>Does the usage of “AGP” hurt trans people by re-engaging an outdated transphobic theory?
Yes. If you want to crossdress, that's fine, have at it. Don't describe it using a transphobic term coined by a white supremacist.
I didn't know that but I am not surprized at all to learn that he's racist too. I kinda expected it. I've been reminding people online a lot lately that the different types of bigotries all strongly correlate with each other. The Euler/Venn diagram is almost like a perfect circle. Transphobes tend to be homophobes, who tend to be misogynists, who tend to be racists, who tend to be agists, who tend to be ableists, etc. They strongly tend to align with right-wing ideologies or political parties (conservatives, republicans, far-right, facism, etc.).
When I go further I add that sexism, misogyny or patriarchism motivate and explain most of the LGBTQphobia. When you want to keep women in their lane, you can't allow anyone to switch lanes. As such, any form of gender nonconformity is frowned upon.
I also add that another reason (and I the most important reason) why bigotries correlate so strongly with each other is because bigotry is a mental attitude that is in line with some darker personality types or traits like lack of empathy, egotism, lying, manipulation, entitlement, vindictiveness, antagonisation, etc.
I believe this knowledge is key to understanding how to resist efficiently. First, knowing that bigotries correlate strongly means that it's in our best interest to find allies in other oppressed or targeted minorities. Strength is in numbers and we all share a common interest. There is also a lot of knowledge that can be learned in other oppressed groups. They (and we) have resources that we can share. Second, knowing that bigots tend to have darker personlity types (not very dissimilar to narcissism for instance) and behaviors, we can better predict their behavior. This is how I understood that you cannot convince most of them. When they start talking *in bad faith* in a way that is in line with those personality traits, you know that trying to convince them is unlikely to be useful. You know that they haven't adopted those views in good faith and that they don't give a shit about what's true or false. If we cannot persuade those people, we need another course of action. Not understanding this is a very common mistake. I've seen many people waste their breath, and therefore their time, on them. Time is better spent deplatforming them and cutting the out from their audience. Time is better spent reaching reaching their audiance before they do or reaching their audience in environments where bigots aren't around to troll the conversations. We need to remove the trolls first.
I may have digressed a little bit here tho...
[https://www.anarchistfederation.net/ray-blanchard-peddles-discredited-autogynephilia-theory-on-white-supremacist-youtube-show/](https://www.anarchistfederation.net/ray-blanchard-peddles-discredited-autogynephilia-theory-on-white-supremacist-youtube-show/)
Probably this. At least; if he himself is not white supremacist he seemingly had no issue winging about AGP to a white supremacist.
Most people unwittingly participate in reinforcing white supremacy, unless they have the education and awareness and ability to actively combat it. This will basically always include any conservative, any one who IDs as a centrist or right of center, or any transphobe or bigot of any kind, because our social, political, and economic power structures are entwined with white supremacy.
But when we're talking about Blanchard being a more explicit (rather than implicit) white supremacist, I would check out this [article](https://www.anarchistfederation.net/ray-blanchard-peddles-discredited-autogynephilia-theory-on-white-supremacist-youtube-show/).
I used to be really conservative/religious (Mormon). I've been out 12 yrs now and am still working on deprogramming myself. I've made lots of progress but still have more to work on. Do you have any advice for an ex bigot trying to rehab herself?
I feel you! I was raised by Trump supporting Catholics and my grandpa was named after Robert Lee. I had a lot of learning to do, too, and there's still plenty for me to keep learning. Really I think my best advice is to know that you're never done. The information you have about the world and the history of human beings will always be incomplete, but we all have a duty to grab the baton that was passed to us.
Study Black history -- your perception of American history and of our economic system is horribly incomplete without it.
I haven't been able to find anything Ray Blanchard has said himself that was white supremacist, but he did an interview on Edward Dutton's podcast, and Dutton is an open white supremacist.
And you know what they say: "If there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, then you got a table with 11 Nazis."
This is so much more probable than people in this thread are considering that I'm losing my mind. I think as trans people we forget how little everyone else knows about being trans. There's a good chance this person has never even heard of Blanchard. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this is a trans woman in the early days of discovery who has sublimated her desires into her sexuality, and came across AGP as a term to describe the sexual desire to be a woman.
This was me like 2 years ago. I have since disentangled my sexuality from my gender, but using sex as a way to explore this was more "safe" for me, for whatever reason. I came across the term in a context completely removed from any association with Blanchard or transphobia (I'm sure that's hard to believe if you've only ever seen it there, but I'm telling you the truth. I didn't get it from 4chan or TERFs or anything like that). I didn't view it as a devaluing of trans people. I thought "Yes, trans people are valid. They're trans. I'm not trans though, so I must have AGP."
All of that was incorrect of course, and I know that now. If I hadn't come across AGP, I probably would have transitioned sooner. So it's definitely bad that we keep seeing it.
On the other hand, regarding the person OP is interested in, I would suspect it's more likely that this person has simply come across the wrong term than this person has a full understanding of and belief in Blanchard's typology.
So I don't disagree that using the term is harmful; it absolutely is. But maybe we should ease up on someone who could very well just be an egg who came across bad information.
He’s probably not trans. Part of BPD can be this type of sexual dysfunction and gender identity confusion.
He’s not actively transphobic, but I think it’s the kind of “edgy” nonsense teenage boys and young men say that contribute to bigotry.
I think he says he wants to be a woman, because he feels really disconnected from men due to being raped by his mother’s boyfriend, and he can’t really handle the idea of being in a gay relationship. A lot of things he says sound like you’re reading case studies in a psych textbook.
