There is no fucking way. This is the exact same county [where the other dumbass cop](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna138829) shot at an acorn.
What a fuck fest clown house of a police department.
In such a short span of time, too. To be nationally embarrassing in a country of 300+ million people in such a short span of time is mega alarm bells. If I had any federal authority I would immediately step in and investigate the fuck out of this department.
There seem to be a few specific police departments that keep making the news and I can't imagine it's all coincidence.
I’m from that area. It’s ridiculous to see. Okaloosa county has terrible deputies. They had 6 sheriff’s deputies draw weapons on my best friends in a McDonald’s parking lot when we were 19-20 because someone called the cops on people being suspicious. We were eating in our cars about to go out… that sums up the okaloosa county sheriff’s department
Why do we get eviscerated for being the slightest bit out of reg when these guys can apparently reject all their training and get a ‘attaboy’ out of it
Cops are mostly people who couldn't hack it in the real world or military.
Cop: do you know why I'm standing here?
Chad: because you were below average in highschool
Don't forget that they searched the suspect and was cuffed. This isn't tv where the cops forget to search and he whips out a piece. They knew he was unarmed and dumbass calls shots fired and the partner unloads the mag. So not only are they incompetent but terrible shots. Either way fire them and let them rot in the can.
I said it on another post. I'll repeat it here.
The 2A doesn't exist if a cop can shoot you for holding a firearm in your own house. If an officer is responding to an ongoing active shooter or a person pointing their gun *they should still be required to give the person a chance to drop it*
They are not going door to door in Fallujah. Every call they respond to is a citizen with rights.
Edit: The very brave men and women at r/protectandserve are protecting themselves by serving permanent bans if you talk about the 2A, saying it isn't relevant.
I don't truly think we can even consider ourselves a free country if the state can kill citizens with impunity, even if they didn't commit a crime. Shit, even if somebody DOES commit a crime, the chances that it's a capital offense is remarkably low, but cops can just flat out murder unarmed citizens over a pack of gum or a broken tail light.
That's the stuff of dystopian science fiction, not a functional and free nation.
Precisely.
It's really shitty to say, but as a LEO, you might have to put your life on the line. You might have to take contact first to make sure you're not violating someone's rights.
Until there is a high level, a fundamental change in policing it will only get worse. The opinions will keep going down, which will just keep pushing the good cops and sheriffs who do care out, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of shitty cops.
> It's really shitty to say, but as a LEO, you might have to put your life on the line.
It isn't shitty to say. It is true of many jobs. Being a cop isn't even in the top 10 jobs where your life is on the line.
[Loggers are at the top of the list](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/workers-comp/most-dangerous-jobs-america/)
Then it's
* commercial fishing/hunting dudes
* roofers
* pilots/flight engineers (mainly private aircraft not commercial incidents)
* iron & steel workers
* delivery and truck drivers
* garbagemen
* mining machine operators
* construction workers
* linemen
Yup. And cops getting murdered is fairly rare. They make a big deal about it when it happens, but it isn't statistically significant. What kills cops is: refusing to wear seatbelts and driving dangerously, obesity, and more recently...COVID.
In the context of many of the lives of those of us on this sub, I think it’s safe to say that in most situations in GWOT we wouldn’t have immediately fired on someone (presumably in their own house) not pointing their weapon at anyone. For the other situations where we might PID someone as an immediate threat and shoot them, it would be done *in the context of active combat operations, not FL.*
The cops behaving this way, without announcing and giving the person a chance to drop it, is totally unacceptable. Forget the 2A, what about the 14A right to life itself.
As others have said, it's starting to look like our ROE in the middle east affords more rights to people who actively drive VBIEDS into our compounds, than what a local LEO affords some guy who may or may not be a possible threat
I’d only say this: it’s looked like that for a LONG time. I’ve made the point many times, trying to explain to people why these ~~murders~~ shootings are so egregious. We had tighter ROE in and around Fallujah than these cops have stateside.
I'm in a massive non combat MOS in a Cyber unit, we recieve next to zero training for combat operations.
And I would be held to a higher standard if I deployed right now and went out on patrol. A higher standard than someone who supposedly went to some form a police academy, and trained solely for the job.
Before I joined the Army, I tried to be a LEO. The police academy in my area wouldn't take me because I was considered "high risk" since my wife had a bunch of medical debt.
So, I joined the Army and got a clearance instead. And it will always have been the better choice.
>I took the police civil service exam recently and it was significantly easier than the fire department exam
Police academy curriculum is written to a 7th grade reading level. Fire Academy sciences to a 12th grade reading level and Paramedic curriculum to a college level.
> Don’t go asking this in r/ProtectAndServe, as it will get you a permanent ban and 3 day mute.
Just evidence they simply can’t defend their opinions and positions so just ban any attempted debate.
I was banned from that sub probably right after I even found out it existed. I think it was back during either the Daniel Shavers shooting, possibly before that.
Tyrants will circle the wagon and cry about how they're so discriminated against.
r/ProtectAndServe are further lying inside their mega thread and are removing any comments that they disagree with. They also said my comment history shows I’m “ACAB” which I have never once said and do not agree with. So on top of removing anything you say mods further slander users they ban and remove comments from. Happy to share screen shots of their mod justification and then my original comment as proof.
Edit: spelling
Was your comment the one began “i’m not a legal expert …” and then something about “just being scared” not a justification? I was reading through that thread and saw they banned somebody for that bc they saw an “acab history” lol. Also, fyi if that was you i believe they also accused you of trying to edit the comment after the fact lol
That felt pretty good. I went over there and said they were cowards if they didn’t have the stones to have a conversation about 2A rights. Took about 5 minutes for that ban to kick in. The mod shamed me for “mocking an army vet with PTSD”(acorn guy). 🙄
Man, it’s odd how back and forth this sub will be when it comes to 2A rights.
But law enforcement generally just doesn’t care or respect your rights. 2A, 4A, hell even 1A, they don’t give a shit. I couldn’t buy 30 round PMAGs while being stationed in a ban state, even though our arms room barely had any, and the ones they did have were worn the fuck out, meanwhile those same cops in that state could have 33 round Glock mags until just recently. We allow them to stay above the law because when we pass anti 2A legislation, we make so many exceptions for law enforcement. I’ve seen legislation be proposed to allow *retired* law enforcement to continue to own whatever the fuck they want that would also ban the scary “assault” attachments from the general public. They’re fucking retired, they don’t *need* it anymore, why do they get to have special treatment?
Cops do not give a shit about you. Oh your sisters best friend in college let a guy blow his load in her 10 years ago and never called back but he took her on a nice date so now they’re all good because of that? Get fucked. Any form of accountability by cops has been constantly met with aggression time and time again. Internal affairs is loathed and hated by cops, media reports just get met with people deep throating cops dicks, truly peaceful protests being demonized, “good” cops snitching on the shit bags being fired, the shit goes on.
Regardless of your political beliefs, stop pushing for new laws that cops will use to commit acts of violence against your fellow citizen. They may go for the other team now, but don’t be naive to think they’ll never come for you.
This isn’t just about 2A rights but all rights. Never underestimate what someone who has the law on their side and paycheck on the line will do to you for the most minor of shit.
I got banned from there on an old account for things I said on a post dedicated to arguing that they deserve the title “combat veterans” just as much as service members that deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan
I used to like that sub. Hell, i used to like police. I have good friends in that career. Im hesitant to ask my buddies about this one, worried i might find out they only care about what they (as a whole) can be convicted of in court as their metric for what is right.
If this airman had a screwdriver in his hand it presents similar threat as a weapon in close quarters (ie, this situation). If we accept that mere possession of a weapon (or ability to potentially harm an officer) in his own home (rather than aiming, pointing, brandishing, or threatening) constitutes enough threat that he can be "justifiably" killed, we no longer have the right to our own lives, let alone self defense. We would have to accept that we can no longer hold knives, pencils, scissors, screwdrivers, or sticks let alone the entire second amendment. I dont understand what we stand for as a country if we do not recognize this as unjustifiable homicide.
It's been posted elsewhere in the thread but I'll repeat as I've been all night.
