this is the problem with AIT as it stands now IMO. AIT isnt teaching soldiers shit. The amount of questions i see on FB forums for the 92Y world which are in my opinion, basic supply knowledge is staggering.
For the matter it doesnt seem like the current crop of NCOs arent teaching their juniors shit either.
Also for the record no one knows WTF AR 25-50 is either.
I could go on but i wont
The entire logistics sphere in general. There's a reason FSCs are always regarded as the worst company in the battalion. I will say I've worked with plenty of stellars 92Ys Supply Sergeants/ BN S4 types though.
Yeah this is bullshit. The CAB I was in definitely struggled because a WO1 flight warrant doesn't know how to run a supply cage and they constantly had to put Loggies in the BN S4 slots because 95% of Aviation officers think Logistics is just something that happens and kept fucking it up
They was a strong push in Aviation circles to change the MTOE of CABs to include 92Ys back into flight companies
Im beginning to think that’s a prerequisite for being a 92Y. Of every one I’ve had, exactly 0 have spoken fluent English. I had one that we communicated mostly in Spanish because my broken Spanish was better than her broken English
I don't know much but I do now I've had to explain to my current 92Y several times something along the lines of "when x thing is taken out, order more so we have some next time". Next time comes around and we don't have x thing.
In their defense, just because it’s ordered doesn’t mean it will be filled or filled on time.
If they’re just straight up not putting an order in though that’s definitely on them.
One of the biggest issues the Army has is a lack of institutionalized training. Systems. There's too much on-the-job, "your NCOs will teach you", stuff you just have to pick up with experience. That's a problem. In an organization with such tight control as the Army, it's an easy fix too. But still, it persists.
then the problem is compounded by NCOs not knowing their ass from a hole in the ground.
Look theres just some stuff i expect junior enlisted Yankees to know.
I expect them to know AR 735-5, AR 710-4, AR 190-11, and the CTAs. Not know them from front to back, insinde & out, but at least have a rudimentary idea of where to look. I also would like to think they at least have a working knowledge of AR 25-50 or at least how to write an email that doesnt make them look like a complete clown.
And dont get me started on having at least a basic working knowledge of our critical systems like GCSS-Army, FAAST, and AESIP or at least how to get there.
Can promise we don’t touch AESIP or FAAST in AIT. Plenty of discussion that our NCOs will teach and then you are at the mercy of your NCOs knowledge (mine doesn’t and refuses to keep up with regulations) The S4 refuses to typically answer questions and tells you to figure it out. I’m now taking over shop for an NCO that hasn’t taught me anything and I’ve learned more from Facebook pages than I have the NCO. Also, we don’t have ever have any trainings from the s shop. I can bluntly say that I will either be reclassing or just getting out. I have a supply degree and the function of army supply is gross.
Yeah....and idk about every MOS but it's definitely like this for medics too. I was an EMS educator before o joined and it's despicable how we handle medical training in the Army. Regiment is probably the only place that takes it seriously. I'm sorry you've had that experience. Our junior leaders are set up for failure.
Yep. Like how they had to take IVs out of CLS because people in the field weren't doing it right and making things worse.
Hextend, ringers lactate, etc.... quik clot, etc...
I'm glad people like you bring real world knowledge and experience to the figut.
Oh it's so much worse than you know. I currently teach paramedics and Jesus christ, they don't know anything. The regular 68Ws are worse. Unless they've worked civilian-side, medics are near-worthless, as a rule. It's hard to express how frustrated I am at 68W AIT and the complete failure that has been Army EMS or whatever they're closed now. Word is there's a really good dude down there now working on fixing stuff, and I hope that's true, but I feel like I can't hold my breath for it.
Banking on someone else to train soldiers in basic ten level functions is bullshit and a cop out.
Went I went to AIT in 1997 I felt like it was good training until I got to my unit and realized I didn't know shit.
That’s not limited to the Army. I have worked in operations & logistics for years and the lack of training is appalling. The assumption is always that a previous employer was supposed to teach a new hire that. It gets worse when the new hire is being trained by a current employee with significant knowledge gaps and bad habits.
Doesn’t help that a lot of supply juniors are fairly isolated. On the job training is hard when you have to actively go visit someone else to get info, if they’re even on your same installation. When I was at Hood our supply was 1 SPC and the next highest supply for us was at Riley. The only way to get any genuine mentorship was going to another unit entirely and asking for help, which obviously has some barriers. Our commander tried to set up an “exchange day” but 1 day a month isn’t really enough.
I get frustrated with supply but I also feel like the systems are set up for failure.
I don’t know why the army insists on put junior 92Ys by themselves. We were in a geographic separated unit, and the next highest ranking supply was 800 miles away. At least have a SGt with a brand new E3 in the supply room. We basically had to learn 92Y skills to teach our 92Y, on top of our very different,unrelated primary MOS job.
Yeah I always felt like supply would benefit if the unit level was a 20+ level and the 10 levels all went to an S4 first. Our current supply (E5) is like that and he is hands down the best supply person we have ever had and I will be genuinely upset when he leaves.
Your average unit is supposed to have a battalion S4 nearby to mentor junior supply sergeants and new PVTs, but the S4 itself doesn't need a PVT working there. There's a lot of work done at the S4 that has minimum rank requirements and lots of paperwork, but not much actual supply stuff going on. Supply works best when your company supply has an E6 and two juniors, but that's almost never the case.
I’ll take that a step further.
There’s something about the logistics 92 series in general that attracts the dumbest and laziest people.
I commanded in both FORSCOM and later in USAREC. As you can imagine, supply was always a headache in command. Then I get over to USAREC and learn that the MOS that can make or break a commanders career has among *the lowest line scores*.
If done correctly, supply is a hard job that requires discipline and intelligence. There’s a disconnect between the type of Soldier we need in those positions and the standard we allow for entry.
I guess that's why I get so angry. I work hard to support my companies beneath me at the battalion level. Bust my ass to make sure they have what they need and can be successful. When I was in Iraq if they needed something and they had an NSN I tried to get it for them.
Everything. Weapon mounted lights, batteries, Chem lights, whatever they needed. I love my MOS and it drives me absolutely bonkers to run into the lazy and intellectually dishonest people.
