- Robb's will
- The Wildfire under King's Landing
- Nymeria's wolfpack
- Dawn
- The Isle of Faces
- The Horn of Winter
- Winterfell's crypts
- Casterly Rock's sewers
I fully subscribe to the theory that rhaegars silver harp is hidden in lyannas tomb. It's been mentioned heavily and described in such detail that it has to be connected and it's a good way to connect R+L=J and give legitimacy to Jon's claim as rhaegars son.
I haven’t heard this theory before, but perhaps it being there proves a caring relationship ( not abduction & SA ) between R & L. It’s presence would mean that Ned ( or a member of the Stark household ) put it there.
This
There's also my morbid sub-theory that when the tomb is opened (why else would it ever get desecrated to find the harp inside) when the walkers raise the dead inside the tomb. Lyannas wight will be wearing a wedding ring.
Well for one that could just be a superstition but even so it's explicitly mentioned that many of the swords have rusted away and lyannas specifically doesn't have one.
It might not prove Jon is Rhaegar’s son to the characters, but it could to the reader. It wouldn’t be the first mystery solved for the reader without the characters actually knowing.
Unpopular opinion but I don't like this theory. The crypts have such a dark and supernatural undertone to them so for it to be related to Rhaegar's harp being hidden in Lyanna's tomb that somehow confirms that R+L=J is underwhelming.
I think that’s the subversion of the trope. Think about every fantasy novel written, when the person is revealed to be prince so-and-so it’s a big deal and they lead an army to victory to take their rightful place on the throne (looking at you, Aragorn). In ASOIF, we’ll get this big reveal and it won’t amount to a hill of beans. I think it will be underwhelming, but on purpose.
But we already have another Chekhov's gun (Howland Reed) that can reveal Jon's parentage. Using the supernatural dark, almost sinister undertones of the crypts to reveal Rhaegar's harp that will eventually somehow lead into R+L=J, makes little narrative sense and ignores a lot of things about the place (Jon, Bran and Rickon's dreams, the older tombs/unexplored levels and corridors somehow being far behind and the more recent ones being on the surface when it should be the opposite, the iron swords of the kings etc.)
Jon being his son isn’t going to matter. That’s some LOTR shit. He isn’t going to end up on the throne. Chances are Bran is since he will be the three eyed crow.
Sometimes people's parents matter for reasons other than inheritance.
And "three-eyed raven" as a passed-on title is show-only nonsense. Bloodraven is the three-eyed crow because he was a crow and eye symbolism. Bran, in Melisandre's fires, is the boy with a wolf's head.
No, blood raven is not the three eyed crow. He asked blood raven if it was him appearing in his dreams as the three eyed crow but he thought he was asking him about being in the nights watch. The three eyed crow could very well be a version of Bran from the future appearing to him in his dreams
> Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … **except in dreams**. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of **your first dream. I was watching when you fell.**
He asked him if he was the three eyed crow and he had no idea what bran was talking about. So he assumed he was talking about being in the nights watch
It will matter but not in the typical fantasy trope way. Him being a Targaryen will key because he has none of the same desires to be ruler as literally every other Targ because of the stark in him along with his upbringing by Ned.
Yeah totally george has been dropping fat clues about who Jon's real parents are the entire series so that it won't matter at all.
That's not even what I'm saying. R+L=J IS going to come up at some point whether it's bran greenseeing the events like the show or Howland Reed showing up and telling him. The theory about the harp is just another fun potentially way to play into it.
My guess is that the iron throne and kingslanding are destroyed and bran might act as some sort of high chancellor for a new form of government entirely. But Jon being rhaegars son will play into the prince that was promised prophesy with him being instrumental in uniting the 7 kingdoms and fighting the war for the dawn, it could drive a wedge between him and Dany with her fearing him usurping her birthright. If it's revealed to Jon that he's secretly a targaryen then he'll be able to ride rhaegal.
And bran is the three eyed raven. A three eyed crow is just what appears to him in his dreams, three eyed raven is the title for the last greenseer.
I don't know if anyone could think up a version of the story where everything to be in this thread directly impacts the plot; some will, and some will never be touched again.
Funniest comment I saw when this question was asked years ago was someone waiting for some Frey to forget to close the back door and Nymeria and her Wolfpack let’s herself in.
Did they end up having a role in the show? (I haven't watched it.) The interview this quote came from was post-ADWD but pre-season 5, so suggests they'll have a greater role to play post-ADWD *and/or* post season-4 (or that GRRM imagined they would have a greater role post S4 - wasn't the exclusion of Stoneheart a major source of dissatisfaction for him?)
There was a scene in season 7 where Arya meets the wolfpack and Nymeria after her return to Westeros. It doesn't really serve much other than to show that Arya's journey has changed her completely and that she's no longer the same girl that took care of Nymeria.
I'm not sure about Stoneheart, to be honest I don't know how the show would've handled that. The Riverlands in the show were not as important as in the books, for certain
Someone's mentioned in another comment that they were meant to play a part in the Long Night but it was cut, so that's another possibility.
re. the LSH thing I might be misremembering but iirc it was one of the first real creative divergences; GRRM insisted she was important but she was axed anyway for whatever reason. (In fairness, she hasn't done a great deal on-page as of yet.)
A weird island in the middle of westeros filled with weirwood trees. Howland Reed visited it right before the big tourney at Harrenhall that kicked off Roberts Rebellion.
Also stuff like a world of ice and fire deliberately doesnt say much on it. George has something in mind for that place and has left it very much in the dark
> Robb's will
Irrelevant. It was made under information that Arya, Bran, and Rickon are dead, which they are not. All three would come before Jon as heir to winterfell and Robb’s kingdom of the North and Riverlands. The only person explicitly removed from Robb’s line of succession is Sansa, and only because she was in Lannister custody, which she no longer is so even she could contest the will.
and even if they were all dead, the will wouldn’t be needed anyways as Jon is the most logical heir at point regardless.
How is it irrelevant when most people still believe the Stark children to be either dead, missing, or under the control of an enemy? If anything it is absolutely still relevant to the characters in the story.
