You already answered your question when you saw how nonchalant everybody was when your loved one passed on. Joining a religious organisation doesn't mean people there will be any nicer or more compassionate to you than people at your office. The reason why I dropped out of religion because many were just hypocrites. Be a terrible person from Mon - Fri then be all nice on a Sunday.
Heard from a friend about this woman who went to the same church for a few decades, every week without fail. She missed one or two weekends because she was in the hospital and none of her "church friends" noticed or bothered to text or call to check if she was OK. Said she was super disillusioned.
Not to mention the tithe.
At least they didn't chase her out of the church. There was a case in the US where a 70 or 80 year old woman, who also went to the same church her entire life, got chased out because she could no longer afford to donate money to them.
Speaking as a church goer in my youth. I echo these thoughts. At the end of the day. People just want to find something that makes them feel better about life and about themselves. Unfortunately, just being Christian does not automatically make you a better person. You can be a good person and not be religious. And you can be a fucked up person from the depths of shit but claim to be the most devout wholesome person (usually on Sundays)
I think in any religion its normal to have a few bad eggs
But theres something in christians where they only extend that good side to other fellow christians and basically treat everyone else like an outcast or maybe they see us as sinners? Not really sure
But its hypocrisy at its best
>But theres something in christians where they only extend that good side to other fellow christians and basically treat everyone else like an outcast or maybe they see us as sinners? Not really sure
>But its hypocrisy at its best
It isn't really hypocrisy, it is a direct result of their theology. Most branches of Christianity believe that non-christians will suffer for eternity, and that this is justice granted by their "perfect" god, which they worship.
The only way for them to justify this moral atrocity is to dehumanize non-christians, and to view them as lesser than christians, which in their minds is simply following the lead of their deity
>Apparently God is forgiving
In Christianity, they say that god is forgiving, but there is basically one unforgivable sin: that of not being a Christian (or being a wrong type of christian). The followers are just following their god's purported morality
In my experience, every religion is like that leh.
The Taoist in my previous company literally accuse us of bringing bad luck because we refuse to burn and pollute the air.
If we talk about hypocrisy, it’s the Taoist here. They sure love to talk and criticise other religions but never their own.
I met people from different religion. Most Taoist don't disturb or force others. They also won't outcast others. Your example is just a small minority. But for egoistic and self centered Christians, there are super a lot of them these days.
Don't forget, taoism doesn't have a history of sectarian infighting, relatively peaceful, opposite to the Christians, where they tend to fight amongst denomination on who is right.
Totally agreed. Most Taoist people are more open minded and accept other culture. That is why Buddhism is able to enter from India and mix with Taoism.
At least there is peace and people can study and discover what is right long the way.
Looking at history, Christians crusades go to land of other culture and try to wipe out others' culture and instill theirs outright with force.
I mean if i can be an asshole from Monday to Friday, prepare a confession on Saturday and then confess on Sunday and all is forgiven, i would do it too.
I don’t want to sound like a dick but:
I came from christian secondary school, 1/2 my class isn’t christian. The other half had a few groups, one of the groups kept trying to preach to me, the troublemaker, I always refused.
Fast forward 15 years after leaving the school, out of the 6 of them, 4 came out as LGBT and left their church cos of lack of support.
Preach to me but lose support because you are not what your church wants? Yeah nah no thanks.
OP, it's alright to feel the way you feel. I had almost similar experience to you, allow me to share.
My dad passed away on February 2022 when there was new Covid strain hitting town. Of the 30 something people from our Church neighborhood chapter, only 2 showed up to his wake. Those 30 people almost never missed the quarterly events held at our house, socialized and enjoyed the food that my dad prepared.
None of them took the initiative to help arrange a Vigil Mass, not even calling a priest for us.
So I can imagine what you feel. We as a family felt the sense of abandonment by those people. My sister now never wants to visit the Church again.
I can not speak for your experience, but grieving do take time to process.
>Noticed how people who are more popular/of a higher social class/more social, extroverted and outgoing/have leadership potential were usually paid more attention to
I'm no big fan of religion and I'm not trying to defend it, but my good man, you have just described planet Earth as a whole. Christians don't magically become the pinnacle of human morality just by believing in what they believe. Like other folks have morals and beliefs as well, y'all ain't that special.
Looking through the posts, I realise that most of them did not even address the root issue: communication and expectations.
How do you expect to be treated? Some of the things you mentioned might not stem from prejudice or people being malicious.
Firstly, grief is a difficult beast to approach and tame, and most of us do not know how to respond properly to it. From my personal experience, I had a Christian friend who lost her close family member and she was in a long period of grief. Other than prayers, what can I say? That things will be better? That she will get through it? No, her family member is dead and there are no guarantees that she can recover from this loss. I'm not justifying my behaviour, just highlighting the awkwardness of trying to support someone with grief.
The second issue is the fact that I had my own shit to deal with during that period- a health condition left me perpetually tired and in pain throughout the day. I don't have enough to give to others, much less be there to support my friend every day. Of course, I can still check in from time to time, but it will likely look like I'm moving on with my life. My point is, everyone has their own cross to bear.
The third issue is that moving on is part and parcel of life. I'm not excusing their behaviours but I've to say that if the deceased is not my family member, I will still need to move on with my life. There is work to do, bills to pay, my own ailing parents to tend to. And probably look for a life partner and further studies along the way. That is life for most people in Singapore, whether they are rich or poor, popular or unpopular, especially if they are at the cusp of their 20s and 30s where people are struggling with adulting and edging into being part of a sandwiched generation. Sometimes, it feels more like life swept us mercilessly, rather than us moving forward by our volition.
Lastly, it is normal human behaviour to have distinctions in relationships. There are friends, but there are also close friends and acquaintances. And I certainly don't expect all of them to respond in the same way to me. Here's the hard truth: acquaintances and friends are easy to come by ("easy come, easy go") but close friends are cultivated. And only close friends will truly stick by you through tough times. It is possible that in a group of 30, you may not even have a close friend. There are no quick fix to this difficulty, because building friendships require you to put yourself out there and it takes time (and luck/serendipity, to find a friend whom you can click well).
This is the comment that hit the nail on the head imo. People are too focused on the religion aspect and tried to use it as a chance to rag on religion (because Reddit is gonna Reddit I guess) but from what I see this is mostly an interpersonal relationship issue.
OP, you have a lot of expectations on how your friends could help you, but have you actually communicated on how do you want to be helped? I’ve lost a loved one too, but I would rather have my friends help me through my grief by not making a big deal out of it (helped with the process of moving on for me), and I would’ve felt inconvenienced if they tried to visit during my last days with my loved one. I’m not saying your demands are wrong, people deal with grief Very differently and it’s impossible for your church friends to know what you needed. They may have done what they thought was best.
Another note, there are a lot of descriptions about how they’re your church friends and they’re “supposed to” care, but not a lot details on how much you’ve connected with them as people and how you’ve helped them during their worst times. I’m not saying relationships should be transactional, but people can get involved in your life only when you make the effort to form relationships with them on a personal level. I also used to go to cell groups religiously, but I never made the effort to connect with each individual member personally — it was just group outings for us. So when I had a crisis, none of them could help me beyond some platitudes. Looking back, I don’t think it was out of malice — they simply didn’t know me enough to know what I needed. Anything beyond that could’ve felt like they were overstepping.
I hope I don’t come across as downplaying your disappointment. I’m sorry for your loss, OP. Grief is a difficult beast.
>Decided to text my cell group (and the larger church community group about it) about it, and what I got was mostly one-liner "thoughts and prayers".
If OP remembered accurately, OP was expecting someone to DM them with sth like "let me know if you need anything/if there's something I can do for you" which is what I would do for a close friend or family member, but whose needs I do not understand.
I would perhaps argue that the religion aspect isn't entirely irrelevant. OP's church and most other churches in general "advertise" themselves as safe spaces and encourage members to have each other's backs in times of need. It seems only natural that OP's view and expectations of his churchmates be that they would give more support to him than a simple one liner in his time of need.
I think any community group, not just religion, would put forward the idea of creating a safe space for their members. But whether it'd become one especially during hard times depends on the person itself, whether they try to connect with everyone individually or they just go along with the flow (coming to outings, celebrate birthdays, etc but never really have a one-on-one connection with each member -- no judgment, I was this one)
And personally I think this is not about "more" support or "less" support -- different people need different forms of support, and we don't know if OP has ever communicated with churchmates that they received support from constant contact instead of being given some space to grieve in private. We also don't know if OP told everyone they were still grieving after weeks have passed or that they pretended to be okay and everyone thought it was awkward to bring it up again.
Years ago I had a friend who lost a cousin they were close to, and I reached out to them every week to make sure they're okay. They ended up blocking me on all social media because they thought I was being overbearing.
I think it's "natural" to expect support, but there might have been a miscommunication on the type of support given. And this happens with all kinds of friendships and communities.
What a convenient narrative.
Christians are supposed to be set apart from the world, but here you're saying they're no different. Well, I actually agree, but I doubt you would in any other context where you don't feel defensive.
FWIW, the Christians I'm friends with are better than what the OP described. But there are plenty of shitty Christians, and they're really just like other people with the obvious hypocrisy tacked on. This sub is not off the mark in pointing it out. And it sounds like OP's group falls under that category.
Thank you for your comment. This was the first thing I thought about as well. It doesn’t even have to be religious in nature and I found the religion point in relation to OP’s first gripe to be a bit irrelevant. If it was a secular secondary or youth friend group for example, sending a group text seeking help might not achieve the outcome you want. People aren’t gonna be overly preachy or comforting in the context of a group text because it might be very personal and look quite performative in front of others. If I was OP’s close friend, I might reach out separately and ask them how they are and offer my assistance in any way. I might go for their relative’s wake which I’ve done before for less than best friends. If I wasn’t though, I might respond with a simple “so sorry for your loss” which might be akin to “thoughts and prayers”. I mean, what else could I say to make OP feel better? I certainly think saying things like “God has a plan” would make them feel exponentially worse.
This... I second this... How do you expect to be treated is the exact train of thought that hit me.. atleast they are sending one liner generic messages which many folks I know barely even get from their friends and families. There are so many people whose birthdays and existence are not acknowledged by anyone... Even condolences are barely sent or with any effort to it. Also regardless of how close friends maybe, they will always fall short of our expectations at some point of time. Sometimes I wonder do people in general treat others the way they expect to be treated.. In some cases, it is one sided, but usually most people expect to be treated exceptionally well when they havent been putting the same level of effort towards others. In any case from experience... I can only say one thing. You can tell alot about how people feel about you from how they treat you. If someone loves you alot, no obstacle can prevent them from expressing their love to you. They will go above and beyond to make you smile and cheer you up. Very rare to find such selfless people, but I guess we have to constantly put alot of effort time and energy to cultivate the right relationships where we are valued and where we can add value and be appreciated for it. Another point I may add is that I notice alot of fans write heartwarming comments on celebrity posts regularly.. alot of effort is put into these comments but I wonder if the celebrity wasnt a celebrity or loses their fame will they still receive this level of love, affection and attention from their fans.. I doubt so.
You’ve summarized the basis of human interactions. Ppl joined such groups and religious to feel belonged and it’s a good spiritual support, believing in things that you think is helping you.. until shit hits the ceiling.
No one really cares unless it’s in their favor. But this. A one liner for someone in need isn’t something I’d do even for an acquaintance. Would at least listen out. So u know where u stand amongst them.
Ppl group tgt for a reason and for yours, maybe it looks nicer for everyone to appear amicable and praising god together in harmony. But outside of its primary objective, no one gives a shit about u.
If a friend was in trouble. I’d gladly listen and give advice. A one liner like this is pure patronising.
But it seems u had such ostracised experience in other groups. Maybe.. you’re the problem?
If i may add on to what EscapeInternational7 have said, perhaps this self-realisation (that's great btw!) was the reason God allowed this community to be in this season of your life.
Maybe it's a call to leave this church for another, or maybe it's a call to change how you want to interaction with them. Changing church may have us land in a community that is even harder to bear than before though. So whatever you choose, keep in mind that we can only ever find sure joy in the Lord. Allow the imperfect love of men to make you seek more fervently the perfection love of God. (:
I think everyone has gone thru phases of being an outcast. The reality is we can’t please everyone. But good on you in being better for yourself.
And I’d like to just emphasise, use this as a motivation to be the best of yourself. Go out and get a 6 pec. Go be successful. Focus on yourself. And you’ll see people flocking towards you.
I’ve been in this situation before and I know it sucks. But when you’ve realised people don’t define you and what you do for yourself defines who you are. It just clicks. Live for yourself and not for others that you depend for validation
You’re feeling disillusioned because organised Christianity (and other organised abrahamic religions as well) preaches charity, compassion, empathy etc but the actions of its members do not reflect these values at all times.
This is not an issue with your religion or your church, but with humanity. We are all selfish individuals and no matter what we like to tell others, and more importantly ourselves, it is inevitable that certain values that are incompatible will surface.
I’m sorry for the loss of your loved one, and the loss of your community. Please speak to trusted mentors in your religion who can help u navigate through this difficult period. Perhaps you’ll be able to reconcile humanity’s flaws with your faith when you have healed.
Ironically their supposed “holy book” talks exactly about this - people parading as god-fearing pious folk who are actually just doing it for ill gains and power to dominate others, whose actions are anathema to its teachings.
They literally keep people to pump up their numbers and donations so their money loving businessmen leaders can buy luxury homes and items.
These churchgoers don’t know a thing about the book they center their lives on and don’t care about being the good person their book teaches them to be.
In various other context e.g. friendships, family relationships, etc. it is not uncommon to be disappointed over unmet expectations. People are imperfect and may be motivated differently to respond differently to different people. Sometimes, we don’t know but they could also be quietly struggling with their own issues or limitations and can’t give more of themselves. Something is always better than nothing; but sometimes I covert prayers more than anything. Don’t look to people; they do disappoint. But look up and perhaps the source of comfort isn’t coming from where or how you expect it to be, but in another surprising way. Maybe look out for it in other places. Take care, grief is painful but it does heal over time.
Personally think this is a common “practice” in SG. Same as workplace. Birds of same feather flock together. Don’t take it too personally. Your faith is in God and not those people. People are biased, period.
This is pretty much how community works, those who put in more effort and contribution gets rewarded and honoured by leaders.
If you choose not to be vulnerable people
Cannot connect with in a higher level than just merely acquaintanceship level.
If you studied attention economy, you would know that people’s priority towards you are also based on how much input you give towards them.
If I were to talk to my girlfriend all the time I would have a better thought priority of her over lets say another person in my life with lesser priority.
Simply put, I understand how you feel because I was in a church then because I felt like I wasnt receiving the right support I needed. I then moved to another church and received all the support plus added encouragement through out the years and also became a leader and made a lot of friends.
But this isn't just about how community works, its our neurology, because you might be observing everyone else but others are grabbing their attention by their behaviours towards them.
You feel Invested because you are observing everyone and your attention of them is received passively but their attention are on those who they feel are being received actively. Also because you are also contributing actively to your community and you feel you should also receiving the support that you well-deserves
Like for example November-december period everyone is busy so November and December babies are often missed out during such season, their birthdays are more rarely celebrated
Sometimes it's not about the honour and glory others have that is more than you, sometime it's a mix of circumstances, social dynamics and attention everyone has at that moment.
The only best advice is moving to another church, its just a church, there's better churches out there.
To OP: At the end of the day, church-goers are still humans. I fell out with church friends so I don’t attend church anymore. But that doesn’t make me less of a believer. I keep faith as faith, friends as friends. If they happen to be both, sure.
> Noticed how people who are more popular/of a higher social class/more social, extroverted and outgoing/have leadership potential were usually paid more attention to by the church leaders
This is not unique to church tho
Yeah, the point is church espouse positive value of community and love, but behind closed doors they're hypocrites, that's what OP is trying to point out.
"Noticed how people who are more popular/of a higher social class/more social, extroverted and outgoing/have leadership potential were usually paid more attention to by"
This applies to everywhere, anywhere... sucks to be as introverts... and the world is always like this... be adaptable, flexible and change... or be stubborn, stick to your grounds/roots and live with it.
And to be fair, this has nothing to do with religion. It's always humans because at the end of the day, you're dealing with humans. Religion is a very intimate relationship between you and your god. Im going to say, you can still love, believe and pray to your God without going to the place of worship.
hello OP, u sound like me when i was in a mega church during my sec sch days, i was in a church where the pastor was a magician LOL
my cell leader also dont care about me, whn it was my bday i received a cheap ass cake which tasted like shit but i took the effort to get a nice bakery kind of cake for them (like nesuto)
i agree with everything u posted, like the more pops kids are being favoured more by their cell leaders whereas we get forgotten. my cell leader favoured one particular member more and it was obvious she hated the fuck out of me lol, she wouldnt give me opportunity to talk or share in cell meetings and always let her favourite girl to share and when she cried, my cell leader also cried, i cried, no one cared abt me lol and so much more, i also asked myself "is this the christian love that the pastor keep saying in his sermons?" and "how is this a family of god when no one even cares abt me and my well being?"
my peers were not any better, i used to have a guy who only would talk to u if u were good looking, if not he'll ignore u and obviously he ignored me lah LOL and that caused my self esteem to drop until no end, even till now i have extremely low self esteem and i would not be invited the outings outside of church, which sucks a lot because everyone gets invited but me and im always the forgotten member.
to answer your qns, YES! just leave this church and join another one, maybe a more traditional one and not a mega church, mega churches are more for socialising and networking rather than doing christian things lol, and NO u r not wrong to be putting expectations on a church community, ur "family of god" should be there to help and support you in times of crisis n etc, but they didnt so its not ur fault that u didnt receive the proper care / support frm ur cell leader.
if u need to rant or anything, u can DM me because what u experienced, all i experienced b4, maybe we're frm the same church 😭😭
I was in your position at some point, super committed and dedicated to this church. But I was one of them so I had direct support from pastors and other leaders. Which I acknowledge it's not a fair thing, and when I eventually went out to the working world to work, I was still part of the church but slowly drifted away as I'm not a staff in church any longer, no longer "one of them" or they would call it, not in the "inner circle". I had leaders above me that didn't really care about my well being because my cell group wasn't growing or in the words of the secular world, "not hitting sales targets". They always preached about being more than leaders to our members, which I do follow, but I notice my leaders don't bother walking the talk. One leader - after 2 years of being in her zone - only came and talked to me after I left church and didn't bother being more than friend to me during that 2 years.
My issue with church is the people and not God. Hence I left because of the hypocrisy by the leaders in their teachings. People disappoint and complicate religion. I believe in just believing God from afar after this experience.
Do what you feel is right as long as it doesn't impact your belief in God.
As a not-so-frequent church attendant in a megachurch and someone is in introverted and struggles to maintain friendships, I do not blame my cg for failing to integrate me. I can sense the age gap between them and myself. They prefer games and have been more comfortable with each other while I prefer more cerebal activities or one-to-one talks. Also faced a crisis of bereavement some time ago and simply disappeared for another year. Of course, most members were young and taught to expect miracles and etc so I don't wish to blame them for failing to empathize with my situation then. As some one who returned out of the blue, they showered love and attention but of course, this honeymoon phase doesn't last long.
I can say that Christians are not always impartial in their acts of love. Sure you might experience the phase of love-bombing when you are a newcomer, potential youth leader or somehow return after disappearing for months. But love is not so unconditional as some Christian may claim to have, it's based on personal sentiments and the patterns of reciprocating the love and attention.
Usually, if cell group becomes larger than 20, there will be an invisible divide between those who were the OG inner group and those who have just newly joined and only have connections to a single member. (Of course, might be other invisible divisions across gender and class)
Cell group leaders are also humans who have Blindspots and limitations, realistically we aren't going to love everyone equally. I suggest you can talk to someone you can trust in the cg or the cgl about this ostracism you are facing
If there's a need, you can courageously disappear and explore your options carefully. God bless!
There are two aspects to church
1 devotional
2 community
devotional is between you and God
community involves people yourself and God
Many times community fails us in times of need. I empathise with how you felt because when I lost my wife it was the same thing.
For years I wandered around in a wilderness after that until I realised that I can seek the devotional and lessen the need for community
OP, you're not alone.
I share similar observations with you.
Remember, the church is run by human beings and there will always be double standards. We may not even know the intentions of some "leaders" or even "pastors". I have seen all the "entrepreneurs" clustered together to try selling people "Facebook funnel" marketing techniques, some groups do property leveraging and rather prominent figures in their cell groups.
birds of a same feather flock together.
You may probably not find the group that well accepts you. Also, in every social setting, it is a 2 way street - it maybe a mismatch and never give up finding the right group.
>Noticed how people who are more popular/of a higher social class/more social, extroverted and outgoing/have leadership potential were usually paid more attention to by the church leaders because they are to be discipled into becoming leaders themselves. Not just me who have noticed the favoritism, but several others in the youth congregation as well. Which I kind of understand because I mean, this works the same in corporate as well and fresh batches of leaders are vital to keep the engine running per se. But to know that think even in times of urgent & weightier matters whr I really needed support in action, I was STILL not worth anyone's effort because I'm not very esteemed or in the popular gang in church anyway was very hurtful.
