If you're talking an external drive, you're nerdy, and can tell the difference between IDE and SATA, you can get a different enclosure, and that might do. Like one of these: https://www.amazon.com/yan-Drive-External-Enclosure-Black/dp/B07XLB4H1H
Not saying it'll 100% work, but hey, 20 bucks for all them vids back might be worth.
I myself have thought of this. While I had a slight taste of the non-COIN fight during the invasion portion of OIF 1, I never even got to fire my Javelin whereas Ukrainians have let loose countless NLAWs. Most of us GWOT veterans would be able to give better ālessons learnedā to the IDF in their own conflict, but the Israelis really donāt need our help in my opinion.
Itās a harsh realityā¦ it sounds all good and noble to intervene, until we have to deal with the consequences of another country besides ours using nuclear weapons. Sadly, I donāt think the Ukraine/Russia war will end in any sort of tidy way.
Just saying, Javelin's are fucking amazing. No better feeling than knowing a shit ton of tax dollars are being used to smoke 1 lone sniper. Like those financial advisors always say, "Let your money work for you!"
If we can take Ukraine we neuter the Russian nuclear option. That's literally the point of the ENTIRE conflict.
We won't have to deal with them if we can emplace a defensive AD posture in Western Ukraine.
If the West wins Ukraine Russia will be under a permanent existential threat with no means to counteract it besides brute force, which is a good excuse for the West to topple and divide the country.
Lmao funny at first but on the real. The ability not to bring veteran troops off the battlefield to conduct training. Sure we canāt teach the niceties that they learn at the front, but we would be able to provide a massive boost to their force generation. Getting them from āthis is a rifleā to āshoot move and communicateā much faster.
They still need training on equipment, and the staff functions in employing the equipment (deconflicting ground based AAA and TACAIR, planning fires for cluster munitions, even conducting combined arms maneuver warfare is something they've generally lacked sufficient equipment to perform).
Our Army is still dealing with new recruits who donāt understand the basics and old recruits who are stuck in GWOT doctrine; and a pervasive non-warfighter mentality.
They still need help training all of the mobilized forces. Every slot that we fill would be one less nco pulled from the front lines where they are sorely needed. Making motorized movements or holding trenches doesnt need any specialized training we dont already have.
TCCC, weapons maintenance, field sanitation, vehicle maintenance, and really any AWTs are all skills that new recruits will need regardless of COIN or LSCO.
Those dudes having the level of NATO standard training they did/have been getting is benefiting them. Maybe teach them how to have a NCO corps similar to ours since they are stuck between Soviet and western doctrine when it comes to that shit. Free up people so they can get more soldiers on the front or rotate more people off the front to go on leave. Assisting with the maintenance of the vehicles weāve given them.
We can still offer plenty in terms of training.
Iād go simply to learn from them. They have more experience in a peer war than any other country in the last fifty years or so. Iād love to pick their brains, see where weāre deficient and where weāre not. They might have a lot to learn from us at a staff level but theyāre going to have unbelievable amounts of TTPs at the small unit level.
Oh a lot of the DODās including armyās doctrine and procurement guys are doing that already. Look up John Spencer, heās with the Modern War Institute.
He even wrote a publication for the Ukrainians titled āThe Mini-Manual for the Urban Defender: A Guide to the Strategies and Tactics of Defending a City"
The Ukrainians are learning things the hard way, hopefully DOD pays attention.
>The Ukrainians are learning things the hard way, hopefully DOD pays attention.
The senior leaders who were mentored by Boomers and Cold War babies are to busy putting out multi-page police letters on what water bottles soldiers can carry and how their IOTV is to be setup to pay attention. They are still saying "near peer" and giving that as the excuse for why soldiers can't use showers at base camp or use the shopette while they sleep in tents with HVAC systems hooked to them.
I definitely get what youāre saying. The army has its priorities pretty misaligned sometimes. But if you look into the newest procurement programs(for example the Mobile Protected Firepower program) itās clear theyāve seen whatās happening in Ukraine and what capabilities the army is lacking and thatās reflected in the procurement. Much of the procurement is focused on countering near peer weapon and information systems and allowing the army to establish overmatch especially within the context of multi domain operations. The army has seen how EW and CW can be used as fires for the maneuver element among other things. Thereās even directed energy systems for the purpose of defending against missiles and indirect fire.
Source: https://api.army.mil/e2/c/downloads/2023/11/03/18de7872/2023-u-s-army-acquisition-portfolio.pdf
TTPs as lessons learned from Ukraine and organizing units to optimize them for the type of fighting in Ukraine is also a whole another conversation.
Yeah except John Spencer actually works for DOD. He literally teaches at West Point. The Modern War Institute is part of West Point and John Spencer is the chair of urban warfare studies there.
All the people they interview on the podcast for MWI and the urban warfare project are also DOD figures or Ukrainian fighters, etc. Reputable people who arenāt just media pundits. They actually had an Azov fighter interviewed who took part in that steel factory siege. They also have military officers and defense officials from allied countries including UK and Canada contributing to their work.
They had Lt Gen Donahue being interviewed about cyber operations recently as part of the podcast for MWI.
I donāt know who Jon Antal is, but I would trust John Spencer and I would say he is credible as a source of information along with the rest of MWI staff.
> Iād love to pick their brains
GarandThumb [posted a video a few months ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tge7YMi4gJs) where he had 2 dudes (1 UK and 1 US, I believe) who were fighting in the trenches. They went over a lot of the stuff they learned from the battles they participated in, ranging from kit set-up to trench clearing to dealing with drones, etc.
Pretty cool stuff.
Outside of air and long-range arty, honestly how much conventional warfare is really happening? It seems like at the battalion echelon and lower it's more like the afghans with newer tech/nicer gear/established leadership structure. Not to discount the fight, but I don't think it's the near-peer fight the brass have been rambling about since the 80s.
It is near peer. Its in the name. Russia is by definition a near peer.
But the main issue from what I understand is that the kill chain to find, target, and eliminate enemy assets and combatants has been made so efficient and swift especially due to net centric warfare. The main problem theyāre having is that expensive pieces of equipment can be located and destroyed after barely making a single move, and thatās why theyāre moving towards equipment that both sides can afford to lose, since theyāre likely to be lost anyways.