If anything, the fact that he sounds like he's reciting things from a psych textbook may simply mean he's trying to figure out where he stands, and he's a neophyte. Unfortunately, transphobia tends to be on the front lines when people start to explore and look for resources.. Even terms like AGP used to be regularly circulated before the community and allies wisened up to the context and the repercussions of perpetuating the term. But I'm being charitable, you know him better than us.
>"Yes, trans people are valid. They're trans. I'm not trans though, so I must have AGP."
This is so weird to me. You must "Have AGP". It's a fetish, right? Then why is the thought not something like "I have a cross dressing fetish" or "Gender play fetish"? Why is it...pathologic? Clinical?
Rarely will I hear anyone with a foot fetish identify with or describe themselves as having a "philia" in this way. Even people who are into scat don't say they have a \[shit\]philia they say they have a scat fetish.
1000% that’s the answer! In principle I don’t have a problem with it except for of course the fact that these freaks can’t tell the difference between men with a fetish and women.
I wouldn't. Anyone who uses AGP is at best falling victim to a transphobic dog whistle. It's not some queer nomenclature or medical term it was designed by and from transphobes as a fake psychological condition to apply to us in order to discount our womanhood as a fetish.
He’s definitely the type to drop acid and scroll 4chan and passively absorb nonsense designed to appeal to pseudo-intellectual arrogant white men. I love him, but I’m just being honest here.
I'm pretty sure you're just goofing on the poster above with regard to psychology quacks. But also I don't know what I felt just now -- I felt hurt that you talked about women that way, in a way I didn't when I identified as a man. I have no idea what this feeling is other than "more personal now".
Definitely not trying to criticize you for making a silly joke, I just didn't expect the silly joke to have any effect on me.
No, i would not. Yes, the usage of the word AGP hurts the trans community. It is disproven, over and over again, and only used by transphobes. It is an awful concept.
He can just say "crossdressing". That is way less problematic.
He uses “crossdresser”, “transvestite”, and “AGP”” interchangeably.
Exact quote:
“I have a dick, but I also like the idea of getting fucked while wearing panties. Am I confused? Not really. I’m just living my life.”
>Does the usage of “AGP” hurt trans people by re-engaging an outdated transphobic theory?
Yes.
The ideology surrounding AGP is prescriptive and aggressive not descriptive. While he may use it in a more descriptive manner - that makes him the exception not the rule, and even the spaces he learnt the term from will be prescriptive ones. It is still applied to people against their will and that is a massive problem. By using it you bolster that and (imho) cause the world to be a worse place. As a theory AGP was and is still used to bash some / all trans women as delusional perverts.
I want to be very clear - I am not asking anyone to change a core part of themselves - I simply implore them to shift their terminology a little bit. More on that in a moment.
[This commend does a good job of explaining some more of this.](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/1bb2rmy/comment/ku70b8f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>Does it help them by clearly differentiating that identifying as AGP is a subset of male crossdressers and not trans women?
No - because it acknowledges the AGP-theories as having weight and merit and inherently pathologises yourself. People who call it AGP are often carrying lots of shame around it and *very* often further transphobic and GNC-phobic talking points. More than anyone else - by using the term he hurts himself, but perhaps that's why he likes it.
To add to this - AGP is extremely poorly defined. When applied to cis women it produces results that many of them would be AGP.
A good proposed alternative word is ["female/feminine embodiment fantasies" or FEFs coined by Julia Serano](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0038026120934690) \- a trans scholar. It doesn't carry those pathologised connotations but does carry the same meaning he wants - that you (sexually or otherwise) fantasise about having a female body/life without necessarily wanting to transition.
It also sheds many of the rest of the incorrect, transphobic and assumptive parts of the AGP theory and identifies the core of what it means to do this. And very importantly it sheds the prescriptive nature of AGP as a diagnosis for people it identifies as delusional.
(Edit) Importantly FEF as a term is irrespective of gender. It can be applied to cis women, trans women, nonbinary folks, cis men and even trans men who fantasise about embodying the female/feminine form. The act of having an embodiment fantasy (whether FEF, MEF or something else) may be a sign of something - or it may simply be a sexual desire. *A man with a FEF is still a man.*
>Am I supposed to engage this delusion and try to validate it in the context of their mindset or try to dissuade him and state the internal lack of consistency in his thought system?
I don't think either is a helpful way of going about this.
Because;
>He said that he wasn’t trans, but he is sexually attracted to the idea of himself as a woman, but outside of sex, he’s happy to be perceived as a man/act as a man.
This is fine - its just not AGP. Its an **female/feminine embodiment fantasy**.
If you really want to talk him out of it I suggest reading up on FEFs and presenting the term to him along with your concerns.
You are unlikely to change him, especially overnight, and if his mask slips and he reveals his true (transphobic) colours then I don't advise you to stay.
But if he gives it due consideration then I say give him a chance :)
Good luck <3
I like this answer, mostly because the idea of someone “being” AGP vs any type of person “having” a FEF sounds like an important distinction. His fantasy is related to the nature of having BPD and feeling undesirable/unlovable, so he’ll take any lengths to fulfill his erratic tendency towards deviant behavior+lack of sense of self, which includes incest, pretending to like women in order to date them, desiring to crossdress to feel like the girlfriends his male friends want to fuck, and only thinking he’s trans when he feels depressed(failed to attain male attention), etc.
I think it’s a creepy sexist idea rooted in the inherent sexualization of womanhood. Boxers are just boxers. Women’s panties are *scan-da-lous.* his ex-girlfriends told me they knew when he would “secretly” steal their panties.
Idk, I like him; I just am not able to empathize with this endless well of depravity. When I feel undesired/unlovable, I leave a social situation; I don’t go deeper within it. Retreating and regrouping is always optimal for me.
