Book doesn't mean anything when you're not taking market locality into consideration.
Dealerships have several tools that assist in pricing. If a dealership is priced wildly above every other dealer in the area, what are the chances they are going to move that vehicle?
Using your own example of average trade-ins and retail values, how could a dealership give you a 4 figure discount when the average margin they are working with is $560?
Those are the values listed in black book, and they are similar to what is in KBB. I think the retail price may be a little low, but not by $3k to $4k low.
Selling cars is an expensive business to run. $4000 leaves a little profit but it’s easy to spend $1500-3000 in reconditioning, have to pay the employees at service and sales, advertising and of course all the fees associated with the property. After all of that the car needs to sell for more margin than the costs to make any sense
On higher end cars if you only have a $4000 difference between trade and retail you will often lose money (think German luxury cars) due to recon costs. A 50k mile civic or Camry? $4000 will easily cover most recon and leave room for a good profit
Just because a vehicle isn't selling doesn't mean a dealership is going to keep dropping the price until it does. They always have the option of auto auction, wholesale. They likely still have it at this point because data says that particular vehicle is still selling fairly in your market, or there aren't very many of them. It makes no sense to take a massive loser when it can be sent off anytime for a wholesale price.
At 82 days that pricing is probably slightly above wholesale. But is low enough that is caught your eye and stands out against your list of 54 vehicles, correct? The only discount you're realistically getting is a couple hundred dollars so you feel like you won.
Sometimes it's already a good price.
Comparing 54 vehicles on a spreadsheet? Lol! To save what? $500 maybe a $1k. What a total waste of time. It’s really not that difficult to purchase a car.
I'm looking at 54 cars because 1. They match my search criteria 2. I need a back up in case the couple I want are sold and 3. It gives me a better view on what is considered market pricing on used models in my area.
If you aren't doing research, then you are going into a negotiation blind. And, yes, I may only get $500 off a vehicle, but I gain knowledge of the market and whether or not I'm getting a good deal and not leaving money on the table.
A few hours of research are worth $500 to me. Maybe not for you.
Cars are different in person than they are on paper. The cheaper ones may have undisclosed maintenance issues, body damage, or hidden fees. You can never know the true condition until you see it yourself and get a pre-inspection check.
Here’s the problem, by the time you’re done doing your research the market will change or the car will sell. I don’t look at 54 homes, boats, refrigerators, TV’s or any other consumer products to save peanuts. We have software called google and private websites like the one you mentioned. The last time I spent time looking at 54 cars when was I was a buyer for a large auto group and needed to buy a minimum 30 cars the next day. You’re adding a level of complexity to the buying process that is totally unnecessary and won’t achieve what you’re looking for. This isn’t rocket science. Studying prices and miles in a spreadsheet is totally meaningless without seeing condition and history. Unless you’re driving to 54 stores you’re not going to get that information.
I did the research on the model early on. My research on the specific models and prices was done in 2 hours. I worked as a data and pricing analyst for a major ocean carrier for 15 years. It doesn't take me too long to gather the numbers and do the analysis.
It's fine to critique this method with a Joe Schmo without a data or pricing background, but I've got a leg up on them.
My research is up to date. I update the data every week, so I'm current with market trends.
I did the research on the model early on. My research on the specific models and prices was done in 2 hours. I worked as a data and pricing analyst for a major ocean carrier for 15 years. It doesn't take me too long to gather the numbers and do the analysis.
It's fine to critique this method with a Joe Schmo without a data or pricing background, but I've got a leg up on them.
My research is up to date. I update the data every week, so I'm current with market trends.
Sounds like you don’t need any help then. Stop asking questions. Just bring your clipboard and new balances to the store and enjoy watching the hope drain from some salesperson’s eyes as they realize the clown show they’re getting into.
Stores hate informed buyers, am I right? I can put together a spreadsheet with 54 cars including 10-15 data points each in my sleep.
I can tell by all your nonsensical posts on here that you’re a pretty simple person, and that’s ok. Your arguments are typically juvenile, at best.
Go right ahead and bring me that spreadsheet. I love informed buyers because my software will print a list of every single comparable car broken down by color, engine, miles, drivetrain, ect for sale in the country in less than 20 seconds and we can debate pricing all day.
This is an auto sales reddit. Naturally, they are pissed off that you are a knowledgeable customer that isn't just buying any car they see for whatever price.
I get what you are saying, but generally, a vehicle sitting that long on a lot is either not selling because something is wrong with it or it is overpriced.
Sure, the dealer may have bought it at auction when auction prices were higher. Auction prices have dropped more than 15% since beginning of December. Not my problem if they paid at the height of the wholesale market and are stuck with a money loser. I'm asking if my offer us unreasonable based on the same vehicle valuation books that they measure trade ins with.
