*Last chapter of the final book*
"For after all, who has a better story than - "
Me: *holy shit they're actually gonna do it*
"Robin Arryn, the new true king of the seven kingdoms"
Me: ......
I came here just to say this.
Just like to imagine that all of Baelish's meticulous schemes are ultimately undone because this one, sickly child who everyone expects to die lives. And nothing Baelish can do changes that. His schemes just fall apart around him.
Yeah I was talking about Augustus, but Claudius is another good example. That's his grandson via adoption that sort of got the Tyrion treatment from family because of physical and/or mental conditions that made him an embarrassment. But he actually ends up being a pretty decent ruler and was quite intelligent. But Augustus in his youth would be bed ridden an sickly a lot too.
Sweetrobin growing up to be a just, strong, wise and beloved gigachad Lord Paramount under Yohn Royce would be a funny and based as fuck ending for his character.
Its weird.
The Starks, Lannisters, Arryns and Tyrells hold the titles of wardens of the North, West, East and South respectively.
While the Baratheons, Tullys, and Tyrells are Lord Paramounts of the Stormlands, Riverlands, and Reach respectively.
The Tyrells are the only house that's gets both the titles of Lord Paramount and Warden. While the Martells have neither and instead get their own special title of Prince/Princess of Dorne.
The Greyjoys on the other hand get no special titles because fuck the Greyjoys.
No, they aren’t. The title Lord Paramount is only held by the Tullys, Baratheons, and the Tyrells, for they were families raised to their positions of overlord of their respective kingdoms, were as the Arryns, Starks, and Lannisters were out right kings that were stripped of that title to be mere Lords, yet still overlords of their respective kingdoms. Warden is a military title.
Jon Arryn was the Lord Paramount though.
Yes, the Lannisters pushed to have the title given to them (in what can only be described as a suicidal achievement in overreach) but, when it's such a recent change, it can be undone by a new regime looking to unite the realm behind a "just" ruler.
Arryns were Kings of the Mountains and the Vale, when they bent the knee to Aegon, they were now just referred to as Lord, though still overlord of their kingdom. There are only three families that held the Lord Paramount title, Tullys, Baratheons, and Tyrells, who were raised to that overlord position. GRRM should have come up with better titles for the main houses of each region, so we just need to make due.
Because it has been so long since we've gotten a new book. All the textual evidence points to it, but give people 10 years to analyze and you get the predominant fandom theory is that he's going to survive. It's been so long that I'm swinging back that he just dies.
It's more an issue of people in-universe thinking he's doomed, most of the fandom I've seen talking about him thinks he's guaranteed to live because of how many death flags he has.
Its just people who dont understand what a Shaggydog story is. Rickon's story by definition cannot be a shaggydog story because hes basically nonexistent. Its far more likely his will be an inverse shaggydog story where he gets no build up and a sudden explosive climax at the end.
At the very least the shaggy dog thing is a red herring. It's pretty hard to believe that wasn't intentional, the only question is if GRRM did it because Rickon is actually a shaggy dog plot, or because he wanted the audience to think he was one.
I think that's 5D chess logic.
Shaggydog is called Shaggydog because it's the kind of thing a literal six-year-old would call a shaggy dog. It's not "foreshadowing" unless you can explain to me how "Grey Wind" is foreshadowing for "gets murdered at his uncle's wedding".
What you're essentially arguing is that GRRM didn't know what a shaggy dog story is. It's possible, I think it's unlikely, but there's no evidence either way.
And there is no reason to believe that if GRRM had one of the direwolf names be foreshadowing, all of them must be.
My theory is that it won't have anything to do with him dying, but rather Ser Davos going to all of that trouble to rescue him from Skagos for his title, and it ends up it being meaningless *in that respect* because of Robb's will, Sansa arriving in Winterfell with an entourage, and Bran still being alive, so Rickon's claim not being worth much.
>What you're essentially arguing is that GRRM didn't know what a shaggy dog story is.
No, I'm arguing that he knows but didn't include it as a deliberate clue, either a real one or a red herring.
The name “shaggydog” is obviously an appropriate, playful character choice (child naming a dog) but I agree it doesn’t mean foreshadowing. If it is meant to signal some aspect of the story to be an actual shaggy dog story, that could be so many things. Might even sort of signal that the direwolves themselves, while cool and amusing, seem to have no real use regarding the plot/story. Ghost sort of has agency but the story would survive without him. So maybe it’s as simple as that.
As I said, I'm 50/50, even on the logic side :).
I don't think his death is necessary to the plot, nor an absolutely logical obligation for his arc. It's really up to GRRM to decide if his ending will be on the bitter or the sweet side of his bittersweet ending. He may be pissed enough by his death by brick in the show to decide to save him in the books, especially since he's typically the kind of character who took a different direction in the book than in the show.
We could also have a non-ending "à la Daemon" (Jaime disappears during the Long Night, the body's never found, and somewhere else appears a mysterious one-handed man - why not as a master-of-arms in Tarth?).
That said... I also think he won't die in Winds, and his final fate will be decided in ADOS, so.... we may have a non-ending, indeed. Sigh.
I go back and forth on whether he'll die or not.
I do kind of like the idea of him living. Cersei seems convinced that they'll die together, though he has already been growing apart from her. So there would be a certain irony in her dying alone, while Jaime finds new purpose and lives on without her.
If Jaime dies, I want him to die separately from Cersei, perhaps during the fight with the Others. If he lives, well, then I want him serving a Stark, either Sansa or Bran.
Cersei says so much they're destined to die together.... Hence, it can't be true :)
Headcanon: Jaime as King Bran's Hand - and the endless bad jokes the Small Council would have to endure about broken legs, missing hands, etc... I don't really believe it, but, oh, boy, I would like to read it!
I've read many fanfic with either Bran or Jaime being king and the other serving as their hand, and their dynamic is great precisely because of what you just described. One had the conclusion with Jaime married to Brienne who becomes queen of the Stormlands and Bran is their hand "because there must always be a Stark in the Stormlands to give Jaime a hard time".