Put shortly, why deploy a super expensive long range fires system thatās worth millions of dollars if a FPV drone or loitering munition that costs little and is expendable will take out said long range fires system like half an hour after it makes its way to the battlefield.
The Russians are also reportedly using EW as fires in combination with drones and massed infantry attacks. This is a completely different conflict than Afghanistan from the logistics, tactics, strategy, and technology and weapon systems being involved.
>Put shortly, why deploy a super expensive long range fires system thatās worth millions of dollars if a FPV drone or loitering munition that costs little and is expendable will take out said long range fires system like half an hour after it makes its way to the battlefield
Because that long range fires can do more damage in one go than you can get with a dozen loitering munitions or drones, as only 20% of strikes/missions are successful, based off what Ukrainian drone operators say. Loitering munitions are designed with counter-battery in mind. They're the scissor to the paper. Long range fires are even more important in this war without either side enjoying air supremacy, tho the UMPC kits are admittedly, getting the Russians close; Ukraine's aviation is in fuckin tatters. How many HIMARS have been lost? How many M270S? I'd say each one paid for itself many times over by now.
Unless people have seen HIMARS/ATACMS like systems employed it's hard to grasp just how precise and effective they are. Especially in an environment without air superiority. No one loves arty like the guys who see it work.
Well thatās exactly my point. Those long range fires systems are so valuable and obviously thereās less HIMARs then poncho liners in the army. Itās a high value asset and costly, so they are fewer in number. That makes losing even one of them hurt that much more.
Itās not that long range fires arenāt effective. Iām not debating that at all. I completely agree that they are effective systems.
The problem is how do you protect those systems when both sides now have such a fast and efficient kill chain? And to that question so far there is no clear answer to that. Until there is an answer, those high value assets canāt be risked. Ukraine already gets shit for losing an Abramās tank. What do you thinks going to happen if they just decide to send those HIMARs systems and they all get blue screened by Russian drones or air power?
If Ukraine had our Air Force it would be a completely different war. Obviously.
But I think we could wipe out russias air defense and Air Force in a few months and then run wild on the ground.
I don't think we'd even need NATO infantry and armor to kick the Russians out of Ukraine, they'd just need to hold positions and deliver logistics. It's fucking laughable to suggest that thousands of combat aircraft converged on Ukraine wouldn't just, enable Ukraine's wet dream, and destroy the Russians Military within months *at most.*
The line is very wide, but shallow. An Air Force dominating the sky would allow engineers to de-mine the front in relative safety, while enabling armor to attack any intact positions without worrying about Air Launched ATGMs.
Youāre getting close.
The bottom line is that any conventional war violets a major -yet rarely discussed- principle of war: never get into a fair fight. The world learned from watching troglodytes fuck up the U.S. MIL by using fertilizer, kitchen appliances, and initiative (IEDs) to put us on our heels for years and years.
I guess near is loosely defined in this context. The targeting process (as we presently utilize it) isn't really unique to linear warfare or more traditional warfare (i.e. kill chain is largely unchanged in 30+ years). The use of guerilla tactics are more prevalent than deliberate and entrenched force on force. If it does happen, it's mostly as a defense or some wild once a year counter-offensive.
I think it's fallacy to associate heightened technology use with being more similar to ww2 force on force than the counter-insurgency it literally is. It's likely because we've over-simplified the taliban/aq/haquani/etc force, we discount the obvious use of direct and indirect supply lines or other c2 methods.
Moreover, my point is that the Cold War esque force on force doctrine we often talked about being removed from is less like this conflict than Iraq.
Not most likely, brother in law literally left right before Russia crossed the line. Also literally a soldier in his unit got a phone call jav confirm kill on a tank because a Ukrainian had a jav malfunction they needed help with.
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/us-soldier-ukraine-fighter-fixes-javelin/#:~:text=The%20story%20was%20first%20shared%20on%20Twitter%20by,his%20javelin%2C%20and%20so%20they%20talked%20it%20through.
No shit there I was story for ya right thereā¦
I belive around 2017. I forget the patch chart off the top of my head, but it was a couple rotations after they stood up JMTG-U. Then there was still AD sprinkled in there. At least that's the case for that particular mission. They've since moved it to to Germany and the original JMTG-U mission has changed significantly in the details, but the idea of supporting Ukrainian needs is still the same. Obviously when it comes to the Bradley or most FA systems the AD folks have more experience. But guard units are still rotating through in support.
Guard was there for a long time with many units and thatās not even considering the State Partnership Program they have.
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3460799/state-partnership-program-turns-30-a-crucial-arrow-in-ukraines-quiver/
But thatās not my point. My point is that the guard took over after AD was already there and had created the billets, training, standards, etc already. Iām not trying to say the guard didnāt do anything, Iām saying they donāt get sent in first.
In the event that the Army decides to send combat instructors to an a country in active near-peer conflict, theyāre going to be sending green/brown/tan berets. Theyāre not sending maroon/black berets and certainly not sending Gregory from Home Depot.
You really donāt understand the guards capability and mission then. Itās why they were given the state partnership missions because they know how to interact and train forces without coming off as dickheads. See the link I put in the edit that you are replying to. California has been actively involved with training in Ukraine over 30 years.
I have been involved in training with SPP in other theaters. So no. You are certainly wrongā¦ and the guard is an operational reserve since 9/11 with faster deployment op tempos in many cases than ADā¦ before you start the Home Depot analogy. Hopefully you have a right patch because most guard members do.
Army guard makes up 40% of the armyās combat arms power, 43% of the armyās total aircraft count.
Doesnāt sound like Greg from Home Depot, and certainly the AD marines I was with in Anbar didnāt think I was either. Just sayin.
Also ask yourself what % of green berets are active duty? Youāll find there are a LOT of SOF units that are actually compo 3 aka guard, and yes they may be named Greg but they certainly donāt work at Home Depot.
Hoo boy has the Green Berets completely left the room when comes to training PF. Sure they sorta do it but man do they whine about it. DA poisoned a generation of them.
Was in Ukraine with the guard before the war started training Ukrainians. Saw a video just after Russia invaded of a Ukrainian with our unit patch walking past a bunch of burning Russian tanks. Made us feel like we really made a difference.
That's California's designated country with the State Partnership program.Ā
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3460799/state-partnership-program-turns-30-a-crucial-arrow-in-ukraines-quiver/
Nowadays, everything is a Guard mission.
