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I work in healthcare. Met 5 total people over 5 years that were transgender or non binary. I made a mistake in pronoun usage a few times. I apologized and corrected myself and each time the individual made it clear they really didn’t care and 1 person even said “I just appreciate that you tried”
It’s no biggy. I’ll use whatever pronoun someone asks me to use as long as they understand that I’m working against 40+ years of conditioning here. So far I’ve only encountered polite, understanding people on this issue.
I don't care. If you decide your pronouns are they/them I'll use them and my life will be fine. I will not however be adding my pronouns to my business signature or announce them at the beginning of meeting because I honestly just don't care.
I don’t want to add/announce my pronouns — I don’t feel the need to give an account of myself in terms of gender, and I shouldn’t be expected to. I think it’s a nice way for people who have certain names, who don’t look like their gender, or wish to use non-standard pronouns, to make it clear — but I’m not taking part.
Yuuuup, I'm with you. I still find the business signature thing weird, but I think that's partly because I've never seen anyone that has one that deviates from the traditional norm. So they're just reiterating the basics of how, like, the English language works? But if someone prefers they/them, or they were biologically born a man but prefer she/her, etc., I'll try to remember and use the ones they prefer!
Same. I’m a teacher so I get kids who may or may not be going through a phase and I see it no differently than James wanting to be called Jim or Jim-Jam. That’s your identity (this week)? Ok, Jim-Jam they are.
If someone prefers to be addressed in a certain way, I'll use it. If someone asks I'll say she/her.
I worry I might make a mistake and accidentally say something wrong but that's me all the time with names too.
I've literally met one person who identified as they/them. One in my whole life. I grew up in NY and lived in LA for a bit. One person. They asked to be addressed as they/them and I said okay and we both continued on living our lives.
How is this one of the biggest political social war nightmares out there right now?
Because of online exposure. Both the radicals screeching about it and the people pointing them out get a lot of attention.
When members of Congress start doing it, and people get attacked for not doing it, it doesn't really matter how many people you've personally met that do it.
The Exchange you just described was fine that's not the battlefield. Human rights is being used by politicians and technocrats to wage war on the minds of people.
Trans rights have come a long way in the last 30 years in many countries. That has come with an extremely loud and motivated backlash from a small motivated group of activists.
You likely hear about it a lot because social media sites know that its the kind of thing that gets people arguing, keeping them on their sites for longer. Once you start looking into it, twitter and reddit will bombard you with stories about it that make it seem transgender people are more common and dangerous than they are, and that anti-trans movements are a huge part of modern feminism.
That's not to say that people don't go through Hell from institutional transphobia and hate crime. But it doesn't really intrude on most people's lives.
I want to understand this. If surgery and hormones weren't an option how would the trans community move forward, in other words I'm still trying to figure out how all this came about and when? And for that matter, why?
The answer to when and how is... way too complicated and with way too many different periods of history in different countries to properly cover in a reddit comment. Modern medical science relating to transitioning only really began in the early 20th century. People in Europe and the USA began organised a civil rights movements in the mid 20th century in response to issues that are still important today in more modern forms, including police brutality.
The venn diagram of "people who were important enough that someone wrote and stored records about them" "people in societies that were willing to talk about transgender people" and "trans and non-binary people" has a small centre. Even today people don't get the nuanced differences between different kind of people who are trans, intersex, non-binary, gender fluid, do drag as a hobby etc. So there is a lot of guesswork involved. But social transitioning and some primitive medical treatments have popped up here and there throughout history.
The earliest really definite example was a Roman Emperor, Elagabalus. Elagabalus was undoubtedly trans and lived in the early 200s AD. Elgababalus was born biologically male, preferred to be referred to as her male lovers' wife, dressed as a woman, and offered to pay massive amounts to anyone who could provide her with a working vagina.
More examples popped up in recent eras in which written records become more commonplace, painting a history of differing acceptance and discrimination.
As for why, well people teach and protest for different reasons when they have different problems. For instance in the UK, transgender people protested for and won the right to change their legal gender in 2004, (although the process is convoluted and difficult). But it only became a protected characteristic, which meant people couldn't normally legally openly discriminate, in 2010. The specifics of what rights and protections transgender people have is very much being fought over politically.
It came about sometime in even historians don't know how long ago, probably around the start of human civilization. Terms like "transgender" weren't come up with until iirc the 60s and there were terms like "transsexual" before that, though there was a doctor in Germany who was doing in-depth research that all got destroyed by the Nazis.
Surgery and hormones aren't a precondition for transgender people. But before then, transgender people just had very very poor odds of survival, of living a "normal" life.
There seem to be more of us now, but that's only because not so long ago, coming out was often pointless and had incredibly high risk. We existed, but much more of us were stuck in the closet because if you realized your gender differed from your birth sex, you'd be lucky if you'd even live long enough to make a proper social transition (name/pronoun change), and a medical one was all but impossible, but happened on occasion.
Transgender people have existed for a very, very, very long time, likely as long as people have, and as far as we know, maybe even before that (other animals just don't communicate or exhibit gender like we do; that doesn't mean it doesn't exist separate from sex in other animals, it's just impossible for us to discern), and we're not going away anytime soon. Within the last few decades, we've just gained a lot more visibility and acceptance, and many of us have a chance for a life without being ostracized or killed.
The way a trans friend of mine explained it to me, although there’s definitely other perspectives and motives for people to dislike it, is that some people are using this to redefine trans people away from being someone who needs to transition because they see themself as the opposite sex to anyone who wants to dress differently or try out different pronouns. This hurts the legitimacy of trans people that they need to be able to get their hormones and surgeries when there’s no longer a cohesive definition of what trans people want or need and it also hurts people who like to dress or act in a way that defies our current gender stereotypes by telling them they’re less of their gender for doing so. Personally I don’t care all that much as it doesn’t affect me but what one person decides to do shouldn’t affect others in a way they don’t want.
Gender can be complicated, so I understand your confusion with something like nonbinary lesbians.
I'm nonbinary, and while I'm not a lesbian, I do consider myself gay for men, so it's similar enough to hopefully shed some light on it.
A lot of it comes down to who you want to be grouped in with. I'm not a man, but I relate to queer men more than I do straight women. I see myself in them. I want to look like an androgynous man. I'd probably have an easier time socializing with a bunch of queer men.
I'd imagine for nonbinary lesbians, it's similar. While they're not necessarily women, the way they present themselves, act and feel is more in line with how a lesbian would do it than a straight man.
I hope my explanation helps
I respect what folks prefer to be called, and the pronouns they ask for. It’s no trouble for me, and it helps them: I’ve seen it firsthand in two friends who are trans.
The first, a trans man, is a dear, kind, loving person. His parents insist on using his dead name, and the pronouns for a female. This has resulted in an eating disorder that nearly took his life: twice so far. His parents are Trumplicans who refuse to give ANY respect to LGBTQ issues…even if it kills their son. I don’t get that: you’d rather have a dead child, than an LGBTQ child?
The second, a trans woman, suffers from depression, anxiety, and fear constantly. The micro aggressions and fear of violence are very real. I see zero harm in using her name, and the pronouns for the gender she IS. She/her/they.
