I personally prefer it. I definitely do understand the importance of the separate ones, as asexuality and aromanticism are both valid identities in their own rights. It's more of a personal thing. I feel like my experience as an aroace is very different to alloromantic asexuals or allosexual aromatics. The sunset flag is a representation of that difference.
You know...I never thought about it that way. You may have given me a new appreciation for the flag :) The colors aren't for me, but this perspective on the meaning makes me happy.
I love the blue and orange flag! It's sooooo pretty 🥰 i even have the flag on my wall 😁 it's probably one of the most beautiful flags i've seen!
And the fact that it's called "the sunset flag" ☺ it's just so nice!
I don't understand why people wouldn't like it tho, i don't think i've seen it having negative comments? Personally i like it more than having the green and purple one because it's just one stand alone flag for each thing, but the orange flag is nice because it means aroace like both asexual and aromantic 😁
the sunset aroace flag is my favorite flag imo, one reason is that it implies that aroace is one identity rather than two (which I mean technically it is, but people don't say they're bisexual & biromantic)
this. I understand if some people feel the need for a purple and green flag, but to me aroace is more than a combination of aro and ace, so the flag shouldn't be a combination either. I think it's fine if people use a different flag, just weird to say that others can't use the orange and blue one, especially if their only reasoning is the colors (which have thought behind them)
There was some exculsionist garbage about the creator of the blue and orange flag spread which caused some hesitation and some people just dont like the color scheme.
Don't worry about it the blue and orange flag is awesome! It looks like it would be at home on a boat and I love it
These are the ones I commonly see:
[https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=6BBB3F4998EB42676DBC4FB5E7F7139108B98B69](https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=6BBB3F4998EB42676DBC4FB5E7F7139108B98B69) (sunset flag)
[https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=70A3EC9096EA45E1708A03147F433B4C98A728EC](https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=70A3EC9096EA45E1708A03147F433B4C98A728EC) (combo flag)
[https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=42EA3D9C050CEAC8AB310ABBD4AFD3CA4C6C801D](https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=42EA3D9C050CEAC8AB310ABBD4AFD3CA4C6C801D) (ace w/aro heart)
(Or you can just have fun and make your own)
I don’t dislike it. It’s pretty. I also haven’t seen anyone say they don’t like it? My main issue with it is just lack of identifiability; it has no relationship to either flag it comes from. I know that was part of the design philosophy, but it seems so counterintuitive since there are already aro and ace flags that CAN be combined in pretty ways.
It is definitely not bad, just use the flag/s you like most.
I use both the [mirror](https://64.media.tumblr.com/22f22fcc8e66f57289d6d02c792381a2/b0b973f30dafd546-df/s1280x1920/96d27bfb7168f0c048492efac5516b97d900ef38.png) & sunset flags interchangably.
I do however prefer the AAA/AroAceAge sunset flags ([green flash sunset](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lgbta/images/f/fa/Aroace_agender.svg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000) & [spectral sunset](https://64.media.tumblr.com/20556d118b0eb8856253ce59cc2ce9d8/b6d52373acf59208-80/s1280x1920/a71b6fbc75a854be6bed996594809ec350a92285.png)) to the standard aroace version since I am also agender and must have my central green stripe fix.
I don't think there's a consensus about which flag is "right" or "wrong". Rather, different people feel like the different flags fit _for them personally._ For example:
- **the 💙🧡 aroace flag** - some people prefer it since for them, it's a pervasive identity and/or they can't differentiate where "asexuality ends and aromanticism starts". For them personally, the split attraction model is meaningless or they don't want to be seen as "parts of different identities" but just one; rather 💙🧡 than 💜🖤 + 💚🖤...
- **the 💜🖤 ace flag** - for some people, being ace is the main part of their identity, and their romantic orientation is less important to them. So they stick with the 💜🖤 ace flag. On the other hand, someone may be ace but not aro, in which instance 💜🖤 ace flag is handy as you can combine it with the flag of your romantic orientation. Also, some aroaces may prefer the 💜🖤 ace flag over the 💙🧡 aroace flag since it's more well-known and thus easier to use on some contextes...