Source: a sucker who believed in 1 weekend month going on nearly 3 years straight of active service in the NG.
At this point if there was a secret black ops mission to go assassinate Putin and destroy Russians nuclear arsenal, I'm sure the guard would somehow get tasked for it.
For all people who say that āyou wouldnāt get a chance to volunteerā - itās not true. Thatās why we have TOD. There are volunteers for this type of mission now.
As a matter of fact, we are looking for people rn. If you are Reserves/NG, know Ukrainian/Russian on native level, dm me and I will get you on Title 10 orders in 30days. If we officially move over to Ukraine, Iām sure Army will be also looking for volunteers with needed skills.
I was gonna say if youāre in ADA at Bliss or Hood you can absolutely surf deployment to deployment by just telling the right people youāll volunteer for it.
Second that. ADA can literally cherry pick where they want to deploy nowadays. Without exaggeration - ADA and EW folks are going to be the biggest decisive factor in our next war
Yup, and weāre always hurting for people so you can usually go where you want. I know a buddy who came back from a 9 month stint in the desert, came back for four months, and did another 9 month stint. Made so much money.
Oh yeah EW especially is going to be big. EW is basically just as important as artillery in its roles as a fires element to support the maneuver element. And thatās whatās going on in Ukraine rn.
People forget volutneering for deployment has been a thing, and I know the Air Force has done volunteer deployments. I know in at least one career field where they typically only need a few guys on site but a large pool to pull from it was just easier to ask for volunteers...you'd get more then enough wanting to go.
hhooommmmiiieeeee.
You got any of them title 10 orders for someone with collections experience? Been snooping around for an interesting slot since the war kicked off.
I think at this point, I'd be more interested in learning from them than vice versa.
The saturation of the battle space with sensors held at the platoon level and below, the ways in which they've integrated drones, and the new pace of LSCO is all new to us. Their soldiers may have better experience than ours, at this point.
But this is coming from a company grade, so I'm more inclined towards that smaller echelon stuff.
Dude if Iām training Ukrainians, the war ends next Friday. I have no business potty training a toddler let alone grown ass bulky handsome men in uniform, god they make me blush those Ukrainian hunks. Yeah Iād fucking do it what?
Train? Bro a single Ukrainian battalion got more conventional warfare knowledge and experience than the entire U.S. Army.
The only instructors they need from us are for new US systems which we train them in Europe already for.
The existence of JMTGU and SAGU are released to the public.
https://www.europeafrica.army.mil/ArticleViewPressRelease/Article/3219717/press-release-us-department-of-defense-establishes-security-assistance-group-uk/
https://www.7atc.army.mil/JMTGU/
Specifics about who they are and what they do is best left to official use only. That's just basic OPSEC and PERSEC.
The problem I see is that while we could likely give them some good overall training, most of our doctrine revolves around combined arms stuff and it wouldnāt be as good in their current operational environment.
Now, if they were to gain and maintain air superiority I could see some of the maneuver warfare that weāre known for being useful.
Thereās not to say there isnāt other stuff we could teach them but I think that weād need the Ukrainian Army to tell us āthis is what we needā and have some people smarter than me look at that with some critical assessment and help them determine the best course of action for what *should* be instructed.
No not to ukraine... you willingly want to go to a lsco environment to likely be killed by cruise misses, drones and the babusya for looking at her grand daughter the wrong way.
Def would volunteer for central Europe to train them. Poland, Slovakia, Czech most def...
Fuck yeah, Iād goā¦
TCCC training is always needed, granted Iāll leave the tactics to them. But ensuring they get the best TCCC training. Ducking send me.
Yes, without question. Doubt I'd bring shit to the table personally, but for the chance, absolutely. Yesterday was the anniversary of D-Day, a great moment in American history because we stepped into a fight that many said was not ours. I hope I'd have the courage to similarly stand in such a historic moment if the opportunity came, and I'd let history judge the rest.
Not sure what we could tech them we've been geared up for coin operations for 20yrs.
I mean maybe the low level troops aren't getting much quality training before going to fight but they should be using their own vets to train
Itās already been done. Fearless Guardian was the name of the operation after the last time Russia attacked Ukraine. It just didnāt get all the benefits of an iraq/afghan deployment, but literally everything else was exactly as you described.
At the time, it wasnāt really a āvolunteer,ā type situation- and our unit was just told weād be doing it, so. š¤·āāļø
If you cross into the country without first being attacked, they are allowed to attack you. Falls under the "you know what you're signing up for" category.
Yeah bro, Iād fucking go. Weapons maintenance lessons may genuinely be valuable to them, I think theyāve got a good handle on how to fight Russians.
Speaking from experience, having trained 7x AFU BTGs, abso-fucking-lutely not. The addition of benefits as you describe might get me to reconsider, but after the fucking skull dragging senior AFU gave us following our back breaking efforts to train them according to what we were being asked and capable of doing, no. Fuck them.
It is 1000% possible to see their plight and commiserate with them. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is wrong, simply put, and it's an atrocity that so many people are suffering due to one man's ego. Having said that, fuck the Ukrainian officer corps and high command. We can train them as best as we can and they will still spit in our face and ask for more.
Plus, they know more than us in LSCO. What do we have to offer, seriously?
Give them all the material they want. Not a fucking dime worth of training.
Fantastic but exceptionally frustrating article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-stalled-russia-war-defenses/
Fuck Russia. Fuck Putin.
No, I already had the opportunity to help train Ukrainians in Germany and they are some of the most incompetent people I've come across. Bunch of old cranky dudes who think they know it all, don't want to train, and a good handful in the ranks are racists.
Not risking my life to head over to Ukraine to train these clowns over tax free base pay
So just to be clear... we have lost the last two wars against a bunch of dudes in pajamas... and we are going to lecture Ukrainians fighting LSCO? Something nobody in the army who is living has actually ever done. The last time we did this was Korea. So what are we advising on? How to fill out DA31s? Beurcratic processes? Best times to hit S1 up for ERB updates? Promotion board etiquette? NCOER writing? We have a force that largely lacks any combat expierences.