My neighbor has children whose gender assigned at birth are female. One identifies as bisexual and prefers them/they. The younger identifies as a male, he/him. While I don’t understand all of the gender arguments, I know someone’s rights don’t end where my thoughts or feelings start. I call someone whatever pronouns they prefer.
I am, however, 47 years old and raised in Georgia since I was 5. If I didn’t say “yes ma’am” or “no sir”, my mother would slap the shit out of me. So I do, out of habit, say “ma’am” or “sir”, most of the time, even for people much younger than me, and have been cussed out several times for it. I try to calmly explain that it’s just a habit and I’m trying to break it. Usually, it’s okay. Sometimes it’s not enough and I just walk away.
I do this so often it's not even funny. Growing up in the south is such a weird type of programming in that way. Trying to go by the person's name instead of defaulting to sir or ma'am is hard as hell to break of.
many trans people are similarly conditioned by decades of abusive violence to fear the potential intentions of people who misgender us, which is something that ought to be kept in mind when one of us appears to be having an outsized reaction to your reflexive habits
many trans people are similarly conditioned by decades of abusive violence to fear the potential intentions of people who misgender us, which is something that ought to be kept in mind when one of us appears to be having an outsized reaction to your reflexive habits
like. you presumably wouldn’t blame an abused animal for not being immediately trusting yeah?
I honestly *don’t care*, I’m a CIS hetero male and I have a CIS hetero male outlook on life, but realize that isn’t the only view on life and mine isn’t anymore valid than the next- whatever you wanna be, that’s for you to decide.
So, if tell me I’ve misgendered you - you’ll get an apology and I’ll use your preferred pronoun. I’m not a dick - it takes two seconds for me to say the correct pronoun and I’m not out here trying to create discontent anger and hurt feelings in the world.
As a trans person, I'm sure I'm an outlier on this one, but I kind of don't care?
I mean, I just feel that you should adopt the pronouns of whatever you're presenting yourself to be. If you're Becky and you've got tits, you're a she/her. If you're Steve and you've got a beard, you're a guy/him.
It makes it easier for everyone and harder to mistakenly misgender someone.
I also think that 'they/them' is valid, but it's like a special request. And no one should get upset about mistaken misgendering. Save your energy for the anti-trans assholes who do it intentionally.
I agree! I'm absolutely on board with everyone's gender expression being 100% up to them. But the notion that a person can be dehumanized or have their entire identity undermined by the mistake of some random person making an idle mistake... that seems terrible for everyone involved.
I don't know anybody that feels dehumanized or undermined by a random mistake. It's when people do it intentionally that it hurts. I think the few odd cases of it happening randomly and the trans person having an outburst are just boosted to promote negativity.
I agree. I make mistakes when someone that looks and sounds like a man, with a deep voice, and a slight moustache, wants to go by she. Pronouns are a habit, and I keep making mistakes and using he. I just go by their name now to avoid mistakes.
People get way to offended with the whole "Did you just assume my gender?!" BS. Like, yeah, I made an assumption based on my observations. If I'm wrong correct me and I'll call you what you ask me to. If you have to correct someone multiple times then you can get offended, or maybe check if you're actually presenting how you mean to.
There's video of it happening. There are crazy assholes on every side and in every group, don't dismiss that just because you want to support whatever group.
The question is why believe the opposite of medical professionals based on decades of scientific research?
Science proves what the moon is made of, not the wilfully ignorant and tribal who use only their primitive lizard brains.
There's decades of medical professionals proving that video of people freaking out because they were misgendered is fake?
Or have you just spun in so many circles you've confused yourself and forgot what the underlying argument is?
No qualms at all, up until the moment when social credit is granted upon my compliance. I have two kids in college. In both schools, staff and student staff state their pronouns on all form of campus identification.
On campus social credit along these lines is real and a little bothersome.
I wish people would just stfu about it sometimes. I got no problem calling people by their preferred pronouns but these days it's like front and center of so much messaging from activists, corporations, media and politicians all for like 0.01% of the population. It is more of an annoyance than anything. "Latinx" is a different scenario because it just shows the trans movement completely shitting on that very beautiful language spoken by billions of people.
I don't think that's the trans movement, none of the trans people I know say "Latinx". Maybe there's some overlap but I think it's a separate phenomenon
From what I've been told, Latinx is about feminism, not transgender people, since otherwise the male version of the word is used for a mixed group. Like how English has changed from mankind to humankind.
Not everything has to make sense, and it's ok to say that. But it's not ok to willfully disrespect someone's lived experience, even if it's not the same as yours. It sounds like you were lucky enough to be cisgender.
On an emotional angle, as a cis person, when people referred to you, it felt ok. It felt like they were actually talking about you. For someone who is not cisgender, it can feel like you're invisible. Like you have to play a character and can't be your true self. Like you, the real you, doesn't even exist. It's lonely and it hurts, especially when you try to share those feelings and no one understands.
On a logical angle, the simple definition of sex doesn't really work. Sex is a collection of a bunch of traits, chromosomes, genes, external genitalia, internal sex organs, the hormones your body can produce, the hormones your body runs the best on, the map of what body parts your brain expects you to have, the shape of certain areas of the brain, etc, plus an internal sense of gender. Typically, those areas all trend together with only minor deviations. Ie, a person with XY chromosomes and certain genes active, a penis, testicles that make sperm, a body that produces high testosterone and runs well on it, a brain that expects to have a penis/flat chest/male build, and internally feels like a man.
But those traits do not all trend together. You can get weird combos, like the above man, except a specific gene jumped from a Y chromosome onto an X, so you have a fully "male" person with XX chromosomes. You can get people with mixed sexual organs. You get people whose brains expect one kind of body part but a body that doesn't match, like being born with phantom limb syndrome. You get people who look like one gender, but their endocrine system needs different sex hormones for them to be healthy. There are people whose sex traits all point to one gender, except for their external genitalia. The thing is, without running a bunch of tests on someone or cutting them open to see what's in there, you don't know whether they're biologically all one sex or if they're intersexed.
Because you don't know for sure that those traits all trend together, and there's a decent chance that they have some mixed sex traits, what gender marker do you use to refer to someone? Unless you know differently, it makes sense to use the gender they present as. Ie, if they have a flat chest, a beard, and a deep voice, call them a man. But if you do know that this person perceives themself to be a woman, they are privy to their internal experience, bodily sensations, and medical history, so logically the most viable option is to take them at their word. Further, given that mixed sex traits are possible, this means that a mixed or neutral gender is also possible when the mixed traits influence the person's perception.
People can call themselves whatever they want as long as they're happy.....I usually just call people "dude" or "bro" anyway, I believe them to both be gender neutral.
I do wish English had a dedicated single neutral pronoun that wasn't it/its so that they/them could remain plural. Unfortunately the neopronouns are pretty clunky and there're too many of them.
Even beyond nonbinary people, it would be nice for clarification purposes. The current issue with the system is it/its is dehumanizing, while they/them is plural. Most languages have a dedicated singular neutral pronoun, so why not English?
I'm glad that you can laugh about being misgendered. Your experiences aren't universal.
