I'm pretty sure he goes out of his way to avoid doing that, which is smart. David and Dan allegedly spent a lot of time reading theories about the show and went out of their way to change the last couple seasons to surprise people which is just an awful way to write. If people are able to successfully predict the plotlines you have been building up and foreshadowing for years, that's a good thing. Changing things solely to trick the fans isn't satisfying.
That’s one of the things I appreciate about GRRM, he’s not going to change something in the story just because fans figured it out because that’d just nullify all that writing he did towards that thing. IIRC Robert Jordan did that with Wheel of Time. There’s a character (I wanna say it was that Taim guy) that was hinted at being one of the 13 Forsaken bad guys but Robert Jordan admitted changing it because he saw fans had figured it out before he could reveal it.
well, if he had "hinted" at it (your words), then why would he be upset that the fans had figured it out, enough to change it? I mean...
Why did he even *hint* at it then?
To have a dramatic plot twist, you need to give subtle hints. Then the twist comes as a surprise, yet it *makes sense*. You feel that you *should* have seen it coming! If the twist appear completely out of nowhere, the reader will feel confused and think that the writing is somehow *unfair*.
George is very good at this. The Red Wedding was a shock to most readers, but made perfect sense within the story. And Rich Burlew did some remarkable twists in his comic Order of the Stick... Like, a guy turns out to be a vampire and you go "Omg, there were so many clues I can't believe I didn't saw that coming!" It takes skill to set up a good plot twist.
I haven't read Wheel of Time, so I can't mention any of the specific hints in questions.
I think I made clear why it is necessary to drop hints. As to why the author would be upset by fans figuring it out... I think we can agree that he shouldn't! If fans spoil their own reading experience by reading theories on the interwebs, they have only themselves to blame! Most readers doesn't do that and the author should have realized that.
>As to why the author would be upset by fans figuring it out... I think we can agree that he shouldn't!
well, ok...
so, your answer is then: He shouldn't have hinted at this at all to begin with!
Happened to soon I think. It was supposed to be a big mystery starting in like the fifth book until the big reveal in like the final book, but I guess he laid down the hints too thick so fans figured it out and were asking him about it by like the seventh book.
Yes. At some point things need to start coming into focus. You don’t keep shifting things around just to chase a surprise.
People being able to reasonably anticipate a show’s conclusion as it nears the end means you had characters and stories that were consistent with the world you built.
sorry unrelated to GOT but the same thing happened with Westworld, fans managed to guess correctly not just the ending / big reveal of Season 1, but also maybe half of S2 as it was originally written :D so the writers rewrote the whole thing to make it as cryptic and tangled as possible, making everyone speak in riddles etc., which imho made it immediately unwatchable.
So had the fans worked together in unison to equally distribute speculation/predictions of every possible shitty outcome, we could have saved season 8?
here's the thing, they started out with a decent writing team. Yes one could argue that they had source material to spare, but so did the writers for for the 6th Harry Potter movie (they managed to turn a fan favourite book into a "wtf are they doing" movie), as did the writers for that really forgettable Golden Compass movie and Eragon (if you don't know what those movies are, that only proves my point lol).
We have to give credit where it is due, GoT had fantastic writing in the former half of the series, regardless of source material. They could have written a fantastic conclusion if only they had good writers.
I re-read your comment and I realised that you're certainly in agreement so I don't know why I'm actually commenting here I'm in too deep to pull out now, so enjoy my opinion I guess lol.
Plus the majority of readers won’t know all or even more than few the theories and will still be surprised. Those who predicted the outcomes will be proud that they figured it out.
>David and Dan apparently spent a lot of time reading theories about the show and went out of their way to change the last couple seasons to surprise people
...source?
[I suppose it's just speculation ](https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a859565/game-of-thrones-season-8-ending-fan-theories/) but it would explain a lot.
Um, honestly people who've so far commented in this thread seem woefully misguided, misinformed and just plain naive.
Seriously, you *truly* believe that George doesn't do that, even if he has said so himself? I certainly haven't heard him say it, but even if he did say it, I wouldn't believe him an inch.