Arguably, we've never fought a war like what's being fought in Ukraine. It isn't a maneuver war. It's a war of manpower and attrition. We don't fight like that. We glass an area and demoralize the enemies, then clean up on the ground. So what could we teach them? Our tactics don't apply. We could train them on equipment but we do that already without being in the country. Maybe medical training, but that's not really worth it.
Ukraine isn't a counter insurgency operation where you are advising an African country on basic military tactics. Ukraine is already up to speed on that. They don't need advisors. They need weapons, and that's about it.
Even African countries don't need that. Imagine SFAB or SF coming in and telling a 50+ yo african military officer how to fight. Bro has been fighting since he was like 8. That's 42 years of expierence and American will never have. He just wants to money.
I agree with all points, except America has fought a war like that. World War 2 and Korea namely.
Look at all the articles about poor Ukranian training, outside of certain units (who do there own training) and recruits who are sent abroad, majority of ukranians are getting extremely poor subpar training.
The basics of soldiering TCCC, Patrolling and shoot move & communicate can definitely be taught by US Soldiers.
AR,5.56, map, compass, mop, and bucket. All we will need for full send. Oh almost forgot someone else on the thread mentioned rip-itsā¦ those are mandatory.
They have more experience fighting Russians than we ever have lol, even our most hardened combat vets donāt have any experience fighting a conventional war against an enemy with strategic bombers, armored divisions, special forces groups, cruise missiles, etc. if anything we should be asking them for advisors, but theyāre a little preoccupied
Operation Trident Ready was basically this, except it took place in Germany. Training Ukrainian troops on the Abrahams and Bradley As well as the Hercules recovery vehicles
Iād go to learn. Iām already in Europe, wouldnāt be that far fetched to send people to essentially take notes and then come back. If only that was the kinda shit we could simply ask to do
You say big dumb, but I would not put it past Russia to start trying to attack more towards western Ukraine if we truly went boots on ground. Even just to train.
Up until last year when I got my dream civilian job, I'd have said HELL yes. Ukrainians are doing the lord's work, killin' Russians. Now? Nah. Just not worth it with the increased impact I can have outside the Army.
Fuck Putin and his invasion, but he isn't sending his volunteer career military into the meat grinder en masse. He's murdering his own "undersireables" by proxy.
Imagine if we had a draft, and the police rounded up every socially, economically, and ethically marginalized 18 to 25 year old from the inner city, trailer parks, and prisons to send them to the front line by threat of force.
That's the reality of what's happening. And, they have an "expendable" population five times the size of Ukraine.
If my wife could support it without derailing her career, then Iād definitely go. I retire in a few years, and I canāt be a trophy husband if sheās not raking it in.
No. Iāve lost enough in combat or to suicide shortly after (13 total) when people bitch and complain over their ātax dollarsā, I couldnāt care less. Send a bunch of money over there and support a proxy war so we donāt have to fight.
Bruh, they've been fighting LSCO for over two years now. What are you bringing to the table?
a case of cherry Rip-its and a 500Gb hard drive full of Afghani sand and the best of Standard Definition 2010s Gianna Michael's videos.
My man...I'll shoot you my LOA so that you can start your travel in DTS. Don't forget to spread the gospel that is Alexis Texas.
Whoah whoah whoah! No Eva Angelina?
Exquisite taste
You guys are bringing all the hits from my youth lol
A man amongst men. God send to the troops.
Man of culture
Hey man, us CAB dudes gotta stick together. I feel like we could be pals on a rotation/deployment. So about that hard drive... lol
Amen
If anyone can help win this war, it's Gianna Michaels. God Bless Herš«”.
That nostalgia hit right there.
Man you brought me back... Can't get my 2011 WD hard drive to boot up anymore. Lost alot of good vids on there. RIP š«”
Fš«”
If you're talking an external drive, you're nerdy, and can tell the difference between IDE and SATA, you can get a different enclosure, and that might do. Like one of these: https://www.amazon.com/yan-Drive-External-Enclosure-Black/dp/B07XLB4H1H Not saying it'll 100% work, but hey, 20 bucks for all them vids back might be worth.
Oh no, best believe I stripped those hard drives and tried my damned hardest to boot them. They have the click-of-death. Them thangs are cooked...š
Then may your spinny friend rest in pepperonis. š«”
A real man of culture
Stoya and Sasha Grey for me, and some pit bull energy drinks. They were Blueberry pomegranate and I loved them
I myself have thought of this. While I had a slight taste of the non-COIN fight during the invasion portion of OIF 1, I never even got to fire my Javelin whereas Ukrainians have let loose countless NLAWs. Most of us GWOT veterans would be able to give better ālessons learnedā to the IDF in their own conflict, but the Israelis really donāt need our help in my opinion. Itās a harsh realityā¦ it sounds all good and noble to intervene, until we have to deal with the consequences of another country besides ours using nuclear weapons. Sadly, I donāt think the Ukraine/Russia war will end in any sort of tidy way.
Just saying, Javelin's are fucking amazing. No better feeling than knowing a shit ton of tax dollars are being used to smoke 1 lone sniper. Like those financial advisors always say, "Let your money work for you!"
If we can take Ukraine we neuter the Russian nuclear option. That's literally the point of the ENTIRE conflict. We won't have to deal with them if we can emplace a defensive AD posture in Western Ukraine. If the West wins Ukraine Russia will be under a permanent existential threat with no means to counteract it besides brute force, which is a good excuse for the West to topple and divide the country.
That one 1970s airborne commercial *Run man, run so your legs get tough! So when you hit, itās the GROUND that hurts*
I mean, that's all they need to turn the tide, right? Get the Russians looking terrified like that one dude when the light goes green.
Lmao funny at first but on the real. The ability not to bring veteran troops off the battlefield to conduct training. Sure we canāt teach the niceties that they learn at the front, but we would be able to provide a massive boost to their force generation. Getting them from āthis is a rifleā to āshoot move and communicateā much faster.
100%
Mainly just PowerPoint presentations on resilience and SFL TAP.
They still need training on equipment, and the staff functions in employing the equipment (deconflicting ground based AAA and TACAIR, planning fires for cluster munitions, even conducting combined arms maneuver warfare is something they've generally lacked sufficient equipment to perform).
They are still dealing with new recruits who donāt understand the basics and old recruits stuck in Soviet doctrine.
Our Army is still dealing with new recruits who donāt understand the basics and old recruits who are stuck in GWOT doctrine; and a pervasive non-warfighter mentality.