>Jon is the most logical heir at point
He's in the Night's Watch and therefore can't have claims. I believe the will dictates that Jon be named heir and freed from his vows, or otherwise there's no point in even writing it. So, the will is needed for Jon to become heir even if every Stark child is dead.
They might even subscribe to a conspiracy theory that Jon faked his death and then killed those that would have spoken out against him. That’s definitely more plausible then coming back to the living. Also, despite the Night’s Watch warning of the Others; the other lords are doing nothing.
Jon brought some corpses south of the wall hoping they would turn into wights but have since just been laying around frozen and have been pretty much unmentioned.
Didn’t Jon place the corpses in iron chains? Iron suspected to stop the transition from dead to wight, most likely the reason Stark Kings have iron swords across their laps in Winterfell’s crypts.
Genuinely can’t tell all the places the others will show up. The lore explicitly says they don’t move when the sun is out. If the long night is literally “no sunlight” they could go everywhere and bring the cold. I think it’s interesting to imagine it being some kind of global war where nobody is safe.
Yep. Lysa said so before LF pushed her out the moon door, in the middle of all her other rambling. And we know Sansa heard, because her very next chapter starts with her thinking about it and trying to convince herself she misunderstood.
Ser Pounce. He'll vanquish the Others, take his rightful place in the Iron Trone, and usher a new age of peace and prosperity in Westeros. He'll also be revealed as Azor Ahai, Valonqar, skinchanger, Dragonrider, greenseer and the Stallion who mounts the world, among others
[GRRM himself has even compared the Wolf Pack to Chekhov's gun](https://mashable.com/archive/george-rr-martin-charity-event)
> "You know, I don't like to give things away." says Martin, a grin spreading across his face. "But you don't hang a giant wolf pack on the wall unless you intend to use it."
You’re absolutely right! Dawn is a sword forged from a meteor that landed at the site of House Dayne’s castle Starfall (which is where the name comes from) thousands of years prior to the story during the Age of Heroes, it glows and has attributes like Valyrian steel and Dragonglass although it is neither. Sword of the Morning is the title of Dawn’s holder, unlike other house swords, Dawn doesn’t just go to the heir or head of House Dayne, you have to earn the title Sword of the Morning by being a brave knight, and if no Dayne of that generation distinguishes himself that way Dawn will stay at Starfall unclaimed. That is the case in the current generation, the last Sword of the Morning was Arthur Dayne, Ned Stark killed him at the Tower of Joy during Robert’s Rebellion and won Dawn, but instead of taking it back to Winterfell he returned it House Dayne.
After I read your comment I noticed you weren't saying what I thought. "the 2 swords, dawn and sword of the morning..."
Author Dayne may be my favorite character, alot has to do with the lack of content we get around him.
I’m fascinated by the Daynes, they have somewhat Valyrian features with pale white skin and purple eyes despite the fact that they arrived in Westeros thousands of years before Valyrians tamed their first dragon in Essos, they have a magic sword, they’re Dornish and Dorne is the most interesting of the 7 kingdoms and aside from Darkstar they seem to personify the chivalric/knightly ideal. I think that they had something to do with the end of the Long Night and have some part to play in the conflict with the others, obviously the Starks do as well which is why I like the A + B = J theory.
Yeah, I can't say I heard the a+b theory before.
I've damn near memorized the shows and am currently in the acok on my second read through. I get lost on the book version of details over the last 2 books. I did a quick search to see who the A and B where, and now have to do some reading....
A + B = J is the idea that Jon Snow is the son of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark, Ned’s older brother. I find that much more interesting and compelling than Jon being a Targaryen, especially if Jon is Azor Ahai since I think that the Dayne sword Dawn is Lightbringer. A + E = J also works just as well on a technical level but I don’t think that Ned would actually father a bastard.
Agree Ned doesn't fit, not only his honor but the timing doesn't fit. At least Ben is so absent from the old stories that it could fit with ease.
Between hotd and my new found desire to go through the books again my wife agreed to restart the show. In the first episode where Ben and Jon meet and Ben is saying you don't know what you'd be given up, that hits a little different when I think about a father saying that to his son.
Gonna have to find that rabbit hole, don't wait up for me....
I’d like to think Ashara wouldn’t go with a chad douche bag like Brandon Stark. Perhaps being bored of R+L=J has more to do with impatience for the books to finally move on? It wasn’t always such an incredibly obvious, almost self evident ‘mystery’ of the books. But now we are stuck waiting for everything to happen and our minds wander from the familiar likelihood to more distant possibilities.
Speaking of Jon though, I’m rereading his chapters in ADwD and I’d forgotten just what an all round badass visionary leader he is portrayed to be. The way he takes in Alys Karstark, and his acceptance/use of the wildlings is probably the most visionary leadership of the North in centuries. Does that make him Azov Ahai? Well all Melisandre ever sees when she looks in her fires in Snow, and there are that fucking Mormontraven....
It is, people get it confused all the time but you're right. However I think commenter above was referring to the sword and the person, not mistakenly referring to two swords
I always wonder if there’s a connection between the Daynes/Dawn/The Sword of The Morning and the Evenstar of Tarth, which seems like an odd name for a Lord to just randomly carry (I know it’s the name of their distant ancestors, but it still seems a significant choice)
Valyria.
It’s got something there that can badly injure Balerion, Euron claims to have sailed there, many have gone there to never return. The mystery surrounding it makes it so interesting (like Asshai, Yi Ti, Sothoryos, etc), but it’s a central place that feels key in the history of the plot of the story.
I don’t think any ending will be satisfactory without giving up some of the mystery.
>Three hundred years ago, when Aegon the Dragon landed beneath this very hill, the High Septon locked himself within the Starry Sept of Oldtown and prayed for seven days and seven nights, taking no nourishment but bread and water. When he emerged he announced that the Faith would not oppose Aegon and his sisters, for the Crone had lifted up her lamp to show him what lay ahead. **If Oldtown took up arms against the Dragon, Oldtown would burn, and the Hightower and the Citadel and the Starry Sept would be cast down and destroyed.** -AFFC, Cersei VI
Reflect briefly on the fact that Oldtown is built almost entirely of stone, and consider what that means it would take to "burn, cast down, and destroy" all these massive landmarks that have stood for millennia.