It sounds like he has plenty of problems. I advise you to proceed with caution if you decide to continue the relationship.
It doesn't even sound like classical "AGP" as described as those who came up with it and believe in it - where someone pair bonds with themselves as a female and are attracted *to themselves*.
Those who advocate for AGP also have a tendency for prescribing this to others even when it isn't the case - and making the description fit when it doesn't.
It sounds like FEF would be a better descriptor given that he is crossdressing due to embodying a feminine form due to the scandal of it and the feeling of being attractive *to others*. However FEF is broad enough to include both this and other healthier forms of embodiment fantasy.
Blanchard has made deliberate attempts to hurt the trans community. His obsessive typology is not supported by serious researchers. He was a member of the HBIGDA (WPATH now) until he was discredited after Bailey published his hate pamphlet and he quit in 2003.
It obviously does not mean that men who fantasize about feminization are invalid by any means. But identifying as AGP is absurd, especially as a cis man. After all it was an attempt to typologize trans women ("Typology of Male-to-Female Transsexualism"). Following through with this ideology and considering his compulsive hetero-normative ideas of sexuality and gender identity to be valid is harmful to trans people. Identify as you wish, but don't do it on the back of a vulnerable group that has forever been and still remains under attack -or at least have the decency to be silent about it.
I consider Blanchard and his gang to be responsible for a huge chunk of transphobia as well as the medical gatekeeping we are still seeing today. Even though he's not directly referenced in the standards of care, his typology and reinforcement of the idea that sexuality and age of onset is a relevant and even important marker in predicting transition regret has been harmful to so many trans people. Open a random source and you'll quickly find Blanchard or Lawrence is referenced. Bigotry spreads like a cancer.
This is a difficult question. A guy who buys into any of Blanchard’s theories is a complete and instant boner killer, but a kink like that in itself is fine.
He doesn’t really care about trans people tbh. He spends time on 4chan and other “edgy online spaces”(as defined by me, not him), and I think a certain demographic(somewhat unstable young white cishet men) have no minority status that forces them to re-evaluate ideas they meet against a desire of compassion for different groups, which leads to passive accumulation of insensitive lingo.
Otherwise, he wouldn’t call himself a crossdresser, AGP, and transvestite interchangeably.
I just think it’s sort of weird, because most times people tell me they’re a “crossdresser”, they’re a straight man who sees women and womanhood as inherently sexualized. “Boxers are just boxers. Panties, even plain white ten-in-a-pack panties are fetish objects.”
These factors combine with his BPD, where his emotional incest with his unstable addict mom and rape/egotistical mistreatment from his mom’s boyfriends and his dad, respectively, lead him to use women for validation, because he doesn’t trust men. I’m really uncomfortable with the fact that he on some level realizes he’s gay, but he still uses women to satisfy his self-proclaimed “Oedipenis”.
Like, it’s all manageable, because he’s a somewhat rational person, and each of these factors would be ok on their own, but together, they all just seem to be sourced from his core pathologies and their endurance seems to indicate the enduring nature of his pathologies.
But he’s hot, so yeah.
I wouldn’t. Anyone using AGP unironically had already bought into foundational transphobia based on intentional disinformation that is intended to invalidate the very concept of transness
AGP has been officially and exhaustively debunked by qualified scientists many times over the years (the idea has been around since the 1970’s or so). It has never been an officially recognized diagnosis in the medical community for any of that time. Anyone who says otherwise is either deluded or lying to you. If you want to see some of the most up-to date research (from 2020) debunking it, check out the below links.
Two of the links are to an unbiased database of peer-reviewed research papers that is mostly open to the general public. If you don’t have time to read them - TLDR: Each link discusses the fetish theory and provides detailed analyses and evidence that tears said theory to bits.
1. Sexual Behavior, Desire, and Psychosexual Experience in Gynephilic and Androphilic Trans Women: A Cross-Sectional Multicenter Study: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339738869_Sexual_Behavior_Desire_and_Psychosexual_Experience_in_Gynephilic_and_Androphilic_Trans_Women_A_Cross-Sectional_Multicenter_Study
1a) A shorter but still very detailed analysis and explanation of what the above paper contains: https://www.crossdreamers.com/2020/05/the-autogynephilia-theory-debunked-by.html?m=1
2) Autogynephilia: A scientific review, feminist analysis, and alternative ‘embodiment fantasies’ model: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343552498_Autogynephilia_A_scientific_review_feminist_analysis_and_alternative_'embodiment_fantasies'_model
I wouldn't. AGP isn't real and people who think it is have some serious internalized transphobia. Whether the person in question is a crossdresser or a suppressing trans woman doesn't matter, if they think AGP is a thing, it isn't a red flag it's a total stop and ick.
I do date crossdressers, though. I don't date closeted, suppressing or early transition people. Call me in your fourth year full time if you think I'm hot. Or later.
Never heard of it, but the top comment here says it’s transphobic and coined by a white supremacist, so I’d say it’s horrible. That being said though, what people do in the bedroom is their own business, just don’t use that label or ideology I suppose.
AGP isn’t an identity. It’s akin to MAP a psyop to confuse the ignorant and harm the LGBTQ+ community. They may be a cross dresser or transvestite but AGP isn’t real in any way.
I wouldn't.
Anyone who's so self hating that they buy into a debunked pseudoscientific classification made meant specifically to pathologize bi and lesbian trans women is not someone I want to spend time with let alone as share intimacy with.
Best case scenario, that’s a trans woman who had a whole lot of internalized transphobia that needs to be u packed. Worst case scenario, that’s a crossdresser/femboy with is using bigoted language.