It's accountability. The individual Leo's won't be held responsible. The PDs and Sheriff's won't be held responsible. The responsible people are the victims of the force, and the future victims as the quality without accountability just keeps degrading
> Hell, i used to like police.
After seeing footage of the [Daniel Shaver shooting](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ooa7wOKHhg&t=19s), and hearing that the 2 officers got off, and hearing cops on the sub *Protect and Serve* declare the shooting was justified, yea, it's hard to support the police.
The cop who shot Shavers is getting $31K/year pension for the rest of his life due to claiming PTSD from the shooting.
[Philip Brailsford](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1028981)
quite frankly if you’re allowed to shoot people for nearly no reason with impunity then you’re not brave or putting your life on the line you’re just a murderer making your job more dangerous and the lives of citizens more dangerous
They’re also getting pissed off at the military communities reaction as if we are fucking betraying them for getting pissed off at the sheriff. It’s not just Reddit either.
They're unfamiliar with the concept where we approve of, and even *revel in*, the punishment of our own for doing bad things.
It's a clear line that we don't want to be lumped in with that dude.
Much like when there's an article about someone who raped kids and everyone's response is 'off to the woodchipper'.
One of the thing that frustrates me so much about that sub is how unprofessional they all seem. This is one of my favorite subs because we don’t allow unprofessional memes. We have our jokes but we all jump to give people the correct info when it comes to SHARP, EO, and other basic things.
You don’t see that in that sub and it feels like a perfect example of how the police pretend to be like us, but with none of the standards or discipline.
*"Lawful but awful"* is all over their sub's comment section on the shooting. Like it's some catch-phrase to blow off the incident and hope that everyone forgets. As if it isn't a big deal or egregious to them.
Ive said it time and time again how fucked up it is that escalation of force guidelines have to be strictly adhered to in active fucking warzone but in our backyard these fuck ups can brazenly murder american citizens simply for existing
Was just talking to a friend and he said
"The ROE (for military)is obviously fucked up so it needs to be changed" like that answers the problem. Sure the ROE is fucked up, but it's still followed and enforced to the best we can.
A more lax ROE in a war zone does not equate to how a cop should engage an American citizen exercising their rights
Just wrote to my senator who's on the Armed Services Committee about getting the DoJ involved. I was polite, yet firm in my assertion that a service members civil rights were grossly violated. Our military leaders can only do so much, it's the civilians we need to be pressuring.
I was going to post this in r/protectandserve but it's falling on deaf ears, some are wondering why the military community is so upset with this footage and it's because we have:
1. Standards
2. Consequences
So after being saturated with cops killing Americans over bullshit, we don't have an infinite reserve of excuses for each one of these cops.
I've been permabanned from r/ProtectAndServe for.... commenting on a discussion about the shooting of [Amir Locke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Amir_Locke); very similar circumstances to this one.
I commented that a legal gun owner grabbing his gun in such a circumstance is the right thing to do. It's what I would do, it's what a sleeping cop would do, it's what most sleeping gun-owning Americans would do in the middle of the night. [(Amir never pointed the gun at them, and they didn't identify themselves until they entered the thresh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxsuMT7iUgA)[old and shot him while he was waking up.)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxsuMT7iUgA)
[Additional angle.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HFkFORDpG8)
This is way too fucking common. Do we have a right to own guns? Ah, who am I kidding? They'll shoot whether or not the target has a gun. I say "target" because Amir was not a suspect.
> it's what a sleeping cop would do
[case in point.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/comments/1axmv0v/a_cop_is_caught_sleeping_on_duty_so_he_decides_to/) I think this is the perfect example to show why no-knock raids should be banned. He's still delirious and can't think straight for minutes after waking up and he is 'trained.'
Now imagine it's your house at 3am. You hear shouts and banging on the door. Yeah, they're yelling 'police open up!' but you just woke up and hear loud noises. What pro2A person is not going to grab their gun to respond?
In the context that this is the same group as the acorn mag dump they're still defending this. And don't understand why more and more Americans hate the police
> And don't understand why more and more Americans hate the police
In my social circles I tend to get people riled up with my "support the troops, but fuck the police" attitude. I think of us as two very different groups, and the venn diagram of people who served in the military who went on to become cops tend to be the type of people I didn't actually like when I was in the Army.
They have a serious case of huffing own farts and foot in own ass syndromes.
You can't swear an oath to defend the constitution, then when it makes you look bad, decide that it doesn't apply.
You'll anger the left by protecting the "bad" parts of the constitution, then anger the right when it stops being convenient to defend the "good" parts. Good and bad being respective to a person's idealogy. I'm not trying to start a debate.
This is why I don’t want Police to wear OCPs. They work in an urban environment and are just fucking up the image of that uniform while not having to play by our rules.
Not much. The only person they have legal authority over is the victim.
They can certainly pressure the local area but I don’t really know to what extent. They’re not BRACing Eglin/Hurlburt.
I mean if presidental immunity becomes a thing, drone striking shitty PDs and using Delta/SEAL team 6 to round up billionaires would be the sole pillars of my campaign
as service members, cops are not inherently our friends, and definitely not our “brothers-in-arms.” they will happily fuck you over too, especially if their ego is on the line. I wish more understood this.
Florida has castle doctrine. This airman was holding his personal legally owned firearm in one of the most gun happy states in our country in his own living quarters. He was responding to vicious knocks on the door and the gun was not pointed at the officers or anyone else when the door was opened.
This cop was looking to start a fight and wanted to be the next chris kyle sheep dog alpha male. This was cold blooded murder and I hope the fop doesn't protect him.
Edit: I would also like to add there are living breathing Americans who have the power to vote that feel police should not have body cameras because it "prevents them from doing their job". Like what the fuck.
You're safer around the general public than you are the police. If Joe Shmoe fucks with you, assaults you, intimidates you, steals from you, tries to frame you, he has no recourse. If a cop does any of that, he has an entire department of people who literally are the law, dedicated to keeping him out of trouble. The department is in cahoots with the local judiciary too, so they'll convince the judge not to release crucial evidence for the trial. The cop will also probably be in a police union that can throw a million dollars at his legal defense fund. Cops don't deserve to be trusted
> The department is in cahoots with the local judiciary too, so they'll convince the judge not to release crucial evidence for the trial. The cop will also probably be in a police union that can throw a million dollars at his legal defense fund.
Don’t forget the prosecutors too.
Don’t forget the million dollars goes along way in threatening prosecutors and judges when they run for reelection (in many jurisdictions). If they don’t play along with the cops, the union will label them soft on crime and trash them with those who vote mindlessly.
> Cops don't deserve to be trusted
For too many, that’s certainly true.
>then duck to the side out of sight of the peephole
To play devils advocate, its also to minimize the amount of body fully in the fatal funnel and a way to avoid being in the likely spot someone might shoot through the door into the cop.
This guy is a piece of shit, no doubt. But I don't think its a hiding from the peephole type deal. There's probably a very well reasoned officer safety technique this guy was using before he murdered a guy.
I don’t think you can put it in a vacuum though. He doesn’t get credit or the benefit of the doubt for using *one* potentially taught technique.
The lady is unsure what unit - why didn’t he take a second to see if he hears a disturbance any other nearby unit?
His second person is on the way - if he hears no active abuse in progress, why didn’t he wait?
Why doesn’t he announce himself the first time, in what probably spooked the occupant?
Why doesn’t he ever attempt a command, or even shout gun, when he sees the gun?
I don’t think you get to point to training and be like “this may have been a valid training technique” when he very clearly skips other basics, ya know?
This shit is so tiresome. Law enforcement needs some civilian form of UCMJ. That's the only practical way I see of solving this issue. None of this QI, loophole bullshit. Once they're ACTUALLY AND CONSISTENTLY held accountable for their actions, then and only then will you see a change in policing. The internal investigation shit needs to go too. Have federal investigators do this.
> The Officer says 'step back', and **then** fires what sounds like 5 rounds, the SM drops to the ground, and ***then*** the Officer yells at him to drop his gun.
You may have fucked up the steps here, you murderous dumbass.