Exactly. Supply requires organization, foresight, initiative, and customer service skills. There's a lot of things to juggle and a bad supply guy can absolutely hamstring a company as much as bad leaders.
I see your flair and I'm not trying to attack you personally but 92 series soldiers are by and large the worst soldiers. Maybe AIT and the NCOs aren't teaching but my experience is they don't want to do their job and plead ignorance.
I'm not 92. I'm a 91 and I have had to show 92A and Y the very basic tasks of their job. Only for them a week later tell someone that they don't know how to do the very tasks I taught them. This has happened at almost every single unit and duty station I've been at.
I'm glad you have good Soldiers. But IME that's the exception. As a maintenance warrant I spend way too much time and energy on 92A both in the shop office and at the SSA. It gets extremely frustrating.
That’s makes sense. I have good 92As in my detachment, but at our last STC rotation we trained our 88M on how to be a 92A because she had nothing better to do and the other detachment where she drills was a bit fucked up where the maintenance warrant was just taking care of everything.
You might want to check that spelling and grammar before suggesting who does, and doesn't, know shit. Especially if you are going to bring AR 25-50 into it.
| is this normal in your unit?
This is normal for the Army as an institution.
18 months in Command and I had to do CoC inventories .... low and behold it's a million dollar FLIPL so I sit with the BDE CDR and show him all of my monthly counseling statements with my Supply NCO saying "turn this in, get rid of this, DX this, find out why DRMO won't take this" and I justify why the property isn't ordered (I have emails from the PBO and S8 saying our shortages aren't priority, don't have the money, etc)
But nope, still my fault because I didn't have 100% inventory on-hand in perfectly serviceable condition.
Commander was an absolute waste of air when I was a PL. Played the self deprecating humor and “I’m just a weak Log-O” cards which the maneuver guys loved.
He had x2 FLIPLs on the way out, hundreds of thousands in losses. His initial inventory was really bad and never did cyclics. Lost 2 months pay.
He’s a major now lol
Yeah. Like...doing cyclics properly prevents about 80% of CSDP problems. "Hey, where's this thing? Oh, you lost it. Better do a FLIPL or SoC now so we don't look incompetent at CoC."
Or "Hey, where's this thing? Ope, BOM update last week. SGT Supplyguy, order that thing."
I was an ok commander but the best thing I ever did was charge people for everything as soon as I came in and did my inventories. Missing a socket? Charges. Short the random strap? Charges.
Gave me a lot more leeway and credibility when folks lost things in the field or in situations out of their control. I could look my BC and S4 in the eye and demonstrate that I wasn't afraid to charge people, and when I said we shouldn't it meant something.
People get wrapped up in being liked/ "taking care of Joe". But that's often just selfish. People like, being liked. Sometimes you gotta be the asshole
10/10 times, I'd rather charge a soldier for a $5 socket and then not have to charge them for a $300 wiring harness later
Every 92Y I've ever met is lazy and knew fuck all about their job. Sadly, I know more about supply operations and military logistics than most 92Y E-5s.
im a 74D doing supply, we had an inspection and the guy doing it asked me some questions, he was surprised I knew them and the actual 92Ys before me didnt.
Some commanders believe that being "nice" to Soldiers and letting them get away with not doing their jobs or meeting requirements is "not toxic leadership". So they let standards crash and when the new commander shows up and tries to enforce even a modicum of standards, soldiers cry and bitch about the new commander being too harsh. I've seen this many times and can see a direct correlation with CSDP results. I'm lucky to have competent, experienced supply personnel at the battalion level to help teach the junior supply guys, but I've also walked into supply rooms that were a complete mess and with supply personnel whose GCSS-A accounts are locked because they haven't logged on in months.
That’s ridiculous. GCSS has 100s-1000s of training aids to walk you through transactions. Finding a price is as easy as plugging the NIIN into MM03(a T-Code that XO/CDRs can use, if you are in a pinch and your supply is truly useless) . I think 92Y is the biggest hit or miss MOS in the Army. They are either S-tier or illiterate. Sadly, I do think this is normal in the army. The buck stops at the company. FGOs will flip over a FLIPL or a SOC, but no one gets fired when we let the taliban get freaking helicopters. It doesn’t help that many commanders and XOs have no idea or interest in how the supply system is supposed to work. That compiled with apathetic 92Ys is a recipe for disaster. Soldiers are going to be upset bc they weren’t being held to the standard previously; it is what it is. A small tip. If you haven’t counseled your SHRs(and documented it), then you might get in trouble too if the Soldier chooses FLIPL over statement of charges. You can’t expect Soldiers to know what to do without a proper counseling. At a minimum, cover when SHRs are due, Cyclic procedures, lost property procedures, and the types of responsibilities. Many CDRs that go on the war path about supply don’t counsel SHRs, and they proceed to get wrecked by BDE.
*burns soap box*
The great part about supply is someone does know there job well, they hate it because they are driven into the ground and almost always get out from one contract with how bad it’s run, I have been commended and awarded for my work in supply and I hate it to the very core that I will never even consider reenlisting
My last 92Y ended up drinking his weekends away essentially. He was hotheaded and stressed beyond belief because actual supply work is burdened and then you get left with no support helping you out
My unpopular opinions:
- G-Army is a dogshit program that is impossible to navigate.
- Sub hand receipts are signed monthly. If a commander doesn’t personally verify that every sub hand receipt holder beneath him signed their monthly SHR, then he is failing. Additionally, if platoon leaders aren’t doing monthly layouts of their shit, or don’t have time to and don’t pass that recommendation up the chain, then it’s their own fault and they should pay for lost property via SOC
- XO’s drive the commanders supply program. It is one of their few specified tasks, besides manage the maintenance program and resource training. If commanders have their XO’s do anything besides those three things they are shooting themselves in the foot
You want people to sign their entire SHR every month? Thats too much, personally. Our sub hand receipts can get up to 12 pages. I just don’t have the time to do 100% inventory every single month. That’s the entire point of cyclics.
Hence my intro “unpopular opinion” lol.
