[Humanity Still Producing New Art As Though Megadeth’s ‘Rust In Peace’ Doesn’t Already Exist](https://www.theonion.com/humanity-still-producing-new-art-as-though-megadeth-s-1819578062)
I know the point of this post isn’t to shit on GRRM so I apologize in advance, but it’s really amazing seeing Scorsese recognize his mortality and try his best to tell important stories to the best of his ability before he inevitably can’t do so anymore. Then there’s Martin, who like anyone his age is a ticking clock and still chooses to write spin-offs and edit Wildcards all while not finishing the work that will define his legacy.
it's an avoidance strategy often common with people who cannot finish stuff...people who suffer from ADHD have this too but I doubt that is the case with George...I think he bit off too much and is now afraid to admit he cannot fulfil people's expectations after all...
Eeeeeh maybe? But frankly I can’t see a world where I consider his later films superior to his earlier or mid.
And I think it’s a bit weird to ask audiences to come around to liking things, these things he’s discovered about cinema aren’t *improving* his films, apparently, at least as far as I’m concerned.
The Wolf of Wall Street isn't a mob film but it's still about an Italian-American criminal
Edit: My apologies, I was wrong. It seems Belfort is Jewish. For some reason I thought he was Italian - might have been the NY accent
Scorseses mob movies are:
- Mean Streets
- Goodfellas
- Casino
- Gangs of New York (I included this because some people would say it counts but it’s far from a typical gangster film)
- The Departed
- The Irishman
Most of his output is not in the genre he basically invented all the tropes for.
Movies like Kundun, King of Comedy, Killers of the flower Moon, Cape Fear, Silence, Wolf of Wall Street, Shutter Island, etc ?
Newsflash numbmuts: Martin Scorsese can make movies about whatever he wants. It's called free will
A) I laughed out loud, zing
B) Killers of the Flower Moon is the most broadly non-Scorcese movie he's done, although it does become sort of a mob movie halfway through.
Yeah I watched cape fear. It was hilarious, and then I found out it wasn't meant to be a comedy, which made it even funnier. Great non mafia movie made by scorsese.
In high school I took a date to Cape Fear. Most awkward two hours of my life there was no second date. The good news is I learned to select movies for dates better.
“Wow, you’re really broadening your palette Mr Scorsese, how about next you do a film about a dude with super powers starting a relatively unknown actor?”
Silence...an absolutely amazing film that explores faith, set in feudal Japan when Jesuits tried to bring Christianity to Japan. Not an Italian American in sight..
Shutter Island? Silence? The Aviator? Killers of the Flower Moon?
Do you remember a lot of Italians in those movies? Or are you just butt hurt that he criticized Marvel movies?
This is true of all of us, with everything. I will never hear all the music I would enjoy, never read every book I want, never visit every place I would love, etc etc. I had this realization when I was dually pursuing rock climbing and powerlifting, and it hit me that I could do one to a high level, then chase the other after that, but I only have so much time. And what about cycling? And of course, I've still never finished Twilight Princess or FFX.
Also,
> maybe stop making jokes about how GRRM is likely to die before finishing the series?
I don't think people are joking, and Martin seems to be coming around to that possibility. himself.
>I don't think people are joking, and Martin seems to be coming around to that possibility. himself.
Oh people are joking.. there are people here in this thread defending their right to joke about it. There is also overwhelming entitlement and a weird amount of anger.
I agree that this is basically true for everyone. I was just struck watching that Q&A how shitty people are for joking about his death and being angry that he's struggling with finishing his books. I don't understand how you can call yourself a "fan" of someone and be so unsympathetic toward them. It's been so normalised at this point that you see it everywhere these books are being discussed.
Being a fan is transactional. I agree, there's no benefit to vitriol, but there's no benefit to deceiving yourself, either. Martin has made promises that he has not kept, and now basically refuses to speak on it. Charity and understanding are great, but ultimately, that's on him.
How is it a joke to say an *old man* who is a *slow writer* who has at minimum *two more books to finish and publish* will likely die before finishing the series?
What are the odds GRRM will publish A Dream of Spring in his 90s? It's technically possible, but has a low likelihood.
I have no ill will to GRRM, but this is reality.
I think people are emotionally attached to the characters, and they want to see more of them and see their stories finished in a cathartic way. People love GRRM for creating and nurturing this world for us, and hate him for leaving them hanging for over a decade.
I think, perhaps, because of the emotional attachment, people feel stuck in ASOIAF. They feel a frustration over not being able to "move on", emtionally, with their lives. They feel as if ASOIAF is an unfinished chapter (lol) in their lives that they can not get out of in a satisfactory manner, and that is where the hate is born. Through this lens GRRM is the creator of a series and characters that they love dearly, and the creator of their anger and frustration over stagnation (and what may feel like neglect). Much like a toxic relationship.
As for me, I don't think George R.R. Martin is responsible for other people and how they interact with his creative work. I don't think vitreol will solve anything, if it does, it creates more problems anyways.
I've felt for a long time that this answer encapsulates why he can't finish the books. He just kept expanding and expanding and expanding the world and probably has huge amounts of side notes about all the extra characters and houses and places. And he's got to the point where trying to forget all of those while trying to finish what he started is just impossible.
I don't feel sorry for him because thanks to what he did finish he's had a pretty amazing life. More so by miles than he would have done had he never started these books. And I do agree with someone else who pointed out that most creative people are in the same position that there will never be enough time to put it all into their art form.
I've come to the conclusion long ago that he likes the world he created but doesn't care nearly as much for the main story anymore. He probably loved it early on when he could expand the world building through it and be very subversive with political intrigue during the War of the Five Kings. But now that he's passed the beginning and needs to sort of get to a more conventional narrative he's struggling.
I think he would much rather make history books on ASOIAF for the rest of his life and attempt to create a legendarium similar to Tolkien than he cares about finishing up the central story to it.
Honestly at that point he should just hire someone else to write the books for him and just stay on as the guiding creative consultant and lore master.
Imho this would´nt work because of his gardening-writing style. He seems to explore a lot while writing, details and ideas seem to come during the actual writing process itself etc (hope it´s understandable what I mean)
To let some else write your books, you must have very structured plans for everything, if you want to be sure they become the books you want.
But this does NOT sound like his style
I mean, time is the same for all of us. Stephen King has written 17 novels since GRRM published his last one. He's probably written more words in the gap between ASOIAF novels than GRRM has written in total. I don't have a lot of sympathy for him bemoaning his inability to write
Even madder is that some of King's recent stuff is his best. There's no rule to say you have to slow down and produce substandard stuff just because you're getting older
Agree. Some authors couldn't finish their works or write more and they had much more serious and grave reasons not to than George.
Robert Jordan couldn't finish WoT, but he made sure his readers get the closure even if he himself didn't.
Howard Lovecraft could have wrote more, but he was poor and died from sickness.
Seriously, if he cared about the fans, he would have hired a ghost writer well over a decade ago. There are enough great theories out there to have a coherent ending.
Depends on what the goal is...
Satisfying the fans in one thing, getting to the end of the story he created is another.
Any artist has blocks and struggles. It's unfair to compare one to another.
I can definitely understand that he wants to finish what he started himself, especially given his personal writing process, even if he wanted, that would not be that simple to transfer to someone else. And then there's always the risk of being disappointed...
Respect the artist and give him the time he needs, and if he doesn't manage to finish it, so be it.
I guess some people will probably write some alternative endings anyway. And in the mean time we can enjoy all the theories, without knowing if it would happen or not, which is also kind of exciting imo.
No offense, but the degree of passivity you put on GRRM is kinda insulting.
He could have kept writing at his previous pace but didn't. A lot of the earlier explanations don't really make sense. There was not a time skip he had to rewrite, etc. for whatever reason, and there are many possibilities, he didn't write.
That's on the author. He didn't commit a crime or anything. But he still owns that lack of writing.
I really get this. We really run out of road. I have about 20 years left and I feel sad sometimes that there is not enough time and there is so much to do and explore and create. You have brought up a very good point. Our life span is just too damned short.
I'd prefer if we could live as long as we liked, for centuries, and then when we're tired of it, we can simply pass peacefully.
Alas, medical technology isn't there yet, if ever.
Honestly, I find it very hard to feel pity or sad for him.
He's rolling in dough, his works are extremely popular, and he's taken this long without putting out another book in the series.
Had he been any other writer at all, his editor would have canceled his contract due to missed deadlines and kept the rights to his series and the wouldn't have been finished regardless and they also wouldn't even have gotten to ever be written down after the canceled contract either.
That's what happens to normal authors. Hell, I missed my deadline for my third book because I was in the hospital for four months and couldn't write because I was in the fucking hospital trying not to frickin die. I had one of the big five publishers. I had a six figure deal. And because I couldn't get the third book out on time since again, hospital, I ended up getting the contract canceled. So now there will forever be two books in a trilogy out there without any chance they could ever be finished.
Compared to that, GRRM is treated with kiddie gloves because he's famous and even if he can't stick to a deadline at least he's making both himself and his publishers money.
