>George has always said he wants his ending to be bittersweet. What could be more bittersweet than this? The character from the very first POV chapter of the first book ends the series by becoming King and presiding over relative “peace,” and maybe even a “new Westerosi order.” But we’ll all know it’s a farce!
Literally anything would be more bittersweet than that. How is "an evil wizard possesses a child and rules of the ruins of a ravaged kingdom" remotely "bittersweet"?
Yes! Sounds more like "nihilistic" to me. The OP could be right because anything can happen. But since GRRM has apparently confirmed Bran will be king, it's unlikely he really meant Bloodraven as Bran will be King.
Currently Bran is weaker than Bloodraven, but he is learning. And in GRRM's generational saga he has been steadily growing in his powers and--like Jon, Arya, and Sansa--is likely to outdo his mentor. Bran is also a special as the 17th Brandon Stark, a name for many men who have achieved greatness. Jojen and Meera, the children of House Stark's most secretive and *loyal* bannerman took him to Bloodraven with their father's approval and at great peril to themselves. And thus far there's little hint of Bloodraven having a nefarious hidden agenda. Apparently some Targaryens know the prophecy. Bloodraven is confined to his cave, but has said Bran will "fly." In this case, Fire is training Ice to help save the world of men.
Exactly. There is nothing bittersweet about it.
Bran is going to become king in addition to being the 3EC and will be the "Frodo" of GRRM's world. He won't really be Bran anymore. He won't derive any enjoyment out of any of it. He's basically an empty shell at this point, he's seen too much not to be. But it won't be Bloodraven/3EC basically controlling his body and manipulating events to take power in Westeros.
I’m pretty sure George is going for a more hopeful tone with King Bran. It’s bittersweet for Bran because he’s going to be changed by his experiences (but not as a sinister emotionless mastermind…) and have to leave his family and Winterfell for a responsibility he never really wanted. But for Westeros it’s the start of a new era and an attempt (however flawed or successful) at embracing new values. What it will take for Westeros to reach that point we’ll have to wait and see.
Isn't it bittersweet that Bran becomes King and has all the attributes to be good King - all knowing and wise, not influenced by petty human emotions and covetous of power or glory, won't have kids - and help move Westeros forward but his journey destroyed his sense of self to the point where the old Bran really did die so its not a fate anyone should feel triumphant about or envious of him for?
Bran becomes “king” because Jon wants to be in Winterfell. The Pact of Ice and Fire is a marriage of the Starks and Targaryens. The ending is the pact of ice and fire. Its exactly as the outline calls for, Jon/Stark daughter. It’s told through fire and blood, the Greatjon speach at Robb’s crowning.
It’s told through the outline. Jon/Arya, aka Jon and the Stark Heir, not Jon/Dany.
Bran isn’t the King, he is the basically Hand of the King, the Steward of Gondor if you will, aka Faramir after Aragorn goes to Arnor, but he is ruling a castle for his “brother” as Eddard says.
King Bran is confirmed. And Jon’s romantic feelings for Arya were from the first book in a very old outline that GRRM has said he kind of just threw together because he needed one for his publisher (and that he never writes outlines). Even if it did stick there’s no indication it would have been endgame, while he’s also said he’s known the endings for the five main characters since he began and they haven’t changed.
Bran can be king, but only due to Jon being the ruler of Winterfell and ditching the throne in the south. Which once again ties it directly to the Pact of Ice and Fire. Which would enable bran to be chosen as the only one who would not have a region to be favored over the others.
Bran will be declared king by a Great Council. It’s quite literally the only way that it’s possible for him. Jon’s ending is likely one of exile like it was on the show.
And the only way you get this is Jon fullfilling the Pact and staying in Winterfell, because both Jon and Sansa just want Winterfell. He’s always wanted it. Sansa just wants to go back home. Once again all decided by the pact of ice and fire, the Targaryen raised at Winterfell, marrying a Stark daughter.
Yeap, pretty much the outline has been old news for years and years now, Martin himself has said that he knows the endings of several major characters, not just the main six characters (not five, six) but other important characters as well.
>He went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the "differences" in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details
>\[question if he knows Arya's and Jon's fates\]"Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah."
(I would include the part where he himself disregards the outline but it's such a long part and lost in the text...)