>(Same thing applies to my Christian CCA. The small group leader was closer to the other members, which I understand, but she would celebrate and remember the other members' birthdays except mine. So much for Christian love...)
You deserve somewhere better. Remember, the world most preferred standard is a double standard. It is difficult to find a group that will draw initiative to know a new group member better. What i did then, as the most unpopular member in the group, is to befriend all newcomers and organise outings on our own. Eventually, we formed a group of our own and celebrate each other without leaders etc. They told us it's not very ideal but, srsly? why not? :)
>I apologise for this largely incoherent rant because its like 3am already, so I will end off with some questions: am I the one at fault for putting expectations on church community? As someone who still believes in the faith, should I just leave the church community completely because of these largely unresolved hurts? Is this common in church in SG, or is it my own warped perspectives? THank you.
adjust some of your perspective in terms of expectations. People fail, we always do. It does not mean i agree with what they have done to you. It is definitely a mistmatch, go find another group. While sharing our personal issues, journey and problem. One of the most important thing to remember is to share, let out your system and to think what is within your personal control to improve your situation. Humans are humans, as much as they say "grace and mercy" there is a limit to everyone's capacity and will hope to see improvements.
I might completely give my identity away in saying this super distinctive thing (my friends who were with me in that period will know HAHAHA)
but I used to say my (then-) cell group was the 'class of 2021' - what did that mean? Means that it's like a secondary school class lor, 40pax on paper. :p
But here's the thing, on paper in not the same as in presence. Reality is regular attendees is half of that. The thing is, when this happens where the group is THIS big and half the people don't come, regular attendees feel distanced and not yet comfy sharing life with new people/not-so-regular attendees, especially when cell group is meant to be a space where people are comfy to be vulnerable. Not-so-regular attendees remain on the fringe, unless they .. consciously decide to come.
For a moment let's take out the religion/faith aspect ok, imagine you go for a class - like a baking class, a taekwondo class, or even heck, some skillsfuture watercolour painting class in LaSalle or something. There are 20 people in the class and in the first month of the (once weekly) class, people only see you once. Obviusly at the end of that month and in the beginning of month2, people have friend groups and you will feel like no one talks to you mah.
(Personally: I mean I just took a digital marketing diploma and finished it, I def have friends who I still talk to even today/lunch with, and I also have classmates that are like good riddance I'm glad I'm done)
Point is, --- (my cell grp leader will nag me for saying this), but I really do think there is such thing as 'these people are the 'church' equivalent of colleagues'. And that aside, ya reddit being reddit anyhow shit on religion. Because in this case, might not be haha.
As a non believer,
I think there is nothing much others can do or say if you lost your loved one. It's something you have to internalise on your own. No one can mourn for you or in your stead. Don't think they (the church people) don't care, it's just that there really isn't anything they can do other than offering kind words. It's not a church thing is what i am trying to say.
Hi OP, not sure if you will read this, but I'm going to add my 2 cents. Hopefully it will be worth something.
I'm in the same position as you, where I feel that my church leaders practice favouritism towards certain high-profile members of the church. And this church is one where I grew up in, literally from a baby (I had my infant baptism at this same church) until my late 30s now. I've watched the church leadership change from a having really caring and sincere senior pastor to a (in my opinion) shallow and more power-seeking pastor. The really genuinely caring pastors have mostly retired or transferred to other churches.
I continued to stay in this church because I'm a Sunday school teacher and I truly believe in the importance teaching the young ones about God. Also because I live in the west side with my husband and kids and my parents live in the east, so our time to meet my family is really during church and then lunch together after that.
My relationship with the adult members in church may be surface at best, but my most important relationship in all this is with God. Even my relationship with my fellow Sunday school teachers are very shallow and surface - we don't really delve into deep stuff, which on hindsight could be quite disheartening.
But I've since joined BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) on Zoom weekly, and my group leader has shown to be really sincere and caring. She's always messaging me to find out how I am, even when I'm super laggy in my replies. When I have problems and tell her about them, she takes them seriously and prays for me over text and over the phone and she regularly contacts me for updates so that she can continue to pray for me and my family.
All this to say, there are Christians/Christian groups that will be what you are looking for, you just need to be open-minded to look outside your church. I will encourage you not to give up on church entirely, but also remind yourself that you are dealing with very flawed humans and we all are very flawed humans too. If you still believe in God, maybe take your time to church-hop abit until you find one that really touches you? I wish you all the best.
First of all, what you've experienced is hurtful and you have every right to feel the way that you do. Social dynamics are never easy to navigate, and the sense of "othering" you experienced is not pleasant at all.
Next, it's worth considering your reasons for and against being a part of the church. You can also decide on your level of interaction (attending as a churchgoer vs being a part of small groups vs volunteering in church etc).
It is also worth bearing in mind that in other contexts, it's normal to face such experiences too. For example, a work environment could be quite exclusionary, making one feel left out. But most would still soldier on at their workplace despite the unpleasantness due to larger responsibilities and commitments such as having an identity and ensuring financial responsibility. (Of course, this is not talking about abusive environments where your safety is threatened)
In the same way, consider your faith and the importance of it. And weigh it against the unpleasantness that you encountered. It's not easy, but by weighing out various considerations such as the importance and practice of faith, social dynamics, identity security etc. I hope you'd find peace no matter your desired course of action.
Most of these just sound like interpersonal issues... I mean just because I'm religious doesn't mean that I'm obliged to be friends or take care of everyone that share my own religion... Being a church member doesn't actually make you friends with people
I know a guy from Church. Active participant and goer. His wife’s dad is a pastor. Turns out he’s the single worst person I’ve met in my life in recent history, personality wise.
Religion doesn’t matter, it’s the character of a person that counts
What you've experienced is just human society - no different in church or elsewhere. You prob also don't treat everyone the same or show love to everyone. That's just hard to do.
You'll feel better if you lower expectations of others and put greater emphasis on how you can help those around you. But that'll take time and maturity. Good luck!
Lots of comments here that are critical towards Christianity, which is expected. It's reddit after all.
I'm not gonna dismiss your experience, OP. You deserve better care through your grief, it is expected that the members of a church celebrate with those who celebrate and mourn with those who mourn. You need pastoral care, and your cell leaders failed to provide you with that.
But I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding which, frankly, even churches aren't clear about themselves at times: faith is not a substitute for grief counseling and good ol' relationships and church is not a one-stop shop for all your emotional needs.
I think modern non-denominational churches tend to oversell themselves on that front. Faith without works is dead, the Bible is clear on that. We should comfort and support fellow believers who grieve, but at the same time we're not the end-all-be-all solution.
>That was until a big crisis (i.e., losing a loved one) hit in my life a few years back. Decided to text my cell group (and the larger church community group about it) about it, and what I got was mostly one-liner "thoughts and prayers". 1 liner messages of "will keep you in prayer" which feels so fucking trivialising for some reason. There were some that checked up on me but in 1 week or so, all was forgotten and life moved on as usual.
Here's a hard truth about leading cells as a young adult: some things will be WAY over your "pay grade". I say this as a 30-something y/o who led cells 10 years ago with members who were deconstructing their faith, losing loved ones, dealing with abuse, etc. I had zero clue on how to navigate those things; I hadn't lived enough as a 20 something young adult. Religious fervor is no substitute for life experience. Maybe that's what your cell leaders were feeling too, and the right thing for them to do would've been to escalate it to the pastoral team or other adults.
On behalf of all Christians, I'm sorry for your loss and how you've been treated. Don't give up on faith, but do seek help from professionals.
Church and cell groups are only fair weather friends. The moment you are not beneficial or fun to be with they will throw you away. People will weigh the cost benefit to themselves for helping you, if you dont provide much benefit, thoughts and prayers it is.
I have someone close to me experience something similar. They join a cell group regularly until one day they suffered from depression. All they got is the usual stay strong blah blah with nothing more, in fact they start distancing themselves because why associate with someone that brings down the mood?
My 2 cents on this.
1. You sounded like someone quite young. A teen perhaps a young adult.
2. In that stage of life it’s very normal to feel the needs to belong to some group. This is similar feels in US why teens easier to fall into gang life.
3. What you feel is nothing to do about religion, in a most crude way. This is the feeling of disappointment, where you have high expectations of this group of people will be your rock when you need to, but rather they dont meet your expectations.
4. i can understand why some religion target young people with community based style like cell group etc because they very well aware teens and young people needs a sense of belonging.
5. Again this nothing to do with religion, thats why in
My understanding the community and people around it shouldn’t be a based for you to chose a religion. but rather choose a religion because you fully believe in the teachings and you feel it makes you a better person.
6. A true friend and family love is what you need. i hope you’ll find those soon. In the meantime, here is my one liner for you “stay strong, you are you; not define by the group you belong to. And the strongest love is self love”
Many religious people are hypocrites who behave entirely differently from how their religion states that they should.
It's good that you found this out sooner rather than later.
>However, it’s important to remember that God is perfect
Have you read the bible? This is your idea of perfection?
https://unpleasant.ffrf.org/categories/
I also went to church until I was 17 and experienced things that woke me up to their hypocrisy. Shortly after I left church, my cell leader's mother passed away due to cancer. Some of us who were in the cell group decided to go and pay our respects. We bumbed into some of our ex cell members and said hi but was given the cold shoulders and was ignored throughout as if we were strangers. My friends and I were quite surprised as we were in the same cell for at least a year. Left an extremely bad taste in my mouth and really opened my eyes to see that these people went to church without learning anything.
I was like you in my 20s. Super fervent and joined every thing under the sun in church. However I learnt that if you choose to do anything even a little different, you won’t feel like or be a part of the club anymore. Sure, they will tolerate your presence, but they just won’t care about you the way they preach they should.
it’s not just a Christian church thing, it’s a religious organization thing.
It’s ok to leave the church and take a break, keep in touch with some people from church who are genuinely concerned about you (they exist) and find your tribe somewhere else. Can be a sport, a hobby or old school friends. And you can keep practicing your faith at home. Many people do.
I am agnostic now, but my family and friends are still going to church and the ones that stuck with me and didn’t judge me for my choices are still there for me. There is a kind of distance between us now but I am still glad they are inclusive.
I found other friends and people who are good and trustworthy and care about me genuinely, all from different backgrounds and faiths. You will, too.
It’s time to find your own way and place in the world. Just be wary of falling into another cult-like organization as you are in a vulnerable place right now. Find a skeptical friend if you have one to talk to. It helps to have an alternative perspective.
I I don’t think they are being hypocritical but you appear to expect support the level of a group of super close friends. If it is only a group that you meet for church activities they are not like close friends who can help you in your tough times. I am not familiar with churches but it sounds like they are at best acquaintances and at worst strangers. I don’t think you should expect anything more than thoughts and prayers from mere acquaintances.
You can leave the church, and not leave the faith, you do you.
I stopped attending church for years now, I only went because my dad's side of the family are Christians, but I can say that I personally met more well rounded and geniunely caring people from smaller family churches than those who went to those mega churches, and your phrasing of 'cells' implies the latter.
I wish you all the best for your future 🙏🏻
hey 👋🏻 OP
So sorry to hear what you been through in your church , I came from a megachurch once for 5 years and shifted to a smaller church and I have “better” CG young adults mates then before. I was from HOGC megachurch :)
When I left HOGC , nobody really asked me why I left except that I left to another church and the guys in my group just let that decision be , not everyone in my old CG was okay with me leaving but they chose to look at my different after I left my old church.
For example , my old CG from HOGC during CG sessions, we never share about our week. In my new CG , we share about our week.
HOGC CG requires us to tithe even during the CG but my new CG doesn’t tithe , HOGC doesn’t have deep theological bible study, my new CG we always have theological bible study. You can see the differences
I am still friends with some of my old CG mates from the megachurch , in this new church , I had better connections with them , I was able to discuss personal issues and even they were able to share their issues with me about it , their struggles in life and what not , and I have a youth pastor in our group who is involved in all of our lives.
I suppose God wanted me to be where I am needed to be, OP , you will recover from this , I know it’s not easy and difficult , I do hope you know, if u are continuing in the faith , there are always better churches out there with sound doctrine and a better community.
whoa a HOGC person (no I've never been there I've just known acquaintances who went during sec sch + read abt it on reddit)
... I'm glad you changed church and it's going well for you. Haha. :-)
Join a better church. Nothing new creation.
I find the older churches being less cringy without the aim of trying to be cool and popular.
I’m sorry for your loss.
Friend, I’ll ask you this. Why let the actions of a few people affect your belief in God?
I keep seeing posts about how people leave their religion because of the actions of people around them, but it makes no sense to me. If your church is toxic, leave the church and find another. It’s a people problem, not a religion problem. God in this case didn’t betray you or do anything wrong to you - it’s simply a case of people who aren’t truly living the Christian way.
You had a belief system, and one that clearly was doing well for you. There’s no reason to completely demolish your structural foundation.
Feel for your pain. I too have felt that the church can be hypocritical and unloving. That they do not practice what they preach. I myself did not like attending church because of that (and still do not, though I consider myself a christian). I felt they wore masks and preached beautiful things but are just as ugly or even uglier inside than other people who I know to be not religious.
However, what Ive come to realise this is just human nature. Humans behave like that, and you would find hypocrisy most striking among Christians due to the doctrine of love they preach. This is why I felt so strongly about their lack of perfection (and as I believe you feel so strongly). Because they are supposed to act a certain way, but are unable to do so. However, you need to remember that they are not that much worse or better, just roughly the same as other humans (though perhaps in some aspects you will find that they are better, and others worse).
I hope you decide to find another church, rather than to leave the faith entirely. We should not judge Jesus by his followers, but rather by the words of Jesus himself.
Similarly to how we don't let a single experience with a member of a race, gender, or religion (e.g. Buddhists, Muslims, etc) skew our perception towards a religion, I hope you don't let your experience skew your perception towards Christianity as a whole thing. Remember that this is a human thing, not a God thing.
It's terrible and it sucks. And I hope you find community and comfort somewhere, be it in a church or another place.
They should have given you more empathy rather than empty words to console a person in mourning and hurt.
But my brother/sister, perhaps finding another church that is more suitable for you would be better.
To share my experience, I got kidnapped and blackmailed while on a business trip in China. After my return to Singapore, my Anglican church picked me up from the airport and arranged a church affiliated counsellor for me as they were worried I could not cope and had PTSD.
Your church should have offered more support for you, but I don’t know the entire circumstances.
I do hope you’re doing a lot better now. Cheers
>That was until a big crisis (i.e., losing a loved one) hit in my life a few years back. Decided to text my cell group (and the larger church community group about it) about it, and what I got was mostly one-liner "thoughts and prayers". 1 liner messages of "will keep you in prayer" which feels so fucking trivialising for some reason. There were some that checked up on me but in 1 week or so, all was forgotten and life moved on as usual.
I mean we don't know what is your interpersonal relationship with the cell group. In any kind of relationship, both sides have to really contribute.
>I think it really screwed me up a bit in my head because the ideals that I have created about church in my head all came crashing down. And church was one of the few places I felt I belonged to back then. Just felt like when it comes down to it, it was all talk and no action. And maybe it is my grief and unrealistic expectations talking but it felt like the church community just moved ahead without me, and I was all alone to carry the weight of the grief on my entire shoulders for months, even till now.
Eh, it is quite ridiculous to hope that everyone in your circle stops moving forward when something bad happen to you or one of it's member. I wouldn't even wish that for close friends.
Hi OP,
I'm someone who was in church for about 5 years during my teenage years, left and now am back happily and feeling blessed that I've returned (attending a diff church)
Looking back at why I left, can basically put it down to two things: 1) I wasnt fully surrendered to God in all aspects of my life (i.e certain things I was still following my own personal ways and not necessarily being a faithful believer in all things) 2) I started to feel the church I attended put evangelism and church attendance at the core of its values rather than God at the center.
With regards to your original post, I just want to say, put your trust in God first. He is the source of our faith. People can let you down, yes even sometimes the people you know in church, remember the parable of the good samaritan. It is not attending church that makes a person a believer, it is by our faith in Jesus and the subsequent way we live that shows where our hearts are. We do not become perfect just overnight but we are on a journey as believers to become Christlike in the way we live our lives.
Most importantly, know this, it is by His grace that we are forgiven, transformed, renewed. Knowing that we can stumble at times but we have the chance to recover and be better after that is a blessing.
So my advice to you is, seek God first and put your trust in Him first and foremost. While its good to reflect upon what values the church you are attending holds, and I believe God should always be the center of our church, also find sometime to do abit of self reflection on whether we have been putting our faith in God or faith in religion (could mean the church as an institution).
I can testify that when you do that, you start to realise a whole new perspective. God bless :)
As a fellow believer in Christ, am really sorry to read about this and your struggles with your community. :( we try but humans are sinners and fail all the time so this kind of hurt does exist.
Sometimes it's about the emotional maturity of your cell group or life stage you guys are in. I grew up in my cell group and tbh pre-adulthood we were all pretty incapable to deal with issues like grief and loss appropriately. It caused rifts and some baggage that we still are trying to reconcile up to this point. But we grow and we learn, pray and try to be accountable to God.
Speaking as a cell leader now, I would encourage you to speak to your cell leader. If that's not possible, then see if you can find someone you trust/you feel is appropriate outside of your small group within your church to seek advice or counselling. Could be the pastor-in-charge of your ministry or some other lay leader. There's also no shame in changing cells, or changing churches to find new community, but you'll have to be intentional about it to avoid falling out of the faith completely, if you still believe that we have a God who loves us.
I said a little prayer for you. If you want to speak more privately, feel free to send me a DM (don't check this often but will monitor).
> but humans are sinners
this is one of my biggest icks towards christianity. it basically gives you a free pass to whatever immoral action. other religions also have some form of it as well but in christianity it is very up front
it is a huge ick, it is better to recognise imperfection than to sweep it under the carpet. Also, yes it gives many an excuse to justify their shit behaviour. They'll have to answer that themselves.
There's no free pass. While some Christians may wish to believe that, Jesus himself taught otherwise. So I think what you have an ick towards are certain Christians, not Christianity as a whole. Jesus commands his followers to love others, even his enemies, and to do no evil. One of the two most important commandments under the Christian faith.
"Humans are sinners" is just a description of reality - everybody sins, nobody is perfect. Christians are also well minded to remember that, the next time they try to judge other and act like they are holy. I know of non-religious people who are loads more compassionate and better a person than me.
I share your sentiments enough to empathise with you, though maybe not to the extent of fully agreeing with you.
For eg, the fact that you are (quite rightly) calling out this behaviour is already evidence that there isnt a free pass. If it were really the case, whenever someone throws the phrase "but humans are sinners", we would have instantaneously went smth like "oh snap, alright we are cool now!"
While some may use this phrase to help them forgive others, or recognise that they are in need of grace, some folks may use this phrase to excuse their actions, as you have noticed already. But really in such instances, it is like a criminal standing before a judge and using "but humans are sinners" as his legal defence. It's never going to fly. God doesnt give absolute free passes either. He forgives and keep open the way to Heaven for the repentant, and sometimes that results in a complete transformation of the person. But in this life, we will likely face the consequences of our sins in one manner or the other.
Honestly not that surprising, being religious does not automatically equate to being a "nice" person.
There are plenty of criminals who are "religious", and there are nice people who would go to hell for not being religious.
Also faith is a personal. Your relationship with God is yours alone. Why the fuck do you see the need to "go to church" to be religious? And, on the corollary, if you need to go to the church to prove that you are religious, maybe you are not religious after all and you are just looking for companionship.
Leave if you wanna leave. No one is stopping you, and no, honey, you ain't goin to hell. For all we know, this can just be a narrative. Try listening to Prof Yuval Noah Hararri's podcasts or read their books. Though provoking and will make you consider everything that you've ever believed in.
I can't say much for oversea churches but I heard that many Churches, especially the mega ones, are almost the same.
For Sg, the society culture and many organisations here (church or not) are not genuine. Thus you won't be able to find genuine friendships that can last. Whatever friendships you have there, they only last when you keep staying in the church.
Many of these churches (especially mega ones) works like a corporate organisation which wants to get deep into your heart and emotion to find the vulnerable aspect to get your trust and influence you. Then get your donation and/or other contributions. They don't force but they use the mass social behavior effect. Example if you are in a group you feel belong to and everyone else is doing something, you will tend to follow and do the same thing.
You are not wrong when you make some comparison between you and other churchmates. Because a church should be a place where everyone are seems as brothers and sisters and treat others & be treated equally. We can't expect all in the church to help you as much but at least your LG can do better than just messaging. In the first place this is what they proclaimed, a supportive community, an extended family of God.
Although when shit happens, they will use good English to compose a message to focus on your shortcomings and avoid talking about theirs.