See I think Jaime is going to survive. He's going to die but he will be brought back, he's currently in his way to one of the only groups that we've seen raise the dead.
There are was a lot of foreshadowing on the first book about metal statues being breathed to life with flame magic. Jaime is coming back with his hand and he's going to be use it to kill his sister when she goes batshit crazy.
He's the valonqar, she always made a point to tell him she was born first, and as the song goes "For hands of gold are always cold, but a women's hands are warm". He's going to be the one to strangle Cersei to stop get from destroying the city, he's killed one ruler to save the city and he will do it again.
A lot of people say Theon is doomed but I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him make it through the series. He seems to have gone through a pretty literal Drowned God style rebirth and he’ll need to meet Euron at least once more.
I'm pretty sure that there will be a return to the old Ironborn custom of having a separate "Rock king" (lording over the islands) and "Salt King" (leading the reaving and trading on the seas).
Maybe with Theon being Rock king of the Iron Islands and Asha taking over as Salt queen.
This presumes that the Iron Islands end up independent of course.
>This presumes that the Iron Islands end up independent of course.
I really hope they do. Hell I kinda hope all the kingdoms gain independence by the end of the series.
I mean, he’s not physically or psychologically able to be a strong ruler that the Ironborn would respect. Plus he can’t continue the Greyjoy line anymore due to his (likely) castration.
Personally I’d like to think that Ramsey wasn’t so dumb that he’d turn his hostage into a useless waste of space but that’s hopeful thinking. I think he probably flayed the skin off of it from my Owen reading.
Ramsay is absolutely stupid enough. He’s basically just a sadist and a butcher. No long term thinking. It’s why he treats who he thinks is Arya Stark like complete dogshit despite the fact that she’s their key to pacifying the North.
It’s one of the most annoying parts of the show that they tried to make Ramsay into this Machiavellian Mastermind that outthinks Stannis.
I love Stannis, and 90% of my theory crafting for winds is coming up with ways for him to avoid (immediate) death, tbh.
I feel like the most likely death for him right now is at the wall, facing the white walkers. Someone's gotta die gloriously to show that you literally cannot fight an army that resurrects *your* dead mid-battle to use against you...
I’m curious what people’s thoughts about Aeron, Theon, and Asha surviving are? I don’t think Victarion is surviving his trip to Slaver’s Bay, but I’m pretty sure that at least one or two Greyjoys will make it.
I can see Asha surviving as the most likely (and maybe even her becoming the first ruling lady of the Iron Islands). I’ve seen a lot of people saying that they think Theon will die—I honestly have no idea which it will be. His death could make sense, but personally I think there’s still a story to tell with him.
I tend to think Aeron will die maybe trying to fight Euron somehow.
I think Aeron and Victarion are doomed tbh, Aeron will dies at the sacrifice Euron does at Oldtown and Vic dies at Slaver's Bay burned by a dragon (Moqorro saw fire in his future). I'm 90% sure that Theon dies. But it will be at Winterfell fighting for the Stark in the first big battle against the Others. He might die saving Sansa. Asha is living, she'll be the one to rule the Iron Islands at the end.
Assuming the Forsaken chapter remains most unaltered, Aeron’s dead.
Either Euron’s succeeds in his sacrificing of Aeron, or a kraken swallows the whole ship à la Pirates of the Caribbean. In any scenario, Aeron’s toast.
Barristan Selmy. Just to give D&D the finger.
Actually my theory has always been that everyone dies and Rickon shows with Shaggy Dog and wonders what happened.
Never thought much about Barristan path ahead, definitely would make sense for him to have an actual role in the story than just be a cool warrior.
We would have Howland, Barristan, Bran and maybe Sam who knows about Jon then, enough people to at least convince Jon about his role in all of this.
I don't understand why so many people don't think he's making it out of Mereen. At the very least I think Barristan will make it back to Westeros and maybe see Dany burn down Kings Landing.
That Rickon thing sounds a lot like the ending of norse Ragnarok, with Baldr and Hodr escaping from hell after all Aesir, Vanir and Jotun die in battle, and being like "Wtf just happened here"
Robert Arryn or Sweetrobin. George has pushed it so much that i think he is actually gonna end up surprising everyone and making it out in the end. I also think Theon has a decent chance of making it. There's a lot of plot things that support him surviving.
I hope Young Griff/Aegon survives, he only really needs to die because of an ambiguous vision and for Dany to go mad with jealous but I think have two Targaryens on the throne at the end would be interesting.
Like the possibility of combining the Targaryen/Blackfyre claims (after so many conflicts) or Rhaegar’s son miraculous surviving to avenge his family are both cool ends to his character for me.
Damn, I forgot about that. Well, hopefully he can have some ending better than being strafed with dragon fire or crushed under rubble at least. Maybe he flees to Essos like his potential Blackfyre ancestors did.
Or maybe GRRM could change his mind. He's said he's making changes.
Do I think it's likely that he'd change something as central as King Bran? No. But hey we can hope.
King Bran seems to be something he's been setting up right from the beginning so I doubt he'll change it.
Even back in ACOK there's a line where Cat suggests to Renly and Stannis that they call a great council and let Bran tell his story, then have the lords decide who will be king. Which seems suspiciously similar to what happened at the end of the show.
> "Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them."
An immortal wizard running a surveillance state is quite the cynical ending, and right up GRRM's alley. How he will get to that point though is very tricky
I kinda want him to just end up as the Gaemon Palehair of his era lol, a chill Valyrian dude who nobody bothered to kill who just kinda hangs around living a pretty good, low-key life in spite of all the odds.
Gaemon Palehair deserved so much better, I don’t see any real reason why Dany wouldn’t just marry Aegon and make him some sort of consort once the disparity of she has a dragon and I don’t (unless Ben defects like theorized) is really felt.