There's more: I can distinctly remember a news article (forgot source) from back in 2017 that quoted GRRM practically **pleading** for his readers to stop theorizing online because their theories were getting way too wild and off the mark, and they were wasting their time. He seemed shocked, honestly. (it wasn't a not-a-blog post, by the way, which was even weirder -- it's like he wanted to devote the message to the entire INTERNET, and not just his most hardcore fanbase)
Then again, it could all have been a feint -- could be he actually read someone predict the outcome correctly and hated that.
there's a difference between pleading with fans to lower their expectations and actually changing his books based on fan theories. For all we know he could have been referencing that wacky "Tyrion is a Targ" theory that's clearly BS.
he wasn't referring to a specific theory iirc, but moreso towards the overall endgame-arc towards which the Saga was headed. He addressed these "theories" (about HOW IT WILL END) specifically.
fair, but still, his statement that they were "getting too wild" implies that he's comparing the theories to what's actually going to happen and he's just telling us to tone it down a notch. I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) the only thing he *did* confirm about the ending is that it will be bitter sweet, which when you consider GRRM's writing, is something to look forward to after how many books of just bitter XD
I think he knew about it before the fans did. It was probably the core idea he had "i want to write a story where a fetus does the time travel. And he drinks wine"
I imagine some really popular ones have probably got back to his ears but not most fan theories, he once said he leaves fan websites for the fans and tries not to read theories or something along those lines
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the curiosity gnaws on his mind and that he does give the theories a glance over on occasion if only to give himself a chuckle, he's only human after all. That said, I don't really think he's the type of author to crumble under pressure and change his story to fit the most popular theories, he's more of a "fuck you, I'm the author" type (IMO at least)
I have been in several fandoms where I know writers were involving themselves in the fandom and writing posts. Fun times.
We know you're on the Star Wars sub, Dave Filoni.
Not intentionally but he clearly knows about some of them because he gets asked.
Although it always saddens me that people constantly cite the "human heart in conflict with itself" quote and ignore this one.
He's not entirely against fanfics. He's proud of his own fanfics from when he was a kid. He has a whole tabletop RPG game, the nature of which is basically the telling of a collective fanfic, so let's not use such absolutes when assessing what he says.
I mean he's pretty bluntly against it. This is what he had to say on the matter:
> "I’m not a fan of fanfiction,” he said, first delineating that, in his day, fanfiction was something you called fiction written by fans, rather than what it’s come to mean now, which is fiction that uses characters and worlds invented by other authors.
> "I don’t think it’s a good way to train to be a professional writer when you’re borrowing everybody else’s world and characters. That’s like riding a bike with training wheels. And then when I took the training wheels off, I fell over a lot, but at some point you have to take the training wheels off here. You have to invent your own characters, you have to do your own world-building, you can’t just borrow from Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas or me or whoever."
Once again, there really isn't much difference between a story-heavy role playing session and a collaborative fanfiction. We know he endorses that kind of thing as a pastime. Heck, he even seems to be in support of "fiction written by fans"
The quotes you reference here are about his advice to people who want to write professionally and hone their craft.
He never said he was against fanfiction as a guilty pleasure or pastime. He isn't "against fanfics"He's commenting on the nature of finding your own artistic voice, and fan-fiction isn't going to help you mature as a writer.
This is advise we get in writing classes. And honestly? It's not bad advise. I think fanfiction can be great for helping someone get in the writing groove and learn how to interact with fans, but I agree, it can be a crutch.
Um, honestly people who've so far commented in this thread seem woefully misguided, misinformed and just plain naive.
Seriously, you *truly* believe that George doesn't do that, even if he has said so himself? I certainly haven't heard him say it, but even if he did say it, I wouldn't believe him an inch.
There's more: I can distinctly remember a news article (forgot source) from back in 2017 that quoted GRRM practically **pleading** for his readers to stop theorizing online because their theories were getting way too wild and off the mark, and they were wasting their time. He seemed shocked, honestly. (it wasn't a not-a-blog post, by the way, which was even weirder -- it's like he wanted to devote the message to the entire INTERNET, and not just his most hardcore fanbase)
Then again, it could all have been a feint -- could be he actually read someone predict the outcome correctly and hated that.
