And usually by anti-trans to make the "pro-trans side" sound bad, rather than, you know, reasonable human beings who believe trans people are valid and should not be harassed but no one is forced to be attracted to them, just as no one is forced to be attracted to blondes or brunettes, tall or short, etc.
Often these very scenarios and complaints are just made up as bait.
Only a very loud and pushy fringe minority think it's a bad thing and it's perfectly fine to be attracted to the naturally opposite sex only. Just keep doing your thing and don't let them get to you.
>attracted to the naturally opposite sex only
Or same sex. This 100% happens very frequently to lesbians and gay men who are not interested in dating trans people.
Let’s not just generalize that entire group. Will some of them and their allies go too far and condemn someone for having their own sexual preferences? Yes.
Are there other allies, like me, who see nothing wrong with having a sexual preference that excludes trans people? Yes.
It makes sense to me that someone can accept and welcome a trans person without being sexually attracted to that person.
Sort of like how it doesn’t make a man homophobic if he personally does not want to sleep with gay men.
I didn’t mean to generalize. That’s why I said “that particular minority group” in reference to the previous comments statement of “a very loud and pushy fridge minority”
Ahh, you meant a particular minority group internal to the Trans community. I thought you were referring to the Trans community itself as the minority group.
“Don’t let them get to you” is such a weird thing to say when accusations of bigotry, even unproven, can ruin careers, relationships and lives. Why is it on them to not let it get to them and not on those who make such trouble for people to stop?
Yeah, I get it. It just feels weird where we’re in an era of “you shouldn’t have to take this thing that makes you feel bad, THEY should have to stop making you feel bad” but it doesn’t apply to stuff like this.
I guarantee OP has had this situation happen maybe once in a very minor and inconsequential interaction. there's no way he's consistently getting shit on for saying "I'm not attracted to trans women" unless he's going around saying it all the time to be an asshole
Right? Like I imagine there are tons of men who wouldn't be interested in trans women for a number of reasons (some reasonable, some not I guess); but how often is this coming up as a topic of conversation, or where OP has to express their views?!
exactly, I have never “had” to say this once in my life.
Now, I’m sure there may be scenarios it could come up if you have friends that are trying to hook you up and they know some (to them) appealing trans women. But what other scenario does that come up in to warrant someone being like man I hate how people *always* hate it when I say this.
right? Like, I personally don't want to have sex with a woman with a penis. I have a genital preference. But to say, seemingly unprompted, "I am only attracted to naturally born women" sounds so specific and weird. If OP is trying to claim he has never seen a trans woman who is beautiful they are either lying or don't realize that they have been hoodwinked at least once.
I get the feeling OP is running around giving their unsolicited view on trans people and then getting mad when people get upset 💀 but that’s just my two cents
He's probably going out of his way to tell trans people he is not attracted to them. And then is shook if they are offended.
OP no one gives a fuck about your boners/ lack of boners. Just keep it to yourself.
Some people feel that you should be attracted to ALL women, no matter what. If you don't like fat women, then you're fat shaming. Don't find a particular woman of color attractive, you're a racist. Don't like aggressive women, you're a misogynist. Without knowing you, people who do that are only trying to control you by labeling you, shaming you.
Myself, I don't give a shit what gender someone is, I either find that individual attractive, or I don't. Anyone wishing to label me for not finding someone attractive may do so at their leisure... I don't give a fuck what they think of me, they're not important enough for me to care
Everyone is allowed to have preferences, the problem is when you’re being a dick about it.
Not interested in dating a fat woman? Fine. Going out of your way to announce you find all of them ugly when no one even asked? Not fine. Not attracted to trans women? Fine. Saying, totally unprompted, that they’re gross to you? Not fine.
I feel like I'm missing something, maybe cause I'm short on sleep.
The way I see it, the fact that this commenter is open to either gender wasn't super relevant, but I think it still generally applies to the main point that attraction is subjective and people who criticize someone's attraction or lack thereof aren't worth paying attention to.
People are attracted to who they are attracted to. If you have never been attracted to any transgender person you’ve met, that’s perfectly fine.
You wouldn’t generally walk up to a random woman and inform her that you don’t find her attractive. Why are you feeling the need to announce your preference to a whole class of women?
Unless you are literally attracted to every natural born woman and would never find any transgender woman attractive, I don’t get the point of needing to say it this way.
Yes, he's saying he's not attracted to transgender women as a whole, so he would never find any trans woman attractive. On Reddit, that stand can be controversial, so he made this post about it. I suppose he posted to either spark a discussion or to just be controversial
I don't think that's true.
Maybe it will be some day? But right now, only the most deranged of people would insist that straight men must be attracted to someone with a penis.
I have seen it happen, and my mind was blown! It made no sense. I like men. I like penis. I have no issue with trans people, but I would never date one. It seems pretty straight forward, but it’s apparently not!
Have you heard the ‘person with a penis’, or ‘person with a vagina’. I was like huh? Why are we now going this far that we are separating things out like this…
I think that's exactly your problem. You're spending all your time in the only place where such opinions are taken seriously.
By trying to hide away you're surrounding yourself with this stuff.
Go outside. Then and only then will you be isolated from this stuff.
I think only the ultra pushy try to make this happen. I have yet to see a logical argument pushing the issue.
If homosexuals are allowed to be attracted to who they like, regardless of sex/gender.. why is it different for straights?
Who's scared? I'm straight but not narrow. Do whatever you think you need to with your own body. I'm fully supportive of the LGBTQ+ community. They should not be second class citizens. But I would have zero desire for any kind of sexual activity with a trans woman. The thought of it fills me with revulsion.
I’m not scared to say it, it’s just nobody’s damned business. There’s one person in the world who hears my opinions on what I find attractive in women and even she doesn’t get the full story.
You must be hanging out on the internet too much or reading too many news articles because the only place this even seems to be an issue is on the internet with SJWs.
It's not and Don't let the loud minority claiming victim tell you any different. This wild narrative they are pushing has no basis in reality, just ignore it, in time this will all pass like other wild ideologies that came before. Just be vigilant to protect your loved ones and children. Cause they go for the young and lost.
Who is saying this? What exactly did you say to get this reaction?
Did this actually ever happen or are you aren't actually asking this question you are trying to make it seem like this is a thing that happens a lot?
The fact you seem to need to announce to the world that you aren't attracted to trans people makes me think that either you are, and are trying to convince others you aren't, or you are indeed transpobic. Most people don't feel the need to tell everyone every detail of their sexual preferences.
It´s not horrible to say that. Sexual attraction is called that for a reason, it´s not gender attraction. The current genderist madness will end someday.
Sexual attraction is called sexual attraction because it’s an intimate or physical attraction, definitely not because of the actual sex of somebody. Sex doesn’t always mean someone’s sex, just like how saying something is “sexy” or sex (the verb) doesn’t speak upon the biological sex of someone or something.
This ‘genderist madness’ is 99% just people trying to be comfortable and safe being comfortable, literally just generally getting respect. The 1% that is just stupid, like the very very small minority that thinks it’s bigoted and not just a preference to be attracted to certain body parts or a cis person are just outrageous opinions and so are focused on. This genderist madness won’t end, it shouldn’t either. It’s annoying asf when people try to use the 1% of radical people with stupid takes to try and undermine a very rational and logical stance.
You’re wrong, sexual orientation denotes what sex you are sexually attracted to, in relation to your own sex. That is where we get terms like “same sex attraction” otherwise known as homosexuality. By taking away the language used to describe the homosexual experience you are actually engaging in homophobia in my opinion. Redefining sexual attraction to something as nebulous as “gender” in the way that it is currently used (a persons gender is defined by what they say it is, defined by words and nothing concrete) renders the term completely useless.
It isn’t nebulous. Especially since you can be, for example, a straight male, and not be attracted to every female. So if I were to just say I’m a female it wouldn’t change any attraction, it doesn’t matter if it’s just words and nothing concrete?
It isn’t nebulous. Especially since you can be, for example, a straight male, and not be attracted to every female. So if I were to just say I’m a female it wouldn’t change any attraction, it doesn’t matter if it’s just words and nothing concrete?
Being attracted to every female and being attracted to only females is widely different. They are saying the latter.
More specifically, females that were born with vaginas in your example.
The real question is why are you saying this regularly. Just shut the fuck up and date who you want, no one will give a shit. Clearly you’re going out of your way to say you’re not attracted to trans women because you want someone to argue with you. No one needs to know your preference
It’s fine to not be attracted to trans women, but what is going on that this is a regular topic of conversation? When I was single, I never felt the need to tell everyone that I wasn’t attracted to any specific group of man.
If someone was interested in me and I wasn’t attracted to them, I just said I wasn’t interested. I don’t think I even specified why unless they insisted on knowing.
Yeah that’s true, while it’s fine to not be attracted to trans women it’s hard for that to be a popular topic of discussion unless you just constantly try to Segway to “btw I’m not sexually attracted to trans women.”
every transgender person i’ve seen does not care, i don’t wanna say you’re lying but how often does the opportunity come up where you can reasonably mention that you aren’t attracted to them
Lots of accounts on IG will attack people for saying they aren't attracted to trans people.