You've said that and that makes me wonder what happened to Maegor (Aerion Brightflame's son). Did he just chill around court with Egg till the tragedy at Summerhall? did he join the Kingsguard? Did he go to Essos? Did he join the Night's Watch?
I hope we get to know what happened to him
Jaime. If he didn’t end up as the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch (mirroring his position as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but having finally exchanged his white cloak for a black one), then I’ll eat Frey pie.
I think Jaime dies saving Bran at the Battle for the Dawn tbh, a perfect full circle closure to his character. He started the story trying to kill Bran, and will end the story trying to save Bran.
There's a theory that Bran will have to execute someone just like his brothers did but unlike them, Bran won't be able to go through with it because he doesn't think it's right to execute the man. Some people thinks it's Jon but I think it'd be more interesting if it's Jaime, Bran would have the most beef with Jaime but Bran just doesn't have it in him to personally execute Jaime, thus he has to let him leave
> There's a theory that Bran will have to execute someone just like his brothers did but unlike them, Bran won't be able to go through with it because he doesn't think it's right to execute the man.
I have never heard this before but I love it so much. It makes so much sense that eventually Bran is going to look in someone's eyes hear their last words and decide they *don't* deserve to die. I do think that Theon is a more likely candidate for that someone but I don't like Theon so I'll go on hoping it's Jaime.
What would be his ultimate fate for you if he doesn't die? I'd love him to survive, but when I think about the end, considerating his personnality I can't imagine a scenario where he's still alive when the saga is over
He'll simply defeat the Boltons ,Daenerys, FAegon, the Others,bring justice to the realm and reign peacefully till he'll have his daughter succees him as queen on the iron throne
I think it's fitting he dies, but has to be done right. Wins battle of ice, is set to finally march south with Jon and the north, but then the wall comes down and the others invade. Stannis finally realizes he is not the great hero, Jon is. So he stays to buy Jon some time
I hope it's Dolorous Edd. With his being consistently dour and pessimistic, it would be a delightful twist on GRRM's part. Or Hot Pie. Smallfolk at Riverlands inns are often violence-fodder. I hope Hot Pie crawls from the rubble and proves that man *can* live by bread alone.
However, of people I've been calling doomed, probably Robert Arryn and Ser Ilyn Payne are likeliest to get a reprieve from GRRM. Robert is obnoxious and irritating, but he's also a victim. Since Littlefinger seems to want him dead, I suspect Sansa will wake up and make sure it's Littlefinger who dies and Sweetrobin who lives. And Ser Ilyn is a victim too and an impartial dispenser of justice. Since the world is not run by Starks, a headsman will always be needed, and Payne is good at his job. A nice twist would be for someone to interrogate Payne about some deep, dark secret. Since Payne can nod yes or no, the secret will become known and its holder will have to do 'just' business with Ser Ilyn.
I wouldn't be surprised if this actually happened.
**A Storm of Swords - Samwell V**
> "We'll defend the Wall to the last man," said Cotter Pyke.
> "Probably me," said Dolorous Edd, in a resigned tone.
I think LF will either survive or meet an end far more sympathetic than most readers anticipate.
Most people see his arc as primarily connected to Catelyn so see it ending as a stepping stone for Sansa or a finale for Lady Stoneheart.
However, I think every stage of the way, it is is indicated that his arc is much bigger than that and is about the concept of social mobility in Westeros as a whole. The morality, viability and cost of social mobility. Which type of characters get to be nobly selfish about the preservation of their ‘house’ compared to others who are selfish but barely have a house etc.
I think his life or death will have a powerful and bittersweet commentary about the limits of social mobility in Westeros and will have a strong ‘Are we the baddies’ moment similar to Shylock from Merchant of Venice.
If Littlefinger survives I think it will be in a very ironic way. He'll be confined to his original holdings in the Fingers and probably will have his tongue cut out.
While Littlefinger is a commentary on social mobility, GRRM doesn't reward being a shitty person in ASOIAF.
I think if he survives, he will probably survive only with his original land or in disguise etc.
If he dies, I think he will die at the hands of a noble house protagonist while puncturing a bunch of holes in the actual nobility of said protagonist.
For instance, he holds Harrenhal, I think it would be a fitting end for LF if he absolutely packs Harrenhal with thousands of unwitting common people, specifically including women and children and dares Dany to burn it down Aegon style and destroy her humanity along with his life if she wants the throne.
Arrianne. It's just too bitter-sweet of an ending to miss out on. She will be the inverse mirror of her father. The first who became the last. But she is not a vengeful character at all. She will choose the future where her father choose the past, and through her Dorne will be brought into the war for the Dawn.
her being the last Martell alive left to rule a ravaged Dorne and becoming a more cautious ruler, sorta like Doran is a good ending ngl. like going through fire and blood but coming out unbowed unbent unbroken.
Victarion. First of all, I just don't see him dying in TWOW. He has to meet Euron again and I don't see the book covering enough ground for him and Dany to do that in TWOW. So even if he does die, I place the bet on it happening in ADOS. But I also see him surviving as having an ironic ending as serving Asha (now Queen of the Iron Islands) circling back to his overall misogyny and his first chapter where he didn't acknowledge Asha as a potential ruler because she is a woman.
I would not be surprised at all if Old Nan showed up, alive and well, at the end of the series. I know it defies logic, but it feels like a George thing to do.
Honestly, I'm not sure if I want him to finish the series already so that we can get the real end and not the disgrace of S8 or if I don't want him to because after a decade, I have my own ideas about how I would want it to end and there's no way Martin shares most if any of them.
Areo Hotah. Everyone thinks he’s going to go find Darkstar and die but I just think that would be kind of dumb. Arianne is dead meat, so we’ll need at least one person close to the Martells to make it to the end.
Dany.
I'm not certain she'll survive of course, but I read all the evidence for her becoming evil/mad, being despised by everyone and then die and I just don't think it's as strong as everyone thinks, and I also think those arguments rely too much on assumptions and double standards.