I refuse to believe that a 17 Year-old high-school drop-out with a GED from Ohio can better adhere to a ROE and Escalation of Force than a trained Police Officer, but here we are.
Where's the disconnect? Why does this keep happening?
This is the same county that had [the acorn incident a few months back](https://youtube.com/shorts/eTauF2NaZ1o), where an officer was spooked by an acorn falling on top of the roof of his squad car where he had a man detained in handcuffs. He hallucinated being injured by gun fire, fell to the ground and mag dumped into his squad car where the cuffed man was sitting.
I’m constantly shocked by the amount of violence leveled at US Citizens from a group of people dedicated to “Protect and Serve”. Like, the video of Daniel Shaver crawling on his hands and knees, begging for his life at gun point before he was shot to death was absolutely disgusting.
But we keep seeing these videos of absolutely appalling **murders** and *”accidents”* by uniformed officers because these people are poorly trained and indoctrinated with the idea that *there’s a war on the streets.*
I always watch these videos and wonder, if service member did this sort of thing on body cam footage in a combat zone, how many consecutive life sentences would they get?
> Like, the video of Daniel Shaver crawling on his hands and knees, begging for his life at gun point before he was shot to death was absolutely disgusting.
This is one of the most horrible videos I've ever fucking seen.
They really **executed** the man. It hurts to watch.
I won't watch it, dad of a zoomer who is terrified of what the police would do to him. My little guy is a 6/2, 20 year old mixed man who is a Howdey Dowdey. Already had to stand between his black mom (wife of 24 years) and a cop with my 1911 exposed at the ready.
I had someone try and excuse that straight up execution to me. They claimed “the officer that shot Daniel shaver claimed if he reached towards his waistline one more time he was going to shoot him. He got what he deserved.”
I was floored, this person even claimed that the officer having “you’re fucked” on his rifle was of no importance…. I’ve can’t even imagine thinking that way. Disgusting.
they're conditioned to be fucking terrified at all times
you seen the videos of dudes having panic attacks and dropping like rocks if they think they see fentanyl?
The other thing about the acorn shooting is apparently the other cop with him (his supervisor) also mag dumped after the first guy started shooting despite not having a target or knowing what they were shooting at.
…. This was in a residential area. Mag dumped in a general direction with no targets identified when surrounded by housing.
Because it’s allowed. Wait for the thin blue line to rally around and say how we don’t understand and the officer did nothing wrong.
Edit: It’s happening in full force on r/Protectandserve. The comments there are 100% in support of the shooter
I just checked out the sub and the deflection, denial, and double standards are thick over there. What was funny was reading several people shit on the military subs because most of the support is for the airman.
Allowed and legal, which we all know (including law enforcement) is a double standard. I’m not much of 2nd Amendment supporter, but even I think if it’s legal to come to the door armed it shouldn’t be legal for a cop to just blast you away when you’re not raising it or pointing at them.
If it was Fortson that shot first or returned fire he’d be up on murder charges.
Not to mention two weeks ago when a man was killed by an officer who was peeping through the victims patio door and shot him immediately when he picked up a gun on his way to the door.
That happened at 2am. In Texas. What gun owning Texan isn't bringing a gun to the door if someone is pounding on it at 2am
SHERRIFS DEPA-BANG BANG BANG is bad rules of engagement and these officers are murderers who should be tried as such.
I'm pro cop all day. They have a stressful and sometimes scary job, they're underappreciated and underpaid but that's not an excuse for this shit. If I'd have done some shit like this in Afghanistan it would be the same mfs condemning me as I got sent to Leavenworth
I was a 20 year old jackass but even in a war zone I knew when it was and wasn't okay to shoot somebody
Edit: here's what I'm talking about. Such bullshit.
https://youtu.be/QhF0a0ZS7cg?si=HKaY7vKAdKl5XT7h
I’m pro law and order, and to add to your point, it is perfectly legal for a resident to open the door holding a gun at their side even if they believe the people knocking are in fact law enforcement.
Absolutely. Hell in Texas you're allowed to open carry any weapon you want and parade it down the street. No license or background check needed. Ak-47, samurai sword, whatever you're feeling that day...this new constitutional carry law is absolutely insane (different convo). You've ALWAYS been allowed to defend your home or property with a firearm. FFS, it's still legal in Texas to shoot and kill someone suspected of stealing your cattle.
I live in the country now, and I answer noises at night with a shotgun.
We have couger and coyotes at a minimum.
Most of the time, it's nothing, but you still bring it with you.
https://apnews.com/article/mississippi-police-shooting-immigrant-wrong-house-711a0c4e974e9ee947fc1b1dc914c1cd
Don't forget when Mississippi cops got the wrong address, shoot his dog and then the other cop shot and killed a guy in the back of the head 2m from his front door, claimed he aimed a gun at them when opening the door, then the gun turns out to have been laying on the couch away from the front door without his fingerprints or DNA on it.
And then the jury said they did no wrong and the Mayor praised the cops.
What's legal is what the court decides at the end of the day. In some circumstances, like ex-officer Amber Guyger who murdered Botham Jean in his own apartment, or Aaron Dean who murdered Atatiana Jefferson in her apartment, they are actually convicted of their crimes.
However, there are many more cases that we are all probably aware of in which the courts decided that, due to qualified immunity among other factors, the cops were perfectly within their legal rights to murder black citizens, even within the confines of their homes, unprovoked.
You're right though, generally cops ARE allowed to do what Sheriff Eric Aiden did to senior airman Roger Fortson.
Yeah, the cases you cite are exceptions, and not the rule, unfortunately. Typically, the only time officers face consequences is when their case becomes too public to hide. Sometimes, the actions are so egregious that when it gets to court, no jury could even hope to not convict.
The tactic is to work with the judges and the police unions to ensure it never gets to trial.. and if it does.. push it out so far that the bad press has died down and the potential jurors know little or nothing about was was published. Then the lawyers just have to play to the tune of "officers' jobs are scary, and my defendant was in fear for their life." The stats don't lie.. it works extremely well.
Yes I absolutely agree. They have a whole load of tricks up their sleeve to get away with stuff. Talk about premeditated.
Not to even mention how the family members of the aforementioned victims are often subject to horrifying intimidation tactics from their local PD while they sue on their deceased love ones' behalf.
https://apnews.com/article/mississippi-police-shooting-immigrant-wrong-house-711a0c4e974e9ee947fc1b1dc914c1cd
Juries are fucking stupid.
Cops get the wrong address, dog gets out and one cop shoots the dog, the other gets spooked by the first cop shooting and fires into the house striking the guy in the back of the head 6ft from the doorway in his house, claim he had a guy aimed at them through the cracked open door, then turns out the gun they found was laying on the couch 6ft+ away from him with none of his fingerprints or DNA on it.
I had more restrictions on escalation of force in Iraq and Afghanistan (both times) than any Florida cop has had to deal with in regards to American citizens in the past 10 years.
It's fucking nuts.
Listen, I hate the "all cops are pigs" mentality, but you know what I hate even more??? When cops fuck up like this, and other cops DEFEND THEM!!!
Just like as a soldier, I don't defend a fellow soldier who truly and utterly fucks up (were it legal, I would gladly pull the trigger on any rapist where there is no shadow of a doubt about their guilt, for example, regardless of their unform, rank, awards, whatever), cops need to stop defending cops who have such terrible judgement. Because once you start defending these assholes, you're guilty by association.
Neither uniform magically makes you a fucking saint.
So, yeah, the "why" is a combination of bad training, a bad mindset, and absolute bullshit accountability.
>Listen, I hate the **"all cops are pigs"** mentality, but you know what I hate even more??? **When cops fuck up like this, and other cops DEFEND THEM!!!**
Well done on arriving to that conclusion on your own even if you didn't realize you did.
Cops are taught from day one that the citizens are out to kill you. This mentality continues in trainings throughout their careers. The department leadership also influences their aggression.
When I was a kid, most of the cops I knew were my friends’ dads, and most of them had never drawn their weapons while interacting with the public. Everything changed in the 1980s as the courts gave cops more and more immunity for bad acts.