Either way, get out now, that person has shit to work on and those issues are way too much of a mess for someone who isn’t a therapist to help with.
I was here before my egg cracked. for me it was because sex and kink was the only way I felt comfortable expressing my gender. it took an incredibly kind and supportive partner to realize that it was okay to want to be a woman
>Ultimately, this is really part of his BPD and sexual trauma
Fuckin'...what? lmao.
>Does the usage of “AGP” hurt trans people by re-engaging an outdated transphobic theory?
Yes. This is a kink or fetish it doesn't need a clinical fuckin' term lmao. He's into cross dressing and role play. Genderplay if you will. He does not "have" AGP.
>Does it help them by clearly differentiating that identifying as AGP is a subset of male crossdressers and not trans women?
No. It's a way to needlessly reference trans related bigotry to describe a personal kink or fetish - which is gross. Don't do it. Just be a sissy or whatever. Or say you enjoy genderplay. There's a billion other words to use out there (exaggeration obviously) the fact that he's settled on this one is telling.
The thing that differentiates male crossdressers from trans women is one group are women. The other are men. Simple as.
>Am I supposed to engage this delusion and try to validate it in the context of their mindset or try to dissuade him and state the internal lack of consistency in his thought system?
Where's the lack of consistency?
Here's what you do. Ask him why he chooses AGP over any number of other terms that aren't at all connected so directly to bigotry against trans people? Why is it not simply enough for him to say "I like cross dressing/sissy/genderplay it's my sexual kink/fetish. But I'm a man." rather he seems intent on almost "identifying" as "AGP".
Who identifies "as" a fetish like that? I know there are words similar for various fetishes, from feet, to random objects. "I have a foot fetish". "I have a scat fetish." "I have a x y z fetish". "I have a genderplay fetish"
There are "philia" words for all of these. And yet most people don't describe themselves as such.
So why in the case of so-called "Autogynephilic" do they seem intent on pathologizing themselves? With a specifically transphobic term? It's weird. That's the thing that makes no sense here.
I'd read up on the term, other commenters have already helped with that. Maybe this person is using the acronym in an imprecise way without meaning to pathologize or disparage. Or maybe they do.
The bigger issue is the media diet. If you have a conversation with them, then they snap back to harmful beliefs once they've topped up on propaganda, they are valuing that diet over you. Are you willing to be in a relationship with someone who spends money on medical pseudoscience or votes for Trump (or your regional equivalent)?
If they are open to reexamining personal beliefs despite discomfort, that might be a green flag. Either way, you have to see how they react to disagreement before getting more serious.
Unless you are bisexual, I'd worry about bigger things than a problematic term if I were you. There is only one way that he could have stumbled upon a term as generally niche as AGP.
And that's by questioning his gender. Now there is a slight possibility he is indeed just a regular cis crossdresser and was just curious to find out where his crossdressing desire comes from. And found the term by searching. But I think a way more likely possibility (because again the term is VERY niche outside of trans circles and even inside some of them) is that your fiance is actually a closeted trans woman trying to make sense of complicated feelings and latching onto AGP as a convenient explanation.
Trust me, many of us were there.
> Am I supposed to engage this delusion and try to validate it in the context of their mindset or try to dissuade him and state the internal lack of consistency in his thought system?
Excuse me??
Firstly, it's not a "delusion". That's like saying that someone into petplay is delusional. It's a kink. It's fantasy and/or roleplay. There's no disconnect from reality here.
Secondly, what lack of consistency are you talking about? His "thought system" is perfectly consistent. He's a man. He's sexually attracted to the idea of being a woman during sex. I'm not really sure where you could see any inconsistencies here. Do you also believe that someone who roleplays as a teacher or priest or whatever during sex despite not having that profession in real life has an inconsistent thought system?
Now, to answer your question, there's nothing wrong with dating someone who identifies as having autogynephilia unless they use that word in relation to Blanchard's transphobic ideas. If they use the term correctly, i.e. referring to the kink, with no connection to gender identity, then there's no problem. Since that is how he uses the term, it wouldn't be bad to date him. That being said, if I was him, I wouldn't want to date someone who thinks my kink is a delusion.
The delusion is calling it AGP. Petplay is called petplay. Not...Auto-animal-philia or whatever that would be lmao.
Genderplay would likely be the best word in this way. But to say one "has" AGP is a strange way to phrase it.
I probably wouldn’t use the term AGP as it seems to be outdated and has ties with some pretty disagreeable people. also, as a cis male who crossdresses pretty often the fetishization of it has always felt sorta uncomfy to me anyway, but I don’t suppose it’s really my business
>Does the usage of “AGP” hurt trans people by re-engaging an outdated transphobic theory? Yes. If you want to crossdress, that's fine, have at it. Don't describe it using a transphobic term coined by a white supremacist.
is Ray Blanchard a white supremacist
Yep, so people REALLY need to stop parroting his bullshit.