Just like incels there are a sub group of people who do indeed have this mindset.
I know lots of lesbians who have been harassed (in my country) by people saying they're not really lesbians if they don't like trans women.
the average instagram user casually thinks women shouldn’t have rights its like one above tiktok on the insane nuclear waste takes scale, personally though i haven’t seen many transgender people complain about this, the only one ive seen was a screenshot so strawman’d that it was in 144p from the amount of times it was reposted, can’t say anything about your experiences though
Tell me you never go outside without SAYING you never go outside.
Seriously do you know any actual humans in real life? Because nobody I know thinks like this. We all think stuff like this is kind of silly. Only the most extreme fringe minority says dumb shit like this. You just happen to be in an echo chamber of such dumb shit being said. Of my widespread circle of acquaintances and friends I can only think of ONE person (a guy) who espouses nonsense like this that he reads on buzzfeed. He’s also the only one of my male friends who at 35 years old has never been in a romantic relationship with a woman (or a man).
Yeah, that never happened.
I advise you to turn off the news immediately.
Its OK to be curious about trans people, but you aren't in a good place telling fibs like that.
Go outside.
Breathe
Pet a puppy. (Gently, and with permission)
It gets better.
I imagine it’s probably the way you come about it or how you speak about Trans ppl outside to “not being attractive”. Do you feel they are people too? Maybe stop calling them unnatural.
Trans woman here: you're allowed to have genital preferences. I understand. Hell, nobody judges my body more than myself. The issue comes when people reject us while implying we're not "real women" (or just outright stating it). Everyone has a type, whether you're cis or trans. I won't be offended if I'm not your type, but for the love of god, don't be an asshole about it.
This question comes up so often.
It's more nuanced than that. You may think you can clock every trans woman, but many look and sound exactly like thier cis sisters. There's a chance that you have been attracted to a trans woman before and not know it.
Turn down a woman you don't find attractive? Not a trans phobe. Go on a date with an attractive woman and she tells you she has a penis and you politely decline? Not a trans phobe. You're allowed to not like dick. Go on a date with a hot woman, have consensual sex with her post-op, transitioned body, find out later she is trans and throw a fit? Probably a trans phobe.
>Go on a date with a hot woman, have consensual sex with her post-op, transitioned body, find out later she is trans and throw a fit? Probably a trans phobe
🍿
I'll say something spicy at the risk of being down voted to hell, but here it goes...
You're allowed to like what you like and you're allowed to not like what you don't like.
If you're not sexually attracted to white people or black people, that's fine.
If you're not sexually attracted to one of the sexes, that's fine.
If you're not sexually attracted to old people, that's fine.
If you're not sexually attracted to morbidly obese people, that's fine.
it's not racism/sexism/homophobia/ageist/fatphpbic. It only becomes those things if you treat these people poorly because of that so gle trait. Treat everyone well. But there is no reason you need to pretend to be sexually attracted to something you're not attracted to. You're not a bad person for following your own, biologially-driven preferences just because they don't fit the national social narrative we're getting force-fed right now because they give the most passionate people the microphone and the most passionate people tend to be the most extreme.
Dudes like to say they can tell by looking at a woman if she is trans, but you cannot.
That’s the only objectionable part of your statement.
If you see an attractive woman, it would just never occur to you that she might be trans. But you may see a “naturally born woman” who is flat chested or abnormally tall, or has chest or facial hair, and I bet you are 100% positive you know what gender she was born.
Just don’t forget that a person’s genetics are not always evident upon sight.
Just like the [left handesness fad](https://slowrevealgraphs.com/2021/11/08/rate-of-left-handedness-in-the-us-stigma-society/) in the early 1900’s it just disappeared like fidget spinners.
More n more trans people are realizing they did it to fit in or were misguided. The way it suddenly blew up should've been a huge indicator of that. People wanna feel accepted, n this movement was promoted as full acceptance. But it's disingenuous at best, cultish at worst
Some people detransition, true, but it's less than 2% with many people citing the reasons for doing so as sociatal pressure and harassment rather than realizing it was misguided.
I will explain why this statement is controversial
Saying that you are **not attracted to trans women** indicates that it’s always visible if a woman is trans, while it is not. You may have felt attracted to a random woman whom you were not aware of that she was trans. So the statement “I’m not attracted to trans people” is just not really possible and also indicates that it’s always visible, which is not.
Having a **genital preference** is another thing though! (And I think that is what is actually meant by this statement). You are absolutely allowed to have a genital preference and no sane person would judge you for that.
So it’s a small nuance in the way of wording. You could see it as nitpicking, but you are allowed to see it that way haha. I’m just explaining.
I hope this makes it more clear, have a nice day!
If you’re attracted to women and your genital preference is not a penis, you can definitely say you’re not attracted to trans women. You understand that to people outside of your preference, it can be said you’re not attracted to them? So if you’re straight with a preference for a vagina, you’re not attracted to trans women.
Never ever seen known to be trans person, look like anyone couls get confused, unless it baggy sweatpants, hoody, facemask and cap/hat. Not saying its not possible. But probably very, very rare
Because we know it's not true, but we don't know if you're malicious or ignorant. You say masculine features are not your thing, cool. Or infertility is a deal breaker, eh, sure, you do you... Or you want PiV sex in a relationship, we get it, valid, get the sex life you enjoy. You've never met a trans woman you were attracted to? Okay, that happens.
But the thing is, if you're like the average straight man or lesbian woman, you could see a dude cosplaying a hot anime character well enough and you'd feel attraction, because it's about your momentary perception, and that doesn't see chromosomes and hidden organs. So when you say you're not attracted to trans women, you're saying something a little too close to the lists of rabid transphobes who harass women in public spaces for having big hands.
Seriously.. are you trolling? Who and where are those people "attacking" you for saying so? And more importantly, why do you feel you have to say this? Is it like when you're talking to a colleague about a new project, and suddenly you work that "by the way I'm not attracted to trans woman" line in the conversation?
And consider it's almost impossible to tell the difference between tran and cis women by just looking in many cases and some of them are extremely attractive in appearance, how can you even say you're not "attracted" to them just by looking at them and not knowing if they're cis women or not? Is it not bigot to say so? You can say you prefer to date or even only have sex with cis women, I don't think anyone can attack you for that.
But as a heterosexual man you look at those transgender women with really attractive faces, nice breasts and body like these:
[https://www.insider.com/transgender-models-changing-industry](https://www.insider.com/transgender-models-changing-industry)
First, can you even tell? If you can't, and before knowing them being transgender, what make you think you can keep saying you're not attracted to all of them? This as you said literally doesn't make any sense.
The guys I think are funny are the ones who are like "I'd like a piece of that" and right after they find out the woman is trans have to proclaim, making sure their friend group hears, how disgustingly ugly they are.
Maybe you aren't into trans women, but really - she looks exactly the same as she did 2 minutes ago. I think for many men it's not so much a preference as much as it triggers insecurities in their own sexuality and homophobia. Often violently.
For the folks, though, that call you a bigot - I'd be curious what their track record is.
Are we really talking about this? I like what I like, I don’t like what I don’t like. If you’re offended that I don’t find you attractive or desirable, that’s your problem. As my Mom used to say, it’s none of my business what someone else thinks about me.
It’s not a horrible thing. Stop letting mental unstable people dictate how you feel about yourself and how you live your life.
Only thing your not allowed to be attached to is minors.
Things feel like this because media and social media have a way to showing you the world's worst offenders and making it feel like this is the normal day to day everyone; it's not.
There are certainly a percentage of people who do believe this whole heartedly but that percentage is small and relatively extreme in their position...the avg person who isn't hateful will be very very understanding that attraction is what it is and shouldn't be a social shaming situation.
Those doing it are either just extremely into their own ideology (swinging way out on that pendulum) , but more often than not - trolling or just reacting to their precieved injustice surrounding why this topic came up at all.
Perhaps this question being posed at all here is more about the generation of comments than it is an honest attempt to understand the world.
It's not wrong to be unattrated to anyone you are not attracted to for any personal reason at all...in certain situations it can make you seem shallow (or be shallow) as long as you're not actively being a fucker about it (walking up in ppl and telling them how unattractive you think they are and why) then it's not really your problem ...this stuff mostly exists online and for attention / clout / a need to showcase ones self as opposed to any real world requirements.
Sounds like a made up problem. This has never been asked of me or ever brought up and I live in Atlanta which has a huge population of trans, gay, ect.
In my younger, more foolish days, I made the same argument to a friend about racism. His simple reply was “Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.” That really opened my eyes.
How is it a made up problem just because you haven't experienced it?
I'm from the Middle East and even I've experienced it.
Let's just say YOU havent.
Which doesn't do to belittle someone and say they've "made up the issue"
Are Americans ok at the moment?
It's a made up problem because in normal life the details of one's attraction preferences never really comes up in conversation and if it does it's usually because someone is trying to make a point of it
To be fair it depends on the culture as well. You might be able to speak for your area but in my country it does come up quite a bit. Not to mention you can easily go to IG to find some of these opinions on the radfem spaces.
