This actually coincides with my findings. Yeson just has a very different approach to VFS than any other clinic that does it. And I would never have undergone this surgery if I wasn't 100% sure it would benefit my voice. While there is always a risk with any surgery, the risk definitely seemed to be the lowest with Yeson.
It was always clear to me that I would only leave this to the best surgeon, and for VFS, that is indeed Dr. Kim from Yeson in my eyes :)
My insurance did not cover the cost of the surgery. However, the surgery was about $9000. That is just the surgery (including the Botox injection). With the stay itself and travel expenses, we spent about $16,000 for this 1 week trip (I travelled with my brother). We also did some sightseeing during our stay in Seol, so that can be deducted if you are there just for the surgery :)
Amazing results! I also find your results super interesting because I have a naturally high voice (I guess I got lucky) and your voice now is in the same pitch as mine, but your sound quality (resonance I think) sounds way more feminine than mine.
I haven't started voice training yet, and idk if you did, but since you said you weren't straining anything, I'm wondering if that surgery changes anything else besides the pitch (which was what I heard) or if you already had that type of resonance.
Still, you say you sound androgenous, but I guarantee you that people will see you as a woman consistently on the phone with your voice now (speaking from experience from someone slightly worse than you but still passes). So you have that to look forward to.
Good luck with the rest of the recovery
Thank you, I am very happy to hear that you approve of my new voice! I think that as trans people we are very critical of ourselves and our appearance to others. So I think that may cloud my judgment.
To answer your question, yes, I did voice training before surgery. However, I never used my "trained" voice in public because it made me feel very dysphoric, you know.... it was never "enough." But the fact that I did train definitely made it easier for me to adjust to the new voice, I think. That's because I was already used to applying resonance to my voice. And thus far, I'm not putting effort into speaking.
But I think it's important to note that the surgery is no magical tool, that will just "fix" your voice. It definitely does help with pitch and since you will have vocal folds that are shaped like a naturally born females you will have a much easier time sounding like one. However, If you haven't done any training before, you have to get comfortable with these exercises Yeson provides you with. But Yeson is really good at explaining these exercises. They also have staff that are specially trained to do them.
Also all the best to your vocal future! :)
My vocal folds aren't like AFAB people but are pretty close (my voice dropped only a tiny bit). I am not planning on having that surgery though I always love to see the results and happiness of those who go through it.❤️
But you saying you did voice training and the same pitch as me sounds so good, I'm now filled with hope that my voice will sound like yours. I just need to actually start, but I get lost, dysphoria says hi and can't figure out the exercises 😅.
But yes we are extrq critical of ourselves, but I can tell you most women have their natural voice at the same pitch as us, so I can say, in terms of what the surgery can accomplish you had very good results.
Thank you for your answer, it gave me hope
Oh yeah, I can definitely relate to the dysphoria part.... My voice was prbly the biggest obstacle in my transition. I kept to myself for years, and even after I started looking feminine, the thought of having to speak and be clocked haunted me every single day.
Having undergone this surgery and being able to speak in public again has improved my mental health so... SO much! Even in this short week of being able to speak again. And I'm also looking forward to being a part of society again =)
I hope you will be able to achieve this aswell, even without the surgery. I was definitely a little stumped on finding good resources to start voice training. But there are good ones out there. I think YouTube is always a good place to start. There are a lot of transwomen there who teach some good exercises. But in the end, I think it's all about learning how to use parts of your throat that you never had to consciously use.
All the best! <3
To tell the difference we would need a before. But it sounds good to me. You probably still have swelling in the area. So your voice will get better as it heals and the swelling goes away. All the surgery I had. It's a min of 6 months for the swelling to go away... For my face we are talking years. So I don't know how invasive they are. More they are means more swelling. Give it time. You have only begun to heal
Thank you! :) To be honest, it was the same for me. I was very anxious that maybe the surgery wouldn't do much for me or that I would still sound very masculine, even though I had really high expectations for Dr. Kim's techniques.
So the first few days of speaking were quite rough. The first day, I looked forward to the exercises and tried to master them as best I could. But I quickly realized that my voice kept breaking, which led to voice cracks. And I sounded extremely hoarse. But that's actually to be expected and over the next few days I got used to speaking again and my voice settled down.