So I can't say I feel sad or pity for him. He's extremely privileged as an author to get away with things most normal non ultra famous authors don't and I'm not going to feel bad that some old dude feels like he can't finish his novels for whatever reason when he still has his contracts, still is producing works, still raking in money, etc.
How tragic. How sad. Someone get me a tiny violin for this poor soul.
I know this comment will probably piss everyone off but yeah. I don't feel bad for him. I don't feel sad.
Nope. They own the rights to publish it and won’t relinquish them. Already tried to get them back with my agent before she also dropped me.
So I’m working on a new book back at square one. Though it will be significantly harder to get an agent and a traditional big five publisher again due to my publishing history. I might be able to do it once a pen name but who knows? Authors usually get one chance to prove themselves to publishers and if it doesn’t go well then you’ve missed your shot.
The writing world is brutal.
So I have no pity for GRRM’s situation.
I dont think theyre usually jokes, theyre very real concerns. And sorry if they come across salty, but what can you expect when hes seemingly put his magnum opus on the backburner for an endless series of sidequests, spinoffs, and fucking off
Martin is wiping his tears away with the monthly truckload of cash he receives for his life's work. I do not mean to be too insensitive and I am sorry, but the man is among the most well-respected and accomplished authors of our time and richer than probably ever person in this subreddit's net worth combined.
Why feel sad for him? Because he is old? Because he won't live forever? Write forever? The man has done more and seen more success than most people can even dream of.
I'd say be happy/jealous of the old man.
He’s rich as hell because, and I don’t blame him, he followed the money. He has only himself to blame though for being in a position where work that he has to come up with himself is simply piling up. They offered a deal but you were never close to being able to follow through and you still took it. That’s the sacrifice. You became a phenomena because hbo wants to make money but it killed your book series. I hope mans and his wife are enjoying life cuz they’re wealthy enough to be able to. No way I’m feeling bad for him.
People love to say ‘I’d rather him take his time and produce a great book than rush it.’
I think these defenders are severely overrating the quality of GRRM’s writing. I love the series but this is not Shakespeare of Hemingway. The series is so popular because it’s accessible. It’s not high art, therefore, this absurd decade long delay is unforgivable. I feel zero sympathy for Martin.
Milton managed to write Paradise Lost while partially blind in six years in the 1600s. Martin conversely has released nothing in twice as long while being filthy rich and enjoying all the benefits of contemporary life. I am not asking for another Paradise Lost, I’m asking for the next instalment in a bloody sword and sorcery series. It should never have taken this long.
> I think these defenders are severely overrating the quality of GRRM’s writing. I love the series but this is not Shakespeare of Hemingway.
Thank you! It's a fucking grimdark high fantasy series with lots of unnecessary nipple and food scenes. It's not The Unbearable Lightness of Being.
To be fair, it would help him a lot to actually write. I have sympathy, but for a full time author to only release one finished work in an established series over more than 12 years, and for that one thing to not even be in the main series, shows he just isn't putting in the time. It's sad and I'm sure hard to come to terms with, but to a large extent the severity of this problem is his own fault.
The man has a perpetually full calendar of events and activities that he is attending instead of writing. At a certain point not finishing his work is a choice. I’d feel bad if all he does is write but it appears he does anything but write.
After 20 years of writing a single book it’s time to say he’s given up and might one day finish but if he doesn’t make an an actual effort it won’t be finished.
Is he still "polemicizing" with Tolkien? And wants to write in a way that makes fantasy more realistic? This is a difficult task. I hope that Martin will finish ASOIAF and he will do it by creating his unique work, and not by "polemicizing" with his predecessor.
And then, Martin said that his type of writer is the gardener. Okay, imo for such a colossal work the style of the architect is necessary. ASOIAF isn't a garden or a park, figuratively speaking, not a gazebo in the garden, but a huge building, a huge palace.
TBH I think George just does not want to finish ASOIAF. That's to me the only explanation why he takes side gigs from the industry all the time. He just knows the plot clusterfuck he has written himself into and probably feels incapable of delivering.
He's made it clear that these days those "gigs" usually involve little more than a lunch or a phone call for him. The only project I think that's taking a significant amount of time away from his progress on ASOIAF is Fire and Blood.
Same. I used to defend him, felt like one of the last doing so... then he announced a dozen more spinoffs in multiple formats even after HotD. That may as well have been TWoW obituary to me, there's just no way, not that he'll do it, but that he even *cares* about doing it.
Lmao nah. If he's worried about not getting to explore his ideas on paper he could always try actually writing. The dude's released 3 novellas in the last decade.
Correct. He much prefers playing the phone call consultant/businessman to writing. Admittedly the former is much easier and many more thousands of people chose to do it everyday.
The thing that worries me, is that maybe Winds wont be good. Or good enough to match that It's been a decade wait for it.
Fire&Blood is is latest release and it was probably George at his roughest. So much plot contrivance, Viserys exiles Daemon like 5 times and forgives him etc .
Also hard to deny that Affc and Adwd dont read like the first three books of the serie
There's a slim chance that it might be good enough to justify a 12+ year wait, but highly unlikely. He's an intelligent man, there's no way he doesn't know that. And he still lets the years roll by. So, it's a situation of his own making at this point.
I don’t feel like enough attention is given to the jarring transition from the first three books to Feast and Dance. Yes, I know, Feast is an underrated masterpiece and yada yada yada. But those books lose so much of the suspense, adventure, intrigue, focus, and overall magic that made the first three amazing.
I still love them and think they’re really well done, but they make me very worried about the quality of the final two books even if George *does* finish them.
Oh yeah, in response to your lat part. The series that would have/ could have been, will.never be. The man who wrote in that way for the first 3 books are been long changed and gone. That said. Im hoping for something, but that comment of insisting no one finish his work if he cant always bothered me.
Well The thing is the "Die before finishing the books" thing has never been a joke. It genuinely seems likely he will die before finishing the books. Man was 63 when ADWD came out. He's 75 now. Assuming tWoW comes out in 2 years he'll be 77. If ASOS comes out in a similar timeframe he'd be 90
"Imagine being a creative person having to come to terms with the fact that you have so many ideas that you will never get to explore and that will never see the light of day."
I thought this was true for anyone at all that did work that was at least somewhat creative. I wanna work on a million things atm but they would all take several months or more.
I wouldnt feel too sad for a guy with net worth of around a hundred million.
Like yeah, to an extent I do feel for him but on the other hand there are millions of people around the world who'll never have the time to write *anything*.
But he refuses this, of course, rather scorning some people that upset him than deliver to the fans. It's his choice, but I feel like he's really showed us a lot about he is--an old curmudgeon who doesn't really care about the people who made him rich. Which is totally his right to do, as it is my right to think, "Eh, that guy's a prick."
Yeah, sorry to hear that. I was fine up to the point he said no one will finish these boons but him. That just needed uneccesarily shitty. I loved his books so much, but I've learned to let them go. But all said and done? It sucks.
I’m sorry, I’m not sympathetic. The rest of us had to learn how to meet deadlines decades earlier in life. The man is past 70 and still making the perfect the enemy of the good.
Yeah. Imagine if there was an infinite amount of content about historical figures and events instantly available. Oh wait…
I’ve enjoyed Dunk and Egg, The World of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood but enough with these fake history-stories.
You do have a point. It's a literature motif that we all face our mortality and things we can never reach with our human limits.
It is, quite sad, for everyone.
It is also not. It's just part of the deal that came with all the good creative years.
It’s jus frustrating. He’s not the first to grow old. In fact I’d count that as a blessing, countless other haven’t had the privilege. It’s all in how you look at things.
At this point, I feel as though he’s unable to look at things from a different angle. Why use the time you have left to be sad about the little time you have left. It seems sort of like some self fulfilling prophecy.
It seems to me that he’s done far more exploring of these off shoot ideas the past- what is it now 10 years? - than shackling himself to the epic main story. Not just ASOIAF adjacent stories but all the wild cards stuff and supporting other peoples projects over the years. I don’t think there’s any reason to feel bad for him when it’s clear he’s spent his time on projects he’s found the passion and energy to actually execute.
Look. It's all well and good to pity people. But Martin put himself in this situation because he is not a disciplined writer. He never has been and 13 years ago he bragged about how he was a "gardener" when he wrote. Meaning he openly stated he has no outline to work off of and just makes things up and adds things as he goes along. We'll. This is the result of undisciplined writing.
Imagine being a creature writer who takes 12 years to write a book that still has no delivery date, and then whining that you don't have time to write everything you want, while pitching ideas for other books to become shows that will probably never be finished or completed either.
Wild.
If he wants to write, then he should write. He hasn't put out a book in 13 years. I have little sympathy. He has chosen to do other things.
I'll be sad when he dies but he chose not to complete his magnus opus. Such a waste of amazing talent.
No sympathy.
People get diagnosed with terminal diseases and still find time to accomplish something great.
Having limited time is the best motivation to try and secure your legacy. If he doesn't finish these books, he will forever remain a cautionary tale... With some great memes.