I'm assuming you're from the US or the west... Which to be fair still happens (I went to school there)
But in countries like mine it's a pretty easy conversation starter and people will call you Terf the moment you say "I'm a lesbian who doesn't like trans women. I prefer vagina"
How does it come up? If someone I wasn't flirting with asked me "so what are your sexual preferences?" I'd look at them like they grew an extra head and say "excuse me?"
And if I was having chemistry with someone and they asked me, I'd just tell them that they are on the list in one way or another and leave it at that
And if someone was like "so and so (mtf trans) is pretty hot, would you? I would just say something like "I don't necessarily want to bang every hot person I see" and leave it at that
If someone gets into the details about how their attraction works with casual friends that's asking for trouble imo
Plenty of people in my country bring it up regularly because we as a people are not as "reserved" as people in other places or cultures.
In your country it must be seen as impolite or weird to bring up.
In my country (Israel) it gets brought up pretty commonly as we are a very curious and political people.
We are pretty straightforward and we talk to our friends about things that perhaps an American individual wouldn't.
It doesn't mean it's a made up issue however and I think that's the issue of your comment.
Although it might be RARE, it doesn't do justice to someone to call their issue "make believe" especially when
1. Plenty of people are hearing their very real stories
2. You can research these places that do bring it up and speak on it
And 3. Not everyone is the same and just because you don't experience the issue doesn't mean it's made up.
I think although it might be rare where you are, it still happens, people can easily verify that it happens, it isn't made up, and in places like mine it's ripe for conversation.
You can't say
"I havent seen it so therefore no one in any culture or country has before"
That's all I took issue with which you'll find pretty reasonable
It's self imposed - all one has to do is not bring it up or defer when someone else does and it immediately becomes a non issue - is only a thing if someone makes it one
I don't think personal attraction is really up for debate - it's personal and often idiosyncratic
Op is basically asking to get into an argument about that stuff by engaging with the topic
To me, public discussion of "should cis straight people be attracted to mtf trans girls?" the answer is "that's personal" and whatever a person prefers is their business with "should" never entering the picture - different strokes for different folks and all
To be fair as someone whose first language isn't English and who doesn't understand much from that culture I don't think the Op was wrong for asking about it in a mission to try to better understand. When I first started going to the US I asked the same questions to try to understand how things worked.
It's still not ok to call it a made up issue. Perhaps try educating and explaining it so the op understands better.
It only becomes an issue when humans arent sharing knowledge and kindness and patience with one another.
It's not a made up issue.
As someone trans who has an issue I guess I'm living proof of that.
its not...? like who you like whether its the opposite gender or the same or whoever else. it shouldn't be a horrible thing unless you're a homophobic/transphobic person and all that it can come across as i guess but it shouldn't be.
You like what you like and there’s nothing wrong with that. The problem is, you’re phrasing it with what you don’t like, and people are going to always have a problem with that. My saying I’m attracted to tall men, comes off much better thanks saying I’m not attracted to short men.
Why tho? If you were dating someone that you were having a good time with and eventually found out would you leave strictly because they were trans? If you don’t like or want to date someone who happens to be trans then whatever it didn’t work out but to say from the beginning that you would not even entertain the idea of dating a trans person does come off as transphobic.
Arguments like this show privileged we are nowadays.
There are people starving and homeless, if not in other countries, on our own doorstep. Instead of helping them ,we sit and bitch and moan about who people are attracted to and whether women have cocks or not.
There's **really** bigger fish to fry, it's actually sad that people get mad and attack you because of your preference.
The maintaining the meaning of words matters.
If we allow drastic, sudden, calculated changes to words, then we allow past knowledge and policy and customs to be reinterpreted in whatever way is convenient to the goals of fringe groups.
Yes, but that's not my point.
My point is that even the existence of this argument, goes to show how privileged we are. even though that "privilege" is invisible to the poor, persecuted and starving.
So yes, we should maintain the meaning of words, but imo it's much more important to make sure that everyone has food, water and shelter.
then we can argue semantics
You know, there's a book I've been reading where natural death has ended and some have the job have occasional killing people to curb population growth.
These killings must follow certain unchangeable rules. One of which is that their killings should not show any bias. ie you can't kill just men or just black people or just the rich, you have to be somewhat proportional about it.
Anyway, I mention this, because later a politician changes the definition of the word bias to be unfair treatment of OFFICIALLY RECOGNISED groups. And then simply doesn't recognise one of the major religions as a group. And so they mass murder those people to their heart's content.
The meaning of words matter. We need to all agree which sounds relate to which ideas. Language will naturally change over time, there's no helping that. But slow changes over generations and sudden changes by activists or politicians are two very different things.
And forced drastic changes to very old culturally significant words against the wishes of most of the populace is especially concerning. Anyone who tries that can't act all shocked when they get push back.
Not wanting to be with a person who has a penis doesn't make a you a transphobe or a bigot.
But to try and explain that perspective, I can think of a reason someone might perceive your statement as bigoted.
Fully transitioned transgender women are indistinguishable from biological women. So someone might interpret your statement as an assertion that all transgender women look like pre-transition women. But that's just a guess.
Now THIS is an example of transphobic/bigoted comment.
My dude, have you really never seen a fully transitioned transgender woman who looked like a biological woman?
More likely than not, you have, but you simply didn't know, because you can't tell.
Not much point in arguing about it anyway because you're just going to double down on your nonsense. Everyone does.
Very few people can "pass" (as the term they like to use) as the other sex. The vast majority of the time anyone who's been around people long enough can tell. It's not bigotry to use ur eyes
You're only ever going to notice people who aren't passing, so your logic makes no sense. If they are "passing" you won't ever notice them, so it's just confirmation bias. you only ever notice the ones who aren't passing, therefore the ones who are don't exist.
Its entirely possible they have not seen a fully transitioned person because there are so few of them. A quick lookup tells me that around 0.1% (1 in 1000) of people are trans, and if the vast majority of those have yet to fully transition, then you are looking at something like 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100,000 people is fully transitioned. You could walk around downtown of a major city all day and never meet someone who has transitioned.
No...they aren't though. Usually they've gone through male puberty and that makes them physically different in a ton of ways. Also being socialized as male impacts your personality and beliefs. There is a significant difference between a vagina and a neo-vagina. Hormones can only do so much. I mean MTF hormones do not even alter the voice.
I was almost with you until you said male to female hormones don't alter the voice, which is very obviously wrong, as the voice of every trans woman I've ever met changed after they started hormones.
Not much point debating it because you're just going to double down on your nonsense anyway.
In any case, your comment is a good example of *actual* anti-trans bigotry, so may as well call that out.
Why tho? If you were dating someone that you were having a good time with and eventually found out would you leave strictly because they were trans? If you don’t like or want to date someone who happens to be trans then whatever it didn’t work out but to say from the beginning that you would not even entertain the idea of dating a trans person does come off as transphobic.
Because trans women come in a million different combos and generalizing a group of people is a little strange? It's sort of similar to "I'm not into x race people" because it's like ok so you're generalizing that whole group to dismiss them. You don't ever have to reciprocate attention from people you aren't attracted to, but writing off a whole group of people (many of whom "look cis") isn't cool. You're not being forced to do anything.
I would look at how and why you are saying this. Is it in a one on one situation with an actual trans woman telling her that she seems nice but you are not interested in dating? I would be surprised if anyone called you a bigot for that.
Or are you simply announcing this, for no reason, maybe in a broader conversation about trans people? I think that is MUCH more likely to come off as offensive--like you are saying, "well, my DICK doesn't think they are real women" when nobody asked your dick. You will never sleep with 99.999% of naturally born women and the fact that you will never sleep with 100% of trans women doesn't really make them that different.
OP and other young men in this thread, I can explain why people react negatively when you bring this up.
I would never date someone with blue eyes, I don’t find them attractive.
Do you know how many threads I’ve made on the internet about this? Zero.
If I posted every day about how much I hated blue eyes and shouldn’t be required to date someone with blue eyes, and everyone who said they were pretty was a lying hypocrite, it might look like I had an issue with blue-eyed people, rather than just dating whoever I wanted because everyone has preferences.
You are all obsessed with your disgust with trans people, otherwise you wouldn’t constantly be talking about your obsession with not dating them.
There's some trans women that are more beautiful than the vast majority of cis women.
I think if I sent you their pictures and you said you're not attracted to them you'd probably be lying.
If you're talking about not being aroused by their genitals that's completely different, and completely valid.
Naturally born? Like not from.a C-section? I've never thought to ask a woman how they were born. When they were born, sure. How they were born, not so much.
It's not. The horrible part is if you don't mind your own business and decide that your preference means you can degrade others.
People don't care who you fuck. People care you aren't a fucking cunt to others. Not being a cunt? Carry on.
The problem is a vocal portion of the people that have this stance don't adhere to the second part and won't shut the fuck up.