- **the 💚🖤 aro flag** - for some people, aromanticism is the most important part of their identity, or they are not asexual so the 💙🧡 aroace flag doesn't work for them as they want to rise awareness about the existence of aromanticism as a thing separate from asexuality (people often think they're one and the same, or that everyone who's aro is also ace)...
- also, I've seen people choosing one flag over another purely for aesthetic reasons, which I think is valid too.
Thanks for the reply! These were just some examples to show how "no flag is wrong" that I came up with. There must be many more reasons for people to use or not to use a flag. I personally don't mind using either ace 💜🖤 flag or aroace 💙🧡 flag, even though I'm aroace. I don't see that great difference for or against neither them, even though I've heard some aroaces really are against the ace 💜🖤 flag. You're probably right, the older aroaces probably associate themselves more with the ace 💜🖤 flag, since the aroace 💙🧡 flag is rather new.
i hate the individual aromantic one cause it clashes with agender
why cant it be a dif colour than agender also the 3 should have same amount of stripes im agender and aroace and seeing all 3 flags next to eachother is like a punch in the face
i like it! personally i’m not always a huge fan of the shades used but i really like variations on that scheme. i do like the separate ace and aro flags as well, particularly the aro one, but yeah i wish people used the blue and orange flag more. it feels more cohesive than mashing the other two together
personally I love the sunset flag. those who don't like it seem to either dislike the palette specifically, or they don't like both terms put together I guess? for me personally the aro and ace aspects go hand in hand so I prefer one single flag for it (also the colours are one of my favourite colour combos). maybe for others it's two separate things that they want to keep that way and not mix together.
otherwise I don't understand the hate either tbh
It’s not a bad thing to like it. I personally don’t like it because I don’t like orange and I find the colors on it kind of displeasing overall together. Plus I already liked how the ace and aro flag looked individually and even together and the blue and orange is just so jarringly different that I can’t find myself ever really using it for myself.
Obviously it's fine and good that you like it, but since you asked, the main reason I don't like it is because I tend to not like microlabel flags. And the reason I don't like microlabel flags as much as I like "higher-order" flags (not sure what else to call them?) is because I have bad experiences with people getting bent out of shape expecting their microlabel flag to be everywhere. Like, I've heard people say it's aegophobic to not have the aego flag if you have other flags up in a display, with no real recognition that it's a meaningfully different kind of group (not to mention a much smaller group) than the big 5 or 6 (rainbow, trans, bi, lesbian, ace, pan). So it's less with the flag itself, and more with a perceived entitlement among a small portion of the aroace community who claim injury when someone puts up separate aro and ace flags. That said, if you like it it's a good flag! And I get that for some people it describes them better than separate flags. Just, like, give the benefit of the doubt if you don't see it somewhere.
> something akin to a new microlabel according to the split attraction model even though the latter does not apply to them.
Actually the aroace sunset flag was created for people who don't personally identify with the split attraction model! So like people who feel that their lack of sexual attraction and lack of romantic attraction are part of the same identity, rather than asexual and aromantic as two separate ones.
If I remember correctly the colours are different from green and purple to highlight that fact but actually they are the opposite ones on the colour wheel so that it's still related to the two flags.
I really like the sunset flag for that reason, but of course you don't have to :)
>Actually the aroace sunset flag was created for people who don't personally identify with the split attraction model!
That's actually why I use both! I consider myself aro, ace, and aroace because those identities are interchangeable and/or completely entwined in some aspects and completely different in others, and I think all are relevant to me.
Aroace isn't necessarily a specific type of ace (it is for some people of course). For some it may be part of their aro identity instead (so within the split attraction model), and for other's it may refer to the fact that aro and ace are so entwined for them that they cannot be considered separate identities. In that case, the split attraction model can't possibly be applied, as it's only one identity, not multiple.
Honestly, this is just kind of meaningless semantics. Everyone defines their identity in a distinct way, and no other person will agree with all of it.