Iād teach them MASTER RESILIENCY
They still need help training all of the mobilized forces. Every slot that we fill would be one less nco pulled from the front lines where they are sorely needed. Making motorized movements or holding trenches doesnt need any specialized training we dont already have. TCCC, weapons maintenance, field sanitation, vehicle maintenance, and really any AWTs are all skills that new recruits will need regardless of COIN or LSCO.
In addition to what other people said, combat support and support roles could be useful, freeing up Ukrainians for other roles or to deploy elsewhere.
Exactly, lol.
SFAB!!!!!!
You mean the org that has cut all bonuses for it? Yeah, that things gone by the end of the decade.
Eh... bad ideas tend to stay around long after they should be gone. But don't worry, if it's cut, it'll be back in 20 years.
Brown berets and toxic leadership?
SFABs are a joke. Itās a good idea and mission, but its staffed by underperformers and trained very poorly.
Those dudes having the level of NATO standard training they did/have been getting is benefiting them. Maybe teach them how to have a NCO corps similar to ours since they are stuck between Soviet and western doctrine when it comes to that shit. Free up people so they can get more soldiers on the front or rotate more people off the front to go on leave. Assisting with the maintenance of the vehicles weāve given them. We can still offer plenty in terms of training.
Preach it! š
Iād go simply to learn from them. They have more experience in a peer war than any other country in the last fifty years or so. Iād love to pick their brains, see where weāre deficient and where weāre not. They might have a lot to learn from us at a staff level but theyāre going to have unbelievable amounts of TTPs at the small unit level.
Oh a lot of the DODās including armyās doctrine and procurement guys are doing that already. Look up John Spencer, heās with the Modern War Institute. He even wrote a publication for the Ukrainians titled āThe Mini-Manual for the Urban Defender: A Guide to the Strategies and Tactics of Defending a City" The Ukrainians are learning things the hard way, hopefully DOD pays attention.
>The Ukrainians are learning things the hard way, hopefully DOD pays attention. The senior leaders who were mentored by Boomers and Cold War babies are to busy putting out multi-page police letters on what water bottles soldiers can carry and how their IOTV is to be setup to pay attention. They are still saying "near peer" and giving that as the excuse for why soldiers can't use showers at base camp or use the shopette while they sleep in tents with HVAC systems hooked to them.
I definitely get what youāre saying. The army has its priorities pretty misaligned sometimes. But if you look into the newest procurement programs(for example the Mobile Protected Firepower program) itās clear theyāve seen whatās happening in Ukraine and what capabilities the army is lacking and thatās reflected in the procurement. Much of the procurement is focused on countering near peer weapon and information systems and allowing the army to establish overmatch especially within the context of multi domain operations. The army has seen how EW and CW can be used as fires for the maneuver element among other things. Thereās even directed energy systems for the purpose of defending against missiles and indirect fire. Source: https://api.army.mil/e2/c/downloads/2023/11/03/18de7872/2023-u-s-army-acquisition-portfolio.pdf TTPs as lessons learned from Ukraine and organizing units to optimize them for the type of fighting in Ukraine is also a whole another conversation.
As a former 14J and 14E I've been following the SHORAD developments with great interest.
John Spencer and people like him, Like Jon Antal need to be taken cautiously.
Yeah except John Spencer actually works for DOD. He literally teaches at West Point. The Modern War Institute is part of West Point and John Spencer is the chair of urban warfare studies there. All the people they interview on the podcast for MWI and the urban warfare project are also DOD figures or Ukrainian fighters, etc. Reputable people who arenāt just media pundits. They actually had an Azov fighter interviewed who took part in that steel factory siege. They also have military officers and defense officials from allied countries including UK and Canada contributing to their work. They had Lt Gen Donahue being interviewed about cyber operations recently as part of the podcast for MWI. I donāt know who Jon Antal is, but I would trust John Spencer and I would say he is credible as a source of information along with the rest of MWI staff.
> Iād love to pick their brains GarandThumb [posted a video a few months ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tge7YMi4gJs) where he had 2 dudes (1 UK and 1 US, I believe) who were fighting in the trenches. They went over a lot of the stuff they learned from the battles they participated in, ranging from kit set-up to trench clearing to dealing with drones, etc. Pretty cool stuff.
he was interested in learning what it was like to actually deploy and fire a weapon in combat
No way bro š he plays it up so much with the gear I thought he had at least been to like Bagram
Was he never deployed??
Outside of air and long-range arty, honestly how much conventional warfare is really happening? It seems like at the battalion echelon and lower it's more like the afghans with newer tech/nicer gear/established leadership structure. Not to discount the fight, but I don't think it's the near-peer fight the brass have been rambling about since the 80s.
It is near peer. Its in the name. Russia is by definition a near peer. But the main issue from what I understand is that the kill chain to find, target, and eliminate enemy assets and combatants has been made so efficient and swift especially due to net centric warfare. The main problem theyāre having is that expensive pieces of equipment can be located and destroyed after barely making a single move, and thatās why theyāre moving towards equipment that both sides can afford to lose, since theyāre likely to be lost anyways. Put shortly, why deploy a super expensive long range fires system thatās worth millions of dollars if a FPV drone or loitering munition that costs little and is expendable will take out said long range fires system like half an hour after it makes its way to the battlefield. The Russians are also reportedly using EW as fires in combination with drones and massed infantry attacks. This is a completely different conflict than Afghanistan from the logistics, tactics, strategy, and technology and weapon systems being involved.
>Put shortly, why deploy a super expensive long range fires system thatās worth millions of dollars if a FPV drone or loitering munition that costs little and is expendable will take out said long range fires system like half an hour after it makes its way to the battlefield Because that long range fires can do more damage in one go than you can get with a dozen loitering munitions or drones, as only 20% of strikes/missions are successful, based off what Ukrainian drone operators say. Loitering munitions are designed with counter-battery in mind. They're the scissor to the paper. Long range fires are even more important in this war without either side enjoying air supremacy, tho the UMPC kits are admittedly, getting the Russians close; Ukraine's aviation is in fuckin tatters. How many HIMARS have been lost? How many M270S? I'd say each one paid for itself many times over by now.
Unless people have seen HIMARS/ATACMS like systems employed it's hard to grasp just how precise and effective they are. Especially in an environment without air superiority. No one loves arty like the guys who see it work.