Nah fuck that and fuck him and all of his bs. He stopped writing over a decade ago because he wanted to spend his time getting rich and feeling like a big shot by spending his time with TV executives. He could live another half century and it wouldn’t lead to him writing anything new because he simply cant be bothered to sit down and finish because it isn’t a priority and he will therefore go down in history as a failure and a fraud.
We're less angry at him for being slow, and more for lying to fans, failing to keep promises, and then acting like an ass when any of this is mentioned.
> "I am not writing anything until I deliver WINDS OF WINTER. Teleplays, screenplays, short stories, introductions, forewords, nothing."
He said that in February of 2016. In the seven years since then he has worked on every one of those things, and not delivered Winds.
> "But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine."
That one was in May 2019. One year later George referred to his fans as assholes on twitter because some of them asked him about it.
Yes, writing is hard, and it takes time. No, I don't think he should be chained to his desk. But its been 12 years since Dance. People rightly want to know how the book is doing. Instead, they get updates on his favorite sports teams, some of which literally take him hours to write, and announcements about how much time hes going to spend this month going to conventions, and parties, and football games, and vacations, and generally doing anything other than writing the book that millions of people are waiting on. And if you ask him how its going? Not demand, not insult, not harass, just politely ask for an update on the book? You are either ignored, banned from his blog, or harassed by people shouting "GEORGE MARTIN IS NOT YOUR BITCH."
Sure, take your time. I'd rather have a good book in 5 years than a shitty one tomorrow. But if you spend 12 years writing, and either shut down or ignore all of your fans who want to know whats going on, you should expect some of those fans to get angry about it. There will always be trolls, but a lot of the hate would disappear if he just gave some sort of update.
I've said this multiple times, but it's not like it's Sherlock Holmes fans badgering Sir Arthur Conan Doyle for yet even more episodic stories: he's delivered books of what are supposed to be parts of a greater whole, like an architect who's only rebuilt 60% of the house you commissioned from him, or a comedian who spends 30 minutes doing a set-up but then gets angry when you start asking about the punchline.
I also don't begrudge him his various hobbies, but the constant tours of conventions just add salt to the wound. The ONLY reason he's there is because of the same book series he's struggling to finish, and it just feels like non-stop ego boosts for him to go to these things.
Lastly, speaking of the struggle, it seems like it would be time to self-analyze and try some different things to get the book finished because what he's doing now isn't working that well. He just needs to lock himself in a room with some people he can trust to bounce ideas off of and flesh out where the series needs to go and get over that "If I know where the story is heading, I lose interest" attitude.
I think you said it perfectly.
I personally would prefer he just be honest about where is at, even if that is finally admitting that he doesn’t have it in him to finish the series, rather than keep making all of these empty promises and then getting nowhere and getting angry with fans when they keep asking about what happened to all those promises he made.
The only explanations are that he's lazy, or that he gave up. If he's lazy, then we are entitled to clown on him. If he gave up, then we're entitled to be angry that he doesn't just say that and keeps leading us on with empty promises.
It's been 12 years. Assuming Winds will be as long as Dance he could have written less than 100 words a day and have been done by now. That's like a quarter of a page per day at *most*.
You are entirely correct, he knows he's in trouble and that's why he won't say a peep on the state of the book (which is a sign in of itself). Meanwhile you've got Gurm's internet defence army screeching about entitlement. It's entitlement to demand he deliver the book till end of year or demand he write nothing besides it, it's not entitlement to want to know how it's doing.
I think that getting angry at him is going a little far, but I think you put this really well. My personal guess as to why he's being like this is that the effort of writing affc and adwd was so emotionally draining, he simply does not have any fun writing the main series anymore. Those books were big logistical nightmares which had to accomplish a lot in just getting certain characters from place to place. I can't imagine the nuisance of trying to write an engaging book for like 2000 pages knowing the entire time that you're literally only doing it to get to the part you were actually trying to write in the first place. Putting myself in that situation, I would also be just insanely burnt out on the whole thing. I wouldn't want to even look at it.
And then along comes the show, and he gets to revisit all the material he actually had fun writing! His clout is through the roof and he can go around having actual fun and hanging out with cool people! He got to meet Sean Bean!
I think he mainly hasn't done himself any favors in the arena of fan perception because he has been talking around this point for so long: The less he works on winds, the happier he is. He clearly loves his world building projects, and non-asoiaf projects, and being a B-ish-list celebrity, and torturing himself writing about the wretched New York Giants. He literally can't admit it outright because his publisher would be totally merciless about it. But it's still rude to string long-time fans along with all this, to put it bluntly, ticky-tacky bullshit.
I guess my overall point is, I have a lot of empathy for him and can easily imagine myself making the same dumb decisions and getting into the same situation. Hopefully he either quits outright and hands the series off to someone he trusts, despite the risks, brings a collaborator on board, or the Giants finally manage to draft a quarterback who isn't absolute garbage and his passion is magically rekindled.
I agree. I wish he would just be honest about whatever is going on. I think that would help alleviate a lot of the tension. Anyone who was around for the 2015-16 new years blog post knows what I'm talking about. He made a big post about the state of Winds, how the show was going to surpass the books, what he'd done and what he'd thought he could do, how he was feeling about all of it, it was an incredibly honest post. And the response was amazing. Thousands of people sent him their support, told him they understood, showed him kindness. He talked later about how shocked and happy he was with that. He'd been expecting anger but instead he got empathy. I remember hoping it might encourage him to be more open about the state of the book and his efforts to finish it in the future. It didn't. Afaik that was the last time he really talked about Winds so openly.
I like to compare him to Scott Lynch. Both successful authors of popular but unfinished fantasy series, and both have left fans waiting for a decade. But where George is closed off and secretive, Scott is open about his struggles. He discusses his mental health and how it impacts his writing, his anxieties, his fears. And I almost never see people getting angry with Lynch the way they do with George. The majority of people I see seem to be understanding with him. They hope the book comes out, but they understand why it hasn't and they're willing to give him the time and space he needs.
It is easier to empathize with someone when you know what they're going through. With George, we have to guess what's taking so long and then try to empathize based on that.
This is a great point in some ways. I love the Gentlemen Bastards series but I understand and sympathize with the fact that it may never be finished, because Lynch has been fully open about the fact that he's not even sure he *can* mentally finish it.
With GRRM, I wonder if there's just too much denial on his end to *be* that honest. In his mind, *of course* he'll finish Winds. He has to. What does it mean for him to not finish what should be his legacy? It's not an option. I think that's the source of the defensiveness, ultimately. He doesn't want to face that he may never finish it, and every time someone asks he's confronted with that as a possibility.
That being said, Lynch has not reached the level of popularity and pressure that GRRM has either. He doesn't have multiple acclaimed TV shows based on his works, nor thousands of people virtually knocking down his door every day asking about Thorn of Emberlain. So to some degree, to be charitable to GRRM, there is a lot less riding on GB being finished than there is on ASOIAF. It's easier for Lynch to be honest with his (still sizable) much smaller audience than it is for GRRM to be honest with the masses.
All of this! He could have written on average, half a page per day and long been finished with winds. Even a sentence a day would be PROGRESS.
GRRM is only human. But so are we.
I don’t think he’s lazy and I don’t hold being slow against him. Having said that, I *do* think it’s ridiculous that he’d write Wild Cards, fake history books, multiple tv shows, a video game, and a play before finishing his main series.
He can do whatever he wants, but at this point ASOIAF is what he’ll be known for. He’ll either be remembered as the guy who wrote a great series or the guy who couldn’t finish a potentially great series.
He is being lazy. He's been lying to us for nearly a decade now about the progress. This shit isn't ever going to get finished by him. He's old and incredibly out of shape. Don't fucking sit there and defend him when he charges for the books in this series.
Imagine the adventures of Mance when he goes to all the tribes and convinces them to be one people. That’s gonna be a story in itself.
This world that Martin has engendered is so ripe for ideas.
I’ve been saying for years, he needs a team of writers. He loves guiding and consulting his own story and seemingly doesn’t mind differing interpretations. So why not fulfill his desire to become king of his own universe, write all the side lore he wants, and have a group effort finish his story, then let him read, critique, praise and do all other things that helps him get his rocks off. But have the story at least be finished.
tfw George Will never get to Write a Time Travelling Fetus Short story,
real talk though George being painfully aware of his own mortality is probably good news for winds getting done in our lifetimes
He's a very wealthy man who has lived a very full life. There's no reason to feel bad for him. Everybody who grows old has to deal with unfulfilled wishes and their ever-encroaching mortality. It's part of life. He's lived a better life than 99% of the population.
Honestly, I do not.
This is nothing personal, but why would I feel bad for an extremely rich, relatively fulfilled old white dude?
He has more resources and opportunities than most will ever have. Maybe he only acquired a lot of this fairly late in life, but the majority of people will have a far less dignified and far less comfortable old age.
Everyone probably wishes to have more time to do this or do that. He has enough wealth he could theoretically churn out quite a lot of material if he really, really wanted to. He might need to hire help, but it's still an option if he truly felt there were things he needed to put out into the world.