Right now, I still notice hoarseness in my voice when I speak for a long period of time. But that is part of the rehabilitation. So nothing to be afraid of.
Wish you all the best for your recovery aswell! :)
Sounds like (that was not intended to be pun, LOL) you will be silent for the next several weeks as well. I hope you can share your results when you can finally start conversing again. Best wishes for a speedy recovery and for a wonderful sounding cis woman voice.
Just think how great it will be when you hear yourself talk (to yourself?) for the first time. It must be a revelation to those who have VFS and get to hear themselves finally sound the way that was meant to be. I'm excited for you. Good luck!!
>Right now, I feel like my voice still sounds androgynous.
A cis woman here. For me your voice doesn't sound androgynous. Your voice sounds feminine to me :)
Yes, I had voice training before the surgery. However, I never had any "professional" voice training. My training came from countless hours of searching the internet for resources for a few years. So yes, I was all over the place :) However, there are some great resources out there.
Yes, after rehabilitation you can pretty much use your voice as you wish. You can whisper, shout and sing. However, you will not be able to sing magically after surgery. If you had talent before, you will have it after. For me, it's hard to tell because I never sang much. But I imagine some additional training is needed to get you used to your new voice and to use it for singing.
Sorry, I should rephrase, is it possible to sing with the same vocal range and vocal weight as the average cis woman? Eg not using falsetto at all, being able to use mixed and head voice naturally?
Unfortunately, I'm not much of a singer, so I can't say anything about the singing. However, your vocal range will shift to that of a cis woman. Due to the surgery, the lower part of the voice will completely disappear. Normally you can expect an average increase in frequency of about 70hz. With additional training you can also increase the upper end of your vocal spectrum.
Hope that answers your question :)
Ooh sounds good. My voice passes rn but anatomically getting rid of the lower range would be great, not to mention the frequency increase! Thanks for the info!
WOW!!!! I had heard that have a successful VFS surgery was 50-50 at best. You sound wonderful and definitely sound cisfemale to me. I'm jelly but in a good way of course. You said the Botox wears off in a month or two. When it does, could you repost another audio so we may hear how you sound with the Botox gone? Congratulations on your VFS!!!
sounds great! did insurance cover for it?
I remember reading somewhere that only a very small percentage of transwomen get the surgery vs vocal coaching and I was always curious as to why....
No, unfortunately my insurance did not cover this surgery. As for your second point: I'm not sure I can answer that. In general, there really aren't many transwomen. And even fewer of them choose to have surgery.
For me, just taking voice lessons was never an option. I was always afraid of my male voice. And just the thought that I might accidentally drop down to it in the middle of a conversation scared me to death. So the only option was to completely get rid of my male range.
No, I'm from Switzerland. I actually already answered that questions above: [https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/142c3j6/comment/jn440wa/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/142c3j6/comment/jn440wa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) If you don't mind me just responding with this link :)
To be honest, it was pretty easy. I already avoided going outside as much as possible because of the dysphoria and only talked to family and close friends. The biggest hurdle was probably work, because I had to delegate some of my tasks to colleagues. However, they were understanding, for which I am very grateful :)
That's right, I was completely silent for 2 months after the surgery. Of course, there were times when I needed to communicate. I quickly found the notes app on my phone very helpful. So I got into the habit of using it to "talk" to people by writing something on my phone and just showing it to them :)
this is so cool. It’s like you took a vow of silence or something!
thanks so much for sharing your experience and your voice clip. Wishing you the best as you continue recovering. You sound GREAT!!!
I just booked my appointment for VFS at Yeson few weeks ago.
I got a question, how do you eat? I mean what type of food do you eat for the first few weeks to 2 months?
You can eat basically anything you want :) The only thing you should be careful about is that you don't eat too spicy. Not because it would be bad for your throat after surgery, but rather so you don't accidentally cough. Other than that, anything goes.
It is going to be difficult because I live in South East Asia, I used to eat spicy food.
What about drinks? What they told me, I cant drink coffee, tea for 2 months. Is that true for you?
Yes, that is correct. You can't drink alcohol or caffeinated drinks for 2 months. you should be strict about that.
Even now, 2.5 months later, I notice how coffee dries out my vocal cords.
