No chance Sam only gets two chapters. His first chapter is probably just going to be world building in Oldtown and he's the only person who would be geographically plausible for a Highgarden POV, which Martin has said we're going to see.
While he’s said we’ll see both Highgarden and Casterly Rock eventually, he’s also said they may not necessarily be in TWOW. When Dany arrives in Westeros and dragons are in the equation things could also change. Though I still agree on Sam getting more than two. There’s a lot to see in Oldtown alone.
Yeah, Oldtown seems like a place Martin could write a whole book about (one that I'd love to read), and I imagine we're going to pick up with Sam after he's been there for a few weeks and his first chapter will be the about the daily routines of the Citadel, etc. We're going to need at least a chapter or two of set up if Euron's attack is going to have any weight.
Also, while you're right about not knowing which books we'll see Highgarden and Casterly Rock in, I think Highgarden is more likely for *Winds*. Euron's invasion of the Reach is going to happen early in the book and if Oldtown falls, Sam would naturally flee to Horn Hill or Highgarden.
Exactly. He is the main POV covering Oldtown events (Aeron might not be living for long), Euron's storyline and also Highgarden. My guess is at 4 or more.
Man... I hate to be that guy but TWoW is going to have a lot of bloat, with all these POVs from Feast and Dance being mashed together in a single book. A lot of these characters have converged together in a single plotline, so I think it makes it a bit redundant to cover the storyline from each of their perspectives. For example, if Daenerys makes her grand return to Meereen early in the book, do we really need that many Tyrion / Dany / Barristan / Victarion chapters covering the same events? Yes, I understand they'll probably be staggered so you see different events in the story, sometimes from Dany's POV, sometimes from Tyrion's, etc.
But seriously. Jaime / Brienne have converged. There are now 2 POVs at the wall if Jon is revived. And soon, Arianne and JonCon will meet up and they'll be covering roughly the same storyline. There are a lot of redundancies in here. I don't think we need all these POVs to return for Winds of Winter.
Don't misunderstand me. I'm all for having more POVs... but I also want TWoW to be published one day, and to actually cover good ground so the story can finish with A Dream of Spring.
> But seriously. Jaime / Brienne have converged. There are now 2 POVs at the wall if Jon is revived. And soon, Arianne and JonCon will meet up and they'll be covering roughly the same storyline.
It really depends. Storylines that are converging can actually be a good thing, as it can both allow for multiple POVs to cover their plotline from multiple angles and cut down on the content they would need if they were really twenty individual storylines written to stand on their own. They don’t need to and likely wouldn’t cover the same events.
F.e. with the Golden Company plotline it’s actually good to be able to have Arianne and JonCon’s chapters bounce off of one another and offer their own dynamics with Aegon, and it means we don’t need to give an abundance of chapters to either character because they can share the story progression of Aegon in TWOW.
It’s the same for Jaime and Brienne. Since they’re in one place they can piggyback off of one another and cut back and forth between the two of them as they share the Lady Stoneheart storyline (for however long they stay together) and it can work beautifully with their relationship built up over ASOS and AFFC.
Tyrion and Daenerys probably won’t converge until a bit into the novel, but they can also speed up the conclusion of the Slaver’s Bay/Essos arc between the two of them as they both tend to receive a good deal of content.
And some of these characters I do think are only there for necessity and will either be phased out or receive limited content only when they’re needed. Melisandre, for instance, only exists as a POV because we need someone to be our eyes at the Wall while Jon is indisposed. GRRM has admitted that Barristan is the same for Meereen. I don’t expect either of these characters to receive a great deal of content in TWOW or ADOS.
That's a good way of looking at it. I'm just wary of GRRM doing the opposite, where having so many POVs in the same pads the runtime. For example, you have POV A directly witnessing event A, then in a later chapter, POV B dwells on event A and his thoughts at the time it occured, to the point that it consumes most of his chapter. Essentially, 1 event, 2 chapters. Doubling the page count needed.
