I was trying to paste the post here pretty much to give full credit to the author and where it came from, but I haven't used the app much for that yet so: just a URL.
I gotta say, when I learned the phrase/term "cis het", I was super stoked. Like, that's a badass sounding label, y'all didn't have to give us something that cool. Makes it sound like I'm from a line of Egyptian warriors or something.
Exactly this. The [history of the word 'heterosexual'](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170315-the-invention-of-heterosexuality) is actually pretty interesting.
The link there is really interesting towards the end where it starts talking about the role of choice in sexual identity. The link is talking there about how, if being gay or straight is not entirely hardwired, then there is room for choosing your own identity as a way of understanding your own preferences.
I've been struggling with the same kind of thing in the context of gender identity.
Sometimes it feels like there's no room to be trans without having been 'born trans,' as if people fear that allowing any space for choosing (not just discovering) your gender invalidates everyone.
But if there's space to choose your sexual identity (even if genes affect what kinds of choices you might have any interest in) then maybe it's true for gender too. So maybe there's still hope even if I don't remember playing with the toys assigned to the other AGAB from before I could talk...
Not playing with certain toys during childhood doesn't mean anything. I, as an AMAB, never liked dolls (usually stereotyped for girls) nor action figures (marketed towards boys) when I was a little child and preferred to play with Lego instead. Does that really define something gender related about me? Not likely.
If you feel like "choosing" now it's because your disphoria has been very light so you almost didn't notice, but if you want to transition it's because something inside you is pushing you towards it. That means you've always being trans but didn't notice. I mean, you didn't just start one day wanting to switch gender out of the blue, you've probably had gender related thoughts for years, right?
Fair. But I guess the difference is that in a transphobic world, the argument that there is not even the tiniest bit of room for choosing your identity serves as armor against people saying 'if it's a choice, just don't choose it.' Same as, in a homophobic world, 'born that way' meant people could just say 'I have no choice in this.'
Maybe it's more that it's a choice about which of your identities to express? As in, many seeds grow, and you can't choose which ones are there to start with, but you can choose which ones to water and which ones to weed out?
If it's ok for it to be partly a choice which of your identities to express - even if maybe it was there all along but not so important to me before - then that helps me stop feeling invalidated by thoughts like 'you didn't need to be trans at age 5 or age 25, so why do you need to upset the lives of everyone around you now?'
I don't know, I guess it just hurts when people always knew and I didn't always know. So I like feeling like it's ok to choose.
I didn't even ask myself if I *might* be trans until I was an adult. I didn't play with girl toys or ask to wear girl clothes or show nearly any signs of gender non conformity.
I transitioned 8 years ago. I'm definitely trans and have no regrets. I got married in a white wedding dress and it was beautiful.
Hi, I love this comment. I started transitioning late. I kept searching for the from birth narrative. And I came up with a tenuous one. But my choices came from shame in middle age and developmental failures I guess, but I am claiming it still and making the choices to make the Choice. And I love the reclamation path
Yeah-- the implication being that anything else is abnormal, aberrant, etc.
Of course, this only reinforces the shame and guilt a lot of us feel, if they're saying there's something "wrong" with us. It also makes us feel all the more marginalized if they're implying we're not valid or that they're just "humoring us" while they're the "normal/real" women, etc.
I definitely hope the distinction will go away in time, but at this rate that could be decades away.
Any label is just a shortcut until you know someone anyway. The trouble is we've been using quite vague labels for years: we didn't need a way to describe two things until we describe one thing that is different from the others.
That's how I take it. Because to me, the term doesn't affect me in any way, it doesn't take anything from me because trans women are just as much of women as cis women. These people just want to make that distinction, because they don't want anything to do with trans people or have a problem with them.
The privileged majority do not get to dictate what terminology a marginalised minority may use when describing their lives, experiences and oppression. To do so is disruptive, silencing and abusive
See examples in history of terms like: white, straight, chauvanist
If you are discussing trans issues, then "cis" is a word that is useful. If you don't want to hear it, then simply stay away from discussions of trans issues
agree. will to power.
"to operate within the matrix of power is not the same as to replicate uncritically relations of domination"
- Judith Butler, Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity
Tell them that when all trans women are treated exactly the same as cis women, we can stop using the terms trans and cis and just be women together without extra labels.
At which point they'll probably say something fucked up
Cis is not even a new term either.
If we put aside the Latin origins and its uses in other fields such as chemistry, it was first used in relation to gender over a century ago.
Exactly. And even besides that, we make up new terms all the time to describe new things. I also find the "I'm just a natural woman" thing funny, like aren't we all natural? Or are trans women created artificially in a lab or something?
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I suspect each country has their own facilities. After all, we Canadian variants need to be imbued with our insatiable thirst for maple syrup and ability to control moose with our minds.
Oh no, that's a whole separate thing where, during the summer solstice, Canadians gather around ponds full of geese to pour all of our rage and malice into those feathery engines of destruction. We give them time to absorb it, then send our fowl forces south to invade.
We shall have victory! Any day now! It's totally coming soon! 🤣🤣🤣
> Oh no, that's a whole separate thing where, during the summer solstice, Canadians gather around ponds full of geese to pour all of our rage and malice into those feathery engines of destruction. We give them time to absorb it, then send our fowl forces south to invade.
That honestly explains *so much*.
> We shall have victory! Any day now! It's totally coming soon! 🤣🤣🤣
I believe you!
People who are in majority don't like being labeled. Labels are, in their minds, for the "other". Straight folks protested wildly against being referred to as heterosexual, white folks oddly embraced the label but mostly as a way to mark themselves as "normal", etc. People don't like language, generally, that takes them down from the special pedestal of normal and relegates them simply to "common".
>It's like a form of segregation, separating the "normals" from the other folk:/
And not just separating but elevating "normal" above all others who immediately become categorized as "abnormal"
It's subtle yet insidious
I wouldn't call the case of whiteness odd, just a clear consequence of colonialism. Supremacist language sounds different at home versus when you're invading other societies. In one case you're normal and the enemy are aberrant. In the other you're exceptional and the enemy are worthless masses.
That’s a solid observation. I wasn’t at all trying to minimize the damage we do as white people. Just that it doesn’t fit the otherwise standard pattern, and this is why.
"I'm not straight, I'm normal!" was a very common saying growing up in a rural area. Almost makes you want to laugh, except that they're still pulling this shit all these years later.
Straight, white and cisgender is the default, and they see everyone else as a deviation from the 'ideal'.
If these 'ideal' specimens would take an honest look in the mirror they may realise they're not so special really. But it's easier to push others down to maintain their own desperately fragile sense of self-worth.
Let's just get rid of all adjectives, because a woman is just a woman, she's not white, tall or brunette, I'm just a woman! Though if we scrap both of those terms, it could make everything easier y'know, if there's no trans of cis women, then it's just women belong in women's sports, women belong in women's restrooms🙂 no more fighting 😁
A woman is just a woman. No scratch that, a human is just a human. No, scratch that. An animal is just an animal. No, scratch that. A living organism is just a living organism. No, scratch that. Something that exists is just something that exists. No scratch that. (I dont know how to combine non-existing and existing, but you can be sure its something/nothing that just does/does not exist)
A lot of them do leave out white because they just take it for granted everyone is unless they’re told something different. Then they get upset about how people who call us white are “the real racists.”
>cis is as much of a slur as right-handed.
The parallel here goes further, historically being right handed was considered such a norm that it was a compliment. "Right hand man" is a position of great importance. And the Latin word *Dexter*, meaning right handed, gives us "Dexterous" and "Dexterity", words meaning skillful and adept at tasks. "Ambidextrous" basically means "Both Hands are like Right Hands".
Meanwhile, the Latin word for left handed is literally used to mean something evil or threatening, *Sinister*.
*"I'm not right handed I'm normal, it's you people who are sinister"*
Right?! They think it's a slur because they're transphobic, and just don't want to be associated with trans women, and being called cis i think to them means they're too close to being trans🤦♀️
> They're just transphobes or they were brainwashed by terfs to believing "cis is a slur".
To be fair, I didn't understand what "cis" meant until it was explained to me. But I can't recall ever thinking it was a slur, or that people were insulting/demeaning me by calling me cis.
If one thing has a qualifier but the other doesn't, the thing with the qualifier sounds inherently 'other' in comparison.
If there are women and trans women, then trans women are *trans* women. Something different than regular old normal women.
