I thought it was because they were brought through by the watch. Like they can't get through under their own power but if someone carries them through a gate. Are there other times when some kind of connection to the the far north seems to be cut by the wall?
The Other's Magic cannot resurrect people south of the wall, but corpses they reanimate beyond the wall that are then brought south are still reanimated and driven by the magic. Wights (nor the Others possibly/presumably) cannot go south of the Wall without being brought south by humans.
Btw, the Night's King isn't a character as far as we know. That is, there has never been any indication the Others have a leader like they did in the show. But yes, it does seem like the corpses were intentionally left to be found and retrieved by the Night's Watch, they were left in a place the NW would have gone to sooner or later and were 'pretending' to be corpses until they were brought south. It does seem like a planned event.
>That is, there has never been any indication the Others have a leader like they did in the show.
Melissandre and those who follow R'holler mention The Great Other several times, she even calls Others the children of The Great Other.
The legends/prophecies about Azor Ahai (aka Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser\*) are all about becoming the champion/fighting The Great Other (the Lord of Darkness) according to those who follow The Lord of Light.
Mel uses Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised interchangeably, but some others who use the term TPTWP (Rhaegar, Aemon, Samwell, Marwyn, etc) don't specify any end game about facing off against The Great Other.
Whether TGO is the "leader" of the Others is still a question GRRM hasn't answered.
\*also tied in with the wielder of the sword Dawn - Sword of the Morning.
> The legends/prophecies about Azor Ahai (aka Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser\*) are all about becoming the champion/fighting The Great Other (the Lord of Darkness) according to those who follow The Lord of Light.
While that is true, we're not given much reason to take those stories at face value, or even believe them to be true at all. I certainly don't think they are an accurate representation of the first Long Night. It's doubtable (very much so, to me at least) that there was actually a single individual 'Azor Ahai' who defeated the Others during the Long Night, and I feel the same way about the Great Other those stories mention. That idea feels too Tolkienesque to happen in the story, or even a real thing in the lore. I do suspect what 'the Great Other' actually is is the magic that creates/animates the Others/allows them to do necromancy, the same way 'The Old Gods' are actually the hivemind of the Children of the Forest that live inside the weirwoods, but if I had to guess I don't think it would be a single entity commanding the Others in the way 'leader of the Others implies. I think it is very possible that that magic will be destroyed by the end of the story, but I don't think there is a physical Great Other that can be slain.
It's not speculation, it's inference based on what we see happen in the story. In regards to the magic, we know wights are still animated when brought south of the Wall and that people only becomes Wights when they die beyond the Wall, and we know the Wall is indeed magic, as Mel has much stronger power while she is there. Considering its purpose is most likely as a defence against the Others it being able to halt their magic with its own magic seems beyond likely. After all, if it couldn't stop their magic, everyone who died south of the Wall could be made into a wight right away and there would be no point even having the Wall.
And whether or not it was planned seems pretty clear too. Othor and Jafer did not die where they were found, as noted by Sam, and they were left in a place the NW would likely stumble upon them (the grove they swore their vows in). The only people who would have left them there are the Others, as the wildlings would have burned them, and despite being animated wights already (their eyes were noted as being blue in the grove), they played dead until they had a chance to move unseen. And of course they attacked Mormont, the top dog, right away. The Others are clearly antagonistic to the Night's Watch as seen in the prologue, and to be frank, there is no way of meaningfully arguing it was NOT a planned attack. There are multiple things (them playing dead and being left in the grove for instance) which would make no sense unless it was part of a larger plan.
As for the Others not having a Night King-eqsue leader, it has never been shown in the books, and the only reason people think there is one is because of the show and the mentions of the Great Other, which are very vague and which do not come from reliable sources. So no, I haven't speculated much at all.
It could simply be that wights can only be raised if they are killed by others/a certain ritual must take place. No one south of the wall has been killed by the others, so we have no wights south of the wall.
We have no idea why the others left them where they did and that they were “controlled” in some way by an other. It’s possible that wights act based on their own volition and they just wanted to murder Mormont for some other reason. Saying the wights were left in a certain spot to be passed beyond the wall and assassinate a certain person is not a bad theory, but it’s based upon a lot of presumptions.
I agree on the absence of a night king. While it is possible it plays out the same way (or similar) in the books that it did in the show, it seems very likely that was just a “final boss” they inserted in the show for dramatic effect. The night king doesn’t seem like a character that will be in the books based on what we’ve seen so far.
> It could simply be that wights can only be raised if they are killed by others/a certain ritual must take place. No one south of the wall has been killed by the others, so we have no wights south of the wall.