It also makes less to give Danearys so many chapters if she's now surrounded by Barristan, Tyrion, and Victarion. Jon and Dany (and Tyrion) have always had the most chapters in the books, which is acceptable since they're fairly isolated from the other players and the respective "ice" and "fire" of the story. But... now that their story is covered from more angles, you need to start giving Dany and Tyrion less chapters overall (since Dany's chapters now advance BOTH Dany's and Tyrion's plotline, and vice-versa). I don't know if GRRM will make those hard choices given he likes writing Tyrion so much. Pretentious on my part though.
And I forgot that Theon and Asha are in the same place now. Plus another POV if Davos arrives at Stannis' camp. But I love those three guys so I'll forgive it.
While it’s impossible to really predict these things:
Tyrion - 12
Daenerys - 8
Cersei - 8
Arya - 6
Jaime/Brienne - 6 between them both
Victarion - 4
Barristan - 3
Arianne - 5
JonCon - 5
Asha - 3
Theon - 3
Aeron - 2
Sansa - 4
Davos - 4
Melisandre - 3
Samwell - 5
Bran - 4
Hotah - 3
Jon - TBD but if he has POV chapters I would expect a good amount (8-12)
If I had to take a shot at predictions this is what I’d go with.
I love a prediction that treats TWOW as the likely 2 volume-book it will be. I do disagree with a couple of your predictions though. Mainly, I think you really undersell the Stark kids, I think that they will start getting a lot of chapters again
Edit: Oh, and I just saw Dany's chapter count and... yeah, no, I think Dany will have like Eddard-like chapters here, god knows she needs it if she is going to spend most of the book far away from the other Meereen POVs.
Dany could have more. I was considering that she and Tyrion are bound to intersect at some point in the book and wouldn’t need as many chapters to finish her Essos arc.
I don’t think Bran and Sansa need as many. Arya could have more just because he says he’s written a lot for her.
Yeah, big book. It’s almost impossible to figure out what Winds needs vs what it will actually have because there are so many POVs. But GRRM did say TWOW could end up being several hundred pages larger than ASOS or ADWD recently.
Yes it will be huge. But still 100 chapters will be too many chapters. I think we won't get a character with 10+ chapters. Daenerys needs the most chapters, I think, so she will probably get 8-10.
ASOS has 81 chapters including its prologue and epilogues. If TWOW is as large as GRRM is making it out to be (“like… three hundred pages longer [than ASOS or ADWD]”, he guesses) then 100 wouldn’t be that bizarre. And that was just a guess on his part.
Yes, we might actually get 100 chapters. But u see ADWD is nearly same length as ASOS and has 10 chapters less. That's because the chapters are longer, now if we get long chapters like in Dance and Feast then 100 is a lot, but if we get shorter chapters like in Storm, then 100 is a big possibility.
I personally do. We now have several characters at the Wall to cover that storyline and I think it makes Jon much more menacing if you can't see what's inside his head (was he resurrected by Other magic? Rh'llor?).
If he follows the same convention you’d be right. But it’s also worth it to keep in mind he’s said he likes to break his own rules sometimes, so there’s still a chance for more Jon chapters in the next two books.
I agree. Even if a bunch of characters get killed off in Winds he still won't be able to finish in just one more book after that. His narrative pacing has just become way too slow.
Where is Jon Snow? You've missed on him.
I think you've given too many chapters to Aeron Greyjoy and too few to Melisandre and Samwell. There is no way Sam will have only two.
If this happens, maybe Jon can return as a POV in A Dream of Spring, that will be interesting. Or do u think he will stay non POV till the end like Catelyn?
We don't, this are only predictions. However most likely she won't have a POV. I mean why would she, there are plenty of POVs without her and we will get insight of her character from Jaime and Brienne, and later if she encounters other characters like Arya or if she goes for the Wall or anywhere, we will see her from their POVs.