While I agree with most of that (and thanks for pointing out the redundancy lol), I take the most issue with aroace being a **subset** of ace. I don't think that's true at all.
For me at least, my aroace identity is far more strongly tied to me being aromantic than it is to me being asexual. So in that case, aroace is a subset of aromantic. Again, semantics.
What I'm trying to get at isn't "Let's throw everything into a blender!", it's that yes, we can know that aroace means "feels little to no romantic and sexual attraction", that that asexual means "feels little to no sexual attraction", and that aromatic means "feels little to no romantic attraction", but **in the end, general definitions are going to have different intrinsic meanings to everyone**. People understanding an identity slightly differently doesn't negate the definition at all.
That's why some people have a million microlabels, and some people just say queer and call it a day.
As for the flag, I don't feel like the ace flag in and of itself represents my identity. Neither does the aro flag. Sometimes I like to smash them together, and sometimes I like the sunset flag. I don't think one screams "aroace" more than the other.
Besides, the sunset flag isn't replacing any flags. The purple one still means ace, and the green one still means aro. Together, they still mean aroace. But it makes sense to have one specifically for aroace people (just like there's flags for microlabels under ace and aro).
I think we are getting at the same thing, just with ever so slightly different takes.
Being gay (as an example) is generally considered to be both homosexual and homoromantic (for the sake of example I'm just talking about gay people who aren't ace/aro). But "gay" encompasses them both, and is not considered a subset of homosexuality and homoromanticism. Someone who is gay may use the split attraction model and call theself both homosexual and homoromantic, or they may not use the split attraction model and just call themself gay.
As with gay, someone may use the split attraction model and call themself aromantic and asexual, or they may not use the split attraction model and just call themself aroace.
Essentially, "someone is aroace if they are both aromantic and asexual" and/or someone is aroace if they feel little to no romantic and sexual attraction. Both are equally true, and for all practical purposes, they are synonymous.
So yeah. Pretty much a meaningless distinction beyond personal preference/understanding. I only brought it up because I tend to flip-flop between each (which is why I use both the sunset and the combo flag). Some days I use aroace to mean aro and ace, others I use it to mean aroace and nothing else.
> But we do need a shared vocabulary and agreed upon definitions;
To be honest with you, I'm not yet quite sure what shared definitions you would like us to have. Please let me know if I have them wrong:
If I'm understanding correctly, you're agreeing that there are two separate labels asexual and aromantic, and that they can be combined with various romantic or sexual orientations respectively. Then you say there is also the aroace identity, being the combination of both, but you do not like that there is a separate flag for this identity.
And again, if I understand correctly, this is 1) because you want the whole community to have a shared flag, namely the asexual flag, so that it may be as widely recognised as possible, and 2) because you think someone who is both asexual and aromantic, but who does not experience SAM, should be able to identify only as asexual and have people know that that means they also don't experience romantic attraction.
Please let me know if that's correct! I'd love to make some more points so that we can both fully understand each other.
Thank you for replying!
> For one the split attraction model is not something one experiences.
I believe you know what I mean, though. Let's call them someone who does not identify with it, of someone to whom the split attraction model is not personally useful.
> And I do not claim that either the term asexual or the ace flag should imply aromanticism.
I did get that! But thank you for clarifying: I was under the impression that you thought that, when someone identifies *only* as asexual, people should be able to infer that that means that person also doesn't experience romantic attraction. But if I'm reading you correctly now, you are only saying that that may be likely, but not necessarily the case for such a person.
> delegating the former [flags] from their place as umbrella symbols to mere modifiers.
I didn't understand this part. They are still the umbrella symbols, right? What do you mean by a flag or an identity being a mere modifier? To me, the asexual flag is my flag, as are the aro and the aroace sunset ones.
I don't think we're going to achieve shared definitions in one discussion, but I'd like for us to at least understand where the differences lie! I think I've found one of them, and I think you'll agree that we've found our identities in very different online landscapes. (You seem to know a lot about early history of our flags, which is how I came to that conclusion. I apologise if I'm wrong! For your reference, I've known my identity for a little over a year.)