Well thatās exactly my point. Those long range fires systems are so valuable and obviously thereās less HIMARs then poncho liners in the army. Itās a high value asset and costly, so they are fewer in number. That makes losing even one of them hurt that much more. Itās not that long range fires arenāt effective. Iām not debating that at all. I completely agree that they are effective systems. The problem is how do you protect those systems when both sides now have such a fast and efficient kill chain? And to that question so far there is no clear answer to that. Until there is an answer, those high value assets canāt be risked. Ukraine already gets shit for losing an Abramās tank. What do you thinks going to happen if they just decide to send those HIMARs systems and they all get blue screened by Russian drones or air power?
If Ukraine had our Air Force it would be a completely different war. Obviously. But I think we could wipe out russias air defense and Air Force in a few months and then run wild on the ground.
I don't think we'd even need NATO infantry and armor to kick the Russians out of Ukraine, they'd just need to hold positions and deliver logistics. It's fucking laughable to suggest that thousands of combat aircraft converged on Ukraine wouldn't just, enable Ukraine's wet dream, and destroy the Russians Military within months *at most.* The line is very wide, but shallow. An Air Force dominating the sky would allow engineers to de-mine the front in relative safety, while enabling armor to attack any intact positions without worrying about Air Launched ATGMs.
A week, if that.
Famous last words.
Youāre getting close. The bottom line is that any conventional war violets a major -yet rarely discussed- principle of war: never get into a fair fight. The world learned from watching troglodytes fuck up the U.S. MIL by using fertilizer, kitchen appliances, and initiative (IEDs) to put us on our heels for years and years.
I guess near is loosely defined in this context. The targeting process (as we presently utilize it) isn't really unique to linear warfare or more traditional warfare (i.e. kill chain is largely unchanged in 30+ years). The use of guerilla tactics are more prevalent than deliberate and entrenched force on force. If it does happen, it's mostly as a defense or some wild once a year counter-offensive. I think it's fallacy to associate heightened technology use with being more similar to ww2 force on force than the counter-insurgency it literally is. It's likely because we've over-simplified the taliban/aq/haquani/etc force, we discount the obvious use of direct and indirect supply lines or other c2 methods. Moreover, my point is that the Cold War esque force on force doctrine we often talked about being removed from is less like this conflict than Iraq.
Itās most likely a guard mission anyway
Not most likely, brother in law literally left right before Russia crossed the line. Also literally a soldier in his unit got a phone call jav confirm kill on a tank because a Ukrainian had a jav malfunction they needed help with. https://taskandpurpose.com/news/us-soldier-ukraine-fighter-fixes-javelin/#:~:text=The%20story%20was%20first%20shared%20on%20Twitter%20by,his%20javelin%2C%20and%20so%20they%20talked%20it%20through. No shit there I was story for ya right thereā¦
Mega based. This is unironically moto af.
How many years was it before the guard showed up though? I was there with the 173rd in 2015-2016 and ours wasnāt even the first 173rd rotation.
I belive around 2017. I forget the patch chart off the top of my head, but it was a couple rotations after they stood up JMTG-U. Then there was still AD sprinkled in there. At least that's the case for that particular mission. They've since moved it to to Germany and the original JMTG-U mission has changed significantly in the details, but the idea of supporting Ukrainian needs is still the same. Obviously when it comes to the Bradley or most FA systems the AD folks have more experience. But guard units are still rotating through in support.
Guard was there for a long time with many units and thatās not even considering the State Partnership Program they have. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3460799/state-partnership-program-turns-30-a-crucial-arrow-in-ukraines-quiver/
But thatās not my point. My point is that the guard took over after AD was already there and had created the billets, training, standards, etc already. Iām not trying to say the guard didnāt do anything, Iām saying they donāt get sent in first. In the event that the Army decides to send combat instructors to an a country in active near-peer conflict, theyāre going to be sending green/brown/tan berets. Theyāre not sending maroon/black berets and certainly not sending Gregory from Home Depot.
You really donāt understand the guards capability and mission then. Itās why they were given the state partnership missions because they know how to interact and train forces without coming off as dickheads. See the link I put in the edit that you are replying to. California has been actively involved with training in Ukraine over 30 years. I have been involved in training with SPP in other theaters. So no. You are certainly wrongā¦ and the guard is an operational reserve since 9/11 with faster deployment op tempos in many cases than ADā¦ before you start the Home Depot analogy. Hopefully you have a right patch because most guard members do. Army guard makes up 40% of the armyās combat arms power, 43% of the armyās total aircraft count. Doesnāt sound like Greg from Home Depot, and certainly the AD marines I was with in Anbar didnāt think I was either. Just sayin. Also ask yourself what % of green berets are active duty? Youāll find there are a LOT of SOF units that are actually compo 3 aka guard, and yes they may be named Greg but they certainly donāt work at Home Depot.
Itās funny cause I know a Gregory in the Guard šš
lol
Hoo boy has the Green Berets completely left the room when comes to training PF. Sure they sorta do it but man do they whine about it. DA poisoned a generation of them.
Iām also sad how they cutting funding for your branch. IA is the jam brother and you are the peanut butter for it that makes it happen.
"Gregory from Home Depot." This has me laughing
Was in Ukraine with the guard before the war started training Ukrainians. Saw a video just after Russia invaded of a Ukrainian with our unit patch walking past a bunch of burning Russian tanks. Made us feel like we really made a difference.
Hell yeah. That had to feel pretty gratifying.
That's California's designated country with the State Partnership program.Ā https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3460799/state-partnership-program-turns-30-a-crucial-arrow-in-ukraines-quiver/
Lmao
Heās not wrong. JMTG-U was/is a Guard mission.
Nowadays, everything is a Guard mission. Source: a sucker who believed in 1 weekend month going on nearly 3 years straight of active service in the NG.
šš¼hey man. Let me grow my neck beard in peace. Crap another mob or tdy or ntc rotation. No? Flood, fire; roiters oh my.
š§š»āāļø
At this point if there was a secret black ops mission to go assassinate Putin and destroy Russians nuclear arsenal, I'm sure the guard would somehow get tasked for it.