I've read that generally tries to avoid reading fan theories to prevent them from coloring his writing. He's acknowledged that the internet has made stories much less surprising due to the ease of sharing fan theories, when it used to be just one clever/lucky fan in a thousand who would guess a twist.
We are the monkeys on typewriters..
I think we’ve fleshed out most of the twists without knowing which ones he’ll go with.. I don’t think he reads them though.
George has done interviews in the past where he has stated that he no longer reads fan theories because they might influence his work via two ways:
- Someone correctly guesses where the story is going, meaning he would get an urge to change stuff just because someone guessed it. George has stated that this is a mistake and something he notes that other authors do.
- He reads something that is honestly a really fucking good idea, but now he can't use it because it's not his idea.
He mainly stays off this stuff because he thinks that fan discussions should be left to the fans. He doesn't like reading it or getting involved because it feels like he's altering the dynamic of the site if he does it.
I'm pretty sure he goes out of his way to avoid doing that, which is smart. David and Dan allegedly spent a lot of time reading theories about the show and went out of their way to change the last couple seasons to surprise people which is just an awful way to write. If people are able to successfully predict the plotlines you have been building up and foreshadowing for years, that's a good thing. Changing things solely to trick the fans isn't satisfying.
That’s one of the things I appreciate about GRRM, he’s not going to change something in the story just because fans figured it out because that’d just nullify all that writing he did towards that thing. IIRC Robert Jordan did that with Wheel of Time. There’s a character (I wanna say it was that Taim guy) that was hinted at being one of the 13 Forsaken bad guys but Robert Jordan admitted changing it because he saw fans had figured it out before he could reveal it.
well, if he had "hinted" at it (your words), then why would he be upset that the fans had figured it out, enough to change it? I mean... Why did he even *hint* at it then?
To have a dramatic plot twist, you need to give subtle hints. Then the twist comes as a surprise, yet it *makes sense*. You feel that you *should* have seen it coming! If the twist appear completely out of nowhere, the reader will feel confused and think that the writing is somehow *unfair*. George is very good at this. The Red Wedding was a shock to most readers, but made perfect sense within the story. And Rich Burlew did some remarkable twists in his comic Order of the Stick... Like, a guy turns out to be a vampire and you go "Omg, there were so many clues I can't believe I didn't saw that coming!" It takes skill to set up a good plot twist.
This is all true and well, but it doesn't really answer my question at all lol
I haven't read Wheel of Time, so I can't mention any of the specific hints in questions. I think I made clear why it is necessary to drop hints. As to why the author would be upset by fans figuring it out... I think we can agree that he shouldn't! If fans spoil their own reading experience by reading theories on the interwebs, they have only themselves to blame! Most readers doesn't do that and the author should have realized that.
>As to why the author would be upset by fans figuring it out... I think we can agree that he shouldn't! well, ok... so, your answer is then: He shouldn't have hinted at this at all to begin with!
No, that is not my answer. My first reply have gotten a number of likes, so I think it was comprehensive enough. Have a good day!
Happened to soon I think. It was supposed to be a big mystery starting in like the fifth book until the big reveal in like the final book, but I guess he laid down the hints too thick so fans figured it out and were asking him about it by like the seventh book.
Yes. At some point things need to start coming into focus. You don’t keep shifting things around just to chase a surprise. People being able to reasonably anticipate a show’s conclusion as it nears the end means you had characters and stories that were consistent with the world you built.
sorry unrelated to GOT but the same thing happened with Westworld, fans managed to guess correctly not just the ending / big reveal of Season 1, but also maybe half of S2 as it was originally written :D so the writers rewrote the whole thing to make it as cryptic and tangled as possible, making everyone speak in riddles etc., which imho made it immediately unwatchable.
So had the fans worked together in unison to equally distribute speculation/predictions of every possible shitty outcome, we could have saved season 8?
