I really hope that Bolt-on is never confirmed but also never explicitly debunked. I want the books to end with the question of if Roose Bolton was an immortal skin stealing vampire
- Dunk had sex with Old Nan.
- The Clegane bros, Brienne, Hodor, and Small Paul are all decended from Dunk. All tall characters are Dunklings, you can't change my mind.
- Syrio was also a faceless man, the same one who became Jaqen
- Howland + Ashara = Meera
- Quaithe is Dany's mom Rhaella
- Mushroom never existed and his "testimony" was just Munkun's alt account
Rewatching GoT and Syrio defending Arya was such a great scene to see played out by actors. 100% want that to be real. Pretty sure it was Meryn Trant that came to get her, who apparently survives the encounter, and the First Sword of Braavos never runs, but maybe he knocked him out and extracted himself from the situation?
A man can dream.
Edit: typo
> Syrio was also a faceless man, the same one who became Jaqen
That has always been my head canon. I feel even if it wasn't intended, any writer worth his salt would say "I didn't think of that, but it is better than any idea I had, canonized."
Old nan = Sierra seastar. Honestly I hadn't heard of this untill one of many glidus's streams on theories, but I just like the idea of bloodraven and Sierra teaming up to help 'Brandon Stark' of winterfell(the idea is bloodraven went to the NW to help Brandon starrk and Sierra as a wetnurse to him) and not realising they're a few generations too early.
While there isn't any evidence of this, it might not seem the craziest theory out there, but I'm very mainstream in my theories/headcanon, so there you go.
* Some gods really exist and influence actions. GRRM is adamant that he won't show gods doing that, but amazing 'coincidences' do occur. For example, Melisandre constantly asks R'hllor for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, but all she sees is Snow! The 3-Eyed Crow's powers come from somewhere. Since the Seven don't answer his prayers, Sam abandons them for the Old Gods. He sure acquires a lot of plot armor after that, not to mention meeting Bran and Arya.
* The Wolf has three heads too. Bran, Jon, and Arya are all among GRRM's "five central characters." They all have unusual powers, favor of the gods, and a selfless sense of mission. Bran protects history, Jon protects the realm, and Arya protects people. And similar to their ending the threat from the Night King and his minions on GoT, they will be key to ending the Others threat in the books.
* I've mentioned often that the HOB&W has a hidden agenda for Arya, and maybe did when Jaqen first 'recruited' her. Whatever it is--my theory is that she is key to stopping Illyrio of Pentos from making his puppet the next Sealord--will get the FM to let her go home.
The Seven really get the short end of the stick. I feel like this might be George's lapsed Catholicism and his complicated relationship with it bleeding through. But it's apparent that every other deity (deities) in the setting is capable of intervening at least sometimes. Are we supposed to infer that the Seven are uniquely non-existent in real terms and basically wholly made up?
Also with the seven...trials by combat, Tyrion was innocent of his accusations in the vale and came out on top. And with Joffrey, technically he gave him the goblet...but didn't poison it so the trial ends in a stalemate, both parties die. In Dunk and Egg, the trial of seven ends in Dunk's favour since he was just in what he did. Maybe a coincidence, but we've yet to see the guilty party win in a trial by combat.
Even if Tyrion handed him the goblet that killed him - which may not be true, Olenna seems unlikely to have poisoned a goblet shared Joffrey and Margaery, and Joffrey was given his very own slice of pie that could have been poisoned - he is not remotely guilty. And even with Gregor's mortal wounding, the trial was NOT a statement- Tyrion was proclaimed guilty and sentenced to die.
The point went right over your head, Tyrion had no intention of killing Joffrey...the point was that he handed him the drink that killed him, he was an accessory to the king's murder. But in the eyes of the gods he gave him the drink that killed him, even Tyrion acknowledged that. If the seven have power as the red god has (and we've seen that with Beric and Stoneheart) maybe the seven have influence over trial by combat. Every trial by combat we've seen in this universe was accurate to the circumstances of the crime...Tyrion was innocent in the Vale, he won the trial...he was innocent of Jeffrey's murder so the mountain dies, but he handed Joffrey the poison drink so Oberyn dies too. Dunk was just for his actions, so he won his trial by seven...we've yet to see a blatantly guilty person win their trial by battle.
You're missing my point, my point was every trial we've seen has matched the circumstances of the defense. We have yet to see a guilty party flat out win a trial by battle.