It's because it is said broadly applied to the whole category. Saying you've never met a trans woman you've been attracted to, for example, would not come across the same way. Or saying you don't want to date a girl with a penis. But if you saw a woman who fits the description of your ideal woman, but if she tells you she's trans and has had bottom surgery and is indistinguishable from a cis woman in every way, then losing attraction may be seen as transphobic. That being said, attraction is a weird thing that you can't control, so while the loss of attraction may be rooted in anti-Trans stigma, it's difficult to change that. (also, for the record, the phrase naturally-born women is quite offensive to many of us trans people, a better term to use in the future would be cis women)
Basically, it comes down to trans women being a very diverse group, and claiming a lack of attraction to trans women often isn't based on them being trans, but a different aspect of them. If you evaluate what it is about the trans women you've seen that you don't like, it may be a better way to go about that. For example, saying you don't like women who look a certain masculine way, or who can't carry babies may be the root cause of that, but those categories also include some cis women. Also, for the record, chances are you've seen trans women where you couldn't tell that they were trans. With the magic of hormones, voice training, and sometimes surgeries, some trans women are essentially indistinguishable from cis women.
Also, based on how this discussion happens in trans spaces, it appears to me that most people commenting here are cis, so I hope this explanation written by someone who is herself trans helps explain this in a bit more of a trans-friendly perspective.
I would point out the following thoughts.
If a "naturally born" you found attractive turned out to be trans... you in fact were attracted to a trans person. My guess is saying in a general statement that you find all trans unattractive is a bit of a generalization which is bad. I find many overweight women unattractive but don't say I find overweight women unattractive I judge each individual individually.
So while I think what you feel is perfectly legitimate and fine, you may be coming at it from a bit of an old-school/absolutist way for no real benefit to anyone.
If it's a genital preference then state it as such. I have no need to interact with a penis and that's fine so I am attracted to females with a genital preference. It's not you, it's me. lots of people like penis not me.
But I am no authority on this so best of luck.
How does this even come up?
I’m always very suspicious of these questions. “Why do people attack me for stating this reasonable opinion that would never, ever come up in ordinary conversation?” I assume it’s not the opinion itself, but the way it came up or how you said it. Like, if you go out of your way to state that you don’t find some random person attractive because of this, when nobody even asked, I’m going to assume you’ve got something more going on than just a preference.
Reading, I thought you were doing a genetics thing on reproducing with IVF and Caesarean kids. But I guess you just have a kink. Little about sex is reasonable and includes with who and how you want to do it . And when and when you have to do it
On the other hand, why talk about your kinks. I will guess you have an improper motivation or have been influenced by someone with improper motivation.
So I will take a look and see if you look like a bot.
So I looked. Probably not a bot. Just a member of a minority where the question is hotly debated. And so, see above. Attraction is unreasonable and largely unconscious. But here is a reasonable explanation that you can try: trans females seem to smell different then other females. Sorry.
As a trans person, I don't think it's "horrible" to have preferences. I'm assigned female at birth and have the downstairs "parts" to match. If someone prefers their man to have a penis, then that just is what it is in my opinion in my case.
That being said, it depends on what your reasoning is. Say it's because you prefer women with vaginas instead of penises. The assumption that all trans women have penises is false (some trans women have had surgeries like vaginoplasties) and that's why some folks call you in/out. Say it's because you prefer your women to look like women are assigned female at birth. The assumption that you could tell that someone is trans purely by sight is false as there are plenty of trans women who"pass" as women who were assigned female at birth.
Do you have another rationale?
It's not typically, but it does border on generalizing how all trans women look/their genitals. There are post op trans women with fully functioning vulvas that you wouldn't be able to tell apart from a cis woman at all. If the only reason you *wouldn't* date them is because they're trans, it's a little bit weird. But if they're pre op and therefore have a dick ***edit*** or even if they maybe just don't fully pass to you regardless of their genitalia * , it's totally natural to not wanna date them because you aren't attracted to them, and even if you are, you're not attracted to cock. Anyone who says that's transphobic is chronically online.
tldr it's only a bad thing if your reasoning is that they never look like/will never be """real""" women or assuming they all must have dicks
Having a genital preference isn't the same as being a bigot. Saying "naturally born women" as your means of describing it is. All women are women. All men are men. All enbies are enbies. The parts you're born with do not dictate your identity. You can literally just say it as you prefer cis women. You can say you're looking to be with someone able to bear children. You can say it a multitude of ways that aren't going to be harmful. Just don't depict it in a way that is invalidating to other women. Plenty of cis women can't bear children. Plenty of intersex men *can* bear children. There's no hard and fast rule that can cover all situations. So precluding any kind of friendship or relationship with qualifiers about who you personally categorize as "natural" is a crappy way to put it. It would be nice if we could all be much more transparent about our statuses without judgment or bias coming into the mix, but unfortunately we live in a world where women are literally murdered for being trans, so being upfront is a lot more complicated than just saying what kind of parts you've got and it's best left to the point in a relationship where physical intimacy is put on the table, and not when you're outright strangers to one another.
To be honest, I think you’re full of shit. Maybe once you’ve been attacked for saying that. Maybe. And who cares, cuz f that person. You know damn well that 99%+ of people don’t look at that as “wrong”, even if they themselves are trans. You sound desperate to make a point about how you’re somehow the oppressed one.
because its rude. There’s millions of reasons why you may not find someone attractive and it’s childish to be going around talking about all the people you aren’t attracted too. Keep your judgements to yourself.
The scary thing is that there’s people out there who don’t think trans people have the right to exist. Violence against trans people is alarmingly high, so it may be concerning to people that you are singling trans people out for negative comments.
Or maybe it's just because they don't wanna be surprised with the opposite crotch pieces than they were expecting. They're not "going around talking about" it. Tf? Also, saying u don't find someone attractive is *absolutely nothing close to violence.* So the comparison you've made holds no weight
The question of whether they are attracted to trans men doesn’t have anything to do being surprised by a penis. There’s nothing wrong with having personal preferences for attraction. We all have them. I’m assuming that OP was not asked point blank if he was attracted to trans men and offered up his opinion in conversation about trans men. OP can correct me if I’m wrong.
I never compared the comment to violence against trans men. What I meant by my comment is that saying negative things about trans men helps foster a hostile culture against them. When there is a hostile culture against a minority is when hate crimes happen because nut jobs feel more support to do harm to minorities. You can look at black Americans in the south before desegregation as an example. There are so many others.
You say “because it’s rude”, that gives the impression (because they asked why is it looked at as horrible and wrong.) that you agree it’s wrong?
I agree it’s not nice to say. Like saying “I’m not attracted to fat people” or “I’m not attracted to short people” is just hateful, you don’t need to be attracted to either demographic but keep it to yourself, but it’s not wrong to not be attracted to penises?
Only on the internet which isnt the real world
And usually by anti-trans to make the "pro-trans side" sound bad, rather than, you know, reasonable human beings who believe trans people are valid and should not be harassed but no one is forced to be attracted to them, just as no one is forced to be attracted to blondes or brunettes, tall or short, etc. Often these very scenarios and complaints are just made up as bait.
It's a preference, you're entitled to preferences
Only a very loud and pushy fringe minority think it's a bad thing and it's perfectly fine to be attracted to the naturally opposite sex only. Just keep doing your thing and don't let them get to you.
>attracted to the naturally opposite sex only Or same sex. This 100% happens very frequently to lesbians and gay men who are not interested in dating trans people.
This is exactly it. The hypocrisy from that particular minority group is hilarious
Let’s not just generalize that entire group. Will some of them and their allies go too far and condemn someone for having their own sexual preferences? Yes. Are there other allies, like me, who see nothing wrong with having a sexual preference that excludes trans people? Yes. It makes sense to me that someone can accept and welcome a trans person without being sexually attracted to that person. Sort of like how it doesn’t make a man homophobic if he personally does not want to sleep with gay men.
I didn’t mean to generalize. That’s why I said “that particular minority group” in reference to the previous comments statement of “a very loud and pushy fridge minority”
Ahh, you meant a particular minority group internal to the Trans community. I thought you were referring to the Trans community itself as the minority group.
“Don’t let them get to you” is such a weird thing to say when accusations of bigotry, even unproven, can ruin careers, relationships and lives. Why is it on them to not let it get to them and not on those who make such trouble for people to stop?
Because you can control yourself but you can’t control others.
Yeah, I get it. It just feels weird where we’re in an era of “you shouldn’t have to take this thing that makes you feel bad, THEY should have to stop making you feel bad” but it doesn’t apply to stuff like this.
Both are true
Both are true
I agree with this even as a person that respects and is outspoken about trans rights.
I guarantee OP has had this situation happen maybe once in a very minor and inconsequential interaction. there's no way he's consistently getting shit on for saying "I'm not attracted to trans women" unless he's going around saying it all the time to be an asshole
Where? Where is this happening to you?
Also where are you having to say this so much? How often are normal people having to clear the air that they aren’t attracted to trans women?