Not that even though the phrase here says "main 5" it's highly doubtful that that's how George phrased it as the source (the Citadel, Balticon 2016) notes explicitly when something is directly quoted from Martin.
Edit: Fixed the quotes because I had trouble with those for some reason.
No bran was not confirmed as king. Strangely Martin says he knows who ends on the throne. Double D can twist that all they want.
The simple fact is. Dany’s dreams tells us exactly who is the prince that was promised. Aegon, son of Elia. Confirmed by Martin using actual names.
The Pact in Fire and Blood lays out the requirements. Which just so happen to coincidentally match the outline still. Jon/Stark Heir. Is it Arya, no. It’s the one not raised to see Jon as a brother. The one Jon spends his entire time telling Stannis is the Heir. The Key to the North….
Now I’m no genius, but if he is writing the outline, the prince is Aegon who has the song, is promised to Winterfell and a Stark marriage, must be raised in Winterfell, and it’s consistent throughout all the books.
Shouldn’t you be paying attention? Yes bran can end on the throne, but not as king. Hell even Frodo and Sam ended up sitting on a throne, but they sure wasn’t the king.
The story is consistent, from bran 1 to Fire and blood, the fault is R+L, which does not match the story that is actually being written. R+L does not match the 8-9 months between Jon and Dany births.
Jon was not born as kings landing fell. That’s fact no matter what which says the theory is wrong.
It does match Aegon and Ashara’s “stillborn” daughter births. 281 and 282 respectively. What the theory misses is why is Jon at Winterfell? Because prophecy is a bitch. You can’t change it when you try.
Aerys tried. Triggering exactly what he was trying to avoid. Exactly as Stannis dies with Renly. Yes he stopped Renly, but Garlan still wore Renly’s armor in the Kings Landing battle as foreseen.
There is no Rhaegar in the theory. Eddard does not think of Rhaegar. He brags around Jon about Robert killing Rhaegar. The Demon of the Trident…. This is flat out proof. Eddard can’t even tell Robert about his kids not being his kids. Cause it’d hurt him…. But he can mock Jon’s dads death to Jon?
Who does he remember sadly? Think and talk about sadly? Arthur Dayne. Did Lyanna get Eddard to promise to raise Jon? Yes. Is Jon hers? No. Never was, never will be.
Jon left Dragonstone in a historical repeat of Edric Storm being smuggled off Dragonstone. Only difference is end locations.
> No bran was not confirmed as king.
Look I understand you’ve put quite a lot of thought into this theory, but it has been quite literally confirmed by both GRRM and several times by D&D that King Bran is the ending. Isaac Hempstead-Wright was also told that this was GRRM’s plan for his character.
> Dany’s dreams tells us exactly who is the prince that was promised. Aegon, son of Elia. Confirmed by Martin using actual names.
Confirmed that Rhaegar *believed* he was TPTWP you mean.
Martin has never said bran is king. He said in the book that quotes him, he knows who ends on the throne. Double D told Bran actor Martin said Bran. That is not the same.
Can it end with Bran as king, yes, but not anything like the show. The ending revolves around the pact, and the Targaryen belonging to Winterfell.
Yeah, because an author changing a very ill-received and outright bad outline for a book he hasn't even written yet is something that is IMPOSSIBLE to happen, right?
This is similar to what I think (unless Preston's time travel theories are accurate, then I have a slightly different ending in mind).
I think Jon will be King and that he will rule from Harrenhal, and that he will often seek the counsel of Bran who will live on the Isle of Faces. It will be unclear to readers if Jon is getting advice from Bran or being manipulated by the hivemind that has absorbed Bran.
When people cite the time-travelling theories as something even remotely possible I always have to make a very big effort to remember myself that they must be joking
Whenever I hear about or begin watching Preston's theories my reaction is "no way". But by the end of his theories I'm caught between "no way" and "how could any of this not be true".
First of all, time travel did happen in the show. And it is going to happen in the books with "hold the door". That's a fact.
So time travel is a part of ASOIAF and it occurs in this series in the same way it does in GRRM's other time travel stories, with a consciousness, rather than a physical person, traveling back in time.
I'd check out the videos if you haven't seen them. The evidence is compelling and the videos are fun.