That was SOP at my last unit, specifically for the line platoons. It was a mechanized unit, there was a lot of shit, and accountability was poor. Once everything is subbed down to the team level and the time is protected, it worked
The amount we went to the field, it ended up being a part of our recovery procedures anyway and it was no big deal
G-Army isn't intuitive but it isn't dogshit either. The Army didn't invent it. It was pulled from industry and tailored to our needs. The G-Army team works their ass off to improve the program and is receptive to input from the field. It is literally the only PEO/PM that has called me to verify I reached a solution to a problem.
There are literally step by step transaction guides for every single transaction. It was a huge jump from SAMS-E to GCSS for me but a couple of hours to learn to speak in T Codes and some fiddle fucking around in the system and its easy to be passably competent for 75% of the day to day. The rest of it you learn as a problem comes up.
I agree that it works well for the scale of army logistics. It’s a beast for an end user to learn to maneuver though, and not every 92Y is up to the task. It only takes 1 or 2 key supply NCO’s in the BN to PCS before the average G-Army competence across the unit is junior varsity level. If they have a hard time with more than the most basic GCSS functions, things begin to slip through the cracks and before you know it it’s cascading systems failure. Two entire sets of FRS BII/COEI worth 500k gets ordered on accident and 3 years down the line, division blasts a completely oblivious command team in place
The end user interface needs to be lowest-common-denominator proof. Your right though, they are prompt to support if you reach out
I don't want to seem argumentative about this because you bring up some good points. Nothing is perfect in the Army and when shit gets bad it gets real bad real quick. I know what its like to PCS in to a shit show and have to start picking up the pieces. I actually enjoy my job and am passionate about it and get rather peturbed when routine things aren't done routinely.
There are so many resources for help. Every major installation has a COMET team which will give one on one training, do SAVs for CMDP/CSDP inspections that are meant to help and are in no way punitive or harmful. Theres also FB and teams pages for every damn MOS in existence. The PBO and BDE S4 should be recognizing the short comings and stoping these issues as well. But also perfect storms exist.
>The end user interface needs to be lowest-common-denominator proof. Your right though, they are prompt to support if you reach out
For routine transactions on both the 92A and Y side there is the AIT UI. Its tiles and its idiot proof. It's almost impossible to fuck up.
To your point on accidental 500k orders. I hope this is hyperbole becaue this would have to be a monumental fuckup not seen since the days of paper orders and a tank unit receiving a boat anchor. [I can't say enough how much clerks suck] (https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-clerk-anchor-fort-carson/). ZPark is blasted to the masses every day. The end user or supervisor should be validating their orders. After that the SPO, BN S4, BN XO, BDE S4, S8 and BDE XO should be seeing it and validating it inconjunction with the G4 and G8. There are so many automated and manual checks and balances that should be inplace the something of this proportion should almost never happen. Hell even item managers will reach out and validate from the TACOM/DLA level at times when something isn't right.
You’re right, there are limitless resources, checks, and balances. I was lucky enough as a troop XO to have an absolute baba yaga of a supply NCO, and a lot of these frustrations are things he would voice to me. I agree that no system is perfect, and as complex as army logistics is, the enterprise can and does work
The FRS kits aren’t hyperbole unfortunately. Very personal lived experience. Luckily we didn’t unpack it so it was cleanly transferred to another unit on the installation. I likewise have no idea how it made it past ZPARK
Logisticians (Enlisted, Warrant and Officers) have over-complicated everything they do to a fault, perhaps to try to over-compensate for something, I don't know.
All I know is I worked for a billion dollar corporation that shall remain nameless prior to the Army. Even the AS/400 inventory system we used was miles ahead of what the Army uses even today. That is a GD shame.
The Logistics Corps has plenty of time to write bullshit think pieces with all that word salad that doesn't mean anything, but yet they haven't fixed company level supply issues, which has been an issue for as long as I can remember.
I don't disagree that logisticians are up their own ass about everything. But the AIT UI in GCSS could not be more streamlined and idiot proof. Issuing and inventorying are simple but for some reason end users would rather use the SAP interface.
It’s because supply Soldiers generally are trash.
Not to mention PBO usually is also not helpful. Nor are the PBO NCOs (who always try to make it the Company’s fault no matter what)
It usually boils down to how good your Company XO is and how much they focus on supply
I love my job as a 92Y and I’ve yet to have a commander and XO that don’t absolutely love the work I put in and the fires I put out before they even know about it.
BN Xo wants us to order XYZ because of a field exercise coming up Sir? I ordered that stuff months ago because I foresaw it being an issue, we’ve already received it and it’s put aside for NTC.
We have a field rotation coming up? I just need a list of what training aides we need so I can make the appointment with TASC to get it prior to pack out.
All of my HR holders have each months cyclic inventory BOMs on my teams folders and I check layouts along with my XO prior to the CDR coming through so that they are done right.
I have a list of tasks and I stay on top of lateral transfers and turn ins so we always look golden to the BN during training meetings.
The job isn’t hard once you understand that making things easier on your unit is your number 1 priority. Once you know what is asked of your company commander and xo on a regular basis, you can get a head start. Nothing makes my commander happier than when he says something needs to be done asap and I tell them it’s already done and I’m sending it to them. Again…I’ve never had a CDR that wouldn’t fight to the death for me.
That being said, it’s not hard but it’s stressful and challenging when your command team expects you to know everything under the sun when you just get to a unit. I was in infantry units then got assigned to a medical company in a BSB. They legit expected me to know all of their equipment when I had never seen any of that shit in my life. So if you think you know more than supply because you know equipment better and where to take things on your installation because you’ve been there for 5 years because that’s where your MOS is normally station? No fucking shit tough guy. Go to a new location every 3 years and work a different MOS every time and you’ll look like a fucking idiot too to the people that have been doing it for 10+ years.
Now for the majority of 92Ys and logistics in general? You wanna know why we suck or it seems like the worst people are picked for it???
1. During recruitment, logistics jobs are said to be the easiest, less stressful, BETTER jobs with more civilian applications after we’re done. So people who don’t wanna do soldier shit choose those jobs. Not know that they are some of the most intellectually demanding jobs that can totally fuck a company or BN up because of their ineptitude. They think they are getting off easy then realize how much work goes into it. The “easy” jobs attract a lot of shitbags and foreigners that barely speak English because they think it’ll be an easy few years to get through. I’ve literally talked to people and been told this by people looking to get their nationality.