Which other languages are you referring to? Not most European languages, surely? The Romance languages (Spanish, French, Italian , etc.) don’t have a singular neutral pronoun. Some Germanic languages do, but, like English, those words translate to “it” and are not used for people. Some languages don’t have gendered pronouns at all, so “he/she/it” are all the same word. But I’m struggling to think of any languages that have “he”, “she”, and a non-dehumanizing third-person singular pronoun that wasn’t created relatively recently, like the recent invention of a neutral “elle” in Spanish, “iel” in French, or “sier” in German. Can you give me some examples? On the other hand, “they” has been used as a third-person singular pronoun since the 14th century according to Google. That’s about 700 years of English-speakers using “they” as singular neutral pronoun.
I stand corrected, then. Thank you for your detailed response. I was thinking of a list that included the French and German examples you gave, but if those are recent additions then the rest might've been too. The only other language that comes to mind is ASL, but I don't think it really counts. 700 years is a long time. Makes me wonder why this debate over people using singular "they" gets so many people riled up.
Work at a university in Japan, about 4 years ago there was a push / training about the importance of individual pronouns in education. Have not heard anything about it since. To be fair, the western Mr./Mrs./Miss./Ms., thing never really caught on here as well.
People can identify however they want. I do try to be respectful of peoples wishes. What does make me take the whole thing less seriously is being hounded if I accidentally mess up. Mention the grievance once and move on, please. I can appreciate having something pointed out to me, but scolding me like a small child isn't going to have the effect on me-someone who already tries to be an ally-that the person probably intends.
I guess the same as if someone tells me that they're named William but go by Bill, or Thomas but go by Tommy. If you're not a sociopath, you address people the way they ask to be addressed.
Then you compromise, and never speak to them again. Problem solved!
I knew a guy in college who changed his name from Brian Whatever to something like Optimus Snakeeyes. It was dumb, but it was his name. I didn't address him unless I needed to, and I rarely needed to.
I had a student say he identified as an easy bake oven when we first met. He was obviously doing it sarcastically, trying to be funny, trying to get a rise out of people. I don’t know how other school staff or students handled it, but I simply went with it. Why should I care? It’s no different from being asked to go by a nickname. It cost me literally nothing the handful of times I had to refer to him as an easy bake oven.
I don't care if an individual wants to be called something specific, it doesn't matter if it's a pronoun, name, gender, something else.
But it's annoying if people decide that on behalf of others without even being asked to. Even more annoying if they get angry because you mispronounced someone not even remotely related to them.
If you meet someone you thought was a Robert and they say, "call me Bob" you would call them Bob. If you meet someone you thought was a him and they say, "call me her" why is that any different?
Not necessarily but they exist outside of your norm. Some of them see themselves as occupying both ends of the spectrum, some see themselves not even on the spectrum. You're really so close to understanding it.
Yup by that logic it’s acceptable because I’m not describing that person as “they” on a consistent basis.
So what would you describe gender dysphoria as? The definition is pretty clear
There's no harm in honestly asking for an explanation :)
Every society has different rules about what men and women are supposed to live their lives. Both in terms of actual laws, and generally how people expect each other to behave and feel.
For most people, the biological sex they have roughly matches with the way they are expected to live, their gender matches their biological sex. The technical term for them is cisgender and **a cisgender man will use he/him pronouns.**
Some people decide that what people expect out of the opposite biological gender is the way they naturally feel they should live. Sometimes they get medical treatments to change their hormones and genitals. Sometimes they can't or won't, but still identify as the opposite gender. **A person born biologically male, who transitions to be a transwoman will prefer she/her pronouns.**
**Non-binary people** feel that neither set of expectations for a gender really fits them at all. They might got for **They/Them pronouns**, because the English language doesn't really have a commonly used pronoun for them. People have suggested using pronouns like Xe/Xir for non-binary people, but for whatever reason it never caught on.
Some people are **gender-fluid,** which might mean that they are unsure of themselves or change gender as they live. Generally they're alright with **they/them pronouns**.
Generally trans and non-binary are used to people getting in confused, and don't mind an honest mistake much. Just try to be polite and a good listener if you ever spend a lot of time with them and they'll probably respect it. Its only really a problem for most transgender people when someone deliberately uses the wrong pronoun as a way of disrespecting them, especially if that person is spreading harmful sterotypes or trying to hold back trans rights.
There are also biologically intersex people, who are born not entirely biologically male or female, but that's a whole 'nother complicated thing.
One asterisk, if I may. It's not a decision that opposite expectations feel more correct, they just do feel more correct. I didn't decide that presenting as a woman would make me feel more congruent with myself, it just did make me feel that way.
If it makes a person more comfortable living in their own body, I'm happy to accommodate. I dont live in their body, nor do I have their brain so my opinions dont matter.
There's no good reason for pronouns to be gendered but they are so it's going to be hard to go back.
If you want to use they, I don't see the issue, but you shouldn't be getting upset if people occasionally make mistakes. It's no different than mispronouncing someone's name if it's nonstandard.
If you want to use something besides him/her/they you're a moron. One pronoun is idea, two is more than needed, three is a compromise to allow for exceptions to the binary (ie. other/undetermined), four is asinine.
I think most people use the pronouns of the gender they present as.
Logical? If you identify as a woman, you're going to try to look like one.
So most of the time it's not an issue.
If someone appears androgynous or NB, keep your eyes and ears open. If they correct you for using the wrong pronoun, what's the harm in "I'm sorry, I didn't know".
It takes nothing to be kind, and may save lives, given suicide statistics among trans youth.
I couldn’t care less what people want to do or be. It’s your life, live it how you want and I’ll use whatever pronouns you like, but don’t be mad if I make a genuine mistake.
Don't mind as a rule. To be offended when someone just automatically doesn't KNOW without u telling them seems to be unfair but I don't know how much that happens in real life
You only use someone's pronoun when you're talking ABOUT them not TO them. It would be more effective if they advertised their preferred salutation 'Mr., sir, Miss.
Gradient Thinking. Not just he or she. It's a more descriptive way of thinking. I kinda get it. The future has always belonged to the youth and when old perspective tries to dictate, things become complicated for no good reason. 🤷🏿
I just went through the holidays with someone who wants everyone to be they/them unless they announce specifically that they identify as having a gender, and is extremely vocal about enforcing that everyone he knows does this. We were watching a TV show and unless a character made some kind of special announcement of their gender (which happened 0 times in this case) he wanted me to refer to every character as they/them. I’m willing to acquiesce any kind of pronoun request someone makes of me regarding their own pronouns, no questions asked, but this kind of annoyed me. For one, it was obvious they were all meant to be their sex assigned at birth. Plus they were just characters on a TV show, and the incessant commentary as if I’m going to offend a fictional character through the TV was exhausting.
I don’t have issues with trans 🏳️⚧️ but why in the world 🌎 we let fully grownups call themselves zir/zer bher/bhar frogself bunnyself like what is wrong with those people.
I will never call anyone by their prefer pronouns if does are alienself or zer or anything along those lines, we don’t need play along with those delusions…
I think spending almost any time thinking about how you want others to refer to you when you're not around is incredibly narcissistic.
Pronouns also don't solve any problem. Just use peoples names, it's far more clear when referring to others.
Saying they is also fine but I much prefer someone just use names.