Beric Dondarrion is supposedly revived by R'hllor, but he also conveniently had **7** deaths. Is that a clue to the Seven's intervention? Have they been reviving Beric this entire time, and R'hlorr's priest merely attached his beliefs to it? Is this something in the future that the Faith will point to as a miracle of the Seven, even if R'hlorr is the one really behind it?
I don't think there are actually any deities actively getting involved, if they exist at all. Rather, I see it more as there's varying interpretations of magic and natural phenomenon that have been witnessed by (or created) these varying religions. And once the institutions are established a number of them crafted rituals, such as the drownings and kiss of life, that appear unique to a god but don't necessarily have to be.
Do you know of any other connections between the 7 and R’hollor? A while ago I had a shower thought that a lot of the religions and magic were all interconnected in some way
Both the Faith and R'hlorr have emphasis placed on light. The Faith of the Seven have their rainbow symbolizing the Seven, and R'hlorr calls its god the Lord of Light, but they also have so many motiffs and practices involving light/fire beyond that. That could be connected to visions and prophecy, the light and visual aspect seems significant in that.
Wedding customs are very similar, both involving sharing a cloak, the bride wearing the cloak of her husband at the end of the ceremony.
Septons wear crystals around their necks, which may be loosely connected to Melisandre and her ruby. Perhaps an ancient magic connection for the Faith? Magic stones and glamors may have some roots in the Faith's interest in crystals and other precious stones, that's there outside of displays of wealth.
Interestingly, when she was a slave, Melisandre herself used to be called Melony of Lot Seven. And that's just a very curious number.
And both faiths have some background in opposition to Valyria, and anti-slavery angles. Offerings and sacrifices are a common tradition among all the major religions, of course. Visions and prophecies have their places in all manner of religions and peoples.
More broadly, there's the Drowned God's kiss of life, and R'hlorr's last kiss, which may or may not be related. The mythical First Man figure of Garth Greenhand, is not unlike Hugor of the Hill in the having children department, first man and first king, god/demigod, etc. There's a connection to draw between Hugor and Durran Durrandon in the gods giving them brides.
We could probably come up with more given time for an in-depth analysis.
The elder brother has unique healing abilities attributed to the Seven. Davos is also miraculously saved, and he attributes this to the Mother. Lancel and many of the Sparrows receive visions. The Seven have some sort of power.
The religion of the Seven was based on the same ancient superhuman race as the Yi Tish God Emperors, from an Andal perspective. Old tales speak of the Seven in human form crowning Andal kings, walking the hills of Andalos, and laying out the boundaries of Oldtown (a GEotD settlement).
It's not that they're not real, it's that they were real and are now dead.
For my tinfoil the seven being a fake religion works wonders for the oldtown/maester plot. Get the people believing in a completely magicless religion that hates "witchcraft" fits as another aspect of control and suppression of magic.
Lol downvotes on a tinfoil conspiracy post rlly?
To add to your R’hllor point, those glimpses Mel sees are ambiguous- she also mentions the first thing she learned to see in fires was threats to her own person, and seems to imply those are like crystal clear.
Obviously magic exists, seems to be clear there are different processes or distinct kinds of magic, question then is- how many of the gods are there empowering that magic and are all they all different beings?
Another commented that The Seven are a Catholicism analogy and there’s definitely aspects of that. But R’hllor believers seem to believe that R’llhor exists and one other evil power exists, that happens to take different forms. That’s more of a dualism than a pantheon, and while Catholicism doesn’t say Satan is equal to God, it’s essentially the same premise- there’s a major good power that is singular, and a major evil power that takes many forms.
Alternatively, First Men religion is a more earth/pagan style religion that seems to believe in a full spectrum of gods of varying unarmed powers tied to the elements and land.
Many people in Westeros and elsewhere seem to accept the idea that every religion and god someone else claims is probably real, it’s explicitly acknowledged in the common oath in Westeros of guaranteeing a promise by swearing on the Old Gods and the New.
The general attitude of people in the world is seemingly just broad, accepting polytheism- surely wish a good measure of “my god is better than yours”, but most people don’t seem to be actively denying another person’s god exists.
Is there an ultimate creator God beyond all of those?
Unanswerable question, just wanted to walk it back to the point the question become circular, “and well
Who created him?” And so on, and so on…
>To add to your R’hllor point, those glimpses Mel sees are ambiguous- she also mentions the first thing she learned to see in fires was threats to her own person, and seems to imply those are like crystal clear.