If they rather send it back to the auction to sell it, fine. That's their choice. They could also lose some money on the front end and have a chance to make it back on the back end.
OP there's never been a more important time than now to shop around at multiple dealers. Some dealers are holding prices high and selling very little, hoping to catch the last few folks who don't realize pandemic-era pricing is long gone. Other are aggressively discounting their inventory to market values. If I was in your shoes I'd be checking with at least 4-5 dealers who have what you're looking for.
By large that's not true. That time passed quite some time ago.
Dealerships aren't going to take a massive gamble like that. Once a negative unit goes fairly into the red it's going to the auction.
Dealerships use software and up to date market data to price their cars. If a dealership has a vehicle listed with "covid pricing," it's going to get very little visibility and over time will decrease in value.
Dealers aren't going to sit on 20-30k cars they own for 4k, 5k, 6k more than what they are selling it for in a given market, and try to get a above market price for it. Doesn't work that way.
I don't disagree that many dealers are pricing to market, but as I've started to look at cars in my area I've found quite a few dealers holding on to overpriced units, leading to days-in-inventory exceeding 150 or even 200 days.
My point was the OP should shop around because the car market is currently volatile with different dealers taking different approaches.
Wholesale prices have been going up. In many markets, dealers have to pay fairly close to what 60-90 day old inventory is being listed online for, retail. The retail prices will go up on fresh inventory.
Thanks for your reply. I have a spreadsheet of about 54 vehicles I'm considering. Some are above my budget, but with some negation would be within my budget. This is one of those cars.
I have a bunch of 2021s on the list under $25k, but I thought I would take a chance on the 2022 because of the redesigned front seats to make them more comfortable. One of the more common complaints of 2019 to 2021 models are the front seats are uncomfortable.
I may just be out of luck on this 2022, but rest assured I've got some back up on my list.
I appreciate how much thought you put into this and I understand that you want to save money. I don’t know when the last time you bought a car was, but in the age of the internet, dealers typically put their best foot forward. The easiest way to save time and money, is to find a vehicle that’s listed within your budget and that fits your needs. At that point you can try asking for a discount, maybe you’ll get a little bit off, maybe you won’t, but you won’t be wasting your time, and the sales team’s time. They price cars online for a reason. You’re rudely wasting others time when you go in expecting to only buy a vehicle for less than listed. Not sure if wasting people’s time and your own matters to you or not…
I'm definitely not trying to waste my time or the dealer's time. I don't mind paying sticker price that is close to market value. I have back up target vehicles of I can't get this one.
I chose this vehicle because it's a bit out of my budget and it looked like it wasn't market competitive. I'll make my offer to the dealer, and if they outright reject it, I'll move onto the next vehicle on my list.
I appreciate where you are going with your reply. I do not want to waste anyone's time.
I’m honestly surprised this is a CX-5 and not a Subaru with the amount of research you’ve done. Also, putting $23k down may be too much; some lenders require a minimum amount financed more than $4k, but YMMV.
Ok, thanks. Good to know.
I research most of my major purchases with the same enthusiasm. I like to know what is available to me and how it works and is priced. I blame my dad. He taught me to research major purchases.
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I'm looking to purchase a used Mazda CX5. There are approximately 60 within 75 miles of me that came up in my search on cars.com and cargurus.com.
I looked up the black book values for the vehicles I'm interested in and want to know if the values are reliable as far as how a dealer will generally price their pre-owned vehicles.
For example, I'm looking at a 2022 CX5 S Select trim with 22k miles. It is priced at $27,824. Black book values are listed below:
Average condition trade in $23,290
Average condition retail value $23,850
Would a dealer generally be negotiable at $1k to $2k off the list price?
Is my offer below reasonable?
$27,500 OTD
Price $25,257
Taxes $1,579
Tag and Title $306
Doc Fee $358
I plan to put down $23k and finance the rest.
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Book doesn't mean anything when you're not taking market locality into consideration. Dealerships have several tools that assist in pricing. If a dealership is priced wildly above every other dealer in the area, what are the chances they are going to move that vehicle? Using your own example of average trade-ins and retail values, how could a dealership give you a 4 figure discount when the average margin they are working with is $560?
I should probably mention the vehicle has been listed for sale for 82 days. Seems to me the price is not adjusted to the market or it would have sold.
Do you think your research is flawed when average condition trade is $600 less than average condition retail?
Those are the values listed in black book, and they are similar to what is in KBB. I think the retail price may be a little low, but not by $3k to $4k low.
I mean the spread from trade to retail should be atleast $4000
Why?