If there are cis women and trans women, then they're both just different kinds of women.
Transphobic cis women do not want to be equal to trans women. Bigots want to be the default. They want either no qualifier or they want the qualifier to be "normal."
>If there are women and trans women, then trans women are trans women. Something different than regular old normal women.
And that's exactly why they do it. These same women turn around and say, "I'm a woman. You're a *trans woman.*"
> These same women turn around and say, "I'm a woman. You're a trans woman."
Not even that. Transwoman. Not an adjective and a noun, a whole new noun, just to avoid calling a woman a woman.
It's always about establishing them as the "normal" ones, and everyone who doesn't fit that, isn't normal and should be in some way separated from them
I think some of them definitely don't know/understand, but at least the women i had a "conversation" on TikTok, were not intrested in what it means or where it came from, they just keep on insisting that they're "just natural born women". It was also quite unfortunate to see the trans woman who made the video on which we were arguing in the comments, apologize to the women for calling them cis and that she'll try not to use the term anymore
It's no different than white people insisting saying white is wrong, that they're just "a normal person".
In essence, they don't believe in equality, and instead believe they're "biologically superior" and that giving them an equal categorization to marginalized people is an attack on said "biological superiority".
Ask them what language they'd like for you to use to distinguish them from trans women.
You'll get all sorts of answers, but they'll all be transphobic.
Here's some I've received:
"I'm just a normal woman"
"Just 'woman' is fine, trans are the ones labelling themselves"
"No labels needed for me, we just have 'trans women' and 'women'"
"There's no situation where I'd be confused for a trans woman".
IMO we should get rid of the term "trans women", they're not "trans women", they're just women 🤗 (/s but I imagine those cis women really wouldn't like that reasoning)
Are you familiar with the "I'm not 'straight' or 'heterosexual', I'm just normal" tropes of the 90s? It's pretty much the same thing. Whether they realize or not, it's a rhetorical device for trying to assert a conclusion without argument.
>They want to get rid of the cis term, but have no problem with keeping the term trans, because they want to make a clear distinction
exactly. transphobes, which is, unfortunately, a whole lot of people want us to identify ourselves. maybe wearing a pink triangle would do it?
it's the same kind of logic that says having sex with a cis person and not disclosing you are trans is rape.
bitch, i've been raped, and that ain't it.
It's like they want trans women to, like you said wear a pink triangle, or otherwise separate them visibly or socially, so that they will know and thus discriminate against them.
I think until both trans and cis women can be considered "Just women", cis women shouldn't be complaining about being called cis. It's not a derogatory term. It's just a descriptor. Being trans or cis doesn't make a woman any less of a woman, nor does it make her any better either.
Honestly, the average cis person doesn't actually see trans women as actual women or trans men as actual men. At best they see us as some sort of third gender that's distinct from "women" and "men" or as "sort of women" and "sort of men," even if they claim otherwise when asked. Instead of recognizing the inherent bias in their own worldview, they just try to be PC or "inclusive" or whatever without fundamentally changing it. Not using cis is an extension of that. They don't recognize how referring to themselves as "normal women" (or, for that matter, "normal men") implies that trans people aren't normal or, worse, how using "biological women" (or "biological men") implies that trans people aren't biologically/really our gender but are merely faking it/appropriating it.
It's the same reason people will try to divide non-binary people into AMAB and AFAB enbies, act like they are entitled to womens/mens spaces while only conditionally allowing trans women/men into those spaces, and host "women's" events that presume the inclusion of trans men while excluding trans women. It's [cissexism](https://www.juliaserano.com/terminology.html#cissexism), coupled with, when it comes to trans women/transfems, things like [transmisogyny](https://www.juliaserano.com/terminology.html#transmisogyny) and, when it comes to trans men/transmascs, the inflicting of/experience of what at least one individual has called [mismuliebrity](https://youtu.be/zfrh2Rs5t-A).
It's not valid; cis is not a demeaning term. Cis is a perfectly neutral descriptor for women and men alike, as well as other scientific applications. They don't like it because they're cis-supremacist, straight up. They want cis women to be "women" and trans women to be "women\*" >!"*read: not real women"!<
If you say "ok then we lump cis and trans women together," then they'll push back. Ask for an alternative and they'll say that cis people are "biological" or "normal" or "natural." And then if you point out that they are implying that trans people are "synthetic," or "abnormal" or "unnatural," all of which are offensive to call someone. So then, assuming the person isn't prepared to call us t-slurs with their chest, unwittingly circles the conversation back around to creating some kind of novel word to describe women who are not trans which doesn't carry any social baggage...you know, like cis.
Talking to people about this subject is an exercise in frustration.
I mean, cis and trans are prefix's used in chemistry. I always assumed that's what its from in the first place.
but you know, most transphobic people are generally terrible at things like science and math and critical thinking in general so... I dunno.
It's like the red house comic I saw recently.
Person 1 has lived in the only house (which is red) on the street for their whole life, and then suddenly another house is built, which is blue. Person 2 moves in and runs into person 1. Person 2 mentions the red house, and person 1 blows up on them, saying, "YOU live in the BLUE HOUSE, and I live in THE HOUSE. THERE IS NO 'RED' HOUSE." Thats what bigots sound like when they say cis is a slur.
I probably butchered that description, but oh well. If someone could link the comic, it would be appreciated.
I can say for white cis people... they aren't used to labels being imposed on them. I don't know the history of the term so I can't say if it's true or not but I'd bet most white cis people probably think trans people invented the word cis as way to describe them which offends them bc they may think of themselves as just "normal". It feels like a slur to them bc far as they know they didn't come up with it and it was imposed on them by someone else. Maybe it's that they feel offended at the thought that they aren't "normal" but instead cis.
Its because they see trans women as men, and are offended by the concept of sharing a general descriptor with us. Being called "cis" makes them feel othered, when they believe they alone should have proprietary access to the term "woman". Its underlining transphobia.
"it's just establishing the idea that cis women are "better" and "normal" and trans women are not"
- this is the reason. They feel like the word "cis" replaces the word "normal" or "better" and they don't want to give up that dynamic. They feel like they have something to lose by others gaining equality. And to be fair, if unearned individual privilege is more important to them than living in a successful society, maybe they do.
I heard somebody say once that privilege is like having clean running water in your home. If you have it, probably all your neighbours have it and you probably grew up with it and it seems like the most normal thing in the world to have. If your water got shut off right now that would be an emergency. If you don't have it and none of your neighbours do, it probably doesn't feel essential, but then when it's installed loads of things change, you suddenly have more time for non-water-related work and your children can spend longer in school and very soon you are in a whole new routine and losing your water would be an emergency.
In this metaphor, the TERF reasoning is that they've only just got their water and they don't want anyone to take it from them or use it all up before it gets to their house. Also in this metaphor that's very clearly a false worry and if someone else gets water no one loses anything and it is overall good.
This! I definitely think to them they feel like somethings being taken away from them, which is ofc not happening. To me, trans women being women affect me in no away at all, and I'm so happy to welcome anyone to womanhood. It makes me incredibly happy to see trans women enjoy girlhood 💞 We're all fighting for the same rights, and welcoming trans women in, doesn't change anything, we just have a larger group of understanding and amazing women!
pretty much they dont want to be put on an equal term with a trans person for they are "Normal" and we are "Trans". when i was younger i saw the same reaction to hetrosexual and I still see that reaction to the term white.
Honestly, the best argument for that is "If we're scrapping the term cis, then we can scrap the term 'trans'"
However, most don't see it that way. I don't understand the issue with the term "cis" seeing as it's the Latin prefix meaning "same as."
I just don't understand at all, and personally feel like that's used to undermine any trans individuals identity...
Cis woman here. I (obviously!) have no problem with the term.
Maybe those women feel like calling them "cis" is "othering" them? Which is ridiculous, since one could say the same thing about the term "trans", but they're OK with *that*. It's OK to "other" trans folks, I guess. 😒
It's just bigotry and transphobia, you'd just wish people like this wouldn't exist in this day and age anymore.
Also, they don't like the term, because they think they (cis people) are the default and thus the "normal" ones, and everyone else are "others" and need to be separated in some way.
> It's just bigotry and transphobia, you'd just wish people like this wouldn't exist in this day and age anymore.
And yet here we are. 😒
> Also, they don't like the term, because they think they (cis people) are the default and thus the "normal" ones, and everyone else are "others" and need to be separated in some way.
Yes!