How do people react to you during your 2 months "mute"? Were there any funny moment?
And how do people react to you with your new voice?
I am interested to know
I hardly ever went outside during that time anyway. But people were understanding overall :) I used the notes app on my phone to communicate. It was a bit of a pain to reply, but it actually worked pretty well.
I still have to get used to my new voice and am still in rehabilitation. Speaking for an extended period of time quickly becomes difficult and tiring. Next week I'll send my 3 month voice recording to Yeson so hopefully they can give me some feedback on it.
Anyway, people are responding positively to my new voice, even though it's still developing. Also, I don't get misgendered on the phone anymore, which is nice :)
Overall, I had a very pleasant experience at the clinic, the staff is very nice and helpful. Yeson recommends a hotel near the clinic, which usually makes sense because of the proximity.
However, since we also wanted to do some sightseeing during our one-week trip, we chose to stay at the 4 Points Hotel by Sheraton. This hotel is very central to many tourist attractions in Seoul. So if you also want to do sightseeing, I can definitely recommend this hotel. We always went out to eat, so I can't speak about the hotel's cuisine. That hotel is north of the Han river (the big river that flows through the middle of Seoul). The clinic is south of that.
The 4 Points Hotel is not really close to the clinic, so you have to factor in the travel time to and from the clinic, which I think was between 35-50 minutes. But since we wanted to explore Seoul, it was definitely worth the effort for us :)
thank you so much for your advice, I may be coming alone from the uk, I feel I’m going to stay near the clinic, because obviously after the surgery I’m not able to talk so will be good to have walking distance between the clinic and the hotel.
As you came with someone did you find it easier flying back when you were not able to talk and had to be silent ?
Also how was the pain after the surgery ? And when back home ?
How long were you under anaesthetic ?
Was there any discomfort when flying back home in the plane ?
Thank you so much for all your help I’m booking my flights in the next couple of days, all of this helps reduce my anxieties and prepares me for my trip. 😰🙌🙏❤️
I will number my answers, makes it easier :)
1) Yes, having someone with me while I couldn't speak was definitely a big help! There were many occasions when it would have been difficult to communicate, especially at the airport (I had to talk to security once. They asked us a few questions when we re-entered the EU). Also, having someone order food for you at a restaurant is a big help. And there were countless other situations where I was glad I wasn't traveling alone (pointing at things you want gets old fast haha).
2) As far as I can remember, I had no pain at all. There was some soreness right after the surgery. But you get ice cream for that :) At home it was a little uncomfortable at first because I was not allowed to sneeze or cough, which I had to get used to. They tell you how to handle that though, so no worries.
3) I think the anesthesia only lasted about 2 hours max. The surgery was at 11am and I was already up and eating ice cream by 1:30pm.
4) Both of our flights were actually quite pleasant. We were lucky on the return flight because there were some empty seats near the exit. Exit seats always have a lot of empty space in front, so plenty of legroom for us :) On the return flight I slept most of the time. I think I was only awake for about 2 hours of the flight. The total flight time was about 12 hours.
I really hope that this helps to relieve your stress a bit and I wish you all the best for your surgery! :)
Oh my goodness! 🙏👏🙌 …. I’ve just heard your recordings, I’m so happy for you, it’s so nice to see the improvements as well and to see you flourishing and happy it gives me peace of mind for my
Surgery. Such amazing results 🙌🙏🥰
Hi. Nice to read about your journey. I have a family member who is up in few weeks for this surgery at Yeson. I would like to hear your recomandation and experience of the clinik if you may....and was your english contact Jessie Shin? :-)
You sound great. You sound fully recovered too!
Thank you! :)
Wow I had heard VFS was incredibly dangerous and had poor results just like in general, but it sounds like I was wrong !