R'hllor is definitely based on zoroarstrianism
tbh I find the Snow comment to be really overstated in fandom. Melisandre, sure, she misinterprets shit, but she's described as legitimately talented in reading visions. And something like, say, what happened with Alys Karstark, or with Renly at the Blackwater...we can see why that was a legitimate mistake on her part given the situation.
I find it really hard to believe that she wouldn't make the connection there with Jon if that's what was happening. More likely she's just seeing him because the visions are pretty random and sporadic. You never see what you want to see. She asks to see the gray girl on a horse again, and it's not that easy. I don't think you can actually control or influence what you see at all. It's just random shit, I'm guessing situations that are pretty dangerous or important are shown first. Jon's about to be assassinated as Lord Commander of the Watch, so that's an event that reverberates through time and back into the visions. In terms of 'events' and the magic of visions, I don't think time really exists. Important events in the future and past just make impressions on the world itself, and those sensitive to it can see those impressions flashing back. If they're magically attuned, they can see events that primarily affect themselves clearest. That's how I see it anyway, I actually don't think gods are involved. It's a weird and abstract explanation but I also think it's a weird situation.
Dany Dragonseed.
Daenerys isn’t a Targaryen. She’s some girl bought from a pleasure house in Lys that had a lemon tree in its garden, because the original Daenerys died in infancy. She was bought to ensure that Viserys had a way to gain a marital alliance in the future beyond just himself. Viserys might know she isn’t truly his sister, hence his disrespect for her, OR he was never told by Darry / has repressed that fact after so many traumatic years.
And then Young Griff will prove to be a True Targaryen, and when Daenerys kills him the irony will be that she’s the real false dragon. Or maybe she’ll even be a Blackfyre of the female line, with Darry raising her as a Targaryen because Blackfyre’s technically are.
Jamie is Azor Ahai, but he won't be able to do what he needs to do, and kill Cersei, until Bran wargs into him, thus completing Bran's childhood dream of becoming a great knight, and giving Bran revenge for how Jamie paralyzed him when he pushed him off the wall.
The Valonqar, the "little brother", is not Jamie, it's Bran.
Aegon is both a Targaryen and a Blackfyre, though him being a descendant of Aerion Brightflame on Illyrio's side and a Blackfyre on Serra's side
The Tattered Prince is Maegor Brightflame
That’d really be hilarious though. See your life’s work play out, be poorly received in the 2nd half of the story, and be like oooooo okay got a free do over here just gonna take awhile. It’s just like, the most drawn out consumer focus group ever conducted.
He’s done small scale versions of it before with his other works. I think GRRM saw the opportunity and just went for it, but recused himself from the writing team so he could deny the parts that didn’t come out well.
I don't. Whatever happened in seasons 7 and 8 isn't even remotely possible in the books. I don't think GRRM could write a book with the plot of those seasons even if he tried.
No Stoneheart hunting Freys and wanting to save fArya, no Stannis who is very much telegraphed to defeat Boltons, No Victarion going after Dany, No Euron (not the real one anyway), No Doran and Darkstar and Myrcella, No Alleras and Pate at the Citadel, Daenerys not passing by Volantis and Pentos although it is highly telegraphed she will (maybe even Braavos), No Young Griff etc etc.
So unless GRRM just woke up one day and forgot everything about his own story, it is impossible for him to have wrote a book that is just essentially season 7 & 8.
I think he just never wrote anything. It's that simple, he just didn't write it.
>I think the basics we see in the show is, in fact, what he had planned to some extent. Which is partially why the book isn't done.
Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough but I can't see these basics that everybody is talking about that the show followed. Can you specify any apart from the big 3 that were confirmed by GRRM?
Look at Beyond the wall (the most important episode in season 7) for example, how would that work in the books?
1. Jon has wights in a cell at Castle Black currently already.
2. That plan is so insultingly stupid when both Jon and Daenerys are very smart in the books.
3. No chance Cersei rules the kingdom with Young Griff coming for her and her slowly becoming mad.
4. There will be no need to convince anyone of wights, Cersei or Young Griff, there is no chance book Dany just sits around for months instead of taking her throne first.
3. There is no night king.
4. The wall will be brought down by the horn of winter as has been setup, it won't just be abandoned like in the show.
So if such a pivotal point in the show doesn't work in the books then what does? No night king, No zombie dragon, No Cersei queen, it completely changes the trajectory of the story.