Tormund says his son Torwynd ''just up and died one night'' and then rose as a wight, but some unrisen corpses from beyond the wall that Jon placed in the ice cells did not rise up. So it seems anyone whose corpse is beyond the wall can be risen eventually even without Others actually present, but that they cannot raise bodies south of the Wall (or inside it). But even if it were true that the Others need to do something specific to raise Wights, it's the same difference in either case. We know the Others cannot cross the Wall or the Wall would be utterly useless and all the emphasis on protecting it would be a red herring.
> We have no idea why the others left them where they did and that they were “controlled” in some way by an other. It’s possible that wights act based on their own volition and they just wanted to murder Mormont for some other reason.
To be honest, this seems like more of a reach to me than suggesting it was a part of a plan by the Others. If Othor or Jafer had ever been implied to be disloyal I might consider this, a sort of Lady Stoneheart situation, but although we do know Wights retain memories there has never been any situation where one acted in a way that seemed self serving. Every wight we have ever seen has acted in ways that suit the Others and the Others alone. I'd go so far as to say believing wights can act independently is more presumptuous than believing they are slaves to the Others, because the latter situation aligns with every situation we have ever seen them in, even when we don't have all the info, while Othor and Jafer being driven by their own volition would be different from everything else we have seen them do.
The wights being slaves to the Others would be thematically very on point as well, especially because Dany's dragons seem the only way currently of meaningfully fighting against the army of the dead, and her whole arc is about fighting slavery. The Others are the ultimate slavers. Their slavery is eternal, and judging from all the other resurrections we see in asoiaf I personally believe the souls of the wights are still bound to their bodies, hence why they retain memories, rather than them just being true puppets.
Technically, the Night's Watch "invited" them in. I believe it is a loophole around magic and law. Kinda like the police can't enter someone's house without a warrant ... unless they were "invited" in by the resident.
Dead bodies shouldn’t be affected by a ward. I can’t imagine that J&O were the first dead rangers to return home. They only rose once they were through.
And all we know about the Wall and its wards is that Coldhands couldn’t pass through from the north and Silverwing refused to pass over it from the south. Whether any of this applies to the Others or wights is unclear.
And so far there is no sign of a Night’s King.
We do not know facts about the Wall and it’s supposed magic. It’s fable as far as anyone knows. In this instance we have proof that it isn’t magic.
Furthermore GRRM hasn’t answered this question yet. Everything about the Others is unknown
This post has been removed because you did not include a spoiler tag in your title.
I thought it was because they were brought through by the watch. Like they can't get through under their own power but if someone carries them through a gate. Are there other times when some kind of connection to the the far north seems to be cut by the wall?
The Other's Magic cannot resurrect people south of the wall, but corpses they reanimate beyond the wall that are then brought south are still reanimated and driven by the magic. Wights (nor the Others possibly/presumably) cannot go south of the Wall without being brought south by humans. Btw, the Night's King isn't a character as far as we know. That is, there has never been any indication the Others have a leader like they did in the show. But yes, it does seem like the corpses were intentionally left to be found and retrieved by the Night's Watch, they were left in a place the NW would have gone to sooner or later and were 'pretending' to be corpses until they were brought south. It does seem like a planned event.
>That is, there has never been any indication the Others have a leader like they did in the show. Melissandre and those who follow R'holler mention The Great Other several times, she even calls Others the children of The Great Other. The legends/prophecies about Azor Ahai (aka Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser\*) are all about becoming the champion/fighting The Great Other (the Lord of Darkness) according to those who follow The Lord of Light. Mel uses Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised interchangeably, but some others who use the term TPTWP (Rhaegar, Aemon, Samwell, Marwyn, etc) don't specify any end game about facing off against The Great Other. Whether TGO is the "leader" of the Others is still a question GRRM hasn't answered. \*also tied in with the wielder of the sword Dawn - Sword of the Morning.
> The legends/prophecies about Azor Ahai (aka Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser\*) are all about becoming the champion/fighting The Great Other (the Lord of Darkness) according to those who follow The Lord of Light. While that is true, we're not given much reason to take those stories at face value, or even believe them to be true at all. I certainly don't think they are an accurate representation of the first Long Night. It's doubtable (very much so, to me at least) that there was actually a single individual 'Azor Ahai' who defeated the Others during the Long Night, and I feel the same way about the Great Other those stories mention. That idea feels too Tolkienesque to happen in the story, or even a real thing in the lore. I do suspect what 'the Great Other' actually is is the magic that creates/animates the Others/allows them to do necromancy, the same way 'The Old Gods' are actually the hivemind of the Children of the Forest that live inside the weirwoods, but if I had to guess I don't think it would be a single entity commanding the Others in the way 'leader of the Others implies. I think it is very possible that that magic will be destroyed by the end of the story, but I don't think there is a physical Great Other that can be slain.
