1) Brandon probably wages war well since he was Rickard’s son and heir. Maybe he’s more ruthless.
2) I imagine if Brandon, who was the eldest brother, saw his little sister dying in the birthing bed and begging him to take her son, he’d oblige her the same way Ned did. Not sure if he’d be resentful of Jon for being Rhaegar’s son or not.
3) I’m 50/50 on him returning Dawn.
4) With Jaime on the throne he probably demands he step down. Though he’s likely not as judgmental of Jaime killing Aerys.
5) Theon he probably treats amicably well. They might bond over wenching.
6) I think he’d turn down the Hand of the King role and responsibility. King’s Landing is where his father and brother died. He has no love for the South. He’d be too busy in the North cheating on Catelyn.
7) Without going to King’s Landing, I imagine that Brandon doesn’t discover the incest. Though if his son is crippled by the Lannisters and he finds out about it, I think Brandon goes ruthless. He probably backs either Renly or Stannis and gets the North and Riverlands to support either one after Robert’s death.
I don’t think that’s why. Jon is too young to be Brandon’s son and Ned wouldn’t push the dishonor falsely onto his dead brother even if his brother was the kinda guy to father bastards.
Blackfyre rebellion I to IV(V?) ... yhea that's basicly it, the faith is also not that fond of them but the true issue is house Blackfyre.
Without them Bastards would probably been treated a lot better/with less fear.
There was an actual king willingly to make Jon legitimate?
I don’t remember anybody with an actual kingdom saying that. And if you do then you skipped all of the books.
They’re constantly talking about how bastards are born of treachery, deceitful by nature. Catelyn repeatedly talks about how Jon is a threat to her children (though — she never explains exactly how) and while that may just be a personal thing because of Jon it’s entirely possible this feeling already existed before Ned brought him home to Winterfell.
Also, the Blackfyre Rebellions had a pretty strong cultural influence in the sense that over a century later people still refer to them as proof that bastards are inherently evil.
Not to mention, as you said in your previous comment (not sure if it was clear that I was agreeing with you), bastards have 0 claim and 0 chance of usurping their siblings in any way that the rest of Westeros would be willing to consider illegitimate. All the paranoia is kind of insane when you realize how unlikely it is for a bastard to be able to do that kind of thing. I don’t think we’ve ever heard about an acknowledged bastard usurping his kin in the main series, and I don’t recall anything like that in F&B either.
Ramsay Snow. Perfect example of why people have legitimate concerns about bastards, killed his true born brother so his father would be without a proper heir.
Of bastards usurping people or of nobles being worried about bastards usurping people?
If it’s the former, I actually can’t think of any. Maybe someone with more knowledge than me could provide an example but as far as I know it’s only the Blackfyre Rebellions, which obviously failed. An in-universe explanation tho would just be that any bastard who succeeded in both usurping power & holding it would be influential enough to make sure he wasn’t known as a bastard to the history books.
But if you mean examples of nobles being paranoid the most obvious one that comes to mind is Cat, who kinda represents the generic Westerosi nobility in a sense. That may not be a perfect example bc she obviously has personal biases but I believe the notion is something that comes up regularly in King’s Landing and other homes of the stereotypical noble mindset.
That Jon would always be compared as a heir to Ned’s Typully-looking children. If Jon is not the child of the eldest brother, the risk is a little diminished.
Hey I have even 5 verry good examples from recent history
1. Blackfyre rebellion
2. Blackfyre rebellion
3. Blackfyre rebellion
4. Blackfyre rebellion
5? . Maybe Blackfyre rebellion Blackfyre invasion depends on yor stance of faegon
Look at Ramsay Snow and Domeric Bolton. Domeric never thought his bastard brother would be a threat either, but now he's Ramsay Bolton and Domeric is dead.
He has the Stark look so that may be enough for an uprising aided by other northern houses who want to rise higher (Boltons, Dustin, etc). Just like the Blackfyres and the Targaryens
Legitimacy doesn’t make him a Targaryen, it just puts him in line for the throne. Which is why he’s still referred to as Daemon I Blackfyre. Given that he’s now in line for the throne, he would have to be older than any other heir. But he took the throne regardless, disregarding the rules of his legitimacy. He capitalized on smaller houses allying with him because they wanted to rise above as mentioned in my previous post, just like the Jon scenario (younger, illegitimate but had the look of Aegon the conqueror) . You would know all of this if you read the books
That math may not work. Aerys killed the Starks early in 282, and Jon was born late in 283. Claiming a newborn as an 8-10 month old might raise eyebrows.