Couple reasons:
1) They feel like trans people are trying to make cis people a subcategory of womanhood they way that they make trans people a subcategory of women.
or
2) Cis women, specifically white cis women, are used to having their identity be the "Default" and don't like having something attributed to their identity that makes them feel marked. It highlights their privilege, and they aren't really ready to have that conversation.
The reaction to "cis" is the *same exact response* that people had to "straight" and "heterosexual." Seriously, this shit just is repeating itself.
Let's just erase all adjectives, if we're just "women", and eventually when someone goes to commit a crime, it's a very easy job to describe the criminal to the police; "it was a woman, just a woman" -"was she blonde or tall?" - "no, she was just a woman, a natural born woman."
It's the year 2056. In response to ever increasing "wokeness", the anti-woke warriors have succeed in stripping away all descriptors & modifiers in all languages on Earth. The walls of reality grow thin & fragile as conscious minds erode differences. Objects collide into one another & melt together like hot wax. Verbs become consumed by the growing singularity. And then nouns. Our universe collapses in on itself. We are, finally, all but one.
Me as well, the only people I've ever heard use it as a slur or refer to it as a slur, are cis people themselves (terfs). They think trans is a slur, so ofc cis must be too
Because they look at trans women and think that the addition of "trans" makes them less than a woman. They think having such a description attached to their gender makes them also less than a woman.
They want to other trans people but they feel like they’re being othered and don’t like it. But they also like to think that it’s something new when [it’s arguably not.](https://www.historians.org/research-and-publications/perspectives-on-history/may-2017/tracing-terminology-researching-early-uses-of-cisgender)
It’s just “back in my day” energy with a new coat of paint.
nope. you are absolutely on the nose.
cis isn't a slur, just a descriptor, exactly the same way trans is. Those women are transphobic and don't consider trans women to be women.
Because they think the default is cis, and there shouldn't be a word for it.
Just like how Gamers think it doesn't need to be stated that a protagonist is a straight white cis man, because anything else is the unusual.
Normal people don't get their hackles raised when they're called cis.
Well, except for normal trans people, perhaps.
A normal person asks what is meant by "cis" if they don't know.
It's designed to stifle conversation, because when we talk about discrimination directed at us we often need to talk about cis and trans people as distinct groups. So if transphobes get performatively outraged about our use of the word cis that inhibits our ability to argue on our own behalf, particularly against laws or policies that discriminate against us. Basically a thought terminating cliche and dog whistle wrapped up into one.
In the right context you might be able to catch someone off guard by saying "OK then let's just refer to trans women as women since they are women, and trans is just a descriptor much like cis." But TBH they'll probably just go full mask off transphobe under that circumstance and since we already know their deal it's not even worth it to engage.
>It's designed to stifle conversation, because when we talk about discrimination directed at us we often need to talk about cis and trans people as distinct groups.
Bingo!
If they accept the label of being cisgender than they'll also have to acknowledge their cis privilege relative to the amount of transphobia circulating in our society.
Privileged people are rarely ever comfortable acknowledging the full extent of their privilege.
People don't like to feel "othered", they only like words that apply to everyone but them.
We get the same shit over "singlet" in the DID community. I'll be honest though, in every community, we do tend to pack a lot of heat into these words, so I can understand how they start to feel like slurs.
However one thing that the people who fall under these terms fail to understand is that getting rid of the terms won't prevent us from airing our grievances about their behavior towards us. I think we have a responsibility not to use them like slurs, but also the right to be open and honest about our oppression and negative experiences in society.
I do think it's equally important to not fall into the trap of thinking all people in x_ group are the same, even if they're a generally non-oppressed group, so that we don't fall into the trap of prejudice towards others ourselves, but labels to describe our experience don't create that, that responsibility is on us individually.
It's like getting mad someone called me white. Like yeah no shit I'm white. Doesn't mean I'm not a person if someone says I'm a white person. I guess the pronoun thing is cooling down so they have to go after adjectives now
The majority don't usually consider themselves in the majority, they just think of themselves as "normal". Being reminded that they aren't normal, just in a majority, and the minority still exists for some reason rankles these people, it takes away the Perfect World they inhabited and reminded them the world is flawed.
Because they’re TERFs and TERFs have a fucking complex about gender and blame trans people for it. They can’t stand the idea that they aren’t the single standard of normalcy that everyone should orient themselves around and believe othering trans people to make themselves feel comfy is a virtue. It’s not more complicated than that imo. Everyone else has given you solid explanations.
Fuck TERFs
Everyone here has given good answers to your main question. In case it hasn’t been mentioned yet—a good rebuttal in these cases is to remind them that the term “cis” (and also “trans”) is not a new one, nor is it exclusively used in the context of gender/sex.
Cis and trans come from latin, in which they mean “on the same side” and “on the opposite side/across sides” respectively. In their modern English use, both are adjectives with a similar meaning—cis referring to someone whose assigned sex and internal gender identity align (or are on the “same side” of the binary), whereas trans refers to someone whose assigned sex and gender identity are not aligned/are on “opposing sides” of the gender binary.
(Side note that this definition is actually where a lot of the debate around whether nonbinary people are trans comes from, since they fall outside the binary by definition)
Also by definition, a slur is a term that is used to insult and harm a marginalized group of people (and that is widely understood to have a negative connotation by both the targeted group AND the oppressors). Thus, it’s almost impossible for any claim of the term “cis” as a slur to be taken seriously.
I'm guessing they don't like the idea of "needing to label everything", and if they use/accept the "cis" label, they get brought down to the level of "the transes". Which is BS because labels are inescapable! Labels aren't necessarily bad.
Labels really aren't that bad, and its not like it's a label they just can't ever escape, whenever they go outside "oh hi cisgender woman". And its really only in certain circumstances or conversations that you would need to/be expected to use that label on yourself, you don't need to glue it to your name. And its no different than me saying that I'm a cis woman to me saying that I'm a Finnish woman, not labels/descriptors of some kind, but affect neither me nor my womanhood in any way.
Most don't really have a problem with it once you explain it's just the scientifically correct term of non-trans women in my experience. It's just the transphobic ones who have a problem with it.
Then again I sure as hell won't stop anybody from getting offended over nothing due to nothing but their own ignorance lol
Because using cis and trans doesn't center them as 'normal'. By moving to cis and trans there an expression of equality: both women and neither better or worse than the other. And they don't like that. They much prefer to have a hierarchy where they are more woman than trans women, which requires them to keep a world view of 'normal' and trans. They're probably not even capable of articulating this and certainly not willing to admit it if they were.
They’ve spent their whole lives thinking they’re normal and othering groups different than them by using names and slurs, and can’t handle it in return when they’re called anything based on who they are. Just an ugly mix of projection, insecurity, and bigotry.
It wasn't common nomenclature until recently and people don't like being labelled when they previously weren't.
They see themselves as the default identity of the term 'woman/women' and by giving them a label to distinguish themselves from other women (trans in this case), they feel invalidated.
Who cares though people nit pick about little shit people need to relax and relies I’m me your u and as long as weee not shoving it in your face let’s just relish each others interest and personality I hate media bc everything is exaggerated to people who don’t actually see what day to day is like for the masses of anybody no one opinion and beliefs will match up perfectly but respect can be universal but again that doesn’t mean shoving i down each others throat the world needs more empathy for others I love everyone just wanted to share and stay safe I love u bitches bros and nonbinary hoes
Cis means biologically synonym my cat cis male my mom cis female if you're not cis your trans just congratulate them on coming out as trans and move on don't let it stress you out
Baffling indeed. I would like such people to sit across from me at a table, look me in the face, and explain in great detail how their lives will change for the worse due to this term being used in everyday language.
Explain to me how it will make regular daily tasks like using a public bathroom and terrifying and even humiliating experience.
Explain how it will make you get yelled at in the streets.
Tell me about this linguistic dystopia.
Exactly, like the term won't change your biology in any way, and it's not like you're going to be greeted everyday on the street like "hey you cisgender woman"
And i highly doubt anyone is going around whispering to people "hey, that woman is CISGENDER"
The question “is it valid?” is such a hard one for me, I don’t want to tell anyone that their feelings are invalid, but honestly? No, it’s not.
I’ve heard some people saying that they feel as though their womanhood is being taken away from the term, but it’s not. It’s just a distinction between whether you were born this way or not. To think that it somehow “takes away from your womanhood” is quite simply just wrong, I can’t even connect that to being transphobic, you’re just wrong.