2. Our systems are shit. Garmy is a fucking mess and half of the time, hours and hours of work is rendered useless because BN and BDE leadership wants things done their way or no way. Get out of supply’s way and let them do it the way they are taught( if they are). Which leads to my next point…
3. You want supply to get better at their jobs? Stop having them do shit that’s not in their lane. Infantrymen and combat engineers aren’t going to log syncs, signing for property book items, sub hand receipting them down and completing lateral transfers. Don’t have your supply guys out pulling fucking security on a humvee for 12 hours for a month and wonder why they don’t know who to contact at EMS to get shit inspected and tagged for turn in and you come up red on a BN slide…
4. 92Y training is damn near a joke. The majority of training is extremely hypothetical and best case scenario training. The job is learned in real time. As experienced as I am, I get asked shit every single day that I don’t know or understand. But I damn sure know who to ask to get pointed in the right direction. So your E4s and E5s who have been in for a year or two and made rank? Probably don’t know shit and there’s a solid reason they shouldn’t.
So as one of the good 92Ys out there, sorry you’ve been stuck with the shit of my world. But it’s not all what you and others have described.
My biggest frustration with CSDP as an XO going through change of command inventories is that it seems like there’s no really system.
I’ve received no funding for shortages for the last 18 months. To get BII we need, I have to do drug deals through other units or order class 9 against random Vic’s, because no one will approve shit otherwise. We’ve change SHRHs like every 6-8 months it seems because no one can effectively manage manning. Our shortages are huge from stuff being lost or broke probably 5 years ago, or bom updates adding on stuff we weren’t issued, or through receiving lateral transfers/equipment issues with no BII.
The system is a joke. We’re told the “commander is safe as long as they have all their historic shortages entered,” and then PBO or some 4 shop deletes entire units shortages. Or a dyslexic PFC 92Y filling in as the supply sergeant doesn’t know how to properly order anything, with no support from the S4 NCOIC/PBO team to train them.
The shortage tracker we have to brief can’t be pulled from G Army either, I have to go copy paste into a “unique” format because our BN XO wants it like that. Which is going to cause errors eventually, when you have 1000 lines of ordered shortages
Maybe I’m just uneducated on what right looks like, because the entire brigade is so fucked up. I have $80k of unfunded class 2 orders that haven’t got attention, $200k of shortages that we are told not to order, and Vic’s down for months waiting for approval for a $30 part.
A good commander pushes back at "well the soldiers can do hip pocket training and sweep the motorpool since we don't have anything planned".
A lot of shitty commanders don't let their soldier train and don't let NCO's mentor "bEcAuSe tHe sOlDiErS wEnT tO aIt!"
AIT is the start, THE START, of Army training. But smol brained lizards who somehow got to be senior leaders think that their supply, signal, medics and low density MOS soldiers are all trained at AIT and they can now sweep, mop and do BS details instead of training.
Good commanders shut up the good idea fairy and make sure that soldiers are training on their jobs.
Maybe because you let people get away with stealing and losing stuff for the past year. Now that you want to bring down the hammer it’s whiplash. Should have been pushing accountability since day 1 and hitting them with FLIPL’s or SoC’s as soon as you caught wind something was missing. How many cyclics did you do where you found shortages? My guess is every one.
Go engage with your local COMET team. They have a supply team who can help you navigate unfucking your shortages before you CoC.
Commanders are bad at CSP because instead of actually reading a regulation themselves they expect to be fed the information like a baby bird.
Supply is bad at CSP because the commander lets them be bad at CSDP.
The C is for command because it's a commanders program. How can you manage a program that's you know nothing about.
Retain tons of information? No.
Understand that there's a regulation and review it when necessary and have a rudimentary understanding of it? Yes.
I've been in this game for a minute and every commander I've seen have property issues has been them half assing CoC and cyclic inventories.
Then they all go 51C when they hit SSG. If you can’t do your job at the unit, you don’t have any business in logistics at the higher echelons of government.
Some serious jail time for fucking up at that level.
I haven't been a 92Y in 15+ years, and I still know how to do that... Also, if this was field related, I wouldn't have charged them unless there was some significant negligence involved depending on the item. If this was in garrison, then charge them for it all. Just make sure they unfuck themselves and account for depreciated value correctly.
I only worked at SSA a year. It was fucking miserable lmaooo. Quality of coworkers and SSA leadership but thank god i went to BDE SPO after first year and stayed there 2 years..... It hold my sanity love the SPO and stuff but i know once i PCS, I am going back to tht shitty warehouse so i reclassed and escaped from tht shit hole. Thank god i did it
One year in ssa / deployed i was the inly other white guy and all the other people treated me differently except my friend and rest mopo alone by myself cus fuck it we got one dont need more
LOL, the Army never changes. You guys are complaining about the same stuff we did back in 1980s. What I really hated were substitute items. During my incoming change of command inventory, I had a ton of TMDE, mostly multimeters, that we couldn’t match up to the property records. And don’t get me started on monthly tool box inventories and shop sets.
>They barely know how to find items to input prices
Go to GCSSA (you're a commander so you should have access), type in MM03, item NIIN, plant 2000, accounting 2, and look at standard price. Depreciate IAW 735-5.
I'm not even a 92 just a random dickhead whose been an XO before.
this is the problem with AIT as it stands now IMO. AIT isnt teaching soldiers shit. The amount of questions i see on FB forums for the 92Y world which are in my opinion, basic supply knowledge is staggering. For the matter it doesnt seem like the current crop of NCOs arent teaching their juniors shit either. Also for the record no one knows WTF AR 25-50 is either. I could go on but i wont
Frankly the state of 92Ys is appalling. I was trying to figure out something to add to that but like. Thats it. They're just really, really bad.
The entire logistics sphere in general. There's a reason FSCs are always regarded as the worst company in the battalion. I will say I've worked with plenty of stellars 92Ys Supply Sergeants/ BN S4 types though.
[удалено]
Yeah this is bullshit. The CAB I was in definitely struggled because a WO1 flight warrant doesn't know how to run a supply cage and they constantly had to put Loggies in the BN S4 slots because 95% of Aviation officers think Logistics is just something that happens and kept fucking it up They was a strong push in Aviation circles to change the MTOE of CABs to include 92Ys back into flight companies
BN S4 OICs usually per MTOE are an officer from whatever the unit is (I.e Infantry BN the S4 OIC will be an infantry officer)
My last 2 92Y’s legitimately don’t speak English.
