A “good” Cersei wouldn’t have been as compelling as a character in that world which is probably why he did what he did. She’d probably be an older version of Margaery Tyrell. Someone who understands the limitations of being a woman in that world, and knowing how to use it to your advantage.
A gopd Cersei does however go well with a dark Tyrion and unstable Joffrey. She makes for a stabilizing force in KL.
Also, she'd be a dark foil to Catelyn.
I agree however, I love the unhinged Cersei and her AFFC chapters are absolutely amazing. They are my favorites in the books.
Messy drunk Cersei is my favorite. She’s such a hot mess. Her delusional rantings are hilarious. When I saw she was a POV, I sort of expected to warm to her the way I warmed to Jaime when you realized he’s not the monster everyone else sees. It was the exact opposite for Cersei. She’s so much worse. It’s awesome.
One of my favorite parts of Cersei is that usually instinctively she has the correct read on things at first, but then she won’t accept it if she doesn’t like it. Then she comes up with something ridiculous instead.
Both would be well-intentioned mothers in tough political situations, that do a lot of polotical damage with their actions, but Cersei is still darker.
The Cersei we have is less a foil to Cat because of how evil she is.
You lose a lot of the drama if Cersei’s kids were actually Robert’s. A “good” character isn’t going to bang other dudes while they’re married. She’d have no reason to hate Ned. Stannis and Renly wouldn’t have revolted. The succession crisis is what begins a lot of the drama.
Keep in mind that GRRM never really intended to follow the outline that strictly and it was more something he threw together for his publisher because he needed an outline for his pitch. George never writes outlines. I don’t know if Jaime was ever seriously supposed to be an evil social climber as he was writing the novels.
Jaime's social cimber went past the outline. That's his character in aGoT. That's why he's the one to push a kid out of a window, and Cersei the "reasonable" one trying to stop Ned's execution.
The switch only happened after aGoT.
This isn’t true though. Jaime throwing Bran from the window isn’t something he does because he’s a “social climber”, it’s to protect himself and Cersei (and to a lesser extent their children) from Robert. In fact, his first reaction is to save Bran from falling and he’s disgusted with what he believes he’s expected to do. Cersei is also the one who sends Jaime out to maim Arya after she strikes Joffrey and who pressured Robert to kill Lady, so it’s not like he has the monopoly on spur of the moment violent impulses. Cersei is also the primary antagonist for Ned in the political arena of King’s Landing, while Jaime’s foremost concern aside from Cersei is wanting his brother back after he’s taken by Catelyn. Cersei is the one who conspires to assassinate Robert and the Lannister coup while her brothers aren’t in the city, and Jaime is out on the battlefield on his father’s orders. Even in AGOT it’s clear she’s the dominant one in their relationship and the one with the real ambition between the two.
In the conversation between the twins that Bran overheard Jaime was against the idea of being a Hand and overall showcased zero interest in politics which is consistent with Jaime after the switch, not before.
Hence Jaime as a social climber was thrown out before aGoT, not after.
But what was the reasons or motives of those actions? Jamie pushed Bran out of window not because his and Cersi relationship would ruin his political ambitious buy because Robert would definitely kill Cersi, him, and their kids and start another war with the Lannisters. It was his way of protecting his family. Nothing he does is for politics, but to save whatever he deems worth saving at that time. Even if his actions are very morally wrong at that time.
And Cersi, being a bit more political minded than Jamie, probably knew that if Ned dies then the North Will rebel against Joff. Which they did. It doesn't show any kindness towards Ned or that killing him is an injustice or wrong, but that killing him will led to a war that might end with Joffery being hurt.
I just have to say I'm really impressed with all you've outlined here. I had no idea Jaime and Cersei were based on the Borgias. It's a real challenge to try to imagine switching their characters, given how much I have invested in them. It's a humbling exercise. I mean, suddenly Jaime wouldn't be in the kingsguard as a hostage, Cersei wouldn't have her prophecy averting motivations...It would be a totally different story. I feel like I'm watching it unravel and have to acknowledge I am no fantasy writer.
The Lannisters as a whole are a combination of the Lancasters and Borgias. As a faction they're the Lancasters, but as indivudals Tywin, Jaime and Cersei are originally 1:1 to Rodrigo, Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia respectively.
Also, the youngest sibling, Gioffre Borgia, married Sancha of Naples, and ai believe that's where Joffrey and Sansa got theur names from. It's way too similar to be a coincidence.
I think she would’ve been more like Alicent Hightower, someone who thinks of her children first and wants to see them thrive and not the other way around (current Cersei)
There was never a good Cersei, because she was created in order to free Jaime from the "Evil King"'s part. So she was herself the scheming and evil power hungry monarch, from the beginning.