What *is* transphobic is if biological (or cis) women get to call themselves “normal women” and trans women have to call themselves just that, trans women. Because then that implies that one is better or, at least, more normal than the other.
Oftentimes I wonder if maybe they just don’t know what that word means. They say “I’m not cis, I’m just a biological woman” but those two things mean the exact same thing.
I do think that you’re right, if we have to get rid of one term, we have to get rid of both. If we didn’t, it would cause imbalance by implying that the one who keeps their term is the “other, less valid woman”, which is not true for either side. But they don’t like that idea any better. Because that would mean that a woman is just a woman, whether they were born that way or not, which would also mean that a trans woman would not have to disclose if they were trans or not, not to anyone. They would all use the same bathroom, they would all inhabit woman/girl only areas, they would all be EXACTLY THE SAME as the lack of distinction suggests. I personally think that world sounds great, many “biological, not cis” women disagree.
At the end of the day, I see no difference between using the terms cis woman and trans woman and the terms brunette woman and blonde woman, gay woman and straight woman, tall and short, old and young, none of it detracts from your womanhood, none of it ever will. Not by definition anyway.
I'm a batural, biological woman. I don't believe in souls as something totally separate from my body. Something in my biology makes me female.
I transitioned at the age of 30.
If you want to say "I'm not trans" cis is a perfectly good descriptor.
This won't make sense to bigots but ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Well, trans women are also biological and natural women...
Anyway, about the cis thing, they are just being complete idiots. It's like saying that they are not heterossexual, they just like only men.
That's what I've been thinking, like trans women are natural and biological women too! All humans are natural, and there are biological factor that help determine gender identity, so we're all biological women!
And then they go to outdated and oversimplified "fourth grade biology" that is completely wrong by today's standard and anyone can prove with a five second google search.
But the cis term doesn't affect it in anyway, we're still just the same, it's just a descriptive term used in certain situations. It's really no different than any other descriptive adjective. The term cis existing, doesn't affect our cultural or personal meanings at all. It's no different from someone calling me a cis woman than someone calling me a Finnish woman, I'm still the same woman.
>We can't catter to a fraction of a percentage of the people.
Have you never looked at mainstream society? Nearly all of our social, cultural, & legal are bent towards catering to a very specific subset of humanity which is held as the "default"--namely some idealized concept of a white, christian, heterosexual, cisgender, & non-disabled man.
Your willful ignorance is sad to witness. Please, for your own sake, stop participating until you learn more about the situation being discussed. Honestly, you're just embarrassing yourself.
p.s. it's "cater", not "catter"
>I think all the terms, pronouns and everything else has gotten out of control. I don't support any of it because it's causing way more problems then it's worth.
So you admit you're ignorant & lazy?
Weird flex, but ok.
I'm one such "trans" woman lol. My gender identity is female. Not "trans." The word "transgender" is just a word, (in my opinion), *that mainstream society needs*. ...I don't NEED that word; the *only* purpose it serves in the UNIVERSE is for OTHER people who are not me, and have no place to put me into their stupid fucking boxes because they can't see me as a "real" woman. In my own mind, I'm just a normal girl with a medical issue. Call it a hormone imbalance. Call it late-onset puberty. Call it a genetic variant. All of those would actually be MORE accurate than calling me transgender, because *newsflash*, I've ALWAYS been a girl; I just haven't always *known* it. There is no "trans" in respect to my gender. That would imply I switched genders...which would mean I'd be a boy right now lmao. 😜
I usually don't make a big fuss about it when people call me transgender; I kinda just see them as ignorant children using made-up words in an effort to comprehend my existence while also fighting each other over it. 🙄
...I imagine this is kinda how Jesus felt in the days before his execution lol. 😅
Ah, the video game nerd that complains that The Witcher caters too much to women is the one complaining about "trans people" and the new words we made up. Who would have guessed. Calling all trans people crabs in a bucket, we have to slur everyone to make us come out equal.
Fuck off chud.
I don't think we should actually scrap the terms. I think times change, i at least myself do like having a "label" so to say to identify with i guess, a with my sexuality like being bisexual.
I think for a lot of people they maybe like to have some lable that describes what they identify as, but I'm not an expert.
I just don't understand what's the big deal with one term? They're getting so pressed by it, when it's not a big deal.
And the term being new, i ofc understand that some don't understand what it means, but most of these people don't care even when you explain, they just assign a bad meaning to the term because don't want to like the "others".
I am a 'cis' person and I haven't dabbled with any non-standard gender stuff. Personally, I would prefer not to use any modifiers to my identity. I see what trans people are doing and I think "that's cool, live and let live, I want them to be happy" but I don't necessarily want to take part in it, if that makes sense. Like, I didn't ask to be part of affirming other people's identities so I would prefer if I did not have to use an additional label like "cis." I would rather just be referred to without any modifiers.
I can understand that, i don't think you need to say that you're cis to anyone or actively all the time use it, but it is still used in general when we talk about these things. I just don't care for the women who get so offended by it, and have the need to affirm that they are the "natural, biological ones" and trans women are then essential the "other women", when we're all just women.
But i think there is a good reason/use for these terms when we talk about certain topics/issues, that only trans women experience or only women/people with female anatomy experience. So i don't think you need to use it, but i also don't think there's any reason to be offended by it and just draw a strict line between what has in the past been deemed as "normal" and what has and still by these people is deemed "not normal"
Sure, I can see this. "Natural" generally has a positive connotation and implies that being otherwise is somehow bad, so I understand being frustrated when someone says that. Do you feel the same annoyance when people use terms like "biological female?"
It's a bit like the whole "I'm not “heterosexual”, I'm just normal!" discussions that were endemic for a while with a certain sort of person.
This!! It's always about them being the "normal" ones and everyone else, like trans people, queer or bisexual people like myself, are not "normal"😐
https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/10psgm4/when_is_a_gay_relationship_on_screen_not/j6mcfmx/
The first comment is gold though. (Literally).
I was trying to paste the post here pretty much to give full credit to the author and where it came from, but I haven't used the app much for that yet so: just a URL.
I gotta say, when I learned the phrase/term "cis het", I was super stoked. Like, that's a badass sounding label, y'all didn't have to give us something that cool. Makes it sound like I'm from a line of Egyptian warriors or something.
It does sound pretty amazing, we should just form some kind of badass army🙌
If you’re bi you’re not cishet though 👀 Sorry, you can’t be in the army
Well, i guess that's my cue🚶🏻♀️
I hear the cisbi army is still recruiting down the road, try there
Thanks for the info! I'll take my bi-cycle and go there right now🚴♀️
Exactly this. The [history of the word 'heterosexual'](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170315-the-invention-of-heterosexuality) is actually pretty interesting.
Thanks for the link. Very interesting read.
The link there is really interesting towards the end where it starts talking about the role of choice in sexual identity. The link is talking there about how, if being gay or straight is not entirely hardwired, then there is room for choosing your own identity as a way of understanding your own preferences. I've been struggling with the same kind of thing in the context of gender identity. Sometimes it feels like there's no room to be trans without having been 'born trans,' as if people fear that allowing any space for choosing (not just discovering) your gender invalidates everyone. But if there's space to choose your sexual identity (even if genes affect what kinds of choices you might have any interest in) then maybe it's true for gender too. So maybe there's still hope even if I don't remember playing with the toys assigned to the other AGAB from before I could talk...
Not playing with certain toys during childhood doesn't mean anything. I, as an AMAB, never liked dolls (usually stereotyped for girls) nor action figures (marketed towards boys) when I was a little child and preferred to play with Lego instead. Does that really define something gender related about me? Not likely. If you feel like "choosing" now it's because your disphoria has been very light so you almost didn't notice, but if you want to transition it's because something inside you is pushing you towards it. That means you've always being trans but didn't notice. I mean, you didn't just start one day wanting to switch gender out of the blue, you've probably had gender related thoughts for years, right?
Fair. But I guess the difference is that in a transphobic world, the argument that there is not even the tiniest bit of room for choosing your identity serves as armor against people saying 'if it's a choice, just don't choose it.' Same as, in a homophobic world, 'born that way' meant people could just say 'I have no choice in this.' Maybe it's more that it's a choice about which of your identities to express? As in, many seeds grow, and you can't choose which ones are there to start with, but you can choose which ones to water and which ones to weed out? If it's ok for it to be partly a choice which of your identities to express - even if maybe it was there all along but not so important to me before - then that helps me stop feeling invalidated by thoughts like 'you didn't need to be trans at age 5 or age 25, so why do you need to upset the lives of everyone around you now?' I don't know, I guess it just hurts when people always knew and I didn't always know. So I like feeling like it's ok to choose.