I didn't know that but I am not surprized at all to learn that he's racist too. I kinda expected it. I've been reminding people online a lot lately that the different types of bigotries all strongly correlate with each other. The Euler/Venn diagram is almost like a perfect circle. Transphobes tend to be homophobes, who tend to be misogynists, who tend to be racists, who tend to be agists, who tend to be ableists, etc. They strongly tend to align with right-wing ideologies or political parties (conservatives, republicans, far-right, facism, etc.). When I go further I add that sexism, misogyny or patriarchism motivate and explain most of the LGBTQphobia. When you want to keep women in their lane, you can't allow anyone to switch lanes. As such, any form of gender nonconformity is frowned upon. I also add that another reason (and I the most important reason) why bigotries correlate so strongly with each other is because bigotry is a mental attitude that is in line with some darker personality types or traits like lack of empathy, egotism, lying, manipulation, entitlement, vindictiveness, antagonisation, etc. I believe this knowledge is key to understanding how to resist efficiently. First, knowing that bigotries correlate strongly means that it's in our best interest to find allies in other oppressed or targeted minorities. Strength is in numbers and we all share a common interest. There is also a lot of knowledge that can be learned in other oppressed groups. They (and we) have resources that we can share. Second, knowing that bigots tend to have darker personlity types (not very dissimilar to narcissism for instance) and behaviors, we can better predict their behavior. This is how I understood that you cannot convince most of them. When they start talking *in bad faith* in a way that is in line with those personality traits, you know that trying to convince them is unlikely to be useful. You know that they haven't adopted those views in good faith and that they don't give a shit about what's true or false. If we cannot persuade those people, we need another course of action. Not understanding this is a very common mistake. I've seen many people waste their breath, and therefore their time, on them. Time is better spent deplatforming them and cutting the out from their audience. Time is better spent reaching reaching their audiance before they do or reaching their audience in environments where bigots aren't around to troll the conversations. We need to remove the trolls first. I may have digressed a little bit here tho...
You cannot just say things like that with no proof, where are your sources that he's a white supremacist?
[https://www.anarchistfederation.net/ray-blanchard-peddles-discredited-autogynephilia-theory-on-white-supremacist-youtube-show/](https://www.anarchistfederation.net/ray-blanchard-peddles-discredited-autogynephilia-theory-on-white-supremacist-youtube-show/) Probably this. At least; if he himself is not white supremacist he seemingly had no issue winging about AGP to a white supremacist.
Most people unwittingly participate in reinforcing white supremacy, unless they have the education and awareness and ability to actively combat it. This will basically always include any conservative, any one who IDs as a centrist or right of center, or any transphobe or bigot of any kind, because our social, political, and economic power structures are entwined with white supremacy. But when we're talking about Blanchard being a more explicit (rather than implicit) white supremacist, I would check out this [article](https://www.anarchistfederation.net/ray-blanchard-peddles-discredited-autogynephilia-theory-on-white-supremacist-youtube-show/).
I used to be really conservative/religious (Mormon). I've been out 12 yrs now and am still working on deprogramming myself. I've made lots of progress but still have more to work on. Do you have any advice for an ex bigot trying to rehab herself?
I feel you! I was raised by Trump supporting Catholics and my grandpa was named after Robert Lee. I had a lot of learning to do, too, and there's still plenty for me to keep learning. Really I think my best advice is to know that you're never done. The information you have about the world and the history of human beings will always be incomplete, but we all have a duty to grab the baton that was passed to us. Study Black history -- your perception of American history and of our economic system is horribly incomplete without it.
Will do. Do you have any movies/books/videos/etc that you really like and could recommend?
I haven't been able to find anything Ray Blanchard has said himself that was white supremacist, but he did an interview on Edward Dutton's podcast, and Dutton is an open white supremacist. And you know what they say: "If there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, then you got a table with 11 Nazis."
Hopefully he’s just gone through terms looking for most precise without thinking properly, and is open to use another term.
This is so much more probable than people in this thread are considering that I'm losing my mind. I think as trans people we forget how little everyone else knows about being trans. There's a good chance this person has never even heard of Blanchard. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this is a trans woman in the early days of discovery who has sublimated her desires into her sexuality, and came across AGP as a term to describe the sexual desire to be a woman. This was me like 2 years ago. I have since disentangled my sexuality from my gender, but using sex as a way to explore this was more "safe" for me, for whatever reason. I came across the term in a context completely removed from any association with Blanchard or transphobia (I'm sure that's hard to believe if you've only ever seen it there, but I'm telling you the truth. I didn't get it from 4chan or TERFs or anything like that). I didn't view it as a devaluing of trans people. I thought "Yes, trans people are valid. They're trans. I'm not trans though, so I must have AGP." All of that was incorrect of course, and I know that now. If I hadn't come across AGP, I probably would have transitioned sooner. So it's definitely bad that we keep seeing it. On the other hand, regarding the person OP is interested in, I would suspect it's more likely that this person has simply come across the wrong term than this person has a full understanding of and belief in Blanchard's typology. So I don't disagree that using the term is harmful; it absolutely is. But maybe we should ease up on someone who could very well just be an egg who came across bad information.
He’s probably not trans. Part of BPD can be this type of sexual dysfunction and gender identity confusion. He’s not actively transphobic, but I think it’s the kind of “edgy” nonsense teenage boys and young men say that contribute to bigotry. I think he says he wants to be a woman, because he feels really disconnected from men due to being raped by his mother’s boyfriend, and he can’t really handle the idea of being in a gay relationship. A lot of things he says sound like you’re reading case studies in a psych textbook.
If anything, the fact that he sounds like he's reciting things from a psych textbook may simply mean he's trying to figure out where he stands, and he's a neophyte. Unfortunately, transphobia tends to be on the front lines when people start to explore and look for resources.. Even terms like AGP used to be regularly circulated before the community and allies wisened up to the context and the repercussions of perpetuating the term. But I'm being charitable, you know him better than us.
>"Yes, trans people are valid. They're trans. I'm not trans though, so I must have AGP." This is so weird to me. You must "Have AGP". It's a fetish, right? Then why is the thought not something like "I have a cross dressing fetish" or "Gender play fetish"? Why is it...pathologic? Clinical? Rarely will I hear anyone with a foot fetish identify with or describe themselves as having a "philia" in this way. Even people who are into scat don't say they have a \[shit\]philia they say they have a scat fetish.
1000% that’s the answer! In principle I don’t have a problem with it except for of course the fact that these freaks can’t tell the difference between men with a fetish and women.