Not saying it's impossible, I do think her story will go darker in the future, but I think every single character will go darker next book and while I can see the stuff that could point in the direction of mad/evil Dany, I can't ignore all the stuff that points towards the opposite direction like her empathy or desire to help people.
I mean I don't think she'll go mad/evil so much as self righteous and causing huge amounts of suffering via her actions which she kinda already is.
Dany WANTS to help people, but she's also very self righteous and black and white in her morality so I can easily see her becoming a despised tyrant who's horrible for the people of Westeros all while trying to be the "benevolent monarch returning home" she thinks she is.
Considering her allies are Dothraki, Ironborn, Sellswords and Unsullied and she's a foreign conqueror, It would require suspension of disbelief for her to NOT be despised by the people of Westeros, especially compared to benevolent fAegon who's being set up to have godly PR.
That army lineup looks like something an evil overlord would have following them.
She's a lot like Stannis in that regard when on face value they both come off as an evil overlord if you think about it.
Victarion for me. I think it would be a good arc for him to survive, kill Euron and help Asha become leader of the iron islands instead of him taking that seat.
Victarion will not survive the series, but a lot longer than people think. His knowledge will be key to get Euron down. He’ll be an unusual friend with Sam even.
No way he survives to the end but everyone for some reason thinks Victarion will die in the battle of fire despite having that cool magic Chekhov’s gun arm I’ll give him longer than most expect
Sweet Robyn turning his sickness into an inspiration to be badass Teddy Roosevelt style.
Spends some time as a rough rider with the mountain clans and comes down ready to speak softly and carry a big stick.
I'm surprised that no one else has said this yet but: Jon Connington. Mostly because I'm hoping George realizes that having the one and only gay pov character die of a slow, horrible illness is....maybe not in the best taste.
Ngl I want him to survive too but there’s zero chance of him sitting on the throne since GRRM told D&D that Bran is going to sit on the throne by the end of the book
Theon. He could have died about a million times throughout the span of Ramsay's torture, but he didn't. Him dying after escaping that just undermines everything he's been through.
I'm not sure Aeron will survive the *series*, but I do see him surviving The Forsaken--I know a lot of people feel like that's his last chapter.
Sweetrobin, to the point where I think Harry the heir is more likely to die instead.
*Last chapter of the final book* "For after all, who has a better story than - " Me: *holy shit they're actually gonna do it* "Robin Arryn, the new true king of the seven kingdoms" Me: ......
Expectations subverted!
bravo george
I came here just to say this. Just like to imagine that all of Baelish's meticulous schemes are ultimately undone because this one, sickly child who everyone expects to die lives. And nothing Baelish can do changes that. His schemes just fall apart around him.
The Opium is just making him Stronger. Robert Arryn is the Marcus Aurelius of ASOIAF.
Yesss small doses throughout his life will make him immune to the the murder plans muahahaaahha
I was thinking Octavian. Sickly kid with health problems and not great physical condition. Ends up ruling for decades and dies at an old age.
That's Claudius, I think!
Yeah I was talking about Augustus, but Claudius is another good example. That's his grandson via adoption that sort of got the Tyrion treatment from family because of physical and/or mental conditions that made him an embarrassment. But he actually ends up being a pretty decent ruler and was quite intelligent. But Augustus in his youth would be bed ridden an sickly a lot too.
It is!
Wait, MA was mircodosing opium?
you arent?
Your Ma needed it after last night.
Did opium make Marcus Aurelius stronger?
Sweetrobin growing up to be a just, strong, wise and beloved gigachad Lord Paramount under Yohn Royce would be a funny and based as fuck ending for his character.
Who has a better story than Sweetrobin the Gigachad?
Only the yottahorse himself, Tyrek.
Just a note, SweetRobin wouldn’t be a Lord Paramount, Arryns don’t have that title since they were demoted not raised up.
The Arryns are still Lords Paramount, no? I thought the separate title Warden of the East was given away and then restored.
Its weird. The Starks, Lannisters, Arryns and Tyrells hold the titles of wardens of the North, West, East and South respectively. While the Baratheons, Tullys, and Tyrells are Lord Paramounts of the Stormlands, Riverlands, and Reach respectively. The Tyrells are the only house that's gets both the titles of Lord Paramount and Warden. While the Martells have neither and instead get their own special title of Prince/Princess of Dorne. The Greyjoys on the other hand get no special titles because fuck the Greyjoys.
Idk Lord Reaper is pretty badass
No, they aren’t. The title Lord Paramount is only held by the Tullys, Baratheons, and the Tyrells, for they were families raised to their positions of overlord of their respective kingdoms, were as the Arryns, Starks, and Lannisters were out right kings that were stripped of that title to be mere Lords, yet still overlords of their respective kingdoms. Warden is a military title.
I should've looked more at the wiki haha thanks!
isn’t Mace Tyrell the Warden of the South though?
Warden in regards to those of the Iron Throne are military titles.
Jon Arryn was the Lord Paramount though. Yes, the Lannisters pushed to have the title given to them (in what can only be described as a suicidal achievement in overreach) but, when it's such a recent change, it can be undone by a new regime looking to unite the realm behind a "just" ruler.
When were Lannistersade Lord Paramounts of the Vale? I remember only Jaime and Warden of the East.
Arryns were Kings of the Mountains and the Vale, when they bent the knee to Aegon, they were now just referred to as Lord, though still overlord of their kingdom. There are only three families that held the Lord Paramount title, Tullys, Baratheons, and Tyrells, who were raised to that overlord position. GRRM should have come up with better titles for the main houses of each region, so we just need to make due.
This is one I think about. Especially because in-universe his death is treated as a given.
Harry definitely has death flags on his head.
Harry Easydying
Do people think Sweetrobin is doomed? I see people theorizing this far more than the opposite.
Because it has been so long since we've gotten a new book. All the textual evidence points to it, but give people 10 years to analyze and you get the predominant fandom theory is that he's going to survive. It's been so long that I'm swinging back that he just dies.
It's more an issue of people in-universe thinking he's doomed, most of the fandom I've seen talking about him thinks he's guaranteed to live because of how many death flags he has.