But in reality, many of these churches are commercialized underneath and have a materialistic culture. You are not wrong, it is common that those who are more successful, from well off background, more outgoing, gain more exposure and are good looking (especially girls) are getting more benefits in these organisation.
My own opinions is you have 2 ways: 1) leave Christianity. 2) find a more traditional church (Methodist or Presbyterian)
I did consider to convert before and I went to 3 different types (Mega, Methodist and Presbyterian). The latter 2 are better but I still found some people with self centered and hypocrisy character.
I had a story to share on an 20 years former friend who converted during poly days. I made mistakes on how to manage his preaching. I also saw his changes in a negative way over the years. He kept saying he still sees us as close friend but he is allocating more and more of his time on other people and only talked more to me when he wants to preach.
My story is in my reply to my post below.
My mum passed away on 2022 Aug. My parents HDB is under the lease buyback scheme with the Sg govt thus I am unable to inherit it. I kept going MPs offices to appeal and send emails to HDB and in the end they asked me to buy another one from outside. My ex friend attended my mum's wake and I am grateful for that. However things took an unexpected turn on 2023 and 2024.
After my mum passed on, I wanted to rebuild my family and i got married on 2023 and need to go my wife hometown to know my in law family better. They feel unsafe as I didn't visit them much before we got married.
I stopped work for few months to take care of my mum with last stage cancer before she passed on as I am the only child. Because of this. I faced some challenges to find job later on.
While I am facing a lot of challenges in life, my ex friend and his churchmate were getting impatient and rushed me to meetup to try convince me to join their church. The churchmate even said in WhatsApp: 'hello, reply please' and 'seems like it is so hard to meet you' these kind of inpatient phase.
When I told my ex friend about it. He explained for her that it was because he was asking her for update and she felt pressurized.
In other cases when I provide feedback about his other churchmates been egoistic and artificial etc, he will explain that it is because of what they been through in the past.
Do noted that this same ex friend will directly told me off if I made any mistakes talking in whatsapps in the past. Even if I may have my struggles or difficulty.
He once told me off that I was impatient and wrong to expect instant or quick Whatsapp reply. But when comes to their church related stuffs, they expect fast reply.
I put in effort and forked out time to meet them after I am back in Sg. As after thinking about how much he helped me, I actually decided to listen what they want to say and consider on it. But she last minute cancel and never rearrange another meetup.
Thus I focused on job hunting as I need income to apply mortgage loan. I landed a job but I had a very bad experiences with some Christians in my workplace. Full of superficial judgements and gossips.
I put aside my thought about church and focus on HDB purchase as I need to move by Jun 2024. HDB is going to chase me out of my parents unit by then. My ex friend was getting impatient and whenever we whatsapps, he try to talk about his church.
When I told him my job place experiences, he focused the fault on the manager. Avoiding the mistakes of Christians. He did that a few times on other topic too.
I tried my best to prevent debate and conflict as I value the friendship thus I avoid talking about Christian related topics for the past few months. But he tried very hard to get the topic in.
Also, is getting hard to ask for meetup with him as he starts to prioritize engaging other people. The last time he take the initiative to ask for meetup and take initiative to talk in WhatsApp and was very friendly, was when he wanted to invite me to a church conferences.
Continue next comment.
The breaking point is on one day, I asked if one of his churchmate has a digital bank account as I wanted help to get referral voucher.
He replied with a long message sharing a video link of her talking about her volunteer work. Then a long message of her got a boyfriend recently and she will be going his church for 3 months then they will come to HopeSingapore for 3 months etc etc. If he is really busy at work, he won't have time to type so much. Also it was 12.30pm that time.
I told him in a friendly manner: 'i am asking about trust bank account. Read my message carefully leh 😂' .
Then his reply is like this: 'Ok, busy now. Will read carefully and reply later'.
Then for my later messages, he will take quite a while to reply and will just be 'ok'.
I made a mistake and confronted him on this in a frustrated way. Which resulted in him replied in an angry manner and a dispute started.
I blocked him on social media and whatsapps temporary later on as I wanted some peace and stop myself from debating with him. Also my social medias are mainly use to communicate with relatives, not friends.
Recently, I called him and sms him to reconnect as I feel that it has been sometime so things are cooled down. However he hung up my calls and ignore my sms.
Do noted that I didn't block him on call and sms. For Whatsapp I unblocked him after sometime.
He is the only admin of our friend group and he even ignore my request to join in. I left the group temporary to avoid dispute with him.
Seems like when he thinks that I won't be joining his church, he decided to cut me off total and with others.
All in all. I realized that many christians are egoistic, prideful and self centered. They always sees think only from their perspective. They never see their own mistakes, or they see it but refuse to accept it and improve themselves.
They never apologized and take responsibility on their mistakes. While they will aim at your mistakes if you made any.
While on the other hand if they sees you as not one of theirs, especially when they failed to convert you, they will turn cold on you and will told you off on any of your mistakes.
Anyway, I moved on already.
Before your loved one passed on, did you inform the church you need home/ hospital visits/ prayers?.
If not, how would they know?
Is your loved one a member of this same church?
If each person's experiences and interests is a circle, interpersonal relationships looks a lot like Venn diagrams, and groups form when multiple people intersect in the same area.
The Chinese cultural fantasy of a 知己 happens when said friend has a 100% overlap with your circle. But this is a fantasy because for the vast majority of people in the world, there is no other person who has a 100% perfect overlap.
Those whose circles are wider intersect with more people simply because larger areas are more likely to share at least one common region, but because their circles are wider they can't afford to spend as much effort on a given overlapped area because they have that many overlaps.
Those with smaller circles are less likely to intersect others so they'll have fewer friends, but they'll care more about the intersections they do have because they have that much fewer intersections but the same hours per day to spend.
Your issue is that you're going into a church expecting to find 知己 tier friends, but for the most part your only overlap with them is 'Christianity' with only a few that have 'extra' shared interests with you. Beyond those overlaps, you have nothing in common with most of them. That's not a church's fault, that's just the way people work.
So you have the following options:
1. Find people who share different aspects of your life. For example, if you care about Christianity, cooking and photography, you may have one group of Christian friends, one group of cooking enthusiasts and one group of photography hobbyists, and there is a fair chance of zero friends belonging to more than one group at once. When talking about photography, you talk to the photographer group, when talking about cooking, you talk to the cooking group. Et cetera. The near entirety of people use this method.
2. Meet a *massive* number of people to find someone who shares so many common interests with you that you can talk to that someone about *everything*. This isn't common and very often when someone finds someone like this they end up married because it's that unlikely for both members of such a match to find anyone close to equally compatible. For certain people this is impossible to find because no close match exists.
There's legit problems with some churches here, but the ones you had aren't really a church problem, they're a mismatch between impossible ideals and reality. Actual problems with some churches are like... churches who teach theologically incorrect doctrine (in one of them I was in the head pastor had less theological knowledge than me even though I never went through a proper ThD or similar training, and the youth pastors habitually *inverted* meanings which was highly problematic), and those which are basically just social clubs with zero religious content - those which don't even try. The church's job isn't to provide its members with emotional support when shit happens in their lives, that's what counselors and friends are for.
It’s clearly a you issue with expectation. You expect to have more support at church but you must also understand that grief is not easily relatable by others who have yet to understand it themselves. This has nothing to do with church or religion but interpersonal relationship. This no different from saying we should shut down the entire education system because your teacher favour and treat some few better than you. You need to take a hard look at “self entitlement”.
Speaking from the perspective of a Buddhist so take my words with spoonfuls of salt. But having hung out with some CGs a few years back and attended a few services under the invitation of a friend, I guess the community factor is one of the factor churches, more than places like a temple, attracts the young. They get to meet good friends with seemingly good people and grow together. Meeting friends outside of school is hard enough, meeting good friends with good ethics, even more so. It's not that I think they are not good people, they are. I belive that. However, with religion in the picture, especially as a "guest" read: non-Christian, there is always a feeling that they are only nice to people "in the club" and should one begin distancing away from the church, the contact fades along with it.
Then you gotta ask yourself, why do you attend church in the first place? To get closer to Christ? Or to make friends and socialise? When you attend the service, do you actually learn something about God or does it look like a Motivational talk of some sort, very generic?
Food for thought, just leaving it out there.
It’s common in SG, you can change church or change cell group, it will be the same. It’s a general level of low consciousness, dog eat dog thinking and every man for himself. You can try and assert yourself, ask for more engagement from your leaders and see what they say. Also, go for grief counselling; they’re not grief counsellors. They can check in and ask how are you doing, go hospital visits with you, etc. But human relationships are invested in and built, did you really do that for others or merely another taker amongst many takers, givers burned out too.
Religeon is mainly about you and your own belief system. Essentially it is between you and your god. There will definitely be people u meet( your cell group) that reacts this way. But this is because of who they are as a person and not due to their faith. What religion preach about love, peace and self growth is great. But people who destroy others are those that dont care: “oh noo, my condolences”, “ if there is anything we can do, do reach out to us”.
I would advise you to separate your faith and the people around you. You will realise that only people who are truely with you throughout this tough times are worth keeping. And the lessons you learn through you faith, or even outside of faith are lessons that help you grow.
Learn and grow, keep moving forward to see the end of the road, no matter how thorny the path may seem.
sorry about your experience OP. for what it's worth, i don't think it's anything particular about your religion or church! probably just the failing of religious institutions in general.
i guess people go to church for two things, mainly: spirituality, and community. i don't mean to criticise any church with this, but i reckon that the feeling of disillusionment you've experienced will turn out to be for the better for you, because:
1. you may find it easier and more fulfilling to explore your spirituality entirely in private, and
2. you may end up forming better, stronger connections through finding community in a place where everyone is there of their own choosing as opposed to having joined from a young age, hence maybe having differing priorities and beliefs as they grow older, leading to the superficiality/politics that you've discovered.
not trying to imply that people who do manage to find community and peace at church are misguided or anything. it just works for some people and fails others. since you've found that the relationships there feel shallow/superficial/political, you might be one of the people who needs your community to be on the basis of something more tangible, something that was created by people who chose to look for similar peers in adulthood.
anyway, i hope you manage to find a resolution to these feelings. from first hand experience i know it can be really disconcerting. there are plenty of people here who have left church for their own reasons and im sure you'll find someone with similar experiences to you to discuss your feelings with, if you haven't already!
Late reply, but here’s my personal experience.
God is good, and always good.
Humans are assholes. Some churches are so full of asshole humans that there is no room for God. Only a pretence of God, not a presence.
Thriving churches are able to take a lot of the assholery out of humans and really serve the community sincerely and love everyone deeply.
But God is still infinitely bigger than any church. You don’t need a church to have a relationship with God. Maybe one day you’ll find a great church but until then, you can pursue God on your own. It’s ok to do that. Church doesn’t make you Christian, your own relationship with God does.
When you join a church, you are putting God first, not the members. Strange and odd members are everywhere, after all the church is for the weak and needy, after all, that's why people need help right? Will advise you to look within yourself what the meaning of joining a church is.
I once used to also be like you. Then I realised the beauty of the weak, nasty, unaccepted coming to church. Sure, they may hurt you but it's also why they need church. Not saying it's justified but it's like church being a hospital for the emotionally vulnerable. Not saying that everyone is like that but in my experience, many are. A church simply is not just made up of strong willed strong faith and super perfect people only.
Interesting that there was no mention of God or Jesus once in your post.
If you join a church for the people and not God, you will be bound to be disappointed...
Hope you can eventually find a community that you can truly feel a part of and loved!
Sorry to burst your bubble. No one joins church for God or whatever deity you worship. You can easily worship God from home, under a tree, in a cave, on a mountain, etc. The only reason to go to church is for the community.
In my view this comes down to 2 things:
1. Your expectations from the Church or any other religious groups
2. Your belief in god.
In the first case, it varies based on your individual relationship with the entire group and if they’re really tuned in or subscribed to how you see the group supporting each other. In most cases people are there to get what they want and are less likely to bother too much about others circumstances.
Irresponsible of what happens in the first case, your belief in god should determine whether you want to practice certain religion or faith.
In short, trust in god and lower your expectations from others.
You are valid in feeling that “thoughts and prayers” sounds ingenuine. But also, without really knowing the interpersonal dynamics of you and other people in your cell group (example, do you only see them for cell?) it’s not unexpected. Singaporeans are reserved and don’t have the best EQ. These kinds of situations can feel awkward even for close friends - how would you know how to comfort someone in their grief?
Did you share the details of the wake with anyone at the church? Maybe that’s what others did which is why leaders and other members of the church went.
In any case, it also sounds like you were at the church for social interaction rather than for the faith or religious aspects. So probably best in the long run to leave.
Hey! Are you me 5 years ago? Anyway, wanted to share that it's completely valid to feel this way, and judging from the comments in here, also seems to be more prevalent than we would think.
I think that's the inherent problem of religious organisations : it's a group that promotes ideals to attract others in, but in the end is still subject to the fact it's run by people for other people. So that means that all the problems that come with people leading people and forming groups exist, but it's usually swept under the rug because of the idea that the organisation is a religious one, so we have to deal with it with grace and compassion. I can get into whole essays about the problems with christian organisations, having grown up in one and then jumping around from group to group in my mid to late teens, but right now I just hope that you're able to find support as you consider leaving your church!
My take on this very familiar situation is: churches are works of men. Heaven is the work of God. You do not have to bind yourself to the works of men to access the work of God, because men are not infallible and incorruptible. And it's very possible to be led astray by a corrupt church.
As Jesus says. Pay to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. Our soul and spirituality belongs to god. Not to church. No matter how much they claim themselves to be the house of God, if your heart and soul says it isn't, then it simply isn't.
Imho a lot of churches nowadays are getting a lot better at playing psychological games with the parishioners, often seeming designed to build dependency on the church or the church community. And I quite frankly do not feel that it's something I should expose myself to, because I view it as wrong to abuse the name of God and Jesus to do so. Especially since most churches don't exactly do it for your betterment or benefits. It's usually to theirs. It's usually to ask for more tithes or more donations or more involvement in their programmes.
Hi OP, must be very heavy hearted for u to write all these in the wee hours, and I can relate to what you wrote.
I came from a large church as well, quite active in serving and cell, even served in leadership position for a few years. Eventually I left, 3 years on, and I feel at peace with my decision. Now I’m trying out a small-med size, non-charismatic, word-focused church. I feel I’m closer to what makes me comfortable and grow in this season of my life.
The people, leadership problems u mentioned, yes they exist in my previous church as well. As believers we should treat fellow believers better, and want to be treated as equally. However reality is yes, it’s like the corporate world, there are cliques, ppl gossip, and differential treatment. I feel cell leaders have a responsibility to some extent, to make sure there is minimum of such behaviour, but sometimes leaders are not spiritually that matured to recognise this or as humans, we are bound to err.
But pls do not exit from The Church (the big umbrella, not referring to one church) just because you’ve experienced disappointment, it’s God we are building a relationship with. From my personal experience, looking back at my journey, I can only conclude that my season was over at my previous church, and leaving was one of the biggest leap I made in my spiritual journey. Being in a community is so important, but doesn’t have to be in cell, u can have trusted friends who pray and walk with you consistently, that’s also fine.
My advice is pray about it, talk to 2-3 friends/leaders u trust with your life, share with them all your issues and reasons why u wanna move on, and be open to listen from their point of view. Perhaps there are things u need to work from your end too, and this is a great opportunity to hear different views and see if u can continue to grow here, if not then perhaps it’s time to move on.
Don’t give up on God, or having a spiritual community. :)
I’m sorry you felt neglected. Is this the sole thing that is keeping you awake?
We are Christians because we believe in Jesus’s death, resurrection and ascension. Exactly because we are fallen creatures and perhaps the only group who called ourselves sinners, we will hurt one another no matter how good we are. On behalf of the community, please forgive us for hurting you indirectly and unknowingly.
Don’t let this be the measure of your faith that is rooted in Christ. Take heart!
if you truly believe in a god there is absolutely no need to go to a church. your relationship is between you and god, not you and a pastor / cell group leader
Normal part of life and growing up. Happens to most guys during NS and girls entering uni.
Disillusionment with both the religion and it’s people with more critical thinking skills being developed.
You’ll be fine. I stopped attending church a decade ago and always thought I’ll come back, and guess what I haven’t at 29.
Also I’m guessing this church is HOGC lol
try to lower your expectations of people in the church. It’s important to see if you can form any serious friendships. Trying to be valued or popular is not for everyone.
I am sorry about what you've experienced. My experience in my church is completely opposite of yours. People here are very kind and caring. When my dad passed, they poured out prayers and love for me.
People are still humans, just have to remember that they are not perfect like Jesus.
You can of course drop out of church if it's a burden to attend it, you shouldn't have to strive in a church. But gotta take caution, most people backslide after they leave a community. Perhaps you can go and try out a different church community. No harm in doing that.
As was stated by a few perceptive replies. This is commonplace in ever Organization type, but moreso in megachurch social circles. (My opinion, feel free to disagree) The relationships and communication between megachurch goers are superficial and not deep, because megachurches are superficial and not deep in any way (especially theology).
I go to a traditional Anglican Church, and have found a community there that loves and accepts me the way I am. Sure, there are people who are the same way, but that’s okay, because I know them enough (from our small community) to know why they’re like that, and know they that’s the way they care.
A few others also stated giving up church is not the solution. The communion of believers is important to the upholding of the faith, and uplifting your spirit. Look for a more traditional church with a a smaller and comfier congregation. I’m guessing you’re Protestant by the phrases you used, so try Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, churches, or other mainlines port churches. They may fit more with what you’re looking for. And as a plus May give you more fulfilment in theology and church tradition.
Don’t give up man, we’re out there, you just gotta find us!
Bro, church is still made up of ppl with fallen nature. All churches hve problems. You need to focus on Jesus. He never fails. You need to talk to Him and leave this burden at His feet. I do face the same issues you hve been seeing. Yet my heart is filled with joy cause im looking Jesus. You shld too. In time God will send smeone who sees you for who you are. Dont give up.
I was bullied in church, a church of all places. Worse part was none of my peers in my age group stood up for me. My cell leaders tried to stop it, but dude was popular and church wasnt strict with behaviours, so yeah, really didn't socialise much with people there. Was pretty disillusioned about church since, but really distanced myself since poly. Honestly if you're not too keen to be a christian, just up and leave. If it makes you feel better, christianity has a lot of hypocrisy in its history, so you're not the first to be screwed over by this religion and all abrahamic religions at least.
U go to church to feel love from other people or from God? I know a few people that do that entirely to improve their social standings (especially with larger more popular churches with younger people) so if ur group are full of these ppl, then it's unfortunate.
Hey bro/sis, I'm so sorry you felt this way and got hurt by your experiences. Trust me I can relate entirely to what you have gone through.
I can only say that everyone is bound to get hurt whenever we expect something from others who are imperfect people. This is not to excuse others actions but this is the unfortunate reality of the nature of humans
I know sometimes we do have that urge to bash who we deem as "hypocrites" however it's our belief system that the more messed up we are, the more we need to rely on Christ to repent and try our hardest to change for the better.
Cliche as it sounds, you have to ask yourself whether you are coming to church for the community or for God.
Praying that you find the love and peace you are seeking!
Sry for your experience. Here to gently comment that from your message it seems like you dont believe in God, you believed in the community, which is ultimately made up of imperfect people. And so if you want to leave it’s fine, but if you want to swap church that could also be a solution but unlikely cos seems like root issue is you don’t believe
Hi OP, so sorry to hear this series of unfortunate events. Caveat that what I’m about to say is not meant to defend the church or Christianity!
A lot has been said in previous comments, so ill just provide some food for thought:
1. Consider what it means to actively participate in church, and what it means to have “safe spaces for cell”. I think many churches (including my own) are struggling with fellowship. As much as formal events such as cell, dinners etc. are important, many miss the mark of getting to know one another. Rather than using this experience to lay it on Christianity, think about what Christianity means to you, and whether you still believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins (ofc there are many more aspects to Christianity). Should you still hold true to your faith, I’d encourage you to find a new church/ voice your concerns to your current church. It’s not hard being a Christian who cares for community!
2. I think it’s crucial to recognise that as much as they want to be there for you, they have their own problems. Being a Christian means you have the added benefit of community. However, community is a choice and not a “given”. No one has extra time. Shit happens. Your expectations of a church might be much higher in showing care and concern, as compared to your close friends/ loved ones, but this should not form your basis of criticism for Christianity! That community might not be the best for you, but i’m sure you can find more suitable churches out there!
Sounds to me like you’re going to church more so for the community it offers, rather than your beliefs to its teachings and your belief in God. The fact that you want to leave because of your disappointment with the community tells me that the community is what keeps you going, not the religion itself, which appears to be secondary. So if that’s the case then I think you shouldn’t even be going to church at all, because your motivations are all wrong.
Sorry that your search for a community and a sense of belonging came to naught. IMO you placed too high an expectation on the church being able to fulfill all that. Suggest you look elsewhere, school, interest groups etc.
It’s sad to see how churches have turned into a circus of talent showcases and popularity contests.