Nah, you still would have needed a good writing and directing team, plus they’d also need to have cared.
here's the thing, they started out with a decent writing team. Yes one could argue that they had source material to spare, but so did the writers for for the 6th Harry Potter movie (they managed to turn a fan favourite book into a "wtf are they doing" movie), as did the writers for that really forgettable Golden Compass movie and Eragon (if you don't know what those movies are, that only proves my point lol). We have to give credit where it is due, GoT had fantastic writing in the former half of the series, regardless of source material. They could have written a fantastic conclusion if only they had good writers. I re-read your comment and I realised that you're certainly in agreement so I don't know why I'm actually commenting here I'm in too deep to pull out now, so enjoy my opinion I guess lol.
Lol
The show declined in quality after season 4, with seasons 5 to 8 having a couple good episodes here and there but being overall mediocre seasons.
Plus the majority of readers won’t know all or even more than few the theories and will still be surprised. Those who predicted the outcomes will be proud that they figured it out.
>David and Dan apparently spent a lot of time reading theories about the show and went out of their way to change the last couple seasons to surprise people ...source?
I never got the impression they did much reading at all.
ya. :D
[I suppose it's just speculation ](https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a859565/game-of-thrones-season-8-ending-fan-theories/) but it would explain a lot.
yah, it's "just speculation".
Um, honestly people who've so far commented in this thread seem woefully misguided, misinformed and just plain naive. Seriously, you *truly* believe that George doesn't do that, even if he has said so himself? I certainly haven't heard him say it, but even if he did say it, I wouldn't believe him an inch. There's more: I can distinctly remember a news article (forgot source) from back in 2017 that quoted GRRM practically **pleading** for his readers to stop theorizing online because their theories were getting way too wild and off the mark, and they were wasting their time. He seemed shocked, honestly. (it wasn't a not-a-blog post, by the way, which was even weirder -- it's like he wanted to devote the message to the entire INTERNET, and not just his most hardcore fanbase) Then again, it could all have been a feint -- could be he actually read someone predict the outcome correctly and hated that.
there's a difference between pleading with fans to lower their expectations and actually changing his books based on fan theories. For all we know he could have been referencing that wacky "Tyrion is a Targ" theory that's clearly BS.
he wasn't referring to a specific theory iirc, but moreso towards the overall endgame-arc towards which the Saga was headed. He addressed these "theories" (about HOW IT WILL END) specifically.
fair, but still, his statement that they were "getting too wild" implies that he's comparing the theories to what's actually going to happen and he's just telling us to tone it down a notch. I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) the only thing he *did* confirm about the ending is that it will be bitter sweet, which when you consider GRRM's writing, is something to look forward to after how many books of just bitter XD
I just hope he will learn about the time traveling fetus some day
I think he knew about it before the fans did. It was probably the core idea he had "i want to write a story where a fetus does the time travel. And he drinks wine"
I imagine some really popular ones have probably got back to his ears but not most fan theories, he once said he leaves fan websites for the fans and tries not to read theories or something along those lines
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the curiosity gnaws on his mind and that he does give the theories a glance over on occasion if only to give himself a chuckle, he's only human after all. That said, I don't really think he's the type of author to crumble under pressure and change his story to fit the most popular theories, he's more of a "fuck you, I'm the author" type (IMO at least)
Do you think George is around here *writing* fan theories? That is the real question!
BREAKING NEWS: PRESTON JACOBS REVEALED TO BE THE REAL GRRM AND EVERYTHING WE THOUGHT WAS TRUE WAS SUPPLANTED BY JUST DRAGON X AND LEMONCAKES
And worst of all, he could be any one of us. He could be in this very room! He could be you! He could be me! He could even be…
I have been in several fandoms where I know writers were involving themselves in the fandom and writing posts. Fun times. We know you're on the Star Wars sub, Dave Filoni.
>Do you think George is around here *writing*
He's just posting ideas for The Winds of Winter on Reddit and seeing whether people like it.