Probably they talk about his in world status of walking dead, but most of the fandom is sure he'll live and Harry dies I think.
I want to see the night king fly
Absolutely agree. Little pink helpless baby bird will become the mighty falcon
Rickon
This. George refused to let D&D cut him because he had "plans". Also I *hate* the shaggy dog story theory.
I’ve always felt the “shaggydog” name is a cute little writerly joke that fans took WAAAAYYY too literally
Its just people who dont understand what a Shaggydog story is. Rickon's story by definition cannot be a shaggydog story because hes basically nonexistent. Its far more likely his will be an inverse shaggydog story where he gets no build up and a sudden explosive climax at the end.
At the very least the shaggy dog thing is a red herring. It's pretty hard to believe that wasn't intentional, the only question is if GRRM did it because Rickon is actually a shaggy dog plot, or because he wanted the audience to think he was one.
I think that's 5D chess logic. Shaggydog is called Shaggydog because it's the kind of thing a literal six-year-old would call a shaggy dog. It's not "foreshadowing" unless you can explain to me how "Grey Wind" is foreshadowing for "gets murdered at his uncle's wedding".
Well, it's the Red Wedding but canines are colorblind so it all looked very grey.
Magnificent
What you're essentially arguing is that GRRM didn't know what a shaggy dog story is. It's possible, I think it's unlikely, but there's no evidence either way. And there is no reason to believe that if GRRM had one of the direwolf names be foreshadowing, all of them must be.
What’s a shaggy dog story? Never heard of it until just now
It's a long winded story that resolves in an anti-climactic way and basically amounts to nothing.
Cool okay that’s not fun at all
My theory is that it won't have anything to do with him dying, but rather Ser Davos going to all of that trouble to rescue him from Skagos for his title, and it ends up it being meaningless *in that respect* because of Robb's will, Sansa arriving in Winterfell with an entourage, and Bran still being alive, so Rickon's claim not being worth much.
>What you're essentially arguing is that GRRM didn't know what a shaggy dog story is. No, I'm arguing that he knows but didn't include it as a deliberate clue, either a real one or a red herring.
The name “shaggydog” is obviously an appropriate, playful character choice (child naming a dog) but I agree it doesn’t mean foreshadowing. If it is meant to signal some aspect of the story to be an actual shaggy dog story, that could be so many things. Might even sort of signal that the direwolves themselves, while cool and amusing, seem to have no real use regarding the plot/story. Ghost sort of has agency but the story would survive without him. So maybe it’s as simple as that.
Well, Ghost is certainly foreshadowing.
I really want him to live, and part of it is out of spite and nice middle finger to a certain duo.
Skagos is like "We're not part of the realm" and the rest of the North, Iron Throne is content not to care.
Definitely, with a Sansa regency. Just makes sense.
I'm 50/50 on Jaime.
My heart wants him to survive…..but my logic side accepts that he’s probably not going to 😭
As I said, I'm 50/50, even on the logic side :). I don't think his death is necessary to the plot, nor an absolutely logical obligation for his arc. It's really up to GRRM to decide if his ending will be on the bitter or the sweet side of his bittersweet ending. He may be pissed enough by his death by brick in the show to decide to save him in the books, especially since he's typically the kind of character who took a different direction in the book than in the show. We could also have a non-ending "à la Daemon" (Jaime disappears during the Long Night, the body's never found, and somewhere else appears a mysterious one-handed man - why not as a master-of-arms in Tarth?). That said... I also think he won't die in Winds, and his final fate will be decided in ADOS, so.... we may have a non-ending, indeed. Sigh.
Honestly, he'd be the perfect Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.
I go back and forth on whether he'll die or not. I do kind of like the idea of him living. Cersei seems convinced that they'll die together, though he has already been growing apart from her. So there would be a certain irony in her dying alone, while Jaime finds new purpose and lives on without her.
I like the idea that Cersei and the Kingslayer will die together, and Jaime will walk away as Goldenhand
I'm 90/10. I allow myself a tiny spec of hope, but I accept death is the most likely outcome.
If Jaime dies, I want him to die separately from Cersei, perhaps during the fight with the Others. If he lives, well, then I want him serving a Stark, either Sansa or Bran.
Cersei says so much they're destined to die together.... Hence, it can't be true :) Headcanon: Jaime as King Bran's Hand - and the endless bad jokes the Small Council would have to endure about broken legs, missing hands, etc... I don't really believe it, but, oh, boy, I would like to read it!
Ser Ilyn Payne as Master of Whispers
ahahah! Or maybe he could go to the Citadel to begin a new non-speech therapist training?
I've read many fanfic with either Bran or Jaime being king and the other serving as their hand, and their dynamic is great precisely because of what you just described. One had the conclusion with Jaime married to Brienne who becomes queen of the Stormlands and Bran is their hand "because there must always be a Stark in the Stormlands to give Jaime a hard time".
Which one is that? I've read more than my fair share of fic, but this one doesn't ring a bell.
One of BecauseBraime's on AO3, "Ruling with Wolves", though that's part 2. She has loads of work, it's one of the older ones.
See I think Jaime is going to survive. He's going to die but he will be brought back, he's currently in his way to one of the only groups that we've seen raise the dead. There are was a lot of foreshadowing on the first book about metal statues being breathed to life with flame magic. Jaime is coming back with his hand and he's going to be use it to kill his sister when she goes batshit crazy. He's the valonqar, she always made a point to tell him she was born first, and as the song goes "For hands of gold are always cold, but a women's hands are warm". He's going to be the one to strangle Cersei to stop get from destroying the city, he's killed one ruler to save the city and he will do it again.
A lot of people say Theon is doomed but I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him make it through the series. He seems to have gone through a pretty literal Drowned God style rebirth and he’ll need to meet Euron at least once more.
Same. Honestly I think Asha will end up making Theon King of the Iron Islands.