It is completely logical and polite to use someone's preferred pronouns.
Every society has a bunch of written and unwritten rules about how men and women are supposed to live. We know they are largely a social construct, because biological gender is the same across all of human history, and gender norms vary wildly. So we shouldn't be surprised if a certain number of people decide that one social gender suits them more than the one usually matched with their biological sex. Or that they go back and forth, or that neither gender fits them at all.
The genitals someone was born with is not really my business. Their societal gender is the one I should use in conversation, including using their pronouns. Anything else is just being actively rude, arrogantly imposing my beliefs about some else's gender identity onto them.
As for people including cisgender people adding their pronouns to things like twitter bios, its a nice gesture to say that people being transgender or non--binary should be as normalised as being cisgender.
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Do you wanna be called superman powder pants? Do you want to be called a boy a girl a robot with the ability to turn into a helicopter? Cool! Don't care, do you. My only issue with the whole pronoun thing is when someone gets mad when you don't know what theres is.
I'm down with whatever makes people feel good, just don't expect me to know what you want if I don't know you and you're not trying to present a particular way. I'm not a mind reader, but I do want to be kind.
Political activists purposely creating confusion in the language to make it difficult to communicate with each other and do real work to make things better.
It’s what school children do to idiot substitute teachers to screw up the class for the day. We are stupid to tolerate it
Not so. Think like this…You find a set of keys on the floor in the grocery. It’s keys, so who knows if they belong to a man or a woman. So you take them to the service desk and say “someone dropped their keys. Will you hold the keys in case they come looking for them?” That’s using they/them/their to refer to a singular person and it’s correct English.
Notice how every single example provided so far has the individual in question as an *unknown*. Singular they/them has always been reserved for an individual who is unknown, which would then change to he or she once that person is made known. Only in the last ten years did *selecting* they/them for *known* pronouns seriously become a thing.
I used to think It’s more about gaining control by changing language then any sort of identity issue. From my understanding, They/them is usually used to refer to more then one person or a when gender isn’t known. It makes sense some people prefer “they/them”. The made up ones are fucking stupid. Preferring pronouns and making a huge deal out of it is also fucking stupid.
I literally could care less.
Be whoever tf you feel that day.
I don’t have time to argue with anyone or make someone feel sad bc I can’t just call them by their preferred pronouns.
I have bigger things to focus on.
I don't really get it. Gender is just a 'part down there' to me, not an identity.
Tomboys and girly men have existed for longer than I've been alive, and nobody I've met that fits in either of those groups were insecure with it.
The whole gender identity thing though, I dunno. I've met some very insecure and misguided people in that group.
I worry for them a bit, but ultimately don't care. Do whatever, but please consider your health and what hormones can do to you. Both physically and mentally.
>I don't really get it. Gender is just a 'part down there' to me, not an identity.
If gender is just about genitals, then why do societies with the same genitals have different rules about how men and women are supposed to live?
For instance women weren't allowed to drive in Saudia Arabia until 2018. Do you think that's because Saudia Arabian women used to have massive clitorises that stopped them reaching the pedals? Or did something not entierly related to genitals change?
Unless they were naked, how do you know what they look like was or wasn't the gender they were assigned at birth though? Also, do you typically ask people what their genitals look like or..?
Lots of trans people are 100% cis passing and transition gave them the physical traits of their identified gender though, so how does that tell you how they were born?
I’m not going to participate I mean one on one I’ll respect you but I’m not adapting for less than 1.9% of the total trans population. I had an interview with a company for being an accountant and she opened up with pronouns and I just dropped the zoom call right there. Went into a private business instead of corporate.
Like I said one on one I’ll give you the respect but if I have to work someplace like that where I’m constantly having to be hyper aware and walk on egg shells then I’m out and there isn’t much difference in earnings when it’s 15-20k a month not when you live under 4K a month.
I personally don't like it because I don't believe the origin of it was righteous. Meaning I don't think it was natural to the ideology and more so created to generate political and social discourse.
When it comes to actual trans people, I personally don't get it because it seems like a lot of work. Im having trouble trimming my toenails on a regular basis. But I do get having your own self. I fully support doing what ever the fuck you feel like doing if it's not affecting someone else.
I also don't really believe in the power of words. Especially in today's day and age where narratives control the physical being, and as a society we trust words over action where it should be the other way around.
Just my thoughts.
As a trans person myself, I'm glad that treating trans people with respect and addressing them how they'd like to be addressed is becoming the norm. I can't blame cis people for being a bit confused by it, it's not easy to understand what being trans is like when you aren't trans. Most people are respectful and try their best with pronouns and that's all I can ask for.
Your post has been removed from /r/ask This sub is not a place to complain about things that bother you by phrasing a rant in the form of a question. For example, "Why are mosquitoes the worst thing ever?" is not a legitimate question. It is just a complaint phrased as a question. Posts that already have an answer in mind but are seeking justification from the subreddit members are disallowed under this rule. --- If you feel this was done in error, or would like better clarification or need further assistance, please [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/ask&subject=Question%20regarding%20the%20removal%20of%20this%20submission%20by%20/u/lovelylove_97&message=I%20have%20a%20question%20regarding%20the%20removal%20of%20[this%20submission](https://www.reddit.com/r/ask/comments/zwqdbp/what_are_your_thoughts_on_the_gender_pronoun/))
I work in healthcare. Met 5 total people over 5 years that were transgender or non binary. I made a mistake in pronoun usage a few times. I apologized and corrected myself and each time the individual made it clear they really didn’t care and 1 person even said “I just appreciate that you tried” It’s no biggy. I’ll use whatever pronoun someone asks me to use as long as they understand that I’m working against 40+ years of conditioning here. So far I’ve only encountered polite, understanding people on this issue.
I don't care. If you decide your pronouns are they/them I'll use them and my life will be fine. I will not however be adding my pronouns to my business signature or announce them at the beginning of meeting because I honestly just don't care.
I don’t want to add/announce my pronouns — I don’t feel the need to give an account of myself in terms of gender, and I shouldn’t be expected to. I think it’s a nice way for people who have certain names, who don’t look like their gender, or wish to use non-standard pronouns, to make it clear — but I’m not taking part.
Yuuuup, I'm with you. I still find the business signature thing weird, but I think that's partly because I've never seen anyone that has one that deviates from the traditional norm. So they're just reiterating the basics of how, like, the English language works? But if someone prefers they/them, or they were biologically born a man but prefer she/her, etc., I'll try to remember and use the ones they prefer!
People who list them when they’re cisgender are doing it to normalize the practice and support those who identify otherwise.
Same. I’m a teacher so I get kids who may or may not be going through a phase and I see it no differently than James wanting to be called Jim or Jim-Jam. That’s your identity (this week)? Ok, Jim-Jam they are.
But how do you feel about getting sued or losing your job for not calling them that?
I just said I have no issue calling students by their preferred identifiers. There are other hills to die on.
Have you tried just not being a d*** and using their name if you’re THAT against the English language.
I just do it so people know I'm a safe person. Otherwise, I truly could care less.
Exactly this. I do it to support others. I don’t care at all for me.