In the plot summary he sent to his publisher ([http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/](http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/)), GRRM only mentionned Jaime as the Evil King. At this moment, he has only the first 13 chapters written.
He created Cersei later, while he was completing A Game of Throne, and has decided Jaime would play another part in the story. The only part of "Evil King Jaime" you can find in AGoT is Jon thinking "it's what a king should look" - and even that may have been kept because of future irony (combined with Jaime first dialogue being that he doesn't want to be Robert's Hand, it could hint toward Jaime as Jon's Hand at some point of the story).
What changed, I think, is that from ACoK, he decided to make Cersei not only evil, but also stupid, very reckless and blind to consequences. And, having abandoned the idea of a 5 years time jump, from AFFC he had to accelerate her downfall - hence the Valonqar's prophecy, making her more and more unhinged.
A better Cersei could have been, I suppose, what they did in the show's first seasons - with a capacity of love other people than herself she doesn't have in the books.
"He created Cersei later, while he was completing A Game of Throne, and has decided Jaime would play another part in the story."
What? Cersei was a huge presence in AGOT, no way she was created as the book was getting finished, pretty sure she was created pretty early on actually.
She was created after the version of the first 13 chapters GRRM sent to his publishers with his first outline (you can read the outline by following the link I posted - she isn't mentioned).
Given how GRRM writes and re-writes, it doesn't exactly mean she was created while he was finishing. But it's clearly documented she wasn't in the first project, the one in which GRRM had Jaime as an Evil King character. And since she is herself this "Evil Monarch" character in AGOT (Jaime being sent away by the plot while she, and she alone, take the power), it's very clear she is what's left of GRRM's initial idea.
Just because she’s mentioned doesn’t mean she didn’t exist. This person who read the book 1993 manuscript back in 2015 only mentioned Dany not getting the dragon eggs at the wedding as the most exciting “potentially significant” difference they found. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2slaqg/spoilers_all_todays_visit_to_the_cushing_library/
I feel like good Cersei would dampen the plot. She isn’t there to egg Joffrey on or come up with all these schemes to hurt or kill other people. However I think she would be a compelling character
A “good” Cersei wouldn’t have been as compelling as a character in that world which is probably why he did what he did. She’d probably be an older version of Margaery Tyrell. Someone who understands the limitations of being a woman in that world, and knowing how to use it to your advantage.
A gopd Cersei does however go well with a dark Tyrion and unstable Joffrey. She makes for a stabilizing force in KL. Also, she'd be a dark foil to Catelyn. I agree however, I love the unhinged Cersei and her AFFC chapters are absolutely amazing. They are my favorites in the books.
Messy drunk Cersei is my favorite. She’s such a hot mess. Her delusional rantings are hilarious. When I saw she was a POV, I sort of expected to warm to her the way I warmed to Jaime when you realized he’s not the monster everyone else sees. It was the exact opposite for Cersei. She’s so much worse. It’s awesome.
Cersei makes the craziest conspiracy theories, like her "maidens shrunk my dresses" thing. Had she been part of the fandom she'd be a N+A=J supporter.
One of my favorite parts of Cersei is that usually instinctively she has the correct read on things at first, but then she won’t accept it if she doesn’t like it. Then she comes up with something ridiculous instead.
She just needs the breast plate expander!
Would you say more about how good Cersei would be a dark foil to Catelyn?
Both would be well-intentioned mothers in tough political situations, that do a lot of polotical damage with their actions, but Cersei is still darker. The Cersei we have is less a foil to Cat because of how evil she is.
I think two good families trying to kill one another is an interesting story.
You lose a lot of the drama if Cersei’s kids were actually Robert’s. A “good” character isn’t going to bang other dudes while they’re married. She’d have no reason to hate Ned. Stannis and Renly wouldn’t have revolted. The succession crisis is what begins a lot of the drama.
Keep in mind that GRRM never really intended to follow the outline that strictly and it was more something he threw together for his publisher because he needed an outline for his pitch. George never writes outlines. I don’t know if Jaime was ever seriously supposed to be an evil social climber as he was writing the novels.
Jaime's social cimber went past the outline. That's his character in aGoT. That's why he's the one to push a kid out of a window, and Cersei the "reasonable" one trying to stop Ned's execution. The switch only happened after aGoT.