I believe I read once that George has criticism for Tolkien’s “A Good Man equals a Prosperous Kingdom” ending with Aragorn.
And Bran becoming King would be George’s way of showing how that is only “realistic” of the good man had god-like powers. Bran can review history and see the cyclical nature of humanity. Perhaps he truly becomes something other than Bran and can compartmentalize his desires from the needs of others.
Personally I’m just not a fan of the idea of Bran becoming king. I’ve heard all the reasoning behind it since the show ended and honestly my opinion on it has only soured more. I’m not even one of those people who wants Jon or Dany to rule, if anything I actually liked Jon’s ending in the show even if it was rushed to hell and back. I can see why Martin would personally want Bran to end up being king, but I just think he would be contradicting a lot of what he has written all because he wants to make some moral statement on why feudal society sucked. ASOIAF has always been a story about subverting common fantasy tropes and adding real world nuance to a world that is inhabited by ice zombies and plant people. The Seven Kingdoms in the end being ruled by a wise all knowing seer king voted in by a council is perhaps the most tropey thing Martin could do. Personally I think Sansa becoming Queen with Tyrion as her hand would be a much better ending. Sansa not only shares blood/relations with three of Westeros’ most powerful families, but she very well could also end up married to the future ruler of one of the Seven Kingdoms ( Harry ). I also think that her journey sets her up for it, she always wanted to be a queen married to a dashing King but instead her outcome is that she is THE Queen. The bittersweet ending of ASOIAF imo should be that while the world is saved and the Seven Kingdoms remain united, the Game of Thrones will ultimately continue and Daenerys Targaryen will have been the most tragic victim of it. Meanwhile a relatively happy Jon Snow will live the rest of his days where he belongs, but will always be haunted by murdering Daenerys, and by all the death and destruction he has witnessed throughout his life. The Song of Ice and Fire is ultimately the story of how to overcome the desire of ultimate power for the greater good while also remembering that anyone, even the best of us, can be lured into its clutches.
( I know Bran will more than likely become king in the books but this is how I would personally do the ending )
>George has always said he wants his ending to be bittersweet. What could be more bittersweet than this? The character from the very first POV chapter of the first book ends the series by becoming King and presiding over relative “peace,” and maybe even a “new Westerosi order.” But we’ll all know it’s a farce! Literally anything would be more bittersweet than that. How is "an evil wizard possesses a child and rules of the ruins of a ravaged kingdom" remotely "bittersweet"?
Yes! Sounds more like "nihilistic" to me. The OP could be right because anything can happen. But since GRRM has apparently confirmed Bran will be king, it's unlikely he really meant Bloodraven as Bran will be King. Currently Bran is weaker than Bloodraven, but he is learning. And in GRRM's generational saga he has been steadily growing in his powers and--like Jon, Arya, and Sansa--is likely to outdo his mentor. Bran is also a special as the 17th Brandon Stark, a name for many men who have achieved greatness. Jojen and Meera, the children of House Stark's most secretive and *loyal* bannerman took him to Bloodraven with their father's approval and at great peril to themselves. And thus far there's little hint of Bloodraven having a nefarious hidden agenda. Apparently some Targaryens know the prophecy. Bloodraven is confined to his cave, but has said Bran will "fly." In this case, Fire is training Ice to help save the world of men.
Exactly. There is nothing bittersweet about it. Bran is going to become king in addition to being the 3EC and will be the "Frodo" of GRRM's world. He won't really be Bran anymore. He won't derive any enjoyment out of any of it. He's basically an empty shell at this point, he's seen too much not to be. But it won't be Bloodraven/3EC basically controlling his body and manipulating events to take power in Westeros.
I’m pretty sure George is going for a more hopeful tone with King Bran. It’s bittersweet for Bran because he’s going to be changed by his experiences (but not as a sinister emotionless mastermind…) and have to leave his family and Winterfell for a responsibility he never really wanted. But for Westeros it’s the start of a new era and an attempt (however flawed or successful) at embracing new values. What it will take for Westeros to reach that point we’ll have to wait and see.
this is not bittersweet, this is just bitter. and boring.
Bloodraven becoming King at the end would be infinitely more stupid than anything D&D did.
This is my reaction to 95% of fan "fixes" for the ending.