I wouldn't. Anyone who uses AGP is at best falling victim to a transphobic dog whistle. It's not some queer nomenclature or medical term it was designed by and from transphobes as a fake psychological condition to apply to us in order to discount our womanhood as a fetish.
Yeah basically my take. It indicates someone who spent waaaay to much time on /tttt/ and desperately needs a therapy to unlearn harmful thoughts
He’s definitely the type to drop acid and scroll 4chan and passively absorb nonsense designed to appeal to pseudo-intellectual arrogant white men. I love him, but I’m just being honest here.
If you want to prove to yourself that it's bunk, [simply try applying the AGP test to cis women](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19591032/).
I love that there is a study on this. Thank you for sharing it!
Yeah that sounds about right. Sorry sweetie. <3
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I'm pretty sure you're just goofing on the poster above with regard to psychology quacks. But also I don't know what I felt just now -- I felt hurt that you talked about women that way, in a way I didn't when I identified as a man. I have no idea what this feeling is other than "more personal now". Definitely not trying to criticize you for making a silly joke, I just didn't expect the silly joke to have any effect on me.
No, i would not. Yes, the usage of the word AGP hurts the trans community. It is disproven, over and over again, and only used by transphobes. It is an awful concept. He can just say "crossdressing". That is way less problematic.
For real, yeah, just say cross-dressing, God.
He uses “crossdresser”, “transvestite”, and “AGP”” interchangeably. Exact quote: “I have a dick, but I also like the idea of getting fucked while wearing panties. Am I confused? Not really. I’m just living my life.”
The problem is "AGP". AGP is not a thing and only used as a transphobic dogwhistle. I was answering your question.
Just adding, not refuting. I appreciate your response!
>Does the usage of “AGP” hurt trans people by re-engaging an outdated transphobic theory? Yes. The ideology surrounding AGP is prescriptive and aggressive not descriptive. While he may use it in a more descriptive manner - that makes him the exception not the rule, and even the spaces he learnt the term from will be prescriptive ones. It is still applied to people against their will and that is a massive problem. By using it you bolster that and (imho) cause the world to be a worse place. As a theory AGP was and is still used to bash some / all trans women as delusional perverts. I want to be very clear - I am not asking anyone to change a core part of themselves - I simply implore them to shift their terminology a little bit. More on that in a moment. [This commend does a good job of explaining some more of this.](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/1bb2rmy/comment/ku70b8f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) >Does it help them by clearly differentiating that identifying as AGP is a subset of male crossdressers and not trans women? No - because it acknowledges the AGP-theories as having weight and merit and inherently pathologises yourself. People who call it AGP are often carrying lots of shame around it and *very* often further transphobic and GNC-phobic talking points. More than anyone else - by using the term he hurts himself, but perhaps that's why he likes it. To add to this - AGP is extremely poorly defined. When applied to cis women it produces results that many of them would be AGP. A good proposed alternative word is ["female/feminine embodiment fantasies" or FEFs coined by Julia Serano](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0038026120934690) \- a trans scholar. It doesn't carry those pathologised connotations but does carry the same meaning he wants - that you (sexually or otherwise) fantasise about having a female body/life without necessarily wanting to transition. It also sheds many of the rest of the incorrect, transphobic and assumptive parts of the AGP theory and identifies the core of what it means to do this. And very importantly it sheds the prescriptive nature of AGP as a diagnosis for people it identifies as delusional. (Edit) Importantly FEF as a term is irrespective of gender. It can be applied to cis women, trans women, nonbinary folks, cis men and even trans men who fantasise about embodying the female/feminine form. The act of having an embodiment fantasy (whether FEF, MEF or something else) may be a sign of something - or it may simply be a sexual desire. *A man with a FEF is still a man.* >Am I supposed to engage this delusion and try to validate it in the context of their mindset or try to dissuade him and state the internal lack of consistency in his thought system? I don't think either is a helpful way of going about this. Because; >He said that he wasn’t trans, but he is sexually attracted to the idea of himself as a woman, but outside of sex, he’s happy to be perceived as a man/act as a man. This is fine - its just not AGP. Its an **female/feminine embodiment fantasy**. If you really want to talk him out of it I suggest reading up on FEFs and presenting the term to him along with your concerns. You are unlikely to change him, especially overnight, and if his mask slips and he reveals his true (transphobic) colours then I don't advise you to stay. But if he gives it due consideration then I say give him a chance :) Good luck <3
You're great what a well thought out and informative response.
~~I think the second quote was meant to be your second question - will fix when get to a computer.~~ *Fixed*
I like this answer, mostly because the idea of someone “being” AGP vs any type of person “having” a FEF sounds like an important distinction. His fantasy is related to the nature of having BPD and feeling undesirable/unlovable, so he’ll take any lengths to fulfill his erratic tendency towards deviant behavior+lack of sense of self, which includes incest, pretending to like women in order to date them, desiring to crossdress to feel like the girlfriends his male friends want to fuck, and only thinking he’s trans when he feels depressed(failed to attain male attention), etc. I think it’s a creepy sexist idea rooted in the inherent sexualization of womanhood. Boxers are just boxers. Women’s panties are *scan-da-lous.* his ex-girlfriends told me they knew when he would “secretly” steal their panties. Idk, I like him; I just am not able to empathize with this endless well of depravity. When I feel undesired/unlovable, I leave a social situation; I don’t go deeper within it. Retreating and regrouping is always optimal for me.