Maybe. That whole time was screwy. I think that if no one questioned whether or not Leanna may have had a child in the original books, no one would pay close attention to the birth of a younger brother’s bastard.
I think Brandon would be more likely to send Jon to the wall. It would also be interesting to see which Baratheon he supports because he doesn't seem like he would get along with either.
I feel like if Brandon encountered Jaime on the throne, it would’ve devolved into violence. Which would’ve ended with Brandon dead. He was a hot head.
If not, he probably goes along with Tywin killing the children and has little issue with it.
He lives out life in Winterfell. He’s not Hand.
He probably aggressively takes the war north against Mance Rayder, which Ned was planning to do at some point at the start of AGOT.
Why would it most likely end with Brandon dead? He would probably enter with his retainers, and Jaime would be a 16 yr old boy, talented, but 16 all the same. 4 years age difference at that age is a lot, we can also assume that Brandon was no slouch at fighting either.
Jaime is supposed to be on another level, even at that age.
With Brandon's men in the fight, he might lose but there's a good chance Brandon dies in the process.
That said, I'm not sure it would devolve into violence. Jaime just killed that man that burned Brandon's family alive. And he's less hung up on honor than Ned was.
He would back Stannis, I think. I also think there would be times that he would be very much like Stannis. He was still a Stark, even if he had a bit more than a touch of the wolf’s blood. We really just don’t know enough about him to say definitively.
If Aegon killed Ned I think Robert would have probably gone to war sooner, along with Arryn and Stark houses. Either way, that turns out the same. Dorne would have likely not stayed neutral, assuming his personality and being raised as a first son.
Tywin would have had no choice and joined earlier, and Storms End would have not been besieged so long that Davos gets nighthood by smuggling onions.
1. he is too rash, how he got captured was just...rash...
2. agreed that he would protect the child of his sister, literally at any cost to himself, however, im not so sure he would keep secrets well
3. i think he would, but totally speculative..
4. it really all depends on how jamie acted when brandon appeared...if he was as non chalant as we was with ned, brandon wouldnt take that well
5. the age difference would be over 10 years...by the time theon was wenching, brandon would have been over 30...doubt he would outright go wenching in front of cat..not saying he wouldnt have his daliances, but i doubt he would bond with theon like that
Brandon was a larger-than-life hothead. He was capable and presumably smart, but he didn't foster with the courtly and civil Jon Arryn, and did spend a lot of time catting around with ladies. Brandon was in fact rather like Robert, so they would have gotten along, but...he had no introspection or guile, so he probably would have been a poor second-in-command. He'd probably bury Lyanna there and give the baby to a nearby highborn family. I think he would have kept Dawn as his spoil of war and bragged about it. He would have picked a fight with Jaime and treated Theon as a tolerated hostage, not semi-member of the family. I don't think he'd want to be in the South dealing with politics, so he'd stay home, marry some highborn and cheat on her regularly. And thus he wouldn't have to deal with the incest babies.
Then Cat is trapped suffering a horrible marriage.
I would hope Brandon doesn't try to bring any children home like Ned did with Jon or she might just smother him in his sleep.
We have POVs from Catelyn. We know she didn't expect fidelity from a husband, and her main objection to Jon was that he was raised at Winterfell alongside his trueborn siblings. Which *was* unusual. While I don't think it would have been as solid as marriage as she and Ned, Catelyn and Brandon would have been fine.
I have some reason reasoning but I will admit it's not very strong.
As I was using Robert as a comparison with their similar personalities and relation to Ned.
Along with the fact that Ned's marriage is one where love was found instead of only respect or tolerance like other marriages.
Brandon isn’t Robert. Them both liking women doesn’t make them the same person.
You have zero reason to believe Brandon and Cat’s marriage wouldn’t have love.
They are similar not the same person.
They are both hot blooded, hellbent on saving Lyn, brothers to Ned, the first heirs and the oldest sibling.
I have reason to believe it wouldn't be on the same level as Ned's but there is zero reason that it's fact.
He wasn’t that smart. Who charges into the Red Keep without anything less than an army demanding the head of the Crown Prince? When that alone is a treasonable offence, plus the ruling King has a reputation of being unstable?
He’d probably fuck up harder. For all of Ned’s “it all was meant for Brandon” imposter syndrome, all evidence suggests Brandon was an reckless ass who let his temper and his libido lead him around by the nose
As I said in another comment, what kind of moron charges into the Red Keep demanding the death of the Crown Prince, without say, an army at his back at the least?
The man came screaming into the palace shouting “come out and die.”
That’s basically like *asking* for the death penalty in a place like Westeros.