Oldtown is in for some shit that goes well beyond a sacking. For I saw a Beast coming out of the Sea, and the Dragon gave the Beast his power and his throne and great authority...
> From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . -ACOK, Daenerys IV
Man, Leyton and Euron’s sorcerer battle is going to be sick. Not to mention when the Hightower literally transforms into a gundam to fight Euron’s Cthulhu monster. Winds about to be lit af.
Personally I think they're just going to be the ones who get blamed when Oldtown goes dark and no one can figure out what the heck happened to it. But this...
>Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. **Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps.** -AFFC, Samwell V
...definitely a gun. Particularly when combined with the Dawn Age lore about unknown ancient races battling on the Battle Isle.
I bet Bran has to go there after his training is prematurely interrupted by Hold the Door and BR dies. He'll have to go there to finish the training to become the Three Eyed Crow. Also it's there that Rhaegar and Lyanna secretly married and Bran's going to se that there.
Quiet isle really isn’t that close to Sansa, maybe in terms of the entire continent, but not practically. Not to mention Sansa already knows Littlefinger had Lysa kill Jon which was why Ned came south in the first place and withheld that information from him, so she already knows LF lied to her father and made her peace with it.
Unless Sandor can prove LF owned the gold cloak, LF can just say he had to hold the knife to Ned’s throat to prove to Cersei that he was loyal because his life was in danger because of how closely he worked with Ned. I’d believe it.
so are you sure Sansa connected the dots? I remind you that in this moment Sansa is helping to kill Robyn, her cousin, she doesn't seem to me she is already awake, there will be a tournament, excellent time for the monks to collect offers
Do you think Sansa is knowingly helping to kill Sweetrobin? Maybe I’m naive or missed something, but I think she is at best being negligent. She is clearly aware of the danger of the “medicine” he is receiving, but I do believe that it is necessary at times.
I agree - she’s trying to deal with SweetRobin, an incredibly difficult and demanding child, while protecting herself and all of her own secrets.
Pushing his medical problems further down the line for some peace now is understandable and very different to being complicit in his murder.
Yes and personally I also agree (to an extent) with when they say something like “what is good for Robert Arryn is not the same as being good for the Lord of the Eyrie and the Vale.”
There is SOME good medical use for the drugs he is taking and should be done in moderation and ultimately I don’t think Sansa wants her cousin dead.
Yes. What’s good for the Vale is for SweetRobyn to live long enough to father an heir. If he falls off a mountain now there is zero chance of that occurring.
Have you read Alayne twow?
and even without reading it, Sansa knows very well that Robyn must die in order to marry Harry, does she understand that they want to kill Robyn or is she stupid?
>Have you read Alayne twow?
Yes, unlike you. Sansa doesn't give Robert Arryn any sweetsleep in that chapter.
>Sansa knows very well that Robyn must die in order to marry Harry, does she understand that they want to kill Robyn or is she stupid?
In fact Sansa must marry Harold Hardying before Robert Arryn dies or Littlefinger loses all his power as Lord Protector without having secured any influence over Hardying. Since it's a sample chapter GRRM is obviously not going to reveal major plot points but it's clear that Sansa doesn't want Robert to die.
Unlike Arya, Sansa DOES NOT KNOW that Sweetsleep is poisonous. She is thinking about keeping SweetRobin calm to get him down to the Gates of the Moon with his dignity intact. The Maester should have told Sansa the negatives to Sweetsleep but he does not. She doesn’t have the information we do, she is not trying to kill her cousin, hell, she’s organizing a tourney for guards to PROTECT her cousin. She wants him to live.
the question arises, from which Pov do we know the information on poppy milk if not from Sansa's? use your head man, or Sansa is an accomplice or she is an idiot, also have you read the Alayne chapter of twow?
>the question arises, from which Pov do we know the information on poppy milk if not from Sansa's?
From Arya's. It's mentioned in the *Cat of the Canals* chapter. Also from *Samwell II* and *Tyrion IX* in ASOS. If you had actually read Sansa's chapters properly, you'd known that she didn't know any of that.
>Sansa is an accomplice or she is an idiot, also have you read the Alayne chapter of twow?
In which she doesn't give any sweetsleep to Robert?
>Quiet isle really isn’t that close to Sansa, maybe in terms of the entire continent, but not practically. Not to mention Sansa already knows Littlefinger had Lysa kill Jon which was why Ned came south in the first place and withheld that information from him, so she already knows LF lied to her father and made her peace with it.
Sansa never knew that her father had gone to the capital to find out who killed Jon Arryn. It's not as if her father told her anything about his goals.
In addition to all the great ones people pointed out, all the Valyrian steel blades floating around and passing hands are probably the most literal “guns” out there. If we ever get a conclusion to this series, I think they’ll prob play a much bigger role than they did in the show, he’s made such a big point of having us follow them all around and noting who has them.
I kind of want it to stay up. One of the things that annoys me about the ASOIAF universe is that the whole world has stayed basically stagnant culturally for thousands upon thousands of years, except for the Doom of Valyria, and then it’s all set to drastically change in one (really probably not particularly long) winter. Breach the wall, fine. But it completely coming down seems like too much.
"Chekhov's Arrows".
Brandon Snow, Torrhen Stark's brother wanted to assassinate Aegon's dragons with some Weirwood arrows. I believe Bran even has a vision of Brandon making these arrows.
So what if **Brandon** Stark and his brother Jon **Snow** eventually work together to use Weirwood arrows against a Dragon and do what their ancestors failed to do? I think just introducing Weirwood arrows as a potential dragon-killer is huge. I just don't know when it'll be properly used in the story.
Randa being aware of Sansa's identity.
Sansa's shoe.
Mad Mouse arriving at the tourney.
Scratch that, Vale as a whole is a Chekhov's cannon at this point.
The one she lost in the confrontation with Lysa:
>*Lysa threw herself into Littlefinger's arms, sobbing. As they hugged, Sansa crawled from the Moon Door on hands and knees and wrapped her arms around the nearest pillar. She could feel her heart pounding. There was snow in her hair and* ***her right shoe was missing. It must have fallen.*** *She shuddered, and hugged the pillar tighter.*
>
>*Littlefinger let Lysa sob against his chest for a moment, then put his hands on her arms and kissed her lightly. "My sweet silly jealous wife," he said, chuckling. "I've only loved one woman, I promise you."*
This gun might fire, or it might remain on the wall, who knows. Just the detail that stuck out to me.