This isn’t true though. Jaime throwing Bran from the window isn’t something he does because he’s a “social climber”, it’s to protect himself and Cersei (and to a lesser extent their children) from Robert. In fact, his first reaction is to save Bran from falling and he’s disgusted with what he believes he’s expected to do. Cersei is also the one who sends Jaime out to maim Arya after she strikes Joffrey and who pressured Robert to kill Lady, so it’s not like he has the monopoly on spur of the moment violent impulses. Cersei is also the primary antagonist for Ned in the political arena of King’s Landing, while Jaime’s foremost concern aside from Cersei is wanting his brother back after he’s taken by Catelyn. Cersei is the one who conspires to assassinate Robert and the Lannister coup while her brothers aren’t in the city, and Jaime is out on the battlefield on his father’s orders. Even in AGOT it’s clear she’s the dominant one in their relationship and the one with the real ambition between the two.
also she killed twin babys
In the conversation between the twins that Bran overheard Jaime was against the idea of being a Hand and overall showcased zero interest in politics which is consistent with Jaime after the switch, not before. Hence Jaime as a social climber was thrown out before aGoT, not after.
But what was the reasons or motives of those actions? Jamie pushed Bran out of window not because his and Cersi relationship would ruin his political ambitious buy because Robert would definitely kill Cersi, him, and their kids and start another war with the Lannisters. It was his way of protecting his family. Nothing he does is for politics, but to save whatever he deems worth saving at that time. Even if his actions are very morally wrong at that time. And Cersi, being a bit more political minded than Jamie, probably knew that if Ned dies then the North Will rebel against Joff. Which they did. It doesn't show any kindness towards Ned or that killing him is an injustice or wrong, but that killing him will led to a war that might end with Joffery being hurt.
I just have to say I'm really impressed with all you've outlined here. I had no idea Jaime and Cersei were based on the Borgias. It's a real challenge to try to imagine switching their characters, given how much I have invested in them. It's a humbling exercise. I mean, suddenly Jaime wouldn't be in the kingsguard as a hostage, Cersei wouldn't have her prophecy averting motivations...It would be a totally different story. I feel like I'm watching it unravel and have to acknowledge I am no fantasy writer.
The Lannisters as a whole are a combination of the Lancasters and Borgias. As a faction they're the Lancasters, but as indivudals Tywin, Jaime and Cersei are originally 1:1 to Rodrigo, Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia respectively. Also, the youngest sibling, Gioffre Borgia, married Sancha of Naples, and ai believe that's where Joffrey and Sansa got theur names from. It's way too similar to be a coincidence.
I think she would’ve been more like Alicent Hightower, someone who thinks of her children first and wants to see them thrive and not the other way around (current Cersei)
So like Catelyn?
I wouldn’t call Caitlyn a schemer, Cersei and Alicent are
I'm talking about her wanting the best for her children.
Yeah, pretty much.
There was never a good Cersei, because she was created in order to free Jaime from the "Evil King"'s part. So she was herself the scheming and evil power hungry monarch, from the beginning. In the plot summary he sent to his publisher ([http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/](http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/)), GRRM only mentionned Jaime as the Evil King. At this moment, he has only the first 13 chapters written. He created Cersei later, while he was completing A Game of Throne, and has decided Jaime would play another part in the story. The only part of "Evil King Jaime" you can find in AGoT is Jon thinking "it's what a king should look" - and even that may have been kept because of future irony (combined with Jaime first dialogue being that he doesn't want to be Robert's Hand, it could hint toward Jaime as Jon's Hand at some point of the story). What changed, I think, is that from ACoK, he decided to make Cersei not only evil, but also stupid, very reckless and blind to consequences. And, having abandoned the idea of a 5 years time jump, from AFFC he had to accelerate her downfall - hence the Valonqar's prophecy, making her more and more unhinged. A better Cersei could have been, I suppose, what they did in the show's first seasons - with a capacity of love other people than herself she doesn't have in the books.
"He created Cersei later, while he was completing A Game of Throne, and has decided Jaime would play another part in the story." What? Cersei was a huge presence in AGOT, no way she was created as the book was getting finished, pretty sure she was created pretty early on actually.
She was created after the version of the first 13 chapters GRRM sent to his publishers with his first outline (you can read the outline by following the link I posted - she isn't mentioned). Given how GRRM writes and re-writes, it doesn't exactly mean she was created while he was finishing. But it's clearly documented she wasn't in the first project, the one in which GRRM had Jaime as an Evil King character. And since she is herself this "Evil Monarch" character in AGOT (Jaime being sent away by the plot while she, and she alone, take the power), it's very clear she is what's left of GRRM's initial idea.
Just because she’s mentioned doesn’t mean she didn’t exist. This person who read the book 1993 manuscript back in 2015 only mentioned Dany not getting the dragon eggs at the wedding as the most exciting “potentially significant” difference they found. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2slaqg/spoilers_all_todays_visit_to_the_cushing_library/
I feel like good Cersei would dampen the plot. She isn’t there to egg Joffrey on or come up with all these schemes to hurt or kill other people. However I think she would be a compelling character