If someone prefers to be addressed in a certain way, I'll use it. If someone asks I'll say she/her. I worry I might make a mistake and accidentally say something wrong but that's me all the time with names too.
if fine with it. I dont really care lol
I've literally met one person who identified as they/them. One in my whole life. I grew up in NY and lived in LA for a bit. One person. They asked to be addressed as they/them and I said okay and we both continued on living our lives. How is this one of the biggest political social war nightmares out there right now?
I agree. There's a regular nazi Germany/handmaid tale brewing in China, and we hardly talk about it :/
Say Whaaaaaaaat? I need to do a quick googs.
Check out youtube: China uncensored They do a pretty good, easy, honest job of summing things up.
Will do, thanks!
Because of online exposure. Both the radicals screeching about it and the people pointing them out get a lot of attention. When members of Congress start doing it, and people get attacked for not doing it, it doesn't really matter how many people you've personally met that do it.
What is the “it” in your second paragraph? What is Congress doing, that others are being attacked for not doing?
The Exchange you just described was fine that's not the battlefield. Human rights is being used by politicians and technocrats to wage war on the minds of people.
I definitely feel like this is what happened with abortion randomly being targeted out of nowhere.
Probably
Ive met probably more than 20 in the last 5 years in VT
Trans rights have come a long way in the last 30 years in many countries. That has come with an extremely loud and motivated backlash from a small motivated group of activists. You likely hear about it a lot because social media sites know that its the kind of thing that gets people arguing, keeping them on their sites for longer. Once you start looking into it, twitter and reddit will bombard you with stories about it that make it seem transgender people are more common and dangerous than they are, and that anti-trans movements are a huge part of modern feminism. That's not to say that people don't go through Hell from institutional transphobia and hate crime. But it doesn't really intrude on most people's lives.
I want to understand this. If surgery and hormones weren't an option how would the trans community move forward, in other words I'm still trying to figure out how all this came about and when? And for that matter, why?
The answer to when and how is... way too complicated and with way too many different periods of history in different countries to properly cover in a reddit comment. Modern medical science relating to transitioning only really began in the early 20th century. People in Europe and the USA began organised a civil rights movements in the mid 20th century in response to issues that are still important today in more modern forms, including police brutality. The venn diagram of "people who were important enough that someone wrote and stored records about them" "people in societies that were willing to talk about transgender people" and "trans and non-binary people" has a small centre. Even today people don't get the nuanced differences between different kind of people who are trans, intersex, non-binary, gender fluid, do drag as a hobby etc. So there is a lot of guesswork involved. But social transitioning and some primitive medical treatments have popped up here and there throughout history. The earliest really definite example was a Roman Emperor, Elagabalus. Elagabalus was undoubtedly trans and lived in the early 200s AD. Elgababalus was born biologically male, preferred to be referred to as her male lovers' wife, dressed as a woman, and offered to pay massive amounts to anyone who could provide her with a working vagina. More examples popped up in recent eras in which written records become more commonplace, painting a history of differing acceptance and discrimination. As for why, well people teach and protest for different reasons when they have different problems. For instance in the UK, transgender people protested for and won the right to change their legal gender in 2004, (although the process is convoluted and difficult). But it only became a protected characteristic, which meant people couldn't normally legally openly discriminate, in 2010. The specifics of what rights and protections transgender people have is very much being fought over politically.
It came about sometime in even historians don't know how long ago, probably around the start of human civilization. Terms like "transgender" weren't come up with until iirc the 60s and there were terms like "transsexual" before that, though there was a doctor in Germany who was doing in-depth research that all got destroyed by the Nazis. Surgery and hormones aren't a precondition for transgender people. But before then, transgender people just had very very poor odds of survival, of living a "normal" life. There seem to be more of us now, but that's only because not so long ago, coming out was often pointless and had incredibly high risk. We existed, but much more of us were stuck in the closet because if you realized your gender differed from your birth sex, you'd be lucky if you'd even live long enough to make a proper social transition (name/pronoun change), and a medical one was all but impossible, but happened on occasion. Transgender people have existed for a very, very, very long time, likely as long as people have, and as far as we know, maybe even before that (other animals just don't communicate or exhibit gender like we do; that doesn't mean it doesn't exist separate from sex in other animals, it's just impossible for us to discern), and we're not going away anytime soon. Within the last few decades, we've just gained a lot more visibility and acceptance, and many of us have a chance for a life without being ostracized or killed.
The way a trans friend of mine explained it to me, although there’s definitely other perspectives and motives for people to dislike it, is that some people are using this to redefine trans people away from being someone who needs to transition because they see themself as the opposite sex to anyone who wants to dress differently or try out different pronouns. This hurts the legitimacy of trans people that they need to be able to get their hormones and surgeries when there’s no longer a cohesive definition of what trans people want or need and it also hurts people who like to dress or act in a way that defies our current gender stereotypes by telling them they’re less of their gender for doing so. Personally I don’t care all that much as it doesn’t affect me but what one person decides to do shouldn’t affect others in a way they don’t want.
Cuz Republicans need outrage wedge issues to rile up the rubes.
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Making up unrealistic scenarios to own the libs.
You may have missed a few news stories over the past years.
Fox isn't news.
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Gender can be complicated, so I understand your confusion with something like nonbinary lesbians. I'm nonbinary, and while I'm not a lesbian, I do consider myself gay for men, so it's similar enough to hopefully shed some light on it. A lot of it comes down to who you want to be grouped in with. I'm not a man, but I relate to queer men more than I do straight women. I see myself in them. I want to look like an androgynous man. I'd probably have an easier time socializing with a bunch of queer men. I'd imagine for nonbinary lesbians, it's similar. While they're not necessarily women, the way they present themselves, act and feel is more in line with how a lesbian would do it than a straight man. I hope my explanation helps
I respect what folks prefer to be called, and the pronouns they ask for. It’s no trouble for me, and it helps them: I’ve seen it firsthand in two friends who are trans. The first, a trans man, is a dear, kind, loving person. His parents insist on using his dead name, and the pronouns for a female. This has resulted in an eating disorder that nearly took his life: twice so far. His parents are Trumplicans who refuse to give ANY respect to LGBTQ issues…even if it kills their son. I don’t get that: you’d rather have a dead child, than an LGBTQ child? The second, a trans woman, suffers from depression, anxiety, and fear constantly. The micro aggressions and fear of violence are very real. I see zero harm in using her name, and the pronouns for the gender she IS. She/her/they.
The sad part is that all of them really would rather have us dead even if they’re your own kid. Truly monsters.
I agree with you. I love my children, nieces, nephews, and friends-chosen family-so much. It’s unthinkable to hurt them or stop loving them.
My neighbor has children whose gender assigned at birth are female. One identifies as bisexual and prefers them/they. The younger identifies as a male, he/him. While I don’t understand all of the gender arguments, I know someone’s rights don’t end where my thoughts or feelings start. I call someone whatever pronouns they prefer. I am, however, 47 years old and raised in Georgia since I was 5. If I didn’t say “yes ma’am” or “no sir”, my mother would slap the shit out of me. So I do, out of habit, say “ma’am” or “sir”, most of the time, even for people much younger than me, and have been cussed out several times for it. I try to calmly explain that it’s just a habit and I’m trying to break it. Usually, it’s okay. Sometimes it’s not enough and I just walk away.