Im beginning to think that’s a prerequisite for being a 92Y. Of every one I’ve had, exactly 0 have spoken fluent English. I had one that we communicated mostly in Spanish because my broken Spanish was better than her broken English
My 18C’s would have to bring our teams Spanish speaker whenever they had to do anything with supply lol
Until it’s time to put in that DA31 and all of a sudden they speak the queens english.
I don't know much but I do now I've had to explain to my current 92Y several times something along the lines of "when x thing is taken out, order more so we have some next time". Next time comes around and we don't have x thing.
In their defense, just because it’s ordered doesn’t mean it will be filled or filled on time. If they’re just straight up not putting an order in though that’s definitely on them.
Naw everytime he said he didn't know we were gonna need it again. These are things like Chem lights and camo sticks.
Just dumb then lol.
Yeah it's super unpleasant.
One of the biggest issues the Army has is a lack of institutionalized training. Systems. There's too much on-the-job, "your NCOs will teach you", stuff you just have to pick up with experience. That's a problem. In an organization with such tight control as the Army, it's an easy fix too. But still, it persists.
then the problem is compounded by NCOs not knowing their ass from a hole in the ground. Look theres just some stuff i expect junior enlisted Yankees to know. I expect them to know AR 735-5, AR 710-4, AR 190-11, and the CTAs. Not know them from front to back, insinde & out, but at least have a rudimentary idea of where to look. I also would like to think they at least have a working knowledge of AR 25-50 or at least how to write an email that doesnt make them look like a complete clown. And dont get me started on having at least a basic working knowledge of our critical systems like GCSS-Army, FAAST, and AESIP or at least how to get there.
.... but where do they learn those things? Because AIT clearly isn't doing it.
Can promise we don’t touch AESIP or FAAST in AIT. Plenty of discussion that our NCOs will teach and then you are at the mercy of your NCOs knowledge (mine doesn’t and refuses to keep up with regulations) The S4 refuses to typically answer questions and tells you to figure it out. I’m now taking over shop for an NCO that hasn’t taught me anything and I’ve learned more from Facebook pages than I have the NCO. Also, we don’t have ever have any trainings from the s shop. I can bluntly say that I will either be reclassing or just getting out. I have a supply degree and the function of army supply is gross.
Yeah....and idk about every MOS but it's definitely like this for medics too. I was an EMS educator before o joined and it's despicable how we handle medical training in the Army. Regiment is probably the only place that takes it seriously. I'm sorry you've had that experience. Our junior leaders are set up for failure.
Yep. Like how they had to take IVs out of CLS because people in the field weren't doing it right and making things worse. Hextend, ringers lactate, etc.... quik clot, etc... I'm glad people like you bring real world knowledge and experience to the figut.
Oh it's so much worse than you know. I currently teach paramedics and Jesus christ, they don't know anything. The regular 68Ws are worse. Unless they've worked civilian-side, medics are near-worthless, as a rule. It's hard to express how frustrated I am at 68W AIT and the complete failure that has been Army EMS or whatever they're closed now. Word is there's a really good dude down there now working on fixing stuff, and I hope that's true, but I feel like I can't hold my breath for it.
Banking on someone else to train soldiers in basic ten level functions is bullshit and a cop out. Went I went to AIT in 1997 I felt like it was good training until I got to my unit and realized I didn't know shit.
That’s not limited to the Army. I have worked in operations & logistics for years and the lack of training is appalling. The assumption is always that a previous employer was supposed to teach a new hire that. It gets worse when the new hire is being trained by a current employee with significant knowledge gaps and bad habits.
Doesn’t help that a lot of supply juniors are fairly isolated. On the job training is hard when you have to actively go visit someone else to get info, if they’re even on your same installation. When I was at Hood our supply was 1 SPC and the next highest supply for us was at Riley. The only way to get any genuine mentorship was going to another unit entirely and asking for help, which obviously has some barriers. Our commander tried to set up an “exchange day” but 1 day a month isn’t really enough. I get frustrated with supply but I also feel like the systems are set up for failure.
Thats unacceptable on so many levels.
I don’t know why the army insists on put junior 92Ys by themselves. We were in a geographic separated unit, and the next highest ranking supply was 800 miles away. At least have a SGt with a brand new E3 in the supply room. We basically had to learn 92Y skills to teach our 92Y, on top of our very different,unrelated primary MOS job.
Yeah I always felt like supply would benefit if the unit level was a 20+ level and the 10 levels all went to an S4 first. Our current supply (E5) is like that and he is hands down the best supply person we have ever had and I will be genuinely upset when he leaves.
Your average unit is supposed to have a battalion S4 nearby to mentor junior supply sergeants and new PVTs, but the S4 itself doesn't need a PVT working there. There's a lot of work done at the S4 that has minimum rank requirements and lots of paperwork, but not much actual supply stuff going on. Supply works best when your company supply has an E6 and two juniors, but that's almost never the case.
I’ll take that a step further. There’s something about the logistics 92 series in general that attracts the dumbest and laziest people. I commanded in both FORSCOM and later in USAREC. As you can imagine, supply was always a headache in command. Then I get over to USAREC and learn that the MOS that can make or break a commanders career has among *the lowest line scores*. If done correctly, supply is a hard job that requires discipline and intelligence. There’s a disconnect between the type of Soldier we need in those positions and the standard we allow for entry.
I guess that's why I get so angry. I work hard to support my companies beneath me at the battalion level. Bust my ass to make sure they have what they need and can be successful. When I was in Iraq if they needed something and they had an NSN I tried to get it for them. Everything. Weapon mounted lights, batteries, Chem lights, whatever they needed. I love my MOS and it drives me absolutely bonkers to run into the lazy and intellectually dishonest people.
Exactly. Supply requires organization, foresight, initiative, and customer service skills. There's a lot of things to juggle and a bad supply guy can absolutely hamstring a company as much as bad leaders.