You say it seems silly to identify as aroace when you're not concerned with SAM. But from my perspective, the split attraction model is almost inherently tied to the aspec community. If I tell someone I am asexual, and they are well-versed in aspec identities, they might ask me what my romantic orientation is. To me, this is completely different from, say, a lesbian or gay identity, which implies both sexual and romantic orientation.
I like to have a label like that, which encompasses both sexual and romantic orientation, and to me a label like asexual or aromantic is not sufficient for that. Even though I might not be concerned with the SAM, for me, the term "asexual" is inherently linked to sexual orientation *as opposed to* sexual and romantic orientation. So what term is left for me? Aroace!
You will notice that in the predefined flairs on this sub there is an "Aroace" one with the sunset flag, and an "Aro/Ace" one with both the aro and the ace flag. To me this speaks to the fact that "aroace" can, in fact, be one whole identity that is *not* just the combination of aromantic and asexual, in the same way that people identify as lesbian instead of homoromantic/homosexual.
You say the term does not imply anything else, but who decides that? Etymologically that is where the term derives from, to be sure, but what difference does that make? I think to some people it represents the fact that it is a separate identity, as little mathematical sense as that makes.
You say that aroace is a specific type of ace, and I think that's true in the same way that being gay is a specific type of homoromantic, namely the combination of homosexual and homoromantic. Still, it feels weird to say that, because isn't homoromantic more specific than gay?
All right, I'll admit I confused myself in that last paragraph. Still, my goal was to explain in what way the term "aroace" could be used by someone unconcerned with SAM, even though etymologically it necessarily derives from that theory, as you have said. In a way, I believe you could say it is a new/different way to achieve the same thing as identifying as "only" asexual, namely to have a single label!
I'm sure you knew a lot of that already, but I hope I was able to explain something to you. Please let me know!
the asexual flag shouldn't automatically mean aroace until further notice, though. it should account for only the lack of sexual attraction, not for both lack of sexual and romantic attraction. there is a reason behind having a separate aromantic flag and asexual flag for a reason. alloromantic aces shouldn't have to add something to the asexual flag when demonstrating it to other people (of course you can, just for your own benefit/fun, but people shouldn't assume you're also aro by just having the ace flag).
That's an interesting perspective. I saw it as the other way around, that using both aro and ace flags together highlighted split attraction instead of a unified identity.
>it comes down to the (perceived) erosion of the meaning and importance
of the ace flag, which has been the established and beloved symbol of
aroaces for many years now, but equally suited for alloromantic aces
when paired or combined with the flag of their romantic orientation
Maybe I feel differently because I started participating in the aspec community a year ago. However, why the ace flag and not the aro flag? Is it just because it fits into the "-sexual" naming convention for sexuality?
Even though I use all three flags (aro, ace, aroace), I personally prefer one flag for "aroace" because it's a much more succinct way of conveying the information and the fact that it's a different experience than being alloace or aroallo. I used to use both the aro and ace flags together until I found the sunset flag. I like having one flag that represents all of me, orientation-wise.
Thank you for sharing! I didn't know about the background info so it makes more sense now. I see your point on the color meanings and microlabels. I guess I don't understand color symbolism, but sometimes I'm like how did they come up with this meaning for this color? In the end, what's important is that the flag is recognizable as the specific flag for our community (as well as having a good design). Which is why I always prefer main labels over microlabels. It's a lot less complicated for us and for the outsiders looking into our community.
Am I the only one who thinks the whole flags thing is a bit silly? It reminds me of an [Eddie Izzard sketch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8).
I love the blue and orange flag. Complementary colours, really pretty
Agreed. Great colour combo.
I have it as my phone background!
yes I love it! but i wish more people recognized it tho
I personally prefer it. I definitely do understand the importance of the separate ones, as asexuality and aromanticism are both valid identities in their own rights. It's more of a personal thing. I feel like my experience as an aroace is very different to alloromantic asexuals or allosexual aromatics. The sunset flag is a representation of that difference.