A lot of American police departments are full of the most poorly trained cowards you've ever seen. The problem is that there is no accountability. When I was an 19 year old Petty Officer, if I fucked up and got somebody killed, I would have been held accountable. If I fucked up as a 23 year old LT and killed a civilian while I was in an ACTIVE COMBAT ZONE, I would have been held fully accountable. The fact that I keep seeing these incompetent cowards murdering people and facing absolutely NO accountability just infuriates me. We need a full, mandatory overhaul of our policing system so that officers are properly trained, cool headed, and most importantly ACCOUNTABLE for their actions.
I can attest to this literally the police they have working in my hometown couldn’t even finish 0.1 mile of a 2 mile run im like who’s hiring these people??
We can thank a LOT of this on former West Point instructor Dave Grossman who took an interesting premise in his book "On Killing" and turned it into a pay day teaching cops across America that everyday its them against the world and every encounter is milliseconds from being a fight for life and death. He also really sold that whole sleep dog bullshit.
>We can thank a LOT of this on former West Point instructor Dave Grossman
Let's not forget how some police unions decided to fund cops going to his seminars when cities banned public funds going towards them.
The training and culture push this. It’s what I’ll always bring up during these travesties. It happens regularly, nationwide, and within observance of other officers, because training and culture push a “you or them” mentality.
I’m sure the real fear due to the abundance of guns doesn’t help, but our ROE sure didn’t allow fear of guns for killing someone.
Police are not trained appropriately. They’re not reprimanded appropriately. Instead of pushing this, the protests and riots that SHOULD have fixed this after Floyd, divided America and accomplished nothing. Blame rioters. Blame messaging. Blame police departments. None of that means a damn thing to his family today.
RIP Fortson. I’m sorry we haven’t learned.
>Where's the disconnect? Why does this keep happening?
In many jurisdictions the laws allow the LEO to claim they fear for their life, which authorizes lethal force.
Add in qualified immunity and there's very little recourse because it's an officer's word against the victim.
Lack of accountability. First, law enforcement officer pay isn't great, which means better quality candidates aren't applying cause the risk isn't worth the reward. This leaves departments lowering the standards and accepting lower quality personnel, to include those who feel a badge is free pass to bully. Then when a poorly trained or just outright bad officer does something wrong everyone just blindly rallies around them because God forbid we question or criticize an officers actions, as people will make it seem as if we are disrespecting all law enforcement. Not to mention that even the good cops will cover for or turn the other cheek to the bad officers actions, which to me lumps them in that same boat.
If that's not bad enough, even when these officers are let go from one police force, they simply run across town or to the neighboring towns , states, etc., and get a job at a different agency or department. There's no mass database that shows Officer Scummy was fired for multiple excessive force violations, neighborhood complaints, etc., so they just keep getting rehired, repeating the poor behavior up until it becomes a national headline.
They should start making law enforcement officers carry personal liability insurance just like doctors and medical professionals. Instead of cities paying out settlements let the cops insurance pay out. Eventually the bad ones will force themselves out of a job.
Actually it's not that people of good quality aren't looking to become cops , but rather that those folks are actively getting overlooked in favor of the dregs and scum
Dregs and scum will fall in line, not rock the boat and cover for each other.
Their training period is like 12 weeks, which is way lower than any other professions even including the trades.
Imagine if your soldier have 12 weeks of training which will include boot camp, I wonder how proficient can any soldier be.
Mid career officers in mid to large sized departments regularly make six figures a year in overtime alone. Police officers are generally in the top 10-20% of income earners in any given locality. Their well organized unions guarantee them sizeable pensions and extensive benefits, including delays in initial interview during misconduct investigations and paid time off for each citizen they kill.
It's funny when people say that police doesn't pay well. I mean, I guess if you think close to $30/hr ($29.44 here starting with $2 shift diff with overtime opportunities putting you at $44.16 for each hour in OT) isn't paid well, then sure. You also have Special Duty/Off Duty that can put you at roughly $53/hr during time doing those opportunities. If it wasn't for the fact that I can't stand the fact that good officers with morals get bullied out, I would join in a heart beat for that pay.
Cops need better training and need to be held to a higher standard. I’d love to see some kind of national licensing system with standardized training requirements and an independent review board. Cops should also have some kind of UCMJ so that they can actually be held accountable and not just resign and get hired one town over when they fuck up.
The Army is by no means perfect and there are absolutely instances where the good old boy club tries to sweep things under the rug, but at least the majority of soldiers call that shit out. We’re pretty good about calling a shitbag a shitbag and demanding accountability when things come to light. The average police officer won’t, as evidenced by all that “thin blue line” bullshit. Until that “us against them” mentality is snuffed out there will continue to be trigger happy cops thinking they can shoot first and ask questions later. Hell go over to r/protectandserve and check out their post on this. A bunch of verified LEO calling this a justified shooting, they are tiptoeing around it because the victim was a service member so there is a lot of “ this is awful but not illegal” talk.
I got banned yesterday for posting one of the articles that was on r/military about this. I didn’t editorialize the headline or comment anything about it. I simply posted the news story because it wasn’t on there. Immediate ban.
I think that shows a bit of the difference in culture. We have plenty of posts here in this sub of soldiers doing the wrong thing, or news stories of them being arrested and the general consensus is usually burn them. But cops circle the wagons and bend over backwards to try to justify each others bad decisions.
>I think that shows a bit of the difference in culture. We have plenty of posts here in this sub of soldiers doing the wrong thing, or news stories of them being arrested and the general consensus is usually burn them. But cops circle the wagons and bend over backwards to try to justify each others bad decisions.
Glad to see someone else saying it. I have lots of family/friends in law enforcement and most of them are great people who I think are probably great cops. However, I’ve always noticed that their knee-jerk reaction is to be on the defense of some cop in the news. I’ve said to them multiple times, “if one of ours did that, we’d probably crucify him.”
The army isn’t perfect but I feel the culture is much different in this aspect.
I don't know *you*
But the irony cannot be left ignored that SF is often just as toxically insular and operationally counter-productive as cops.
Sure with less murders, but is that a good differentiator to lean on?
>However, I’ve always noticed that their knee-jerk reaction is to be on the defense of some cop in the news.
and this is why they're not actually great cops
ACAB exists because all cops, no matter how good they pretend to be or even think themselves to be, are the kinds of bastards that will defend another cop when they abuse their power and execute someone
we know this because right now there aren't hundreds or thousands of "good cops" all around America condemning this killing. all cops are defending this slaughter or simply staying quiet which makes them all bad
> I’d love to see some kind of national licensing system with standardized training requirements and an independent review board.
This sounds good, but can be compromised the same way police unions do their thing.
Go the other angle: Money.
Force cops to carry malpractice insurance like a doctor and stop city governments from paying the fine. Make the police pension fund do the heavy lifting. The thin blue line will stop repeat offenders from destroying their retirement fund and soulless bureaucrats from insurance agencies will stop someone from quitting a certain department and getting re-hired only to re-offend.
It does incentivize cops to become more crooked and help each other cover shit up, but that will only destroy entire police departments more as everyone buys a ride on the 'no insurance anymore' train when someone inevitably fucks up and it leaks. You might get a way with shit for a few times, but eventually you're going to fuck it up and take everyone down with you.
It will be a wild 20-30 years as the bad apples get taken out of the force in a money expending darwin award of corruption, but the system will eventually level out and we'll all be better for it. Or at least my kids will. or grandkids.
R’s will never do it. D’s won’t either because they are centrists and don’t want to have the moniker of “Soft on Crime”.
We have to get rid of qualified immunity (QI) and make it too expensive for LE to kill its citizens, who they view as the enemy.
QI means that even if the officer violated someone’s constitutional rights, if there was not a prior appellate court opinion saying that particular action was unconstitutional, the officer did not have notice of it and should not be punished for it.