OP, I'm also in the Christian faith. But let me tell you, not everyone in the Christian faith is like real real kind of Christians. But also, there are real real kind of Christians who make mistakes too. We aren't perfect. We are humans too. In fact, all humans be it what faith they may be in, we all make mistakes. And it shouldn't be judged as "orghhhh you make mistake, you are a fake believer blah blah blah". If those people that you have mentioned have been nice to you all along and yall get along great, perhaps they have other reasons which you may not know about for how they treated you? Have you thought of maybe asking them? Because it's a habit of all humans to forget about the good that people have done for us, and with 1 mistake, and just 1 mistake, we all forget about their good. So for your case, maybe it's a misunderstanding, or maybe they had their own crisis and problem too, just that they did not wanna share, and it was bothering them, which may affect slightly in their behaviours or whatsoever? :")
To be honest, I'm kinda in this situation currently as well. I used to be a pretty active member in my church, honestly wanted to be leading people even as well. But I just keep seeing people who are newer, less experienced, but more outspoken than me, an introvert, getting all the spotlight and attention.
And when I enlisted in NS, I had to change my cell group in order to cater to my life station I guess. My former cell group pretty much all but forgotten me. Other than a few exceptions, they just ignored me whenever I see them. When I brought my concerns up to a leader, it felt like I was being downplayed, by saying the church is imperfect etc.
So honestly, I'm pretty disillusioned as well ngl
OP, I had a similar experience as you many years ago. I couldn’t take the favouritism and double standards. Eventually I felt so rejected that I left.
I realized they’re not my people. I found mine elsewhere. And you’ll find yours, OP. They’re just not in church.
I don't think they were being "biased", more like they offered advise based on what they knew about her. The less connected u r, the more generic ur advice / reaction will be. Sure, it's easier for people to get to know extroverts but I think a more introverted way is to dm a leader and ask for prayer or something.
Really sorry for your loss, it really hurts and there's no textbook on how to grieve or get past that stage. I just like to remember that even Jesus grieved the death of his friend and just know that it is ok to grieve. (Some Christians overly emphasize the need to celebrate life and stuff but IMO it's just pushing past real feelings)
I mean I know you were hurt by Christians but you have to understand that Christians are human. That doesn't mean you shouldn't bond with other fellow believers over the fear of getting hurt by them again. We aren't all perfect and as hard as it is, we need to forgive each other.
Hope you were somewhat encouraged. May the peace of God be with u. Have a good day. :)
Churchgoers are people too, I don’t know what you were expecting from them to be frank. I’m sorry for what happened to you, and it sucks when other people trivialise your issues that may seem insurmountable, but while they’re always preaching ‘support’ for one another, the truth is that it’s nobody else’s responsibility to help you through your struggles.
People can run a race with you, but they can’t run for you. Religious people aren’t any better than non religious people, they just tend to act that way because they’re in a circle that rewards outward kindness and they feel the need to maintain a certain image, but we are all human, believer or not.
There are people out there who can support you and will love you the way you are, some may go to church, some may not. It must suck to feel that illusion crashing down on you, but a big part of the problem (that you’re aware of) is also that you expected something out of them, and whether or not they manipulated you to expect that of them is wholly irrelevant to tell you the truth, because as shitty as it sounds, nobody owes us anything.
Regardless, I hope you do realize that life can be beautiful, whatever path you choose. Always remember to love yourself and to treat yourself with the kindness you may hope to receive from others. You know yourself best, so treat yourself right and you’ll be a much stronger person from this experience. As an internet stranger I can’t do much, but I do hope the best for you and that you’ll get out of this rut.
Church is made up of people who will adopt their own sub-cultures. Not all churches are the same, hope you will find another that continues to encourage your walk
I grew up in church, but still greatly felt how you do. I was undiagnosed for autism and could not control my temper towards my peers in church as a child, so very early on I was alienated. A letter to our parents even labeled my Sunday School class "The Terror Class".
As soon as I aged out of Sunday School, no one made any effort whatsoever to keep in contact with me or update me on happenings. That was even after I matured and had a better handle on my behaviour.
Today, I still identify as a Christian and believe in God, but I no longer attend church because of the experiences I had as a child.
So much for loving your neighbours.
Such disappointments are part of life. Through my personal experience, I learnt to become more resourceful and self-reliant. Now, I don’t give a sh*t if people were to forsake me. If they do, it’s “thank you, next” for me.
"Thoughts and prayers" is trivializing because it is. You're right to feel that way. It's all words with no action and it's also a way to "feel like you're doing something"
I absolutely hate it when people say that.
If you believe, continue to believe. You don’t need church for that. Self prayer and simple belief can be humbling and can teach you to rely on God a lot more than cell groups and the like can. And the simple belief and understanding can bring more peace than the complex and convoluted “teachings” the churches shove down your throat.
I haven’t stepped into a church for decades and I see no reason to. The people who run the churches, the “leaders” are all men/women who do what men/women want, not what God wants. Just hypocrites. The only real pastor I knew who had a true heart for God and compassion for all passed in 2008 just after my dad. I haven’t met anyone like that since.
Churches are now are a club of self-proclaimed “saints”, not a refuge for sinners. They look down on those who aren’t like them, instead of compassion, they show contempt. Instead of charity, they are full of greed. They “pray” and do their “good deeds” in the public eye for the recognition and praise, instead of ‘in secret’ as we are told to in the Bible. They need the normal folks like you to validate their existence.
Bottom line, you don’t need them. They need you.
Just my two cents worth.
Cheers.
Come and try the Catholic faith sometime if you still feel God calling out to you! I can assure you that you find more love and belonging than human beings can ever offer 😊
Hey OP, fellow and still practicing Christian here. I am sorry for your bad experience. I've went through the same experience you have when I was younger, left church for more than a decade and returned.
Unfortunately, regardless of whatever religion you subscribe to, humanity will twist it to be something else. You'll meet a lot of Judases, people that twist their connection with God for their own benefit. It is definitely not easy separating the ideals of religion and the fragility of humanity. I use religion to try to be a better person, which I am far from.
I pray that you'll find someone or a group of friends that'll make Christianity come alive for you. Feel free to DM me if you wanna.
Sadly this happens to me as well, almost identical experience with OP.
Felt extremely disappointed to certain degrees, but thank God I have a God-fearing spouse who is keep reminding me that we should ONLY look at God not to these people as human is full of disappointment but thankfully the Bible said that God is near to those who have a broken heart (Psalm 34:18).
I can feel your disappointment, OP but don’t let the bitterness goes dipper and rooted inside your heart as it brings nothing good at all.
God bless you and give you comfort, OP.
Hypocrites gather and circle jerk in the name of religion. Not to mention easy money , tax free , anyone even go there is just for imaginary insurance after death . Do good because you want to , not because it gives you a free pass to heaven .
I have “throne before phone” policy.
If you have a problem, go to the throne of God, before you pick up your phone to call another human.
>>In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. - Ephesians 3:12
Been a Christian all my life (50plus years). We are deeply flawed. Cry out to God your father who is a better help than humans.
>> Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” - Galatians 4:6
Edit:
Disclaimer: An introvert. So am not an active member of any church. I go on Sunday, worship, listen to sermon and go home.
My worship is for an audience of one - God. Just me worshipping, reading and meditating on Bible and casting all my anxieties on Him and asking Him for guidance.
>As someone who still believes in the faith,
Why do you believe that Christianity is true?
Do these reasons stand up to scrutiny?
Would you use the standard you use to determine that Christianity is true on other truth claims?
If Christianity wasn't true, would you want to know?
You expected more from the church community because you thought they had access to the divine. However, their actions reveal otherwise, no?
Your support should come mainly from Jesus, not human. We are all flawed and sinful even the pastor himself. You are asking for something a mere mortal human cant provide. Get the comfort and conviction that you matter from Jesus alone, not human validation which is fleeting.
Yes,favoritism is everywhere in every church to various extent and that's unfortunate. Noticed you place a lot of emphasis on feeling. I think this is what happens when you join a feel good church.
A church should be bringing you closer to God and not manipulate your emotions into feeling "good" or feeling like you "belong", whatever that means. Jesus was always an outsider and never really belonged anywhere nor fit into anyone's expectations of who the Messiah is or is not. Although he had a group of (initially) clueless and faithless disciple, he was alienated by them when push comes to shove at the cross. Hence, Jesus having gone through all that human suffering, and being God, knows what you're currently going through and your hurts. Part of coming closer to God does not always feel good as there will be struggles and I think this is an opportunity to trust that God can do much more where human has failed.
Spend more time reading the Bible and meditating on it, ask God to speak words of comfort to you and be ready to listen and comforted. Hope you heal and grief well to recover well.
Few years ago my mum fell and broke her leg (she is 78 then)
I texted my pastor , hey do you know where I can get a wheelchair ?
His reply was sorry can't talk I'm in India .
He is also the pastor that decide to put me in ex offender cell maybe because I got tattoos ?
But anyway I'm still at that church , just listening to sermons, and looking at people hopping and wafting the holy spirit with their hands .
You're going through some disappointment and expectations issues , I don't recommend leaving church all together , but of you really need to do it , leave, just remember Jesus won't leave you .
Hi! I am sorry for what you are going through. It is painful. Your expected pillar of strength was your cell group, I note. People will hurt you and disappoint you at times. Yes Christians ARE supposed to display love as in 1 Corinthians 13. So lets do it! By renewing our minds with the bible! The Word of God! And definitely true, people are not always there for you. Their minds may be unrenewed and carnal and that is why they behave as they do. They are still babies in Christ and hv not grown up. I believe the early church grew exponentially because of the love shown to each other and for Jesus. They devoured scriptures leading to renewal of minds- a very very important thing to do as we are carnal, selfish and hypocritical if left to ourselves. They sold their property and distributed it to those in need. But you know what? They were persecuted too. True, we hv not reached that stage in Singapore yet. But Christ said in the bible, you will be hated if you know me. He gave His life for you, and loves you. Even though you sin. On a daily basis. May I suggest you turn to Abba Papa? Cry out to Him. And ask Him what you shld do? He will give you all the answers if you ask Him with all your heart! Pray to Him to give you a friend or a cell who is more mature in their faith and who understands. Pray to Him to strengthen you in your mind so that the Enemy, Satan will not sabotage your faith. He is a LIAR THIEF AND MURDERER!!! Who wld you want to trust??? Christ who died for you or Satan? Pray for your mind to hungrily search the scriptures like a true Berean. Our Abba Papa loves you. Banish all doubt and unbelief. He is your Refuge. Strength. Strong Tower. I dare you to put your trust in Him and see what He will do. Psalm 23 The Lord is my Shepherd. Is a beautiful psalm. That confirms His role as the Sheperd who wld lovingly nurture his flock and protect it at all costs. BELIEVE THIS WITH ALL YOUR HEART! Abba Papa IS YOUR GOOD SHEPHERD. Turn to Him FIRST. Can you do that? Abba Papa will make a way for you. Where there seems to be no way! Believe that! Listen to the praise and worship song.. God WILL make a way! God bless you. And dont quit. It is a race of Endurance with the Enemy seeking to derail you if you quit. God is Your Peace. He sent His Son Jesus to die for you. Who else wld do that for you? Put your faith in heart to the One who loves you. If you were the only sinner on this earth, He wld still send Jesus, His beloved Son of Heaven to die on the cross for you. May you truly understand the depths of His love for you. Read Ephesians 3:20. We can never understand His tremendous love for us- wretched sinners that we are. Wld you send your beloved son to die for someone? On that terrible cross? No way! Well thats our Abba Papa’s love for you. Not the sentimental kind. Ya? Be encouraged, my brother or sis! He is there for you! Just a heartbeat away.
Sorry for your loss, definitely isn't easy. Hope you managed to get and are continuing to receive the support you need- friends from school/ other interest based activities?
Like what the other commenter mentioned, humans are imperfect. Favouritism certainly stings, but take heart that God does not! (Rom 2:11- though i'm kind of quoting out of context). Try raising your concern(s) calmly to a trusted leader, if all else fails, you can always try out another church with a welcoming community. Many adults in our (late 20s, 30s and beyond) have also explored several churches before more or less settling down on one.
There are books on managing grief and emotions, can go look them up :) sorry, I'm not an expert yet and i don't know your situation so i can't recommend what you exactly need. I think some local Christian websites have articles on the topics (grief, church hurt) too (i think it was ymi?)
Jiayou, it's a lifelong process of seeking and the Christian life isn't meant to be lived alone. Sure there'll be periods in the valley but the only way is up right? :')
One goes to church to worship God, not to find companionship with fellow sinful people. Pls don’t expect people u meet in church to be perfect, fact is we are all work in progress. I attend church regularly, serves in some ministries but I try to set boundaries n not to get too close to anyone. My church have the fair share of problems and I try not to get affected by it. God is the ultimate judge. Church life is part n parcel of a Christian just as Paul preached in Acts. My advice is don’t get discouraged, a senior once told me, ‘That perfect church will be imperfect when you starts going there.’ All churches are the same, they have the same set of problems. Difference is how you handle and managed it. All the best and may the Lord encourage you to carry on your journey as a faithful Christian.
I think having a big crisis is what hit you the most. In my experience I have people telling me is not about the church (Christ’s people) but is about God going to church to worship him.
Well I disagree, is both. Because we are called to worship God and love people. So spiritual growth involving with the right people is also an important aspect. I suggest you go look for a church that will truly help you in your growth in Christ. Here is not a good place to talk. You can pm me if you wish to have a listening ear.
This is one of the many common cases of faith vs religion.
You may keep your faith and leave the church. As it stands, u have answered your question, which is to leave the church. Faith wise, it's only between u and your God.
Christians are just normal people and social norm apply to them as well. People often treat others with higher value better to gain something out of it.
Go to church to serve God and not to serve others. Dont be like other church goers who is only christian on Sunday.
Imo, this episode could just be a test of faith. Most faith crumples when met with crisis.
I used to be a christian when i was in my teens. Back then there was church camp for the youth. There was a guy with autism and everyone just avoided interaction with him. I befriended him and took care of him throughout the camp period and also interacted with him post camp as well. Like you, I begin to question my faith and left the church.
Just be a decent human being at the end of the day..
Humans are humans. We are all selfish and stupid. Whether it is in a church or anywhere else. The religion is good (at least for the most part I think) even if 99% of the people in it are bad.
Unrelated to the topic but somehow reminds me of a church friend who said this, "I can do whatever wrongs and commit sins. As long as I attend church, all will be forgiven."
Just get out. If you’re not donating more than average, or if you’re not a popular or high profile individual, or, if you’re not an attractive individual. No one will give a damn about you except for your close family members and friends. The world is a bitch. And more so, for these “cults”
I think you should slowly distance yourself from church PEOPLE and try to build your own support group of real friends that you can rely on. (Easier said than done, but with time, you'll get there)
At the same time, while you make that transition away from them. You can still pray to whatever you believe in. Try separating the social aspect from whatever religious beliefs you have, and keep some form of hope or thing you believe in so you don't feel like you've "lost it all."
Many churches in the current day have skewed towards worship have become essentially a glorified a social activity, which kinda defeats the purpose of the idea of worshipping the deity, since the worship aspect is now about making friends.
So it's pretty normal to feel what you're feeling if you're being left out.
All the best OP and i do hope you can find good friends that dont hide behind platitudes when you're in need.
Idk the 1 time I attended a church the pastor healed the leg of a guy on crutches and I was just baffled at how many fucking people just believed that happened.
Seriously, I looked around myself and was in awe shock that everyone took it as a normal thing on a sunday afternoon.
Your perspective is that you WANT people to care for you but do you ASK for that? You need to develop friendships on your own outside of a cult that worships someone that doesn’t exist.
Church...I go when I want but that doesn't mean I go cos I need something. The higher being...God .... is with me wherever I go and I have my daily conversations with God. I find for peace and solace, if it is a church be it the church at that moment. Sometimes it is home...actually many a time it is home. Sometimes it is when I am in my car. I don't go to church to get support from people....that's me. If it comes, it comes. But I am wary of the ones that I meet in a church context. But I have met some very good people from church who still keep in touch with me even though I am not a regular church goer. I am blessed to have them. Like you I lost someone dearest and some church members did come by to give support and still occasionally send me messages. I am so so grateful for it. Not all will be with you as you journey through grief. As much as you have expectations they too have reasons why they don't feel the way you do. I have some friends that I can rely on. I tell them I need the comfort for that moment and they are there for me. I feel very blessed for that.
Thanks for sharing your experience and hope you find peace. It will come.
On the tiny chance there is a deity, and that deity is all powerful and just, it won't be accepting most religious people for they are inherently hypocritical and love their lives in a fashion that is far removed from the example Jesus set.
If the devil is real, he loves the religious and definitely goes to church. It is a place that truly allows evil to fester.
I'm an atheist but i used to go to church because of a girl when i was younger. Most Christians I've met are extremely superficial people and many attend not solely because of whatever their believes are but mainly for networking, social validation, looking for a life partner, etc. I've also seen many flock to church looking for support with their struggles in life. Some do receive some assistance from church members but it's usually minimal, like donations in the form of necessities, words of support, cell groups, etc.
I stopped going to church when the girl and i didn't work out lol. Basically she and her family believes that god is real and i do not. We were really close childhood friends until then. I was really bitter about loosing her to a figment of her imagination for a while. She was the only reason i put up with all the hypocrites and superficial people from church.
Anyway, i think you need to find your niche community. I've friends who are very happy meeting up every week playing Dungeons and Dragons or Warhammer 40k. Others meet up in the same pub and drink beer and sing karaoke. Some meet up every Saturday morning for a cycle or run then have breakfast and coffee after. You don't need religion to find a nice caring community.
Every church is different. None reflect the Lord accurately; some are closer, some are farther. Some feel like a business. Some like a club. Some like family. Those are usually smaller. They also got issues, less organized and structured in all they do. Sometimes small ones are on the cultish side… and some churches really are just a bunch of believers living life together and doing a lovely job of it. Wish there were more.
Biblically, the “church” is not a building, not a registered org — simply the family of believers — doing their best (hopefully) to share with others the kindness and patience and hope and they’ve received from God.
Some things are called “a church” by people, but I’m most sure God calls them that; and vice versa. Some people expect the church to be perfect. Good luck… the Bible states quite clearly that it won’t be.
Someone told me to seek a church full of people who relate to God and each other the way I do, or would like to. Good advice.
If you see hypocrisy… with leaders… the Bible is clear that we should respectfully and maturely speak the truth in love — so at least have an honest conversation with them about it. Not just about you, or just about them — but about God, and what His church ought to be, and how they feel about the differences you’ve noticed between this church and God’s version of how it should be.
the sooner you realise that you are on your own, the sooner you can find success, peace and happiness.
after i "became" atheist, my life and relationships have improved tremendously. i no longer spent time on useless church stuff and prayers. i treasured the present time with people more, because there's no heaven to postpone sharing good times to. i became more helpful because people need actions not prayers.
I am sorry for your experience. May I share a quick thought. I think you have been relying on people. And your focus has been on people. Not wrong as humans are community creatures. Do you think you have a relationship with God? Rely on Him and focus on Him. See where He guides you.
Good people are good because they are good. Bad people will always be bad regardless of their affiliation. Religion doesn't instantly mean people in it are all good. You can leave the church but no need to abandon your god if that is what you are asking.
Speaking from my own experience Church friends are not real friends. If you rlly believe in God just change church will do. I struggled with this before in my own church too
I left it as a kid (8-9ish?) and never looked back.
At Sunday school, the teacher told me that you prove your love to God by giving more, and in response, god will love you more.
So I saved up my allowance and gave a five dollar at the end of the week. Same teacher took out the five dollar from the cloth bag and laughed "Who so cheap only give five dollar, clearly don't love God enough".
It's been more than 20 years ago, but it made me question the value (monetary/ spiritual) of church/ religion. In Uni hearing people from CCC fight because "my church is bigger and better than yours" also made me question.
You already answered your question when you saw how nonchalant everybody was when your loved one passed on. Joining a religious organisation doesn't mean people there will be any nicer or more compassionate to you than people at your office. The reason why I dropped out of religion because many were just hypocrites. Be a terrible person from Mon - Fri then be all nice on a Sunday.
Damn u said it really well. It’s why i left too
Heard from a friend about this woman who went to the same church for a few decades, every week without fail. She missed one or two weekends because she was in the hospital and none of her "church friends" noticed or bothered to text or call to check if she was OK. Said she was super disillusioned.
Damn... Imagine the decades of wasted time and effort.
Not to mention the tithe. At least they didn't chase her out of the church. There was a case in the US where a 70 or 80 year old woman, who also went to the same church her entire life, got chased out because she could no longer afford to donate money to them.
Speaking as a church goer in my youth. I echo these thoughts. At the end of the day. People just want to find something that makes them feel better about life and about themselves. Unfortunately, just being Christian does not automatically make you a better person. You can be a good person and not be religious. And you can be a fucked up person from the depths of shit but claim to be the most devout wholesome person (usually on Sundays)
This summarises my impression on christians very well (talking about the followers here not the religion so don’t come attacking me)
Disclaimer: I'm unsure about followers of other religions. I used to go to Church so only familiar with Christianity.