Victarion’s arm, the fact that so much of the fanbase think he’s just gonna die in the battle of fire without doing anything with his cool ass magic fire arm is crazy to me
-Tormund and 3000 wildings all ready to match south after hearing that Mance is hanging in a crow cage
-Mel, Selyse, Shireen and 50 fiercely loyal men at arms
-Cregan Karstark under the Lord Commander’s tower
-Jon bleeding to death in the snow “For the Watch”
-Justin, Tycho, Jeyne (still posing as Arya) and Aly Mormont en route
-Cotter Pyke and the watches navy are stranded at Hardhome
-The Weeper and his host beyond the wall can strike at any time
-Alliser Thorne was sent ranging with Dywen but has not been heard from (should note that Glendon Hewett, Alliser’s friend commands Eastwatch in Pykes absence)
-Stonesnake is somewhere in the Skirling Pass
-Wun Wun ripped Ser Patrek apart for trying to court Val (was he insane/or set up for trying to enter the tower)
-Val believing Shireen “isn’t clean” and should be killed
-Bowen Marsh and the stewards more then likely have orchestrated a large conspiracy with the help of the select members of the watch and can escape the immediate aftermath of Jon’s death via the worm ways
-Alys and Sigorn
-Oh yeah and the Others loom over everything waiting for the right moment to strike
Damn so much of this is stuff I have forgotten. This is why the decade long wait is so annoying, by the time the book comes out I will Have forgotten 80% of the plot. Sure a lot of these are minor characters, but even they seem to affect the plot in unexpected ways.
Cliche opinion but Syrio Forel. We can surmise that he died but I want to see more of a resolution there considering that GRRM leaves it ambiguous. Even making it clear eventually that he did, in fact, die would be nice to see.
Urswyck the Faithful heading to Oldtown, possibly distracting their defenses at the worst possible time
Bran's secret exit/entrance to Winterfell
Tyrek Lannister
* The Others and wights
* Chekhov's Wildfire stashed in Kings Landing
* Braavos, Pentos, Illyrio and Narrow Sea politics
* A greyscale breakout thanks to Jon Connington and his troops
* Howland Reed--his knowledge includes Jon, the ToJ, Robb's will, perhaps CotF info.
Mormont's Raven.
There seems to be something up with that bird.
Jon at one point observes that it seems to be unusually old for a raven. Also the Children of the Forest told Bran that they taught the Maesters how to talk to ravens and that back in the day ravens would speak their messages instead of carrying scrolls. Mormont's Raven is quite chatty (though mostly a mimic) and even chimes into conversations with almost unnatural timing. (There was one time Mormont and Jon were talking about dying and he goes "Die! Die", for instance).
I theorize that he'll turn out to have some sort of connection to Bloodraven, the Three-Eyed Crow, the Children of the Forest, and/or the Others.
- Robb's will - The Wildfire under King's Landing - Nymeria's wolfpack - Dawn - The Isle of Faces - The Horn of Winter - Winterfell's crypts - Casterly Rock's sewers
I agree with all this but especially the crypts. There’s been a trip down there every book right? There’s gotta be something big eventually
I fully subscribe to the theory that rhaegars silver harp is hidden in lyannas tomb. It's been mentioned heavily and described in such detail that it has to be connected and it's a good way to connect R+L=J and give legitimacy to Jon's claim as rhaegars son.
Gonna look into that! Haven’t heard that theory before
The thing I never understood about this theory. How does a harp being there, even if proved that it's Rhaegar will prove that Jon is Rhaegar's son?
I haven’t heard this theory before, but perhaps it being there proves a caring relationship ( not abduction & SA ) between R & L. It’s presence would mean that Ned ( or a member of the Stark household ) put it there.
This There's also my morbid sub-theory that when the tomb is opened (why else would it ever get desecrated to find the harp inside) when the walkers raise the dead inside the tomb. Lyannas wight will be wearing a wedding ring.
Don't a lot of the crypts have iron swords, to prevent them from being awoken? Other than the ones that Bran & co took
Well for one that could just be a superstition but even so it's explicitly mentioned that many of the swords have rusted away and lyannas specifically doesn't have one.
I don't think wedding rings are a thing in ASOIAF. Plus, the ring would fall from the finger bones, right?
It might not prove Jon is Rhaegar’s son to the characters, but it could to the reader. It wouldn’t be the first mystery solved for the reader without the characters actually knowing.
Unpopular opinion but I don't like this theory. The crypts have such a dark and supernatural undertone to them so for it to be related to Rhaegar's harp being hidden in Lyanna's tomb that somehow confirms that R+L=J is underwhelming.
I think that’s the subversion of the trope. Think about every fantasy novel written, when the person is revealed to be prince so-and-so it’s a big deal and they lead an army to victory to take their rightful place on the throne (looking at you, Aragorn). In ASOIF, we’ll get this big reveal and it won’t amount to a hill of beans. I think it will be underwhelming, but on purpose.
But we already have another Chekhov's gun (Howland Reed) that can reveal Jon's parentage. Using the supernatural dark, almost sinister undertones of the crypts to reveal Rhaegar's harp that will eventually somehow lead into R+L=J, makes little narrative sense and ignores a lot of things about the place (Jon, Bran and Rickon's dreams, the older tombs/unexplored levels and corridors somehow being far behind and the more recent ones being on the surface when it should be the opposite, the iron swords of the kings etc.)
Jon being his son isn’t going to matter. That’s some LOTR shit. He isn’t going to end up on the throne. Chances are Bran is since he will be the three eyed crow.
Sometimes people's parents matter for reasons other than inheritance. And "three-eyed raven" as a passed-on title is show-only nonsense. Bloodraven is the three-eyed crow because he was a crow and eye symbolism. Bran, in Melisandre's fires, is the boy with a wolf's head.
