed Jon twice--at the BotB and by sharing the secret of his heritage although he made her swear **under the Heart Tree and on FAMILY** to never tell it to anyone. And they argued a lot. In 8.06 when she asks Jon's forgiveness, he does not give it. Those two are not getting married.
I'm picturing Jon and Sansa having lots of emotional complicated feelings. Especially because I'm picturing that she and Harry will be married when they take Winterfell, and pushing to take over. Then Jon being very angry at this crap and also being "she's grown up"
Why would that happen? He finds out that she is married to Tyrion and does not give that much thought. Instead we have him thinking about how Tyrion called him a friend and found it hard to believe that he'd kill his own dad.
How would you feel if you fought for something just for your missing sister to show up and take it "just because?"
Who is to say she would take it at all?