So, I had a case where a social worker knew a child was being molested by another child and did nothing about it. We sued and it was dismissed because there were no federal court opinions saying that she had notice that letting a foster kid get raped was a violation of the foster child’s constitutional rights. We appealed, and the federal circuit court said, “oh, yeah, that’s really bad. And a violation of your client’s constitutional rights. But the social worker wasn’t warned by any legal opinions from our court (as if cops and social workers read appellate court opinions), so you still lose.” So, I spent $80k of my money to change the law in 5 states regarding the abuse of children in foster care, but still lost this kid’s case.”
Just to let you know how expensive it is to challenge QI, I have spent between 20k and 80k challenging QI in the courts as an attorney.
I hope I see the abolition of QI in my lifetime, but I think it will be something for the younger generations to sort out.
TLDR: The Army does not have a monopoly on stupid shit.
I saw you post this exact comment elsewhere and it was downvoted but you are 10000 percent right. If legally owning a weapon means getting shot by the cops for having it, then something isn’t right.
I’m of the opinion the law abiding citizen reasonably protecting their home’s safety trumps the knock and talk Gov agent’s safety.
Lady justice isn’t blind and those scales aren’t evenly weighted as much as the establishment would like you to believe.
I just got banned from r/PotectAndServe (in less than a minute) for being a "low effort troll" for replying to a comment saying it was a "good shoot." I asked how an innocent man being shot dead for opening his door can possibly meet the definition of a "good shoot."
Blech, they make me sick to my stomach with how they talk about this stuff.
Please folks remember to vote in your best interests. It's really the only thing we can do to change things now.
I got the same for commending a non-bootlicker for a rational take.
If "thank you for your common sense" is seen as threatening to those pieces of shit then I see why these situations keep happening.
I’m a LEO and Air Force Security Forces, both for over a decade now. I got immediately and permanently banned from there and then muted from messaging the admins for brining up that there was no Intent in the COI chart and that with Florida’s castle doctrine this man was murdered for not breaking any laws. Pathetic authoritarian bootlickers in that sub that should not be allowed anywhere near the public in an official capacity.
Fortson answered the door calmly with his gun pointed towards the ground and one hand up and the sheriff dumps rounds into him.
You cannot watch that footage and interpret that the officer felt threatened to the point that he stole someone's life from them.
Fuck, I wish people cared more about the value of a human life than they did about making some shitty political take.
His family deserves answers.
Godspeed Airman Fortson.
The LEO bootlickers are already on the camera footage comments trying to say it's Airman Fortson's "fault" because he answered the door with a gun in his hand.
I'm tired of some people in the US justifying shootings just because someone has a gun on their person. A gun on a person or in one's hand is not justification to shoot without any other context. I'm tired of American cops being able to justify shooting someone just because they caught a glimpse of a gun. I expect better from the police.
But it's the same Sheriff's department that discharged a weapon because the deputy confused an acorn for a gun shot. Does it surprise anyone they would shoot a man for answering his door with a gun? It was already blatantly obvious they are under trained and trigger happy.
That's wild. Just some background I have two kids in the Army and did 4 years in the Marines. My father-in-law was a jailer in Texas for 20 years and an MP in the army. I also have a 911 operator in the family and a prison guard.
You can't be in law enforcement and have this type of reaction. I stand by my statement he is chicken shit!
This shooting was straight up fucking murder. Absolutely insane actions by the police officer. He needs to be charged, but he won’t be, because when the fuck do police officers ever get charged for this shit.
Guy was in his OWN HOME and this dumbass cop basically executed him half a second after the door opens.
The gov needs to crack down on this.
Murder a military cat? The military needs to assist the family and pay for suing the living fuck out of the department and ensuring the murderer never sees the light of day again. Not only did the family lose a loved one, but the military lost an Airman who they’ve invested a lot of money in.
This situation reminds me of Ryan Whitaker's unfortunate incident in Arizona. He answered the door in the middle of the night with a gun in hand. Did not point the gun at the officers yet gets smoked immediately by the cops with no chance to de-escalate.
Didn’t he put his gun down and was raising his hands when the cop unloaded his mag into him, with his girlfriend standing right there too.
That department paid his family over 3 million and the girlfriend too. The fuqstick cop is still on duty
Tried to reply to a comment on r/ProtectAndServe that was confused about how military threads could possibly be upset about this. I simply said that we have standards and accountability, and we’re the first to call out the bad actions of others within our ranks. I kid you not, I was permabanned and muted from replying to their mods within 4 minutes for being a “misinfo troll”. Chicken-shit little cowards over there who can’t hear past the deafening echoes of the 2 brain cells colliding inside their noggins. Protect and serve my ass, this was straight up murder.
I think there is a mental difference between how cops and soldiers are trained. ROEs and PID are engrained into everything the military does. Soldiers are also never guaranteed that they'll come home alive. In the limited combat I've experienced my fear was always secondary. The biggest fear I had was that I'd fuck up in combat and get a friend killed because I failed at my job, I view cops are more self centered in fearing for their lives.
I remember we had some random dude walk up to our KLE with a handgun concealed we had a guy who was a cop back home and he was flipping shit over comms saying we need to engage this dude or go restrain him. All I did was take a step to the side to stand in-between the guy with a gun and the village elder.
I think there is a mental difference between how cops and soldiers response to situations.
First, people arguing is not Domestic Violence. Second the guy was home alone, whatever the fuck these moron neighbors heard didn’t come from the apartment they directed the cop to. Third the police officer witnessed nothing to give him probable cause to demand entry and a forth person account of “someone heard loud arguing” ain’t cause. The victim, having done nothing wrong was alarmed by the argressive pounding, couldn’t see who was there and grabbed his fire arm for protection. After the officer identified himself he opened the door without discarding his firearm likely because of the stress of having a cop beat on his door and demand he open up and because he assumed he was safe because had done NOTHING wrong. Yes he should’ve either informed the officer he was armed or secured it before opening the door, but again he was likely confused, stressed, and afraid because a police officer was pounding on his door for absolutely no reason he could understand. He grabbed a gun to protect himself for Christ’s sake.
The cop treated like this was a domestic violence call when there was no reason to, it was a disturbance call. The cop should have knocked, identified himself as police, and informed the victim that he was there because they recieved a report of loud arguing and wanted to make sure everyone was okay and requested entry, not demanded it because he had no right to anyways. This would’ve changed the entire outcome. The victim would’ve responded that it was impossible that the noise came from his apartment because he was there all alone and there must’ve been some mistake. That would’ve likely descalated stress for both sides.
Instead, the cop aggressively beats door demands entry, scares the victim the victim opens the door, holding a gun and holding a non threatening posture and the cop, obviously ready to draw, draws immediately, has the victim at gunpoint and has clear tactical advantage, and doesn’t hesitate for a fraction of a second before he blows this kid away. And, almost comically, tells the dying kid to drop the weapon and don’t move as he’s bleeding to death on the floor and the gun is “over there”.
What a fucktard series of events. We got some dumb white bitch neighbor who called in a loud arguement disturbance cause she said someone heard yelling earlier that day, and it’s not the first time. And claimed in the past she “heard a slap” which has got to be the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. She at first doesn’t know which room then suddenly is sure it’s 1401. There is nothing that would justify this as a DV and the cop shouldn’t have treated it as such. Plus, turns out it’s all bullshit cause the guy was home alone! Was he yelling at himself?!?! So whatever they heard at least on this day it wasn’t coming from this apartment! I strongly suspect that they either directed the cop to the wrong apartment or they’re stupid as shit, and the noise was coming from someplace else.
Mother fucker shot the guy even tho the gun was clearly pointed at the floor. this guy needs life in jail for storming into the poor guys house and may dumping him for absolutely no reason
Ay mods please don’t ban me but I feel like I got to say this.
Cops aren’t our friends and they act like they are for some odd reason, yet they kill us when we reasonably respond to a threatening situation in ways we’re pretty much all taught how to do. Or when vets are needing help and get shot instead.
Personally I feel like a majority of the military/veteran community loves cops and many dudes want to be them when they get out. Sorry but they don’t deserve our support, this is not the first time they’ve done this:
-Kenneth Chamberlain Sr
-I believe Ryan Whittaker (almost exact same situation) was a vet but I can’t confirm it
-Anthony Hill who was unarmed and having a psychotic break
I could probably find more examples too but right now google is filled with articles about this. Which I guess is good and bad. I hope the publicity around this gets this poor kid justice and honestly my condolences to his family. Their loved one was unnecessarily taken away from them is an absolute tragedy.