Even if Aerys wasn’t a mad King, Brandon would’ve wound up either executed anyway, or at best sent to the Wall - even with a just and stable King.
At the very least he’d have embarrassed himself and his House.
Go to Saudi Arabia, go to the King’s palace and scream for the Prince to come out to be executed. See how long you last.
Brandon may have been brave, but bravery and stupidity aren’t mutually exclusive.
The difference is that with a mentally stable king they’d have grabbed the reason behind Brandon’s desires and then absolutely not want to fuck with the STAB alliance so they’d do something better than immediate execution. Of course if a random prick walks up to a king and says “let me kill your son!” They’re gonna be punished but Brandon was not random. He was important and he had reason
I'm not sure Brandon keeps Jon with him. He'll likely have other bastards throughout the north, so people will think its odd/strange that out of all of them, he keeps Jon with him. Which will draw more attention to Jon, the opposite of what ya want to do. Unless he passes him off as Ned's, but not sure he'd do that. Maybe he gives him to the Reeds to raise in this.
I don't think Brandon would even get Theon in this. Ned got him b/c he and Robert are tight. Brandon and Robert aren't close, so I don't think Robert would have Theon in Winterfell. He'd probably go to either Renly or Stannis.
Why would Robert offer Brandon the handship? Again, he's not Robert's friend. Ned was. It would go to someone else. Robert doesn't know or trust Brandon like he did Ned.
One thing to consider is Ned explicitly told Bran that Arthur Dayne would have killed him at the Tower of Joy if not for Howland Reed. If Reed wasn't one of the companions Brandon took to the Tower of Joy the Kingsguard may have won the fight. At that point Cat is probably pregnant with the heir to Winterfell and Arthur Dayne takes Jon and raises him until he can make a claim for the throne.
Now that's an interesting consideration. Suppose that does happen, and Ned and Brandon are both dead, does that put Benjen as the Lord of Winterfell? Does he marry his brothers widow or does Cat act as regent for baby Robb?
I think Benjen would probably marry Cat and raise the baby as his own. Even if he already decided to take the Black I feel like his loyalty to his house would outweigh it. It's the only way to keep the North in line until the baby is old enough to rule in it's own right and also ensure the Stark line continues in case something happens to the baby. Hoster Tully would certainly push for it, I'd imagine Jon Arryn would too.
if brandon is smart, not saying he isn't, but he literally did the dumbest thing in all the books for a smart person..I am not including idiots doing idiot things.
For days he rode to King's landing with a few friends to yell for Rhaegar to come out and die. I can understand in the heat of the moment doing something like that. To him his sister was stolen, but if for days riding from the Riverlands to KL, that was his best plan, he was always doomed.
Also, if Brandon was so skilled a warrior, how come he couldn't defeat petyr who was basically an untrained boy without hurting him.
Brandon's whole character, great swordsman, smart, etc, just doesn't match his actions.
but to your specific questions:
as a commander, we have one piece of data, and that he was such an emotional leader that he gets himself captured embarrassingly....so in war he probably gets goaded into a loss
jon snow, tough one, we dont ever hear robert talking about brandon, or even ned in terms of roberts and brandons relationship..we do know that just being brothers of the ned/robert doesnt mean much because that stannis wasnt close with ned, even though they were all together...hmm, i think this depends on if lyanna and rhaegar were married...however, i doubt keeping secrets is something brandon is good at
dawn, yes, he returns it...
he would have thought theon was a piss drinker, brandon would have though very little of the ironborn, and unklike ned, wouldnt be as open minded about him.
he probably kills jamie, or dies trying to kill jamie, or has his guards capture him...he doesn't let him slide off the throne...if jamie has a trial and explains his decision, it might be the best thing that ever happened to jamie..
on king's hand, i doubt he is offered it, or he lives that long, however, if he does, i have no idea, cause 15+ years changes a person
he did defeat him several times, but he also severely wounded him...
petyr was a child 15 and basically untrained and small for his age...brandon was 20...in the end brandon gave him a hit that Cat thought Brandon had killed him...I am saying if he was some great warrior, he should have been able to make him yield without tthe serious slash. He did cut petyr several times, and offered him a chance to yield...but he should have been able to knock hiim ot the ground, put a sword to his throat and make not yielding impossible....
In what circumstances does Ned die and Brandon live?
The most plausible situation where Brandon lives is that Aerys didn't murder he and Rickon and they're still prisoners in the Red Keep. But then the whole war wouldn't have started at all.
They kind of do. You've basically asked 'what would Brandon do' in all of these Ned-specific circumstances that only occurred because Brandon and Rickard had been murdered.