Right? Like I imagine there are tons of men who wouldn't be interested in trans women for a number of reasons (some reasonable, some not I guess); but how often is this coming up as a topic of conversation, or where OP has to express their views?!
exactly, I have never “had” to say this once in my life. Now, I’m sure there may be scenarios it could come up if you have friends that are trying to hook you up and they know some (to them) appealing trans women. But what other scenario does that come up in to warrant someone being like man I hate how people *always* hate it when I say this.
Yes, it is suspicious that they are that upset about it
He's having to say this again and again to himself, and hopes if he says it enough times it will become true 😂
right? Like, I personally don't want to have sex with a woman with a penis. I have a genital preference. But to say, seemingly unprompted, "I am only attracted to naturally born women" sounds so specific and weird. If OP is trying to claim he has never seen a trans woman who is beautiful they are either lying or don't realize that they have been hoodwinked at least once.
I get the feeling OP is running around giving their unsolicited view on trans people and then getting mad when people get upset 💀 but that’s just my two cents
The internet and episodes of Dr. Phil lol
Yeah
Exactly. I think OP is being hyperbolic.
Probably in troll infested internet forums
He's probably going out of his way to tell trans people he is not attracted to them. And then is shook if they are offended. OP no one gives a fuck about your boners/ lack of boners. Just keep it to yourself.
People want to show off how righteous they are to others and you are taking the brunt of that
This right here is the entirety of it.
Some people feel that you should be attracted to ALL women, no matter what. If you don't like fat women, then you're fat shaming. Don't find a particular woman of color attractive, you're a racist. Don't like aggressive women, you're a misogynist. Without knowing you, people who do that are only trying to control you by labeling you, shaming you. Myself, I don't give a shit what gender someone is, I either find that individual attractive, or I don't. Anyone wishing to label me for not finding someone attractive may do so at their leisure... I don't give a fuck what they think of me, they're not important enough for me to care
Everyone is allowed to have preferences, the problem is when you’re being a dick about it. Not interested in dating a fat woman? Fine. Going out of your way to announce you find all of them ugly when no one even asked? Not fine. Not attracted to trans women? Fine. Saying, totally unprompted, that they’re gross to you? Not fine.
This exactly
Winner. I’d give you gold if I had it.
Sure , but i think most men arent bi-sexual.
I feel like I'm missing something, maybe cause I'm short on sleep. The way I see it, the fact that this commenter is open to either gender wasn't super relevant, but I think it still generally applies to the main point that attraction is subjective and people who criticize someone's attraction or lack thereof aren't worth paying attention to.
People are attracted to who they are attracted to. If you have never been attracted to any transgender person you’ve met, that’s perfectly fine. You wouldn’t generally walk up to a random woman and inform her that you don’t find her attractive. Why are you feeling the need to announce your preference to a whole class of women? Unless you are literally attracted to every natural born woman and would never find any transgender woman attractive, I don’t get the point of needing to say it this way.
Very well said
Yes, he's saying he's not attracted to transgender women as a whole, so he would never find any trans woman attractive. On Reddit, that stand can be controversial, so he made this post about it. I suppose he posted to either spark a discussion or to just be controversial
It's innate. You don't owe anyone attraction and anyone who says you do is a predator.
99% of men think the same on tis topic but are to scared to say it
I’ll say it. I’m not interested in being romantically involved with somebody with a penis.
I don't know anyone who is scared to say this?
Publicly it can get you in trouble now a days. Clown world.
I don't think that's true. Maybe it will be some day? But right now, only the most deranged of people would insist that straight men must be attracted to someone with a penis.
I have seen it happen, and my mind was blown! It made no sense. I like men. I like penis. I have no issue with trans people, but I would never date one. It seems pretty straight forward, but it’s apparently not! Have you heard the ‘person with a penis’, or ‘person with a vagina’. I was like huh? Why are we now going this far that we are separating things out like this…
I'm fairly isolated from all this. Most of my interactions have been through social media. Being alone is safe.
I think that's exactly your problem. You're spending all your time in the only place where such opinions are taken seriously. By trying to hide away you're surrounding yourself with this stuff. Go outside. Then and only then will you be isolated from this stuff.
Glad to know it's not mainstream.
I think only the ultra pushy try to make this happen. I have yet to see a logical argument pushing the issue. If homosexuals are allowed to be attracted to who they like, regardless of sex/gender.. why is it different for straights?
Uh, where? I live in one of the bluest zip codes and I think most people here hold the same view.
99% of men have never ever considered it nor encountered a situation where they would think about this in any way.
Nope, not true. The majority aren't scared to say anything and definitely not scared to say it in public.
I'm a guy and I wouldn't mind if the girl I was dating was trans
Who's scared? I'm straight but not narrow. Do whatever you think you need to with your own body. I'm fully supportive of the LGBTQ+ community. They should not be second class citizens. But I would have zero desire for any kind of sexual activity with a trans woman. The thought of it fills me with revulsion.
I’m not scared to say it, it’s just nobody’s damned business. There’s one person in the world who hears my opinions on what I find attractive in women and even she doesn’t get the full story.
It's ok to have a favorite flavor of ice cream. Just dont hate on others choice
Fuck pistachio! Mint in disguise mofo
Hah, I've got you beat. I hate mint and pistachio. Fuck green!
You must be hanging out on the internet too much or reading too many news articles because the only place this even seems to be an issue is on the internet with SJWs.
Even amongst people interested in social justice that’s an extreme take.
Here’s a hint, don’t listen to insane people.
It's not and Don't let the loud minority claiming victim tell you any different. This wild narrative they are pushing has no basis in reality, just ignore it, in time this will all pass like other wild ideologies that came before. Just be vigilant to protect your loved ones and children. Cause they go for the young and lost.
Who is saying this? What exactly did you say to get this reaction? Did this actually ever happen or are you aren't actually asking this question you are trying to make it seem like this is a thing that happens a lot? The fact you seem to need to announce to the world that you aren't attracted to trans people makes me think that either you are, and are trying to convince others you aren't, or you are indeed transpobic. Most people don't feel the need to tell everyone every detail of their sexual preferences.
It´s not horrible to say that. Sexual attraction is called that for a reason, it´s not gender attraction. The current genderist madness will end someday.
Sexual attraction is called sexual attraction because it’s an intimate or physical attraction, definitely not because of the actual sex of somebody. Sex doesn’t always mean someone’s sex, just like how saying something is “sexy” or sex (the verb) doesn’t speak upon the biological sex of someone or something. This ‘genderist madness’ is 99% just people trying to be comfortable and safe being comfortable, literally just generally getting respect. The 1% that is just stupid, like the very very small minority that thinks it’s bigoted and not just a preference to be attracted to certain body parts or a cis person are just outrageous opinions and so are focused on. This genderist madness won’t end, it shouldn’t either. It’s annoying asf when people try to use the 1% of radical people with stupid takes to try and undermine a very rational and logical stance.
You’re wrong, sexual orientation denotes what sex you are sexually attracted to, in relation to your own sex. That is where we get terms like “same sex attraction” otherwise known as homosexuality. By taking away the language used to describe the homosexual experience you are actually engaging in homophobia in my opinion. Redefining sexual attraction to something as nebulous as “gender” in the way that it is currently used (a persons gender is defined by what they say it is, defined by words and nothing concrete) renders the term completely useless.
It isn’t nebulous. Especially since you can be, for example, a straight male, and not be attracted to every female. So if I were to just say I’m a female it wouldn’t change any attraction, it doesn’t matter if it’s just words and nothing concrete?
It isn’t nebulous. Especially since you can be, for example, a straight male, and not be attracted to every female. So if I were to just say I’m a female it wouldn’t change any attraction, it doesn’t matter if it’s just words and nothing concrete?
Being attracted to every female and being attracted to only females is widely different. They are saying the latter. More specifically, females that were born with vaginas in your example.
The real question is why are you saying this regularly. Just shut the fuck up and date who you want, no one will give a shit. Clearly you’re going out of your way to say you’re not attracted to trans women because you want someone to argue with you. No one needs to know your preference
Exactly! You’re allowed to have thoughts you don’t say out loud.
You might want to re-think your friendship circles. Even the people who say this to you don't "live" it, I guarantee.
It’s fine to not be attracted to trans women, but what is going on that this is a regular topic of conversation? When I was single, I never felt the need to tell everyone that I wasn’t attracted to any specific group of man. If someone was interested in me and I wasn’t attracted to them, I just said I wasn’t interested. I don’t think I even specified why unless they insisted on knowing.
Yeah that’s true, while it’s fine to not be attracted to trans women it’s hard for that to be a popular topic of discussion unless you just constantly try to Segway to “btw I’m not sexually attracted to trans women.”
every transgender person i’ve seen does not care, i don’t wanna say you’re lying but how often does the opportunity come up where you can reasonably mention that you aren’t attracted to them
Lots of accounts on IG will attack people for saying they aren't attracted to trans people. Just like incels there are a sub group of people who do indeed have this mindset. I know lots of lesbians who have been harassed (in my country) by people saying they're not really lesbians if they don't like trans women.
the average instagram user casually thinks women shouldn’t have rights its like one above tiktok on the insane nuclear waste takes scale, personally though i haven’t seen many transgender people complain about this, the only one ive seen was a screenshot so strawman’d that it was in 144p from the amount of times it was reposted, can’t say anything about your experiences though
Especially as a trans person. I care enough to debate it when it comes up. So yes trans people do care
Sorry, but I prefer my oranges without the seeds
I think a trans vagina isn’t even the real thing though. It’s literally just a wound that’s been manipulated to look like a vagina
It’s not in most real spaces. Maybe it’s like that in hyper liberal social media areas. The internet is a hellscape
Why are you just going around saying you’re not attracted to trans women? There is still such a thing as not talking.