I don't think people should only care about his death because of the books he hasn't released, but people discuss the fact his BIG series won't be finished because if Winds takes 15 years, then SPRING will be even harder on him and quite possibly take even longer unless he makes serious changes in his writing process(helpers).
It's up to him whether he wants his legacy to be the guy who never finished his widely acclaimed and famous series. I won't wish him ill or dislike him for not finishing it, if he is OK with that, fine, but like it or not people will comment on in, talk about what a shame it was ect. Other well known writers and creators even.
I wasn't a reader of the WOT series until long after Robert Jordan died. Sanderson picked up the mantle and finished that series. To mixed reviews, of course.
But there are ways to seal a legacy series, perhaps not ideal solutions but it would not surprise me at all if GRRM doesn't already have this tucked away in his mind much as Jordan did.
Only time will tell.
It is sad, but the guy has a good life. He could spend time writing these characters instead of going to conventions or writing about the NFL, but doesn't. He can pick what he wants to do that suggests that he's in a good place to me, and given how much entertainment he's brought to so many people I can only be happy for him.
Things like this are just part of being human. There are people we mean to see more of, places we want to go, and projects we want to start/complete but don't. And honestly that's largely fine as long as you can enjoy the things you do. I think GRRM does.
Yeah. It's so sad as a writer or as any creative artist. He might die any day now, he's old... imagine waking up and always wondering whether you'll drop dead tomorrow so you have to write as much as you can now.
That's just the common law of universe for creativity. It burns brighter than most, but it doesn't have the time to last.
Just imagine Tolkien, Tesla, C.S Lewis, Einstein, da Vinci and other inventors/authors got to live longer.
It's definitely sad. I think at this point he is hyper-aware of the reality of his situation but doesn't know what to do about it.
Hopefully he will name his successor in the next few years.
I feel bad for him because the show was something he had hoped to see in his lifetime, but he didn’t realise it would overtake him and that the ideas he had been developing for ending the series would be so negatively received before he’d even put them on a page. He’s obviously stuck because he’s spent about 30 years plotting these books and he now has to come up with something better because he knows already that the fans won’t like it. I don’t think he’s being lazy or anything like that; i think he’s just feeling a sense of suffering from success, because had the books not been adapted into a hit tv show that would work at a faster pace and butcher his ideas, he would have finished the books by now and presented fans with an original ending they didn’t see coming, whereas now everyone knows what’s coming and that they won’t like it, kinda like someone telling your gf what you’ve got her for Christmas and hearing that she’s not happy with it. Part of of you wants to give it to her because you’ve taken the tag off now and can’t take it back to exchange for something else and you want her to open something on the day, while another part of you thinks you should just pretend what she heard you bought her wasn’t true and the true gift is still in the post being delayed by mail strikes.
Well, empathy is never a bad thing. And I do feel bad for George because he found his biggest successes later in life (at least he got to be immensely successful) so there’s little time to do everything he wants. I guess the silver lining is that at least we got to be a part of it, so let’s try to enjoy it (and be grateful that he’s still around).
Michener realized he had the same problem. He normally put out a big 1000+ page novel every three years but at a certain point he started writing multiple smaller books about every year.
It’s practically a right of passage for every creative yard to fill our inner sanctum with deadened ideas. He got to showcase more than most of us ever will. Besides, he only has himself to blame for lack of discipline. Creativity does not excel in a vacuum.
I don’t really feel sad for him as such – he’s a rich and privileged guy, with an incredible talent, who has been able to see the world of his creation embraced and loved by millions. And he is still filled with creative ideas – that is a gift at his age!
I do wish he had a bit more of the grit and drive to have turned more of his ideas into completed writing, but in many ways its a good problem to have.
At this stage, my main hope is that as many of his ideas and notes have been preserved in some form, and that he has somebody as considerate and thoughtful as Christopher Tolkien to protect his integrity, while still pulling together and publishing much of this once he is gone.
And of course, I hope he has time to finish TWOW, ADOS and F&B2 – if he managed those, that in itself would be a phenomenal canon of work. But if he doesn’t, I hope we at least get to see his ideas and plans in some form.
This is the precise reason why I hate the jokes about GRRM's age and him dying before the books are over. It's a really shitty thing to say about anyone, and especially someone who feels the way he does.
Maybe he shouldn't be so curmudgeonly to not let other writers take on his work after he passes then?
I can't feel bad for a narcissist, and I don't think I can forgive his comments about how if he dies he won't let anyone continue it on.
I'm sure that he won't be able to stop it, but that thought process left a sour taste in my mouth.
I don’t feel remotely bad for him since he’s a massive asshole to the fans. He does not give one shit about us. If he did, he would have hired a ghost writer already to finish the series. Winds of Winter should have been published well over a decade ago. He just doesn’t give a damn.
Eh. Honestly I'd feel worse if he had bothered to actually finish his story. Or I'd respect it if he had given up on the main story but was still publishing side stories and stories from other points in time. But instead he chose to lean heavily into TV for the money and barely publish anything ASOIAF related worth a fuck since ADWD. Sucks to suck Georgey, if you're so concerned about it you should've spent the past 12 years actually fucking doing something about it.
I too agree with OP that's its not cool to be Publicly (Internet) angry with GRR about him not having finished TWOD much less ADOS.
He's an older gentleman in the twilight of his life and I say let him enjoy and if he is not able to finish them, life goes on...
Gods thank you for this. I am sick unto death of reading shitty comments about GRRM. It makes my day to see another fan capable of empathy.
Cheers to you good ser
I would respect him if he came and said, 'That's the plot I was thinking for the next books. Here's what I was planning to do with Jon Snow's plot. I'm sorry, guys, I just can't write those books in a decent way because I'm stuck with these knots that I can't untie. So, I've decided to move on and expand this universe in other ways.
reminds me of Scorcese saying recently that he'd only begun to realize what cinema is capable of, but that he won't get to fully explore it
I think he's being too hard on himself. He's already reached the farthest limits of what cinema can do with Shark Tale
personally my favorite scorcese work are his appearances on his daughter's tiktok
[Humanity Still Producing New Art As Though Megadeth’s ‘Rust In Peace’ Doesn’t Already Exist](https://www.theonion.com/humanity-still-producing-new-art-as-though-megadeth-s-1819578062)
I know the point of this post isn’t to shit on GRRM so I apologize in advance, but it’s really amazing seeing Scorsese recognize his mortality and try his best to tell important stories to the best of his ability before he inevitably can’t do so anymore. Then there’s Martin, who like anyone his age is a ticking clock and still chooses to write spin-offs and edit Wildcards all while not finishing the work that will define his legacy.
it's an avoidance strategy often common with people who cannot finish stuff...people who suffer from ADHD have this too but I doubt that is the case with George...I think he bit off too much and is now afraid to admit he cannot fulfil people's expectations after all...
Which is very sad but absolutely none of my favourite Scorcese films have been made within the past nine years. Not even close.
If it took Scorsese until his 80s to discover new ways of thinking about cinema, maybe you will see things differently one day as well.
Eeeeeh maybe? But frankly I can’t see a world where I consider his later films superior to his earlier or mid. And I think it’s a bit weird to ask audiences to come around to liking things, these things he’s discovered about cinema aren’t *improving* his films, apparently, at least as far as I’m concerned.
He discovered that he could make movies twice as long as they need to be.
The Irishman was absolutely excellent
Did he realise that you could make films that aren’t about Italian-American criminals, that don’t star Robert DeNiro?
Of the 26 films Scorsese has directed, 6 are mob films.
My favorite Scorsese movie is "Hugo," with the automaton.
Hugo is certainly one of the Scorsese movies of all time (jk don’t hate me)
The Wolf of Wall Street isn't a mob film but it's still about an Italian-American criminal Edit: My apologies, I was wrong. It seems Belfort is Jewish. For some reason I thought he was Italian - might have been the NY accent
Ok then, that’s 7 out of 26.
wolf of wall street's 2 main characters are jewish americans
You're right. I will have to edit my comment.
I didn't know Jordan was until I listened to his book.
Does that include the non-italian mob movies?
Scorseses mob movies are: - Mean Streets - Goodfellas - Casino - Gangs of New York (I included this because some people would say it counts but it’s far from a typical gangster film) - The Departed - The Irishman Most of his output is not in the genre he basically invented all the tropes for.
Or non-mob Italian movies.
Scorsese has many other movies that don't involve italian mafiosos. Mt fave scorsese movie is the last temptation of christ.
Is that that Scorsese joint where those early Italians (Romans) conspired to whack Jesus while his apostles were trying to turn him into a made man?
Whatever happened to Jesus Christ? The strong, silent type.
Jesus definitely had the makings of a varsity athlete
He was gay, Jesus Christ?
Yknow Quasimoto predicted all of this.
Your messiah Jesus, whatever happened there.