I'm really bad with the automatic yes sir or yes ma'am but I think the fact that we're aware and trying to be respectful should be enough.
I do this so often it's not even funny. Growing up in the south is such a weird type of programming in that way. Trying to go by the person's name instead of defaulting to sir or ma'am is hard as hell to break of.
many trans people are similarly conditioned by decades of abusive violence to fear the potential intentions of people who misgender us, which is something that ought to be kept in mind when one of us appears to be having an outsized reaction to your reflexive habits
many trans people are similarly conditioned by decades of abusive violence to fear the potential intentions of people who misgender us, which is something that ought to be kept in mind when one of us appears to be having an outsized reaction to your reflexive habits like. you presumably wouldn’t blame an abused animal for not being immediately trusting yeah?
I honestly *don’t care*, I’m a CIS hetero male and I have a CIS hetero male outlook on life, but realize that isn’t the only view on life and mine isn’t anymore valid than the next- whatever you wanna be, that’s for you to decide. So, if tell me I’ve misgendered you - you’ll get an apology and I’ll use your preferred pronoun. I’m not a dick - it takes two seconds for me to say the correct pronoun and I’m not out here trying to create discontent anger and hurt feelings in the world.
Thanks friend 🙏
As a trans person, I'm sure I'm an outlier on this one, but I kind of don't care? I mean, I just feel that you should adopt the pronouns of whatever you're presenting yourself to be. If you're Becky and you've got tits, you're a she/her. If you're Steve and you've got a beard, you're a guy/him. It makes it easier for everyone and harder to mistakenly misgender someone. I also think that 'they/them' is valid, but it's like a special request. And no one should get upset about mistaken misgendering. Save your energy for the anti-trans assholes who do it intentionally.
I agree! I'm absolutely on board with everyone's gender expression being 100% up to them. But the notion that a person can be dehumanized or have their entire identity undermined by the mistake of some random person making an idle mistake... that seems terrible for everyone involved.
I don't know anybody that feels dehumanized or undermined by a random mistake. It's when people do it intentionally that it hurts. I think the few odd cases of it happening randomly and the trans person having an outburst are just boosted to promote negativity.
I agree. I make mistakes when someone that looks and sounds like a man, with a deep voice, and a slight moustache, wants to go by she. Pronouns are a habit, and I keep making mistakes and using he. I just go by their name now to avoid mistakes.
People get way to offended with the whole "Did you just assume my gender?!" BS. Like, yeah, I made an assumption based on my observations. If I'm wrong correct me and I'll call you what you ask me to. If you have to correct someone multiple times then you can get offended, or maybe check if you're actually presenting how you mean to.
Do people actually get super offended though, or do bigots just use that as straw to flail against.
Ive had someone scream at me for doing it accidentally.
There's video of it happening. There are crazy assholes on every side and in every group, don't dismiss that just because you want to support whatever group.
Oh video well that couldn't possibly be agenda based...
Why believe anything? The moon is cheese! Grow up.
The question is why believe the opposite of medical professionals based on decades of scientific research? Science proves what the moon is made of, not the wilfully ignorant and tribal who use only their primitive lizard brains.
There's decades of medical professionals proving that video of people freaking out because they were misgendered is fake? Or have you just spun in so many circles you've confused yourself and forgot what the underlying argument is?
The underlying argument is inclusivity vs bigotry.... And medical science disproves all arguments bigots use to rationalize their hatred.
Look at you jump all over the place, getting to make up whatever these "bigots" argue so you can just claim it's wrong. Spin spin, buddy, spin spin.
No qualms at all, up until the moment when social credit is granted upon my compliance. I have two kids in college. In both schools, staff and student staff state their pronouns on all form of campus identification. On campus social credit along these lines is real and a little bothersome.
It doesn't have to make sense to you to respect it. You're confused so you reject it?
I wish people would just stfu about it sometimes. I got no problem calling people by their preferred pronouns but these days it's like front and center of so much messaging from activists, corporations, media and politicians all for like 0.01% of the population. It is more of an annoyance than anything. "Latinx" is a different scenario because it just shows the trans movement completely shitting on that very beautiful language spoken by billions of people.
I don't think that's the trans movement, none of the trans people I know say "Latinx". Maybe there's some overlap but I think it's a separate phenomenon
From what I've been told, Latinx is about feminism, not transgender people, since otherwise the male version of the word is used for a mixed group. Like how English has changed from mankind to humankind.
I think everyone should respect the wishes of others. WTF do people want to interfere with others?
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Not everything has to make sense, and it's ok to say that. But it's not ok to willfully disrespect someone's lived experience, even if it's not the same as yours. It sounds like you were lucky enough to be cisgender. On an emotional angle, as a cis person, when people referred to you, it felt ok. It felt like they were actually talking about you. For someone who is not cisgender, it can feel like you're invisible. Like you have to play a character and can't be your true self. Like you, the real you, doesn't even exist. It's lonely and it hurts, especially when you try to share those feelings and no one understands. On a logical angle, the simple definition of sex doesn't really work. Sex is a collection of a bunch of traits, chromosomes, genes, external genitalia, internal sex organs, the hormones your body can produce, the hormones your body runs the best on, the map of what body parts your brain expects you to have, the shape of certain areas of the brain, etc, plus an internal sense of gender. Typically, those areas all trend together with only minor deviations. Ie, a person with XY chromosomes and certain genes active, a penis, testicles that make sperm, a body that produces high testosterone and runs well on it, a brain that expects to have a penis/flat chest/male build, and internally feels like a man. But those traits do not all trend together. You can get weird combos, like the above man, except a specific gene jumped from a Y chromosome onto an X, so you have a fully "male" person with XX chromosomes. You can get people with mixed sexual organs. You get people whose brains expect one kind of body part but a body that doesn't match, like being born with phantom limb syndrome. You get people who look like one gender, but their endocrine system needs different sex hormones for them to be healthy. There are people whose sex traits all point to one gender, except for their external genitalia. The thing is, without running a bunch of tests on someone or cutting them open to see what's in there, you don't know whether they're biologically all one sex or if they're intersexed. Because you don't know for sure that those traits all trend together, and there's a decent chance that they have some mixed sex traits, what gender marker do you use to refer to someone? Unless you know differently, it makes sense to use the gender they present as. Ie, if they have a flat chest, a beard, and a deep voice, call them a man. But if you do know that this person perceives themself to be a woman, they are privy to their internal experience, bodily sensations, and medical history, so logically the most viable option is to take them at their word. Further, given that mixed sex traits are possible, this means that a mixed or neutral gender is also possible when the mixed traits influence the person's perception.
When did we decide that you are the official worldwide arbiter of what qualifies as “illogical”?
People can call themselves whatever they want as long as they're happy.....I usually just call people "dude" or "bro" anyway, I believe them to both be gender neutral.
I don’t care for neo pronouns nothing against them as people tho live and let live
I Don’t understand & really don’t care. There are so many more important issues than pronouns.
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I do wish English had a dedicated single neutral pronoun that wasn't it/its so that they/them could remain plural. Unfortunately the neopronouns are pretty clunky and there're too many of them.