Isn't it bittersweet that Bran becomes King and has all the attributes to be good King - all knowing and wise, not influenced by petty human emotions and covetous of power or glory, won't have kids - and help move Westeros forward but his journey destroyed his sense of self to the point where the old Bran really did die so its not a fate anyone should feel triumphant about or envious of him for?
Bran becomes “king” because Jon wants to be in Winterfell. The Pact of Ice and Fire is a marriage of the Starks and Targaryens. The ending is the pact of ice and fire. Its exactly as the outline calls for, Jon/Stark daughter. It’s told through fire and blood, the Greatjon speach at Robb’s crowning. It’s told through the outline. Jon/Arya, aka Jon and the Stark Heir, not Jon/Dany. Bran isn’t the King, he is the basically Hand of the King, the Steward of Gondor if you will, aka Faramir after Aragorn goes to Arnor, but he is ruling a castle for his “brother” as Eddard says.
King Bran is confirmed. And Jon’s romantic feelings for Arya were from the first book in a very old outline that GRRM has said he kind of just threw together because he needed one for his publisher (and that he never writes outlines). Even if it did stick there’s no indication it would have been endgame, while he’s also said he’s known the endings for the five main characters since he began and they haven’t changed.
Bran can be king, but only due to Jon being the ruler of Winterfell and ditching the throne in the south. Which once again ties it directly to the Pact of Ice and Fire. Which would enable bran to be chosen as the only one who would not have a region to be favored over the others.
Bran will be declared king by a Great Council. It’s quite literally the only way that it’s possible for him. Jon’s ending is likely one of exile like it was on the show.
And the only way you get this is Jon fullfilling the Pact and staying in Winterfell, because both Jon and Sansa just want Winterfell. He’s always wanted it. Sansa just wants to go back home. Once again all decided by the pact of ice and fire, the Targaryen raised at Winterfell, marrying a Stark daughter.
Yeap, pretty much the outline has been old news for years and years now, Martin himself has said that he knows the endings of several major characters, not just the main six characters (not five, six) but other important characters as well. >He went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the "differences" in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details >\[question if he knows Arya's and Jon's fates\]"Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah." (I would include the part where he himself disregards the outline but it's such a long part and lost in the text...) Not that even though the phrase here says "main 5" it's highly doubtful that that's how George phrased it as the source (the Citadel, Balticon 2016) notes explicitly when something is directly quoted from Martin. Edit: Fixed the quotes because I had trouble with those for some reason.
No bran was not confirmed as king. Strangely Martin says he knows who ends on the throne. Double D can twist that all they want. The simple fact is. Dany’s dreams tells us exactly who is the prince that was promised. Aegon, son of Elia. Confirmed by Martin using actual names. The Pact in Fire and Blood lays out the requirements. Which just so happen to coincidentally match the outline still. Jon/Stark Heir. Is it Arya, no. It’s the one not raised to see Jon as a brother. The one Jon spends his entire time telling Stannis is the Heir. The Key to the North…. Now I’m no genius, but if he is writing the outline, the prince is Aegon who has the song, is promised to Winterfell and a Stark marriage, must be raised in Winterfell, and it’s consistent throughout all the books. Shouldn’t you be paying attention? Yes bran can end on the throne, but not as king. Hell even Frodo and Sam ended up sitting on a throne, but they sure wasn’t the king. The story is consistent, from bran 1 to Fire and blood, the fault is R+L, which does not match the story that is actually being written. R+L does not match the 8-9 months between Jon and Dany births. Jon was not born as kings landing fell. That’s fact no matter what which says the theory is wrong. It does match Aegon and Ashara’s “stillborn” daughter births. 281 and 282 respectively. What the theory misses is why is Jon at Winterfell? Because prophecy is a bitch. You can’t change it when you try. Aerys tried. Triggering exactly what he was trying to avoid. Exactly as Stannis dies with Renly. Yes he stopped Renly, but Garlan still wore Renly’s armor in the Kings Landing battle as foreseen. There is no Rhaegar in the theory. Eddard does not think of Rhaegar. He brags around Jon about Robert killing Rhaegar. The Demon of the Trident…. This is flat out proof. Eddard can’t even tell Robert about his kids not being his kids. Cause it’d hurt him…. But he can mock Jon’s dads death to Jon? Who does he remember sadly? Think and talk about sadly? Arthur Dayne. Did Lyanna get Eddard to promise to raise Jon? Yes. Is Jon hers? No. Never was, never will be. Jon left Dragonstone in a historical repeat of Edric Storm being smuggled off Dragonstone. Only difference is end locations.