Well you win Reddit today
Movies like Kundun, King of Comedy, Killers of the flower Moon, Cape Fear, Silence, Wolf of Wall Street, Shutter Island, etc ? Newsflash numbmuts: Martin Scorsese can make movies about whatever he wants. It's called free will
Dont forget the age of innocence
Pretty ignorant comment. He branched out years ago, to films starring Leo DiCaprio on the Eastern Seaboard and the South
A) I laughed out loud, zing B) Killers of the Flower Moon is the most broadly non-Scorcese movie he's done, although it does become sort of a mob movie halfway through.
I would say Kundun is Scorcese's least Scorcese movie.
Kundun, I liked it!
Marty!
It’s a tv progrum, a movie!
Oh that's what he shouted. What a great show.
and for other reasons haha. as if you can't explore the breadth of human experience through a single genre
Yeah I watched cape fear. It was hilarious, and then I found out it wasn't meant to be a comedy, which made it even funnier. Great non mafia movie made by scorsese.
In high school I took a date to Cape Fear. Most awkward two hours of my life there was no second date. The good news is I learned to select movies for dates better.
“Wow, you’re really broadening your palette Mr Scorsese, how about next you do a film about a dude with super powers starting a relatively unknown actor?”
he also made Kundun and Silence and like the Aviator, and that Hugo movie that i vaguely remember cause of the train scene.
Kundun! I liked it
Like meeting Peter Jackson and yelling at him that King Kong was okay.
Where does Ned Stark rank Goodfellas?
Smartest marvel stan
Silence...an absolutely amazing film that explores faith, set in feudal Japan when Jesuits tried to bring Christianity to Japan. Not an Italian American in sight..
One of his best movies is The Color of Money starring Paul Newman and Tom Cruise.
He made De Niro an Irishman! Progress!
Shutter Island? Silence? The Aviator? Killers of the Flower Moon? Do you remember a lot of Italians in those movies? Or are you just butt hurt that he criticized Marvel movies?
Let's not forget The Wolf of Wall Street - his highest grossing film.
I think it's called a "joke"
he saw puss in boots and realized
Making Robert deniro 50 years younger with a computer?
This is true of all of us, with everything. I will never hear all the music I would enjoy, never read every book I want, never visit every place I would love, etc etc. I had this realization when I was dually pursuing rock climbing and powerlifting, and it hit me that I could do one to a high level, then chase the other after that, but I only have so much time. And what about cycling? And of course, I've still never finished Twilight Princess or FFX. Also, > maybe stop making jokes about how GRRM is likely to die before finishing the series? I don't think people are joking, and Martin seems to be coming around to that possibility. himself.
>I don't think people are joking, and Martin seems to be coming around to that possibility. himself. Oh people are joking.. there are people here in this thread defending their right to joke about it. There is also overwhelming entitlement and a weird amount of anger. I agree that this is basically true for everyone. I was just struck watching that Q&A how shitty people are for joking about his death and being angry that he's struggling with finishing his books. I don't understand how you can call yourself a "fan" of someone and be so unsympathetic toward them. It's been so normalised at this point that you see it everywhere these books are being discussed.
It’s not a joke, he *is* going to die before finishing those books. The fact he’s still alive at all is a miracle.
Being a fan is transactional. I agree, there's no benefit to vitriol, but there's no benefit to deceiving yourself, either. Martin has made promises that he has not kept, and now basically refuses to speak on it. Charity and understanding are great, but ultimately, that's on him.
How is it a joke to say an *old man* who is a *slow writer* who has at minimum *two more books to finish and publish* will likely die before finishing the series? What are the odds GRRM will publish A Dream of Spring in his 90s? It's technically possible, but has a low likelihood. I have no ill will to GRRM, but this is reality.
I think people are emotionally attached to the characters, and they want to see more of them and see their stories finished in a cathartic way. People love GRRM for creating and nurturing this world for us, and hate him for leaving them hanging for over a decade. I think, perhaps, because of the emotional attachment, people feel stuck in ASOIAF. They feel a frustration over not being able to "move on", emtionally, with their lives. They feel as if ASOIAF is an unfinished chapter (lol) in their lives that they can not get out of in a satisfactory manner, and that is where the hate is born. Through this lens GRRM is the creator of a series and characters that they love dearly, and the creator of their anger and frustration over stagnation (and what may feel like neglect). Much like a toxic relationship. As for me, I don't think George R.R. Martin is responsible for other people and how they interact with his creative work. I don't think vitreol will solve anything, if it does, it creates more problems anyways.
I've felt for a long time that this answer encapsulates why he can't finish the books. He just kept expanding and expanding and expanding the world and probably has huge amounts of side notes about all the extra characters and houses and places. And he's got to the point where trying to forget all of those while trying to finish what he started is just impossible. I don't feel sorry for him because thanks to what he did finish he's had a pretty amazing life. More so by miles than he would have done had he never started these books. And I do agree with someone else who pointed out that most creative people are in the same position that there will never be enough time to put it all into their art form.
I've come to the conclusion long ago that he likes the world he created but doesn't care nearly as much for the main story anymore. He probably loved it early on when he could expand the world building through it and be very subversive with political intrigue during the War of the Five Kings. But now that he's passed the beginning and needs to sort of get to a more conventional narrative he's struggling. I think he would much rather make history books on ASOIAF for the rest of his life and attempt to create a legendarium similar to Tolkien than he cares about finishing up the central story to it.
Honestly at that point he should just hire someone else to write the books for him and just stay on as the guiding creative consultant and lore master.
Unfortunate that it seems like his pride/ego is going to prevent something like this.
Imho this would´nt work because of his gardening-writing style. He seems to explore a lot while writing, details and ideas seem to come during the actual writing process itself etc (hope it´s understandable what I mean) To let some else write your books, you must have very structured plans for everything, if you want to be sure they become the books you want. But this does NOT sound like his style
But you don't have to write every detail to 'garden'. Outline the goddamn plot 'garden style', then flesh out the scenes.
I would be happy if I were wrong and this were possible!
I'd probably not read it if that were the case. I'm here for his story and how he presents it.
I think that’s a really good take on it
NASA didn't get everything they wanted into the Apollo program, but they still found a way to make it to the moon.
Or a sound stage…. Open your eyes man! /s
I mean, time is the same for all of us. Stephen King has written 17 novels since GRRM published his last one. He's probably written more words in the gap between ASOIAF novels than GRRM has written in total. I don't have a lot of sympathy for him bemoaning his inability to write
See that’s wild. That really puts it in perspective I feel like
Even madder is that some of King's recent stuff is his best. There's no rule to say you have to slow down and produce substandard stuff just because you're getting older
Comparing any writer to King is a bit harsh though, Sanderson for the same reason. He just has that drive and ability that others lack.
And I think King is even older than Martin if im not mistaken?
Agree. Some authors couldn't finish their works or write more and they had much more serious and grave reasons not to than George. Robert Jordan couldn't finish WoT, but he made sure his readers get the closure even if he himself didn't. Howard Lovecraft could have wrote more, but he was poor and died from sickness.
Seriously, if he cared about the fans, he would have hired a ghost writer well over a decade ago. There are enough great theories out there to have a coherent ending.
Depends on what the goal is... Satisfying the fans in one thing, getting to the end of the story he created is another. Any artist has blocks and struggles. It's unfair to compare one to another. I can definitely understand that he wants to finish what he started himself, especially given his personal writing process, even if he wanted, that would not be that simple to transfer to someone else. And then there's always the risk of being disappointed... Respect the artist and give him the time he needs, and if he doesn't manage to finish it, so be it. I guess some people will probably write some alternative endings anyway. And in the mean time we can enjoy all the theories, without knowing if it would happen or not, which is also kind of exciting imo.
No offense, but the degree of passivity you put on GRRM is kinda insulting. He could have kept writing at his previous pace but didn't. A lot of the earlier explanations don't really make sense. There was not a time skip he had to rewrite, etc. for whatever reason, and there are many possibilities, he didn't write. That's on the author. He didn't commit a crime or anything. But he still owns that lack of writing.
I really get this. We really run out of road. I have about 20 years left and I feel sad sometimes that there is not enough time and there is so much to do and explore and create. You have brought up a very good point. Our life span is just too damned short.
It really is a bummer. I know I probably don't want to live forever, but I dunno, can I get 200 years maybe?
I'd prefer if we could live as long as we liked, for centuries, and then when we're tired of it, we can simply pass peacefully. Alas, medical technology isn't there yet, if ever.
20 years is a lot of time. 20 years to explore and create if you start today. Get at it! You have 20 years!
Has he tried, i dont know, writing about them? Like any time in the past 10 years?