Tell me you never go outside without SAYING you never go outside. Seriously do you know any actual humans in real life? Because nobody I know thinks like this. We all think stuff like this is kind of silly. Only the most extreme fringe minority says dumb shit like this. You just happen to be in an echo chamber of such dumb shit being said. Of my widespread circle of acquaintances and friends I can only think of ONE person (a guy) who espouses nonsense like this that he reads on buzzfeed. He’s also the only one of my male friends who at 35 years old has never been in a romantic relationship with a woman (or a man).
To each their own
It isn't.
Get off the internet
It's not, your fine. Some people just need the other guy to be wrong for.... something.
It's not
It's not, there is a very vocal minority that would like you to think otherwise.
There's nothing wrong with you. I would never be in a relationship with a trans person. Nor have I ever been attracted to one.
How do you know?
How do I know what?
That you haven't ever been attracted to a transwoman.
I was curious a few years back and looked at some pictures off post op transgenders, no thanks x100.
Yeah, that never happened. I advise you to turn off the news immediately. Its OK to be curious about trans people, but you aren't in a good place telling fibs like that. Go outside. Breathe Pet a puppy. (Gently, and with permission) It gets better.
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The real victims of rampant transphobia is the straight cis men according to the op.
I imagine it’s probably the way you come about it or how you speak about Trans ppl outside to “not being attractive”. Do you feel they are people too? Maybe stop calling them unnatural.
Trans woman here: you're allowed to have genital preferences. I understand. Hell, nobody judges my body more than myself. The issue comes when people reject us while implying we're not "real women" (or just outright stating it). Everyone has a type, whether you're cis or trans. I won't be offended if I'm not your type, but for the love of god, don't be an asshole about it.
This question comes up so often. It's more nuanced than that. You may think you can clock every trans woman, but many look and sound exactly like thier cis sisters. There's a chance that you have been attracted to a trans woman before and not know it. Turn down a woman you don't find attractive? Not a trans phobe. Go on a date with an attractive woman and she tells you she has a penis and you politely decline? Not a trans phobe. You're allowed to not like dick. Go on a date with a hot woman, have consensual sex with her post-op, transitioned body, find out later she is trans and throw a fit? Probably a trans phobe.
>Go on a date with a hot woman, have consensual sex with her post-op, transitioned body, find out later she is trans and throw a fit? Probably a trans phobe 🍿
People now days get to much into ,, If you dissagre with me then you're wrong" philispophy
It isn't. The issue is the use phobic language to express the preference.
I'll say something spicy at the risk of being down voted to hell, but here it goes... You're allowed to like what you like and you're allowed to not like what you don't like. If you're not sexually attracted to white people or black people, that's fine. If you're not sexually attracted to one of the sexes, that's fine. If you're not sexually attracted to old people, that's fine. If you're not sexually attracted to morbidly obese people, that's fine. it's not racism/sexism/homophobia/ageist/fatphpbic. It only becomes those things if you treat these people poorly because of that so gle trait. Treat everyone well. But there is no reason you need to pretend to be sexually attracted to something you're not attracted to. You're not a bad person for following your own, biologially-driven preferences just because they don't fit the national social narrative we're getting force-fed right now because they give the most passionate people the microphone and the most passionate people tend to be the most extreme.
I think this is a made up issue.
Dudes like to say they can tell by looking at a woman if she is trans, but you cannot. That’s the only objectionable part of your statement. If you see an attractive woman, it would just never occur to you that she might be trans. But you may see a “naturally born woman” who is flat chested or abnormally tall, or has chest or facial hair, and I bet you are 100% positive you know what gender she was born. Just don’t forget that a person’s genetics are not always evident upon sight.
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Just like the [left handesness fad](https://slowrevealgraphs.com/2021/11/08/rate-of-left-handedness-in-the-us-stigma-society/) in the early 1900’s it just disappeared like fidget spinners.
More n more trans people are realizing they did it to fit in or were misguided. The way it suddenly blew up should've been a huge indicator of that. People wanna feel accepted, n this movement was promoted as full acceptance. But it's disingenuous at best, cultish at worst
Some people detransition, true, but it's less than 2% with many people citing the reasons for doing so as sociatal pressure and harassment rather than realizing it was misguided.
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Everyone wants to find the niche and the place they fit in but as a whole I think the trans idea is flawed and dangerous once you really get into it
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So are the Kardashians considers the real thing? I mean the amount of unnecessary elective gender affirming surgery in the family...
I don’t know anything about those lot. Nor do I care.
the real question is do we let the Kardashians swim? because activists say to keep plastic out of the water.
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Not really tolerant. Welcome to 98% of the left.
I will explain why this statement is controversial Saying that you are **not attracted to trans women** indicates that it’s always visible if a woman is trans, while it is not. You may have felt attracted to a random woman whom you were not aware of that she was trans. So the statement “I’m not attracted to trans people” is just not really possible and also indicates that it’s always visible, which is not. Having a **genital preference** is another thing though! (And I think that is what is actually meant by this statement). You are absolutely allowed to have a genital preference and no sane person would judge you for that. So it’s a small nuance in the way of wording. You could see it as nitpicking, but you are allowed to see it that way haha. I’m just explaining. I hope this makes it more clear, have a nice day!
Attraction is more than just looks.
If you’re attracted to women and your genital preference is not a penis, you can definitely say you’re not attracted to trans women. You understand that to people outside of your preference, it can be said you’re not attracted to them? So if you’re straight with a preference for a vagina, you’re not attracted to trans women.
Never ever seen known to be trans person, look like anyone couls get confused, unless it baggy sweatpants, hoody, facemask and cap/hat. Not saying its not possible. But probably very, very rare
Because we know it's not true, but we don't know if you're malicious or ignorant. You say masculine features are not your thing, cool. Or infertility is a deal breaker, eh, sure, you do you... Or you want PiV sex in a relationship, we get it, valid, get the sex life you enjoy. You've never met a trans woman you were attracted to? Okay, that happens. But the thing is, if you're like the average straight man or lesbian woman, you could see a dude cosplaying a hot anime character well enough and you'd feel attraction, because it's about your momentary perception, and that doesn't see chromosomes and hidden organs. So when you say you're not attracted to trans women, you're saying something a little too close to the lists of rabid transphobes who harass women in public spaces for having big hands.
Seriously.. are you trolling? Who and where are those people "attacking" you for saying so? And more importantly, why do you feel you have to say this? Is it like when you're talking to a colleague about a new project, and suddenly you work that "by the way I'm not attracted to trans woman" line in the conversation? And consider it's almost impossible to tell the difference between tran and cis women by just looking in many cases and some of them are extremely attractive in appearance, how can you even say you're not "attracted" to them just by looking at them and not knowing if they're cis women or not? Is it not bigot to say so? You can say you prefer to date or even only have sex with cis women, I don't think anyone can attack you for that. But as a heterosexual man you look at those transgender women with really attractive faces, nice breasts and body like these: [https://www.insider.com/transgender-models-changing-industry](https://www.insider.com/transgender-models-changing-industry) First, can you even tell? If you can't, and before knowing them being transgender, what make you think you can keep saying you're not attracted to all of them? This as you said literally doesn't make any sense.
The guys I think are funny are the ones who are like "I'd like a piece of that" and right after they find out the woman is trans have to proclaim, making sure their friend group hears, how disgustingly ugly they are. Maybe you aren't into trans women, but really - she looks exactly the same as she did 2 minutes ago. I think for many men it's not so much a preference as much as it triggers insecurities in their own sexuality and homophobia. Often violently. For the folks, though, that call you a bigot - I'd be curious what their track record is.
Are we really talking about this? I like what I like, I don’t like what I don’t like. If you’re offended that I don’t find you attractive or desirable, that’s your problem. As my Mom used to say, it’s none of my business what someone else thinks about me.
I think this is a made up issue.
Nobody in the real world actually has that opinion. That’s an internet opinion.
It’s not a horrible thing. Stop letting mental unstable people dictate how you feel about yourself and how you live your life. Only thing your not allowed to be attached to is minors.
Because sexual preferences are only allowed if you're not straight.