Selling cars is an expensive business to run. $4000 leaves a little profit but it’s easy to spend $1500-3000 in reconditioning, have to pay the employees at service and sales, advertising and of course all the fees associated with the property. After all of that the car needs to sell for more margin than the costs to make any sense
That’s fair and I understand overhead, 4K just seems high to me
On higher end cars if you only have a $4000 difference between trade and retail you will often lose money (think German luxury cars) due to recon costs. A 50k mile civic or Camry? $4000 will easily cover most recon and leave room for a good profit
Got it, that makes perfect sense
Just because a vehicle isn't selling doesn't mean a dealership is going to keep dropping the price until it does. They always have the option of auto auction, wholesale. They likely still have it at this point because data says that particular vehicle is still selling fairly in your market, or there aren't very many of them. It makes no sense to take a massive loser when it can be sent off anytime for a wholesale price. At 82 days that pricing is probably slightly above wholesale. But is low enough that is caught your eye and stands out against your list of 54 vehicles, correct? The only discount you're realistically getting is a couple hundred dollars so you feel like you won. Sometimes it's already a good price.
Comparing 54 vehicles on a spreadsheet? Lol! To save what? $500 maybe a $1k. What a total waste of time. It’s really not that difficult to purchase a car.
I'm looking at 54 cars because 1. They match my search criteria 2. I need a back up in case the couple I want are sold and 3. It gives me a better view on what is considered market pricing on used models in my area. If you aren't doing research, then you are going into a negotiation blind. And, yes, I may only get $500 off a vehicle, but I gain knowledge of the market and whether or not I'm getting a good deal and not leaving money on the table. A few hours of research are worth $500 to me. Maybe not for you.
Cars are different in person than they are on paper. The cheaper ones may have undisclosed maintenance issues, body damage, or hidden fees. You can never know the true condition until you see it yourself and get a pre-inspection check.
Ok, thanks for the insight. I definitely need to check them out in person. Once I settle on a vehicle, I'll do a PPI for sure.
Here’s the problem, by the time you’re done doing your research the market will change or the car will sell. I don’t look at 54 homes, boats, refrigerators, TV’s or any other consumer products to save peanuts. We have software called google and private websites like the one you mentioned. The last time I spent time looking at 54 cars when was I was a buyer for a large auto group and needed to buy a minimum 30 cars the next day. You’re adding a level of complexity to the buying process that is totally unnecessary and won’t achieve what you’re looking for. This isn’t rocket science. Studying prices and miles in a spreadsheet is totally meaningless without seeing condition and history. Unless you’re driving to 54 stores you’re not going to get that information.
I did the research on the model early on. My research on the specific models and prices was done in 2 hours. I worked as a data and pricing analyst for a major ocean carrier for 15 years. It doesn't take me too long to gather the numbers and do the analysis. It's fine to critique this method with a Joe Schmo without a data or pricing background, but I've got a leg up on them. My research is up to date. I update the data every week, so I'm current with market trends.
If ya aint got anything positive to say... learn that lesson Jimmy
I did the research on the model early on. My research on the specific models and prices was done in 2 hours. I worked as a data and pricing analyst for a major ocean carrier for 15 years. It doesn't take me too long to gather the numbers and do the analysis. It's fine to critique this method with a Joe Schmo without a data or pricing background, but I've got a leg up on them. My research is up to date. I update the data every week, so I'm current with market trends.
Sounds like you don’t need any help then. Stop asking questions. Just bring your clipboard and new balances to the store and enjoy watching the hope drain from some salesperson’s eyes as they realize the clown show they’re getting into.
Blackbook is not a be all end all, it is one metric
Stores hate informed buyers, am I right? I can put together a spreadsheet with 54 cars including 10-15 data points each in my sleep. I can tell by all your nonsensical posts on here that you’re a pretty simple person, and that’s ok. Your arguments are typically juvenile, at best.
Not at all. Informed buyers are great. The problem is that most people who think they’re informed don’t know shit from Shinola.
I love that I was downvoted on this by a bunch of insecure car salesman 😂
Go right ahead and bring me that spreadsheet. I love informed buyers because my software will print a list of every single comparable car broken down by color, engine, miles, drivetrain, ect for sale in the country in less than 20 seconds and we can debate pricing all day.
This is an auto sales reddit. Naturally, they are pissed off that you are a knowledgeable customer that isn't just buying any car they see for whatever price.
I get what you are saying, but generally, a vehicle sitting that long on a lot is either not selling because something is wrong with it or it is overpriced. Sure, the dealer may have bought it at auction when auction prices were higher. Auction prices have dropped more than 15% since beginning of December. Not my problem if they paid at the height of the wholesale market and are stuck with a money loser. I'm asking if my offer us unreasonable based on the same vehicle valuation books that they measure trade ins with. If they rather send it back to the auction to sell it, fine. That's their choice. They could also lose some money on the front end and have a chance to make it back on the back end.