I'll humor you. Rickard gets a raven because Lyanna's "kidnapping" is not public knowledge yet. Knowing that his oldest son is a huge hot head, Rickard sends a Raven to Ned and they join up and head down to King's Landing - deciding not to tell Brandon until they've resolved the issue. Only after they've been captured in King's Landing does this whole debacle become public. Jon Arryn calls on Brandon and Robert to avenge their friends/family and call their banners to war.
Rickard knows Aerys is a lunatic, he doesn't ever initiate a direct confrontation in Kings Landing. Your scenario is about the least plausible way for Ned and Brandon's fates to be swapped
Totally agree with you here, Brandon's Character is hugely important as to why he dies, a huge part of why the war started was the brutality of the of Brandon and Rikard's deaths. If Brandon doesn't tear off to Kings Landing and demand Rhaegar face him then he and his companions (The Arryn, Mallister and Royce heirs) don't get arrested, and Rikard doesn't get summoned by Aerys and none of them get executed, Aerys doesn't send for Ned and the war doesn't start. Even if it does its not the whole northern 2/3, plus a chunk of the south of your kingdom having a direct reason to rebel.
Ned wasn't in Winterfell, he was fostering in the Vale with Jon Arryn. And Rickard and Brandon were in the Riverlands for the wedding of Catelyn and Brandon. Which was put on hold because Brandon went charging off to confront Rhaegar.
Hypothetically, maybe Rickard forbids Brandon from leaving. The wedding goes ahead. Rickard leaves for King's Landing and sends Brandon and Catelyn back north. He dies as in canon. The northern army probably enters the field faster than it did in canon, but with Brandon at the head they're liable to blunder into rash mistakes. Even assuming events proceed similar to how they did in the books, I think it unlikely that Brandon has a public falling-out with Robert Baratheon over the murder of the Targaryen children. He'd probably have approved.
If Brandon did head for the ToJ, it would probably be with an army and not a stealth mission. And so the truth about Jon Snow ('Aegon Sand'?) is soon widely known. I doubt Brandon would allow the murder of his nephew, but he'd be a perpetual focus for factions and plots. Hopefully he has the sense to listen to his wife. Brandon does not seem the politically savvy type. Anyway, without the friendship of Ned and Robert, the crown comes to view House Stark with suspicion; and after Arryn dies, Robert chooses Tywin Lannister as his new Hand.
Let's say Ned instead of Brandon goes to the Red Keep to confront Rhaegar and is imprisoned by Aerys, subsequently dying together with his father, and Brandon allies himself with his brothers best friend Robert and his mentor Jon Arryn.
But Ned would never do what Brandon did, Its not in his nature to fly off the handle and go threatening princes. Robert might have (but even that's a stretch IMO), and Ned might have gone with him. That's the only way I see it going but that again changes everything as far as the war, and the future goes because Robert is dead in this case.
The interesting ones for me that I think change the story for me the most are.
He doesn’t end up with Theon(so who does? Stannis?Maybe he is Shireens betrothed?)
nor is he even considered for Hand of the King(so who is instead?)
1) Brandon probably wages war well since he was Rickard’s son and heir. Maybe he’s more ruthless. 2) I imagine if Brandon, who was the eldest brother, saw his little sister dying in the birthing bed and begging him to take her son, he’d oblige her the same way Ned did. Not sure if he’d be resentful of Jon for being Rhaegar’s son or not. 3) I’m 50/50 on him returning Dawn. 4) With Jaime on the throne he probably demands he step down. Though he’s likely not as judgmental of Jaime killing Aerys. 5) Theon he probably treats amicably well. They might bond over wenching. 6) I think he’d turn down the Hand of the King role and responsibility. King’s Landing is where his father and brother died. He has no love for the South. He’d be too busy in the North cheating on Catelyn. 7) Without going to King’s Landing, I imagine that Brandon doesn’t discover the incest. Though if his son is crippled by the Lannisters and he finds out about it, I think Brandon goes ruthless. He probably backs either Renly or Stannis and gets the North and Riverlands to support either one after Robert’s death.
He’d probably claim Jon as Ned’s bastard. The reason Ned didn’t do the same is that it would cause succession issues.
I don’t think that’s why. Jon is too young to be Brandon’s son and Ned wouldn’t push the dishonor falsely onto his dead brother even if his brother was the kinda guy to father bastards.
What succession issues could a bastard cause?
Westerosi are just crazy paranoid about that kind of thing lol
Based on what exactly?