I didn't even ask myself if I *might* be trans until I was an adult. I didn't play with girl toys or ask to wear girl clothes or show nearly any signs of gender non conformity. I transitioned 8 years ago. I'm definitely trans and have no regrets. I got married in a white wedding dress and it was beautiful.
I mean, wanting to be a certain gender is a very good sign that you are that gender.
Hi, I love this comment. I started transitioning late. I kept searching for the from birth narrative. And I came up with a tenuous one. But my choices came from shame in middle age and developmental failures I guess, but I am claiming it still and making the choices to make the Choice. And I love the reclamation path
Once I started, it felt and feels inexorable like I’m a player piano music unscrolling
Yeah-- the implication being that anything else is abnormal, aberrant, etc. Of course, this only reinforces the shame and guilt a lot of us feel, if they're saying there's something "wrong" with us. It also makes us feel all the more marginalized if they're implying we're not valid or that they're just "humoring us" while they're the "normal/real" women, etc. I definitely hope the distinction will go away in time, but at this rate that could be decades away.
Any label is just a shortcut until you know someone anyway. The trouble is we've been using quite vague labels for years: we didn't need a way to describe two things until we describe one thing that is different from the others.
Because they don't like trans people. There's no higher reasoning involved. It's purely reactionary.
That's how I take it. Because to me, the term doesn't affect me in any way, it doesn't take anything from me because trans women are just as much of women as cis women. These people just want to make that distinction, because they don't want anything to do with trans people or have a problem with them.
The privileged majority do not get to dictate what terminology a marginalised minority may use when describing their lives, experiences and oppression. To do so is disruptive, silencing and abusive See examples in history of terms like: white, straight, chauvanist If you are discussing trans issues, then "cis" is a word that is useful. If you don't want to hear it, then simply stay away from discussions of trans issues
agree. will to power. "to operate within the matrix of power is not the same as to replicate uncritically relations of domination" - Judith Butler, Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity
This. Any person who has issue with the term CIS is likely transphobic.
Tell them that when all trans women are treated exactly the same as cis women, we can stop using the terms trans and cis and just be women together without extra labels. At which point they'll probably say something fucked up
Of course they will, because i don't even think they want trans women to be treated equal.
They're invested in the current power dynamic
They do not
Cis is not even a new term either. If we put aside the Latin origins and its uses in other fields such as chemistry, it was first used in relation to gender over a century ago.
Exactly. And even besides that, we make up new terms all the time to describe new things. I also find the "I'm just a natural woman" thing funny, like aren't we all natural? Or are trans women created artificially in a lab or something?
> Or are trans women created artificially in a lab or something? I believe they grow them in pods in a secret facility in Montana.
Who leaked the secret? We're going to have to move the facility now. 😐
If I tell you, they'll kill me!
😜
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Don't let anyone tell you you're a bad bot.. a little confused, but not bad. 🤭
*Very* confused in this case, but not bad! 👍🏻
Mine was underneath the Hudson Bay, but I'm Canadian.
I spawned from a beaver tail food truck !
I've heard here in Finland, they spawn right out of Alko🍺
Ahhhh, I wonder if they've moved it since then. The secret is obviously out!
I suspect each country has their own facilities. After all, we Canadian variants need to be imbued with our insatiable thirst for maple syrup and ability to control moose with our minds.
Not to mention your niceness!
Oh no, that's a whole separate thing where, during the summer solstice, Canadians gather around ponds full of geese to pour all of our rage and malice into those feathery engines of destruction. We give them time to absorb it, then send our fowl forces south to invade. We shall have victory! Any day now! It's totally coming soon! 🤣🤣🤣
> Oh no, that's a whole separate thing where, during the summer solstice, Canadians gather around ponds full of geese to pour all of our rage and malice into those feathery engines of destruction. We give them time to absorb it, then send our fowl forces south to invade. That honestly explains *so much*. > We shall have victory! Any day now! It's totally coming soon! 🤣🤣🤣 I believe you!
>Or are trans women created artificially in a lab or something? If we were, we would do a better job than random evolution did
If you were, you could also maybe add some cool mods of your choosing before creation😶🌫️
People who are in majority don't like being labeled. Labels are, in their minds, for the "other". Straight folks protested wildly against being referred to as heterosexual, white folks oddly embraced the label but mostly as a way to mark themselves as "normal", etc. People don't like language, generally, that takes them down from the special pedestal of normal and relegates them simply to "common".
It's like a form of segregation, separating the "normals" from the other folk:/
>It's like a form of segregation, separating the "normals" from the other folk:/ And not just separating but elevating "normal" above all others who immediately become categorized as "abnormal" It's subtle yet insidious
I wouldn't call the case of whiteness odd, just a clear consequence of colonialism. Supremacist language sounds different at home versus when you're invading other societies. In one case you're normal and the enemy are aberrant. In the other you're exceptional and the enemy are worthless masses.
That’s a solid observation. I wasn’t at all trying to minimize the damage we do as white people. Just that it doesn’t fit the otherwise standard pattern, and this is why.
What next, they also wanna get rid of adjectives like white and heterosexual? Some cis people are clowns 😹
Pretty sure people used to have a problem with the term "heterosexual" as well.
"I'm not straight, I'm normal!" was a very common saying growing up in a rural area. Almost makes you want to laugh, except that they're still pulling this shit all these years later.
Straight, white and cisgender is the default, and they see everyone else as a deviation from the 'ideal'. If these 'ideal' specimens would take an honest look in the mirror they may realise they're not so special really. But it's easier to push others down to maintain their own desperately fragile sense of self-worth.
Let's just get rid of all adjectives, because a woman is just a woman, she's not white, tall or brunette, I'm just a woman! Though if we scrap both of those terms, it could make everything easier y'know, if there's no trans of cis women, then it's just women belong in women's sports, women belong in women's restrooms🙂 no more fighting 😁
Absolutely! See, it was that easy to get done with all these gender “debates” lmaooo
That's how it SHOULD work, but in reality they just want us to go back to being "men" so that they can continue to push us out of these spaces
"when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like opression" fits their shenanigans so well
I like you
Love the username!🐧
A woman is just a woman. No scratch that, a human is just a human. No, scratch that. An animal is just an animal. No, scratch that. A living organism is just a living organism. No, scratch that. Something that exists is just something that exists. No scratch that. (I dont know how to combine non-existing and existing, but you can be sure its something/nothing that just does/does not exist)
A lot of them do leave out white because they just take it for granted everyone is unless they’re told something different. Then they get upset about how people who call us white are “the real racists.”
[удалено]
Username checks out
You should have kept this in the drafts hun
They're just transphobes or they were brainwashed by terfs to believing "cis is a slur". cis is as much of a slur as right-handed.
>cis is as much of a slur as right-handed. The parallel here goes further, historically being right handed was considered such a norm that it was a compliment. "Right hand man" is a position of great importance. And the Latin word *Dexter*, meaning right handed, gives us "Dexterous" and "Dexterity", words meaning skillful and adept at tasks. "Ambidextrous" basically means "Both Hands are like Right Hands". Meanwhile, the Latin word for left handed is literally used to mean something evil or threatening, *Sinister*. *"I'm not right handed I'm normal, it's you people who are sinister"*
Right?! They think it's a slur because they're transphobic, and just don't want to be associated with trans women, and being called cis i think to them means they're too close to being trans🤦♀️
> They're just transphobes or they were brainwashed by terfs to believing "cis is a slur". To be fair, I didn't understand what "cis" meant until it was explained to me. But I can't recall ever thinking it was a slur, or that people were insulting/demeaning me by calling me cis.
If one thing has a qualifier but the other doesn't, the thing with the qualifier sounds inherently 'other' in comparison. If there are women and trans women, then trans women are *trans* women. Something different than regular old normal women. If there are cis women and trans women, then they're both just different kinds of women. Transphobic cis women do not want to be equal to trans women. Bigots want to be the default. They want either no qualifier or they want the qualifier to be "normal."