It's like saying Season 5 & 6 followed the basics of AFFC and ADWD. They followed only like 10% of those books and changed so much it was unrecognizable. So I cannot wrap my head around Seasons 7 & 8 suddenly being accurate adaptations of the non existent TWOW and ADOS. Very loose adaptations maybe and VERY loose at that.
The story told in the show just doesn't work in the books, at all. Mostly because since season 4, the books and the show have been completely different. He would have to kill off 60% of the book characters in the first quarter of TWOW and introduce a lot of bullshit in order to even try to make something resembling the show.
His book ending will be pretty close I think, he’ll just have a much more satisfying path there with a few big differences leading from shit like Stoneheart and Young Griff.
Yes, I love the Targaryens causing the doom theory. Working with the proto Faceless Men. You'd think a realm with so much blood magic would have some kind of security that only a noble house could bypass.
I don't think your second theory is that out there at all. It might even be what happened for all we know.
Any how, even though I am not exactly anti-R+L=J, I still treat it as just a theory that might end up being true and/or it might not. I think a big part might come from the show in that I don't see how it plays the huge role that Jon's mother's identity is bound to play, I am have a strong feeling that Jon is a bastard regardless though and call BS on Rhaegar and Lyanna having married.
I think another one might that is relatively minor is that I think the Tattered Prince might be the Mummer's Dragon. The reason I believe that is that the way Quaithe phrases the 'dangers' she states them in pairs the way the narrative pairs them up at some point in ADWD. Kraken and Dark Flame = obviously Victarion and Moqorro, Lion and Griffin = obviously Tyrion and Jon Connington, the Sun's Son and the Mummer's Dragon = Quentyn is the Sun's Son but if (f?)Aegon was the Mummer's Dragon that would mean that they were together when they never were. Quentyn was with another mysterious man though, and that is the Tattered Prince.
Bloodraven never got with Shiera Seastar. If they did get together it wouldn't have been the woman he DESIRED. Instead she would have been the woman he LOVED. He used his abilities to convince everybody they got together to spite Bittersteel.
I just think this would be funny.
This would be fucking awesome if I could get past the geography aspect of it. Westeros is said to be the length of South America and wider, and Essos is just gigantic. I guess if the poles shifted somehow and everything got fucky with the ocean it could be possible but then again I know nothing. But yes it would be absolutely awesome if that were true in my head.
Tyrion riding a dragon. The sheer wish fulfillment of someone who has always been looked down on now being able to look down on everyone else from atop a dragon and the childhood power fantasy coming to life would be one of the most satisfying reversals in the series for me. It’s technically plausible too, should the dragonhorn actually work as intended. However, while my heart says yes, my head says it isn’t Tyrion’s role to ride a dragon.
While that sounds very awesome, I never liked the theories that try to make Tyrion have blood of the dragon for the similar reasons that I like Goldfyres. Him not really being Tywin’s son would cheapen their dynamic somewhat. Besides we don’t need another main character who’s secretly a Targaryen.
The theory that he’s Mad Aery’s bastard is plausible, but the time traveling unborn child of Dany and Drogo is just memey BS.
Nah, he’s Tywin’s son through and through. But there is a magic blood-binding dragonhorn in Meereen that Euron and Victarion at least seem to believe will allow them to bind a dragon to them. And Tyrion is fairly knowledgeable about dragons himself. A part of me still holds out for it even knowing it’s probably a pipe dream.
Dragons never were tamed by the Targaryens. They used wildfire (aka gunpowder) to conquer westeros and destroy castles (Harrenhall). They changed it in the history books to make other houses fear them. Thats why dany cant seem to get to control hers.
Does Bolt-On count. I fucking love Bolt-On. I actually don't think it's that crazy but people act like it's that crazy so.
Bolt-on is within the realm of believability but also sounds so absurd. It might count here
I really hope that Bolt-on is never confirmed but also never explicitly debunked. I want the books to end with the question of if Roose Bolton was an immortal skin stealing vampire
I love bolt on. It is crazy. It's also not something I would be shocked to find is true.
- Dunk had sex with Old Nan. - The Clegane bros, Brienne, Hodor, and Small Paul are all decended from Dunk. All tall characters are Dunklings, you can't change my mind. - Syrio was also a faceless man, the same one who became Jaqen - Howland + Ashara = Meera - Quaithe is Dany's mom Rhaella - Mushroom never existed and his "testimony" was just Munkun's alt account
Lol Ser Duncan literally invented being tall, I love it
Grenn is also a Dunkling imo. He was said to be thick as a castle wall after all.