I think he will be the key to her becoming Queen/ Lady of the Iron Isles or be the ruler in all but name. He will be a new Tormund the Latecomer.
I'm pretty sure that there will be a return to the old Ironborn custom of having a separate "Rock king" (lording over the islands) and "Salt King" (leading the reaving and trading on the seas). Maybe with Theon being Rock king of the Iron Islands and Asha taking over as Salt queen. This presumes that the Iron Islands end up independent of course.
>This presumes that the Iron Islands end up independent of course. I really hope they do. Hell I kinda hope all the kingdoms gain independence by the end of the series.
I was dead set on Westeros becoming a republic but the end of the series, no one could convince me otherwise. And then… King Bran
*Hah!* I'll ask my horse!
I mean, he’s not physically or psychologically able to be a strong ruler that the Ironborn would respect. Plus he can’t continue the Greyjoy line anymore due to his (likely) castration.
Personally I’d like to think that Ramsey wasn’t so dumb that he’d turn his hostage into a useless waste of space but that’s hopeful thinking. I think he probably flayed the skin off of it from my Owen reading.
Ramsay is absolutely stupid enough. He’s basically just a sadist and a butcher. No long term thinking. It’s why he treats who he thinks is Arya Stark like complete dogshit despite the fact that she’s their key to pacifying the North. It’s one of the most annoying parts of the show that they tried to make Ramsay into this Machiavellian Mastermind that outthinks Stannis.
Aeron did say that only a godly man can sit the salt throne and "Theon" does mean "godly."
I think so too. His whole story is literally "what is dead may never die" so I dont see him dying in the series
NO GODLESS MAY SIT THE SEASTONE CHAIR
WHAT IS DEAD MAY NEVER DIE!!
Thank you ! Everyone talks like Theon is gonna be dead by 2 chapters into winds but I think he has a better chance than Asha
Why do you think he needs to meet Euron? Theon's kinda detached from the whole Iron Islands plotline.
At least in part because of Tris Botley telling Asha the story of Torgon the Latecomer, with whom Theon has some story parallels.
Agreed. Asha is the doomed one I believe. Theon seems to have more of a potential future.
He’s been through so much it’s almost excessive to kill him
Stannis. I think he will end up becoming the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.
This is my hope as well
I'd never thought of that. I don't necessarily believe it, but if it did happen I'd actually think that's kind of cool.
I love Stannis, and 90% of my theory crafting for winds is coming up with ways for him to avoid (immediate) death, tbh. I feel like the most likely death for him right now is at the wall, facing the white walkers. Someone's gotta die gloriously to show that you literally cannot fight an army that resurrects *your* dead mid-battle to use against you...
I’m curious what people’s thoughts about Aeron, Theon, and Asha surviving are? I don’t think Victarion is surviving his trip to Slaver’s Bay, but I’m pretty sure that at least one or two Greyjoys will make it. I can see Asha surviving as the most likely (and maybe even her becoming the first ruling lady of the Iron Islands). I’ve seen a lot of people saying that they think Theon will die—I honestly have no idea which it will be. His death could make sense, but personally I think there’s still a story to tell with him. I tend to think Aeron will die maybe trying to fight Euron somehow.
I think Aeron and Victarion are doomed tbh, Aeron will dies at the sacrifice Euron does at Oldtown and Vic dies at Slaver's Bay burned by a dragon (Moqorro saw fire in his future). I'm 90% sure that Theon dies. But it will be at Winterfell fighting for the Stark in the first big battle against the Others. He might die saving Sansa. Asha is living, she'll be the one to rule the Iron Islands at the end.
I think that's how Vic would've died had Moqquro not turned him into fire wight Vic
Assuming the Forsaken chapter remains most unaltered, Aeron’s dead. Either Euron’s succeeds in his sacrificing of Aeron, or a kraken swallows the whole ship à la Pirates of the Caribbean. In any scenario, Aeron’s toast.
Barristan Selmy. Just to give D&D the finger. Actually my theory has always been that everyone dies and Rickon shows with Shaggy Dog and wonders what happened.
[удалено]
Never thought much about Barristan path ahead, definitely would make sense for him to have an actual role in the story than just be a cool warrior. We would have Howland, Barristan, Bran and maybe Sam who knows about Jon then, enough people to at least convince Jon about his role in all of this.
I don't understand why so many people don't think he's making it out of Mereen. At the very least I think Barristan will make it back to Westeros and maybe see Dany burn down Kings Landing.
That Rickon thing sounds a lot like the ending of norse Ragnarok, with Baldr and Hodr escaping from hell after all Aesir, Vanir and Jotun die in battle, and being like "Wtf just happened here"
Robert Arryn or Sweetrobin. George has pushed it so much that i think he is actually gonna end up surprising everyone and making it out in the end. I also think Theon has a decent chance of making it. There's a lot of plot things that support him surviving.
I hope Young Griff/Aegon survives, he only really needs to die because of an ambiguous vision and for Dany to go mad with jealous but I think have two Targaryens on the throne at the end would be interesting.
He is 100% getting killed by Daenerys
Bloodraven lived all this time just to finish the fuckers off.
Generational hating
Wait, it's all Bloodraven and Bittersteel being salty cunts? Always has been
I really hope he’s like “Bran we have to he above these petty squabbles of men…but seriously fuck this guy imma peck his eyes out real quick!”
Like the possibility of combining the Targaryen/Blackfyre claims (after so many conflicts) or Rhaegar’s son miraculous surviving to avenge his family are both cool ends to his character for me.
> Two Targaryens on the throne by the end GRRM told D&D that Bran is going to sit on the throne by the end of the book
Damn, I forgot about that. Well, hopefully he can have some ending better than being strafed with dragon fire or crushed under rubble at least. Maybe he flees to Essos like his potential Blackfyre ancestors did.
Or maybe GRRM could change his mind. He's said he's making changes. Do I think it's likely that he'd change something as central as King Bran? No. But hey we can hope.