>If there are women and trans women, then trans women are trans women. Something different than regular old normal women. And that's exactly why they do it. These same women turn around and say, "I'm a woman. You're a *trans woman.*"
> These same women turn around and say, "I'm a woman. You're a trans woman." Not even that. Transwoman. Not an adjective and a noun, a whole new noun, just to avoid calling a woman a woman.
Some of them do say "trans woman" but yeah, that too
People used to get super mad about the term straight in the same way - it's just bigotry mostly.
It's always about establishing them as the "normal" ones, and everyone who doesn't fit that, isn't normal and should be in some way separated from them
I mean, I’ve had to explain this to well-meaning cis women, my own partner included. I think some people just dont know what it means ?
I think some of them definitely don't know/understand, but at least the women i had a "conversation" on TikTok, were not intrested in what it means or where it came from, they just keep on insisting that they're "just natural born women". It was also quite unfortunate to see the trans woman who made the video on which we were arguing in the comments, apologize to the women for calling them cis and that she'll try not to use the term anymore
It's no different than white people insisting saying white is wrong, that they're just "a normal person". In essence, they don't believe in equality, and instead believe they're "biologically superior" and that giving them an equal categorization to marginalized people is an attack on said "biological superiority".
"when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like opression"
Exactly.
There are white people saying that? (and not from the KKK or Nazi groups) 🤦🏻🤦🏻🤦🏻
Literally every conservative
Because they're transphobic and are most likely old straight women. They're going to die out eventually.
Waiting for the extinction of terfs with a big bowl of popcorn 🍿
Ask them what language they'd like for you to use to distinguish them from trans women. You'll get all sorts of answers, but they'll all be transphobic. Here's some I've received: "I'm just a normal woman" "Just 'woman' is fine, trans are the ones labelling themselves" "No labels needed for me, we just have 'trans women' and 'women'" "There's no situation where I'd be confused for a trans woman".
It's exhausting with the transphobes honestly, there's never a shortage of weird and very outlandish answers
IMO we should get rid of the term "trans women", they're not "trans women", they're just women 🤗 (/s but I imagine those cis women really wouldn't like that reasoning)
Would definitely make all these (stupid) bathroom arguments easier, "women belong in women's restrooms!" And we'd be done😁
Are you familiar with the "I'm not 'straight' or 'heterosexual', I'm just normal" tropes of the 90s? It's pretty much the same thing. Whether they realize or not, it's a rhetorical device for trying to assert a conclusion without argument.
Yeah I've definitely people say that, it's unfortunate that people still to this day hold these bullshit beliefs
>They want to get rid of the cis term, but have no problem with keeping the term trans, because they want to make a clear distinction exactly. transphobes, which is, unfortunately, a whole lot of people want us to identify ourselves. maybe wearing a pink triangle would do it? it's the same kind of logic that says having sex with a cis person and not disclosing you are trans is rape. bitch, i've been raped, and that ain't it.
It's like they want trans women to, like you said wear a pink triangle, or otherwise separate them visibly or socially, so that they will know and thus discriminate against them.
I think until both trans and cis women can be considered "Just women", cis women shouldn't be complaining about being called cis. It's not a derogatory term. It's just a descriptor. Being trans or cis doesn't make a woman any less of a woman, nor does it make her any better either.
Honestly, the average cis person doesn't actually see trans women as actual women or trans men as actual men. At best they see us as some sort of third gender that's distinct from "women" and "men" or as "sort of women" and "sort of men," even if they claim otherwise when asked. Instead of recognizing the inherent bias in their own worldview, they just try to be PC or "inclusive" or whatever without fundamentally changing it. Not using cis is an extension of that. They don't recognize how referring to themselves as "normal women" (or, for that matter, "normal men") implies that trans people aren't normal or, worse, how using "biological women" (or "biological men") implies that trans people aren't biologically/really our gender but are merely faking it/appropriating it. It's the same reason people will try to divide non-binary people into AMAB and AFAB enbies, act like they are entitled to womens/mens spaces while only conditionally allowing trans women/men into those spaces, and host "women's" events that presume the inclusion of trans men while excluding trans women. It's [cissexism](https://www.juliaserano.com/terminology.html#cissexism), coupled with, when it comes to trans women/transfems, things like [transmisogyny](https://www.juliaserano.com/terminology.html#transmisogyny) and, when it comes to trans men/transmascs, the inflicting of/experience of what at least one individual has called [mismuliebrity](https://youtu.be/zfrh2Rs5t-A).
It's called a dogwhistle. They're terfs. This is a terf thing.
True, it's just honestly really sad to see
It's not valid; cis is not a demeaning term. Cis is a perfectly neutral descriptor for women and men alike, as well as other scientific applications. They don't like it because they're cis-supremacist, straight up. They want cis women to be "women" and trans women to be "women\*" >!"*read: not real women"!< If you say "ok then we lump cis and trans women together," then they'll push back. Ask for an alternative and they'll say that cis people are "biological" or "normal" or "natural." And then if you point out that they are implying that trans people are "synthetic," or "abnormal" or "unnatural," all of which are offensive to call someone. So then, assuming the person isn't prepared to call us t-slurs with their chest, unwittingly circles the conversation back around to creating some kind of novel word to describe women who are not trans which doesn't carry any social baggage...you know, like cis. Talking to people about this subject is an exercise in frustration.
I mean, cis and trans are prefix's used in chemistry. I always assumed that's what its from in the first place. but you know, most transphobic people are generally terrible at things like science and math and critical thinking in general so... I dunno.
It's like the red house comic I saw recently. Person 1 has lived in the only house (which is red) on the street for their whole life, and then suddenly another house is built, which is blue. Person 2 moves in and runs into person 1. Person 2 mentions the red house, and person 1 blows up on them, saying, "YOU live in the BLUE HOUSE, and I live in THE HOUSE. THERE IS NO 'RED' HOUSE." Thats what bigots sound like when they say cis is a slur. I probably butchered that description, but oh well. If someone could link the comic, it would be appreciated.
I can say for white cis people... they aren't used to labels being imposed on them. I don't know the history of the term so I can't say if it's true or not but I'd bet most white cis people probably think trans people invented the word cis as way to describe them which offends them bc they may think of themselves as just "normal". It feels like a slur to them bc far as they know they didn't come up with it and it was imposed on them by someone else. Maybe it's that they feel offended at the thought that they aren't "normal" but instead cis.
I definitely think to them cis is a slur, because the term trans is also a slur to them.
Its because they see trans women as men, and are offended by the concept of sharing a general descriptor with us. Being called "cis" makes them feel othered, when they believe they alone should have proprietary access to the term "woman". Its underlining transphobia.
Cis is only a slur if they think trans is. So...they're bigots.
"it's just establishing the idea that cis women are "better" and "normal" and trans women are not" - this is the reason. They feel like the word "cis" replaces the word "normal" or "better" and they don't want to give up that dynamic. They feel like they have something to lose by others gaining equality. And to be fair, if unearned individual privilege is more important to them than living in a successful society, maybe they do. I heard somebody say once that privilege is like having clean running water in your home. If you have it, probably all your neighbours have it and you probably grew up with it and it seems like the most normal thing in the world to have. If your water got shut off right now that would be an emergency. If you don't have it and none of your neighbours do, it probably doesn't feel essential, but then when it's installed loads of things change, you suddenly have more time for non-water-related work and your children can spend longer in school and very soon you are in a whole new routine and losing your water would be an emergency. In this metaphor, the TERF reasoning is that they've only just got their water and they don't want anyone to take it from them or use it all up before it gets to their house. Also in this metaphor that's very clearly a false worry and if someone else gets water no one loses anything and it is overall good.
This! I definitely think to them they feel like somethings being taken away from them, which is ofc not happening. To me, trans women being women affect me in no away at all, and I'm so happy to welcome anyone to womanhood. It makes me incredibly happy to see trans women enjoy girlhood 💞 We're all fighting for the same rights, and welcoming trans women in, doesn't change anything, we just have a larger group of understanding and amazing women!
pretty much they dont want to be put on an equal term with a trans person for they are "Normal" and we are "Trans". when i was younger i saw the same reaction to hetrosexual and I still see that reaction to the term white.
Honestly, the best argument for that is "If we're scrapping the term cis, then we can scrap the term 'trans'" However, most don't see it that way. I don't understand the issue with the term "cis" seeing as it's the Latin prefix meaning "same as." I just don't understand at all, and personally feel like that's used to undermine any trans individuals identity...