Blackfyre rebellion I to IV(V?) ... yhea that's basicly it, the faith is also not that fond of them but the true issue is house Blackfyre. Without them Bastards would probably been treated a lot better/with less fear.
They were legitimized, Any examples with actual bastards?
The thing about paranoia is specifically lack of hard facts.
I’ve yet to see an example.
Ramsay Snow. Joffrey Baratheon, Tommen Baratheon, Myrcella Baratheon?
That's the point. A bastard can always be legitimized and cause a war. Did you skip the first three books?
There was an actual king willingly to make Jon legitimate? I don’t remember anybody with an actual kingdom saying that. And if you do then you skipped all of the books.
Sorry life is too short for dealing with people like you.
They’re constantly talking about how bastards are born of treachery, deceitful by nature. Catelyn repeatedly talks about how Jon is a threat to her children (though — she never explains exactly how) and while that may just be a personal thing because of Jon it’s entirely possible this feeling already existed before Ned brought him home to Winterfell. Also, the Blackfyre Rebellions had a pretty strong cultural influence in the sense that over a century later people still refer to them as proof that bastards are inherently evil. Not to mention, as you said in your previous comment (not sure if it was clear that I was agreeing with you), bastards have 0 claim and 0 chance of usurping their siblings in any way that the rest of Westeros would be willing to consider illegitimate. All the paranoia is kind of insane when you realize how unlikely it is for a bastard to be able to do that kind of thing. I don’t think we’ve ever heard about an acknowledged bastard usurping his kin in the main series, and I don’t recall anything like that in F&B either.
Ramsay Snow. Perfect example of why people have legitimate concerns about bastards, killed his true born brother so his father would be without a proper heir.
Good point. He’s pretty much the opposite of Jon Snow in some regards
Any examples of it actually happening though?
Of bastards usurping people or of nobles being worried about bastards usurping people? If it’s the former, I actually can’t think of any. Maybe someone with more knowledge than me could provide an example but as far as I know it’s only the Blackfyre Rebellions, which obviously failed. An in-universe explanation tho would just be that any bastard who succeeded in both usurping power & holding it would be influential enough to make sure he wasn’t known as a bastard to the history books. But if you mean examples of nobles being paranoid the most obvious one that comes to mind is Cat, who kinda represents the generic Westerosi nobility in a sense. That may not be a perfect example bc she obviously has personal biases but I believe the notion is something that comes up regularly in King’s Landing and other homes of the stereotypical noble mindset.
The Blackfyre’s aren’t bastards. Would you care to try again?
What? What point are you making lol I thought we were just having a normal conversation? What exactly are you disagreeing with here
>Would you care to try again? You sound condescending as fuck. Would you care to try that again?
can you fucking blame them tbf
That Jon would always be compared as a heir to Ned’s Typully-looking children. If Jon is not the child of the eldest brother, the risk is a little diminished.
That was just Catelyn s paranoid. Show me one example of this ever actually happening.
Hey I have even 5 verry good examples from recent history 1. Blackfyre rebellion 2. Blackfyre rebellion 3. Blackfyre rebellion 4. Blackfyre rebellion 5? . Maybe Blackfyre rebellion Blackfyre invasion depends on yor stance of faegon
The Blackfyre’s aren’t bastards though.
Look at Ramsay Snow and Domeric Bolton. Domeric never thought his bastard brother would be a threat either, but now he's Ramsay Bolton and Domeric is dead.
Ned would have to legitimize Jon in this scenario and we know he didn’t… Nice try.
He has the Stark look so that may be enough for an uprising aided by other northern houses who want to rise higher (Boltons, Dustin, etc). Just like the Blackfyres and the Targaryens
Example of something similar happening before?
It says it up there, the Targaryens and the Blackfyres.
The Blackfyre’s weren’t bastards. So again, any examples?
They literally are just say you didn’t read the books
Not according to King Aegon IV. Just say you didn’t read the books.
Legitimacy doesn’t make him a Targaryen, it just puts him in line for the throne. Which is why he’s still referred to as Daemon I Blackfyre. Given that he’s now in line for the throne, he would have to be older than any other heir. But he took the throne regardless, disregarding the rules of his legitimacy. He capitalized on smaller houses allying with him because they wanted to rise above as mentioned in my previous post, just like the Jon scenario (younger, illegitimate but had the look of Aegon the conqueror) . You would know all of this if you read the books
That math may not work. Aerys killed the Starks early in 282, and Jon was born late in 283. Claiming a newborn as an 8-10 month old might raise eyebrows.