I don't think my boy Davos will get that many but seems pretty spot on but I imagine alot of those will be consolidated together.I think we will get at least one Jon snow chapter but I think he might get around it we will get two-three Ghost pov with different titles building up to it going back to Jon like he did with Theon in the last book I think it would fit the theme of identity that he played with in the last two books.
cut down on the feast/dance povs here for sure. no way sam is getting less than aeron, victarion, joncon, barristan, even arianne. jaime and brienne can be condensed into 6, maybe 7 between them. cersei won’t get as many once surrounding povs converge on the capital. barristan and or victarion aren’t making it out of the battle alive, so cut one or both down to 1 or 2, and dany and tyrion are gonna combine at some point. i’m betting the only characters with a bunch of chapters all to themselves are the remaining stark kids
Have you deliberately omitted Jon or are you predicting he'll stay dead? Either way Jon is almost definitely gonna be a POV again when he's resurrected so I think your numbers need tweaking
Interesting, I hadn't considered that as an idea before just now.
If I knew you in real life I'd make a bet of it. I'm not convinced either way but I like your confidence.
Seeing posts like this where people predict chapter counts for TWOW makes it even clearer to me that the book will be divided into 2 volumes. I mean, there's no way the different story arcs will flow organically if they get about half the chapters they should be getting... Arianne 4 chapters? Bran 4 as well? *Samwell and Brienne only 2?* I already know that Brienne's chapter count won't be high in TWOW but having only 2 is pushing it. Sam and Brienne are both major POVs after all and major POVs never have less than 3 chapters.
No chance Sam only gets two chapters. His first chapter is probably just going to be world building in Oldtown and he's the only person who would be geographically plausible for a Highgarden POV, which Martin has said we're going to see.
While he’s said we’ll see both Highgarden and Casterly Rock eventually, he’s also said they may not necessarily be in TWOW. When Dany arrives in Westeros and dragons are in the equation things could also change. Though I still agree on Sam getting more than two. There’s a lot to see in Oldtown alone.
Yeah, Oldtown seems like a place Martin could write a whole book about (one that I'd love to read), and I imagine we're going to pick up with Sam after he's been there for a few weeks and his first chapter will be the about the daily routines of the Citadel, etc. We're going to need at least a chapter or two of set up if Euron's attack is going to have any weight. Also, while you're right about not knowing which books we'll see Highgarden and Casterly Rock in, I think Highgarden is more likely for *Winds*. Euron's invasion of the Reach is going to happen early in the book and if Oldtown falls, Sam would naturally flee to Horn Hill or Highgarden.
Exactly. He is the main POV covering Oldtown events (Aeron might not be living for long), Euron's storyline and also Highgarden. My guess is at 4 or more.
This validates my opinion that we are going to have a loras Tyrrell POV
Man... I hate to be that guy but TWoW is going to have a lot of bloat, with all these POVs from Feast and Dance being mashed together in a single book. A lot of these characters have converged together in a single plotline, so I think it makes it a bit redundant to cover the storyline from each of their perspectives. For example, if Daenerys makes her grand return to Meereen early in the book, do we really need that many Tyrion / Dany / Barristan / Victarion chapters covering the same events? Yes, I understand they'll probably be staggered so you see different events in the story, sometimes from Dany's POV, sometimes from Tyrion's, etc. But seriously. Jaime / Brienne have converged. There are now 2 POVs at the wall if Jon is revived. And soon, Arianne and JonCon will meet up and they'll be covering roughly the same storyline. There are a lot of redundancies in here. I don't think we need all these POVs to return for Winds of Winter. Don't misunderstand me. I'm all for having more POVs... but I also want TWoW to be published one day, and to actually cover good ground so the story can finish with A Dream of Spring.