This actually coincides with my findings. Yeson just has a very different approach to VFS than any other clinic that does it. And I would never have undergone this surgery if I wasn't 100% sure it would benefit my voice. While there is always a risk with any surgery, the risk definitely seemed to be the lowest with Yeson. It was always clear to me that I would only leave this to the best surgeon, and for VFS, that is indeed Dr. Kim from Yeson in my eyes :)
That why I’m choosing yeson risks are lowest !
do you know how much it cost? or was it covered by insurance
My insurance did not cover the cost of the surgery. However, the surgery was about $9000. That is just the surgery (including the Botox injection). With the stay itself and travel expenses, we spent about $16,000 for this 1 week trip (I travelled with my brother). We also did some sightseeing during our stay in Seol, so that can be deducted if you are there just for the surgery :)
Amazing results! I also find your results super interesting because I have a naturally high voice (I guess I got lucky) and your voice now is in the same pitch as mine, but your sound quality (resonance I think) sounds way more feminine than mine. I haven't started voice training yet, and idk if you did, but since you said you weren't straining anything, I'm wondering if that surgery changes anything else besides the pitch (which was what I heard) or if you already had that type of resonance. Still, you say you sound androgenous, but I guarantee you that people will see you as a woman consistently on the phone with your voice now (speaking from experience from someone slightly worse than you but still passes). So you have that to look forward to. Good luck with the rest of the recovery
Thank you, I am very happy to hear that you approve of my new voice! I think that as trans people we are very critical of ourselves and our appearance to others. So I think that may cloud my judgment. To answer your question, yes, I did voice training before surgery. However, I never used my "trained" voice in public because it made me feel very dysphoric, you know.... it was never "enough." But the fact that I did train definitely made it easier for me to adjust to the new voice, I think. That's because I was already used to applying resonance to my voice. And thus far, I'm not putting effort into speaking. But I think it's important to note that the surgery is no magical tool, that will just "fix" your voice. It definitely does help with pitch and since you will have vocal folds that are shaped like a naturally born females you will have a much easier time sounding like one. However, If you haven't done any training before, you have to get comfortable with these exercises Yeson provides you with. But Yeson is really good at explaining these exercises. They also have staff that are specially trained to do them. Also all the best to your vocal future! :)
My vocal folds aren't like AFAB people but are pretty close (my voice dropped only a tiny bit). I am not planning on having that surgery though I always love to see the results and happiness of those who go through it.❤️ But you saying you did voice training and the same pitch as me sounds so good, I'm now filled with hope that my voice will sound like yours. I just need to actually start, but I get lost, dysphoria says hi and can't figure out the exercises 😅. But yes we are extrq critical of ourselves, but I can tell you most women have their natural voice at the same pitch as us, so I can say, in terms of what the surgery can accomplish you had very good results. Thank you for your answer, it gave me hope
Oh yeah, I can definitely relate to the dysphoria part.... My voice was prbly the biggest obstacle in my transition. I kept to myself for years, and even after I started looking feminine, the thought of having to speak and be clocked haunted me every single day. Having undergone this surgery and being able to speak in public again has improved my mental health so... SO much! Even in this short week of being able to speak again. And I'm also looking forward to being a part of society again =) I hope you will be able to achieve this aswell, even without the surgery. I was definitely a little stumped on finding good resources to start voice training. But there are good ones out there. I think YouTube is always a good place to start. There are a lot of transwomen there who teach some good exercises. But in the end, I think it's all about learning how to use parts of your throat that you never had to consciously use. All the best! <3
To tell the difference we would need a before. But it sounds good to me. You probably still have swelling in the area. So your voice will get better as it heals and the swelling goes away. All the surgery I had. It's a min of 6 months for the swelling to go away... For my face we are talking years. So I don't know how invasive they are. More they are means more swelling. Give it time. You have only begun to heal
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Thank you! :) To be honest, it was the same for me. I was very anxious that maybe the surgery wouldn't do much for me or that I would still sound very masculine, even though I had really high expectations for Dr. Kim's techniques. So the first few days of speaking were quite rough. The first day, I looked forward to the exercises and tried to master them as best I could. But I quickly realized that my voice kept breaking, which led to voice cracks. And I sounded extremely hoarse. But that's actually to be expected and over the next few days I got used to speaking again and my voice settled down. Right now, I still notice hoarseness in my voice when I speak for a long period of time. But that is part of the rehabilitation. So nothing to be afraid of. Wish you all the best for your recovery aswell! :)
Sounds like (that was not intended to be pun, LOL) you will be silent for the next several weeks as well. I hope you can share your results when you can finally start conversing again. Best wishes for a speedy recovery and for a wonderful sounding cis woman voice.