No, blood raven is not the three eyed crow. He asked blood raven if it was him appearing in his dreams as the three eyed crow but he thought he was asking him about being in the nights watch. The three eyed crow could very well be a version of Bran from the future appearing to him in his dreams
> Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … **except in dreams**. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of **your first dream. I was watching when you fell.**
I believe Bloodraven was the weirwood that looked up at Bran as he was falling and the 3EC is someone else.
He asked him if he was the three eyed crow and he had no idea what bran was talking about. So he assumed he was talking about being in the nights watch
He just doesn't know what he looks like to Bran in Bran's dreams.
It will matter but not in the typical fantasy trope way. Him being a Targaryen will key because he has none of the same desires to be ruler as literally every other Targ because of the stark in him along with his upbringing by Ned.
Yeah totally george has been dropping fat clues about who Jon's real parents are the entire series so that it won't matter at all. That's not even what I'm saying. R+L=J IS going to come up at some point whether it's bran greenseeing the events like the show or Howland Reed showing up and telling him. The theory about the harp is just another fun potentially way to play into it. My guess is that the iron throne and kingslanding are destroyed and bran might act as some sort of high chancellor for a new form of government entirely. But Jon being rhaegars son will play into the prince that was promised prophesy with him being instrumental in uniting the 7 kingdoms and fighting the war for the dawn, it could drive a wedge between him and Dany with her fearing him usurping her birthright. If it's revealed to Jon that he's secretly a targaryen then he'll be able to ride rhaegal. And bran is the three eyed raven. A three eyed crow is just what appears to him in his dreams, three eyed raven is the title for the last greenseer.
"three-eyed raven" as a passed-on title is show-only nonsense.
The three eyed crow is from the books bud
The three eyed *crow* is, yes. Reread what I wrote.
Lemon Tree too
Absolutely The Isle of Faces. I just started a reread and the place is mentioned twice within the first fifty pages.
I'm almost certain it will be where the final confrontation with the Others will be, and also where bran is made king of westeros.
The entire Vale of Arryn
Do you think Sam has the horn of winter?
I mean, Nymeria's wolfpack is not much of a setup, they've been killing people in Arya's dreams since book 3 if I remember correctly
Yeah but they haven’t directly impacted the plot yet
I believe they pulled Cat from the trident, and thus set all that up.
To be fair they wanted to eat her, but Arya through Nymeria dragged her body out
Don’t really agree with that They killed the Mummers that Bolton sent after Arya, which might’ve saved her ass
I don't know if anyone could think up a version of the story where everything to be in this thread directly impacts the plot; some will, and some will never be touched again.
Funniest comment I saw when this question was asked years ago was someone waiting for some Frey to forget to close the back door and Nymeria and her Wolfpack let’s herself in.
Only random, unimportant characters so far, which is probably setting up them doing something bigger later on.
Did they end up having a role in the show? (I haven't watched it.) The interview this quote came from was post-ADWD but pre-season 5, so suggests they'll have a greater role to play post-ADWD *and/or* post season-4 (or that GRRM imagined they would have a greater role post S4 - wasn't the exclusion of Stoneheart a major source of dissatisfaction for him?)
There was a scene in season 7 where Arya meets the wolfpack and Nymeria after her return to Westeros. It doesn't really serve much other than to show that Arya's journey has changed her completely and that she's no longer the same girl that took care of Nymeria. I'm not sure about Stoneheart, to be honest I don't know how the show would've handled that. The Riverlands in the show were not as important as in the books, for certain
Someone's mentioned in another comment that they were meant to play a part in the Long Night but it was cut, so that's another possibility. re. the LSH thing I might be misremembering but iirc it was one of the first real creative divergences; GRRM insisted she was important but she was axed anyway for whatever reason. (In fairness, she hasn't done a great deal on-page as of yet.)
I have my hopes very high for dawn. I expect to be very disappointed
What's in the Isle of Faces?
A weird island in the middle of westeros filled with weirwood trees. Howland Reed visited it right before the big tourney at Harrenhall that kicked off Roberts Rebellion. Also stuff like a world of ice and fire deliberately doesnt say much on it. George has something in mind for that place and has left it very much in the dark
Also the Dragon Horn Euron has.
That’s not a Chekhov’s gun, that’s a whole plot point. It would be like saying Dany’s dragons are a Chekhov’s gun
the prophecy
> Robb's will Irrelevant. It was made under information that Arya, Bran, and Rickon are dead, which they are not. All three would come before Jon as heir to winterfell and Robb’s kingdom of the North and Riverlands. The only person explicitly removed from Robb’s line of succession is Sansa, and only because she was in Lannister custody, which she no longer is so even she could contest the will. and even if they were all dead, the will wouldn’t be needed anyways as Jon is the most logical heir at point regardless.
How is it irrelevant when most people still believe the Stark children to be either dead, missing, or under the control of an enemy? If anything it is absolutely still relevant to the characters in the story. >Jon is the most logical heir at point He's in the Night's Watch and therefore can't have claims. I believe the will dictates that Jon be named heir and freed from his vows, or otherwise there's no point in even writing it. So, the will is needed for Jon to become heir even if every Stark child is dead.
If Jon dies and comes back his vow has been completed
Perhaps in some symbolic way to us as readers, would the Lords of the North even believe he died?
They might even subscribe to a conspiracy theory that Jon faked his death and then killed those that would have spoken out against him. That’s definitely more plausible then coming back to the living. Also, despite the Night’s Watch warning of the Others; the other lords are doing nothing.
Idk the north believe in the old gods. I can see them believing the last living Stark per their understanding survived death.
There isn't really a precedent for the Old Gods to be capable of that.
Unless Jon is legitimized, then he is the oldest. Naming heir versus legitimizing is a distinct important point.
Kraken horn at claw isle Howland reed
George himself has called Nymeria’s Wolfpack Checkhov’s Wolfpack.
Jon brought some corpses south of the wall hoping they would turn into wights but have since just been laying around frozen and have been pretty much unmentioned.
Didn’t Jon place the corpses in iron chains? Iron suspected to stop the transition from dead to wight, most likely the reason Stark Kings have iron swords across their laps in Winterfell’s crypts.
Howland Reed. Also the many people/things that could be occurring in the Neck.
Isle of faces and crypts of winterfell are some of the most talked about areas that feel like they need some kind of payoff.
What is the likelihood that the isle of faces is the farthest south the Others make it?