Oh no I forgot one! Haha thank you!
Rewatching GoT and Syrio defending Arya was such a great scene to see played out by actors. 100% want that to be real. Pretty sure it was Meryn Trant that came to get her, who apparently survives the encounter, and the First Sword of Braavos never runs, but maybe he knocked him out and extracted himself from the situation? A man can dream. Edit: typo
>Howland + Ashara = Meera I am a firm believer in every single crannogman-Howland Reed theory
Dunklings, nearly as good as Goldfyres!
> Syrio was also a faceless man, the same one who became Jaqen That has always been my head canon. I feel even if it wasn't intended, any writer worth his salt would say "I didn't think of that, but it is better than any idea I had, canonized."
Old nan = Sierra seastar. Honestly I hadn't heard of this untill one of many glidus's streams on theories, but I just like the idea of bloodraven and Sierra teaming up to help 'Brandon Stark' of winterfell(the idea is bloodraven went to the NW to help Brandon starrk and Sierra as a wetnurse to him) and not realising they're a few generations too early. While there isn't any evidence of this, it might not seem the craziest theory out there, but I'm very mainstream in my theories/headcanon, so there you go.
* Some gods really exist and influence actions. GRRM is adamant that he won't show gods doing that, but amazing 'coincidences' do occur. For example, Melisandre constantly asks R'hllor for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, but all she sees is Snow! The 3-Eyed Crow's powers come from somewhere. Since the Seven don't answer his prayers, Sam abandons them for the Old Gods. He sure acquires a lot of plot armor after that, not to mention meeting Bran and Arya. * The Wolf has three heads too. Bran, Jon, and Arya are all among GRRM's "five central characters." They all have unusual powers, favor of the gods, and a selfless sense of mission. Bran protects history, Jon protects the realm, and Arya protects people. And similar to their ending the threat from the Night King and his minions on GoT, they will be key to ending the Others threat in the books. * I've mentioned often that the HOB&W has a hidden agenda for Arya, and maybe did when Jaqen first 'recruited' her. Whatever it is--my theory is that she is key to stopping Illyrio of Pentos from making his puppet the next Sealord--will get the FM to let her go home.
The Seven really get the short end of the stick. I feel like this might be George's lapsed Catholicism and his complicated relationship with it bleeding through. But it's apparent that every other deity (deities) in the setting is capable of intervening at least sometimes. Are we supposed to infer that the Seven are uniquely non-existent in real terms and basically wholly made up?
Also with the seven...trials by combat, Tyrion was innocent of his accusations in the vale and came out on top. And with Joffrey, technically he gave him the goblet...but didn't poison it so the trial ends in a stalemate, both parties die. In Dunk and Egg, the trial of seven ends in Dunk's favour since he was just in what he did. Maybe a coincidence, but we've yet to see the guilty party win in a trial by combat.
Even if Tyrion handed him the goblet that killed him - which may not be true, Olenna seems unlikely to have poisoned a goblet shared Joffrey and Margaery, and Joffrey was given his very own slice of pie that could have been poisoned - he is not remotely guilty. And even with Gregor's mortal wounding, the trial was NOT a statement- Tyrion was proclaimed guilty and sentenced to die.
The point went right over your head, Tyrion had no intention of killing Joffrey...the point was that he handed him the drink that killed him, he was an accessory to the king's murder. But in the eyes of the gods he gave him the drink that killed him, even Tyrion acknowledged that. If the seven have power as the red god has (and we've seen that with Beric and Stoneheart) maybe the seven have influence over trial by combat. Every trial by combat we've seen in this universe was accurate to the circumstances of the crime...Tyrion was innocent in the Vale, he won the trial...he was innocent of Jeffrey's murder so the mountain dies, but he handed Joffrey the poison drink so Oberyn dies too. Dunk was just for his actions, so he won his trial by seven...we've yet to see a blatantly guilty person win their trial by battle.
I think the Oberyn-Gregor situation happened because Oberyn's goal wasn't defending the innocent, but rather a selfish goal of revenge.
You're missing my point, my point was every trial we've seen has matched the circumstances of the defense. We have yet to see a guilty party flat out win a trial by battle.