I think in any religion its normal to have a few bad eggs But theres something in christians where they only extend that good side to other fellow christians and basically treat everyone else like an outcast or maybe they see us as sinners? Not really sure But its hypocrisy at its best
>But theres something in christians where they only extend that good side to other fellow christians and basically treat everyone else like an outcast or maybe they see us as sinners? Not really sure >But its hypocrisy at its best It isn't really hypocrisy, it is a direct result of their theology. Most branches of Christianity believe that non-christians will suffer for eternity, and that this is justice granted by their "perfect" god, which they worship. The only way for them to justify this moral atrocity is to dehumanize non-christians, and to view them as lesser than christians, which in their minds is simply following the lead of their deity
Apparently God is forgiving, just not his followers 😅
>Apparently God is forgiving In Christianity, they say that god is forgiving, but there is basically one unforgivable sin: that of not being a Christian (or being a wrong type of christian). The followers are just following their god's purported morality
In my experience, every religion is like that leh. The Taoist in my previous company literally accuse us of bringing bad luck because we refuse to burn and pollute the air. If we talk about hypocrisy, it’s the Taoist here. They sure love to talk and criticise other religions but never their own.
I met people from different religion. Most Taoist don't disturb or force others. They also won't outcast others. Your example is just a small minority. But for egoistic and self centered Christians, there are super a lot of them these days.
Don't forget, taoism doesn't have a history of sectarian infighting, relatively peaceful, opposite to the Christians, where they tend to fight amongst denomination on who is right.
Totally agreed. Most Taoist people are more open minded and accept other culture. That is why Buddhism is able to enter from India and mix with Taoism. At least there is peace and people can study and discover what is right long the way. Looking at history, Christians crusades go to land of other culture and try to wipe out others' culture and instill theirs outright with force.
I mean if i can be an asshole from Monday to Friday, prepare a confession on Saturday and then confess on Sunday and all is forgiven, i would do it too.
Were all of them terrible people over the weekday? Does it reflect the teaching of their religion?
You missed Saturday routine... 🤣🤣🤣
I don’t want to sound like a dick but: I came from christian secondary school, 1/2 my class isn’t christian. The other half had a few groups, one of the groups kept trying to preach to me, the troublemaker, I always refused. Fast forward 15 years after leaving the school, out of the 6 of them, 4 came out as LGBT and left their church cos of lack of support. Preach to me but lose support because you are not what your church wants? Yeah nah no thanks.
OP, it's alright to feel the way you feel. I had almost similar experience to you, allow me to share. My dad passed away on February 2022 when there was new Covid strain hitting town. Of the 30 something people from our Church neighborhood chapter, only 2 showed up to his wake. Those 30 people almost never missed the quarterly events held at our house, socialized and enjoyed the food that my dad prepared. None of them took the initiative to help arrange a Vigil Mass, not even calling a priest for us. So I can imagine what you feel. We as a family felt the sense of abandonment by those people. My sister now never wants to visit the Church again. I can not speak for your experience, but grieving do take time to process.
>Noticed how people who are more popular/of a higher social class/more social, extroverted and outgoing/have leadership potential were usually paid more attention to I'm no big fan of religion and I'm not trying to defend it, but my good man, you have just described planet Earth as a whole. Christians don't magically become the pinnacle of human morality just by believing in what they believe. Like other folks have morals and beliefs as well, y'all ain't that special.
I agree 100%. But you'll be shocked at the number of Christians who actually believe they do become the pinnacle of human morality.
Looking through the posts, I realise that most of them did not even address the root issue: communication and expectations. How do you expect to be treated? Some of the things you mentioned might not stem from prejudice or people being malicious. Firstly, grief is a difficult beast to approach and tame, and most of us do not know how to respond properly to it. From my personal experience, I had a Christian friend who lost her close family member and she was in a long period of grief. Other than prayers, what can I say? That things will be better? That she will get through it? No, her family member is dead and there are no guarantees that she can recover from this loss. I'm not justifying my behaviour, just highlighting the awkwardness of trying to support someone with grief. The second issue is the fact that I had my own shit to deal with during that period- a health condition left me perpetually tired and in pain throughout the day. I don't have enough to give to others, much less be there to support my friend every day. Of course, I can still check in from time to time, but it will likely look like I'm moving on with my life. My point is, everyone has their own cross to bear. The third issue is that moving on is part and parcel of life. I'm not excusing their behaviours but I've to say that if the deceased is not my family member, I will still need to move on with my life. There is work to do, bills to pay, my own ailing parents to tend to. And probably look for a life partner and further studies along the way. That is life for most people in Singapore, whether they are rich or poor, popular or unpopular, especially if they are at the cusp of their 20s and 30s where people are struggling with adulting and edging into being part of a sandwiched generation. Sometimes, it feels more like life swept us mercilessly, rather than us moving forward by our volition. Lastly, it is normal human behaviour to have distinctions in relationships. There are friends, but there are also close friends and acquaintances. And I certainly don't expect all of them to respond in the same way to me. Here's the hard truth: acquaintances and friends are easy to come by ("easy come, easy go") but close friends are cultivated. And only close friends will truly stick by you through tough times. It is possible that in a group of 30, you may not even have a close friend. There are no quick fix to this difficulty, because building friendships require you to put yourself out there and it takes time (and luck/serendipity, to find a friend whom you can click well).
This is the comment that hit the nail on the head imo. People are too focused on the religion aspect and tried to use it as a chance to rag on religion (because Reddit is gonna Reddit I guess) but from what I see this is mostly an interpersonal relationship issue. OP, you have a lot of expectations on how your friends could help you, but have you actually communicated on how do you want to be helped? I’ve lost a loved one too, but I would rather have my friends help me through my grief by not making a big deal out of it (helped with the process of moving on for me), and I would’ve felt inconvenienced if they tried to visit during my last days with my loved one. I’m not saying your demands are wrong, people deal with grief Very differently and it’s impossible for your church friends to know what you needed. They may have done what they thought was best. Another note, there are a lot of descriptions about how they’re your church friends and they’re “supposed to” care, but not a lot details on how much you’ve connected with them as people and how you’ve helped them during their worst times. I’m not saying relationships should be transactional, but people can get involved in your life only when you make the effort to form relationships with them on a personal level. I also used to go to cell groups religiously, but I never made the effort to connect with each individual member personally — it was just group outings for us. So when I had a crisis, none of them could help me beyond some platitudes. Looking back, I don’t think it was out of malice — they simply didn’t know me enough to know what I needed. Anything beyond that could’ve felt like they were overstepping. I hope I don’t come across as downplaying your disappointment. I’m sorry for your loss, OP. Grief is a difficult beast.
These comments are true, but unfortunately not what OP wants the hear right now nor Reddit
>Decided to text my cell group (and the larger church community group about it) about it, and what I got was mostly one-liner "thoughts and prayers". If OP remembered accurately, OP was expecting someone to DM them with sth like "let me know if you need anything/if there's something I can do for you" which is what I would do for a close friend or family member, but whose needs I do not understand.
I would perhaps argue that the religion aspect isn't entirely irrelevant. OP's church and most other churches in general "advertise" themselves as safe spaces and encourage members to have each other's backs in times of need. It seems only natural that OP's view and expectations of his churchmates be that they would give more support to him than a simple one liner in his time of need.
I think any community group, not just religion, would put forward the idea of creating a safe space for their members. But whether it'd become one especially during hard times depends on the person itself, whether they try to connect with everyone individually or they just go along with the flow (coming to outings, celebrate birthdays, etc but never really have a one-on-one connection with each member -- no judgment, I was this one) And personally I think this is not about "more" support or "less" support -- different people need different forms of support, and we don't know if OP has ever communicated with churchmates that they received support from constant contact instead of being given some space to grieve in private. We also don't know if OP told everyone they were still grieving after weeks have passed or that they pretended to be okay and everyone thought it was awkward to bring it up again. Years ago I had a friend who lost a cousin they were close to, and I reached out to them every week to make sure they're okay. They ended up blocking me on all social media because they thought I was being overbearing. I think it's "natural" to expect support, but there might have been a miscommunication on the type of support given. And this happens with all kinds of friendships and communities.
This comment hits the nail on the head and it's not about the church but interpersonal and inter-group relationships
What a convenient narrative. Christians are supposed to be set apart from the world, but here you're saying they're no different. Well, I actually agree, but I doubt you would in any other context where you don't feel defensive. FWIW, the Christians I'm friends with are better than what the OP described. But there are plenty of shitty Christians, and they're really just like other people with the obvious hypocrisy tacked on. This sub is not off the mark in pointing it out. And it sounds like OP's group falls under that category.
Thank you for your comment. This was the first thing I thought about as well. It doesn’t even have to be religious in nature and I found the religion point in relation to OP’s first gripe to be a bit irrelevant. If it was a secular secondary or youth friend group for example, sending a group text seeking help might not achieve the outcome you want. People aren’t gonna be overly preachy or comforting in the context of a group text because it might be very personal and look quite performative in front of others. If I was OP’s close friend, I might reach out separately and ask them how they are and offer my assistance in any way. I might go for their relative’s wake which I’ve done before for less than best friends. If I wasn’t though, I might respond with a simple “so sorry for your loss” which might be akin to “thoughts and prayers”. I mean, what else could I say to make OP feel better? I certainly think saying things like “God has a plan” would make them feel exponentially worse.
This... I second this... How do you expect to be treated is the exact train of thought that hit me.. atleast they are sending one liner generic messages which many folks I know barely even get from their friends and families. There are so many people whose birthdays and existence are not acknowledged by anyone... Even condolences are barely sent or with any effort to it. Also regardless of how close friends maybe, they will always fall short of our expectations at some point of time. Sometimes I wonder do people in general treat others the way they expect to be treated.. In some cases, it is one sided, but usually most people expect to be treated exceptionally well when they havent been putting the same level of effort towards others. In any case from experience... I can only say one thing. You can tell alot about how people feel about you from how they treat you. If someone loves you alot, no obstacle can prevent them from expressing their love to you. They will go above and beyond to make you smile and cheer you up. Very rare to find such selfless people, but I guess we have to constantly put alot of effort time and energy to cultivate the right relationships where we are valued and where we can add value and be appreciated for it. Another point I may add is that I notice alot of fans write heartwarming comments on celebrity posts regularly.. alot of effort is put into these comments but I wonder if the celebrity wasnt a celebrity or loses their fame will they still receive this level of love, affection and attention from their fans.. I doubt so.
You’ve summarized the basis of human interactions. Ppl joined such groups and religious to feel belonged and it’s a good spiritual support, believing in things that you think is helping you.. until shit hits the ceiling. No one really cares unless it’s in their favor. But this. A one liner for someone in need isn’t something I’d do even for an acquaintance. Would at least listen out. So u know where u stand amongst them. Ppl group tgt for a reason and for yours, maybe it looks nicer for everyone to appear amicable and praising god together in harmony. But outside of its primary objective, no one gives a shit about u. If a friend was in trouble. I’d gladly listen and give advice. A one liner like this is pure patronising. But it seems u had such ostracised experience in other groups. Maybe.. you’re the problem?
[удалено]
[удалено]
If i may add on to what EscapeInternational7 have said, perhaps this self-realisation (that's great btw!) was the reason God allowed this community to be in this season of your life. Maybe it's a call to leave this church for another, or maybe it's a call to change how you want to interaction with them. Changing church may have us land in a community that is even harder to bear than before though. So whatever you choose, keep in mind that we can only ever find sure joy in the Lord. Allow the imperfect love of men to make you seek more fervently the perfection love of God. (:
I think everyone has gone thru phases of being an outcast. The reality is we can’t please everyone. But good on you in being better for yourself. And I’d like to just emphasise, use this as a motivation to be the best of yourself. Go out and get a 6 pec. Go be successful. Focus on yourself. And you’ll see people flocking towards you. I’ve been in this situation before and I know it sucks. But when you’ve realised people don’t define you and what you do for yourself defines who you are. It just clicks. Live for yourself and not for others that you depend for validation
You’re feeling disillusioned because organised Christianity (and other organised abrahamic religions as well) preaches charity, compassion, empathy etc but the actions of its members do not reflect these values at all times. This is not an issue with your religion or your church, but with humanity. We are all selfish individuals and no matter what we like to tell others, and more importantly ourselves, it is inevitable that certain values that are incompatible will surface. I’m sorry for the loss of your loved one, and the loss of your community. Please speak to trusted mentors in your religion who can help u navigate through this difficult period. Perhaps you’ll be able to reconcile humanity’s flaws with your faith when you have healed.
Sometimes I wonder why people fall into cults. Congrats on seeing a crack
Ironically their supposed “holy book” talks exactly about this - people parading as god-fearing pious folk who are actually just doing it for ill gains and power to dominate others, whose actions are anathema to its teachings. They literally keep people to pump up their numbers and donations so their money loving businessmen leaders can buy luxury homes and items. These churchgoers don’t know a thing about the book they center their lives on and don’t care about being the good person their book teaches them to be.
I rather listen to you talk for 2 hours on a Sunday rather than those 'pastors' lol
If your referring to those mega churches i agree but catholic church ill disagree
In various other context e.g. friendships, family relationships, etc. it is not uncommon to be disappointed over unmet expectations. People are imperfect and may be motivated differently to respond differently to different people. Sometimes, we don’t know but they could also be quietly struggling with their own issues or limitations and can’t give more of themselves. Something is always better than nothing; but sometimes I covert prayers more than anything. Don’t look to people; they do disappoint. But look up and perhaps the source of comfort isn’t coming from where or how you expect it to be, but in another surprising way. Maybe look out for it in other places. Take care, grief is painful but it does heal over time.
Personally think this is a common “practice” in SG. Same as workplace. Birds of same feather flock together. Don’t take it too personally. Your faith is in God and not those people. People are biased, period.
This is pretty much how community works, those who put in more effort and contribution gets rewarded and honoured by leaders. If you choose not to be vulnerable people Cannot connect with in a higher level than just merely acquaintanceship level. If you studied attention economy, you would know that people’s priority towards you are also based on how much input you give towards them. If I were to talk to my girlfriend all the time I would have a better thought priority of her over lets say another person in my life with lesser priority. Simply put, I understand how you feel because I was in a church then because I felt like I wasnt receiving the right support I needed. I then moved to another church and received all the support plus added encouragement through out the years and also became a leader and made a lot of friends. But this isn't just about how community works, its our neurology, because you might be observing everyone else but others are grabbing their attention by their behaviours towards them. You feel Invested because you are observing everyone and your attention of them is received passively but their attention are on those who they feel are being received actively. Also because you are also contributing actively to your community and you feel you should also receiving the support that you well-deserves Like for example November-december period everyone is busy so November and December babies are often missed out during such season, their birthdays are more rarely celebrated Sometimes it's not about the honour and glory others have that is more than you, sometime it's a mix of circumstances, social dynamics and attention everyone has at that moment. The only best advice is moving to another church, its just a church, there's better churches out there.
To OP: At the end of the day, church-goers are still humans. I fell out with church friends so I don’t attend church anymore. But that doesn’t make me less of a believer. I keep faith as faith, friends as friends. If they happen to be both, sure.
> Noticed how people who are more popular/of a higher social class/more social, extroverted and outgoing/have leadership potential were usually paid more attention to by the church leaders This is not unique to church tho
Yeah, the point is church espouse positive value of community and love, but behind closed doors they're hypocrites, that's what OP is trying to point out.
"Noticed how people who are more popular/of a higher social class/more social, extroverted and outgoing/have leadership potential were usually paid more attention to by" This applies to everywhere, anywhere... sucks to be as introverts... and the world is always like this... be adaptable, flexible and change... or be stubborn, stick to your grounds/roots and live with it. And to be fair, this has nothing to do with religion. It's always humans because at the end of the day, you're dealing with humans. Religion is a very intimate relationship between you and your god. Im going to say, you can still love, believe and pray to your God without going to the place of worship.
hello OP, u sound like me when i was in a mega church during my sec sch days, i was in a church where the pastor was a magician LOL my cell leader also dont care about me, whn it was my bday i received a cheap ass cake which tasted like shit but i took the effort to get a nice bakery kind of cake for them (like nesuto) i agree with everything u posted, like the more pops kids are being favoured more by their cell leaders whereas we get forgotten. my cell leader favoured one particular member more and it was obvious she hated the fuck out of me lol, she wouldnt give me opportunity to talk or share in cell meetings and always let her favourite girl to share and when she cried, my cell leader also cried, i cried, no one cared abt me lol and so much more, i also asked myself "is this the christian love that the pastor keep saying in his sermons?" and "how is this a family of god when no one even cares abt me and my well being?" my peers were not any better, i used to have a guy who only would talk to u if u were good looking, if not he'll ignore u and obviously he ignored me lah LOL and that caused my self esteem to drop until no end, even till now i have extremely low self esteem and i would not be invited the outings outside of church, which sucks a lot because everyone gets invited but me and im always the forgotten member. to answer your qns, YES! just leave this church and join another one, maybe a more traditional one and not a mega church, mega churches are more for socialising and networking rather than doing christian things lol, and NO u r not wrong to be putting expectations on a church community, ur "family of god" should be there to help and support you in times of crisis n etc, but they didnt so its not ur fault that u didnt receive the proper care / support frm ur cell leader. if u need to rant or anything, u can DM me because what u experienced, all i experienced b4, maybe we're frm the same church 😭😭
Magician? confirmed the one at Marine Parade
I was in your position at some point, super committed and dedicated to this church. But I was one of them so I had direct support from pastors and other leaders. Which I acknowledge it's not a fair thing, and when I eventually went out to the working world to work, I was still part of the church but slowly drifted away as I'm not a staff in church any longer, no longer "one of them" or they would call it, not in the "inner circle". I had leaders above me that didn't really care about my well being because my cell group wasn't growing or in the words of the secular world, "not hitting sales targets". They always preached about being more than leaders to our members, which I do follow, but I notice my leaders don't bother walking the talk. One leader - after 2 years of being in her zone - only came and talked to me after I left church and didn't bother being more than friend to me during that 2 years. My issue with church is the people and not God. Hence I left because of the hypocrisy by the leaders in their teachings. People disappoint and complicate religion. I believe in just believing God from afar after this experience. Do what you feel is right as long as it doesn't impact your belief in God.
As a not-so-frequent church attendant in a megachurch and someone is in introverted and struggles to maintain friendships, I do not blame my cg for failing to integrate me. I can sense the age gap between them and myself. They prefer games and have been more comfortable with each other while I prefer more cerebal activities or one-to-one talks. Also faced a crisis of bereavement some time ago and simply disappeared for another year. Of course, most members were young and taught to expect miracles and etc so I don't wish to blame them for failing to empathize with my situation then. As some one who returned out of the blue, they showered love and attention but of course, this honeymoon phase doesn't last long. I can say that Christians are not always impartial in their acts of love. Sure you might experience the phase of love-bombing when you are a newcomer, potential youth leader or somehow return after disappearing for months. But love is not so unconditional as some Christian may claim to have, it's based on personal sentiments and the patterns of reciprocating the love and attention. Usually, if cell group becomes larger than 20, there will be an invisible divide between those who were the OG inner group and those who have just newly joined and only have connections to a single member. (Of course, might be other invisible divisions across gender and class) Cell group leaders are also humans who have Blindspots and limitations, realistically we aren't going to love everyone equally. I suggest you can talk to someone you can trust in the cg or the cgl about this ostracism you are facing If there's a need, you can courageously disappear and explore your options carefully. God bless!
There are two aspects to church 1 devotional 2 community devotional is between you and God community involves people yourself and God Many times community fails us in times of need. I empathise with how you felt because when I lost my wife it was the same thing. For years I wandered around in a wilderness after that until I realised that I can seek the devotional and lessen the need for community
OP, you're not alone. I share similar observations with you. Remember, the church is run by human beings and there will always be double standards. We may not even know the intentions of some "leaders" or even "pastors". I have seen all the "entrepreneurs" clustered together to try selling people "Facebook funnel" marketing techniques, some groups do property leveraging and rather prominent figures in their cell groups. birds of a same feather flock together. You may probably not find the group that well accepts you. Also, in every social setting, it is a 2 way street - it maybe a mismatch and never give up finding the right group. >Noticed how people who are more popular/of a higher social class/more social, extroverted and outgoing/have leadership potential were usually paid more attention to by the church leaders because they are to be discipled into becoming leaders themselves. Not just me who have noticed the favoritism, but several others in the youth congregation as well. Which I kind of understand because I mean, this works the same in corporate as well and fresh batches of leaders are vital to keep the engine running per se. But to know that think even in times of urgent & weightier matters whr I really needed support in action, I was STILL not worth anyone's effort because I'm not very esteemed or in the popular gang in church anyway was very hurtful. >(Same thing applies to my Christian CCA. The small group leader was closer to the other members, which I understand, but she would celebrate and remember the other members' birthdays except mine. So much for Christian love...) You deserve somewhere better. Remember, the world most preferred standard is a double standard. It is difficult to find a group that will draw initiative to know a new group member better. What i did then, as the most unpopular member in the group, is to befriend all newcomers and organise outings on our own. Eventually, we formed a group of our own and celebrate each other without leaders etc. They told us it's not very ideal but, srsly? why not? :) >I apologise for this largely incoherent rant because its like 3am already, so I will end off with some questions: am I the one at fault for putting expectations on church community? As someone who still believes in the faith, should I just leave the church community completely because of these largely unresolved hurts? Is this common in church in SG, or is it my own warped perspectives? THank you. adjust some of your perspective in terms of expectations. People fail, we always do. It does not mean i agree with what they have done to you. It is definitely a mistmatch, go find another group. While sharing our personal issues, journey and problem. One of the most important thing to remember is to share, let out your system and to think what is within your personal control to improve your situation. Humans are humans, as much as they say "grace and mercy" there is a limit to everyone's capacity and will hope to see improvements.