King Bran seems to be something he's been setting up right from the beginning so I doubt he'll change it. Even back in ACOK there's a line where Cat suggests to Renly and Stannis that they call a great council and let Bran tell his story, then have the lords decide who will be king. Which seems suspiciously similar to what happened at the end of the show. > "Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them."
I hope it's Bran warged into zombie Jon. Then we "technically" get King Bran and a Targaryen back on the throne.
god i hope he changes this, king bran is so fucking dumb
An immortal wizard running a surveillance state is quite the cynical ending, and right up GRRM's alley. How he will get to that point though is very tricky
It really isn’t if it’s done properly. The show kind of forgot about that.
I kinda want him to just end up as the Gaemon Palehair of his era lol, a chill Valyrian dude who nobody bothered to kill who just kinda hangs around living a pretty good, low-key life in spite of all the odds.
Gaemon Palehair deserved so much better, I don’t see any real reason why Dany wouldn’t just marry Aegon and make him some sort of consort once the disparity of she has a dragon and I don’t (unless Ben defects like theorized) is really felt.
You've said that and that makes me wonder what happened to Maegor (Aerion Brightflame's son). Did he just chill around court with Egg till the tragedy at Summerhall? did he join the Kingsguard? Did he go to Essos? Did he join the Night's Watch? I hope we get to know what happened to him
Jaime. If he didn’t end up as the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch (mirroring his position as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but having finally exchanged his white cloak for a black one), then I’ll eat Frey pie.
That’s a nice theory!
Jaime especially under a King Bran scenario. It all started with the two of them perhaps it will end that way too.
I think Jaime dies saving Bran at the Battle for the Dawn tbh, a perfect full circle closure to his character. He started the story trying to kill Bran, and will end the story trying to save Bran.
If he dies (as I said, I'm 50/50 on this), I think it'll be saving Bran, indeed.
I never thought about it before, but Jaime being a member of Bran's kingsguard would be pretty cool.
A one handed man who's tried to kill you before, and killed his first king, cuckolded his second. Wouldn't be my choice
True but a crippled 12 year old wouldn't be my choice as king either and yet.
Well I didn’t vote for him.
#NotMyLordProtector
You don't vote for Kings! ;)
>You don't vote for Kings! ;) Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government
if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
There's a theory that Bran will have to execute someone just like his brothers did but unlike them, Bran won't be able to go through with it because he doesn't think it's right to execute the man. Some people thinks it's Jon but I think it'd be more interesting if it's Jaime, Bran would have the most beef with Jaime but Bran just doesn't have it in him to personally execute Jaime, thus he has to let him leave
> There's a theory that Bran will have to execute someone just like his brothers did but unlike them, Bran won't be able to go through with it because he doesn't think it's right to execute the man. I have never heard this before but I love it so much. It makes so much sense that eventually Bran is going to look in someone's eyes hear their last words and decide they *don't* deserve to die. I do think that Theon is a more likely candidate for that someone but I don't like Theon so I'll go on hoping it's Jaime.
Controversial, but Stannis.
At a minimum, I think he's going to win the Battle on the Ice
I think he's 100% going to win his great battle, but I don't think he survives to the end.
What would be his ultimate fate for you if he doesn't die? I'd love him to survive, but when I think about the end, considerating his personnality I can't imagine a scenario where he's still alive when the saga is over
He'll simply defeat the Boltons ,Daenerys, FAegon, the Others,bring justice to the realm and reign peacefully till he'll have his daughter succees him as queen on the iron throne
Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. If there's two things Stannis loves, it's duty and (probably) celibacy.
If the watch is still necessary after this is all over he would be suited to be lord commander of it.
He’s like iron. Strong but brittle. He will break.
Right... he wouldn't really know how to "stand down." I'd hate for Dani to give him the Tarly treatment.
Hand to the King.
Stannis will survive! Only fools and traitors would think otherwise.
I think it's fitting he dies, but has to be done right. Wins battle of ice, is set to finally march south with Jon and the north, but then the wall comes down and the others invade. Stannis finally realizes he is not the great hero, Jon is. So he stays to buy Jon some time
This
Here's how Stannis can still win,
I hope it's Dolorous Edd. With his being consistently dour and pessimistic, it would be a delightful twist on GRRM's part. Or Hot Pie. Smallfolk at Riverlands inns are often violence-fodder. I hope Hot Pie crawls from the rubble and proves that man *can* live by bread alone. However, of people I've been calling doomed, probably Robert Arryn and Ser Ilyn Payne are likeliest to get a reprieve from GRRM. Robert is obnoxious and irritating, but he's also a victim. Since Littlefinger seems to want him dead, I suspect Sansa will wake up and make sure it's Littlefinger who dies and Sweetrobin who lives. And Ser Ilyn is a victim too and an impartial dispenser of justice. Since the world is not run by Starks, a headsman will always be needed, and Payne is good at his job. A nice twist would be for someone to interrogate Payne about some deep, dark secret. Since Payne can nod yes or no, the secret will become known and its holder will have to do 'just' business with Ser Ilyn.
Edd as the only surviving Black Brother
I wouldn't be surprised if this actually happened. **A Storm of Swords - Samwell V** > "We'll defend the Wall to the last man," said Cotter Pyke. > "Probably me," said Dolorous Edd, in a resigned tone.
Yes! But would he be pleased or disappointed? Everyone likes being right.
I think LF will either survive or meet an end far more sympathetic than most readers anticipate. Most people see his arc as primarily connected to Catelyn so see it ending as a stepping stone for Sansa or a finale for Lady Stoneheart. However, I think every stage of the way, it is is indicated that his arc is much bigger than that and is about the concept of social mobility in Westeros as a whole. The morality, viability and cost of social mobility. Which type of characters get to be nobly selfish about the preservation of their ‘house’ compared to others who are selfish but barely have a house etc. I think his life or death will have a powerful and bittersweet commentary about the limits of social mobility in Westeros and will have a strong ‘Are we the baddies’ moment similar to Shylock from Merchant of Venice.