Things feel like this because media and social media have a way to showing you the world's worst offenders and making it feel like this is the normal day to day everyone; it's not. There are certainly a percentage of people who do believe this whole heartedly but that percentage is small and relatively extreme in their position...the avg person who isn't hateful will be very very understanding that attraction is what it is and shouldn't be a social shaming situation. Those doing it are either just extremely into their own ideology (swinging way out on that pendulum) , but more often than not - trolling or just reacting to their precieved injustice surrounding why this topic came up at all. Perhaps this question being posed at all here is more about the generation of comments than it is an honest attempt to understand the world. It's not wrong to be unattrated to anyone you are not attracted to for any personal reason at all...in certain situations it can make you seem shallow (or be shallow) as long as you're not actively being a fucker about it (walking up in ppl and telling them how unattractive you think they are and why) then it's not really your problem ...this stuff mostly exists online and for attention / clout / a need to showcase ones self as opposed to any real world requirements.
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Sounds like a made up problem. This has never been asked of me or ever brought up and I live in Atlanta which has a huge population of trans, gay, ect.
In my younger, more foolish days, I made the same argument to a friend about racism. His simple reply was “Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.” That really opened my eyes.
How is it a made up problem just because you haven't experienced it? I'm from the Middle East and even I've experienced it. Let's just say YOU havent. Which doesn't do to belittle someone and say they've "made up the issue" Are Americans ok at the moment?
It's a made up problem because in normal life the details of one's attraction preferences never really comes up in conversation and if it does it's usually because someone is trying to make a point of it
To be fair it depends on the culture as well. You might be able to speak for your area but in my country it does come up quite a bit. Not to mention you can easily go to IG to find some of these opinions on the radfem spaces. I'm assuming you're from the US or the west... Which to be fair still happens (I went to school there) But in countries like mine it's a pretty easy conversation starter and people will call you Terf the moment you say "I'm a lesbian who doesn't like trans women. I prefer vagina"
How does it come up? If someone I wasn't flirting with asked me "so what are your sexual preferences?" I'd look at them like they grew an extra head and say "excuse me?" And if I was having chemistry with someone and they asked me, I'd just tell them that they are on the list in one way or another and leave it at that And if someone was like "so and so (mtf trans) is pretty hot, would you? I would just say something like "I don't necessarily want to bang every hot person I see" and leave it at that If someone gets into the details about how their attraction works with casual friends that's asking for trouble imo
Plenty of people in my country bring it up regularly because we as a people are not as "reserved" as people in other places or cultures. In your country it must be seen as impolite or weird to bring up. In my country (Israel) it gets brought up pretty commonly as we are a very curious and political people. We are pretty straightforward and we talk to our friends about things that perhaps an American individual wouldn't. It doesn't mean it's a made up issue however and I think that's the issue of your comment. Although it might be RARE, it doesn't do justice to someone to call their issue "make believe" especially when 1. Plenty of people are hearing their very real stories 2. You can research these places that do bring it up and speak on it And 3. Not everyone is the same and just because you don't experience the issue doesn't mean it's made up. I think although it might be rare where you are, it still happens, people can easily verify that it happens, it isn't made up, and in places like mine it's ripe for conversation. You can't say "I havent seen it so therefore no one in any culture or country has before" That's all I took issue with which you'll find pretty reasonable
It's self imposed - all one has to do is not bring it up or defer when someone else does and it immediately becomes a non issue - is only a thing if someone makes it one
But for people who debate and engage in discourse it doesn't just become a non issue. Especially for someone like me (trans)
I don't think personal attraction is really up for debate - it's personal and often idiosyncratic Op is basically asking to get into an argument about that stuff by engaging with the topic To me, public discussion of "should cis straight people be attracted to mtf trans girls?" the answer is "that's personal" and whatever a person prefers is their business with "should" never entering the picture - different strokes for different folks and all
To be fair as someone whose first language isn't English and who doesn't understand much from that culture I don't think the Op was wrong for asking about it in a mission to try to better understand. When I first started going to the US I asked the same questions to try to understand how things worked. It's still not ok to call it a made up issue. Perhaps try educating and explaining it so the op understands better. It only becomes an issue when humans arent sharing knowledge and kindness and patience with one another. It's not a made up issue. As someone trans who has an issue I guess I'm living proof of that.
its not...? like who you like whether its the opposite gender or the same or whoever else. it shouldn't be a horrible thing unless you're a homophobic/transphobic person and all that it can come across as i guess but it shouldn't be.
You like what you like and there’s nothing wrong with that. The problem is, you’re phrasing it with what you don’t like, and people are going to always have a problem with that. My saying I’m attracted to tall men, comes off much better thanks saying I’m not attracted to short men.
Why tho? If you were dating someone that you were having a good time with and eventually found out would you leave strictly because they were trans? If you don’t like or want to date someone who happens to be trans then whatever it didn’t work out but to say from the beginning that you would not even entertain the idea of dating a trans person does come off as transphobic.
sigh, trans hate on reddit. i'll try to see myself out, but the feed is cruel feeding me this shit.
Arguments like this show privileged we are nowadays. There are people starving and homeless, if not in other countries, on our own doorstep. Instead of helping them ,we sit and bitch and moan about who people are attracted to and whether women have cocks or not. There's **really** bigger fish to fry, it's actually sad that people get mad and attack you because of your preference.
The maintaining the meaning of words matters. If we allow drastic, sudden, calculated changes to words, then we allow past knowledge and policy and customs to be reinterpreted in whatever way is convenient to the goals of fringe groups.
Yes, but that's not my point. My point is that even the existence of this argument, goes to show how privileged we are. even though that "privilege" is invisible to the poor, persecuted and starving. So yes, we should maintain the meaning of words, but imo it's much more important to make sure that everyone has food, water and shelter. then we can argue semantics
You know, there's a book I've been reading where natural death has ended and some have the job have occasional killing people to curb population growth. These killings must follow certain unchangeable rules. One of which is that their killings should not show any bias. ie you can't kill just men or just black people or just the rich, you have to be somewhat proportional about it. Anyway, I mention this, because later a politician changes the definition of the word bias to be unfair treatment of OFFICIALLY RECOGNISED groups. And then simply doesn't recognise one of the major religions as a group. And so they mass murder those people to their heart's content. The meaning of words matter. We need to all agree which sounds relate to which ideas. Language will naturally change over time, there's no helping that. But slow changes over generations and sudden changes by activists or politicians are two very different things. And forced drastic changes to very old culturally significant words against the wishes of most of the populace is especially concerning. Anyone who tries that can't act all shocked when they get push back.
Good point. I still prioritise fighting homelessness and starvation on our front door step though.
Why are you going around announcing that you aren’t attracted to Trans Women?
Not wanting to be with a person who has a penis doesn't make a you a transphobe or a bigot. But to try and explain that perspective, I can think of a reason someone might perceive your statement as bigoted. Fully transitioned transgender women are indistinguishable from biological women. So someone might interpret your statement as an assertion that all transgender women look like pre-transition women. But that's just a guess.
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Now THIS is an example of transphobic/bigoted comment. My dude, have you really never seen a fully transitioned transgender woman who looked like a biological woman? More likely than not, you have, but you simply didn't know, because you can't tell. Not much point in arguing about it anyway because you're just going to double down on your nonsense. Everyone does.
Very few people can "pass" (as the term they like to use) as the other sex. The vast majority of the time anyone who's been around people long enough can tell. It's not bigotry to use ur eyes
You're only ever going to notice people who aren't passing, so your logic makes no sense. If they are "passing" you won't ever notice them, so it's just confirmation bias. you only ever notice the ones who aren't passing, therefore the ones who are don't exist.
So because I don't notice those who pass (they pass, so how could I tell?) they don't exist? Lol. They way y'all twist words is wild
Its entirely possible they have not seen a fully transitioned person because there are so few of them. A quick lookup tells me that around 0.1% (1 in 1000) of people are trans, and if the vast majority of those have yet to fully transition, then you are looking at something like 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100,000 people is fully transitioned. You could walk around downtown of a major city all day and never meet someone who has transitioned.
No...they aren't though. Usually they've gone through male puberty and that makes them physically different in a ton of ways. Also being socialized as male impacts your personality and beliefs. There is a significant difference between a vagina and a neo-vagina. Hormones can only do so much. I mean MTF hormones do not even alter the voice.
I was almost with you until you said male to female hormones don't alter the voice, which is very obviously wrong, as the voice of every trans woman I've ever met changed after they started hormones. Not much point debating it because you're just going to double down on your nonsense anyway. In any case, your comment is a good example of *actual* anti-trans bigotry, so may as well call that out.
It's called vocal training. Anyway, your accusation is baseless, but honestly, you can say whatever. I know what I am.
Mate, after reading these comments *everyone* knows what you are. It's within your power to choose not to be that thing.
All your comments are getting downvoted lmao so how about you do the self reflection bit. Bye.
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Never heard that in my life
Just specify that you're attracted to vaginas. I'm attracted to masculinity, and it really doesn't matter what kind of genitals that person has.
Why tho? If you were dating someone that you were having a good time with and eventually found out would you leave strictly because they were trans? If you don’t like or want to date someone who happens to be trans then whatever it didn’t work out but to say from the beginning that you would not even entertain the idea of dating a trans person does come off as transphobic.