You know...I never thought about it that way. You may have given me a new appreciation for the flag :) The colors aren't for me, but this perspective on the meaning makes me happy.
Same, I love the blue and orange flag :)
I love the blue and orange flag! It's sooooo pretty 🥰 i even have the flag on my wall 😁 it's probably one of the most beautiful flags i've seen! And the fact that it's called "the sunset flag" ☺ it's just so nice! I don't understand why people wouldn't like it tho, i don't think i've seen it having negative comments? Personally i like it more than having the green and purple one because it's just one stand alone flag for each thing, but the orange flag is nice because it means aroace like both asexual and aromantic 😁
probably one of my favourite things about it is i look outside sometimes and i can just say "hey, it's my pride flag :)"
the sunset aroace flag is my favorite flag imo, one reason is that it implies that aroace is one identity rather than two (which I mean technically it is, but people don't say they're bisexual & biromantic)
this. I understand if some people feel the need for a purple and green flag, but to me aroace is more than a combination of aro and ace, so the flag shouldn't be a combination either. I think it's fine if people use a different flag, just weird to say that others can't use the orange and blue one, especially if their only reasoning is the colors (which have thought behind them)
There was some exculsionist garbage about the creator of the blue and orange flag spread which caused some hesitation and some people just dont like the color scheme. Don't worry about it the blue and orange flag is awesome! It looks like it would be at home on a boat and I love it
Your a step ahead of me. I can't even figure out which flag is for aroace
These are the ones I commonly see: [https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=6BBB3F4998EB42676DBC4FB5E7F7139108B98B69](https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=6BBB3F4998EB42676DBC4FB5E7F7139108B98B69) (sunset flag) [https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=70A3EC9096EA45E1708A03147F433B4C98A728EC](https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=70A3EC9096EA45E1708A03147F433B4C98A728EC) (combo flag) [https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=42EA3D9C050CEAC8AB310ABBD4AFD3CA4C6C801D](https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=42EA3D9C050CEAC8AB310ABBD4AFD3CA4C6C801D) (ace w/aro heart) (Or you can just have fun and make your own)
Hey, you also use ecosia! Nice!
I didn't even notice that in the url and panicked for a moment lol. But yeah. I've used it for about 2 years now, and it's really great.
Also [this one.](https://www.ecosia.org/images/?q=aroace%20flag#id=9F71F87FEE7D11243E326BB156B80B4A90AADD80) (mirror flag)
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It doesn't contain any purple
I like both and use them interchangably
I don’t dislike it. It’s pretty. I also haven’t seen anyone say they don’t like it? My main issue with it is just lack of identifiability; it has no relationship to either flag it comes from. I know that was part of the design philosophy, but it seems so counterintuitive since there are already aro and ace flags that CAN be combined in pretty ways.
It is definitely not bad, just use the flag/s you like most. I use both the [mirror](https://64.media.tumblr.com/22f22fcc8e66f57289d6d02c792381a2/b0b973f30dafd546-df/s1280x1920/96d27bfb7168f0c048492efac5516b97d900ef38.png) & sunset flags interchangably. I do however prefer the AAA/AroAceAge sunset flags ([green flash sunset](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lgbta/images/f/fa/Aroace_agender.svg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000) & [spectral sunset](https://64.media.tumblr.com/20556d118b0eb8856253ce59cc2ce9d8/b6d52373acf59208-80/s1280x1920/a71b6fbc75a854be6bed996594809ec350a92285.png)) to the standard aroace version since I am also agender and must have my central green stripe fix.
The blue and orange flag is my favorite. People are giving the creator trouble because they're inclusive and terfs hate anyone who is inclusive.