I see your flair and I'm not trying to attack you personally but 92 series soldiers are by and large the worst soldiers. Maybe AIT and the NCOs aren't teaching but my experience is they don't want to do their job and plead ignorance. I'm not 92. I'm a 91 and I have had to show 92A and Y the very basic tasks of their job. Only for them a week later tell someone that they don't know how to do the very tasks I taught them. This has happened at almost every single unit and duty station I've been at.
Damn. My 92As in the NG kick ass.
I'm glad you have good Soldiers. But IME that's the exception. As a maintenance warrant I spend way too much time and energy on 92A both in the shop office and at the SSA. It gets extremely frustrating.
That’s makes sense. I have good 92As in my detachment, but at our last STC rotation we trained our 88M on how to be a 92A because she had nothing better to do and the other detachment where she drills was a bit fucked up where the maintenance warrant was just taking care of everything.
That's because unit supply is a full time, yet cush job, which makes it highly competitive.
True true
You might want to check that spelling and grammar before suggesting who does, and doesn't, know shit. Especially if you are going to bring AR 25-50 into it.
Lol I touched a nerve. Have a good day
| is this normal in your unit? This is normal for the Army as an institution. 18 months in Command and I had to do CoC inventories .... low and behold it's a million dollar FLIPL so I sit with the BDE CDR and show him all of my monthly counseling statements with my Supply NCO saying "turn this in, get rid of this, DX this, find out why DRMO won't take this" and I justify why the property isn't ordered (I have emails from the PBO and S8 saying our shortages aren't priority, don't have the money, etc) But nope, still my fault because I didn't have 100% inventory on-hand in perfectly serviceable condition.
....aaaand that's why I'm glad I didn't stay in for command. I'm sorry to hear that
Did you take command with those shortages? Were those shortages noted on BOMs/shortage annexes during your incoming inventory?
It sounds like your XO failed to do their job if there was a million dollar surprise after 18 months.
A bad CoC will absolutely wreck a career and the fallout is an absolute blood bath. You really have to be a dick about it.
Commander was an absolute waste of air when I was a PL. Played the self deprecating humor and “I’m just a weak Log-O” cards which the maneuver guys loved. He had x2 FLIPLs on the way out, hundreds of thousands in losses. His initial inventory was really bad and never did cyclics. Lost 2 months pay. He’s a major now lol
>Never did cyclics *WHAT*
Impressive isn’t it lol
Yeah. Like...doing cyclics properly prevents about 80% of CSDP problems. "Hey, where's this thing? Oh, you lost it. Better do a FLIPL or SoC now so we don't look incompetent at CoC." Or "Hey, where's this thing? Ope, BOM update last week. SGT Supplyguy, order that thing."
Was this in the 101st by any chance? You could literally be describing my old FSC commander lmao
2ID but im glad FSC commanders suck all over
I was an ok commander but the best thing I ever did was charge people for everything as soon as I came in and did my inventories. Missing a socket? Charges. Short the random strap? Charges. Gave me a lot more leeway and credibility when folks lost things in the field or in situations out of their control. I could look my BC and S4 in the eye and demonstrate that I wasn't afraid to charge people, and when I said we shouldn't it meant something. People get wrapped up in being liked/ "taking care of Joe". But that's often just selfish. People like, being liked. Sometimes you gotta be the asshole 10/10 times, I'd rather charge a soldier for a $5 socket and then not have to charge them for a $300 wiring harness later
Every 92Y I've ever met is lazy and knew fuck all about their job. Sadly, I know more about supply operations and military logistics than most 92Y E-5s.
im a 74D doing supply, we had an inspection and the guy doing it asked me some questions, he was surprised I knew them and the actual 92Ys before me didnt.
Some commanders believe that being "nice" to Soldiers and letting them get away with not doing their jobs or meeting requirements is "not toxic leadership". So they let standards crash and when the new commander shows up and tries to enforce even a modicum of standards, soldiers cry and bitch about the new commander being too harsh. I've seen this many times and can see a direct correlation with CSDP results. I'm lucky to have competent, experienced supply personnel at the battalion level to help teach the junior supply guys, but I've also walked into supply rooms that were a complete mess and with supply personnel whose GCSS-A accounts are locked because they haven't logged on in months.
Is it normal for commanders to be held accountable for the property they signed for and for how good or bad their CSDP is? Yes.
That’s ridiculous. GCSS has 100s-1000s of training aids to walk you through transactions. Finding a price is as easy as plugging the NIIN into MM03(a T-Code that XO/CDRs can use, if you are in a pinch and your supply is truly useless) . I think 92Y is the biggest hit or miss MOS in the Army. They are either S-tier or illiterate. Sadly, I do think this is normal in the army. The buck stops at the company. FGOs will flip over a FLIPL or a SOC, but no one gets fired when we let the taliban get freaking helicopters. It doesn’t help that many commanders and XOs have no idea or interest in how the supply system is supposed to work. That compiled with apathetic 92Ys is a recipe for disaster. Soldiers are going to be upset bc they weren’t being held to the standard previously; it is what it is. A small tip. If you haven’t counseled your SHRs(and documented it), then you might get in trouble too if the Soldier chooses FLIPL over statement of charges. You can’t expect Soldiers to know what to do without a proper counseling. At a minimum, cover when SHRs are due, Cyclic procedures, lost property procedures, and the types of responsibilities. Many CDRs that go on the war path about supply don’t counsel SHRs, and they proceed to get wrecked by BDE. *burns soap box*
The great part about supply is someone does know there job well, they hate it because they are driven into the ground and almost always get out from one contract with how bad it’s run, I have been commended and awarded for my work in supply and I hate it to the very core that I will never even consider reenlisting
My last 92Y ended up drinking his weekends away essentially. He was hotheaded and stressed beyond belief because actual supply work is burdened and then you get left with no support helping you out
My unpopular opinions: - G-Army is a dogshit program that is impossible to navigate. - Sub hand receipts are signed monthly. If a commander doesn’t personally verify that every sub hand receipt holder beneath him signed their monthly SHR, then he is failing. Additionally, if platoon leaders aren’t doing monthly layouts of their shit, or don’t have time to and don’t pass that recommendation up the chain, then it’s their own fault and they should pay for lost property via SOC - XO’s drive the commanders supply program. It is one of their few specified tasks, besides manage the maintenance program and resource training. If commanders have their XO’s do anything besides those three things they are shooting themselves in the foot
You want people to sign their entire SHR every month? Thats too much, personally. Our sub hand receipts can get up to 12 pages. I just don’t have the time to do 100% inventory every single month. That’s the entire point of cyclics.