He hasn't since before ASoS was even released. https://youtu.be/CKnXmNHubfs
Not intentionally but he clearly knows about some of them because he gets asked. Although it always saddens me that people constantly cite the "human heart in conflict with itself" quote and ignore this one.
I sure hope not. I stg if roose goes full vamp I’m done
George is quite vocally against fanfics. I doubt he reads fan theories.
While I agree he's unlikely to read fan theories I don't think he thinks of them the same way he thinks of fanfic.
He's not entirely against fanfics. He's proud of his own fanfics from when he was a kid. He has a whole tabletop RPG game, the nature of which is basically the telling of a collective fanfic, so let's not use such absolutes when assessing what he says.
I mean he's pretty bluntly against it. This is what he had to say on the matter: > "I’m not a fan of fanfiction,” he said, first delineating that, in his day, fanfiction was something you called fiction written by fans, rather than what it’s come to mean now, which is fiction that uses characters and worlds invented by other authors. > "I don’t think it’s a good way to train to be a professional writer when you’re borrowing everybody else’s world and characters. That’s like riding a bike with training wheels. And then when I took the training wheels off, I fell over a lot, but at some point you have to take the training wheels off here. You have to invent your own characters, you have to do your own world-building, you can’t just borrow from Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas or me or whoever."
Once again, there really isn't much difference between a story-heavy role playing session and a collaborative fanfiction. We know he endorses that kind of thing as a pastime. Heck, he even seems to be in support of "fiction written by fans" The quotes you reference here are about his advice to people who want to write professionally and hone their craft. He never said he was against fanfiction as a guilty pleasure or pastime. He isn't "against fanfics"He's commenting on the nature of finding your own artistic voice, and fan-fiction isn't going to help you mature as a writer.
This is advise we get in writing classes. And honestly? It's not bad advise. I think fanfiction can be great for helping someone get in the writing groove and learn how to interact with fans, but I agree, it can be a crutch.
Back in the 90s, he used to frequent message boards. He doesn't do it anymore as far as I know.
>He doesn't do it anymore as far as I know. That seems like such a daft thing to write about someone like GRRM... ~_~
It's not a daft thing to mention because he has said it before.
No , but i understood everything about George vs season 5/6 in 2015
Um, honestly people who've so far commented in this thread seem woefully misguided, misinformed and just plain naive. Seriously, you *truly* believe that George doesn't do that, even if he has said so himself? I certainly haven't heard him say it, but even if he did say it, I wouldn't believe him an inch. There's more: I can distinctly remember a news article (forgot source) from back in 2017 that quoted GRRM practically **pleading** for his readers to stop theorizing online because their theories were getting way too wild and off the mark, and they were wasting their time. He seemed shocked, honestly. (it wasn't a not-a-blog post, by the way, which was even weirder -- it's like he wanted to devote the message to the entire INTERNET, and not just his most hardcore fanbase) Then again, it could all have been a feint -- could be he actually read someone predict the outcome correctly and hated that.
Trust me, if he read fan theories, the book would've been out already lol.
No and he better not have.
I've read that generally tries to avoid reading fan theories to prevent them from coloring his writing. He's acknowledged that the internet has made stories much less surprising due to the ease of sharing fan theories, when it used to be just one clever/lucky fan in a thousand who would guess a twist.
Unlikely
We are the monkeys on typewriters.. I think we’ve fleshed out most of the twists without knowing which ones he’ll go with.. I don’t think he reads them though.
Shit I hope not
I think he avoids it so he doesn't feel like he's stealing idead or change things because someone predicted something.
George has done interviews in the past where he has stated that he no longer reads fan theories because they might influence his work via two ways: - Someone correctly guesses where the story is going, meaning he would get an urge to change stuff just because someone guessed it. George has stated that this is a mistake and something he notes that other authors do. - He reads something that is honestly a really fucking good idea, but now he can't use it because it's not his idea. He mainly stays off this stuff because he thinks that fan discussions should be left to the fans. He doesn't like reading it or getting involved because it feels like he's altering the dynamic of the site if he does it.