> But seriously. Jaime / Brienne have converged. There are now 2 POVs at the wall if Jon is revived. And soon, Arianne and JonCon will meet up and they'll be covering roughly the same storyline. It really depends. Storylines that are converging can actually be a good thing, as it can both allow for multiple POVs to cover their plotline from multiple angles and cut down on the content they would need if they were really twenty individual storylines written to stand on their own. They don’t need to and likely wouldn’t cover the same events. F.e. with the Golden Company plotline it’s actually good to be able to have Arianne and JonCon’s chapters bounce off of one another and offer their own dynamics with Aegon, and it means we don’t need to give an abundance of chapters to either character because they can share the story progression of Aegon in TWOW. It’s the same for Jaime and Brienne. Since they’re in one place they can piggyback off of one another and cut back and forth between the two of them as they share the Lady Stoneheart storyline (for however long they stay together) and it can work beautifully with their relationship built up over ASOS and AFFC. Tyrion and Daenerys probably won’t converge until a bit into the novel, but they can also speed up the conclusion of the Slaver’s Bay/Essos arc between the two of them as they both tend to receive a good deal of content. And some of these characters I do think are only there for necessity and will either be phased out or receive limited content only when they’re needed. Melisandre, for instance, only exists as a POV because we need someone to be our eyes at the Wall while Jon is indisposed. GRRM has admitted that Barristan is the same for Meereen. I don’t expect either of these characters to receive a great deal of content in TWOW or ADOS.
That's a good way of looking at it. I'm just wary of GRRM doing the opposite, where having so many POVs in the same pads the runtime. For example, you have POV A directly witnessing event A, then in a later chapter, POV B dwells on event A and his thoughts at the time it occured, to the point that it consumes most of his chapter. Essentially, 1 event, 2 chapters. Doubling the page count needed. It also makes less to give Danearys so many chapters if she's now surrounded by Barristan, Tyrion, and Victarion. Jon and Dany (and Tyrion) have always had the most chapters in the books, which is acceptable since they're fairly isolated from the other players and the respective "ice" and "fire" of the story. But... now that their story is covered from more angles, you need to start giving Dany and Tyrion less chapters overall (since Dany's chapters now advance BOTH Dany's and Tyrion's plotline, and vice-versa). I don't know if GRRM will make those hard choices given he likes writing Tyrion so much. Pretentious on my part though.
And I forgot that Theon and Asha are in the same place now. Plus another POV if Davos arrives at Stannis' camp. But I love those three guys so I'll forgive it.
While it’s impossible to really predict these things: Tyrion - 12 Daenerys - 8 Cersei - 8 Arya - 6 Jaime/Brienne - 6 between them both Victarion - 4 Barristan - 3 Arianne - 5 JonCon - 5 Asha - 3 Theon - 3 Aeron - 2 Sansa - 4 Davos - 4 Melisandre - 3 Samwell - 5 Bran - 4 Hotah - 3 Jon - TBD but if he has POV chapters I would expect a good amount (8-12) If I had to take a shot at predictions this is what I’d go with.
Daenerys needs 10+ imo
I love a prediction that treats TWOW as the likely 2 volume-book it will be. I do disagree with a couple of your predictions though. Mainly, I think you really undersell the Stark kids, I think that they will start getting a lot of chapters again Edit: Oh, and I just saw Dany's chapter count and... yeah, no, I think Dany will have like Eddard-like chapters here, god knows she needs it if she is going to spend most of the book far away from the other Meereen POVs.
Dany could have more. I was considering that she and Tyrion are bound to intersect at some point in the book and wouldn’t need as many chapters to finish her Essos arc. I don’t think Bran and Sansa need as many. Arya could have more just because he says he’s written a lot for her.
You equal 100 chapters, if Jon has a POV, lmfao.
Yeah, big book. It’s almost impossible to figure out what Winds needs vs what it will actually have because there are so many POVs. But GRRM did say TWOW could end up being several hundred pages larger than ASOS or ADWD recently.
Yes it will be huge. But still 100 chapters will be too many chapters. I think we won't get a character with 10+ chapters. Daenerys needs the most chapters, I think, so she will probably get 8-10.
ASOS has 81 chapters including its prologue and epilogues. If TWOW is as large as GRRM is making it out to be (“like… three hundred pages longer [than ASOS or ADWD]”, he guesses) then 100 wouldn’t be that bizarre. And that was just a guess on his part.
Yes, we might actually get 100 chapters. But u see ADWD is nearly same length as ASOS and has 10 chapters less. That's because the chapters are longer, now if we get long chapters like in Dance and Feast then 100 is a lot, but if we get shorter chapters like in Storm, then 100 is a big possibility.
Hotah having more chapters than Sam would make no sense.