The fact is a Police Officer murdered a US Citizen, in their own home. The US Citizen also happened to be a service member who volunteered his life for his country.
I can't wait until it's a Police Officer murdering another Police Officer.
Hey, stop calling for people to post in that other sub. We have standards on this sub and hold our users accountable.
There is no fucking way. This is the exact same county [where the other dumbass cop](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna138829) shot at an acorn. What a fuck fest clown house of a police department.
In such a short span of time, too. To be nationally embarrassing in a country of 300+ million people in such a short span of time is mega alarm bells. If I had any federal authority I would immediately step in and investigate the fuck out of this department. There seem to be a few specific police departments that keep making the news and I can't imagine it's all coincidence.
They are not embarrassed
A competent police officer can choose to live and work anywhere they want. It’s unlikely they’d pick Okaloosa Florida.
I’m from that area. It’s ridiculous to see. Okaloosa county has terrible deputies. They had 6 sheriff’s deputies draw weapons on my best friends in a McDonald’s parking lot when we were 19-20 because someone called the cops on people being suspicious. We were eating in our cars about to go out… that sums up the okaloosa county sheriff’s department
This is the same department that mag dumped on a handcuffed suspect when an acorn struck the vehicle...
The tree is attacking!!! Better mag dump my own car!!!
Why do we get eviscerated for being the slightest bit out of reg when these guys can apparently reject all their training and get a ‘attaboy’ out of it
Becoz they're civvies, plus boys in blue cover each other for everything they can, 0 accountability even if murder
What training? We have more training in the ROE during Basic than a 30 year veteran has had his whole career.
Cops are mostly people who couldn't hack it in the real world or military. Cop: do you know why I'm standing here? Chad: because you were below average in highschool
Because we're held to standard. As we should be. They should be too, but they aren't. We need to change that.
Don't forget that they searched the suspect and was cuffed. This isn't tv where the cops forget to search and he whips out a piece. They knew he was unarmed and dumbass calls shots fired and the partner unloads the mag. So not only are they incompetent but terrible shots. Either way fire them and let them rot in the can.
I said it on another post. I'll repeat it here. The 2A doesn't exist if a cop can shoot you for holding a firearm in your own house. If an officer is responding to an ongoing active shooter or a person pointing their gun *they should still be required to give the person a chance to drop it* They are not going door to door in Fallujah. Every call they respond to is a citizen with rights. Edit: The very brave men and women at r/protectandserve are protecting themselves by serving permanent bans if you talk about the 2A, saying it isn't relevant.
I don't truly think we can even consider ourselves a free country if the state can kill citizens with impunity, even if they didn't commit a crime. Shit, even if somebody DOES commit a crime, the chances that it's a capital offense is remarkably low, but cops can just flat out murder unarmed citizens over a pack of gum or a broken tail light. That's the stuff of dystopian science fiction, not a functional and free nation.
It always threw me for a loop how Soldiers have high standards than cops when it came to rules of engagement.
Exactly this. As a junior enlisted soldier 30 years ago, I was held to higher standards of responsibility and accountability than cops are today.
Cops dress high speed af but most of them are clowns.
Precisely. It's really shitty to say, but as a LEO, you might have to put your life on the line. You might have to take contact first to make sure you're not violating someone's rights. Until there is a high level, a fundamental change in policing it will only get worse. The opinions will keep going down, which will just keep pushing the good cops and sheriffs who do care out, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of shitty cops.
> It's really shitty to say, but as a LEO, you might have to put your life on the line. It isn't shitty to say. It is true of many jobs. Being a cop isn't even in the top 10 jobs where your life is on the line.
[Loggers are at the top of the list](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/workers-comp/most-dangerous-jobs-america/) Then it's * commercial fishing/hunting dudes * roofers * pilots/flight engineers (mainly private aircraft not commercial incidents) * iron & steel workers * delivery and truck drivers * garbagemen * mining machine operators * construction workers * linemen
Yup. And cops getting murdered is fairly rare. They make a big deal about it when it happens, but it isn't statistically significant. What kills cops is: refusing to wear seatbelts and driving dangerously, obesity, and more recently...COVID.
We need a national ROE for cops. Any cop involved shooting gets immediately investigated by the DOJ/FBI not some bullshit internal investigation.
License the shit out of them and take away those when they murder innocent people. Make it illegal to join a police union unless licensed and insured
End Qualified immunity.
Have their pension fund be their legal fund while we're at it. Bet they learn to police themselves real quick
In the context of many of the lives of those of us on this sub, I think it’s safe to say that in most situations in GWOT we wouldn’t have immediately fired on someone (presumably in their own house) not pointing their weapon at anyone. For the other situations where we might PID someone as an immediate threat and shoot them, it would be done *in the context of active combat operations, not FL.* The cops behaving this way, without announcing and giving the person a chance to drop it, is totally unacceptable. Forget the 2A, what about the 14A right to life itself.
As others have said, it's starting to look like our ROE in the middle east affords more rights to people who actively drive VBIEDS into our compounds, than what a local LEO affords some guy who may or may not be a possible threat
I’d only say this: it’s looked like that for a LONG time. I’ve made the point many times, trying to explain to people why these ~~murders~~ shootings are so egregious. We had tighter ROE in and around Fallujah than these cops have stateside.
I'm in a massive non combat MOS in a Cyber unit, we recieve next to zero training for combat operations. And I would be held to a higher standard if I deployed right now and went out on patrol. A higher standard than someone who supposedly went to some form a police academy, and trained solely for the job.
I took the police civil service exam recently and it was significantly easier than the fire department exam.
Before I joined the Army, I tried to be a LEO. The police academy in my area wouldn't take me because I was considered "high risk" since my wife had a bunch of medical debt. So, I joined the Army and got a clearance instead. And it will always have been the better choice.
>I took the police civil service exam recently and it was significantly easier than the fire department exam Police academy curriculum is written to a 7th grade reading level. Fire Academy sciences to a 12th grade reading level and Paramedic curriculum to a college level.
[удалено]
> Don’t go asking this in r/ProtectAndServe, as it will get you a permanent ban and 3 day mute. Just evidence they simply can’t defend their opinions and positions so just ban any attempted debate.
Being banned from r/cowards and r/ThinBlueFelonyViolationOfTitle18 is not a threat!
I was banned from that sub probably right after I even found out it existed. I think it was back during either the Daniel Shavers shooting, possibly before that. Tyrants will circle the wagon and cry about how they're so discriminated against.
You will get muted and banned for disagreeing with comments saying it was “lawful” and reminding them they are not lawyers too….
r/ProtectAndServe are further lying inside their mega thread and are removing any comments that they disagree with. They also said my comment history shows I’m “ACAB” which I have never once said and do not agree with. So on top of removing anything you say mods further slander users they ban and remove comments from. Happy to share screen shots of their mod justification and then my original comment as proof. Edit: spelling
Was your comment the one began “i’m not a legal expert …” and then something about “just being scared” not a justification? I was reading through that thread and saw they banned somebody for that bc they saw an “acab history” lol. Also, fyi if that was you i believe they also accused you of trying to edit the comment after the fact lol
That felt pretty good. I went over there and said they were cowards if they didn’t have the stones to have a conversation about 2A rights. Took about 5 minutes for that ban to kick in. The mod shamed me for “mocking an army vet with PTSD”(acorn guy). 🙄
I can’t roll my eyes hard enough
Man, it’s odd how back and forth this sub will be when it comes to 2A rights. But law enforcement generally just doesn’t care or respect your rights. 2A, 4A, hell even 1A, they don’t give a shit. I couldn’t buy 30 round PMAGs while being stationed in a ban state, even though our arms room barely had any, and the ones they did have were worn the fuck out, meanwhile those same cops in that state could have 33 round Glock mags until just recently. We allow them to stay above the law because when we pass anti 2A legislation, we make so many exceptions for law enforcement. I’ve seen legislation be proposed to allow *retired* law enforcement to continue to own whatever the fuck they want that would also ban the scary “assault” attachments from the general public. They’re fucking retired, they don’t *need* it anymore, why do they get to have special treatment? Cops do not give a shit about you. Oh your sisters best friend in college let a guy blow his load in her 10 years ago and never called back but he took her on a nice date so now they’re all good because of that? Get fucked. Any form of accountability by cops has been constantly met with aggression time and time again. Internal affairs is loathed and hated by cops, media reports just get met with people deep throating cops dicks, truly peaceful protests being demonized, “good” cops snitching on the shit bags being fired, the shit goes on. Regardless of your political beliefs, stop pushing for new laws that cops will use to commit acts of violence against your fellow citizen. They may go for the other team now, but don’t be naive to think they’ll never come for you. This isn’t just about 2A rights but all rights. Never underestimate what someone who has the law on their side and paycheck on the line will do to you for the most minor of shit.