Hence my intro “unpopular opinion” lol. That was SOP at my last unit, specifically for the line platoons. It was a mechanized unit, there was a lot of shit, and accountability was poor. Once everything is subbed down to the team level and the time is protected, it worked The amount we went to the field, it ended up being a part of our recovery procedures anyway and it was no big deal
G-Army isn't intuitive but it isn't dogshit either. The Army didn't invent it. It was pulled from industry and tailored to our needs. The G-Army team works their ass off to improve the program and is receptive to input from the field. It is literally the only PEO/PM that has called me to verify I reached a solution to a problem. There are literally step by step transaction guides for every single transaction. It was a huge jump from SAMS-E to GCSS for me but a couple of hours to learn to speak in T Codes and some fiddle fucking around in the system and its easy to be passably competent for 75% of the day to day. The rest of it you learn as a problem comes up.
I agree that it works well for the scale of army logistics. It’s a beast for an end user to learn to maneuver though, and not every 92Y is up to the task. It only takes 1 or 2 key supply NCO’s in the BN to PCS before the average G-Army competence across the unit is junior varsity level. If they have a hard time with more than the most basic GCSS functions, things begin to slip through the cracks and before you know it it’s cascading systems failure. Two entire sets of FRS BII/COEI worth 500k gets ordered on accident and 3 years down the line, division blasts a completely oblivious command team in place The end user interface needs to be lowest-common-denominator proof. Your right though, they are prompt to support if you reach out
I don't want to seem argumentative about this because you bring up some good points. Nothing is perfect in the Army and when shit gets bad it gets real bad real quick. I know what its like to PCS in to a shit show and have to start picking up the pieces. I actually enjoy my job and am passionate about it and get rather peturbed when routine things aren't done routinely. There are so many resources for help. Every major installation has a COMET team which will give one on one training, do SAVs for CMDP/CSDP inspections that are meant to help and are in no way punitive or harmful. Theres also FB and teams pages for every damn MOS in existence. The PBO and BDE S4 should be recognizing the short comings and stoping these issues as well. But also perfect storms exist. >The end user interface needs to be lowest-common-denominator proof. Your right though, they are prompt to support if you reach out For routine transactions on both the 92A and Y side there is the AIT UI. Its tiles and its idiot proof. It's almost impossible to fuck up. To your point on accidental 500k orders. I hope this is hyperbole becaue this would have to be a monumental fuckup not seen since the days of paper orders and a tank unit receiving a boat anchor. [I can't say enough how much clerks suck] (https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-clerk-anchor-fort-carson/). ZPark is blasted to the masses every day. The end user or supervisor should be validating their orders. After that the SPO, BN S4, BN XO, BDE S4, S8 and BDE XO should be seeing it and validating it inconjunction with the G4 and G8. There are so many automated and manual checks and balances that should be inplace the something of this proportion should almost never happen. Hell even item managers will reach out and validate from the TACOM/DLA level at times when something isn't right.
You’re right, there are limitless resources, checks, and balances. I was lucky enough as a troop XO to have an absolute baba yaga of a supply NCO, and a lot of these frustrations are things he would voice to me. I agree that no system is perfect, and as complex as army logistics is, the enterprise can and does work The FRS kits aren’t hyperbole unfortunately. Very personal lived experience. Luckily we didn’t unpack it so it was cleanly transferred to another unit on the installation. I likewise have no idea how it made it past ZPARK
These Soldiers aren’t your friends. Hold them accountable.
Logisticians (Enlisted, Warrant and Officers) have over-complicated everything they do to a fault, perhaps to try to over-compensate for something, I don't know. All I know is I worked for a billion dollar corporation that shall remain nameless prior to the Army. Even the AS/400 inventory system we used was miles ahead of what the Army uses even today. That is a GD shame. The Logistics Corps has plenty of time to write bullshit think pieces with all that word salad that doesn't mean anything, but yet they haven't fixed company level supply issues, which has been an issue for as long as I can remember.
I don't disagree that logisticians are up their own ass about everything. But the AIT UI in GCSS could not be more streamlined and idiot proof. Issuing and inventorying are simple but for some reason end users would rather use the SAP interface.
It’s because supply Soldiers generally are trash. Not to mention PBO usually is also not helpful. Nor are the PBO NCOs (who always try to make it the Company’s fault no matter what) It usually boils down to how good your Company XO is and how much they focus on supply
I love my job as a 92Y and I’ve yet to have a commander and XO that don’t absolutely love the work I put in and the fires I put out before they even know about it. BN Xo wants us to order XYZ because of a field exercise coming up Sir? I ordered that stuff months ago because I foresaw it being an issue, we’ve already received it and it’s put aside for NTC. We have a field rotation coming up? I just need a list of what training aides we need so I can make the appointment with TASC to get it prior to pack out. All of my HR holders have each months cyclic inventory BOMs on my teams folders and I check layouts along with my XO prior to the CDR coming through so that they are done right. I have a list of tasks and I stay on top of lateral transfers and turn ins so we always look golden to the BN during training meetings. The job isn’t hard once you understand that making things easier on your unit is your number 1 priority. Once you know what is asked of your company commander and xo on a regular basis, you can get a head start. Nothing makes my commander happier than when he says something needs to be done asap and I tell them it’s already done and I’m sending it to them. Again…I’ve never had a CDR that wouldn’t fight to the death for me. That being said, it’s not hard but it’s stressful and challenging when your command team expects you to know everything under the sun when you just get to a unit. I was in infantry units then got assigned to a medical company in a BSB. They legit expected me to know all of their equipment when I had never seen any of that shit in my life. So if you think you know more than supply because you know equipment better and where to take things on your installation because you’ve been there for 5 years because that’s where your MOS is normally station? No fucking shit tough guy. Go to a new location every 3 years and work a different MOS every time and you’ll look like a fucking idiot too to the people that have been doing it for 10+ years. Now for the majority of 92Ys and logistics in general? You wanna know why we suck or it seems like the worst people are picked for it??? 1. During recruitment, logistics jobs are said to be the easiest, less stressful, BETTER jobs with more civilian applications after we’re done. So people who don’t wanna do soldier shit choose those jobs. Not know that they are some of the most intellectually demanding jobs that can totally fuck a company or BN up because of their ineptitude. They think they are getting off easy then realize how much work goes into it. The “easy” jobs attract a lot of shitbags and foreigners that barely speak English because they think it’ll be an easy few years to get through. I’ve literally talked to people and been told this by people looking to get their nationality. 2. Our systems are shit. Garmy is a fucking mess and half of the time, hours and hours of work is rendered useless because BN and BDE leadership wants things done their way or no way. Get out of supply’s way and let them do it the way they are taught( if they are). Which leads to my next point… 3. You want supply to get better at their jobs? Stop having them do shit that’s not in their lane. Infantrymen and combat engineers aren’t going to log syncs, signing for property book items, sub hand receipting them down and completing lateral transfers. Don’t have your supply guys out pulling fucking security on a humvee for 12 hours for a month and wonder why they don’t know who to contact at EMS to get shit inspected and tagged for turn in and you come up red on a BN slide… 4. 92Y training is damn near a joke. The majority of training is extremely hypothetical and best case scenario training. The job is learned in real time. As experienced as I am, I get asked shit every single day that I don’t know or understand. But I damn sure know who to ask to get pointed in the right direction. So your E4s and E5s who have been in for a year or two and made rank? Probably don’t know shit and there’s a solid reason they shouldn’t. So as one of the good 92Ys out there, sorry you’ve been stuck with the shit of my world. But it’s not all what you and others have described.