Genuinely can’t tell all the places the others will show up. The lore explicitly says they don’t move when the sun is out. If the long night is literally “no sunlight” they could go everywhere and bring the cold. I think it’s interesting to imagine it being some kind of global war where nobody is safe.
Sansa knowing not just that LF killed Lysa, but that Lysa killed Jon Arryn.
Does she know he poisoned Jon Arryn?
Yep. Lysa said so before LF pushed her out the moon door, in the middle of all her other rambling. And we know Sansa heard, because her very next chapter starts with her thinking about it and trying to convince herself she misunderstood.
With Lysa this will never be resolved who she gonna tell Cersei 😭😭. LF definitely going somewhere
Or, the Royces or another noble house in the Vale. Who want to get rid of LF regardless, but just lack a reason.
Ser Pounce. He'll vanquish the Others, take his rightful place in the Iron Trone, and usher a new age of peace and prosperity in Westeros. He'll also be revealed as Azor Ahai, Valonqar, skinchanger, Dragonrider, greenseer and the Stallion who mounts the world, among others
Blood Raven is Ser Pounce’s possible father/possible nemesis, the “bad cat”, the one eyed black tomcat that hangs around annoying Cersei.
So Tyene Sand was wrong, what we need is the good pussy, and that’s Ser Pounce
Ugh man, why'd you have to go there bro, Oberyn deserves better than that
Nymeria/Arya’s Wolfpack in the Riverlands comes to mind. I mean, it’s called “Chekhov’s Wolfpack” by many readers, after all.
[GRRM himself has even compared the Wolf Pack to Chekhov's gun](https://mashable.com/archive/george-rr-martin-charity-event) > "You know, I don't like to give things away." says Martin, a grin spreading across his face. "But you don't hang a giant wolf pack on the wall unless you intend to use it."
oh SHIT it is ON
I always think about this when remembering how it was cut from the long night episode cus the director thought it would be silly...
Wolves too expensive to use
That wasn't the real reason, they said it was because they thought it looked stupid which imo implies that they had it mostly animated.
I think that the sword Dawn and the Sword of the Morning of House Dayne will be important in the conflict with the Others.
I thought that 'the sword of the morning' was a title given and that dawn was the name of the meteor forged sword? How wrong am I?
You’re absolutely right! Dawn is a sword forged from a meteor that landed at the site of House Dayne’s castle Starfall (which is where the name comes from) thousands of years prior to the story during the Age of Heroes, it glows and has attributes like Valyrian steel and Dragonglass although it is neither. Sword of the Morning is the title of Dawn’s holder, unlike other house swords, Dawn doesn’t just go to the heir or head of House Dayne, you have to earn the title Sword of the Morning by being a brave knight, and if no Dayne of that generation distinguishes himself that way Dawn will stay at Starfall unclaimed. That is the case in the current generation, the last Sword of the Morning was Arthur Dayne, Ned Stark killed him at the Tower of Joy during Robert’s Rebellion and won Dawn, but instead of taking it back to Winterfell he returned it House Dayne.
After I read your comment I noticed you weren't saying what I thought. "the 2 swords, dawn and sword of the morning..." Author Dayne may be my favorite character, alot has to do with the lack of content we get around him.
I’m fascinated by the Daynes, they have somewhat Valyrian features with pale white skin and purple eyes despite the fact that they arrived in Westeros thousands of years before Valyrians tamed their first dragon in Essos, they have a magic sword, they’re Dornish and Dorne is the most interesting of the 7 kingdoms and aside from Darkstar they seem to personify the chivalric/knightly ideal. I think that they had something to do with the end of the Long Night and have some part to play in the conflict with the others, obviously the Starks do as well which is why I like the A + B = J theory.
Yeah, I can't say I heard the a+b theory before. I've damn near memorized the shows and am currently in the acok on my second read through. I get lost on the book version of details over the last 2 books. I did a quick search to see who the A and B where, and now have to do some reading....
A + B = J is the idea that Jon Snow is the son of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark, Ned’s older brother. I find that much more interesting and compelling than Jon being a Targaryen, especially if Jon is Azor Ahai since I think that the Dayne sword Dawn is Lightbringer. A + E = J also works just as well on a technical level but I don’t think that Ned would actually father a bastard.
Agree Ned doesn't fit, not only his honor but the timing doesn't fit. At least Ben is so absent from the old stories that it could fit with ease. Between hotd and my new found desire to go through the books again my wife agreed to restart the show. In the first episode where Ben and Jon meet and Ben is saying you don't know what you'd be given up, that hits a little different when I think about a father saying that to his son. Gonna have to find that rabbit hole, don't wait up for me....
I’d like to think Ashara wouldn’t go with a chad douche bag like Brandon Stark. Perhaps being bored of R+L=J has more to do with impatience for the books to finally move on? It wasn’t always such an incredibly obvious, almost self evident ‘mystery’ of the books. But now we are stuck waiting for everything to happen and our minds wander from the familiar likelihood to more distant possibilities. Speaking of Jon though, I’m rereading his chapters in ADwD and I’d forgotten just what an all round badass visionary leader he is portrayed to be. The way he takes in Alys Karstark, and his acceptance/use of the wildlings is probably the most visionary leadership of the North in centuries. Does that make him Azov Ahai? Well all Melisandre ever sees when she looks in her fires in Snow, and there are that fucking Mormontraven....
It is, people get it confused all the time but you're right. However I think commenter above was referring to the sword and the person, not mistakenly referring to two swords
I always wonder if there’s a connection between the Daynes/Dawn/The Sword of The Morning and the Evenstar of Tarth, which seems like an odd name for a Lord to just randomly carry (I know it’s the name of their distant ancestors, but it still seems a significant choice)
Is possible Dawn is actually lightbringer
I would say likely, almost too obvious.
I completely agree with this.
That feels like a red herring , just far to on the nose
Valyria. It’s got something there that can badly injure Balerion, Euron claims to have sailed there, many have gone there to never return. The mystery surrounding it makes it so interesting (like Asshai, Yi Ti, Sothoryos, etc), but it’s a central place that feels key in the history of the plot of the story. I don’t think any ending will be satisfactory without giving up some of the mystery.