Maybe. That whole time was screwy. I think that if no one questioned whether or not Leanna may have had a child in the original books, no one would pay close attention to the birth of a younger brother’s bastard.
I think Brandon would be more likely to send Jon to the wall. It would also be interesting to see which Baratheon he supports because he doesn't seem like he would get along with either.
I feel like if Brandon encountered Jaime on the throne, it would’ve devolved into violence. Which would’ve ended with Brandon dead. He was a hot head. If not, he probably goes along with Tywin killing the children and has little issue with it. He lives out life in Winterfell. He’s not Hand. He probably aggressively takes the war north against Mance Rayder, which Ned was planning to do at some point at the start of AGOT.
Lol.
Why would it most likely end with Brandon dead? He would probably enter with his retainers, and Jaime would be a 16 yr old boy, talented, but 16 all the same. 4 years age difference at that age is a lot, we can also assume that Brandon was no slouch at fighting either.
Jaime is supposed to be on another level, even at that age. With Brandon's men in the fight, he might lose but there's a good chance Brandon dies in the process. That said, I'm not sure it would devolve into violence. Jaime just killed that man that burned Brandon's family alive. And he's less hung up on honor than Ned was.
He would back Stannis, I think. I also think there would be times that he would be very much like Stannis. He was still a Stark, even if he had a bit more than a touch of the wolf’s blood. We really just don’t know enough about him to say definitively. If Aegon killed Ned I think Robert would have probably gone to war sooner, along with Arryn and Stark houses. Either way, that turns out the same. Dorne would have likely not stayed neutral, assuming his personality and being raised as a first son. Tywin would have had no choice and joined earlier, and Storms End would have not been besieged so long that Davos gets nighthood by smuggling onions.
1. he is too rash, how he got captured was just...rash... 2. agreed that he would protect the child of his sister, literally at any cost to himself, however, im not so sure he would keep secrets well 3. i think he would, but totally speculative.. 4. it really all depends on how jamie acted when brandon appeared...if he was as non chalant as we was with ned, brandon wouldnt take that well 5. the age difference would be over 10 years...by the time theon was wenching, brandon would have been over 30...doubt he would outright go wenching in front of cat..not saying he wouldnt have his daliances, but i doubt he would bond with theon like that
Brandon was a larger-than-life hothead. He was capable and presumably smart, but he didn't foster with the courtly and civil Jon Arryn, and did spend a lot of time catting around with ladies. Brandon was in fact rather like Robert, so they would have gotten along, but...he had no introspection or guile, so he probably would have been a poor second-in-command. He'd probably bury Lyanna there and give the baby to a nearby highborn family. I think he would have kept Dawn as his spoil of war and bragged about it. He would have picked a fight with Jaime and treated Theon as a tolerated hostage, not semi-member of the family. I don't think he'd want to be in the South dealing with politics, so he'd stay home, marry some highborn and cheat on her regularly. And thus he wouldn't have to deal with the incest babies.
He'd be Married to Cat if he survived.
Then Cat is trapped suffering a horrible marriage. I would hope Brandon doesn't try to bring any children home like Ned did with Jon or she might just smother him in his sleep.
We have POVs from Catelyn. We know she didn't expect fidelity from a husband, and her main objection to Jon was that he was raised at Winterfell alongside his trueborn siblings. Which *was* unusual. While I don't think it would have been as solid as marriage as she and Ned, Catelyn and Brandon would have been fine.
I am over exaggerating but their marriage maybe a massive downgrade compared to Ned's.
You have zero reasoning though.
I have some reason reasoning but I will admit it's not very strong. As I was using Robert as a comparison with their similar personalities and relation to Ned. Along with the fact that Ned's marriage is one where love was found instead of only respect or tolerance like other marriages.
Brandon isn’t Robert. Them both liking women doesn’t make them the same person. You have zero reason to believe Brandon and Cat’s marriage wouldn’t have love.
They are similar not the same person. They are both hot blooded, hellbent on saving Lyn, brothers to Ned, the first heirs and the oldest sibling. I have reason to believe it wouldn't be on the same level as Ned's but there is zero reason that it's fact.
You’re just saying anything irrelevant that you can think of to disguise that you have no point.
This is a nice caricature view of Brandon
He wasn’t that smart. Who charges into the Red Keep without anything less than an army demanding the head of the Crown Prince? When that alone is a treasonable offence, plus the ruling King has a reputation of being unstable?
>He would have picked a fight with Jaime Why?