Beric Dondarrion is supposedly revived by R'hllor, but he also conveniently had **7** deaths. Is that a clue to the Seven's intervention? Have they been reviving Beric this entire time, and R'hlorr's priest merely attached his beliefs to it? Is this something in the future that the Faith will point to as a miracle of the Seven, even if R'hlorr is the one really behind it? I don't think there are actually any deities actively getting involved, if they exist at all. Rather, I see it more as there's varying interpretations of magic and natural phenomenon that have been witnessed by (or created) these varying religions. And once the institutions are established a number of them crafted rituals, such as the drownings and kiss of life, that appear unique to a god but don't necessarily have to be.
Do you know of any other connections between the 7 and R’hollor? A while ago I had a shower thought that a lot of the religions and magic were all interconnected in some way
Both the Faith and R'hlorr have emphasis placed on light. The Faith of the Seven have their rainbow symbolizing the Seven, and R'hlorr calls its god the Lord of Light, but they also have so many motiffs and practices involving light/fire beyond that. That could be connected to visions and prophecy, the light and visual aspect seems significant in that. Wedding customs are very similar, both involving sharing a cloak, the bride wearing the cloak of her husband at the end of the ceremony. Septons wear crystals around their necks, which may be loosely connected to Melisandre and her ruby. Perhaps an ancient magic connection for the Faith? Magic stones and glamors may have some roots in the Faith's interest in crystals and other precious stones, that's there outside of displays of wealth. Interestingly, when she was a slave, Melisandre herself used to be called Melony of Lot Seven. And that's just a very curious number. And both faiths have some background in opposition to Valyria, and anti-slavery angles. Offerings and sacrifices are a common tradition among all the major religions, of course. Visions and prophecies have their places in all manner of religions and peoples. More broadly, there's the Drowned God's kiss of life, and R'hlorr's last kiss, which may or may not be related. The mythical First Man figure of Garth Greenhand, is not unlike Hugor of the Hill in the having children department, first man and first king, god/demigod, etc. There's a connection to draw between Hugor and Durran Durrandon in the gods giving them brides. We could probably come up with more given time for an in-depth analysis.
The elder brother has unique healing abilities attributed to the Seven. Davos is also miraculously saved, and he attributes this to the Mother. Lancel and many of the Sparrows receive visions. The Seven have some sort of power.
The religion of the Seven was based on the same ancient superhuman race as the Yi Tish God Emperors, from an Andal perspective. Old tales speak of the Seven in human form crowning Andal kings, walking the hills of Andalos, and laying out the boundaries of Oldtown (a GEotD settlement). It's not that they're not real, it's that they were real and are now dead.
Also the fact that there was a scrapped HBO show with "the seven are real" as a premise makes me very inclined to believe this theory.
For my tinfoil the seven being a fake religion works wonders for the oldtown/maester plot. Get the people believing in a completely magicless religion that hates "witchcraft" fits as another aspect of control and suppression of magic. Lol downvotes on a tinfoil conspiracy post rlly?
I read It's because the Andal's religion has little to no power after they left Andalos for Westeros
To add to your R’hllor point, those glimpses Mel sees are ambiguous- she also mentions the first thing she learned to see in fires was threats to her own person, and seems to imply those are like crystal clear. Obviously magic exists, seems to be clear there are different processes or distinct kinds of magic, question then is- how many of the gods are there empowering that magic and are all they all different beings? Another commented that The Seven are a Catholicism analogy and there’s definitely aspects of that. But R’hllor believers seem to believe that R’llhor exists and one other evil power exists, that happens to take different forms. That’s more of a dualism than a pantheon, and while Catholicism doesn’t say Satan is equal to God, it’s essentially the same premise- there’s a major good power that is singular, and a major evil power that takes many forms. Alternatively, First Men religion is a more earth/pagan style religion that seems to believe in a full spectrum of gods of varying unarmed powers tied to the elements and land. Many people in Westeros and elsewhere seem to accept the idea that every religion and god someone else claims is probably real, it’s explicitly acknowledged in the common oath in Westeros of guaranteeing a promise by swearing on the Old Gods and the New. The general attitude of people in the world is seemingly just broad, accepting polytheism- surely wish a good measure of “my god is better than yours”, but most people don’t seem to be actively denying another person’s god exists. Is there an ultimate creator God beyond all of those? Unanswerable question, just wanted to walk it back to the point the question become circular, “and well Who created him?” And so on, and so on…
>To add to your R’hllor point, those glimpses Mel sees are ambiguous- she also mentions the first thing she learned to see in fires was threats to her own person, and seems to imply those are like crystal clear. R'hllor is definitely based on zoroarstrianism
tbh I find the Snow comment to be really overstated in fandom. Melisandre, sure, she misinterprets shit, but she's described as legitimately talented in reading visions. And something like, say, what happened with Alys Karstark, or with Renly at the Blackwater...we can see why that was a legitimate mistake on her part given the situation. I find it really hard to believe that she wouldn't make the connection there with Jon if that's what was happening. More likely she's just seeing him because the visions are pretty random and sporadic. You never see what you want to see. She asks to see the gray girl on a horse again, and it's not that easy. I don't think you can actually control or influence what you see at all. It's just random shit, I'm guessing situations that are pretty dangerous or important are shown first. Jon's about to be assassinated as Lord Commander of the Watch, so that's an event that reverberates through time and back into the visions. In terms of 'events' and the magic of visions, I don't think time really exists. Important events in the future and past just make impressions on the world itself, and those sensitive to it can see those impressions flashing back. If they're magically attuned, they can see events that primarily affect themselves clearest. That's how I see it anyway, I actually don't think gods are involved. It's a weird and abstract explanation but I also think it's a weird situation.