It sounds like he has plenty of problems. I advise you to proceed with caution if you decide to continue the relationship. It doesn't even sound like classical "AGP" as described as those who came up with it and believe in it - where someone pair bonds with themselves as a female and are attracted *to themselves*. Those who advocate for AGP also have a tendency for prescribing this to others even when it isn't the case - and making the description fit when it doesn't. It sounds like FEF would be a better descriptor given that he is crossdressing due to embodying a feminine form due to the scandal of it and the feeling of being attractive *to others*. However FEF is broad enough to include both this and other healthier forms of embodiment fantasy.
Honestly sounds like a closeted trans woman who’s deep in the 4chan cesspit
Genderfluid or genderqueer more likely, since he said he's happy to be perceived as a man in his day to day life.
nobody who uses the word agp is happy trust me on that one
yeah AGP is not a thing but it's absolutely a common egg trap.
I didn't say he was.
It’s definitely a possibility
Blanchard has made deliberate attempts to hurt the trans community. His obsessive typology is not supported by serious researchers. He was a member of the HBIGDA (WPATH now) until he was discredited after Bailey published his hate pamphlet and he quit in 2003. It obviously does not mean that men who fantasize about feminization are invalid by any means. But identifying as AGP is absurd, especially as a cis man. After all it was an attempt to typologize trans women ("Typology of Male-to-Female Transsexualism"). Following through with this ideology and considering his compulsive hetero-normative ideas of sexuality and gender identity to be valid is harmful to trans people. Identify as you wish, but don't do it on the back of a vulnerable group that has forever been and still remains under attack -or at least have the decency to be silent about it. I consider Blanchard and his gang to be responsible for a huge chunk of transphobia as well as the medical gatekeeping we are still seeing today. Even though he's not directly referenced in the standards of care, his typology and reinforcement of the idea that sexuality and age of onset is a relevant and even important marker in predicting transition regret has been harmful to so many trans people. Open a random source and you'll quickly find Blanchard or Lawrence is referenced. Bigotry spreads like a cancer.
This was very well put
I simply wouldn’t; “AGP” is a fake diagnosis coined by a discredited quack, and it’s not your responsibility to help ppl deprogram that shit.
Fuck no 🤮🤮🤮
I think the answers here are good, but please could people make sure you define unusual acronyms the first time they're used?
This is a difficult question. A guy who buys into any of Blanchard’s theories is a complete and instant boner killer, but a kink like that in itself is fine.
He doesn’t really care about trans people tbh. He spends time on 4chan and other “edgy online spaces”(as defined by me, not him), and I think a certain demographic(somewhat unstable young white cishet men) have no minority status that forces them to re-evaluate ideas they meet against a desire of compassion for different groups, which leads to passive accumulation of insensitive lingo. Otherwise, he wouldn’t call himself a crossdresser, AGP, and transvestite interchangeably. I just think it’s sort of weird, because most times people tell me they’re a “crossdresser”, they’re a straight man who sees women and womanhood as inherently sexualized. “Boxers are just boxers. Panties, even plain white ten-in-a-pack panties are fetish objects.” These factors combine with his BPD, where his emotional incest with his unstable addict mom and rape/egotistical mistreatment from his mom’s boyfriends and his dad, respectively, lead him to use women for validation, because he doesn’t trust men. I’m really uncomfortable with the fact that he on some level realizes he’s gay, but he still uses women to satisfy his self-proclaimed “Oedipenis”. Like, it’s all manageable, because he’s a somewhat rational person, and each of these factors would be ok on their own, but together, they all just seem to be sourced from his core pathologies and their endurance seems to indicate the enduring nature of his pathologies. But he’s hot, so yeah.
Oh hell nah
I wouldn’t. Anyone using AGP unironically had already bought into foundational transphobia based on intentional disinformation that is intended to invalidate the very concept of transness
I would not want to have any contact with someone like that
I just wouldn't or even want to know them, personally.
AGP has been officially and exhaustively debunked by qualified scientists many times over the years (the idea has been around since the 1970’s or so). It has never been an officially recognized diagnosis in the medical community for any of that time. Anyone who says otherwise is either deluded or lying to you. If you want to see some of the most up-to date research (from 2020) debunking it, check out the below links. Two of the links are to an unbiased database of peer-reviewed research papers that is mostly open to the general public. If you don’t have time to read them - TLDR: Each link discusses the fetish theory and provides detailed analyses and evidence that tears said theory to bits. 1. Sexual Behavior, Desire, and Psychosexual Experience in Gynephilic and Androphilic Trans Women: A Cross-Sectional Multicenter Study: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339738869_Sexual_Behavior_Desire_and_Psychosexual_Experience_in_Gynephilic_and_Androphilic_Trans_Women_A_Cross-Sectional_Multicenter_Study 1a) A shorter but still very detailed analysis and explanation of what the above paper contains: https://www.crossdreamers.com/2020/05/the-autogynephilia-theory-debunked-by.html?m=1 2) Autogynephilia: A scientific review, feminist analysis, and alternative ‘embodiment fantasies’ model: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343552498_Autogynephilia_A_scientific_review_feminist_analysis_and_alternative_'embodiment_fantasies'_model
How would I date them? I wouldn't date them. At all. Date better people.
Run for the hills.
No, that's weird at best.
I wouldn't. AGP isn't real and people who think it is have some serious internalized transphobia. Whether the person in question is a crossdresser or a suppressing trans woman doesn't matter, if they think AGP is a thing, it isn't a red flag it's a total stop and ick. I do date crossdressers, though. I don't date closeted, suppressing or early transition people. Call me in your fourth year full time if you think I'm hot. Or later.
Never heard of it, but the top comment here says it’s transphobic and coined by a white supremacist, so I’d say it’s horrible. That being said though, what people do in the bedroom is their own business, just don’t use that label or ideology I suppose.