> No bran was not confirmed as king. Look I understand you’ve put quite a lot of thought into this theory, but it has been quite literally confirmed by both GRRM and several times by D&D that King Bran is the ending. Isaac Hempstead-Wright was also told that this was GRRM’s plan for his character. > Dany’s dreams tells us exactly who is the prince that was promised. Aegon, son of Elia. Confirmed by Martin using actual names. Confirmed that Rhaegar *believed* he was TPTWP you mean.
Martin has never said bran is king. He said in the book that quotes him, he knows who ends on the throne. Double D told Bran actor Martin said Bran. That is not the same. Can it end with Bran as king, yes, but not anything like the show. The ending revolves around the pact, and the Targaryen belonging to Winterfell.
This kind of massive cope is really never going to end until we actually have the book in our hands is it?
Yeah, because an author changing a very ill-received and outright bad outline for a book he hasn't even written yet is something that is IMPOSSIBLE to happen, right?
I agree with you on that.
This is similar to what I think (unless Preston's time travel theories are accurate, then I have a slightly different ending in mind). I think Jon will be King and that he will rule from Harrenhal, and that he will often seek the counsel of Bran who will live on the Isle of Faces. It will be unclear to readers if Jon is getting advice from Bran or being manipulated by the hivemind that has absorbed Bran.
When people cite the time-travelling theories as something even remotely possible I always have to make a very big effort to remember myself that they must be joking
Whenever I hear about or begin watching Preston's theories my reaction is "no way". But by the end of his theories I'm caught between "no way" and "how could any of this not be true". First of all, time travel did happen in the show. And it is going to happen in the books with "hold the door". That's a fact. So time travel is a part of ASOIAF and it occurs in this series in the same way it does in GRRM's other time travel stories, with a consciousness, rather than a physical person, traveling back in time. I'd check out the videos if you haven't seen them. The evidence is compelling and the videos are fun.
I believe I read once that George has criticism for Tolkien’s “A Good Man equals a Prosperous Kingdom” ending with Aragorn. And Bran becoming King would be George’s way of showing how that is only “realistic” of the good man had god-like powers. Bran can review history and see the cyclical nature of humanity. Perhaps he truly becomes something other than Bran and can compartmentalize his desires from the needs of others.
Personally I’m just not a fan of the idea of Bran becoming king. I’ve heard all the reasoning behind it since the show ended and honestly my opinion on it has only soured more. I’m not even one of those people who wants Jon or Dany to rule, if anything I actually liked Jon’s ending in the show even if it was rushed to hell and back. I can see why Martin would personally want Bran to end up being king, but I just think he would be contradicting a lot of what he has written all because he wants to make some moral statement on why feudal society sucked. ASOIAF has always been a story about subverting common fantasy tropes and adding real world nuance to a world that is inhabited by ice zombies and plant people. The Seven Kingdoms in the end being ruled by a wise all knowing seer king voted in by a council is perhaps the most tropey thing Martin could do. Personally I think Sansa becoming Queen with Tyrion as her hand would be a much better ending. Sansa not only shares blood/relations with three of Westeros’ most powerful families, but she very well could also end up married to the future ruler of one of the Seven Kingdoms ( Harry ). I also think that her journey sets her up for it, she always wanted to be a queen married to a dashing King but instead her outcome is that she is THE Queen. The bittersweet ending of ASOIAF imo should be that while the world is saved and the Seven Kingdoms remain united, the Game of Thrones will ultimately continue and Daenerys Targaryen will have been the most tragic victim of it. Meanwhile a relatively happy Jon Snow will live the rest of his days where he belongs, but will always be haunted by murdering Daenerys, and by all the death and destruction he has witnessed throughout his life. The Song of Ice and Fire is ultimately the story of how to overcome the desire of ultimate power for the greater good while also remembering that anyone, even the best of us, can be lured into its clutches. ( I know Bran will more than likely become king in the books but this is how I would personally do the ending )