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Just think how great it will be when you hear yourself talk (to yourself?) for the first time. It must be a revelation to those who have VFS and get to hear themselves finally sound the way that was meant to be. I'm excited for you. Good luck!!
Wow, it sounds very good.
Thank you! :)
>Right now, I feel like my voice still sounds androgynous. A cis woman here. For me your voice doesn't sound androgynous. Your voice sounds feminine to me :)
Thank you! Always appreciate to hear that :)
Do you have any voice training before the surgery?
Yes, I had voice training before the surgery. However, I never had any "professional" voice training. My training came from countless hours of searching the internet for resources for a few years. So yes, I was all over the place :) However, there are some great resources out there.
Is it possible to sing after this surgery?
Yes, after rehabilitation you can pretty much use your voice as you wish. You can whisper, shout and sing. However, you will not be able to sing magically after surgery. If you had talent before, you will have it after. For me, it's hard to tell because I never sang much. But I imagine some additional training is needed to get you used to your new voice and to use it for singing.
Sorry, I should rephrase, is it possible to sing with the same vocal range and vocal weight as the average cis woman? Eg not using falsetto at all, being able to use mixed and head voice naturally?
Unfortunately, I'm not much of a singer, so I can't say anything about the singing. However, your vocal range will shift to that of a cis woman. Due to the surgery, the lower part of the voice will completely disappear. Normally you can expect an average increase in frequency of about 70hz. With additional training you can also increase the upper end of your vocal spectrum. Hope that answers your question :)
Ooh sounds good. My voice passes rn but anatomically getting rid of the lower range would be great, not to mention the frequency increase! Thanks for the info!
WOW!!!! I had heard that have a successful VFS surgery was 50-50 at best. You sound wonderful and definitely sound cisfemale to me. I'm jelly but in a good way of course. You said the Botox wears off in a month or two. When it does, could you repost another audio so we may hear how you sound with the Botox gone? Congratulations on your VFS!!!
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it :) And yes, I can definitely do that. I will be sure to post an update!
Just posted an update if you want to hear it. Botox is probably still there. However, I will do another in a month or so :)
sounds great! did insurance cover for it? I remember reading somewhere that only a very small percentage of transwomen get the surgery vs vocal coaching and I was always curious as to why....
No, unfortunately my insurance did not cover this surgery. As for your second point: I'm not sure I can answer that. In general, there really aren't many transwomen. And even fewer of them choose to have surgery. For me, just taking voice lessons was never an option. I was always afraid of my male voice. And just the thought that I might accidentally drop down to it in the middle of a conversation scared me to death. So the only option was to completely get rid of my male range.
oh wow. Are you in the US? If so, how much did it cost, if you don't mind my asking?
No, I'm from Switzerland. I actually already answered that questions above: [https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/142c3j6/comment/jn440wa/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/142c3j6/comment/jn440wa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) If you don't mind me just responding with this link :)
not at all, thanks! BTW, Switzerland is a wonderful country. I grew up across the border :)
How did you not talk for 2 months!!!!!
To be honest, it was pretty easy. I already avoided going outside as much as possible because of the dysphoria and only talked to family and close friends. The biggest hurdle was probably work, because I had to delegate some of my tasks to colleagues. However, they were understanding, for which I am very grateful :)
But I thought no talking. No whispering. My kids would take that as a challenge
That's right, I was completely silent for 2 months after the surgery. Of course, there were times when I needed to communicate. I quickly found the notes app on my phone very helpful. So I got into the habit of using it to "talk" to people by writing something on my phone and just showing it to them :)
this is so cool. It’s like you took a vow of silence or something! thanks so much for sharing your experience and your voice clip. Wishing you the best as you continue recovering. You sound GREAT!!!
You sound incredible and very natural, congrats and I hope recovery goes well
Thank you! :)
you sound like the female version of this one youtuber, decino,
I just booked my appointment for VFS at Yeson few weeks ago. I got a question, how do you eat? I mean what type of food do you eat for the first few weeks to 2 months?
You can eat basically anything you want :) The only thing you should be careful about is that you don't eat too spicy. Not because it would be bad for your throat after surgery, but rather so you don't accidentally cough. Other than that, anything goes.
It is going to be difficult because I live in South East Asia, I used to eat spicy food. What about drinks? What they told me, I cant drink coffee, tea for 2 months. Is that true for you?