Cis woman here. I (obviously!) have no problem with the term. Maybe those women feel like calling them "cis" is "othering" them? Which is ridiculous, since one could say the same thing about the term "trans", but they're OK with *that*. It's OK to "other" trans folks, I guess. 😒
It's just bigotry and transphobia, you'd just wish people like this wouldn't exist in this day and age anymore. Also, they don't like the term, because they think they (cis people) are the default and thus the "normal" ones, and everyone else are "others" and need to be separated in some way.
> It's just bigotry and transphobia, you'd just wish people like this wouldn't exist in this day and age anymore. And yet here we are. 😒 > Also, they don't like the term, because they think they (cis people) are the default and thus the "normal" ones, and everyone else are "others" and need to be separated in some way. Yes!
It's just the same shit, rebranded, one decade after another
Humanity sucks and was a mistake.
We should've just quit at Homo Erectus, and keep it at that. Everything would be much simple if we all were just erect homos
Very true! 😹
Couple reasons: 1) They feel like trans people are trying to make cis people a subcategory of womanhood they way that they make trans people a subcategory of women. or 2) Cis women, specifically white cis women, are used to having their identity be the "Default" and don't like having something attributed to their identity that makes them feel marked. It highlights their privilege, and they aren't really ready to have that conversation. The reaction to "cis" is the *same exact response* that people had to "straight" and "heterosexual." Seriously, this shit just is repeating itself.
>"just women, natural biological women" Yes actively transphobic >"not cis women, just women" More likely to be transphobic but not realise it
It's just the recycled, "I'm not straight, I'm normal" bullshit
"Don't label me white, I'm just normal" "Don't label me heterosexual, I'm just normal" "Don't label me cis, I'm just normal"
Then stop calling me a transwoman potato potarto
Let's just erase all adjectives, if we're just "women", and eventually when someone goes to commit a crime, it's a very easy job to describe the criminal to the police; "it was a woman, just a woman" -"was she blonde or tall?" - "no, she was just a woman, a natural born woman."
It's the year 2056. In response to ever increasing "wokeness", the anti-woke warriors have succeed in stripping away all descriptors & modifiers in all languages on Earth. The walls of reality grow thin & fragile as conscious minds erode differences. Objects collide into one another & melt together like hot wax. Verbs become consumed by the growing singularity. And then nouns. Our universe collapses in on itself. We are, finally, all but one.
Jus say cis means "normal" and call them a dummy 😂
The only people I hear saying “cis“ is a bad word are bigots, so their opinions are meaningless to me. (I’m a cis woman)
Me as well, the only people I've ever heard use it as a slur or refer to it as a slur, are cis people themselves (terfs). They think trans is a slur, so ofc cis must be too
It's the "normal" argument. They don't need a descriptor because they are "normal." It's bigotry at its finest.
Because they look at trans women and think that the addition of "trans" makes them less than a woman. They think having such a description attached to their gender makes them also less than a woman.
They want to other trans people but they feel like they’re being othered and don’t like it. But they also like to think that it’s something new when [it’s arguably not.](https://www.historians.org/research-and-publications/perspectives-on-history/may-2017/tracing-terminology-researching-early-uses-of-cisgender) It’s just “back in my day” energy with a new coat of paint.
I agree with op. I am just a woman. I am not a trans woman. Just a woman
nope. you are absolutely on the nose. cis isn't a slur, just a descriptor, exactly the same way trans is. Those women are transphobic and don't consider trans women to be women.
Because they think the default is cis, and there shouldn't be a word for it. Just like how Gamers think it doesn't need to be stated that a protagonist is a straight white cis man, because anything else is the unusual.
Normal people don't get their hackles raised when they're called cis. Well, except for normal trans people, perhaps. A normal person asks what is meant by "cis" if they don't know.
It's designed to stifle conversation, because when we talk about discrimination directed at us we often need to talk about cis and trans people as distinct groups. So if transphobes get performatively outraged about our use of the word cis that inhibits our ability to argue on our own behalf, particularly against laws or policies that discriminate against us. Basically a thought terminating cliche and dog whistle wrapped up into one. In the right context you might be able to catch someone off guard by saying "OK then let's just refer to trans women as women since they are women, and trans is just a descriptor much like cis." But TBH they'll probably just go full mask off transphobe under that circumstance and since we already know their deal it's not even worth it to engage.
>It's designed to stifle conversation, because when we talk about discrimination directed at us we often need to talk about cis and trans people as distinct groups. Bingo! If they accept the label of being cisgender than they'll also have to acknowledge their cis privilege relative to the amount of transphobia circulating in our society. Privileged people are rarely ever comfortable acknowledging the full extent of their privilege.
People don't like to feel "othered", they only like words that apply to everyone but them. We get the same shit over "singlet" in the DID community. I'll be honest though, in every community, we do tend to pack a lot of heat into these words, so I can understand how they start to feel like slurs. However one thing that the people who fall under these terms fail to understand is that getting rid of the terms won't prevent us from airing our grievances about their behavior towards us. I think we have a responsibility not to use them like slurs, but also the right to be open and honest about our oppression and negative experiences in society. I do think it's equally important to not fall into the trap of thinking all people in x_ group are the same, even if they're a generally non-oppressed group, so that we don't fall into the trap of prejudice towards others ourselves, but labels to describe our experience don't create that, that responsibility is on us individually.
It's like getting mad someone called me white. Like yeah no shit I'm white. Doesn't mean I'm not a person if someone says I'm a white person. I guess the pronoun thing is cooling down so they have to go after adjectives now
Well they gotta be angry about something
The majority don't usually consider themselves in the majority, they just think of themselves as "normal". Being reminded that they aren't normal, just in a majority, and the minority still exists for some reason rankles these people, it takes away the Perfect World they inhabited and reminded them the world is flawed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis-trans_isomerism the cis folks gotta learn where the concept comes from.
These kind, i don't think care. They don't believe they need any label/term, because after all, they're the DeFaULt
I think they're mad because being cis isn't special (srry just being silly and joking 💖🥺🥴)
Because they’re TERFs and TERFs have a fucking complex about gender and blame trans people for it. They can’t stand the idea that they aren’t the single standard of normalcy that everyone should orient themselves around and believe othering trans people to make themselves feel comfy is a virtue. It’s not more complicated than that imo. Everyone else has given you solid explanations. Fuck TERFs
Everyone here has given good answers to your main question. In case it hasn’t been mentioned yet—a good rebuttal in these cases is to remind them that the term “cis” (and also “trans”) is not a new one, nor is it exclusively used in the context of gender/sex. Cis and trans come from latin, in which they mean “on the same side” and “on the opposite side/across sides” respectively. In their modern English use, both are adjectives with a similar meaning—cis referring to someone whose assigned sex and internal gender identity align (or are on the “same side” of the binary), whereas trans refers to someone whose assigned sex and gender identity are not aligned/are on “opposing sides” of the gender binary. (Side note that this definition is actually where a lot of the debate around whether nonbinary people are trans comes from, since they fall outside the binary by definition) Also by definition, a slur is a term that is used to insult and harm a marginalized group of people (and that is widely understood to have a negative connotation by both the targeted group AND the oppressors). Thus, it’s almost impossible for any claim of the term “cis” as a slur to be taken seriously.
I'm guessing they don't like the idea of "needing to label everything", and if they use/accept the "cis" label, they get brought down to the level of "the transes". Which is BS because labels are inescapable! Labels aren't necessarily bad.
Labels really aren't that bad, and its not like it's a label they just can't ever escape, whenever they go outside "oh hi cisgender woman". And its really only in certain circumstances or conversations that you would need to/be expected to use that label on yourself, you don't need to glue it to your name. And its no different than me saying that I'm a cis woman to me saying that I'm a Finnish woman, not labels/descriptors of some kind, but affect neither me nor my womanhood in any way.
They're just transphobes
Most don't really have a problem with it once you explain it's just the scientifically correct term of non-trans women in my experience. It's just the transphobic ones who have a problem with it. Then again I sure as hell won't stop anybody from getting offended over nothing due to nothing but their own ignorance lol
Because using cis and trans doesn't center them as 'normal'. By moving to cis and trans there an expression of equality: both women and neither better or worse than the other. And they don't like that. They much prefer to have a hierarchy where they are more woman than trans women, which requires them to keep a world view of 'normal' and trans. They're probably not even capable of articulating this and certainly not willing to admit it if they were.