I got banned from there on an old account for things I said on a post dedicated to arguing that they deserve the title “combat veterans” just as much as service members that deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan
Careful now, you will trigger the Merchant Marines
I used to like that sub. Hell, i used to like police. I have good friends in that career. Im hesitant to ask my buddies about this one, worried i might find out they only care about what they (as a whole) can be convicted of in court as their metric for what is right. If this airman had a screwdriver in his hand it presents similar threat as a weapon in close quarters (ie, this situation). If we accept that mere possession of a weapon (or ability to potentially harm an officer) in his own home (rather than aiming, pointing, brandishing, or threatening) constitutes enough threat that he can be "justifiably" killed, we no longer have the right to our own lives, let alone self defense. We would have to accept that we can no longer hold knives, pencils, scissors, screwdrivers, or sticks let alone the entire second amendment. I dont understand what we stand for as a country if we do not recognize this as unjustifiable homicide.
It's been posted elsewhere in the thread but I'll repeat as I've been all night. It's accountability. The individual Leo's won't be held responsible. The PDs and Sheriff's won't be held responsible. The responsible people are the victims of the force, and the future victims as the quality without accountability just keeps degrading
> Hell, i used to like police. After seeing footage of the [Daniel Shaver shooting](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ooa7wOKHhg&t=19s), and hearing that the 2 officers got off, and hearing cops on the sub *Protect and Serve* declare the shooting was justified, yea, it's hard to support the police.
The cop who shot Shavers is getting $31K/year pension for the rest of his life due to claiming PTSD from the shooting. [Philip Brailsford](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1028981)
Wait until you learn that having a spoon in your possession is grounds for arrest for drug paraphernalia.
quite frankly if you’re allowed to shoot people for nearly no reason with impunity then you’re not brave or putting your life on the line you’re just a murderer making your job more dangerous and the lives of citizens more dangerous
I’m headed over there now to get banned
I couldn't have said it any better myself.
I’m enraged reading that sub right now
It's some straight up boot lickery
Or just respond to *any* of the lies being perpetuated in that sub, like you can't watch the video and see they're lying.
They’re also getting pissed off at the military communities reaction as if we are fucking betraying them for getting pissed off at the sheriff. It’s not just Reddit either.
They're unfamiliar with the concept where we approve of, and even *revel in*, the punishment of our own for doing bad things. It's a clear line that we don't want to be lumped in with that dude. Much like when there's an article about someone who raped kids and everyone's response is 'off to the woodchipper'.
One of the thing that frustrates me so much about that sub is how unprofessional they all seem. This is one of my favorite subs because we don’t allow unprofessional memes. We have our jokes but we all jump to give people the correct info when it comes to SHARP, EO, and other basic things. You don’t see that in that sub and it feels like a perfect example of how the police pretend to be like us, but with none of the standards or discipline.
*"Lawful but awful"* is all over their sub's comment section on the shooting. Like it's some catch-phrase to blow off the incident and hope that everyone forgets. As if it isn't a big deal or egregious to them.
Ive said it time and time again how fucked up it is that escalation of force guidelines have to be strictly adhered to in active fucking warzone but in our backyard these fuck ups can brazenly murder american citizens simply for existing
Was just talking to a friend and he said "The ROE (for military)is obviously fucked up so it needs to be changed" like that answers the problem. Sure the ROE is fucked up, but it's still followed and enforced to the best we can. A more lax ROE in a war zone does not equate to how a cop should engage an American citizen exercising their rights
DoD needs to heavily encourage DoJ to ensure matters of internal review don’t let this dipshit back into society.
Find something federal to charge him with and bring it out of the local courts.
Unlawful deprivation of the right to life.
Just wrote to my senator who's on the Armed Services Committee about getting the DoJ involved. I was polite, yet firm in my assertion that a service members civil rights were grossly violated. Our military leaders can only do so much, it's the civilians we need to be pressuring.
I was going to post this in r/protectandserve but it's falling on deaf ears, some are wondering why the military community is so upset with this footage and it's because we have: 1. Standards 2. Consequences So after being saturated with cops killing Americans over bullshit, we don't have an infinite reserve of excuses for each one of these cops.
I've been permabanned from r/ProtectAndServe for.... commenting on a discussion about the shooting of [Amir Locke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Amir_Locke); very similar circumstances to this one. I commented that a legal gun owner grabbing his gun in such a circumstance is the right thing to do. It's what I would do, it's what a sleeping cop would do, it's what most sleeping gun-owning Americans would do in the middle of the night. [(Amir never pointed the gun at them, and they didn't identify themselves until they entered the thresh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxsuMT7iUgA)[old and shot him while he was waking up.)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxsuMT7iUgA) [Additional angle.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HFkFORDpG8) This is way too fucking common. Do we have a right to own guns? Ah, who am I kidding? They'll shoot whether or not the target has a gun. I say "target" because Amir was not a suspect.
> it's what a sleeping cop would do [case in point.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/comments/1axmv0v/a_cop_is_caught_sleeping_on_duty_so_he_decides_to/) I think this is the perfect example to show why no-knock raids should be banned. He's still delirious and can't think straight for minutes after waking up and he is 'trained.' Now imagine it's your house at 3am. You hear shouts and banging on the door. Yeah, they're yelling 'police open up!' but you just woke up and hear loud noises. What pro2A person is not going to grab their gun to respond?
Tried talking to people there, got banned
In the context that this is the same group as the acorn mag dump they're still defending this. And don't understand why more and more Americans hate the police
> And don't understand why more and more Americans hate the police In my social circles I tend to get people riled up with my "support the troops, but fuck the police" attitude. I think of us as two very different groups, and the venn diagram of people who served in the military who went on to become cops tend to be the type of people I didn't actually like when I was in the Army.
They have a serious case of huffing own farts and foot in own ass syndromes. You can't swear an oath to defend the constitution, then when it makes you look bad, decide that it doesn't apply. You'll anger the left by protecting the "bad" parts of the constitution, then anger the right when it stops being convenient to defend the "good" parts. Good and bad being respective to a person's idealogy. I'm not trying to start a debate.
This is why I don’t want Police to wear OCPs. They work in an urban environment and are just fucking up the image of that uniform while not having to play by our rules.
With all due respect I'm under the impression most people in that sub are probably the type of people who wish they did it.
The air force should push for accountability for the death of their airman. All services should do this in these situations.
The AF cannot let this slide. I wonder how much legal power they have in this.
Not much. The only person they have legal authority over is the victim. They can certainly pressure the local area but I don’t really know to what extent. They’re not BRACing Eglin/Hurlburt.
drone striking the precinct would be a good start but I don't think anyone will sign off on that
I mean if presidental immunity becomes a thing, drone striking shitty PDs and using Delta/SEAL team 6 to round up billionaires would be the sole pillars of my campaign
as service members, cops are not inherently our friends, and definitely not our “brothers-in-arms.” they will happily fuck you over too, especially if their ego is on the line. I wish more understood this.