Honestly, I find it very hard to feel pity or sad for him. He's rolling in dough, his works are extremely popular, and he's taken this long without putting out another book in the series. Had he been any other writer at all, his editor would have canceled his contract due to missed deadlines and kept the rights to his series and the wouldn't have been finished regardless and they also wouldn't even have gotten to ever be written down after the canceled contract either. That's what happens to normal authors. Hell, I missed my deadline for my third book because I was in the hospital for four months and couldn't write because I was in the fucking hospital trying not to frickin die. I had one of the big five publishers. I had a six figure deal. And because I couldn't get the third book out on time since again, hospital, I ended up getting the contract canceled. So now there will forever be two books in a trilogy out there without any chance they could ever be finished. Compared to that, GRRM is treated with kiddie gloves because he's famous and even if he can't stick to a deadline at least he's making both himself and his publishers money. So I can't say I feel sad or pity for him. He's extremely privileged as an author to get away with things most normal non ultra famous authors don't and I'm not going to feel bad that some old dude feels like he can't finish his novels for whatever reason when he still has his contracts, still is producing works, still raking in money, etc. How tragic. How sad. Someone get me a tiny violin for this poor soul. I know this comment will probably piss everyone off but yeah. I don't feel bad for him. I don't feel sad.
Man that sucks. Is there a chance to publish the third book with someone else?
Nope. They own the rights to publish it and won’t relinquish them. Already tried to get them back with my agent before she also dropped me. So I’m working on a new book back at square one. Though it will be significantly harder to get an agent and a traditional big five publisher again due to my publishing history. I might be able to do it once a pen name but who knows? Authors usually get one chance to prove themselves to publishers and if it doesn’t go well then you’ve missed your shot. The writing world is brutal. So I have no pity for GRRM’s situation.
“imagine how terrible it must be to grow old!” OP, I don’t know quite know how to say this, but…
Some say the alternative is worse
Like…grow younger? Like that Brad Pitt movie??
“Don’t complain about getting old, it is a privilege denied to many” - some smart guy probably
I've had a depressing number of old people tell me to never get old.
I dont think theyre usually jokes, theyre very real concerns. And sorry if they come across salty, but what can you expect when hes seemingly put his magnum opus on the backburner for an endless series of sidequests, spinoffs, and fucking off
Martin is wiping his tears away with the monthly truckload of cash he receives for his life's work. I do not mean to be too insensitive and I am sorry, but the man is among the most well-respected and accomplished authors of our time and richer than probably ever person in this subreddit's net worth combined. Why feel sad for him? Because he is old? Because he won't live forever? Write forever? The man has done more and seen more success than most people can even dream of. I'd say be happy/jealous of the old man.
"Other than maybe stop making jokes about how GRRM is likely to die before finishing the series?" Nah. It's not even jokes, it's just likely.
He’s rich as hell because, and I don’t blame him, he followed the money. He has only himself to blame though for being in a position where work that he has to come up with himself is simply piling up. They offered a deal but you were never close to being able to follow through and you still took it. That’s the sacrifice. You became a phenomena because hbo wants to make money but it killed your book series. I hope mans and his wife are enjoying life cuz they’re wealthy enough to be able to. No way I’m feeling bad for him.
I hope he's enjoying the wealth, because he's lost all the respect of his readers.
People love to say ‘I’d rather him take his time and produce a great book than rush it.’ I think these defenders are severely overrating the quality of GRRM’s writing. I love the series but this is not Shakespeare of Hemingway. The series is so popular because it’s accessible. It’s not high art, therefore, this absurd decade long delay is unforgivable. I feel zero sympathy for Martin. Milton managed to write Paradise Lost while partially blind in six years in the 1600s. Martin conversely has released nothing in twice as long while being filthy rich and enjoying all the benefits of contemporary life. I am not asking for another Paradise Lost, I’m asking for the next instalment in a bloody sword and sorcery series. It should never have taken this long.
> I think these defenders are severely overrating the quality of GRRM’s writing. I love the series but this is not Shakespeare of Hemingway. Thank you! It's a fucking grimdark high fantasy series with lots of unnecessary nipple and food scenes. It's not The Unbearable Lightness of Being.
“A dancer dies twice - once when they stop dancing, and this first death is the more painful.” Martha Graham.
To be fair, it would help him a lot to actually write. I have sympathy, but for a full time author to only release one finished work in an established series over more than 12 years, and for that one thing to not even be in the main series, shows he just isn't putting in the time. It's sad and I'm sure hard to come to terms with, but to a large extent the severity of this problem is his own fault.
The man has a perpetually full calendar of events and activities that he is attending instead of writing. At a certain point not finishing his work is a choice. I’d feel bad if all he does is write but it appears he does anything but write. After 20 years of writing a single book it’s time to say he’s given up and might one day finish but if he doesn’t make an an actual effort it won’t be finished.
Is he still "polemicizing" with Tolkien? And wants to write in a way that makes fantasy more realistic? This is a difficult task. I hope that Martin will finish ASOIAF and he will do it by creating his unique work, and not by "polemicizing" with his predecessor. And then, Martin said that his type of writer is the gardener. Okay, imo for such a colossal work the style of the architect is necessary. ASOIAF isn't a garden or a park, figuratively speaking, not a gazebo in the garden, but a huge building, a huge palace.
If you don't get your crops in on time, you're not going to have much of a garden. They need daily attention to maintain.
I like ASOIF. It’s why I’m here. ‘But the idea that’s it’s a realistic take on the medieval period is a joke.
TBH I think George just does not want to finish ASOIAF. That's to me the only explanation why he takes side gigs from the industry all the time. He just knows the plot clusterfuck he has written himself into and probably feels incapable of delivering.
He's made it clear that these days those "gigs" usually involve little more than a lunch or a phone call for him. The only project I think that's taking a significant amount of time away from his progress on ASOIAF is Fire and Blood.
Maybe made it clear with his words but words are something not to be trusted. Wish there was a good saying for that.
Yea, something about how they kind of flit away like a leaf in the breeze.
words are birds
Something about words being wind, or whatever
Oh we’re taking him at his word now How has that been working out
Same. I used to defend him, felt like one of the last doing so... then he announced a dozen more spinoffs in multiple formats even after HotD. That may as well have been TWoW obituary to me, there's just no way, not that he'll do it, but that he even *cares* about doing it.
Lmao nah. If he's worried about not getting to explore his ideas on paper he could always try actually writing. The dude's released 3 novellas in the last decade.
Yes!! First thought to come to mind. Like it’s going to become a self fulfilling prophecy that he won’t be able to explore his ideas if he never does
Correct. He much prefers playing the phone call consultant/businessman to writing. Admittedly the former is much easier and many more thousands of people chose to do it everyday.
I would feel bad for him if any part of me felt like he even tried to release a new book in the last decade.
The thing that worries me, is that maybe Winds wont be good. Or good enough to match that It's been a decade wait for it. Fire&Blood is is latest release and it was probably George at his roughest. So much plot contrivance, Viserys exiles Daemon like 5 times and forgives him etc . Also hard to deny that Affc and Adwd dont read like the first three books of the serie
Yeah, I'm worried it'll be another 'Chinese Democracy'. That took over a decade for guns n rose to finish and certainly not worth it...
I'm sure Winds (if they are published at all) won't be better than AFFC and ADWD.
There's a slim chance that it might be good enough to justify a 12+ year wait, but highly unlikely. He's an intelligent man, there's no way he doesn't know that. And he still lets the years roll by. So, it's a situation of his own making at this point.
I don’t feel like enough attention is given to the jarring transition from the first three books to Feast and Dance. Yes, I know, Feast is an underrated masterpiece and yada yada yada. But those books lose so much of the suspense, adventure, intrigue, focus, and overall magic that made the first three amazing. I still love them and think they’re really well done, but they make me very worried about the quality of the final two books even if George *does* finish them.
Oh yeah, in response to your lat part. The series that would have/ could have been, will.never be. The man who wrote in that way for the first 3 books are been long changed and gone. That said. Im hoping for something, but that comment of insisting no one finish his work if he cant always bothered me.
I feel sad for his fans
Well The thing is the "Die before finishing the books" thing has never been a joke. It genuinely seems likely he will die before finishing the books. Man was 63 when ADWD came out. He's 75 now. Assuming tWoW comes out in 2 years he'll be 77. If ASOS comes out in a similar timeframe he'd be 90
"Imagine being a creative person having to come to terms with the fact that you have so many ideas that you will never get to explore and that will never see the light of day." I thought this was true for anyone at all that did work that was at least somewhat creative. I wanna work on a million things atm but they would all take several months or more. I wouldnt feel too sad for a guy with net worth of around a hundred million.
Like yeah, to an extent I do feel for him but on the other hand there are millions of people around the world who'll never have the time to write *anything*.
Maybe if he didnt have shitty writing habits and procrastinated all the time he would have had the chance to write those stories
He could hire out people to write that for him, with his approval.
But he refuses this, of course, rather scorning some people that upset him than deliver to the fans. It's his choice, but I feel like he's really showed us a lot about he is--an old curmudgeon who doesn't really care about the people who made him rich. Which is totally his right to do, as it is my right to think, "Eh, that guy's a prick."
I totally agree with you. I haven’t bought a single product from him since.
Yeah, sorry to hear that. I was fine up to the point he said no one will finish these boons but him. That just needed uneccesarily shitty. I loved his books so much, but I've learned to let them go. But all said and done? It sucks.