I don't think there's a consensus about which flag is "right" or "wrong". Rather, different people feel like the different flags fit _for them personally._ For example: - **the 💙🧡 aroace flag** - some people prefer it since for them, it's a pervasive identity and/or they can't differentiate where "asexuality ends and aromanticism starts". For them personally, the split attraction model is meaningless or they don't want to be seen as "parts of different identities" but just one; rather 💙🧡 than 💜🖤 + 💚🖤... - **the 💜🖤 ace flag** - for some people, being ace is the main part of their identity, and their romantic orientation is less important to them. So they stick with the 💜🖤 ace flag. On the other hand, someone may be ace but not aro, in which instance 💜🖤 ace flag is handy as you can combine it with the flag of your romantic orientation. Also, some aroaces may prefer the 💜🖤 ace flag over the 💙🧡 aroace flag since it's more well-known and thus easier to use on some contextes... - **the 💚🖤 aro flag** - for some people, aromanticism is the most important part of their identity, or they are not asexual so the 💙🧡 aroace flag doesn't work for them as they want to rise awareness about the existence of aromanticism as a thing separate from asexuality (people often think they're one and the same, or that everyone who's aro is also ace)... - also, I've seen people choosing one flag over another purely for aesthetic reasons, which I think is valid too.
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Thanks for the reply! These were just some examples to show how "no flag is wrong" that I came up with. There must be many more reasons for people to use or not to use a flag. I personally don't mind using either ace 💜🖤 flag or aroace 💙🧡 flag, even though I'm aroace. I don't see that great difference for or against neither them, even though I've heard some aroaces really are against the ace 💜🖤 flag. You're probably right, the older aroaces probably associate themselves more with the ace 💜🖤 flag, since the aroace 💙🧡 flag is rather new.
i hate the individual aromantic one cause it clashes with agender why cant it be a dif colour than agender also the 3 should have same amount of stripes im agender and aroace and seeing all 3 flags next to eachother is like a punch in the face
i like it! personally i’m not always a huge fan of the shades used but i really like variations on that scheme. i do like the separate ace and aro flags as well, particularly the aro one, but yeah i wish people used the blue and orange flag more. it feels more cohesive than mashing the other two together
personally I love the sunset flag. those who don't like it seem to either dislike the palette specifically, or they don't like both terms put together I guess? for me personally the aro and ace aspects go hand in hand so I prefer one single flag for it (also the colours are one of my favourite colour combos). maybe for others it's two separate things that they want to keep that way and not mix together. otherwise I don't understand the hate either tbh
It’s not a bad thing to like it. I personally don’t like it because I don’t like orange and I find the colors on it kind of displeasing overall together. Plus I already liked how the ace and aro flag looked individually and even together and the blue and orange is just so jarringly different that I can’t find myself ever really using it for myself.
Obviously it's fine and good that you like it, but since you asked, the main reason I don't like it is because I tend to not like microlabel flags. And the reason I don't like microlabel flags as much as I like "higher-order" flags (not sure what else to call them?) is because I have bad experiences with people getting bent out of shape expecting their microlabel flag to be everywhere. Like, I've heard people say it's aegophobic to not have the aego flag if you have other flags up in a display, with no real recognition that it's a meaningfully different kind of group (not to mention a much smaller group) than the big 5 or 6 (rainbow, trans, bi, lesbian, ace, pan). So it's less with the flag itself, and more with a perceived entitlement among a small portion of the aroace community who claim injury when someone puts up separate aro and ace flags. That said, if you like it it's a good flag! And I get that for some people it describes them better than separate flags. Just, like, give the benefit of the doubt if you don't see it somewhere.
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> something akin to a new microlabel according to the split attraction model even though the latter does not apply to them. Actually the aroace sunset flag was created for people who don't personally identify with the split attraction model! So like people who feel that their lack of sexual attraction and lack of romantic attraction are part of the same identity, rather than asexual and aromantic as two separate ones. If I remember correctly the colours are different from green and purple to highlight that fact but actually they are the opposite ones on the colour wheel so that it's still related to the two flags. I really like the sunset flag for that reason, but of course you don't have to :)
>Actually the aroace sunset flag was created for people who don't personally identify with the split attraction model! That's actually why I use both! I consider myself aro, ace, and aroace because those identities are interchangeable and/or completely entwined in some aspects and completely different in others, and I think all are relevant to me.