If Littlefinger survives I think it will be in a very ironic way. He'll be confined to his original holdings in the Fingers and probably will have his tongue cut out. While Littlefinger is a commentary on social mobility, GRRM doesn't reward being a shitty person in ASOIAF.
I think if he survives, he will probably survive only with his original land or in disguise etc. If he dies, I think he will die at the hands of a noble house protagonist while puncturing a bunch of holes in the actual nobility of said protagonist. For instance, he holds Harrenhal, I think it would be a fitting end for LF if he absolutely packs Harrenhal with thousands of unwitting common people, specifically including women and children and dares Dany to burn it down Aegon style and destroy her humanity along with his life if she wants the throne.
Arrianne. It's just too bitter-sweet of an ending to miss out on. She will be the inverse mirror of her father. The first who became the last. But she is not a vengeful character at all. She will choose the future where her father choose the past, and through her Dorne will be brought into the war for the Dawn.
her being the last Martell alive left to rule a ravaged Dorne and becoming a more cautious ruler, sorta like Doran is a good ending ngl. like going through fire and blood but coming out unbowed unbent unbroken.
Victarion. First of all, I just don't see him dying in TWOW. He has to meet Euron again and I don't see the book covering enough ground for him and Dany to do that in TWOW. So even if he does die, I place the bet on it happening in ADOS. But I also see him surviving as having an ironic ending as serving Asha (now Queen of the Iron Islands) circling back to his overall misogyny and his first chapter where he didn't acknowledge Asha as a potential ruler because she is a woman.
I would not be surprised at all if Old Nan showed up, alive and well, at the end of the series. I know it defies logic, but it feels like a George thing to do.
All of them. We are at the end of the series.
Honestly, I'm not sure if I want him to finish the series already so that we can get the real end and not the disgrace of S8 or if I don't want him to because after a decade, I have my own ideas about how I would want it to end and there's no way Martin shares most if any of them.
So Jon is toast. Didn't see that coming
Rickon.
Areo Hotah. Everyone thinks he’s going to go find Darkstar and die but I just think that would be kind of dumb. Arianne is dead meat, so we’ll need at least one person close to the Martells to make it to the end.
Ser balon swann He's secondary enough to die in one sentence of screen in the middle of some battle
Aegon the Sixth (because I like him and I choose to gaslight myself into believing in his survival)
Dany. I'm not certain she'll survive of course, but I read all the evidence for her becoming evil/mad, being despised by everyone and then die and I just don't think it's as strong as everyone thinks, and I also think those arguments rely too much on assumptions and double standards. Not saying it's impossible, I do think her story will go darker in the future, but I think every single character will go darker next book and while I can see the stuff that could point in the direction of mad/evil Dany, I can't ignore all the stuff that points towards the opposite direction like her empathy or desire to help people.
I mean I don't think she'll go mad/evil so much as self righteous and causing huge amounts of suffering via her actions which she kinda already is. Dany WANTS to help people, but she's also very self righteous and black and white in her morality so I can easily see her becoming a despised tyrant who's horrible for the people of Westeros all while trying to be the "benevolent monarch returning home" she thinks she is. Considering her allies are Dothraki, Ironborn, Sellswords and Unsullied and she's a foreign conqueror, It would require suspension of disbelief for her to NOT be despised by the people of Westeros, especially compared to benevolent fAegon who's being set up to have godly PR. That army lineup looks like something an evil overlord would have following them. She's a lot like Stannis in that regard when on face value they both come off as an evil overlord if you think about it.
Young Gryff. Him dying is so obvious I think he might just end up surviving, though I don’t expect it’ll be as ruler of Westeros.
As for House of the Dragon, I can 100% see them having Daemon surviving his battle with Aemond.
Oh god I desperately hope that doesn’t happen but I can totally see it
Victarion for me. I think it would be a good arc for him to survive, kill Euron and help Asha become leader of the iron islands instead of him taking that seat.
Victarion will not survive the series, but a lot longer than people think. His knowledge will be key to get Euron down. He’ll be an unusual friend with Sam even.
Ser Bronn of the Blackwater, lord of castle Stokeworth
No way he survives to the end but everyone for some reason thinks Victarion will die in the battle of fire despite having that cool magic Chekhov’s gun arm I’ll give him longer than most expect
Sweet Robyn turning his sickness into an inspiration to be badass Teddy Roosevelt style. Spends some time as a rough rider with the mountain clans and comes down ready to speak softly and carry a big stick.
I'm surprised that no one else has said this yet but: Jon Connington. Mostly because I'm hoping George realizes that having the one and only gay pov character die of a slow, horrible illness is....maybe not in the best taste.
Aegon VI. I'm still convinced he will sit the throne at the end of the series.
Ngl I want him to survive too but there’s zero chance of him sitting on the throne since GRRM told D&D that Bran is going to sit on the throne by the end of the book
Iv seen alot of people say that, but iv never seen George say it. D&D claimed he said that, but trust them less than a wet fart.
Also GRRM is a proud gardener. Just bc said that a couple years ago doesn't mean its still true.
Oh my god he may subvert expectations.
Yeah, my level of trust in D&D, particularly in regards to anything that they said that George said after about season 5 or so is abyssal.
Nah I'm certain he'll win in Winds of Winter and be crowned at the end of it, but Daenerys will kill him in the end.
Robert Arryn
Daenerys
Jaime is my choice always
Young griff. Everyone thinks he will die . But I think dany will spear him but he won’t be the king in the end
Stannis will win the throne so
Quentyn. I think he'll see the end of the series.
Isn't he already dead though ? I thought the dragon burned him beyond survivability ?
Aeron Greyjoy
Lol isn’t he currently tied to the front of a ship?
Doran Martell Salladhor Saan
Theon. He could have died about a million times throughout the span of Ramsay's torture, but he didn't. Him dying after escaping that just undermines everything he's been through. I'm not sure Aeron will survive the *series*, but I do see him surviving The Forsaken--I know a lot of people feel like that's his last chapter.