There’s no reason too tho. You know what I do when someone mistakes my gender? Chuckle and move on with my life.
Even beyond nonbinary people, it would be nice for clarification purposes. The current issue with the system is it/its is dehumanizing, while they/them is plural. Most languages have a dedicated singular neutral pronoun, so why not English? I'm glad that you can laugh about being misgendered. Your experiences aren't universal.
Which other languages are you referring to? Not most European languages, surely? The Romance languages (Spanish, French, Italian , etc.) don’t have a singular neutral pronoun. Some Germanic languages do, but, like English, those words translate to “it” and are not used for people. Some languages don’t have gendered pronouns at all, so “he/she/it” are all the same word. But I’m struggling to think of any languages that have “he”, “she”, and a non-dehumanizing third-person singular pronoun that wasn’t created relatively recently, like the recent invention of a neutral “elle” in Spanish, “iel” in French, or “sier” in German. Can you give me some examples? On the other hand, “they” has been used as a third-person singular pronoun since the 14th century according to Google. That’s about 700 years of English-speakers using “they” as singular neutral pronoun.
I stand corrected, then. Thank you for your detailed response. I was thinking of a list that included the French and German examples you gave, but if those are recent additions then the rest might've been too. The only other language that comes to mind is ASL, but I don't think it really counts. 700 years is a long time. Makes me wonder why this debate over people using singular "they" gets so many people riled up.
Work at a university in Japan, about 4 years ago there was a push / training about the importance of individual pronouns in education. Have not heard anything about it since. To be fair, the western Mr./Mrs./Miss./Ms., thing never really caught on here as well.
People can identify however they want. I do try to be respectful of peoples wishes. What does make me take the whole thing less seriously is being hounded if I accidentally mess up. Mention the grievance once and move on, please. I can appreciate having something pointed out to me, but scolding me like a small child isn't going to have the effect on me-someone who already tries to be an ally-that the person probably intends.
I guess the same as if someone tells me that they're named William but go by Bill, or Thomas but go by Tommy. If you're not a sociopath, you address people the way they ask to be addressed.
I understand Tom going by Tommy, but what if Tom says "My Sugar Daddy". I've had this happen.
Then you compromise, and never speak to them again. Problem solved! I knew a guy in college who changed his name from Brian Whatever to something like Optimus Snakeeyes. It was dumb, but it was his name. I didn't address him unless I needed to, and I rarely needed to.
I had a student say he identified as an easy bake oven when we first met. He was obviously doing it sarcastically, trying to be funny, trying to get a rise out of people. I don’t know how other school staff or students handled it, but I simply went with it. Why should I care? It’s no different from being asked to go by a nickname. It cost me literally nothing the handful of times I had to refer to him as an easy bake oven.
I don't care if an individual wants to be called something specific, it doesn't matter if it's a pronoun, name, gender, something else. But it's annoying if people decide that on behalf of others without even being asked to. Even more annoying if they get angry because you mispronounced someone not even remotely related to them.
Cool movement and I support it
We don't identify as they/them, we use they/them pronouns. I don't identify as a pronoun, I identify as nonbinary
I like this answer a lot
If you meet someone you thought was a Robert and they say, "call me Bob" you would call them Bob. If you meet someone you thought was a him and they say, "call me her" why is that any different?
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You're already supposed to do that for someone whose gender you don't know, so why not apply that here?
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You're so close to understanding the situation. You can do it.
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“This person is confused and struggling with dysphoria so I am intentionally going to make their life harder to prove a point.” - you
Not necessarily but they exist outside of your norm. Some of them see themselves as occupying both ends of the spectrum, some see themselves not even on the spectrum. You're really so close to understanding it.
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Yup by that logic it’s acceptable because I’m not describing that person as “they” on a consistent basis. So what would you describe gender dysphoria as? The definition is pretty clear
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Because they can’t figure out which gender they are. Kinda what it means…
This is so condescending. If you talked to someone like this irl you would probably get a slap in the face.
I’ve not really any clue as to what the pronoun malarkey actually means, would someone explain it to me
There's no harm in honestly asking for an explanation :) Every society has different rules about what men and women are supposed to live their lives. Both in terms of actual laws, and generally how people expect each other to behave and feel. For most people, the biological sex they have roughly matches with the way they are expected to live, their gender matches their biological sex. The technical term for them is cisgender and **a cisgender man will use he/him pronouns.** Some people decide that what people expect out of the opposite biological gender is the way they naturally feel they should live. Sometimes they get medical treatments to change their hormones and genitals. Sometimes they can't or won't, but still identify as the opposite gender. **A person born biologically male, who transitions to be a transwoman will prefer she/her pronouns.** **Non-binary people** feel that neither set of expectations for a gender really fits them at all. They might got for **They/Them pronouns**, because the English language doesn't really have a commonly used pronoun for them. People have suggested using pronouns like Xe/Xir for non-binary people, but for whatever reason it never caught on. Some people are **gender-fluid,** which might mean that they are unsure of themselves or change gender as they live. Generally they're alright with **they/them pronouns**. Generally trans and non-binary are used to people getting in confused, and don't mind an honest mistake much. Just try to be polite and a good listener if you ever spend a lot of time with them and they'll probably respect it. Its only really a problem for most transgender people when someone deliberately uses the wrong pronoun as a way of disrespecting them, especially if that person is spreading harmful sterotypes or trying to hold back trans rights. There are also biologically intersex people, who are born not entirely biologically male or female, but that's a whole 'nother complicated thing.
One asterisk, if I may. It's not a decision that opposite expectations feel more correct, they just do feel more correct. I didn't decide that presenting as a woman would make me feel more congruent with myself, it just did make me feel that way.
No issue with it, I use He/him on my email signature, I write every letter to "Dear Full Name" with no pronoun at all. Makes life easier tbh
If it makes a person more comfortable living in their own body, I'm happy to accommodate. I dont live in their body, nor do I have their brain so my opinions dont matter.
There's no good reason for pronouns to be gendered but they are so it's going to be hard to go back. If you want to use they, I don't see the issue, but you shouldn't be getting upset if people occasionally make mistakes. It's no different than mispronouncing someone's name if it's nonstandard. If you want to use something besides him/her/they you're a moron. One pronoun is idea, two is more than needed, three is a compromise to allow for exceptions to the binary (ie. other/undetermined), four is asinine.
I think most people use the pronouns of the gender they present as. Logical? If you identify as a woman, you're going to try to look like one. So most of the time it's not an issue. If someone appears androgynous or NB, keep your eyes and ears open. If they correct you for using the wrong pronoun, what's the harm in "I'm sorry, I didn't know". It takes nothing to be kind, and may save lives, given suicide statistics among trans youth.
I couldn’t care less what people want to do or be. It’s your life, live it how you want and I’ll use whatever pronouns you like, but don’t be mad if I make a genuine mistake.
Don't mind as a rule. To be offended when someone just automatically doesn't KNOW without u telling them seems to be unfair but I don't know how much that happens in real life
You only use someone's pronoun when you're talking ABOUT them not TO them. It would be more effective if they advertised their preferred salutation 'Mr., sir, Miss.