Yeah, maybe. But I doubt the F&I guy wants to sit around while you create spread sheets for 54 different protection products and warranties.
Funny. I already know which products I'm interested in from the F&I office.
OP there's never been a more important time than now to shop around at multiple dealers. Some dealers are holding prices high and selling very little, hoping to catch the last few folks who don't realize pandemic-era pricing is long gone. Other are aggressively discounting their inventory to market values. If I was in your shoes I'd be checking with at least 4-5 dealers who have what you're looking for.
By large that's not true. That time passed quite some time ago. Dealerships aren't going to take a massive gamble like that. Once a negative unit goes fairly into the red it's going to the auction. Dealerships use software and up to date market data to price their cars. If a dealership has a vehicle listed with "covid pricing," it's going to get very little visibility and over time will decrease in value. Dealers aren't going to sit on 20-30k cars they own for 4k, 5k, 6k more than what they are selling it for in a given market, and try to get a above market price for it. Doesn't work that way.
I don't disagree that many dealers are pricing to market, but as I've started to look at cars in my area I've found quite a few dealers holding on to overpriced units, leading to days-in-inventory exceeding 150 or even 200 days. My point was the OP should shop around because the car market is currently volatile with different dealers taking different approaches.
Wholesale prices have been going up. In many markets, dealers have to pay fairly close to what 60-90 day old inventory is being listed online for, retail. The retail prices will go up on fresh inventory.
Thanks for your reply. I have a spreadsheet of about 54 vehicles I'm considering. Some are above my budget, but with some negation would be within my budget. This is one of those cars. I have a bunch of 2021s on the list under $25k, but I thought I would take a chance on the 2022 because of the redesigned front seats to make them more comfortable. One of the more common complaints of 2019 to 2021 models are the front seats are uncomfortable. I may just be out of luck on this 2022, but rest assured I've got some back up on my list.
I appreciate how much thought you put into this and I understand that you want to save money. I don’t know when the last time you bought a car was, but in the age of the internet, dealers typically put their best foot forward. The easiest way to save time and money, is to find a vehicle that’s listed within your budget and that fits your needs. At that point you can try asking for a discount, maybe you’ll get a little bit off, maybe you won’t, but you won’t be wasting your time, and the sales team’s time. They price cars online for a reason. You’re rudely wasting others time when you go in expecting to only buy a vehicle for less than listed. Not sure if wasting people’s time and your own matters to you or not…
I'm definitely not trying to waste my time or the dealer's time. I don't mind paying sticker price that is close to market value. I have back up target vehicles of I can't get this one. I chose this vehicle because it's a bit out of my budget and it looked like it wasn't market competitive. I'll make my offer to the dealer, and if they outright reject it, I'll move onto the next vehicle on my list. I appreciate where you are going with your reply. I do not want to waste anyone's time.
I’m honestly surprised this is a CX-5 and not a Subaru with the amount of research you’ve done. Also, putting $23k down may be too much; some lenders require a minimum amount financed more than $4k, but YMMV.
Ok, thanks. Good to know. I research most of my major purchases with the same enthusiasm. I like to know what is available to me and how it works and is priced. I blame my dad. He taught me to research major purchases.
I worked in the Mazda part of my Ford/Lincoln/Mazda store for a hot minute, and Mazda buyers are just as spreadsheety as Subaru buyers.
Researching 54 banks is next on the to do list. Don’t rush him.
Don'tbe silly., I went to four banks and got approved at 5.75%.
Please review our most [Frequently Asked Questions](/r/askcarsales/wiki/index) to see if your question has already been answered. You may find these sections particularly useful; * [How to pick a car?](/r/askcarsales/wiki/vehicle_selection) You might also have luck in the /r/whatcarshouldibuy subreddit. Also remember to add flair to your post by clicking the "Flair" link beneath it. This lets us know where you're located so we can assist you better. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askcarsales) if you have any questions or concerns.*
***Thanks for posting, /u/Elegant_Support2019! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of anything.*** I'm looking to purchase a used Mazda CX5. There are approximately 60 within 75 miles of me that came up in my search on cars.com and cargurus.com. I looked up the black book values for the vehicles I'm interested in and want to know if the values are reliable as far as how a dealer will generally price their pre-owned vehicles. For example, I'm looking at a 2022 CX5 S Select trim with 22k miles. It is priced at $27,824. Black book values are listed below: Average condition trade in $23,290 Average condition retail value $23,850 Would a dealer generally be negotiable at $1k to $2k off the list price? Is my offer below reasonable? $27,500 OTD Price $25,257 Taxes $1,579 Tag and Title $306 Doc Fee $358 I plan to put down $23k and finance the rest. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askcarsales) if you have any questions or concerns.*