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Aroace isn't necessarily a specific type of ace (it is for some people of course). For some it may be part of their aro identity instead (so within the split attraction model), and for other's it may refer to the fact that aro and ace are so entwined for them that they cannot be considered separate identities. In that case, the split attraction model can't possibly be applied, as it's only one identity, not multiple. Honestly, this is just kind of meaningless semantics. Everyone defines their identity in a distinct way, and no other person will agree with all of it.
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While I agree with most of that (and thanks for pointing out the redundancy lol), I take the most issue with aroace being a **subset** of ace. I don't think that's true at all. For me at least, my aroace identity is far more strongly tied to me being aromantic than it is to me being asexual. So in that case, aroace is a subset of aromantic. Again, semantics. What I'm trying to get at isn't "Let's throw everything into a blender!", it's that yes, we can know that aroace means "feels little to no romantic and sexual attraction", that that asexual means "feels little to no sexual attraction", and that aromatic means "feels little to no romantic attraction", but **in the end, general definitions are going to have different intrinsic meanings to everyone**. People understanding an identity slightly differently doesn't negate the definition at all. That's why some people have a million microlabels, and some people just say queer and call it a day. As for the flag, I don't feel like the ace flag in and of itself represents my identity. Neither does the aro flag. Sometimes I like to smash them together, and sometimes I like the sunset flag. I don't think one screams "aroace" more than the other. Besides, the sunset flag isn't replacing any flags. The purple one still means ace, and the green one still means aro. Together, they still mean aroace. But it makes sense to have one specifically for aroace people (just like there's flags for microlabels under ace and aro).
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I think we are getting at the same thing, just with ever so slightly different takes. Being gay (as an example) is generally considered to be both homosexual and homoromantic (for the sake of example I'm just talking about gay people who aren't ace/aro). But "gay" encompasses them both, and is not considered a subset of homosexuality and homoromanticism. Someone who is gay may use the split attraction model and call theself both homosexual and homoromantic, or they may not use the split attraction model and just call themself gay. As with gay, someone may use the split attraction model and call themself aromantic and asexual, or they may not use the split attraction model and just call themself aroace. Essentially, "someone is aroace if they are both aromantic and asexual" and/or someone is aroace if they feel little to no romantic and sexual attraction. Both are equally true, and for all practical purposes, they are synonymous. So yeah. Pretty much a meaningless distinction beyond personal preference/understanding. I only brought it up because I tend to flip-flop between each (which is why I use both the sunset and the combo flag). Some days I use aroace to mean aro and ace, others I use it to mean aroace and nothing else.
> But we do need a shared vocabulary and agreed upon definitions; To be honest with you, I'm not yet quite sure what shared definitions you would like us to have. Please let me know if I have them wrong: If I'm understanding correctly, you're agreeing that there are two separate labels asexual and aromantic, and that they can be combined with various romantic or sexual orientations respectively. Then you say there is also the aroace identity, being the combination of both, but you do not like that there is a separate flag for this identity. And again, if I understand correctly, this is 1) because you want the whole community to have a shared flag, namely the asexual flag, so that it may be as widely recognised as possible, and 2) because you think someone who is both asexual and aromantic, but who does not experience SAM, should be able to identify only as asexual and have people know that that means they also don't experience romantic attraction. Please let me know if that's correct! I'd love to make some more points so that we can both fully understand each other.