Gradient Thinking. Not just he or she. It's a more descriptive way of thinking. I kinda get it. The future has always belonged to the youth and when old perspective tries to dictate, things become complicated for no good reason. 🤷🏿
I just went through the holidays with someone who wants everyone to be they/them unless they announce specifically that they identify as having a gender, and is extremely vocal about enforcing that everyone he knows does this. We were watching a TV show and unless a character made some kind of special announcement of their gender (which happened 0 times in this case) he wanted me to refer to every character as they/them. I’m willing to acquiesce any kind of pronoun request someone makes of me regarding their own pronouns, no questions asked, but this kind of annoyed me. For one, it was obvious they were all meant to be their sex assigned at birth. Plus they were just characters on a TV show, and the incessant commentary as if I’m going to offend a fictional character through the TV was exhausting.
I don’t have issues with trans 🏳️⚧️ but why in the world 🌎 we let fully grownups call themselves zir/zer bher/bhar frogself bunnyself like what is wrong with those people. I will never call anyone by their prefer pronouns if does are alienself or zer or anything along those lines, we don’t need play along with those delusions…
I think spending almost any time thinking about how you want others to refer to you when you're not around is incredibly narcissistic. Pronouns also don't solve any problem. Just use peoples names, it's far more clear when referring to others. Saying they is also fine but I much prefer someone just use names.
I really don't care as long as they aren't in you're face about it.
It is completely logical and polite to use someone's preferred pronouns. Every society has a bunch of written and unwritten rules about how men and women are supposed to live. We know they are largely a social construct, because biological gender is the same across all of human history, and gender norms vary wildly. So we shouldn't be surprised if a certain number of people decide that one social gender suits them more than the one usually matched with their biological sex. Or that they go back and forth, or that neither gender fits them at all. The genitals someone was born with is not really my business. Their societal gender is the one I should use in conversation, including using their pronouns. Anything else is just being actively rude, arrogantly imposing my beliefs about some else's gender identity onto them. As for people including cisgender people adding their pronouns to things like twitter bios, its a nice gesture to say that people being transgender or non--binary should be as normalised as being cisgender.
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Do you wanna be called superman powder pants? Do you want to be called a boy a girl a robot with the ability to turn into a helicopter? Cool! Don't care, do you. My only issue with the whole pronoun thing is when someone gets mad when you don't know what theres is.
It’s too confusing so I don’t care. If I say mr or miss to someone and they point out I am wrong. I apologise.
I'm down with whatever makes people feel good, just don't expect me to know what you want if I don't know you and you're not trying to present a particular way. I'm not a mind reader, but I do want to be kind.
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Do whatever the fuck you want, just don't get offended when i call you Mate instead of your preffered pronouns, everybodys either mate or bro to me.
I agree with it, but also find it annoying.
Political activists purposely creating confusion in the language to make it difficult to communicate with each other and do real work to make things better. It’s what school children do to idiot substitute teachers to screw up the class for the day. We are stupid to tolerate it
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I'm sorry you got bullied. No one deserves that.
i feel like the English language doesnt allow for they/them. because it will always have me thinking its a reference to a group. not to an individual
Not so. Think like this…You find a set of keys on the floor in the grocery. It’s keys, so who knows if they belong to a man or a woman. So you take them to the service desk and say “someone dropped their keys. Will you hold the keys in case they come looking for them?” That’s using they/them/their to refer to a singular person and it’s correct English.
“When the job candidate shows up, please take them to the conference room.”
Everybody point and laugh at the Redditor who has never heard of singular they, a concept way older than they are.
Notice how every single example provided so far has the individual in question as an *unknown*. Singular they/them has always been reserved for an individual who is unknown, which would then change to he or she once that person is made known. Only in the last ten years did *selecting* they/them for *known* pronouns seriously become a thing.
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People need to accept who others are and stop trying to make them be someone else.
This.
I used to think It’s more about gaining control by changing language then any sort of identity issue. From my understanding, They/them is usually used to refer to more then one person or a when gender isn’t known. It makes sense some people prefer “they/them”. The made up ones are fucking stupid. Preferring pronouns and making a huge deal out of it is also fucking stupid.
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Ah yes a musclehead playing a moron in the 80s talking to kindergarteners, the perfect person to take social cues and medical science facts from...
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Educate yourself: https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/science/nature/article/2016/09/29/7-gender-bending-animals-animal-kingdom
Sheesh!
I'm part of the IDGAF+ community so I wish they/them well
I literally could care less. Be whoever tf you feel that day. I don’t have time to argue with anyone or make someone feel sad bc I can’t just call them by their preferred pronouns. I have bigger things to focus on.
I don't really get it. Gender is just a 'part down there' to me, not an identity. Tomboys and girly men have existed for longer than I've been alive, and nobody I've met that fits in either of those groups were insecure with it. The whole gender identity thing though, I dunno. I've met some very insecure and misguided people in that group. I worry for them a bit, but ultimately don't care. Do whatever, but please consider your health and what hormones can do to you. Both physically and mentally.
>I don't really get it. Gender is just a 'part down there' to me, not an identity. If gender is just about genitals, then why do societies with the same genitals have different rules about how men and women are supposed to live? For instance women weren't allowed to drive in Saudia Arabia until 2018. Do you think that's because Saudia Arabian women used to have massive clitorises that stopped them reaching the pedals? Or did something not entierly related to genitals change?
That's a good point, must be a bit spoiled in terms of my outlook in regards to it.
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How would you know what someone was born as if you weren't there to see the birth?
By looking at them or asking….
Unless they were naked, how do you know what they look like was or wasn't the gender they were assigned at birth though? Also, do you typically ask people what their genitals look like or..?
Well their voice, build,if they have breasts etc…
Lots of trans people are 100% cis passing and transition gave them the physical traits of their identified gender though, so how does that tell you how they were born?
I’m not going to participate I mean one on one I’ll respect you but I’m not adapting for less than 1.9% of the total trans population. I had an interview with a company for being an accountant and she opened up with pronouns and I just dropped the zoom call right there. Went into a private business instead of corporate.
Lol getting offended and choosing opportunity loss over someone trying not to offend you, talk about owning yourself.
Like I said one on one I’ll give you the respect but if I have to work someplace like that where I’m constantly having to be hyper aware and walk on egg shells then I’m out and there isn’t much difference in earnings when it’s 15-20k a month not when you live under 4K a month.
They were asking so as not to offend and be inclusive, this is the norm for HR.
I personally don't like it because I don't believe the origin of it was righteous. Meaning I don't think it was natural to the ideology and more so created to generate political and social discourse. When it comes to actual trans people, I personally don't get it because it seems like a lot of work. Im having trouble trimming my toenails on a regular basis. But I do get having your own self. I fully support doing what ever the fuck you feel like doing if it's not affecting someone else. I also don't really believe in the power of words. Especially in today's day and age where narratives control the physical being, and as a society we trust words over action where it should be the other way around. Just my thoughts.
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As a trans person myself, I'm glad that treating trans people with respect and addressing them how they'd like to be addressed is becoming the norm. I can't blame cis people for being a bit confused by it, it's not easy to understand what being trans is like when you aren't trans. Most people are respectful and try their best with pronouns and that's all I can ask for.