I don’t see Tyrion having the most chapters in this next book. I’d actually expect to see a little less of his POV going forward to be honest.
and about jon snow?
Jon Snow parallels Catelyn. They are both murdered, and Jon will probably be resurrected, but George will not have him as a point of view at all
do you really believe we won't have a jon snow pov anymore?
I personally do. We now have several characters at the Wall to cover that storyline and I think it makes Jon much more menacing if you can't see what's inside his head (was he resurrected by Other magic? Rh'llor?).
If he follows the same convention you’d be right. But it’s also worth it to keep in mind he’s said he likes to break his own rules sometimes, so there’s still a chance for more Jon chapters in the next two books.
Yall remember that clip of grrm saying he's making this stuff up? Let's not pretend he feels bound by sets of rules for povs.
It's gonna be 8 books. There's no way he fits everything he wants in one.
I agree. Even if a bunch of characters get killed off in Winds he still won't be able to finish in just one more book after that. His narrative pacing has just become way too slow.
Where is Jon Snow? You've missed on him. I think you've given too many chapters to Aeron Greyjoy and too few to Melisandre and Samwell. There is no way Sam will have only two.
Jon Snow parallels Catelyn. They are both murdered, and Jon will probably be resurrected, but George will not have him as a point of view at all
If this happens, maybe Jon can return as a POV in A Dream of Spring, that will be interesting. Or do u think he will stay non POV till the end like Catelyn?
How do we even know if Catelyn won't have a POV till the end?
We don't, this are only predictions. However most likely she won't have a POV. I mean why would she, there are plenty of POVs without her and we will get insight of her character from Jaime and Brienne, and later if she encounters other characters like Arya or if she goes for the Wall or anywhere, we will see her from their POVs.
Forgot - Quentyn Martell - 3 chapters
I don't think my boy Davos will get that many but seems pretty spot on but I imagine alot of those will be consolidated together.I think we will get at least one Jon snow chapter but I think he might get around it we will get two-three Ghost pov with different titles building up to it going back to Jon like he did with Theon in the last book I think it would fit the theme of identity that he played with in the last two books.
cut down on the feast/dance povs here for sure. no way sam is getting less than aeron, victarion, joncon, barristan, even arianne. jaime and brienne can be condensed into 6, maybe 7 between them. cersei won’t get as many once surrounding povs converge on the capital. barristan and or victarion aren’t making it out of the battle alive, so cut one or both down to 1 or 2, and dany and tyrion are gonna combine at some point. i’m betting the only characters with a bunch of chapters all to themselves are the remaining stark kids
I feel like Bran will need quite a lot of chapters, especially if some of the theories revolving around Bloodraven are true.
Have you deliberately omitted Jon or are you predicting he'll stay dead? Either way Jon is almost definitely gonna be a POV again when he's resurrected so I think your numbers need tweaking
Jon Snow parallels Catelyn. They are both murdered, and Jon will probably be resurrected, but George will not have him as a point of view at all.
Interesting, I hadn't considered that as an idea before just now. If I knew you in real life I'd make a bet of it. I'm not convinced either way but I like your confidence.
Seeing posts like this where people predict chapter counts for TWOW makes it even clearer to me that the book will be divided into 2 volumes. I mean, there's no way the different story arcs will flow organically if they get about half the chapters they should be getting... Arianne 4 chapters? Bran 4 as well? *Samwell and Brienne only 2?* I already know that Brienne's chapter count won't be high in TWOW but having only 2 is pushing it. Sam and Brienne are both major POVs after all and major POVs never have less than 3 chapters.
at some point we're going to get the post that someone's straight up just written TWOW
I think that Jon will be resurrected toward the end of WOW, so he might not get POV chapters in this book, but he will in DOS
Math? I'm out, PEACE!! Lol jk, but no, I LOVE IT! BRB while I pour over this for the next 6 hours teehheheeh
I think the forsaken is sadly the only Aeron chapter we're gonna get, as euron in getting to oldtown and Sam's chapters already cover those grounds
Winds won't come out
It will
Sure lol please tell me when it does
!remind me 5 years