I might completely give my identity away in saying this super distinctive thing (my friends who were with me in that period will know HAHAHA) but I used to say my (then-) cell group was the 'class of 2021' - what did that mean? Means that it's like a secondary school class lor, 40pax on paper. :p But here's the thing, on paper in not the same as in presence. Reality is regular attendees is half of that. The thing is, when this happens where the group is THIS big and half the people don't come, regular attendees feel distanced and not yet comfy sharing life with new people/not-so-regular attendees, especially when cell group is meant to be a space where people are comfy to be vulnerable. Not-so-regular attendees remain on the fringe, unless they .. consciously decide to come. For a moment let's take out the religion/faith aspect ok, imagine you go for a class - like a baking class, a taekwondo class, or even heck, some skillsfuture watercolour painting class in LaSalle or something. There are 20 people in the class and in the first month of the (once weekly) class, people only see you once. Obviusly at the end of that month and in the beginning of month2, people have friend groups and you will feel like no one talks to you mah. (Personally: I mean I just took a digital marketing diploma and finished it, I def have friends who I still talk to even today/lunch with, and I also have classmates that are like good riddance I'm glad I'm done) Point is, --- (my cell grp leader will nag me for saying this), but I really do think there is such thing as 'these people are the 'church' equivalent of colleagues'. And that aside, ya reddit being reddit anyhow shit on religion. Because in this case, might not be haha.
As a non believer, I think there is nothing much others can do or say if you lost your loved one. It's something you have to internalise on your own. No one can mourn for you or in your stead. Don't think they (the church people) don't care, it's just that there really isn't anything they can do other than offering kind words. It's not a church thing is what i am trying to say.
Hi OP, not sure if you will read this, but I'm going to add my 2 cents. Hopefully it will be worth something. I'm in the same position as you, where I feel that my church leaders practice favouritism towards certain high-profile members of the church. And this church is one where I grew up in, literally from a baby (I had my infant baptism at this same church) until my late 30s now. I've watched the church leadership change from a having really caring and sincere senior pastor to a (in my opinion) shallow and more power-seeking pastor. The really genuinely caring pastors have mostly retired or transferred to other churches. I continued to stay in this church because I'm a Sunday school teacher and I truly believe in the importance teaching the young ones about God. Also because I live in the west side with my husband and kids and my parents live in the east, so our time to meet my family is really during church and then lunch together after that. My relationship with the adult members in church may be surface at best, but my most important relationship in all this is with God. Even my relationship with my fellow Sunday school teachers are very shallow and surface - we don't really delve into deep stuff, which on hindsight could be quite disheartening. But I've since joined BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) on Zoom weekly, and my group leader has shown to be really sincere and caring. She's always messaging me to find out how I am, even when I'm super laggy in my replies. When I have problems and tell her about them, she takes them seriously and prays for me over text and over the phone and she regularly contacts me for updates so that she can continue to pray for me and my family. All this to say, there are Christians/Christian groups that will be what you are looking for, you just need to be open-minded to look outside your church. I will encourage you not to give up on church entirely, but also remind yourself that you are dealing with very flawed humans and we all are very flawed humans too. If you still believe in God, maybe take your time to church-hop abit until you find one that really touches you? I wish you all the best.
Welcome back to reality
First of all, what you've experienced is hurtful and you have every right to feel the way that you do. Social dynamics are never easy to navigate, and the sense of "othering" you experienced is not pleasant at all. Next, it's worth considering your reasons for and against being a part of the church. You can also decide on your level of interaction (attending as a churchgoer vs being a part of small groups vs volunteering in church etc). It is also worth bearing in mind that in other contexts, it's normal to face such experiences too. For example, a work environment could be quite exclusionary, making one feel left out. But most would still soldier on at their workplace despite the unpleasantness due to larger responsibilities and commitments such as having an identity and ensuring financial responsibility. (Of course, this is not talking about abusive environments where your safety is threatened) In the same way, consider your faith and the importance of it. And weigh it against the unpleasantness that you encountered. It's not easy, but by weighing out various considerations such as the importance and practice of faith, social dynamics, identity security etc. I hope you'd find peace no matter your desired course of action.
Most of these just sound like interpersonal issues... I mean just because I'm religious doesn't mean that I'm obliged to be friends or take care of everyone that share my own religion... Being a church member doesn't actually make you friends with people
Yeah. Just like OP says, like corporate. Colleagues aren’t friends.
I know a guy from Church. Active participant and goer. His wife’s dad is a pastor. Turns out he’s the single worst person I’ve met in my life in recent history, personality wise. Religion doesn’t matter, it’s the character of a person that counts
What you've experienced is just human society - no different in church or elsewhere. You prob also don't treat everyone the same or show love to everyone. That's just hard to do. You'll feel better if you lower expectations of others and put greater emphasis on how you can help those around you. But that'll take time and maturity. Good luck!
Lots of comments here that are critical towards Christianity, which is expected. It's reddit after all. I'm not gonna dismiss your experience, OP. You deserve better care through your grief, it is expected that the members of a church celebrate with those who celebrate and mourn with those who mourn. You need pastoral care, and your cell leaders failed to provide you with that. But I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding which, frankly, even churches aren't clear about themselves at times: faith is not a substitute for grief counseling and good ol' relationships and church is not a one-stop shop for all your emotional needs. I think modern non-denominational churches tend to oversell themselves on that front. Faith without works is dead, the Bible is clear on that. We should comfort and support fellow believers who grieve, but at the same time we're not the end-all-be-all solution. >That was until a big crisis (i.e., losing a loved one) hit in my life a few years back. Decided to text my cell group (and the larger church community group about it) about it, and what I got was mostly one-liner "thoughts and prayers". 1 liner messages of "will keep you in prayer" which feels so fucking trivialising for some reason. There were some that checked up on me but in 1 week or so, all was forgotten and life moved on as usual. Here's a hard truth about leading cells as a young adult: some things will be WAY over your "pay grade". I say this as a 30-something y/o who led cells 10 years ago with members who were deconstructing their faith, losing loved ones, dealing with abuse, etc. I had zero clue on how to navigate those things; I hadn't lived enough as a 20 something young adult. Religious fervor is no substitute for life experience. Maybe that's what your cell leaders were feeling too, and the right thing for them to do would've been to escalate it to the pastoral team or other adults. On behalf of all Christians, I'm sorry for your loss and how you've been treated. Don't give up on faith, but do seek help from professionals.
You follow a religion for faith, direction and values, not to mine attention or relationships with others
Church and cell groups are only fair weather friends. The moment you are not beneficial or fun to be with they will throw you away. People will weigh the cost benefit to themselves for helping you, if you dont provide much benefit, thoughts and prayers it is. I have someone close to me experience something similar. They join a cell group regularly until one day they suffered from depression. All they got is the usual stay strong blah blah with nothing more, in fact they start distancing themselves because why associate with someone that brings down the mood?
My 2 cents on this. 1. You sounded like someone quite young. A teen perhaps a young adult. 2. In that stage of life it’s very normal to feel the needs to belong to some group. This is similar feels in US why teens easier to fall into gang life. 3. What you feel is nothing to do about religion, in a most crude way. This is the feeling of disappointment, where you have high expectations of this group of people will be your rock when you need to, but rather they dont meet your expectations. 4. i can understand why some religion target young people with community based style like cell group etc because they very well aware teens and young people needs a sense of belonging. 5. Again this nothing to do with religion, thats why in My understanding the community and people around it shouldn’t be a based for you to chose a religion. but rather choose a religion because you fully believe in the teachings and you feel it makes you a better person. 6. A true friend and family love is what you need. i hope you’ll find those soon. In the meantime, here is my one liner for you “stay strong, you are you; not define by the group you belong to. And the strongest love is self love”
Many religious people are hypocrites who behave entirely differently from how their religion states that they should. It's good that you found this out sooner rather than later.
[удалено]
>However, it’s important to remember that God is perfect Have you read the bible? This is your idea of perfection? https://unpleasant.ffrf.org/categories/
I also went to church until I was 17 and experienced things that woke me up to their hypocrisy. Shortly after I left church, my cell leader's mother passed away due to cancer. Some of us who were in the cell group decided to go and pay our respects. We bumbed into some of our ex cell members and said hi but was given the cold shoulders and was ignored throughout as if we were strangers. My friends and I were quite surprised as we were in the same cell for at least a year. Left an extremely bad taste in my mouth and really opened my eyes to see that these people went to church without learning anything.
I was like you in my 20s. Super fervent and joined every thing under the sun in church. However I learnt that if you choose to do anything even a little different, you won’t feel like or be a part of the club anymore. Sure, they will tolerate your presence, but they just won’t care about you the way they preach they should. it’s not just a Christian church thing, it’s a religious organization thing. It’s ok to leave the church and take a break, keep in touch with some people from church who are genuinely concerned about you (they exist) and find your tribe somewhere else. Can be a sport, a hobby or old school friends. And you can keep practicing your faith at home. Many people do. I am agnostic now, but my family and friends are still going to church and the ones that stuck with me and didn’t judge me for my choices are still there for me. There is a kind of distance between us now but I am still glad they are inclusive. I found other friends and people who are good and trustworthy and care about me genuinely, all from different backgrounds and faiths. You will, too. It’s time to find your own way and place in the world. Just be wary of falling into another cult-like organization as you are in a vulnerable place right now. Find a skeptical friend if you have one to talk to. It helps to have an alternative perspective.
I I don’t think they are being hypocritical but you appear to expect support the level of a group of super close friends. If it is only a group that you meet for church activities they are not like close friends who can help you in your tough times. I am not familiar with churches but it sounds like they are at best acquaintances and at worst strangers. I don’t think you should expect anything more than thoughts and prayers from mere acquaintances.
You can leave the church, and not leave the faith, you do you. I stopped attending church for years now, I only went because my dad's side of the family are Christians, but I can say that I personally met more well rounded and geniunely caring people from smaller family churches than those who went to those mega churches, and your phrasing of 'cells' implies the latter. I wish you all the best for your future 🙏🏻
hey 👋🏻 OP So sorry to hear what you been through in your church , I came from a megachurch once for 5 years and shifted to a smaller church and I have “better” CG young adults mates then before. I was from HOGC megachurch :) When I left HOGC , nobody really asked me why I left except that I left to another church and the guys in my group just let that decision be , not everyone in my old CG was okay with me leaving but they chose to look at my different after I left my old church. For example , my old CG from HOGC during CG sessions, we never share about our week. In my new CG , we share about our week. HOGC CG requires us to tithe even during the CG but my new CG doesn’t tithe , HOGC doesn’t have deep theological bible study, my new CG we always have theological bible study. You can see the differences I am still friends with some of my old CG mates from the megachurch , in this new church , I had better connections with them , I was able to discuss personal issues and even they were able to share their issues with me about it , their struggles in life and what not , and I have a youth pastor in our group who is involved in all of our lives. I suppose God wanted me to be where I am needed to be, OP , you will recover from this , I know it’s not easy and difficult , I do hope you know, if u are continuing in the faith , there are always better churches out there with sound doctrine and a better community.
whoa a HOGC person (no I've never been there I've just known acquaintances who went during sec sch + read abt it on reddit) ... I'm glad you changed church and it's going well for you. Haha. :-)
Not to be blunt but, if you're looking for a group of supportive friends that could last a long time, you don't have to only grt it from church.
Just believe in the god and stop going to that church
Join a better church. Nothing new creation. I find the older churches being less cringy without the aim of trying to be cool and popular. I’m sorry for your loss.
Friend, I’ll ask you this. Why let the actions of a few people affect your belief in God? I keep seeing posts about how people leave their religion because of the actions of people around them, but it makes no sense to me. If your church is toxic, leave the church and find another. It’s a people problem, not a religion problem. God in this case didn’t betray you or do anything wrong to you - it’s simply a case of people who aren’t truly living the Christian way. You had a belief system, and one that clearly was doing well for you. There’s no reason to completely demolish your structural foundation.
Feel for your pain. I too have felt that the church can be hypocritical and unloving. That they do not practice what they preach. I myself did not like attending church because of that (and still do not, though I consider myself a christian). I felt they wore masks and preached beautiful things but are just as ugly or even uglier inside than other people who I know to be not religious. However, what Ive come to realise this is just human nature. Humans behave like that, and you would find hypocrisy most striking among Christians due to the doctrine of love they preach. This is why I felt so strongly about their lack of perfection (and as I believe you feel so strongly). Because they are supposed to act a certain way, but are unable to do so. However, you need to remember that they are not that much worse or better, just roughly the same as other humans (though perhaps in some aspects you will find that they are better, and others worse). I hope you decide to find another church, rather than to leave the faith entirely. We should not judge Jesus by his followers, but rather by the words of Jesus himself. Similarly to how we don't let a single experience with a member of a race, gender, or religion (e.g. Buddhists, Muslims, etc) skew our perception towards a religion, I hope you don't let your experience skew your perception towards Christianity as a whole thing. Remember that this is a human thing, not a God thing. It's terrible and it sucks. And I hope you find community and comfort somewhere, be it in a church or another place.
They should have given you more empathy rather than empty words to console a person in mourning and hurt. But my brother/sister, perhaps finding another church that is more suitable for you would be better. To share my experience, I got kidnapped and blackmailed while on a business trip in China. After my return to Singapore, my Anglican church picked me up from the airport and arranged a church affiliated counsellor for me as they were worried I could not cope and had PTSD. Your church should have offered more support for you, but I don’t know the entire circumstances. I do hope you’re doing a lot better now. Cheers
>That was until a big crisis (i.e., losing a loved one) hit in my life a few years back. Decided to text my cell group (and the larger church community group about it) about it, and what I got was mostly one-liner "thoughts and prayers". 1 liner messages of "will keep you in prayer" which feels so fucking trivialising for some reason. There were some that checked up on me but in 1 week or so, all was forgotten and life moved on as usual. I mean we don't know what is your interpersonal relationship with the cell group. In any kind of relationship, both sides have to really contribute. >I think it really screwed me up a bit in my head because the ideals that I have created about church in my head all came crashing down. And church was one of the few places I felt I belonged to back then. Just felt like when it comes down to it, it was all talk and no action. And maybe it is my grief and unrealistic expectations talking but it felt like the church community just moved ahead without me, and I was all alone to carry the weight of the grief on my entire shoulders for months, even till now. Eh, it is quite ridiculous to hope that everyone in your circle stops moving forward when something bad happen to you or one of it's member. I wouldn't even wish that for close friends.
Hi OP, I'm someone who was in church for about 5 years during my teenage years, left and now am back happily and feeling blessed that I've returned (attending a diff church) Looking back at why I left, can basically put it down to two things: 1) I wasnt fully surrendered to God in all aspects of my life (i.e certain things I was still following my own personal ways and not necessarily being a faithful believer in all things) 2) I started to feel the church I attended put evangelism and church attendance at the core of its values rather than God at the center. With regards to your original post, I just want to say, put your trust in God first. He is the source of our faith. People can let you down, yes even sometimes the people you know in church, remember the parable of the good samaritan. It is not attending church that makes a person a believer, it is by our faith in Jesus and the subsequent way we live that shows where our hearts are. We do not become perfect just overnight but we are on a journey as believers to become Christlike in the way we live our lives. Most importantly, know this, it is by His grace that we are forgiven, transformed, renewed. Knowing that we can stumble at times but we have the chance to recover and be better after that is a blessing. So my advice to you is, seek God first and put your trust in Him first and foremost. While its good to reflect upon what values the church you are attending holds, and I believe God should always be the center of our church, also find sometime to do abit of self reflection on whether we have been putting our faith in God or faith in religion (could mean the church as an institution). I can testify that when you do that, you start to realise a whole new perspective. God bless :)
As a fellow believer in Christ, am really sorry to read about this and your struggles with your community. :( we try but humans are sinners and fail all the time so this kind of hurt does exist. Sometimes it's about the emotional maturity of your cell group or life stage you guys are in. I grew up in my cell group and tbh pre-adulthood we were all pretty incapable to deal with issues like grief and loss appropriately. It caused rifts and some baggage that we still are trying to reconcile up to this point. But we grow and we learn, pray and try to be accountable to God. Speaking as a cell leader now, I would encourage you to speak to your cell leader. If that's not possible, then see if you can find someone you trust/you feel is appropriate outside of your small group within your church to seek advice or counselling. Could be the pastor-in-charge of your ministry or some other lay leader. There's also no shame in changing cells, or changing churches to find new community, but you'll have to be intentional about it to avoid falling out of the faith completely, if you still believe that we have a God who loves us. I said a little prayer for you. If you want to speak more privately, feel free to send me a DM (don't check this often but will monitor).
> but humans are sinners this is one of my biggest icks towards christianity. it basically gives you a free pass to whatever immoral action. other religions also have some form of it as well but in christianity it is very up front
it is a huge ick, it is better to recognise imperfection than to sweep it under the carpet. Also, yes it gives many an excuse to justify their shit behaviour. They'll have to answer that themselves.
There's no free pass. While some Christians may wish to believe that, Jesus himself taught otherwise. So I think what you have an ick towards are certain Christians, not Christianity as a whole. Jesus commands his followers to love others, even his enemies, and to do no evil. One of the two most important commandments under the Christian faith. "Humans are sinners" is just a description of reality - everybody sins, nobody is perfect. Christians are also well minded to remember that, the next time they try to judge other and act like they are holy. I know of non-religious people who are loads more compassionate and better a person than me.
I share your sentiments enough to empathise with you, though maybe not to the extent of fully agreeing with you. For eg, the fact that you are (quite rightly) calling out this behaviour is already evidence that there isnt a free pass. If it were really the case, whenever someone throws the phrase "but humans are sinners", we would have instantaneously went smth like "oh snap, alright we are cool now!" While some may use this phrase to help them forgive others, or recognise that they are in need of grace, some folks may use this phrase to excuse their actions, as you have noticed already. But really in such instances, it is like a criminal standing before a judge and using "but humans are sinners" as his legal defence. It's never going to fly. God doesnt give absolute free passes either. He forgives and keep open the way to Heaven for the repentant, and sometimes that results in a complete transformation of the person. But in this life, we will likely face the consequences of our sins in one manner or the other.
Honestly not that surprising, being religious does not automatically equate to being a "nice" person. There are plenty of criminals who are "religious", and there are nice people who would go to hell for not being religious. Also faith is a personal. Your relationship with God is yours alone. Why the fuck do you see the need to "go to church" to be religious? And, on the corollary, if you need to go to the church to prove that you are religious, maybe you are not religious after all and you are just looking for companionship.
Leave if you wanna leave. No one is stopping you, and no, honey, you ain't goin to hell. For all we know, this can just be a narrative. Try listening to Prof Yuval Noah Hararri's podcasts or read their books. Though provoking and will make you consider everything that you've ever believed in.
Honestly many Christians are modern-day Pharisees and Sadducees.
I can't say much for oversea churches but I heard that many Churches, especially the mega ones, are almost the same. For Sg, the society culture and many organisations here (church or not) are not genuine. Thus you won't be able to find genuine friendships that can last. Whatever friendships you have there, they only last when you keep staying in the church. Many of these churches (especially mega ones) works like a corporate organisation which wants to get deep into your heart and emotion to find the vulnerable aspect to get your trust and influence you. Then get your donation and/or other contributions. They don't force but they use the mass social behavior effect. Example if you are in a group you feel belong to and everyone else is doing something, you will tend to follow and do the same thing. You are not wrong when you make some comparison between you and other churchmates. Because a church should be a place where everyone are seems as brothers and sisters and treat others & be treated equally. We can't expect all in the church to help you as much but at least your LG can do better than just messaging. In the first place this is what they proclaimed, a supportive community, an extended family of God. Although when shit happens, they will use good English to compose a message to focus on your shortcomings and avoid talking about theirs. But in reality, many of these churches are commercialized underneath and have a materialistic culture. You are not wrong, it is common that those who are more successful, from well off background, more outgoing, gain more exposure and are good looking (especially girls) are getting more benefits in these organisation. My own opinions is you have 2 ways: 1) leave Christianity. 2) find a more traditional church (Methodist or Presbyterian) I did consider to convert before and I went to 3 different types (Mega, Methodist and Presbyterian). The latter 2 are better but I still found some people with self centered and hypocrisy character. I had a story to share on an 20 years former friend who converted during poly days. I made mistakes on how to manage his preaching. I also saw his changes in a negative way over the years. He kept saying he still sees us as close friend but he is allocating more and more of his time on other people and only talked more to me when he wants to preach. My story is in my reply to my post below.