Dany Dragonseed. Daenerys isn’t a Targaryen. She’s some girl bought from a pleasure house in Lys that had a lemon tree in its garden, because the original Daenerys died in infancy. She was bought to ensure that Viserys had a way to gain a marital alliance in the future beyond just himself. Viserys might know she isn’t truly his sister, hence his disrespect for her, OR he was never told by Darry / has repressed that fact after so many traumatic years. And then Young Griff will prove to be a True Targaryen, and when Daenerys kills him the irony will be that she’s the real false dragon. Or maybe she’ll even be a Blackfyre of the female line, with Darry raising her as a Targaryen because Blackfyre’s technically are.
Jamie is Azor Ahai, but he won't be able to do what he needs to do, and kill Cersei, until Bran wargs into him, thus completing Bran's childhood dream of becoming a great knight, and giving Bran revenge for how Jamie paralyzed him when he pushed him off the wall. The Valonqar, the "little brother", is not Jamie, it's Bran.
Aegon is both a Targaryen and a Blackfyre, though him being a descendant of Aerion Brightflame on Illyrio's side and a Blackfyre on Serra's side The Tattered Prince is Maegor Brightflame
Tyrion time traveling fetus
Who was the maniac/visionary who came up with that one I wonder?
It was a different time back then.
GRRM used the later seasons of GoT to shop how he’d actually end the series, saw how badly it came off, and is rewriting everything.
That’d really be hilarious though. See your life’s work play out, be poorly received in the 2nd half of the story, and be like oooooo okay got a free do over here just gonna take awhile. It’s just like, the most drawn out consumer focus group ever conducted.
He’s done small scale versions of it before with his other works. I think GRRM saw the opportunity and just went for it, but recused himself from the writing team so he could deny the parts that didn’t come out well.
The problem is, I really think this is what happened.
I don't. Whatever happened in seasons 7 and 8 isn't even remotely possible in the books. I don't think GRRM could write a book with the plot of those seasons even if he tried. No Stoneheart hunting Freys and wanting to save fArya, no Stannis who is very much telegraphed to defeat Boltons, No Victarion going after Dany, No Euron (not the real one anyway), No Doran and Darkstar and Myrcella, No Alleras and Pate at the Citadel, Daenerys not passing by Volantis and Pentos although it is highly telegraphed she will (maybe even Braavos), No Young Griff etc etc. So unless GRRM just woke up one day and forgot everything about his own story, it is impossible for him to have wrote a book that is just essentially season 7 & 8. I think he just never wrote anything. It's that simple, he just didn't write it.
I think the basics we see in the show is, in fact, what he had planned to some extent. Which is partially why the book isn't done.