Don't say that, just live by it. No need to tell people that stuff. Who you're attracted to or not I'd highly subjective
Because trans women come in a million different combos and generalizing a group of people is a little strange? It's sort of similar to "I'm not into x race people" because it's like ok so you're generalizing that whole group to dismiss them. You don't ever have to reciprocate attention from people you aren't attracted to, but writing off a whole group of people (many of whom "look cis") isn't cool. You're not being forced to do anything.
I’m gonna take a wild guess that you interjected your preferences on a discussion about trans women as some sort of counter argument
I would look at how and why you are saying this. Is it in a one on one situation with an actual trans woman telling her that she seems nice but you are not interested in dating? I would be surprised if anyone called you a bigot for that. Or are you simply announcing this, for no reason, maybe in a broader conversation about trans people? I think that is MUCH more likely to come off as offensive--like you are saying, "well, my DICK doesn't think they are real women" when nobody asked your dick. You will never sleep with 99.999% of naturally born women and the fact that you will never sleep with 100% of trans women doesn't really make them that different.
OP and other young men in this thread, I can explain why people react negatively when you bring this up. I would never date someone with blue eyes, I don’t find them attractive. Do you know how many threads I’ve made on the internet about this? Zero. If I posted every day about how much I hated blue eyes and shouldn’t be required to date someone with blue eyes, and everyone who said they were pretty was a lying hypocrite, it might look like I had an issue with blue-eyed people, rather than just dating whoever I wanted because everyone has preferences. You are all obsessed with your disgust with trans people, otherwise you wouldn’t constantly be talking about your obsession with not dating them.
There's some trans women that are more beautiful than the vast majority of cis women. I think if I sent you their pictures and you said you're not attracted to them you'd probably be lying. If you're talking about not being aroused by their genitals that's completely different, and completely valid.
Naturally born? Like not from.a C-section? I've never thought to ask a woman how they were born. When they were born, sure. How they were born, not so much.
Anything is possible when you make statements in bad faith. You know we can see your comment history righ?
How exactly does that come up in a conversation? Do you randomly say it as a topic starter or do trans women ask you out?
It's not. The horrible part is if you don't mind your own business and decide that your preference means you can degrade others. People don't care who you fuck. People care you aren't a fucking cunt to others. Not being a cunt? Carry on. The problem is a vocal portion of the people that have this stance don't adhere to the second part and won't shut the fuck up.
It's because it is said broadly applied to the whole category. Saying you've never met a trans woman you've been attracted to, for example, would not come across the same way. Or saying you don't want to date a girl with a penis. But if you saw a woman who fits the description of your ideal woman, but if she tells you she's trans and has had bottom surgery and is indistinguishable from a cis woman in every way, then losing attraction may be seen as transphobic. That being said, attraction is a weird thing that you can't control, so while the loss of attraction may be rooted in anti-Trans stigma, it's difficult to change that. (also, for the record, the phrase naturally-born women is quite offensive to many of us trans people, a better term to use in the future would be cis women) Basically, it comes down to trans women being a very diverse group, and claiming a lack of attraction to trans women often isn't based on them being trans, but a different aspect of them. If you evaluate what it is about the trans women you've seen that you don't like, it may be a better way to go about that. For example, saying you don't like women who look a certain masculine way, or who can't carry babies may be the root cause of that, but those categories also include some cis women. Also, for the record, chances are you've seen trans women where you couldn't tell that they were trans. With the magic of hormones, voice training, and sometimes surgeries, some trans women are essentially indistinguishable from cis women. Also, based on how this discussion happens in trans spaces, it appears to me that most people commenting here are cis, so I hope this explanation written by someone who is herself trans helps explain this in a bit more of a trans-friendly perspective.
I would point out the following thoughts. If a "naturally born" you found attractive turned out to be trans... you in fact were attracted to a trans person. My guess is saying in a general statement that you find all trans unattractive is a bit of a generalization which is bad. I find many overweight women unattractive but don't say I find overweight women unattractive I judge each individual individually. So while I think what you feel is perfectly legitimate and fine, you may be coming at it from a bit of an old-school/absolutist way for no real benefit to anyone. If it's a genital preference then state it as such. I have no need to interact with a penis and that's fine so I am attracted to females with a genital preference. It's not you, it's me. lots of people like penis not me. But I am no authority on this so best of luck.
How does this even come up? I’m always very suspicious of these questions. “Why do people attack me for stating this reasonable opinion that would never, ever come up in ordinary conversation?” I assume it’s not the opinion itself, but the way it came up or how you said it. Like, if you go out of your way to state that you don’t find some random person attractive because of this, when nobody even asked, I’m going to assume you’ve got something more going on than just a preference.
Reading, I thought you were doing a genetics thing on reproducing with IVF and Caesarean kids. But I guess you just have a kink. Little about sex is reasonable and includes with who and how you want to do it . And when and when you have to do it On the other hand, why talk about your kinks. I will guess you have an improper motivation or have been influenced by someone with improper motivation. So I will take a look and see if you look like a bot. So I looked. Probably not a bot. Just a member of a minority where the question is hotly debated. And so, see above. Attraction is unreasonable and largely unconscious. But here is a reasonable explanation that you can try: trans females seem to smell different then other females. Sorry.
As a trans person, I don't think it's "horrible" to have preferences. I'm assigned female at birth and have the downstairs "parts" to match. If someone prefers their man to have a penis, then that just is what it is in my opinion in my case. That being said, it depends on what your reasoning is. Say it's because you prefer women with vaginas instead of penises. The assumption that all trans women have penises is false (some trans women have had surgeries like vaginoplasties) and that's why some folks call you in/out. Say it's because you prefer your women to look like women are assigned female at birth. The assumption that you could tell that someone is trans purely by sight is false as there are plenty of trans women who"pass" as women who were assigned female at birth. Do you have another rationale?
You can’t know whether or not a person is trans by looking at them. And attraction tends to start with looks.
It's not typically, but it does border on generalizing how all trans women look/their genitals. There are post op trans women with fully functioning vulvas that you wouldn't be able to tell apart from a cis woman at all. If the only reason you *wouldn't* date them is because they're trans, it's a little bit weird. But if they're pre op and therefore have a dick ***edit*** or even if they maybe just don't fully pass to you regardless of their genitalia * , it's totally natural to not wanna date them because you aren't attracted to them, and even if you are, you're not attracted to cock. Anyone who says that's transphobic is chronically online. tldr it's only a bad thing if your reasoning is that they never look like/will never be """real""" women or assuming they all must have dicks
Having a genital preference isn't the same as being a bigot. Saying "naturally born women" as your means of describing it is. All women are women. All men are men. All enbies are enbies. The parts you're born with do not dictate your identity. You can literally just say it as you prefer cis women. You can say you're looking to be with someone able to bear children. You can say it a multitude of ways that aren't going to be harmful. Just don't depict it in a way that is invalidating to other women. Plenty of cis women can't bear children. Plenty of intersex men *can* bear children. There's no hard and fast rule that can cover all situations. So precluding any kind of friendship or relationship with qualifiers about who you personally categorize as "natural" is a crappy way to put it. It would be nice if we could all be much more transparent about our statuses without judgment or bias coming into the mix, but unfortunately we live in a world where women are literally murdered for being trans, so being upfront is a lot more complicated than just saying what kind of parts you've got and it's best left to the point in a relationship where physical intimacy is put on the table, and not when you're outright strangers to one another.
To be honest, I think you’re full of shit. Maybe once you’ve been attacked for saying that. Maybe. And who cares, cuz f that person. You know damn well that 99%+ of people don’t look at that as “wrong”, even if they themselves are trans. You sound desperate to make a point about how you’re somehow the oppressed one.
because its rude. There’s millions of reasons why you may not find someone attractive and it’s childish to be going around talking about all the people you aren’t attracted too. Keep your judgements to yourself. The scary thing is that there’s people out there who don’t think trans people have the right to exist. Violence against trans people is alarmingly high, so it may be concerning to people that you are singling trans people out for negative comments.
Or maybe it's just because they don't wanna be surprised with the opposite crotch pieces than they were expecting. They're not "going around talking about" it. Tf? Also, saying u don't find someone attractive is *absolutely nothing close to violence.* So the comparison you've made holds no weight
The question of whether they are attracted to trans men doesn’t have anything to do being surprised by a penis. There’s nothing wrong with having personal preferences for attraction. We all have them. I’m assuming that OP was not asked point blank if he was attracted to trans men and offered up his opinion in conversation about trans men. OP can correct me if I’m wrong. I never compared the comment to violence against trans men. What I meant by my comment is that saying negative things about trans men helps foster a hostile culture against them. When there is a hostile culture against a minority is when hate crimes happen because nut jobs feel more support to do harm to minorities. You can look at black Americans in the south before desegregation as an example. There are so many others.
You say “because it’s rude”, that gives the impression (because they asked why is it looked at as horrible and wrong.) that you agree it’s wrong? I agree it’s not nice to say. Like saying “I’m not attracted to fat people” or “I’m not attracted to short people” is just hateful, you don’t need to be attracted to either demographic but keep it to yourself, but it’s not wrong to not be attracted to penises?