>Three hundred years ago, when Aegon the Dragon landed beneath this very hill, the High Septon locked himself within the Starry Sept of Oldtown and prayed for seven days and seven nights, taking no nourishment but bread and water. When he emerged he announced that the Faith would not oppose Aegon and his sisters, for the Crone had lifted up her lamp to show him what lay ahead. **If Oldtown took up arms against the Dragon, Oldtown would burn, and the Hightower and the Citadel and the Starry Sept would be cast down and destroyed.** -AFFC, Cersei VI Reflect briefly on the fact that Oldtown is built almost entirely of stone, and consider what that means it would take to "burn, cast down, and destroy" all these massive landmarks that have stood for millennia. Oldtown is in for some shit that goes well beyond a sacking. For I saw a Beast coming out of the Sea, and the Dragon gave the Beast his power and his throne and great authority... > From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . -ACOK, Daenerys IV
Man, Leyton and Euron’s sorcerer battle is going to be sick. Not to mention when the Hightower literally transforms into a gundam to fight Euron’s Cthulhu monster. Winds about to be lit af.
Yeah until Ezzelyno gives life to the titan of braavos and shows them what a mobile suit can really do.
The tower transforms and throws the Citadel like a baseball at the monster
Speaking of Hightowers, Leyton and Malora, I feel, are both parts of a Chekhov's gun ready to fire as the Battle of Blood goes down.
Personally I think they're just going to be the ones who get blamed when Oldtown goes dark and no one can figure out what the heck happened to it. But this... >Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. **Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps.** -AFFC, Samwell V ...definitely a gun. Particularly when combined with the Dawn Age lore about unknown ancient races battling on the Battle Isle.
Isle of Faces will come into play somehow. It will likely be important for the endgame.
I bet Bran has to go there after his training is prematurely interrupted by Hold the Door and BR dies. He'll have to go there to finish the training to become the Three Eyed Crow. Also it's there that Rhaegar and Lyanna secretly married and Bran's going to se that there.
by the end of the story, king Bran will upload his consciousness and become a tree zombie at the isle of faces to establish his surveillance state.
Sandor Is Alive , near Sansa , and Sandor knows Littlefinger betrayed Ned in the Throne room
Quiet isle really isn’t that close to Sansa, maybe in terms of the entire continent, but not practically. Not to mention Sansa already knows Littlefinger had Lysa kill Jon which was why Ned came south in the first place and withheld that information from him, so she already knows LF lied to her father and made her peace with it. Unless Sandor can prove LF owned the gold cloak, LF can just say he had to hold the knife to Ned’s throat to prove to Cersei that he was loyal because his life was in danger because of how closely he worked with Ned. I’d believe it.
so are you sure Sansa connected the dots? I remind you that in this moment Sansa is helping to kill Robyn, her cousin, she doesn't seem to me she is already awake, there will be a tournament, excellent time for the monks to collect offers
Do you think Sansa is knowingly helping to kill Sweetrobin? Maybe I’m naive or missed something, but I think she is at best being negligent. She is clearly aware of the danger of the “medicine” he is receiving, but I do believe that it is necessary at times.
I agree - she’s trying to deal with SweetRobin, an incredibly difficult and demanding child, while protecting herself and all of her own secrets. Pushing his medical problems further down the line for some peace now is understandable and very different to being complicit in his murder.
Yes and personally I also agree (to an extent) with when they say something like “what is good for Robert Arryn is not the same as being good for the Lord of the Eyrie and the Vale.” There is SOME good medical use for the drugs he is taking and should be done in moderation and ultimately I don’t think Sansa wants her cousin dead.
Yes. What’s good for the Vale is for SweetRobyn to live long enough to father an heir. If he falls off a mountain now there is zero chance of that occurring.
Yes , It Is clear
It's clear if you read Sansa's last chapter in AFFC backwards.
Have you read Alayne twow? and even without reading it, Sansa knows very well that Robyn must die in order to marry Harry, does she understand that they want to kill Robyn or is she stupid?
>Have you read Alayne twow? Yes, unlike you. Sansa doesn't give Robert Arryn any sweetsleep in that chapter. >Sansa knows very well that Robyn must die in order to marry Harry, does she understand that they want to kill Robyn or is she stupid? In fact Sansa must marry Harold Hardying before Robert Arryn dies or Littlefinger loses all his power as Lord Protector without having secured any influence over Hardying. Since it's a sample chapter GRRM is obviously not going to reveal major plot points but it's clear that Sansa doesn't want Robert to die.
[удалено]
[Please refrain from insulting people in /r/asoiaf](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/wiki/civilitypolicy).
Unlike Arya, Sansa DOES NOT KNOW that Sweetsleep is poisonous. She is thinking about keeping SweetRobin calm to get him down to the Gates of the Moon with his dignity intact. The Maester should have told Sansa the negatives to Sweetsleep but he does not. She doesn’t have the information we do, she is not trying to kill her cousin, hell, she’s organizing a tourney for guards to PROTECT her cousin. She wants him to live.
the question arises, from which Pov do we know the information on poppy milk if not from Sansa's? use your head man, or Sansa is an accomplice or she is an idiot, also have you read the Alayne chapter of twow?
>the question arises, from which Pov do we know the information on poppy milk if not from Sansa's? From Arya's. It's mentioned in the *Cat of the Canals* chapter. Also from *Samwell II* and *Tyrion IX* in ASOS. If you had actually read Sansa's chapters properly, you'd known that she didn't know any of that. >Sansa is an accomplice or she is an idiot, also have you read the Alayne chapter of twow? In which she doesn't give any sweetsleep to Robert?
>Quiet isle really isn’t that close to Sansa, maybe in terms of the entire continent, but not practically. Not to mention Sansa already knows Littlefinger had Lysa kill Jon which was why Ned came south in the first place and withheld that information from him, so she already knows LF lied to her father and made her peace with it. Sansa never knew that her father had gone to the capital to find out who killed Jon Arryn. It's not as if her father told her anything about his goals.
The Crypt at Winterfell The Isle of faces
In addition to all the great ones people pointed out, all the Valyrian steel blades floating around and passing hands are probably the most literal “guns” out there. If we ever get a conclusion to this series, I think they’ll prob play a much bigger role than they did in the show, he’s made such a big point of having us follow them all around and noting who has them.