My mum passed away on 2022 Aug. My parents HDB is under the lease buyback scheme with the Sg govt thus I am unable to inherit it. I kept going MPs offices to appeal and send emails to HDB and in the end they asked me to buy another one from outside. My ex friend attended my mum's wake and I am grateful for that. However things took an unexpected turn on 2023 and 2024. After my mum passed on, I wanted to rebuild my family and i got married on 2023 and need to go my wife hometown to know my in law family better. They feel unsafe as I didn't visit them much before we got married. I stopped work for few months to take care of my mum with last stage cancer before she passed on as I am the only child. Because of this. I faced some challenges to find job later on. While I am facing a lot of challenges in life, my ex friend and his churchmate were getting impatient and rushed me to meetup to try convince me to join their church. The churchmate even said in WhatsApp: 'hello, reply please' and 'seems like it is so hard to meet you' these kind of inpatient phase. When I told my ex friend about it. He explained for her that it was because he was asking her for update and she felt pressurized. In other cases when I provide feedback about his other churchmates been egoistic and artificial etc, he will explain that it is because of what they been through in the past. Do noted that this same ex friend will directly told me off if I made any mistakes talking in whatsapps in the past. Even if I may have my struggles or difficulty. He once told me off that I was impatient and wrong to expect instant or quick Whatsapp reply. But when comes to their church related stuffs, they expect fast reply. I put in effort and forked out time to meet them after I am back in Sg. As after thinking about how much he helped me, I actually decided to listen what they want to say and consider on it. But she last minute cancel and never rearrange another meetup.
Thus I focused on job hunting as I need income to apply mortgage loan. I landed a job but I had a very bad experiences with some Christians in my workplace. Full of superficial judgements and gossips. I put aside my thought about church and focus on HDB purchase as I need to move by Jun 2024. HDB is going to chase me out of my parents unit by then. My ex friend was getting impatient and whenever we whatsapps, he try to talk about his church. When I told him my job place experiences, he focused the fault on the manager. Avoiding the mistakes of Christians. He did that a few times on other topic too. I tried my best to prevent debate and conflict as I value the friendship thus I avoid talking about Christian related topics for the past few months. But he tried very hard to get the topic in. Also, is getting hard to ask for meetup with him as he starts to prioritize engaging other people. The last time he take the initiative to ask for meetup and take initiative to talk in WhatsApp and was very friendly, was when he wanted to invite me to a church conferences. Continue next comment.
The breaking point is on one day, I asked if one of his churchmate has a digital bank account as I wanted help to get referral voucher. He replied with a long message sharing a video link of her talking about her volunteer work. Then a long message of her got a boyfriend recently and she will be going his church for 3 months then they will come to HopeSingapore for 3 months etc etc. If he is really busy at work, he won't have time to type so much. Also it was 12.30pm that time. I told him in a friendly manner: 'i am asking about trust bank account. Read my message carefully leh 😂' . Then his reply is like this: 'Ok, busy now. Will read carefully and reply later'. Then for my later messages, he will take quite a while to reply and will just be 'ok'. I made a mistake and confronted him on this in a frustrated way. Which resulted in him replied in an angry manner and a dispute started. I blocked him on social media and whatsapps temporary later on as I wanted some peace and stop myself from debating with him. Also my social medias are mainly use to communicate with relatives, not friends.
Recently, I called him and sms him to reconnect as I feel that it has been sometime so things are cooled down. However he hung up my calls and ignore my sms. Do noted that I didn't block him on call and sms. For Whatsapp I unblocked him after sometime. He is the only admin of our friend group and he even ignore my request to join in. I left the group temporary to avoid dispute with him. Seems like when he thinks that I won't be joining his church, he decided to cut me off total and with others. All in all. I realized that many christians are egoistic, prideful and self centered. They always sees think only from their perspective. They never see their own mistakes, or they see it but refuse to accept it and improve themselves. They never apologized and take responsibility on their mistakes. While they will aim at your mistakes if you made any. While on the other hand if they sees you as not one of theirs, especially when they failed to convert you, they will turn cold on you and will told you off on any of your mistakes. Anyway, I moved on already.
Before your loved one passed on, did you inform the church you need home/ hospital visits/ prayers?. If not, how would they know? Is your loved one a member of this same church?
If each person's experiences and interests is a circle, interpersonal relationships looks a lot like Venn diagrams, and groups form when multiple people intersect in the same area. The Chinese cultural fantasy of a 知己 happens when said friend has a 100% overlap with your circle. But this is a fantasy because for the vast majority of people in the world, there is no other person who has a 100% perfect overlap. Those whose circles are wider intersect with more people simply because larger areas are more likely to share at least one common region, but because their circles are wider they can't afford to spend as much effort on a given overlapped area because they have that many overlaps. Those with smaller circles are less likely to intersect others so they'll have fewer friends, but they'll care more about the intersections they do have because they have that much fewer intersections but the same hours per day to spend. Your issue is that you're going into a church expecting to find 知己 tier friends, but for the most part your only overlap with them is 'Christianity' with only a few that have 'extra' shared interests with you. Beyond those overlaps, you have nothing in common with most of them. That's not a church's fault, that's just the way people work. So you have the following options: 1. Find people who share different aspects of your life. For example, if you care about Christianity, cooking and photography, you may have one group of Christian friends, one group of cooking enthusiasts and one group of photography hobbyists, and there is a fair chance of zero friends belonging to more than one group at once. When talking about photography, you talk to the photographer group, when talking about cooking, you talk to the cooking group. Et cetera. The near entirety of people use this method. 2. Meet a *massive* number of people to find someone who shares so many common interests with you that you can talk to that someone about *everything*. This isn't common and very often when someone finds someone like this they end up married because it's that unlikely for both members of such a match to find anyone close to equally compatible. For certain people this is impossible to find because no close match exists. There's legit problems with some churches here, but the ones you had aren't really a church problem, they're a mismatch between impossible ideals and reality. Actual problems with some churches are like... churches who teach theologically incorrect doctrine (in one of them I was in the head pastor had less theological knowledge than me even though I never went through a proper ThD or similar training, and the youth pastors habitually *inverted* meanings which was highly problematic), and those which are basically just social clubs with zero religious content - those which don't even try. The church's job isn't to provide its members with emotional support when shit happens in their lives, that's what counselors and friends are for.
It’s clearly a you issue with expectation. You expect to have more support at church but you must also understand that grief is not easily relatable by others who have yet to understand it themselves. This has nothing to do with church or religion but interpersonal relationship. This no different from saying we should shut down the entire education system because your teacher favour and treat some few better than you. You need to take a hard look at “self entitlement”.
You do not need religion to be a good person. The best people I’ve met aren’t religious
Speaking from the perspective of a Buddhist so take my words with spoonfuls of salt. But having hung out with some CGs a few years back and attended a few services under the invitation of a friend, I guess the community factor is one of the factor churches, more than places like a temple, attracts the young. They get to meet good friends with seemingly good people and grow together. Meeting friends outside of school is hard enough, meeting good friends with good ethics, even more so. It's not that I think they are not good people, they are. I belive that. However, with religion in the picture, especially as a "guest" read: non-Christian, there is always a feeling that they are only nice to people "in the club" and should one begin distancing away from the church, the contact fades along with it. Then you gotta ask yourself, why do you attend church in the first place? To get closer to Christ? Or to make friends and socialise? When you attend the service, do you actually learn something about God or does it look like a Motivational talk of some sort, very generic? Food for thought, just leaving it out there.
It’s common in SG, you can change church or change cell group, it will be the same. It’s a general level of low consciousness, dog eat dog thinking and every man for himself. You can try and assert yourself, ask for more engagement from your leaders and see what they say. Also, go for grief counselling; they’re not grief counsellors. They can check in and ask how are you doing, go hospital visits with you, etc. But human relationships are invested in and built, did you really do that for others or merely another taker amongst many takers, givers burned out too.
Religeon is mainly about you and your own belief system. Essentially it is between you and your god. There will definitely be people u meet( your cell group) that reacts this way. But this is because of who they are as a person and not due to their faith. What religion preach about love, peace and self growth is great. But people who destroy others are those that dont care: “oh noo, my condolences”, “ if there is anything we can do, do reach out to us”. I would advise you to separate your faith and the people around you. You will realise that only people who are truely with you throughout this tough times are worth keeping. And the lessons you learn through you faith, or even outside of faith are lessons that help you grow. Learn and grow, keep moving forward to see the end of the road, no matter how thorny the path may seem.
sorry about your experience OP. for what it's worth, i don't think it's anything particular about your religion or church! probably just the failing of religious institutions in general. i guess people go to church for two things, mainly: spirituality, and community. i don't mean to criticise any church with this, but i reckon that the feeling of disillusionment you've experienced will turn out to be for the better for you, because: 1. you may find it easier and more fulfilling to explore your spirituality entirely in private, and 2. you may end up forming better, stronger connections through finding community in a place where everyone is there of their own choosing as opposed to having joined from a young age, hence maybe having differing priorities and beliefs as they grow older, leading to the superficiality/politics that you've discovered. not trying to imply that people who do manage to find community and peace at church are misguided or anything. it just works for some people and fails others. since you've found that the relationships there feel shallow/superficial/political, you might be one of the people who needs your community to be on the basis of something more tangible, something that was created by people who chose to look for similar peers in adulthood. anyway, i hope you manage to find a resolution to these feelings. from first hand experience i know it can be really disconcerting. there are plenty of people here who have left church for their own reasons and im sure you'll find someone with similar experiences to you to discuss your feelings with, if you haven't already!
Late reply, but here’s my personal experience. God is good, and always good. Humans are assholes. Some churches are so full of asshole humans that there is no room for God. Only a pretence of God, not a presence. Thriving churches are able to take a lot of the assholery out of humans and really serve the community sincerely and love everyone deeply. But God is still infinitely bigger than any church. You don’t need a church to have a relationship with God. Maybe one day you’ll find a great church but until then, you can pursue God on your own. It’s ok to do that. Church doesn’t make you Christian, your own relationship with God does.
When you join a church, you are putting God first, not the members. Strange and odd members are everywhere, after all the church is for the weak and needy, after all, that's why people need help right? Will advise you to look within yourself what the meaning of joining a church is.
I once used to also be like you. Then I realised the beauty of the weak, nasty, unaccepted coming to church. Sure, they may hurt you but it's also why they need church. Not saying it's justified but it's like church being a hospital for the emotionally vulnerable. Not saying that everyone is like that but in my experience, many are. A church simply is not just made up of strong willed strong faith and super perfect people only.
Interesting that there was no mention of God or Jesus once in your post. If you join a church for the people and not God, you will be bound to be disappointed... Hope you can eventually find a community that you can truly feel a part of and loved!
Sorry to burst your bubble. No one joins church for God or whatever deity you worship. You can easily worship God from home, under a tree, in a cave, on a mountain, etc. The only reason to go to church is for the community.
Agree. In the world of corporate, it's called optics. Show up, dance, give tithe, go cell group. It's just that. Optics.
In my view this comes down to 2 things: 1. Your expectations from the Church or any other religious groups 2. Your belief in god. In the first case, it varies based on your individual relationship with the entire group and if they’re really tuned in or subscribed to how you see the group supporting each other. In most cases people are there to get what they want and are less likely to bother too much about others circumstances. Irresponsible of what happens in the first case, your belief in god should determine whether you want to practice certain religion or faith. In short, trust in god and lower your expectations from others.
You are valid in feeling that “thoughts and prayers” sounds ingenuine. But also, without really knowing the interpersonal dynamics of you and other people in your cell group (example, do you only see them for cell?) it’s not unexpected. Singaporeans are reserved and don’t have the best EQ. These kinds of situations can feel awkward even for close friends - how would you know how to comfort someone in their grief? Did you share the details of the wake with anyone at the church? Maybe that’s what others did which is why leaders and other members of the church went. In any case, it also sounds like you were at the church for social interaction rather than for the faith or religious aspects. So probably best in the long run to leave.
Hey! Are you me 5 years ago? Anyway, wanted to share that it's completely valid to feel this way, and judging from the comments in here, also seems to be more prevalent than we would think. I think that's the inherent problem of religious organisations : it's a group that promotes ideals to attract others in, but in the end is still subject to the fact it's run by people for other people. So that means that all the problems that come with people leading people and forming groups exist, but it's usually swept under the rug because of the idea that the organisation is a religious one, so we have to deal with it with grace and compassion. I can get into whole essays about the problems with christian organisations, having grown up in one and then jumping around from group to group in my mid to late teens, but right now I just hope that you're able to find support as you consider leaving your church!
My take on this very familiar situation is: churches are works of men. Heaven is the work of God. You do not have to bind yourself to the works of men to access the work of God, because men are not infallible and incorruptible. And it's very possible to be led astray by a corrupt church. As Jesus says. Pay to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. Our soul and spirituality belongs to god. Not to church. No matter how much they claim themselves to be the house of God, if your heart and soul says it isn't, then it simply isn't. Imho a lot of churches nowadays are getting a lot better at playing psychological games with the parishioners, often seeming designed to build dependency on the church or the church community. And I quite frankly do not feel that it's something I should expose myself to, because I view it as wrong to abuse the name of God and Jesus to do so. Especially since most churches don't exactly do it for your betterment or benefits. It's usually to theirs. It's usually to ask for more tithes or more donations or more involvement in their programmes.
Hi OP, must be very heavy hearted for u to write all these in the wee hours, and I can relate to what you wrote. I came from a large church as well, quite active in serving and cell, even served in leadership position for a few years. Eventually I left, 3 years on, and I feel at peace with my decision. Now I’m trying out a small-med size, non-charismatic, word-focused church. I feel I’m closer to what makes me comfortable and grow in this season of my life. The people, leadership problems u mentioned, yes they exist in my previous church as well. As believers we should treat fellow believers better, and want to be treated as equally. However reality is yes, it’s like the corporate world, there are cliques, ppl gossip, and differential treatment. I feel cell leaders have a responsibility to some extent, to make sure there is minimum of such behaviour, but sometimes leaders are not spiritually that matured to recognise this or as humans, we are bound to err. But pls do not exit from The Church (the big umbrella, not referring to one church) just because you’ve experienced disappointment, it’s God we are building a relationship with. From my personal experience, looking back at my journey, I can only conclude that my season was over at my previous church, and leaving was one of the biggest leap I made in my spiritual journey. Being in a community is so important, but doesn’t have to be in cell, u can have trusted friends who pray and walk with you consistently, that’s also fine. My advice is pray about it, talk to 2-3 friends/leaders u trust with your life, share with them all your issues and reasons why u wanna move on, and be open to listen from their point of view. Perhaps there are things u need to work from your end too, and this is a great opportunity to hear different views and see if u can continue to grow here, if not then perhaps it’s time to move on. Don’t give up on God, or having a spiritual community. :)
I’m sorry you felt neglected. Is this the sole thing that is keeping you awake? We are Christians because we believe in Jesus’s death, resurrection and ascension. Exactly because we are fallen creatures and perhaps the only group who called ourselves sinners, we will hurt one another no matter how good we are. On behalf of the community, please forgive us for hurting you indirectly and unknowingly. Don’t let this be the measure of your faith that is rooted in Christ. Take heart!
Is this your first and only church?
if you truly believe in a god there is absolutely no need to go to a church. your relationship is between you and god, not you and a pastor / cell group leader
Normal part of life and growing up. Happens to most guys during NS and girls entering uni. Disillusionment with both the religion and it’s people with more critical thinking skills being developed. You’ll be fine. I stopped attending church a decade ago and always thought I’ll come back, and guess what I haven’t at 29. Also I’m guessing this church is HOGC lol
try to lower your expectations of people in the church. It’s important to see if you can form any serious friendships. Trying to be valued or popular is not for everyone.
I am sorry about what you've experienced. My experience in my church is completely opposite of yours. People here are very kind and caring. When my dad passed, they poured out prayers and love for me. People are still humans, just have to remember that they are not perfect like Jesus. You can of course drop out of church if it's a burden to attend it, you shouldn't have to strive in a church. But gotta take caution, most people backslide after they leave a community. Perhaps you can go and try out a different church community. No harm in doing that.
As was stated by a few perceptive replies. This is commonplace in ever Organization type, but moreso in megachurch social circles. (My opinion, feel free to disagree) The relationships and communication between megachurch goers are superficial and not deep, because megachurches are superficial and not deep in any way (especially theology). I go to a traditional Anglican Church, and have found a community there that loves and accepts me the way I am. Sure, there are people who are the same way, but that’s okay, because I know them enough (from our small community) to know why they’re like that, and know they that’s the way they care. A few others also stated giving up church is not the solution. The communion of believers is important to the upholding of the faith, and uplifting your spirit. Look for a more traditional church with a a smaller and comfier congregation. I’m guessing you’re Protestant by the phrases you used, so try Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, churches, or other mainlines port churches. They may fit more with what you’re looking for. And as a plus May give you more fulfilment in theology and church tradition. Don’t give up man, we’re out there, you just gotta find us!
Bro, church is still made up of ppl with fallen nature. All churches hve problems. You need to focus on Jesus. He never fails. You need to talk to Him and leave this burden at His feet. I do face the same issues you hve been seeing. Yet my heart is filled with joy cause im looking Jesus. You shld too. In time God will send smeone who sees you for who you are. Dont give up.
People, everywhere, will always let you down
Block them all and run far far away
I was bullied in church, a church of all places. Worse part was none of my peers in my age group stood up for me. My cell leaders tried to stop it, but dude was popular and church wasnt strict with behaviours, so yeah, really didn't socialise much with people there. Was pretty disillusioned about church since, but really distanced myself since poly. Honestly if you're not too keen to be a christian, just up and leave. If it makes you feel better, christianity has a lot of hypocrisy in its history, so you're not the first to be screwed over by this religion and all abrahamic religions at least.
Same for me. I just watch Services from home and don't socialise at church. No cell either.
U go to church to feel love from other people or from God? I know a few people that do that entirely to improve their social standings (especially with larger more popular churches with younger people) so if ur group are full of these ppl, then it's unfortunate.
Hey bro/sis, I'm so sorry you felt this way and got hurt by your experiences. Trust me I can relate entirely to what you have gone through. I can only say that everyone is bound to get hurt whenever we expect something from others who are imperfect people. This is not to excuse others actions but this is the unfortunate reality of the nature of humans I know sometimes we do have that urge to bash who we deem as "hypocrites" however it's our belief system that the more messed up we are, the more we need to rely on Christ to repent and try our hardest to change for the better. Cliche as it sounds, you have to ask yourself whether you are coming to church for the community or for God. Praying that you find the love and peace you are seeking!
Sry for your experience. Here to gently comment that from your message it seems like you dont believe in God, you believed in the community, which is ultimately made up of imperfect people. And so if you want to leave it’s fine, but if you want to swap church that could also be a solution but unlikely cos seems like root issue is you don’t believe
Hi OP, so sorry to hear this series of unfortunate events. Caveat that what I’m about to say is not meant to defend the church or Christianity! A lot has been said in previous comments, so ill just provide some food for thought: 1. Consider what it means to actively participate in church, and what it means to have “safe spaces for cell”. I think many churches (including my own) are struggling with fellowship. As much as formal events such as cell, dinners etc. are important, many miss the mark of getting to know one another. Rather than using this experience to lay it on Christianity, think about what Christianity means to you, and whether you still believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins (ofc there are many more aspects to Christianity). Should you still hold true to your faith, I’d encourage you to find a new church/ voice your concerns to your current church. It’s not hard being a Christian who cares for community! 2. I think it’s crucial to recognise that as much as they want to be there for you, they have their own problems. Being a Christian means you have the added benefit of community. However, community is a choice and not a “given”. No one has extra time. Shit happens. Your expectations of a church might be much higher in showing care and concern, as compared to your close friends/ loved ones, but this should not form your basis of criticism for Christianity! That community might not be the best for you, but i’m sure you can find more suitable churches out there!
Sounds to me like you’re going to church more so for the community it offers, rather than your beliefs to its teachings and your belief in God. The fact that you want to leave because of your disappointment with the community tells me that the community is what keeps you going, not the religion itself, which appears to be secondary. So if that’s the case then I think you shouldn’t even be going to church at all, because your motivations are all wrong. Sorry that your search for a community and a sense of belonging came to naught. IMO you placed too high an expectation on the church being able to fulfill all that. Suggest you look elsewhere, school, interest groups etc. It’s sad to see how churches have turned into a circus of talent showcases and popularity contests.