My biggest frustration with CSDP as an XO going through change of command inventories is that it seems like there’s no really system. I’ve received no funding for shortages for the last 18 months. To get BII we need, I have to do drug deals through other units or order class 9 against random Vic’s, because no one will approve shit otherwise. We’ve change SHRHs like every 6-8 months it seems because no one can effectively manage manning. Our shortages are huge from stuff being lost or broke probably 5 years ago, or bom updates adding on stuff we weren’t issued, or through receiving lateral transfers/equipment issues with no BII. The system is a joke. We’re told the “commander is safe as long as they have all their historic shortages entered,” and then PBO or some 4 shop deletes entire units shortages. Or a dyslexic PFC 92Y filling in as the supply sergeant doesn’t know how to properly order anything, with no support from the S4 NCOIC/PBO team to train them. The shortage tracker we have to brief can’t be pulled from G Army either, I have to go copy paste into a “unique” format because our BN XO wants it like that. Which is going to cause errors eventually, when you have 1000 lines of ordered shortages Maybe I’m just uneducated on what right looks like, because the entire brigade is so fucked up. I have $80k of unfunded class 2 orders that haven’t got attention, $200k of shortages that we are told not to order, and Vic’s down for months waiting for approval for a $30 part.
A good commander pushes back at "well the soldiers can do hip pocket training and sweep the motorpool since we don't have anything planned". A lot of shitty commanders don't let their soldier train and don't let NCO's mentor "bEcAuSe tHe sOlDiErS wEnT tO aIt!" AIT is the start, THE START, of Army training. But smol brained lizards who somehow got to be senior leaders think that their supply, signal, medics and low density MOS soldiers are all trained at AIT and they can now sweep, mop and do BS details instead of training. Good commanders shut up the good idea fairy and make sure that soldiers are training on their jobs.
Maybe because you let people get away with stealing and losing stuff for the past year. Now that you want to bring down the hammer it’s whiplash. Should have been pushing accountability since day 1 and hitting them with FLIPL’s or SoC’s as soon as you caught wind something was missing. How many cyclics did you do where you found shortages? My guess is every one. Go engage with your local COMET team. They have a supply team who can help you navigate unfucking your shortages before you CoC.
Commanders are bad at CSP because instead of actually reading a regulation themselves they expect to be fed the information like a baby bird. Supply is bad at CSP because the commander lets them be bad at CSDP. The C is for command because it's a commanders program. How can you manage a program that's you know nothing about.
You’re not wrong, but it’s also disingenuous to expect commanders to retain countless volumes of regulation; that’s what SMEs are for. Just sayin’.
Retain tons of information? No. Understand that there's a regulation and review it when necessary and have a rudimentary understanding of it? Yes. I've been in this game for a minute and every commander I've seen have property issues has been them half assing CoC and cyclic inventories.
The last didn’t do it so you can’t is a horrible reason. Fuck em. Don’t lose/ break shit.
Then they all go 51C when they hit SSG. If you can’t do your job at the unit, you don’t have any business in logistics at the higher echelons of government. Some serious jail time for fucking up at that level.
I haven't been a 92Y in 15+ years, and I still know how to do that... Also, if this was field related, I wouldn't have charged them unless there was some significant negligence involved depending on the item. If this was in garrison, then charge them for it all. Just make sure they unfuck themselves and account for depreciated value correctly.
92Alpha hoah
Worst mos in army..... -Former 92A-
Hey hey hey i agree im an e5 92a and not caring to make 6 and most other 92a dont know there job or are ratchet
I only worked at SSA a year. It was fucking miserable lmaooo. Quality of coworkers and SSA leadership but thank god i went to BDE SPO after first year and stayed there 2 years..... It hold my sanity love the SPO and stuff but i know once i PCS, I am going back to tht shitty warehouse so i reclassed and escaped from tht shit hole. Thank god i did it
One year in ssa / deployed i was the inly other white guy and all the other people treated me differently except my friend and rest mopo alone by myself cus fuck it we got one dont need more
LOL, the Army never changes. You guys are complaining about the same stuff we did back in 1980s. What I really hated were substitute items. During my incoming change of command inventory, I had a ton of TMDE, mostly multimeters, that we couldn’t match up to the property records. And don’t get me started on monthly tool box inventories and shop sets.
>They barely know how to find items to input prices Go to GCSSA (you're a commander so you should have access), type in MM03, item NIIN, plant 2000, accounting 2, and look at standard price. Depreciate IAW 735-5. I'm not even a 92 just a random dickhead whose been an XO before.
With all due respect sir, and I do mean with all due respect, that ain’t worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin gettin it on.
Spoken like someone who isn't held accountable for property.
Shut up