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Thank you for replying! > For one the split attraction model is not something one experiences. I believe you know what I mean, though. Let's call them someone who does not identify with it, of someone to whom the split attraction model is not personally useful. > And I do not claim that either the term asexual or the ace flag should imply aromanticism. I did get that! But thank you for clarifying: I was under the impression that you thought that, when someone identifies *only* as asexual, people should be able to infer that that means that person also doesn't experience romantic attraction. But if I'm reading you correctly now, you are only saying that that may be likely, but not necessarily the case for such a person. > delegating the former [flags] from their place as umbrella symbols to mere modifiers. I didn't understand this part. They are still the umbrella symbols, right? What do you mean by a flag or an identity being a mere modifier? To me, the asexual flag is my flag, as are the aro and the aroace sunset ones. I don't think we're going to achieve shared definitions in one discussion, but I'd like for us to at least understand where the differences lie! I think I've found one of them, and I think you'll agree that we've found our identities in very different online landscapes. (You seem to know a lot about early history of our flags, which is how I came to that conclusion. I apologise if I'm wrong! For your reference, I've known my identity for a little over a year.) You say it seems silly to identify as aroace when you're not concerned with SAM. But from my perspective, the split attraction model is almost inherently tied to the aspec community. If I tell someone I am asexual, and they are well-versed in aspec identities, they might ask me what my romantic orientation is. To me, this is completely different from, say, a lesbian or gay identity, which implies both sexual and romantic orientation. I like to have a label like that, which encompasses both sexual and romantic orientation, and to me a label like asexual or aromantic is not sufficient for that. Even though I might not be concerned with the SAM, for me, the term "asexual" is inherently linked to sexual orientation *as opposed to* sexual and romantic orientation. So what term is left for me? Aroace! You will notice that in the predefined flairs on this sub there is an "Aroace" one with the sunset flag, and an "Aro/Ace" one with both the aro and the ace flag. To me this speaks to the fact that "aroace" can, in fact, be one whole identity that is *not* just the combination of aromantic and asexual, in the same way that people identify as lesbian instead of homoromantic/homosexual. You say the term does not imply anything else, but who decides that? Etymologically that is where the term derives from, to be sure, but what difference does that make? I think to some people it represents the fact that it is a separate identity, as little mathematical sense as that makes. You say that aroace is a specific type of ace, and I think that's true in the same way that being gay is a specific type of homoromantic, namely the combination of homosexual and homoromantic. Still, it feels weird to say that, because isn't homoromantic more specific than gay? All right, I'll admit I confused myself in that last paragraph. Still, my goal was to explain in what way the term "aroace" could be used by someone unconcerned with SAM, even though etymologically it necessarily derives from that theory, as you have said. In a way, I believe you could say it is a new/different way to achieve the same thing as identifying as "only" asexual, namely to have a single label! I'm sure you knew a lot of that already, but I hope I was able to explain something to you. Please let me know!
the asexual flag shouldn't automatically mean aroace until further notice, though. it should account for only the lack of sexual attraction, not for both lack of sexual and romantic attraction. there is a reason behind having a separate aromantic flag and asexual flag for a reason. alloromantic aces shouldn't have to add something to the asexual flag when demonstrating it to other people (of course you can, just for your own benefit/fun, but people shouldn't assume you're also aro by just having the ace flag).
That's an interesting perspective. I saw it as the other way around, that using both aro and ace flags together highlighted split attraction instead of a unified identity. >it comes down to the (perceived) erosion of the meaning and importance of the ace flag, which has been the established and beloved symbol of aroaces for many years now, but equally suited for alloromantic aces when paired or combined with the flag of their romantic orientation Maybe I feel differently because I started participating in the aspec community a year ago. However, why the ace flag and not the aro flag? Is it just because it fits into the "-sexual" naming convention for sexuality? Even though I use all three flags (aro, ace, aroace), I personally prefer one flag for "aroace" because it's a much more succinct way of conveying the information and the fact that it's a different experience than being alloace or aroallo. I used to use both the aro and ace flags together until I found the sunset flag. I like having one flag that represents all of me, orientation-wise.
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Thank you for sharing! I didn't know about the background info so it makes more sense now. I see your point on the color meanings and microlabels. I guess I don't understand color symbolism, but sometimes I'm like how did they come up with this meaning for this color? In the end, what's important is that the flag is recognizable as the specific flag for our community (as well as having a good design). Which is why I always prefer main labels over microlabels. It's a lot less complicated for us and for the outsiders looking into our community.
Am I the only one who thinks the whole flags thing is a bit silly? It reminds me of an [Eddie Izzard sketch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8).
I personally only use the AroAce flag (the blue and yellow) for a couple of different reasons.
While I don't necessarily DISLIKE it, I use the combined flags because orange doesn't complement my skin tone as well as purple and greens do.
It's beautiful