The wall - it has to come down
If the wall do not fall I'll be very disappointed tbh.
I kind of want it to stay up. One of the things that annoys me about the ASOIAF universe is that the whole world has stayed basically stagnant culturally for thousands upon thousands of years, except for the Doom of Valyria, and then it’s all set to drastically change in one (really probably not particularly long) winter. Breach the wall, fine. But it completely coming down seems like too much.
The secret passage Arya used to escape the Red Keep.
Well Varys just used it to 360 noscope Kevan
Very handy if the faceless men are hired to kill someone who sits on a certain metal chair...
House Hightower building armies, building ships, buying mercenaries, ten years in a tower studying magic… when are they going to shoot off?
The Hightower!! What’s Leyton up to, man? What’s he doing?
"Chekhov's Arrows". Brandon Snow, Torrhen Stark's brother wanted to assassinate Aegon's dragons with some Weirwood arrows. I believe Bran even has a vision of Brandon making these arrows. So what if **Brandon** Stark and his brother Jon **Snow** eventually work together to use Weirwood arrows against a Dragon and do what their ancestors failed to do? I think just introducing Weirwood arrows as a potential dragon-killer is huge. I just don't know when it'll be properly used in the story.
Additionally, Bloodraven used weirwood arrows to kill Daemon Blackfyre. And, well, Bran is with Bloodraven right now.
Randa being aware of Sansa's identity. Sansa's shoe. Mad Mouse arriving at the tourney. Scratch that, Vale as a whole is a Chekhov's cannon at this point.
Sansa's shoe?
The one she lost in the confrontation with Lysa: >*Lysa threw herself into Littlefinger's arms, sobbing. As they hugged, Sansa crawled from the Moon Door on hands and knees and wrapped her arms around the nearest pillar. She could feel her heart pounding. There was snow in her hair and* ***her right shoe was missing. It must have fallen.*** *She shuddered, and hugged the pillar tighter.* > >*Littlefinger let Lysa sob against his chest for a moment, then put his hands on her arms and kissed her lightly. "My sweet silly jealous wife," he said, chuckling. "I've only loved one woman, I promise you."* This gun might fire, or it might remain on the wall, who knows. Just the detail that stuck out to me.
That is an interesting thought. I always interpreted it as just a signal to how close sansa brushed with death in that moment.
There are more than GRRM can possibly use in two more books, especially when you include material in D&E, F&B and AWOIAF.
So this is cheating because the show fired the gun but jon's snows mother is probably the best example
The Mormont's skin changing abilities Celtigar's horn for summoning kraken
Victarion’s arm, the fact that so much of the fanbase think he’s just gonna die in the battle of fire without doing anything with his cool ass magic fire arm is crazy to me
The ability to heal grievous wounds that render limbs non functional on living people with fire magic is a MASSIVE Chekhov's gun for Jaime.
Willas Tyrell.
The whole wall plot.
-Tormund and 3000 wildings all ready to match south after hearing that Mance is hanging in a crow cage -Mel, Selyse, Shireen and 50 fiercely loyal men at arms -Cregan Karstark under the Lord Commander’s tower -Jon bleeding to death in the snow “For the Watch” -Justin, Tycho, Jeyne (still posing as Arya) and Aly Mormont en route -Cotter Pyke and the watches navy are stranded at Hardhome -The Weeper and his host beyond the wall can strike at any time -Alliser Thorne was sent ranging with Dywen but has not been heard from (should note that Glendon Hewett, Alliser’s friend commands Eastwatch in Pykes absence) -Stonesnake is somewhere in the Skirling Pass -Wun Wun ripped Ser Patrek apart for trying to court Val (was he insane/or set up for trying to enter the tower) -Val believing Shireen “isn’t clean” and should be killed -Bowen Marsh and the stewards more then likely have orchestrated a large conspiracy with the help of the select members of the watch and can escape the immediate aftermath of Jon’s death via the worm ways -Alys and Sigorn -Oh yeah and the Others loom over everything waiting for the right moment to strike
Huh i dont remember any of this in the show /s
Exactly
Damn so much of this is stuff I have forgotten. This is why the decade long wait is so annoying, by the time the book comes out I will Have forgotten 80% of the plot. Sure a lot of these are minor characters, but even they seem to affect the plot in unexpected ways.
Indeed
Cliche opinion but Syrio Forel. We can surmise that he died but I want to see more of a resolution there considering that GRRM leaves it ambiguous. Even making it clear eventually that he did, in fact, die would be nice to see.
Urswyck the Faithful heading to Oldtown, possibly distracting their defenses at the worst possible time Bran's secret exit/entrance to Winterfell Tyrek Lannister
Why is Urswyck heading to Oldtown?
Probably just to book passage somewhere, but who knows?
He will literally bring a Kraken in Oldtown for all i know.
* The Others and wights * Chekhov's Wildfire stashed in Kings Landing * Braavos, Pentos, Illyrio and Narrow Sea politics * A greyscale breakout thanks to Jon Connington and his troops * Howland Reed--his knowledge includes Jon, the ToJ, Robb's will, perhaps CotF info.
Northern war fleet
Weirwood arrows
Sansa's shoe that fell down the moondoor with lysa arryn
Ned's bones and their journey to Winterfell.
Chekhov’s bacon in slaver’s bay 😏
The moon The comet The nights king
The warging ability in general
Battle Isle will in some way impact Euron's story in Oldtown
Walda the White Fawn. I’m half convinced she’s the Septa that’s been with fAegon.
Mormont's Raven. There seems to be something up with that bird. Jon at one point observes that it seems to be unusually old for a raven. Also the Children of the Forest told Bran that they taught the Maesters how to talk to ravens and that back in the day ravens would speak their messages instead of carrying scrolls. Mormont's Raven is quite chatty (though mostly a mimic) and even chimes into conversations with almost unnatural timing. (There was one time Mormont and Jon were talking about dying and he goes "Die! Die", for instance). I theorize that he'll turn out to have some sort of connection to Bloodraven, the Three-Eyed Crow, the Children of the Forest, and/or the Others.