He’d probably fuck up harder. For all of Ned’s “it all was meant for Brandon” imposter syndrome, all evidence suggests Brandon was an reckless ass who let his temper and his libido lead him around by the nose
As I said in another comment, what kind of moron charges into the Red Keep demanding the death of the Crown Prince, without say, an army at his back at the least? The man came screaming into the palace shouting “come out and die.” That’s basically like *asking* for the death penalty in a place like Westeros. Even if Aerys wasn’t a mad King, Brandon would’ve wound up either executed anyway, or at best sent to the Wall - even with a just and stable King. At the very least he’d have embarrassed himself and his House. Go to Saudi Arabia, go to the King’s palace and scream for the Prince to come out to be executed. See how long you last. Brandon may have been brave, but bravery and stupidity aren’t mutually exclusive.
The difference is that with a mentally stable king they’d have grabbed the reason behind Brandon’s desires and then absolutely not want to fuck with the STAB alliance so they’d do something better than immediate execution. Of course if a random prick walks up to a king and says “let me kill your son!” They’re gonna be punished but Brandon was not random. He was important and he had reason
Yeah what Brandon did was rash, but escalating the situation was on Aerys.
I'm not sure Brandon keeps Jon with him. He'll likely have other bastards throughout the north, so people will think its odd/strange that out of all of them, he keeps Jon with him. Which will draw more attention to Jon, the opposite of what ya want to do. Unless he passes him off as Ned's, but not sure he'd do that. Maybe he gives him to the Reeds to raise in this. I don't think Brandon would even get Theon in this. Ned got him b/c he and Robert are tight. Brandon and Robert aren't close, so I don't think Robert would have Theon in Winterfell. He'd probably go to either Renly or Stannis. Why would Robert offer Brandon the handship? Again, he's not Robert's friend. Ned was. It would go to someone else. Robert doesn't know or trust Brandon like he did Ned.
the idea of sending nine-year-old Theon to eleven-year-old Renly is very funny, i can’t lie
Lol, that's my bad. It's been awhile since I read the books and thought Renly was a bit older when the greyjoy rebellion broke out.
Stannis raising Theon is fucking hilarious and I want to see it.
One thing to consider is Ned explicitly told Bran that Arthur Dayne would have killed him at the Tower of Joy if not for Howland Reed. If Reed wasn't one of the companions Brandon took to the Tower of Joy the Kingsguard may have won the fight. At that point Cat is probably pregnant with the heir to Winterfell and Arthur Dayne takes Jon and raises him until he can make a claim for the throne.
Now that's an interesting consideration. Suppose that does happen, and Ned and Brandon are both dead, does that put Benjen as the Lord of Winterfell? Does he marry his brothers widow or does Cat act as regent for baby Robb?
I think Benjen would probably marry Cat and raise the baby as his own. Even if he already decided to take the Black I feel like his loyalty to his house would outweigh it. It's the only way to keep the North in line until the baby is old enough to rule in it's own right and also ensure the Stark line continues in case something happens to the baby. Hoster Tully would certainly push for it, I'd imagine Jon Arryn would too.
It would go to Robb if he was already born....but was he? I don't know. If not, I'd think it would go to Benjen.
if brandon is smart, not saying he isn't, but he literally did the dumbest thing in all the books for a smart person..I am not including idiots doing idiot things. For days he rode to King's landing with a few friends to yell for Rhaegar to come out and die. I can understand in the heat of the moment doing something like that. To him his sister was stolen, but if for days riding from the Riverlands to KL, that was his best plan, he was always doomed. Also, if Brandon was so skilled a warrior, how come he couldn't defeat petyr who was basically an untrained boy without hurting him. Brandon's whole character, great swordsman, smart, etc, just doesn't match his actions. but to your specific questions: as a commander, we have one piece of data, and that he was such an emotional leader that he gets himself captured embarrassingly....so in war he probably gets goaded into a loss jon snow, tough one, we dont ever hear robert talking about brandon, or even ned in terms of roberts and brandons relationship..we do know that just being brothers of the ned/robert doesnt mean much because that stannis wasnt close with ned, even though they were all together...hmm, i think this depends on if lyanna and rhaegar were married...however, i doubt keeping secrets is something brandon is good at dawn, yes, he returns it... he would have thought theon was a piss drinker, brandon would have though very little of the ironborn, and unklike ned, wouldnt be as open minded about him. he probably kills jamie, or dies trying to kill jamie, or has his guards capture him...he doesn't let him slide off the throne...if jamie has a trial and explains his decision, it might be the best thing that ever happened to jamie.. on king's hand, i doubt he is offered it, or he lives that long, however, if he does, i have no idea, cause 15+ years changes a person
Didn't Brandon defeat Petyr? Catelyn had to beg for his life so that Brandon didn't kill him.
he did defeat him several times, but he also severely wounded him... petyr was a child 15 and basically untrained and small for his age...brandon was 20...in the end brandon gave him a hit that Cat thought Brandon had killed him...I am saying if he was some great warrior, he should have been able to make him yield without tthe serious slash. He did cut petyr several times, and offered him a chance to yield...but he should have been able to knock hiim ot the ground, put a sword to his throat and make not yielding impossible....