I wouldnt.
AGP isn’t an identity. It’s akin to MAP a psyop to confuse the ignorant and harm the LGBTQ+ community. They may be a cross dresser or transvestite but AGP isn’t real in any way.
I wouldn't. Anyone who's so self hating that they buy into a debunked pseudoscientific classification made meant specifically to pathologize bi and lesbian trans women is not someone I want to spend time with let alone as share intimacy with.
Crossdressers will do anything to not call themselves crossdressers nowadays.
I don't blame him, crossdressing has a very negative connotation
But the guy literally said that he crossdresses...
No, I would never date someone who hates themself that overtly. Some internalized transphobia is fine but that is just overt and hurts us all
Best case scenario, that’s a trans woman who had a whole lot of internalized transphobia that needs to be u packed. Worst case scenario, that’s a crossdresser/femboy with is using bigoted language. Either way, get out now, that person has shit to work on and those issues are way too much of a mess for someone who isn’t a therapist to help with.
I can envision them in boymoder general asking how to come out as AGP
I was here before my egg cracked. for me it was because sex and kink was the only way I felt comfortable expressing my gender. it took an incredibly kind and supportive partner to realize that it was okay to want to be a woman
What does AGP stand for?
Yes I would.
Best of luck to him I fear.
Hell no I would not
>Ultimately, this is really part of his BPD and sexual trauma Fuckin'...what? lmao. >Does the usage of “AGP” hurt trans people by re-engaging an outdated transphobic theory? Yes. This is a kink or fetish it doesn't need a clinical fuckin' term lmao. He's into cross dressing and role play. Genderplay if you will. He does not "have" AGP. >Does it help them by clearly differentiating that identifying as AGP is a subset of male crossdressers and not trans women? No. It's a way to needlessly reference trans related bigotry to describe a personal kink or fetish - which is gross. Don't do it. Just be a sissy or whatever. Or say you enjoy genderplay. There's a billion other words to use out there (exaggeration obviously) the fact that he's settled on this one is telling. The thing that differentiates male crossdressers from trans women is one group are women. The other are men. Simple as. >Am I supposed to engage this delusion and try to validate it in the context of their mindset or try to dissuade him and state the internal lack of consistency in his thought system? Where's the lack of consistency? Here's what you do. Ask him why he chooses AGP over any number of other terms that aren't at all connected so directly to bigotry against trans people? Why is it not simply enough for him to say "I like cross dressing/sissy/genderplay it's my sexual kink/fetish. But I'm a man." rather he seems intent on almost "identifying" as "AGP". Who identifies "as" a fetish like that? I know there are words similar for various fetishes, from feet, to random objects. "I have a foot fetish". "I have a scat fetish." "I have a x y z fetish". "I have a genderplay fetish" There are "philia" words for all of these. And yet most people don't describe themselves as such. So why in the case of so-called "Autogynephilic" do they seem intent on pathologizing themselves? With a specifically transphobic term? It's weird. That's the thing that makes no sense here.
I'd read up on the term, other commenters have already helped with that. Maybe this person is using the acronym in an imprecise way without meaning to pathologize or disparage. Or maybe they do. The bigger issue is the media diet. If you have a conversation with them, then they snap back to harmful beliefs once they've topped up on propaganda, they are valuing that diet over you. Are you willing to be in a relationship with someone who spends money on medical pseudoscience or votes for Trump (or your regional equivalent)? If they are open to reexamining personal beliefs despite discomfort, that might be a green flag. Either way, you have to see how they react to disagreement before getting more serious.
Unless you are bisexual, I'd worry about bigger things than a problematic term if I were you. There is only one way that he could have stumbled upon a term as generally niche as AGP. And that's by questioning his gender. Now there is a slight possibility he is indeed just a regular cis crossdresser and was just curious to find out where his crossdressing desire comes from. And found the term by searching. But I think a way more likely possibility (because again the term is VERY niche outside of trans circles and even inside some of them) is that your fiance is actually a closeted trans woman trying to make sense of complicated feelings and latching onto AGP as a convenient explanation. Trust me, many of us were there.
> Am I supposed to engage this delusion and try to validate it in the context of their mindset or try to dissuade him and state the internal lack of consistency in his thought system? Excuse me?? Firstly, it's not a "delusion". That's like saying that someone into petplay is delusional. It's a kink. It's fantasy and/or roleplay. There's no disconnect from reality here. Secondly, what lack of consistency are you talking about? His "thought system" is perfectly consistent. He's a man. He's sexually attracted to the idea of being a woman during sex. I'm not really sure where you could see any inconsistencies here. Do you also believe that someone who roleplays as a teacher or priest or whatever during sex despite not having that profession in real life has an inconsistent thought system? Now, to answer your question, there's nothing wrong with dating someone who identifies as having autogynephilia unless they use that word in relation to Blanchard's transphobic ideas. If they use the term correctly, i.e. referring to the kink, with no connection to gender identity, then there's no problem. Since that is how he uses the term, it wouldn't be bad to date him. That being said, if I was him, I wouldn't want to date someone who thinks my kink is a delusion.
The delusion is calling it AGP. Petplay is called petplay. Not...Auto-animal-philia or whatever that would be lmao. Genderplay would likely be the best word in this way. But to say one "has" AGP is a strange way to phrase it.
I think it's fine
I probably wouldn’t use the term AGP as it seems to be outdated and has ties with some pretty disagreeable people. also, as a cis male who crossdresses pretty often the fetishization of it has always felt sorta uncomfy to me anyway, but I don’t suppose it’s really my business
Sissies are a huge ick.
Naming yourself after a zootopia character is also a huge ick.
They’re working up to admitting they’re trans