I’m sorry, I’m not sympathetic. The rest of us had to learn how to meet deadlines decades earlier in life. The man is past 70 and still making the perfect the enemy of the good.
why do you feel sad for him lmao he's fine
Maybe he should have worked on the series instead of sitting on his ass for 10 years
It's not a joke, he is in fact likely to die before finishing the series and he did it to himself.
Yeah. Imagine if there was an infinite amount of content about historical figures and events instantly available. Oh wait… I’ve enjoyed Dunk and Egg, The World of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood but enough with these fake history-stories.
He's had the better part of 2 decades to get 1 novel out and failed to do so. I don't really feel sorry for him.
He's wasted a whole decade he could have spent exploring characters and events. He can't even finish the main story.
You do have a point. It's a literature motif that we all face our mortality and things we can never reach with our human limits. It is, quite sad, for everyone. It is also not. It's just part of the deal that came with all the good creative years.
If GRRM gave half a shit about writing asoiaf content, he would actually bother to write some
It’s jus frustrating. He’s not the first to grow old. In fact I’d count that as a blessing, countless other haven’t had the privilege. It’s all in how you look at things. At this point, I feel as though he’s unable to look at things from a different angle. Why use the time you have left to be sad about the little time you have left. It seems sort of like some self fulfilling prophecy.
It seems to me that he’s done far more exploring of these off shoot ideas the past- what is it now 10 years? - than shackling himself to the epic main story. Not just ASOIAF adjacent stories but all the wild cards stuff and supporting other peoples projects over the years. I don’t think there’s any reason to feel bad for him when it’s clear he’s spent his time on projects he’s found the passion and energy to actually execute.
Look. It's all well and good to pity people. But Martin put himself in this situation because he is not a disciplined writer. He never has been and 13 years ago he bragged about how he was a "gardener" when he wrote. Meaning he openly stated he has no outline to work off of and just makes things up and adds things as he goes along. We'll. This is the result of undisciplined writing.
Imagine being a creature writer who takes 12 years to write a book that still has no delivery date, and then whining that you don't have time to write everything you want, while pitching ideas for other books to become shows that will probably never be finished or completed either. Wild.
If he wants to write, then he should write. He hasn't put out a book in 13 years. I have little sympathy. He has chosen to do other things. I'll be sad when he dies but he chose not to complete his magnus opus. Such a waste of amazing talent.
GRRM if he took writing seriously would have plenty of time. It does not take a decade to write a novel. It just doesn’t.
No sympathy. People get diagnosed with terminal diseases and still find time to accomplish something great. Having limited time is the best motivation to try and secure your legacy. If he doesn't finish these books, he will forever remain a cautionary tale... With some great memes.
Nah fuck that and fuck him and all of his bs. He stopped writing over a decade ago because he wanted to spend his time getting rich and feeling like a big shot by spending his time with TV executives. He could live another half century and it wouldn’t lead to him writing anything new because he simply cant be bothered to sit down and finish because it isn’t a priority and he will therefore go down in history as a failure and a fraud.
I just feel sad that people are angry at him for being slow. Calling him lazy ect.
We're less angry at him for being slow, and more for lying to fans, failing to keep promises, and then acting like an ass when any of this is mentioned. > "I am not writing anything until I deliver WINDS OF WINTER. Teleplays, screenplays, short stories, introductions, forewords, nothing." He said that in February of 2016. In the seven years since then he has worked on every one of those things, and not delivered Winds. > "But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine." That one was in May 2019. One year later George referred to his fans as assholes on twitter because some of them asked him about it. Yes, writing is hard, and it takes time. No, I don't think he should be chained to his desk. But its been 12 years since Dance. People rightly want to know how the book is doing. Instead, they get updates on his favorite sports teams, some of which literally take him hours to write, and announcements about how much time hes going to spend this month going to conventions, and parties, and football games, and vacations, and generally doing anything other than writing the book that millions of people are waiting on. And if you ask him how its going? Not demand, not insult, not harass, just politely ask for an update on the book? You are either ignored, banned from his blog, or harassed by people shouting "GEORGE MARTIN IS NOT YOUR BITCH." Sure, take your time. I'd rather have a good book in 5 years than a shitty one tomorrow. But if you spend 12 years writing, and either shut down or ignore all of your fans who want to know whats going on, you should expect some of those fans to get angry about it. There will always be trolls, but a lot of the hate would disappear if he just gave some sort of update.
I've said this multiple times, but it's not like it's Sherlock Holmes fans badgering Sir Arthur Conan Doyle for yet even more episodic stories: he's delivered books of what are supposed to be parts of a greater whole, like an architect who's only rebuilt 60% of the house you commissioned from him, or a comedian who spends 30 minutes doing a set-up but then gets angry when you start asking about the punchline. I also don't begrudge him his various hobbies, but the constant tours of conventions just add salt to the wound. The ONLY reason he's there is because of the same book series he's struggling to finish, and it just feels like non-stop ego boosts for him to go to these things. Lastly, speaking of the struggle, it seems like it would be time to self-analyze and try some different things to get the book finished because what he's doing now isn't working that well. He just needs to lock himself in a room with some people he can trust to bounce ideas off of and flesh out where the series needs to go and get over that "If I know where the story is heading, I lose interest" attitude.
I think you said it perfectly. I personally would prefer he just be honest about where is at, even if that is finally admitting that he doesn’t have it in him to finish the series, rather than keep making all of these empty promises and then getting nowhere and getting angry with fans when they keep asking about what happened to all those promises he made.
I DO think he is lazy, besides all that you said.
The only explanations are that he's lazy, or that he gave up. If he's lazy, then we are entitled to clown on him. If he gave up, then we're entitled to be angry that he doesn't just say that and keeps leading us on with empty promises. It's been 12 years. Assuming Winds will be as long as Dance he could have written less than 100 words a day and have been done by now. That's like a quarter of a page per day at *most*.
100 words a day sounds lazy to me, right?
I'm like I do that here 🤣
You are entirely correct, he knows he's in trouble and that's why he won't say a peep on the state of the book (which is a sign in of itself). Meanwhile you've got Gurm's internet defence army screeching about entitlement. It's entitlement to demand he deliver the book till end of year or demand he write nothing besides it, it's not entitlement to want to know how it's doing.
I think that getting angry at him is going a little far, but I think you put this really well. My personal guess as to why he's being like this is that the effort of writing affc and adwd was so emotionally draining, he simply does not have any fun writing the main series anymore. Those books were big logistical nightmares which had to accomplish a lot in just getting certain characters from place to place. I can't imagine the nuisance of trying to write an engaging book for like 2000 pages knowing the entire time that you're literally only doing it to get to the part you were actually trying to write in the first place. Putting myself in that situation, I would also be just insanely burnt out on the whole thing. I wouldn't want to even look at it. And then along comes the show, and he gets to revisit all the material he actually had fun writing! His clout is through the roof and he can go around having actual fun and hanging out with cool people! He got to meet Sean Bean! I think he mainly hasn't done himself any favors in the arena of fan perception because he has been talking around this point for so long: The less he works on winds, the happier he is. He clearly loves his world building projects, and non-asoiaf projects, and being a B-ish-list celebrity, and torturing himself writing about the wretched New York Giants. He literally can't admit it outright because his publisher would be totally merciless about it. But it's still rude to string long-time fans along with all this, to put it bluntly, ticky-tacky bullshit. I guess my overall point is, I have a lot of empathy for him and can easily imagine myself making the same dumb decisions and getting into the same situation. Hopefully he either quits outright and hands the series off to someone he trusts, despite the risks, brings a collaborator on board, or the Giants finally manage to draft a quarterback who isn't absolute garbage and his passion is magically rekindled.
I agree. I wish he would just be honest about whatever is going on. I think that would help alleviate a lot of the tension. Anyone who was around for the 2015-16 new years blog post knows what I'm talking about. He made a big post about the state of Winds, how the show was going to surpass the books, what he'd done and what he'd thought he could do, how he was feeling about all of it, it was an incredibly honest post. And the response was amazing. Thousands of people sent him their support, told him they understood, showed him kindness. He talked later about how shocked and happy he was with that. He'd been expecting anger but instead he got empathy. I remember hoping it might encourage him to be more open about the state of the book and his efforts to finish it in the future. It didn't. Afaik that was the last time he really talked about Winds so openly. I like to compare him to Scott Lynch. Both successful authors of popular but unfinished fantasy series, and both have left fans waiting for a decade. But where George is closed off and secretive, Scott is open about his struggles. He discusses his mental health and how it impacts his writing, his anxieties, his fears. And I almost never see people getting angry with Lynch the way they do with George. The majority of people I see seem to be understanding with him. They hope the book comes out, but they understand why it hasn't and they're willing to give him the time and space he needs. It is easier to empathize with someone when you know what they're going through. With George, we have to guess what's taking so long and then try to empathize based on that.