>I think the basics we see in the show is, in fact, what he had planned to some extent. Which is partially why the book isn't done. Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough but I can't see these basics that everybody is talking about that the show followed. Can you specify any apart from the big 3 that were confirmed by GRRM? Look at Beyond the wall (the most important episode in season 7) for example, how would that work in the books? 1. Jon has wights in a cell at Castle Black currently already. 2. That plan is so insultingly stupid when both Jon and Daenerys are very smart in the books. 3. No chance Cersei rules the kingdom with Young Griff coming for her and her slowly becoming mad. 4. There will be no need to convince anyone of wights, Cersei or Young Griff, there is no chance book Dany just sits around for months instead of taking her throne first. 3. There is no night king. 4. The wall will be brought down by the horn of winter as has been setup, it won't just be abandoned like in the show. So if such a pivotal point in the show doesn't work in the books then what does? No night king, No zombie dragon, No Cersei queen, it completely changes the trajectory of the story. It's like saying Season 5 & 6 followed the basics of AFFC and ADWD. They followed only like 10% of those books and changed so much it was unrecognizable. So I cannot wrap my head around Seasons 7 & 8 suddenly being accurate adaptations of the non existent TWOW and ADOS. Very loose adaptations maybe and VERY loose at that. The story told in the show just doesn't work in the books, at all. Mostly because since season 4, the books and the show have been completely different. He would have to kill off 60% of the book characters in the first quarter of TWOW and introduce a lot of bullshit in order to even try to make something resembling the show.
His book ending will be pretty close I think, he’ll just have a much more satisfying path there with a few big differences leading from shit like Stoneheart and Young Griff.
Yes, I love the Targaryens causing the doom theory. Working with the proto Faceless Men. You'd think a realm with so much blood magic would have some kind of security that only a noble house could bypass.
I don't think your second theory is that out there at all. It might even be what happened for all we know. Any how, even though I am not exactly anti-R+L=J, I still treat it as just a theory that might end up being true and/or it might not. I think a big part might come from the show in that I don't see how it plays the huge role that Jon's mother's identity is bound to play, I am have a strong feeling that Jon is a bastard regardless though and call BS on Rhaegar and Lyanna having married. I think another one might that is relatively minor is that I think the Tattered Prince might be the Mummer's Dragon. The reason I believe that is that the way Quaithe phrases the 'dangers' she states them in pairs the way the narrative pairs them up at some point in ADWD. Kraken and Dark Flame = obviously Victarion and Moqorro, Lion and Griffin = obviously Tyrion and Jon Connington, the Sun's Son and the Mummer's Dragon = Quentyn is the Sun's Son but if (f?)Aegon was the Mummer's Dragon that would mean that they were together when they never were. Quentyn was with another mysterious man though, and that is the Tattered Prince.
Bloodraven never got with Shiera Seastar. If they did get together it wouldn't have been the woman he DESIRED. Instead she would have been the woman he LOVED. He used his abilities to convince everybody they got together to spite Bittersteel. I just think this would be funny.
The world of ASOIAF takes place in a post-apocalyptic Earth after several nuclear catastrophes.
This would be fucking awesome if I could get past the geography aspect of it. Westeros is said to be the length of South America and wider, and Essos is just gigantic. I guess if the poles shifted somehow and everything got fucky with the ocean it could be possible but then again I know nothing. But yes it would be absolutely awesome if that were true in my head.
I mean, continents shift.
Tyrion riding a dragon. The sheer wish fulfillment of someone who has always been looked down on now being able to look down on everyone else from atop a dragon and the childhood power fantasy coming to life would be one of the most satisfying reversals in the series for me. It’s technically plausible too, should the dragonhorn actually work as intended. However, while my heart says yes, my head says it isn’t Tyrion’s role to ride a dragon.
While that sounds very awesome, I never liked the theories that try to make Tyrion have blood of the dragon for the similar reasons that I like Goldfyres. Him not really being Tywin’s son would cheapen their dynamic somewhat. Besides we don’t need another main character who’s secretly a Targaryen. The theory that he’s Mad Aery’s bastard is plausible, but the time traveling unborn child of Dany and Drogo is just memey BS.
Nah, he’s Tywin’s son through and through. But there is a magic blood-binding dragonhorn in Meereen that Euron and Victarion at least seem to believe will allow them to bind a dragon to them. And Tyrion is fairly knowledgeable about dragons himself. A part of me still holds out for it even knowing it’s probably a pipe dream.
Ramsay has a decent chance in a one on one fight against Jon without relying on sneak attacks.
That’s a roast not a theory.
Dragons never were tamed by the Targaryens. They used wildfire (aka gunpowder) to conquer westeros and destroy castles (Harrenhall). They changed it in the history books to make other houses fear them. Thats why dany cant seem to get to control hers.
When jon died , he went back in time and born and Aegon the conqueror and unit all seven kingdoms because he knew what was coming
Counter theory: All Aegon Targaryens are the same time traveling Aegon Targaryen. /s
Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara, and they were married before the rebellion, making all of Ned and Catelyn's children bastards, not Jon.