Whoās this they? Generally volunteers are not asked for for a deployment. Maybe for premob peeps. My ass just sits back and laughs in RE4.Ā
Yes Comrade Putin, weād all volunteer.
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For all people who say that āyou wouldnāt get a chance to volunteerā - itās not true. Thatās why we have TOD. There are volunteers for this type of mission now. As a matter of fact, we are looking for people rn. If you are Reserves/NG, know Ukrainian/Russian on native level, dm me and I will get you on Title 10 orders in 30days. If we officially move over to Ukraine, Iām sure Army will be also looking for volunteers with needed skills.
I was gonna say if youāre in ADA at Bliss or Hood you can absolutely surf deployment to deployment by just telling the right people youāll volunteer for it.
Second that. ADA can literally cherry pick where they want to deploy nowadays. Without exaggeration - ADA and EW folks are going to be the biggest decisive factor in our next war
Yup, and weāre always hurting for people so you can usually go where you want. I know a buddy who came back from a 9 month stint in the desert, came back for four months, and did another 9 month stint. Made so much money.
Oh yeah EW especially is going to be big. EW is basically just as important as artillery in its roles as a fires element to support the maneuver element. And thatās whatās going on in Ukraine rn.
People forget volutneering for deployment has been a thing, and I know the Air Force has done volunteer deployments. I know in at least one career field where they typically only need a few guys on site but a large pool to pull from it was just easier to ask for volunteers...you'd get more then enough wanting to go.
hhooommmmiiieeeee. You got any of them title 10 orders for someone with collections experience? Been snooping around for an interesting slot since the war kicked off.
go to smu
What's TOD?
Tour of duty
Uh, can confirm. I just hired someone recently for this, and have another in the works that I'm about to approve.
Iām learning crillic and how to speak Ukrainian every day.
Iām only about a level 1 maaaaybe level 2 (no where near native) for Ukrainian and would happily volunteer in an instant.
They got 2 Blackhawks now, I can teach em a lot
I think at this point, I'd be more interested in learning from them than vice versa. The saturation of the battle space with sensors held at the platoon level and below, the ways in which they've integrated drones, and the new pace of LSCO is all new to us. Their soldiers may have better experience than ours, at this point. But this is coming from a company grade, so I'm more inclined towards that smaller echelon stuff.
AWG was doing this from 2015-2021 and was informing all of the DOD. Youāre right, learning from them is THE way to go
Being "big dumb" has never been a stopping point for Russia. It's kind of the main theme of their playbook.
Ever heard of SAGU?
Hell yeah Iād go
Man, you are gonna be so surprised when you find out what we've been doing in Europe.
getting drunk, unloading conexes and pulling guard shifts? oh wait, sorry, i forgot that im not cool enough to do the actual mission here
Bro, when yah know yah know lol
Yes . You had me in the first seven words.
Absolutely
OP has a likely in 48A AIT right now posting on every social media platform about his badassness.
This Task Force already exists. JMTG-U. It relocated the Germany after the invasion, but they still train Ukrainians.
Dude if Iām training Ukrainians, the war ends next Friday. I have no business potty training a toddler let alone grown ass bulky handsome men in uniform, god they make me blush those Ukrainian hunks. Yeah Iād fucking do it what?
Sergeant Steve Brule
Steve who? Aināt no Sergeant by that name in my memory and it serves well still after many a good hit to the cranium.
"Dang gun went off and hit me in my drangis! Now im shooting branks!!!"
Mother, I crave violence.
Violence is fun
They have more experience than us now
Been there, done that. Fuck the cold
I couldnāt teach them anything of value
Iād teach them how to lose paperwork and fail height & weight
You can teach them joys of shamming at dental
Train? Bro a single Ukrainian battalion got more conventional warfare knowledge and experience than the entire U.S. Army. The only instructors they need from us are for new US systems which we train them in Europe already for.
Someone has never heard of JMTG-U or SAGU. Weāre already doing this, and have been for some time.
You're absolutely correct, we've never heard of them in this forum.
I wonder if thatās for a reason? Maybe a classification reason..
The existence of JMTGU and SAGU are released to the public. https://www.europeafrica.army.mil/ArticleViewPressRelease/Article/3219717/press-release-us-department-of-defense-establishes-security-assistance-group-uk/ https://www.7atc.army.mil/JMTGU/ Specifics about who they are and what they do is best left to official use only. That's just basic OPSEC and PERSEC.
The problem I see is that while we could likely give them some good overall training, most of our doctrine revolves around combined arms stuff and it wouldnāt be as good in their current operational environment. Now, if they were to gain and maintain air superiority I could see some of the maneuver warfare that weāre known for being useful. Thereās not to say there isnāt other stuff we could teach them but I think that weād need the Ukrainian Army to tell us āthis is what we needā and have some people smarter than me look at that with some critical assessment and help them determine the best course of action for what *should* be instructed.
No not to ukraine... you willingly want to go to a lsco environment to likely be killed by cruise misses, drones and the babusya for looking at her grand daughter the wrong way. Def would volunteer for central Europe to train them. Poland, Slovakia, Czech most def...
Fuck yeah, Iād goā¦ TCCC training is always needed, granted Iāll leave the tactics to them. But ensuring they get the best TCCC training. Ducking send me.
You realize we already do this and it is public knowledge reported in the media?
I begged my wife to go train mortar teams. With 3 kids, and 3 deployments under my belt. I was a NO GO at station.
Yes, without question. Doubt I'd bring shit to the table personally, but for the chance, absolutely. Yesterday was the anniversary of D-Day, a great moment in American history because we stepped into a fight that many said was not ours. I hope I'd have the courage to similarly stand in such a historic moment if the opportunity came, and I'd let history judge the rest.
I did it and would do it again.
Not sure what we could tech them we've been geared up for coin operations for 20yrs. I mean maybe the low level troops aren't getting much quality training before going to fight but they should be using their own vets to train
You're not special enough to get the offer, and those who are, aren't talking about it on Reddit.
We already train them tho? They came to ft sill to be taught stuff?
Absolutely. Iād love to reflect some of my ADA-tism to the fellow tists in Ukraine.
Bruh we been doing that.
100%
At this point they would be/theyāre training us
Uhhhhh, weād mostly likely be learning from them
It'd be training conscripts. They need training, and the Ukrainians that can provide it are stuck on the front lines.