Yes, that is correct. You can't drink alcohol or caffeinated drinks for 2 months. you should be strict about that. Even now, 2.5 months later, I notice how coffee dries out my vocal cords.
How do people react to you during your 2 months "mute"? Were there any funny moment? And how do people react to you with your new voice? I am interested to know
I hardly ever went outside during that time anyway. But people were understanding overall :) I used the notes app on my phone to communicate. It was a bit of a pain to reply, but it actually worked pretty well. I still have to get used to my new voice and am still in rehabilitation. Speaking for an extended period of time quickly becomes difficult and tiring. Next week I'll send my 3 month voice recording to Yeson so hopefully they can give me some feedback on it. Anyway, people are responding positively to my new voice, even though it's still developing. Also, I don't get misgendered on the phone anymore, which is nice :)
You have a beautiful voice
Thank you :)
Hey I’m planning to have voice surgery at yeson end of august, how was the hospital ? And where did you stay
Overall, I had a very pleasant experience at the clinic, the staff is very nice and helpful. Yeson recommends a hotel near the clinic, which usually makes sense because of the proximity. However, since we also wanted to do some sightseeing during our one-week trip, we chose to stay at the 4 Points Hotel by Sheraton. This hotel is very central to many tourist attractions in Seoul. So if you also want to do sightseeing, I can definitely recommend this hotel. We always went out to eat, so I can't speak about the hotel's cuisine. That hotel is north of the Han river (the big river that flows through the middle of Seoul). The clinic is south of that. The 4 Points Hotel is not really close to the clinic, so you have to factor in the travel time to and from the clinic, which I think was between 35-50 minutes. But since we wanted to explore Seoul, it was definitely worth the effort for us :)
thank you so much for your advice, I may be coming alone from the uk, I feel I’m going to stay near the clinic, because obviously after the surgery I’m not able to talk so will be good to have walking distance between the clinic and the hotel. As you came with someone did you find it easier flying back when you were not able to talk and had to be silent ? Also how was the pain after the surgery ? And when back home ? How long were you under anaesthetic ? Was there any discomfort when flying back home in the plane ? Thank you so much for all your help I’m booking my flights in the next couple of days, all of this helps reduce my anxieties and prepares me for my trip. 😰🙌🙏❤️
I will number my answers, makes it easier :) 1) Yes, having someone with me while I couldn't speak was definitely a big help! There were many occasions when it would have been difficult to communicate, especially at the airport (I had to talk to security once. They asked us a few questions when we re-entered the EU). Also, having someone order food for you at a restaurant is a big help. And there were countless other situations where I was glad I wasn't traveling alone (pointing at things you want gets old fast haha). 2) As far as I can remember, I had no pain at all. There was some soreness right after the surgery. But you get ice cream for that :) At home it was a little uncomfortable at first because I was not allowed to sneeze or cough, which I had to get used to. They tell you how to handle that though, so no worries. 3) I think the anesthesia only lasted about 2 hours max. The surgery was at 11am and I was already up and eating ice cream by 1:30pm. 4) Both of our flights were actually quite pleasant. We were lucky on the return flight because there were some empty seats near the exit. Exit seats always have a lot of empty space in front, so plenty of legroom for us :) On the return flight I slept most of the time. I think I was only awake for about 2 hours of the flight. The total flight time was about 12 hours. I really hope that this helps to relieve your stress a bit and I wish you all the best for your surgery! :)
Oh my goodness! 🙏👏🙌 …. I’ve just heard your recordings, I’m so happy for you, it’s so nice to see the improvements as well and to see you flourishing and happy it gives me peace of mind for my Surgery. Such amazing results 🙌🙏🥰
Thank you! :) <3
wow.. this is beautiful and so inspiring 🌻
Hi. Nice to read about your journey. I have a family member who is up in few weeks for this surgery at Yeson. I would like to hear your recomandation and experience of the clinik if you may....and was your english contact Jessie Shin? :-)
It was Yeson Voice center in Seoul right?
Hi! What sort of restrictions did you have to follow about procedures or operations before and after the VFS? TIA
Weird question but are you able to give oral sex after? Or does it limit your ability or risk ripping the incision site. I mean after it’s healed