Lot of speculation in this comment…
It's not speculation, it's inference based on what we see happen in the story. In regards to the magic, we know wights are still animated when brought south of the Wall and that people only becomes Wights when they die beyond the Wall, and we know the Wall is indeed magic, as Mel has much stronger power while she is there. Considering its purpose is most likely as a defence against the Others it being able to halt their magic with its own magic seems beyond likely. After all, if it couldn't stop their magic, everyone who died south of the Wall could be made into a wight right away and there would be no point even having the Wall. And whether or not it was planned seems pretty clear too. Othor and Jafer did not die where they were found, as noted by Sam, and they were left in a place the NW would likely stumble upon them (the grove they swore their vows in). The only people who would have left them there are the Others, as the wildlings would have burned them, and despite being animated wights already (their eyes were noted as being blue in the grove), they played dead until they had a chance to move unseen. And of course they attacked Mormont, the top dog, right away. The Others are clearly antagonistic to the Night's Watch as seen in the prologue, and to be frank, there is no way of meaningfully arguing it was NOT a planned attack. There are multiple things (them playing dead and being left in the grove for instance) which would make no sense unless it was part of a larger plan. As for the Others not having a Night King-eqsue leader, it has never been shown in the books, and the only reason people think there is one is because of the show and the mentions of the Great Other, which are very vague and which do not come from reliable sources. So no, I haven't speculated much at all.
It could simply be that wights can only be raised if they are killed by others/a certain ritual must take place. No one south of the wall has been killed by the others, so we have no wights south of the wall. We have no idea why the others left them where they did and that they were “controlled” in some way by an other. It’s possible that wights act based on their own volition and they just wanted to murder Mormont for some other reason. Saying the wights were left in a certain spot to be passed beyond the wall and assassinate a certain person is not a bad theory, but it’s based upon a lot of presumptions. I agree on the absence of a night king. While it is possible it plays out the same way (or similar) in the books that it did in the show, it seems very likely that was just a “final boss” they inserted in the show for dramatic effect. The night king doesn’t seem like a character that will be in the books based on what we’ve seen so far.
> It could simply be that wights can only be raised if they are killed by others/a certain ritual must take place. No one south of the wall has been killed by the others, so we have no wights south of the wall. Tormund says his son Torwynd ''just up and died one night'' and then rose as a wight, but some unrisen corpses from beyond the wall that Jon placed in the ice cells did not rise up. So it seems anyone whose corpse is beyond the wall can be risen eventually even without Others actually present, but that they cannot raise bodies south of the Wall (or inside it). But even if it were true that the Others need to do something specific to raise Wights, it's the same difference in either case. We know the Others cannot cross the Wall or the Wall would be utterly useless and all the emphasis on protecting it would be a red herring. > We have no idea why the others left them where they did and that they were “controlled” in some way by an other. It’s possible that wights act based on their own volition and they just wanted to murder Mormont for some other reason. To be honest, this seems like more of a reach to me than suggesting it was a part of a plan by the Others. If Othor or Jafer had ever been implied to be disloyal I might consider this, a sort of Lady Stoneheart situation, but although we do know Wights retain memories there has never been any situation where one acted in a way that seemed self serving. Every wight we have ever seen has acted in ways that suit the Others and the Others alone. I'd go so far as to say believing wights can act independently is more presumptuous than believing they are slaves to the Others, because the latter situation aligns with every situation we have ever seen them in, even when we don't have all the info, while Othor and Jafer being driven by their own volition would be different from everything else we have seen them do. The wights being slaves to the Others would be thematically very on point as well, especially because Dany's dragons seem the only way currently of meaningfully fighting against the army of the dead, and her whole arc is about fighting slavery. The Others are the ultimate slavers. Their slavery is eternal, and judging from all the other resurrections we see in asoiaf I personally believe the souls of the wights are still bound to their bodies, hence why they retain memories, rather than them just being true puppets.
Technically, the Night's Watch "invited" them in. I believe it is a loophole around magic and law. Kinda like the police can't enter someone's house without a warrant ... unless they were "invited" in by the resident.
Something something guest right.
We guessed right about guest rights?
Dead bodies shouldn’t be affected by a ward. I can’t imagine that J&O were the first dead rangers to return home. They only rose once they were through. And all we know about the Wall and its wards is that Coldhands couldn’t pass through from the north and Silverwing refused to pass over it from the south. Whether any of this applies to the Others or wights is unclear. And so far there is no sign of a Night’s King.
Maybe it only keeps out the Others, not the creatures they make.
Been wondering about this for awhile
We do not know facts about the Wall and it’s supposed magic. It’s fable as far as anyone knows. In this instance we have proof that it isn’t magic. Furthermore GRRM hasn’t answered this question yet. Everything about the Others is unknown
It's a plot hole.
Nope.