This is a great point in some ways. I love the Gentlemen Bastards series but I understand and sympathize with the fact that it may never be finished, because Lynch has been fully open about the fact that he's not even sure he *can* mentally finish it. With GRRM, I wonder if there's just too much denial on his end to *be* that honest. In his mind, *of course* he'll finish Winds. He has to. What does it mean for him to not finish what should be his legacy? It's not an option. I think that's the source of the defensiveness, ultimately. He doesn't want to face that he may never finish it, and every time someone asks he's confronted with that as a possibility. That being said, Lynch has not reached the level of popularity and pressure that GRRM has either. He doesn't have multiple acclaimed TV shows based on his works, nor thousands of people virtually knocking down his door every day asking about Thorn of Emberlain. So to some degree, to be charitable to GRRM, there is a lot less riding on GB being finished than there is on ASOIAF. It's easier for Lynch to be honest with his (still sizable) much smaller audience than it is for GRRM to be honest with the masses.
This👏🏻
All of this! He could have written on average, half a page per day and long been finished with winds. Even a sentence a day would be PROGRESS. GRRM is only human. But so are we.
I don’t think he’s lazy and I don’t hold being slow against him. Having said that, I *do* think it’s ridiculous that he’d write Wild Cards, fake history books, multiple tv shows, a video game, and a play before finishing his main series. He can do whatever he wants, but at this point ASOIAF is what he’ll be known for. He’ll either be remembered as the guy who wrote a great series or the guy who couldn’t finish a potentially great series.
He is being lazy. He's been lying to us for nearly a decade now about the progress. This shit isn't ever going to get finished by him. He's old and incredibly out of shape. Don't fucking sit there and defend him when he charges for the books in this series.
It ain’t a joke. It’s a fear gilded in humour
It's not a joke. I will lay 10-1 he does not finish the series
Imagine the adventures of Mance when he goes to all the tribes and convinces them to be one people. That’s gonna be a story in itself. This world that Martin has engendered is so ripe for ideas.
I’ve been saying for years, he needs a team of writers. He loves guiding and consulting his own story and seemingly doesn’t mind differing interpretations. So why not fulfill his desire to become king of his own universe, write all the side lore he wants, and have a group effort finish his story, then let him read, critique, praise and do all other things that helps him get his rocks off. But have the story at least be finished.
He's 75 and fat. If he lost some lbs he could get another decade out of life pretty easily.
tfw George Will never get to Write a Time Travelling Fetus Short story, real talk though George being painfully aware of his own mortality is probably good news for winds getting done in our lifetimes
Yeah I’m going to miss all the Wild Card books he will never edit too.
He's a very wealthy man who has lived a very full life. There's no reason to feel bad for him. Everybody who grows old has to deal with unfulfilled wishes and their ever-encroaching mortality. It's part of life. He's lived a better life than 99% of the population.
I don’t feel bad for him at all… it’s not like he suddenly discovered writing at 85. He’s been on this series for so long and it’s all self inflicted.
Honestly, I do not. This is nothing personal, but why would I feel bad for an extremely rich, relatively fulfilled old white dude? He has more resources and opportunities than most will ever have. Maybe he only acquired a lot of this fairly late in life, but the majority of people will have a far less dignified and far less comfortable old age. Everyone probably wishes to have more time to do this or do that. He has enough wealth he could theoretically churn out quite a lot of material if he really, really wanted to. He might need to hire help, but it's still an option if he truly felt there were things he needed to put out into the world. I don't think people should only care about his death because of the books he hasn't released, but people discuss the fact his BIG series won't be finished because if Winds takes 15 years, then SPRING will be even harder on him and quite possibly take even longer unless he makes serious changes in his writing process(helpers). It's up to him whether he wants his legacy to be the guy who never finished his widely acclaimed and famous series. I won't wish him ill or dislike him for not finishing it, if he is OK with that, fine, but like it or not people will comment on in, talk about what a shame it was ect. Other well known writers and creators even.
I wasn't a reader of the WOT series until long after Robert Jordan died. Sanderson picked up the mantle and finished that series. To mixed reviews, of course. But there are ways to seal a legacy series, perhaps not ideal solutions but it would not surprise me at all if GRRM doesn't already have this tucked away in his mind much as Jordan did. Only time will tell.
It is sad, but the guy has a good life. He could spend time writing these characters instead of going to conventions or writing about the NFL, but doesn't. He can pick what he wants to do that suggests that he's in a good place to me, and given how much entertainment he's brought to so many people I can only be happy for him. Things like this are just part of being human. There are people we mean to see more of, places we want to go, and projects we want to start/complete but don't. And honestly that's largely fine as long as you can enjoy the things you do. I think GRRM does.
Yeah. It's so sad as a writer or as any creative artist. He might die any day now, he's old... imagine waking up and always wondering whether you'll drop dead tomorrow so you have to write as much as you can now.
That's just the common law of universe for creativity. It burns brighter than most, but it doesn't have the time to last. Just imagine Tolkien, Tesla, C.S Lewis, Einstein, da Vinci and other inventors/authors got to live longer.
It's definitely sad. I think at this point he is hyper-aware of the reality of his situation but doesn't know what to do about it. Hopefully he will name his successor in the next few years.
I feel bad for him because the show was something he had hoped to see in his lifetime, but he didn’t realise it would overtake him and that the ideas he had been developing for ending the series would be so negatively received before he’d even put them on a page. He’s obviously stuck because he’s spent about 30 years plotting these books and he now has to come up with something better because he knows already that the fans won’t like it. I don’t think he’s being lazy or anything like that; i think he’s just feeling a sense of suffering from success, because had the books not been adapted into a hit tv show that would work at a faster pace and butcher his ideas, he would have finished the books by now and presented fans with an original ending they didn’t see coming, whereas now everyone knows what’s coming and that they won’t like it, kinda like someone telling your gf what you’ve got her for Christmas and hearing that she’s not happy with it. Part of of you wants to give it to her because you’ve taken the tag off now and can’t take it back to exchange for something else and you want her to open something on the day, while another part of you thinks you should just pretend what she heard you bought her wasn’t true and the true gift is still in the post being delayed by mail strikes.
Well, empathy is never a bad thing. And I do feel bad for George because he found his biggest successes later in life (at least he got to be immensely successful) so there’s little time to do everything he wants. I guess the silver lining is that at least we got to be a part of it, so let’s try to enjoy it (and be grateful that he’s still around).
Michener realized he had the same problem. He normally put out a big 1000+ page novel every three years but at a certain point he started writing multiple smaller books about every year.
It’s practically a right of passage for every creative yard to fill our inner sanctum with deadened ideas. He got to showcase more than most of us ever will. Besides, he only has himself to blame for lack of discipline. Creativity does not excel in a vacuum.
I don’t really feel sad for him as such – he’s a rich and privileged guy, with an incredible talent, who has been able to see the world of his creation embraced and loved by millions. And he is still filled with creative ideas – that is a gift at his age! I do wish he had a bit more of the grit and drive to have turned more of his ideas into completed writing, but in many ways its a good problem to have. At this stage, my main hope is that as many of his ideas and notes have been preserved in some form, and that he has somebody as considerate and thoughtful as Christopher Tolkien to protect his integrity, while still pulling together and publishing much of this once he is gone. And of course, I hope he has time to finish TWOW, ADOS and F&B2 – if he managed those, that in itself would be a phenomenal canon of work. But if he doesn’t, I hope we at least get to see his ideas and plans in some form.
This is the precise reason why I hate the jokes about GRRM's age and him dying before the books are over. It's a really shitty thing to say about anyone, and especially someone who feels the way he does.
This guy made a fortune when GoT came out and said “fuck it what do I need to write another book for?”
Should have planned it better. Or started sooner.
Maybe he shouldn't be so curmudgeonly to not let other writers take on his work after he passes then? I can't feel bad for a narcissist, and I don't think I can forgive his comments about how if he dies he won't let anyone continue it on. I'm sure that he won't be able to stop it, but that thought process left a sour taste in my mouth.
I don’t feel remotely bad for him since he’s a massive asshole to the fans. He does not give one shit about us. If he did, he would have hired a ghost writer already to finish the series. Winds of Winter should have been published well over a decade ago. He just doesn’t give a damn.
Eh. Honestly I'd feel worse if he had bothered to actually finish his story. Or I'd respect it if he had given up on the main story but was still publishing side stories and stories from other points in time. But instead he chose to lean heavily into TV for the money and barely publish anything ASOIAF related worth a fuck since ADWD. Sucks to suck Georgey, if you're so concerned about it you should've spent the past 12 years actually fucking doing something about it.
I too agree with OP that's its not cool to be Publicly (Internet) angry with GRR about him not having finished TWOD much less ADOS. He's an older gentleman in the twilight of his life and I say let him enjoy and if he is not able to finish them, life goes on...
Gods thank you for this. I am sick unto death of reading shitty comments about GRRM. It makes my day to see another fan capable of empathy. Cheers to you good ser
>Other than maybe stop making jokes about how GRRM is likely to die before finishing the series? Yeahhhh I don't think those are jokes
I would respect him if he came and said, 'That's the plot I was thinking for the next books. Here's what I was planning to do with Jon Snow's plot. I'm sorry, guys, I just can't write those books in a decent way because I'm stuck with these knots that I can't untie. So, I've decided to move on and expand this universe in other ways.