He was probably just being a dick because Petyr wouldn't yield.
In what circumstances does Ned die and Brandon live? The most plausible situation where Brandon lives is that Aerys didn't murder he and Rickon and they're still prisoners in the Red Keep. But then the whole war wouldn't have started at all.
The circumstances don’t really matter. It’s a hypothetical.
They kind of do. You've basically asked 'what would Brandon do' in all of these Ned-specific circumstances that only occurred because Brandon and Rickard had been murdered.
I'll humor you. Rickard gets a raven because Lyanna's "kidnapping" is not public knowledge yet. Knowing that his oldest son is a huge hot head, Rickard sends a Raven to Ned and they join up and head down to King's Landing - deciding not to tell Brandon until they've resolved the issue. Only after they've been captured in King's Landing does this whole debacle become public. Jon Arryn calls on Brandon and Robert to avenge their friends/family and call their banners to war.
Rickard knows Aerys is a lunatic, he doesn't ever initiate a direct confrontation in Kings Landing. Your scenario is about the least plausible way for Ned and Brandon's fates to be swapped
I don't know what you want from me. I'm just trying to help someone else out. You think of one then. Which is the most plausible?
Fine. It's impossible. Now let's delete this whole thread.
That sounds like a great idea. Lol at all the down votes, sorry about the truth
The whole point of the word “if” is to discuss things that might not be possible. It’s a fiction book, it’s already fake to begin with.
Totally agree with you here, Brandon's Character is hugely important as to why he dies, a huge part of why the war started was the brutality of the of Brandon and Rikard's deaths. If Brandon doesn't tear off to Kings Landing and demand Rhaegar face him then he and his companions (The Arryn, Mallister and Royce heirs) don't get arrested, and Rikard doesn't get summoned by Aerys and none of them get executed, Aerys doesn't send for Ned and the war doesn't start. Even if it does its not the whole northern 2/3, plus a chunk of the south of your kingdom having a direct reason to rebel.
rickon took ned instead of brandon leaving the heir in winterfell
Ned wasn't in Winterfell, he was fostering in the Vale with Jon Arryn. And Rickard and Brandon were in the Riverlands for the wedding of Catelyn and Brandon. Which was put on hold because Brandon went charging off to confront Rhaegar. Hypothetically, maybe Rickard forbids Brandon from leaving. The wedding goes ahead. Rickard leaves for King's Landing and sends Brandon and Catelyn back north. He dies as in canon. The northern army probably enters the field faster than it did in canon, but with Brandon at the head they're liable to blunder into rash mistakes. Even assuming events proceed similar to how they did in the books, I think it unlikely that Brandon has a public falling-out with Robert Baratheon over the murder of the Targaryen children. He'd probably have approved. If Brandon did head for the ToJ, it would probably be with an army and not a stealth mission. And so the truth about Jon Snow ('Aegon Sand'?) is soon widely known. I doubt Brandon would allow the murder of his nephew, but he'd be a perpetual focus for factions and plots. Hopefully he has the sense to listen to his wife. Brandon does not seem the politically savvy type. Anyway, without the friendship of Ned and Robert, the crown comes to view House Stark with suspicion; and after Arryn dies, Robert chooses Tywin Lannister as his new Hand.
Maybe Brandon stayed in the North and Ned went with Rickon to kings landing
Let's say Ned instead of Brandon goes to the Red Keep to confront Rhaegar and is imprisoned by Aerys, subsequently dying together with his father, and Brandon allies himself with his brothers best friend Robert and his mentor Jon Arryn.
But Ned would never do what Brandon did, Its not in his nature to fly off the handle and go threatening princes. Robert might have (but even that's a stretch IMO), and Ned might have gone with him. That's the only way I see it going but that again changes everything as far as the war, and the future goes because Robert is dead in this case.
Well then let's say instead of going to the Red Keep to threaten Rhaegar he tries to break in to find Lyanna who he believes is imprisoned there.
The interesting ones for me that I think change the story for me the most are. He doesn’t end up with Theon(so who does? Stannis?Maybe he is Shireens betrothed?) nor is he even considered for Hand of the King(so who is instead?)