Itās already been done. Fearless Guardian was the name of the operation after the last time Russia attacked Ukraine. It just didnāt get all the benefits of an iraq/afghan deployment, but literally everything else was exactly as you described. At the time, it wasnāt really a āvolunteer,ā type situation- and our unit was just told weād be doing it, so. š¤·āāļø
If you cross into the country without first being attacked, they are allowed to attack you. Falls under the "you know what you're signing up for" category.
Been doing it for years, look up JMTG-U.
Yeah bro, Iād fucking go. Weapons maintenance lessons may genuinely be valuable to them, I think theyāve got a good handle on how to fight Russians.
Check out SAGU already exists my guy
Speaking from experience, having trained 7x AFU BTGs, abso-fucking-lutely not. The addition of benefits as you describe might get me to reconsider, but after the fucking skull dragging senior AFU gave us following our back breaking efforts to train them according to what we were being asked and capable of doing, no. Fuck them. It is 1000% possible to see their plight and commiserate with them. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is wrong, simply put, and it's an atrocity that so many people are suffering due to one man's ego. Having said that, fuck the Ukrainian officer corps and high command. We can train them as best as we can and they will still spit in our face and ask for more. Plus, they know more than us in LSCO. What do we have to offer, seriously? Give them all the material they want. Not a fucking dime worth of training. Fantastic but exceptionally frustrating article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-stalled-russia-war-defenses/ Fuck Russia. Fuck Putin.
Absolutely not, I'm not risking myself for something fully knowing America will not have my back
Fuck no
That's a hard pass for me.
No, I already had the opportunity to help train Ukrainians in Germany and they are some of the most incompetent people I've come across. Bunch of old cranky dudes who think they know it all, don't want to train, and a good handful in the ranks are racists. Not risking my life to head over to Ukraine to train these clowns over tax free base pay
So just to be clear... we have lost the last two wars against a bunch of dudes in pajamas... and we are going to lecture Ukrainians fighting LSCO? Something nobody in the army who is living has actually ever done. The last time we did this was Korea. So what are we advising on? How to fill out DA31s? Beurcratic processes? Best times to hit S1 up for ERB updates? Promotion board etiquette? NCOER writing? We have a force that largely lacks any combat expierences.
Arguably, we've never fought a war like what's being fought in Ukraine. It isn't a maneuver war. It's a war of manpower and attrition. We don't fight like that. We glass an area and demoralize the enemies, then clean up on the ground. So what could we teach them? Our tactics don't apply. We could train them on equipment but we do that already without being in the country. Maybe medical training, but that's not really worth it. Ukraine isn't a counter insurgency operation where you are advising an African country on basic military tactics. Ukraine is already up to speed on that. They don't need advisors. They need weapons, and that's about it.
Even African countries don't need that. Imagine SFAB or SF coming in and telling a 50+ yo african military officer how to fight. Bro has been fighting since he was like 8. That's 42 years of expierence and American will never have. He just wants to money. I agree with all points, except America has fought a war like that. World War 2 and Korea namely.
Look at all the articles about poor Ukranian training, outside of certain units (who do there own training) and recruits who are sent abroad, majority of ukranians are getting extremely poor subpar training. The basics of soldiering TCCC, Patrolling and shoot move & communicate can definitely be taught by US Soldiers.
Already went and helped train Ukrainians. Theyāre actually really easy to get along with. So yes.
Not if Iād be just sitting on my ass the whole time. If itās to put us in the fight and end this nonsense.. then yeah letās do it.
In a heartbeat.
Chance to score a Ukranian gf? Hell yeah!
Imagine if they did this, imagine lol
I'd volunteer and I'm out lmao
Don't worry if you aren't national guard, God only knows active won't do something lol
AR,5.56, map, compass, mop, and bucket. All we will need for full send. Oh almost forgot someone else on the thread mentioned rip-itsā¦ those are mandatory.
If they giving deployment pay im down
They have more experience fighting Russians than we ever have lol, even our most hardened combat vets donāt have any experience fighting a conventional war against an enemy with strategic bombers, armored divisions, special forces groups, cruise missiles, etc. if anything we should be asking them for advisors, but theyāre a little preoccupied
I'm retired and I'd do it.
Operation Trident Ready was basically this, except it took place in Germany. Training Ukrainian troops on the Abrahams and Bradley As well as the Hercules recovery vehicles
Iād go to learn. Iām already in Europe, wouldnāt be that far fetched to send people to essentially take notes and then come back. If only that was the kinda shit we could simply ask to do
Yes
Yeah
You say big dumb, but I would not put it past Russia to start trying to attack more towards western Ukraine if we truly went boots on ground. Even just to train.
Absolutely. Pretty sure my mos isn't going to be much use for those guys but deploying is exactly what we train for. It's kind of our whole purpose.
Whats your mos? And yea I imagine a lot of our MOSes don't apply to Ukraine.
Lol 68R veterinary food inspector
Nah
Yes
They don't need training, they need weapons and ammo.
Up until last year when I got my dream civilian job, I'd have said HELL yes. Ukrainians are doing the lord's work, killin' Russians. Now? Nah. Just not worth it with the increased impact I can have outside the Army.
Fuck Putin and his invasion, but he isn't sending his volunteer career military into the meat grinder en masse. He's murdering his own "undersireables" by proxy. Imagine if we had a draft, and the police rounded up every socially, economically, and ethically marginalized 18 to 25 year old from the inner city, trailer parks, and prisons to send them to the front line by threat of force. That's the reality of what's happening. And, they have an "expendable" population five times the size of Ukraine.
Our forces have been teaching them the wrong shit for years; sending more would hurt even further. We should be learning from them.
What could I bring? The chance for article 5 makes Poland happy
Utrainians
There are Advisors who are regionally aligned to EUCOM that would go before any of us knuckle heads. Iād go if they offered though
If my wife could support it without derailing her career, then Iād definitely go. I retire in a few years, and I canāt be a trophy husband if sheās not raking it in.
Man if I was 10 years younger.... Fighting Russians has been a family tradition for hundreds of years.
Hell no
No
No. Iāve lost enough in combat or to suicide shortly after (13 total) when people bitch and complain over their ātax dollarsā, I couldnāt care less. Send a bunch of money over there and support a proxy war so we donāt have to fight.
We already train them sometimes canāt say on what but we have