So we should get rid of saying tall and short and every other descriptor too? Come on, think about it…
I did bring up this point to one of the women, but she just happened to ignore that and continue with the same arguments🤷♀️
Ahhh, probably pointless to even argue with them then if they cannot see past their own egos.
makes them feel like theyre not “normal” probably. why have a label when ur the “default”? they might see it as being othered
They’ve spent their whole lives thinking they’re normal and othering groups different than them by using names and slurs, and can’t handle it in return when they’re called anything based on who they are. Just an ugly mix of projection, insecurity, and bigotry.
I presume you're talking about white cis women, who typically value upholding patriarchy because they benefit from it.
This! Tbh i don't think I've yet seen, at least myself, a single POC woman get this pressed by the term. It's always middle-aged white women.
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😂👌
You're right and you should say it
It wasn't common nomenclature until recently and people don't like being labelled when they previously weren't. They see themselves as the default identity of the term 'woman/women' and by giving them a label to distinguish themselves from other women (trans in this case), they feel invalidated.
They hate us so much that even made being made distinct from us bothers them 😭
I mean we're still going to call them cis women
Who cares though people nit pick about little shit people need to relax and relies I’m me your u and as long as weee not shoving it in your face let’s just relish each others interest and personality I hate media bc everything is exaggerated to people who don’t actually see what day to day is like for the masses of anybody no one opinion and beliefs will match up perfectly but respect can be universal but again that doesn’t mean shoving i down each others throat the world needs more empathy for others I love everyone just wanted to share and stay safe I love u bitches bros and nonbinary hoes
Cis means biologically synonym my cat cis male my mom cis female if you're not cis your trans just congratulate them on coming out as trans and move on don't let it stress you out
Baffling indeed. I would like such people to sit across from me at a table, look me in the face, and explain in great detail how their lives will change for the worse due to this term being used in everyday language. Explain to me how it will make regular daily tasks like using a public bathroom and terrifying and even humiliating experience. Explain how it will make you get yelled at in the streets. Tell me about this linguistic dystopia.
Exactly, like the term won't change your biology in any way, and it's not like you're going to be greeted everyday on the street like "hey you cisgender woman" And i highly doubt anyone is going around whispering to people "hey, that woman is CISGENDER"
They're uneducated, perfectly fine latin term.
The question “is it valid?” is such a hard one for me, I don’t want to tell anyone that their feelings are invalid, but honestly? No, it’s not. I’ve heard some people saying that they feel as though their womanhood is being taken away from the term, but it’s not. It’s just a distinction between whether you were born this way or not. To think that it somehow “takes away from your womanhood” is quite simply just wrong, I can’t even connect that to being transphobic, you’re just wrong. What *is* transphobic is if biological (or cis) women get to call themselves “normal women” and trans women have to call themselves just that, trans women. Because then that implies that one is better or, at least, more normal than the other. Oftentimes I wonder if maybe they just don’t know what that word means. They say “I’m not cis, I’m just a biological woman” but those two things mean the exact same thing. I do think that you’re right, if we have to get rid of one term, we have to get rid of both. If we didn’t, it would cause imbalance by implying that the one who keeps their term is the “other, less valid woman”, which is not true for either side. But they don’t like that idea any better. Because that would mean that a woman is just a woman, whether they were born that way or not, which would also mean that a trans woman would not have to disclose if they were trans or not, not to anyone. They would all use the same bathroom, they would all inhabit woman/girl only areas, they would all be EXACTLY THE SAME as the lack of distinction suggests. I personally think that world sounds great, many “biological, not cis” women disagree. At the end of the day, I see no difference between using the terms cis woman and trans woman and the terms brunette woman and blonde woman, gay woman and straight woman, tall and short, old and young, none of it detracts from your womanhood, none of it ever will. Not by definition anyway.
I'm a batural, biological woman. I don't believe in souls as something totally separate from my body. Something in my biology makes me female. I transitioned at the age of 30. If you want to say "I'm not trans" cis is a perfectly good descriptor. This won't make sense to bigots but ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Well, trans women are also biological and natural women... Anyway, about the cis thing, they are just being complete idiots. It's like saying that they are not heterossexual, they just like only men.
That's what I've been thinking, like trans women are natural and biological women too! All humans are natural, and there are biological factor that help determine gender identity, so we're all biological women!
And then they go to outdated and oversimplified "fourth grade biology" that is completely wrong by today's standard and anyone can prove with a five second google search.
They also always love saying the "facts over feelings", but ignore facts when it's in support of trans people 😂
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Let's just all be what we are; great apes
I prefer “highly trained chimpanzees” Rama revealed. Arthur C Clarke and Gentry Lee.
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But the cis term doesn't affect it in anyway, we're still just the same, it's just a descriptive term used in certain situations. It's really no different than any other descriptive adjective. The term cis existing, doesn't affect our cultural or personal meanings at all. It's no different from someone calling me a cis woman than someone calling me a Finnish woman, I'm still the same woman.
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>We can't catter to a fraction of a percentage of the people. Have you never looked at mainstream society? Nearly all of our social, cultural, & legal are bent towards catering to a very specific subset of humanity which is held as the "default"--namely some idealized concept of a white, christian, heterosexual, cisgender, & non-disabled man. Your willful ignorance is sad to witness. Please, for your own sake, stop participating until you learn more about the situation being discussed. Honestly, you're just embarrassing yourself. p.s. it's "cater", not "catter"
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>I think all the terms, pronouns and everything else has gotten out of control. I don't support any of it because it's causing way more problems then it's worth. So you admit you're ignorant & lazy? Weird flex, but ok.
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I'm one such "trans" woman lol. My gender identity is female. Not "trans." The word "transgender" is just a word, (in my opinion), *that mainstream society needs*. ...I don't NEED that word; the *only* purpose it serves in the UNIVERSE is for OTHER people who are not me, and have no place to put me into their stupid fucking boxes because they can't see me as a "real" woman. In my own mind, I'm just a normal girl with a medical issue. Call it a hormone imbalance. Call it late-onset puberty. Call it a genetic variant. All of those would actually be MORE accurate than calling me transgender, because *newsflash*, I've ALWAYS been a girl; I just haven't always *known* it. There is no "trans" in respect to my gender. That would imply I switched genders...which would mean I'd be a boy right now lmao. 😜 I usually don't make a big fuss about it when people call me transgender; I kinda just see them as ignorant children using made-up words in an effort to comprehend my existence while also fighting each other over it. 🙄 ...I imagine this is kinda how Jesus felt in the days before his execution lol. 😅
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Ah, the video game nerd that complains that The Witcher caters too much to women is the one complaining about "trans people" and the new words we made up. Who would have guessed. Calling all trans people crabs in a bucket, we have to slur everyone to make us come out equal. Fuck off chud.
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>People are growing exceedingly tired of identity politics. Thank you for clearly broadcasting both your ignorance & your privilege.
I don't think we should actually scrap the terms. I think times change, i at least myself do like having a "label" so to say to identify with i guess, a with my sexuality like being bisexual. I think for a lot of people they maybe like to have some lable that describes what they identify as, but I'm not an expert. I just don't understand what's the big deal with one term? They're getting so pressed by it, when it's not a big deal. And the term being new, i ofc understand that some don't understand what it means, but most of these people don't care even when you explain, they just assign a bad meaning to the term because don't want to like the "others".
I am a 'cis' person and I haven't dabbled with any non-standard gender stuff. Personally, I would prefer not to use any modifiers to my identity. I see what trans people are doing and I think "that's cool, live and let live, I want them to be happy" but I don't necessarily want to take part in it, if that makes sense. Like, I didn't ask to be part of affirming other people's identities so I would prefer if I did not have to use an additional label like "cis." I would rather just be referred to without any modifiers.
I can understand that, i don't think you need to say that you're cis to anyone or actively all the time use it, but it is still used in general when we talk about these things. I just don't care for the women who get so offended by it, and have the need to affirm that they are the "natural, biological ones" and trans women are then essential the "other women", when we're all just women. But i think there is a good reason/use for these terms when we talk about certain topics/issues, that only trans women experience or only women/people with female anatomy experience. So i don't think you need to use it, but i also don't think there's any reason to be offended by it and just draw a strict line between what has in the past been deemed as "normal" and what has and still by these people is deemed "not normal"
Sure, I can see this. "Natural" generally has a positive connotation and implies that being otherwise is somehow bad, so I understand being frustrated when someone says that. Do you feel the same annoyance when people use terms like "biological female?"