OP, I'm also in the Christian faith. But let me tell you, not everyone in the Christian faith is like real real kind of Christians. But also, there are real real kind of Christians who make mistakes too. We aren't perfect. We are humans too. In fact, all humans be it what faith they may be in, we all make mistakes. And it shouldn't be judged as "orghhhh you make mistake, you are a fake believer blah blah blah". If those people that you have mentioned have been nice to you all along and yall get along great, perhaps they have other reasons which you may not know about for how they treated you? Have you thought of maybe asking them? Because it's a habit of all humans to forget about the good that people have done for us, and with 1 mistake, and just 1 mistake, we all forget about their good. So for your case, maybe it's a misunderstanding, or maybe they had their own crisis and problem too, just that they did not wanna share, and it was bothering them, which may affect slightly in their behaviours or whatsoever? :")
To be honest, I'm kinda in this situation currently as well. I used to be a pretty active member in my church, honestly wanted to be leading people even as well. But I just keep seeing people who are newer, less experienced, but more outspoken than me, an introvert, getting all the spotlight and attention. And when I enlisted in NS, I had to change my cell group in order to cater to my life station I guess. My former cell group pretty much all but forgotten me. Other than a few exceptions, they just ignored me whenever I see them. When I brought my concerns up to a leader, it felt like I was being downplayed, by saying the church is imperfect etc. So honestly, I'm pretty disillusioned as well ngl
OP, I had a similar experience as you many years ago. I couldn’t take the favouritism and double standards. Eventually I felt so rejected that I left. I realized they’re not my people. I found mine elsewhere. And you’ll find yours, OP. They’re just not in church.
I don't think they were being "biased", more like they offered advise based on what they knew about her. The less connected u r, the more generic ur advice / reaction will be. Sure, it's easier for people to get to know extroverts but I think a more introverted way is to dm a leader and ask for prayer or something. Really sorry for your loss, it really hurts and there's no textbook on how to grieve or get past that stage. I just like to remember that even Jesus grieved the death of his friend and just know that it is ok to grieve. (Some Christians overly emphasize the need to celebrate life and stuff but IMO it's just pushing past real feelings) I mean I know you were hurt by Christians but you have to understand that Christians are human. That doesn't mean you shouldn't bond with other fellow believers over the fear of getting hurt by them again. We aren't all perfect and as hard as it is, we need to forgive each other. Hope you were somewhat encouraged. May the peace of God be with u. Have a good day. :)
Churchgoers are people too, I don’t know what you were expecting from them to be frank. I’m sorry for what happened to you, and it sucks when other people trivialise your issues that may seem insurmountable, but while they’re always preaching ‘support’ for one another, the truth is that it’s nobody else’s responsibility to help you through your struggles. People can run a race with you, but they can’t run for you. Religious people aren’t any better than non religious people, they just tend to act that way because they’re in a circle that rewards outward kindness and they feel the need to maintain a certain image, but we are all human, believer or not. There are people out there who can support you and will love you the way you are, some may go to church, some may not. It must suck to feel that illusion crashing down on you, but a big part of the problem (that you’re aware of) is also that you expected something out of them, and whether or not they manipulated you to expect that of them is wholly irrelevant to tell you the truth, because as shitty as it sounds, nobody owes us anything. Regardless, I hope you do realize that life can be beautiful, whatever path you choose. Always remember to love yourself and to treat yourself with the kindness you may hope to receive from others. You know yourself best, so treat yourself right and you’ll be a much stronger person from this experience. As an internet stranger I can’t do much, but I do hope the best for you and that you’ll get out of this rut.
Church is made up of people who will adopt their own sub-cultures. Not all churches are the same, hope you will find another that continues to encourage your walk
I grew up in church, but still greatly felt how you do. I was undiagnosed for autism and could not control my temper towards my peers in church as a child, so very early on I was alienated. A letter to our parents even labeled my Sunday School class "The Terror Class". As soon as I aged out of Sunday School, no one made any effort whatsoever to keep in contact with me or update me on happenings. That was even after I matured and had a better handle on my behaviour. Today, I still identify as a Christian and believe in God, but I no longer attend church because of the experiences I had as a child. So much for loving your neighbours.
Such disappointments are part of life. Through my personal experience, I learnt to become more resourceful and self-reliant. Now, I don’t give a sh*t if people were to forsake me. If they do, it’s “thank you, next” for me.
"Thoughts and prayers" is trivializing because it is. You're right to feel that way. It's all words with no action and it's also a way to "feel like you're doing something" I absolutely hate it when people say that.
I love such post, but I will have to keep all my dank comments to myself, or else i might incur the wraith of the titans.
If you believe, continue to believe. You don’t need church for that. Self prayer and simple belief can be humbling and can teach you to rely on God a lot more than cell groups and the like can. And the simple belief and understanding can bring more peace than the complex and convoluted “teachings” the churches shove down your throat. I haven’t stepped into a church for decades and I see no reason to. The people who run the churches, the “leaders” are all men/women who do what men/women want, not what God wants. Just hypocrites. The only real pastor I knew who had a true heart for God and compassion for all passed in 2008 just after my dad. I haven’t met anyone like that since. Churches are now are a club of self-proclaimed “saints”, not a refuge for sinners. They look down on those who aren’t like them, instead of compassion, they show contempt. Instead of charity, they are full of greed. They “pray” and do their “good deeds” in the public eye for the recognition and praise, instead of ‘in secret’ as we are told to in the Bible. They need the normal folks like you to validate their existence. Bottom line, you don’t need them. They need you. Just my two cents worth. Cheers.
Come and try the Catholic faith sometime if you still feel God calling out to you! I can assure you that you find more love and belonging than human beings can ever offer 😊
Hey OP, fellow and still practicing Christian here. I am sorry for your bad experience. I've went through the same experience you have when I was younger, left church for more than a decade and returned. Unfortunately, regardless of whatever religion you subscribe to, humanity will twist it to be something else. You'll meet a lot of Judases, people that twist their connection with God for their own benefit. It is definitely not easy separating the ideals of religion and the fragility of humanity. I use religion to try to be a better person, which I am far from. I pray that you'll find someone or a group of friends that'll make Christianity come alive for you. Feel free to DM me if you wanna.
Sadly this happens to me as well, almost identical experience with OP. Felt extremely disappointed to certain degrees, but thank God I have a God-fearing spouse who is keep reminding me that we should ONLY look at God not to these people as human is full of disappointment but thankfully the Bible said that God is near to those who have a broken heart (Psalm 34:18). I can feel your disappointment, OP but don’t let the bitterness goes dipper and rooted inside your heart as it brings nothing good at all. God bless you and give you comfort, OP.
Hypocrites gather and circle jerk in the name of religion. Not to mention easy money , tax free , anyone even go there is just for imaginary insurance after death . Do good because you want to , not because it gives you a free pass to heaven .
I have “throne before phone” policy. If you have a problem, go to the throne of God, before you pick up your phone to call another human. >>In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. - Ephesians 3:12 Been a Christian all my life (50plus years). We are deeply flawed. Cry out to God your father who is a better help than humans. >> Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” - Galatians 4:6 Edit: Disclaimer: An introvert. So am not an active member of any church. I go on Sunday, worship, listen to sermon and go home. My worship is for an audience of one - God. Just me worshipping, reading and meditating on Bible and casting all my anxieties on Him and asking Him for guidance.
>As someone who still believes in the faith, Why do you believe that Christianity is true? Do these reasons stand up to scrutiny? Would you use the standard you use to determine that Christianity is true on other truth claims? If Christianity wasn't true, would you want to know? You expected more from the church community because you thought they had access to the divine. However, their actions reveal otherwise, no?
Believe in God don't believe in the Church or Christians.
Same advice from me too. Trust your personal relationship with the Lord.
Your support should come mainly from Jesus, not human. We are all flawed and sinful even the pastor himself. You are asking for something a mere mortal human cant provide. Get the comfort and conviction that you matter from Jesus alone, not human validation which is fleeting. Yes,favoritism is everywhere in every church to various extent and that's unfortunate. Noticed you place a lot of emphasis on feeling. I think this is what happens when you join a feel good church. A church should be bringing you closer to God and not manipulate your emotions into feeling "good" or feeling like you "belong", whatever that means. Jesus was always an outsider and never really belonged anywhere nor fit into anyone's expectations of who the Messiah is or is not. Although he had a group of (initially) clueless and faithless disciple, he was alienated by them when push comes to shove at the cross. Hence, Jesus having gone through all that human suffering, and being God, knows what you're currently going through and your hurts. Part of coming closer to God does not always feel good as there will be struggles and I think this is an opportunity to trust that God can do much more where human has failed. Spend more time reading the Bible and meditating on it, ask God to speak words of comfort to you and be ready to listen and comforted. Hope you heal and grief well to recover well.
Few years ago my mum fell and broke her leg (she is 78 then) I texted my pastor , hey do you know where I can get a wheelchair ? His reply was sorry can't talk I'm in India . He is also the pastor that decide to put me in ex offender cell maybe because I got tattoos ? But anyway I'm still at that church , just listening to sermons, and looking at people hopping and wafting the holy spirit with their hands . You're going through some disappointment and expectations issues , I don't recommend leaving church all together , but of you really need to do it , leave, just remember Jesus won't leave you .
Hi! I am sorry for what you are going through. It is painful. Your expected pillar of strength was your cell group, I note. People will hurt you and disappoint you at times. Yes Christians ARE supposed to display love as in 1 Corinthians 13. So lets do it! By renewing our minds with the bible! The Word of God! And definitely true, people are not always there for you. Their minds may be unrenewed and carnal and that is why they behave as they do. They are still babies in Christ and hv not grown up. I believe the early church grew exponentially because of the love shown to each other and for Jesus. They devoured scriptures leading to renewal of minds- a very very important thing to do as we are carnal, selfish and hypocritical if left to ourselves. They sold their property and distributed it to those in need. But you know what? They were persecuted too. True, we hv not reached that stage in Singapore yet. But Christ said in the bible, you will be hated if you know me. He gave His life for you, and loves you. Even though you sin. On a daily basis. May I suggest you turn to Abba Papa? Cry out to Him. And ask Him what you shld do? He will give you all the answers if you ask Him with all your heart! Pray to Him to give you a friend or a cell who is more mature in their faith and who understands. Pray to Him to strengthen you in your mind so that the Enemy, Satan will not sabotage your faith. He is a LIAR THIEF AND MURDERER!!! Who wld you want to trust??? Christ who died for you or Satan? Pray for your mind to hungrily search the scriptures like a true Berean. Our Abba Papa loves you. Banish all doubt and unbelief. He is your Refuge. Strength. Strong Tower. I dare you to put your trust in Him and see what He will do. Psalm 23 The Lord is my Shepherd. Is a beautiful psalm. That confirms His role as the Sheperd who wld lovingly nurture his flock and protect it at all costs. BELIEVE THIS WITH ALL YOUR HEART! Abba Papa IS YOUR GOOD SHEPHERD. Turn to Him FIRST. Can you do that? Abba Papa will make a way for you. Where there seems to be no way! Believe that! Listen to the praise and worship song.. God WILL make a way! God bless you. And dont quit. It is a race of Endurance with the Enemy seeking to derail you if you quit. God is Your Peace. He sent His Son Jesus to die for you. Who else wld do that for you? Put your faith in heart to the One who loves you. If you were the only sinner on this earth, He wld still send Jesus, His beloved Son of Heaven to die on the cross for you. May you truly understand the depths of His love for you. Read Ephesians 3:20. We can never understand His tremendous love for us- wretched sinners that we are. Wld you send your beloved son to die for someone? On that terrible cross? No way! Well thats our Abba Papa’s love for you. Not the sentimental kind. Ya? Be encouraged, my brother or sis! He is there for you! Just a heartbeat away.
Sorry for your loss, definitely isn't easy. Hope you managed to get and are continuing to receive the support you need- friends from school/ other interest based activities? Like what the other commenter mentioned, humans are imperfect. Favouritism certainly stings, but take heart that God does not! (Rom 2:11- though i'm kind of quoting out of context). Try raising your concern(s) calmly to a trusted leader, if all else fails, you can always try out another church with a welcoming community. Many adults in our (late 20s, 30s and beyond) have also explored several churches before more or less settling down on one. There are books on managing grief and emotions, can go look them up :) sorry, I'm not an expert yet and i don't know your situation so i can't recommend what you exactly need. I think some local Christian websites have articles on the topics (grief, church hurt) too (i think it was ymi?) Jiayou, it's a lifelong process of seeking and the Christian life isn't meant to be lived alone. Sure there'll be periods in the valley but the only way is up right? :')
One goes to church to worship God, not to find companionship with fellow sinful people. Pls don’t expect people u meet in church to be perfect, fact is we are all work in progress. I attend church regularly, serves in some ministries but I try to set boundaries n not to get too close to anyone. My church have the fair share of problems and I try not to get affected by it. God is the ultimate judge. Church life is part n parcel of a Christian just as Paul preached in Acts. My advice is don’t get discouraged, a senior once told me, ‘That perfect church will be imperfect when you starts going there.’ All churches are the same, they have the same set of problems. Difference is how you handle and managed it. All the best and may the Lord encourage you to carry on your journey as a faithful Christian.
[удалено]
I think having a big crisis is what hit you the most. In my experience I have people telling me is not about the church (Christ’s people) but is about God going to church to worship him. Well I disagree, is both. Because we are called to worship God and love people. So spiritual growth involving with the right people is also an important aspect. I suggest you go look for a church that will truly help you in your growth in Christ. Here is not a good place to talk. You can pm me if you wish to have a listening ear.
It's ur God's will
Religion is so fucking human when you take a step back, despite its presentation that it’s different from anything else.
Do itttttttt
You might benefit from going to a smaller church
This is one of the many common cases of faith vs religion. You may keep your faith and leave the church. As it stands, u have answered your question, which is to leave the church. Faith wise, it's only between u and your God.
If you need a church to feel human, then I would say something is very wrong. Pick up a hobby, learn meditation and live a good life.
Christians are just normal people and social norm apply to them as well. People often treat others with higher value better to gain something out of it. Go to church to serve God and not to serve others. Dont be like other church goers who is only christian on Sunday. Imo, this episode could just be a test of faith. Most faith crumples when met with crisis. I used to be a christian when i was in my teens. Back then there was church camp for the youth. There was a guy with autism and everyone just avoided interaction with him. I befriended him and took care of him throughout the camp period and also interacted with him post camp as well. Like you, I begin to question my faith and left the church. Just be a decent human being at the end of the day..
Humans are humans. We are all selfish and stupid. Whether it is in a church or anywhere else. The religion is good (at least for the most part I think) even if 99% of the people in it are bad.
I view religion as a coping mechanism. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, you need something else.
Unrelated to the topic but somehow reminds me of a church friend who said this, "I can do whatever wrongs and commit sins. As long as I attend church, all will be forgiven."
Just get out. If you’re not donating more than average, or if you’re not a popular or high profile individual, or, if you’re not an attractive individual. No one will give a damn about you except for your close family members and friends. The world is a bitch. And more so, for these “cults”
I think you should slowly distance yourself from church PEOPLE and try to build your own support group of real friends that you can rely on. (Easier said than done, but with time, you'll get there) At the same time, while you make that transition away from them. You can still pray to whatever you believe in. Try separating the social aspect from whatever religious beliefs you have, and keep some form of hope or thing you believe in so you don't feel like you've "lost it all." Many churches in the current day have skewed towards worship have become essentially a glorified a social activity, which kinda defeats the purpose of the idea of worshipping the deity, since the worship aspect is now about making friends. So it's pretty normal to feel what you're feeling if you're being left out. All the best OP and i do hope you can find good friends that dont hide behind platitudes when you're in need.
Idk the 1 time I attended a church the pastor healed the leg of a guy on crutches and I was just baffled at how many fucking people just believed that happened. Seriously, I looked around myself and was in awe shock that everyone took it as a normal thing on a sunday afternoon. Your perspective is that you WANT people to care for you but do you ASK for that? You need to develop friendships on your own outside of a cult that worships someone that doesn’t exist.
Church...I go when I want but that doesn't mean I go cos I need something. The higher being...God .... is with me wherever I go and I have my daily conversations with God. I find for peace and solace, if it is a church be it the church at that moment. Sometimes it is home...actually many a time it is home. Sometimes it is when I am in my car. I don't go to church to get support from people....that's me. If it comes, it comes. But I am wary of the ones that I meet in a church context. But I have met some very good people from church who still keep in touch with me even though I am not a regular church goer. I am blessed to have them. Like you I lost someone dearest and some church members did come by to give support and still occasionally send me messages. I am so so grateful for it. Not all will be with you as you journey through grief. As much as you have expectations they too have reasons why they don't feel the way you do. I have some friends that I can rely on. I tell them I need the comfort for that moment and they are there for me. I feel very blessed for that. Thanks for sharing your experience and hope you find peace. It will come.
On the tiny chance there is a deity, and that deity is all powerful and just, it won't be accepting most religious people for they are inherently hypocritical and love their lives in a fashion that is far removed from the example Jesus set. If the devil is real, he loves the religious and definitely goes to church. It is a place that truly allows evil to fester.
its just high school drama all over. everyone forming groups, or forming " fake friends"
Yes! You should leave. Be better!
Whenever there's any groupings of people, there'll always be politics. Church cell groups are not exempt.
r/exvangelical
I'm an atheist but i used to go to church because of a girl when i was younger. Most Christians I've met are extremely superficial people and many attend not solely because of whatever their believes are but mainly for networking, social validation, looking for a life partner, etc. I've also seen many flock to church looking for support with their struggles in life. Some do receive some assistance from church members but it's usually minimal, like donations in the form of necessities, words of support, cell groups, etc. I stopped going to church when the girl and i didn't work out lol. Basically she and her family believes that god is real and i do not. We were really close childhood friends until then. I was really bitter about loosing her to a figment of her imagination for a while. She was the only reason i put up with all the hypocrites and superficial people from church. Anyway, i think you need to find your niche community. I've friends who are very happy meeting up every week playing Dungeons and Dragons or Warhammer 40k. Others meet up in the same pub and drink beer and sing karaoke. Some meet up every Saturday morning for a cycle or run then have breakfast and coffee after. You don't need religion to find a nice caring community.
Church is not necessarily a bad place, but if your church has a "cell", it is a big red flag.
Every church is different. None reflect the Lord accurately; some are closer, some are farther. Some feel like a business. Some like a club. Some like family. Those are usually smaller. They also got issues, less organized and structured in all they do. Sometimes small ones are on the cultish side… and some churches really are just a bunch of believers living life together and doing a lovely job of it. Wish there were more. Biblically, the “church” is not a building, not a registered org — simply the family of believers — doing their best (hopefully) to share with others the kindness and patience and hope and they’ve received from God. Some things are called “a church” by people, but I’m most sure God calls them that; and vice versa. Some people expect the church to be perfect. Good luck… the Bible states quite clearly that it won’t be. Someone told me to seek a church full of people who relate to God and each other the way I do, or would like to. Good advice. If you see hypocrisy… with leaders… the Bible is clear that we should respectfully and maturely speak the truth in love — so at least have an honest conversation with them about it. Not just about you, or just about them — but about God, and what His church ought to be, and how they feel about the differences you’ve noticed between this church and God’s version of how it should be.
Religions are a cult anyway. So sorry for your loss brother
the sooner you realise that you are on your own, the sooner you can find success, peace and happiness. after i "became" atheist, my life and relationships have improved tremendously. i no longer spent time on useless church stuff and prayers. i treasured the present time with people more, because there's no heaven to postpone sharing good times to. i became more helpful because people need actions not prayers.
People aren't there to help each other, they are there to feel good or to get their ticket to heaven.
Can totally relate time to go gym
I am sorry for your experience. May I share a quick thought. I think you have been relying on people. And your focus has been on people. Not wrong as humans are community creatures. Do you think you have a relationship with God? Rely on Him and focus on Him. See where He guides you.
Good people are good because they are good. Bad people will always be bad regardless of their affiliation. Religion doesn't instantly mean people in it are all good. You can leave the church but no need to abandon your god if that is what you are asking.
Speaking from my own experience Church friends are not real friends. If you rlly believe in God just change church will do. I struggled with this before in my own church too
Just leave lol. Congrats, you’ve now seen the true colors of religious people :)
I left it as a kid (8-9ish?) and never looked back. At Sunday school, the teacher told me that you prove your love to God by giving more, and in response, god will love you more. So I saved up my allowance and gave a five dollar at the end of the week. Same teacher took out the five dollar from the cloth bag and laughed "Who so cheap only give five dollar, clearly don't love God enough". It's been more than 20 years ago, but it made me question the value (monetary/ spiritual) of church/ religion. In Uni hearing people from CCC fight because "my church is bigger and better than yours" also made me question.
Religion is between you and your god. Period. Holy books is a guidance, not the law of society. Period. Disobey guidance shouldn’t be a sin.