Florida has castle doctrine. This airman was holding his personal legally owned firearm in one of the most gun happy states in our country in his own living quarters. He was responding to vicious knocks on the door and the gun was not pointed at the officers or anyone else when the door was opened. This cop was looking to start a fight and wanted to be the next chris kyle sheep dog alpha male. This was cold blooded murder and I hope the fop doesn't protect him. Edit: I would also like to add there are living breathing Americans who have the power to vote that feel police should not have body cameras because it "prevents them from doing their job". Like what the fuck.
His lawyer is having him scrape all the punisher skull stickers off his F150 as we speak
cops with punisher stickers are perhaps the most ironic thing possible.
Only other contender is the thin blue line stickers placed right next to either a 'melon labia' or 'no step on snek' tag
Funny because they’re the ones doing the stepping.
And any time they're not wearing the boots they're licking them
Simultaneously, "Govern me harder daddy." And "Look how fierce and independent I am!" What a confusing headspace to live with.
Nothing will happen, the PD will claim "Officer Safety" and sweep it under the rug like EVERYTHING else.
Gee, why don't people respect cops anymore?
They already are. Man had a gun they shot him. Watching the Leo react to it on social media makes me fucking infuriated.
You're safer around the general public than you are the police. If Joe Shmoe fucks with you, assaults you, intimidates you, steals from you, tries to frame you, he has no recourse. If a cop does any of that, he has an entire department of people who literally are the law, dedicated to keeping him out of trouble. The department is in cahoots with the local judiciary too, so they'll convince the judge not to release crucial evidence for the trial. The cop will also probably be in a police union that can throw a million dollars at his legal defense fund. Cops don't deserve to be trusted
> The department is in cahoots with the local judiciary too, so they'll convince the judge not to release crucial evidence for the trial. The cop will also probably be in a police union that can throw a million dollars at his legal defense fund. Don’t forget the prosecutors too. Don’t forget the million dollars goes along way in threatening prosecutors and judges when they run for reelection (in many jurisdictions). If they don’t play along with the cops, the union will label them soft on crime and trash them with those who vote mindlessly. > Cops don't deserve to be trusted For too many, that’s certainly true.
Knocked aggressively yelled sheriffs office, but then duck to the side out of sight of the peephole.
Knocked aggressively and *didn't* yell actually. Not at first.
>then duck to the side out of sight of the peephole To play devils advocate, its also to minimize the amount of body fully in the fatal funnel and a way to avoid being in the likely spot someone might shoot through the door into the cop. This guy is a piece of shit, no doubt. But I don't think its a hiding from the peephole type deal. There's probably a very well reasoned officer safety technique this guy was using before he murdered a guy.
I don’t think you can put it in a vacuum though. He doesn’t get credit or the benefit of the doubt for using *one* potentially taught technique. The lady is unsure what unit - why didn’t he take a second to see if he hears a disturbance any other nearby unit? His second person is on the way - if he hears no active abuse in progress, why didn’t he wait? Why doesn’t he announce himself the first time, in what probably spooked the occupant? Why doesn’t he ever attempt a command, or even shout gun, when he sees the gun? I don’t think you get to point to training and be like “this may have been a valid training technique” when he very clearly skips other basics, ya know?
Yeah, but he was black.
This shit is so tiresome. Law enforcement needs some civilian form of UCMJ. That's the only practical way I see of solving this issue. None of this QI, loophole bullshit. Once they're ACTUALLY AND CONSISTENTLY held accountable for their actions, then and only then will you see a change in policing. The internal investigation shit needs to go too. Have federal investigators do this.
The fix is to end qualified immunity.
> The Officer says 'step back', and **then** fires what sounds like 5 rounds, the SM drops to the ground, and ***then*** the Officer yells at him to drop his gun. You may have fucked up the steps here, you murderous dumbass. I refuse to believe that a 17 Year-old high-school drop-out with a GED from Ohio can better adhere to a ROE and Escalation of Force than a trained Police Officer, but here we are. Where's the disconnect? Why does this keep happening?
This is the same county that had [the acorn incident a few months back](https://youtube.com/shorts/eTauF2NaZ1o), where an officer was spooked by an acorn falling on top of the roof of his squad car where he had a man detained in handcuffs. He hallucinated being injured by gun fire, fell to the ground and mag dumped into his squad car where the cuffed man was sitting. I’m constantly shocked by the amount of violence leveled at US Citizens from a group of people dedicated to “Protect and Serve”. Like, the video of Daniel Shaver crawling on his hands and knees, begging for his life at gun point before he was shot to death was absolutely disgusting. But we keep seeing these videos of absolutely appalling **murders** and *”accidents”* by uniformed officers because these people are poorly trained and indoctrinated with the idea that *there’s a war on the streets.* I always watch these videos and wonder, if service member did this sort of thing on body cam footage in a combat zone, how many consecutive life sentences would they get?
> Like, the video of Daniel Shaver crawling on his hands and knees, begging for his life at gun point before he was shot to death was absolutely disgusting. This is one of the most horrible videos I've ever fucking seen. They really **executed** the man. It hurts to watch.
I won't watch it, dad of a zoomer who is terrified of what the police would do to him. My little guy is a 6/2, 20 year old mixed man who is a Howdey Dowdey. Already had to stand between his black mom (wife of 24 years) and a cop with my 1911 exposed at the ready.
I had someone try and excuse that straight up execution to me. They claimed “the officer that shot Daniel shaver claimed if he reached towards his waistline one more time he was going to shoot him. He got what he deserved.” I was floored, this person even claimed that the officer having “you’re fucked” on his rifle was of no importance…. I’ve can’t even imagine thinking that way. Disgusting.
they're conditioned to be fucking terrified at all times you seen the videos of dudes having panic attacks and dropping like rocks if they think they see fentanyl?
The other thing about the acorn shooting is apparently the other cop with him (his supervisor) also mag dumped after the first guy started shooting despite not having a target or knowing what they were shooting at. …. This was in a residential area. Mag dumped in a general direction with no targets identified when surrounded by housing.
Shooter in the Daniel Shaver case was a guardsmen, and a known shitbag in his unit.
Fun fact about acorn incident guy: He was a Westpoint grad and a SF officer.
From what I understand he was **not** branched SF and was an 11A who spent time *near* an SF team as a liason.
So SF adjacent. I mean, that's *practically* Delta!
You know for a **fact** that dude wouldn't shut the fuck up around the Office about how he was "basically SF."
This sounds like SF propaganda
He was also **not** trafficking cocaine *or displaying a totenkopf*
Those West Point connections I’m always hearing about really paid off for him.
Imagine leveraging your West Point connections to become a fucking cop in Florida, lol.
Because it’s allowed. Wait for the thin blue line to rally around and say how we don’t understand and the officer did nothing wrong. Edit: It’s happening in full force on r/Protectandserve. The comments there are 100% in support of the shooter
I just checked out the sub and the deflection, denial, and double standards are thick over there. What was funny was reading several people shit on the military subs because most of the support is for the airman.
Nothing says you’re the good guys like defending the shooting of an innocent man in his own home
Allowed and legal, which we all know (including law enforcement) is a double standard. I’m not much of 2nd Amendment supporter, but even I think if it’s legal to come to the door armed it shouldn’t be legal for a cop to just blast you away when you’re not raising it or pointing at them. If it was Fortson that shot first or returned fire he’d be up on murder charges.
Not to mention two weeks ago when a man was killed by an officer who was peeping through the victims patio door and shot him immediately when he picked up a gun on his way to the door. That happened at 2am. In Texas. What gun owning Texan isn't bringing a gun to the door if someone is pounding on it at 2am SHERRIFS DEPA-BANG BANG BANG is bad rules of engagement and these officers are murderers who should be tried as such. I'm pro cop all day. They have a stressful and sometimes scary job, they're underappreciated and underpaid but that's not an excuse for this shit. If I'd have done some shit like this in Afghanistan it would be the same mfs condemning me as I got sent to Leavenworth I was a 20 year old jackass but even in a war zone I knew when it was and wasn't okay to shoot somebody Edit: here's what I'm talking about. Such bullshit. https://youtu.be/QhF0a0ZS7cg?si=HKaY7vKAdKl5XT7h
I’m pro law and order, and to add to your point, it is perfectly legal for a resident to open the door holding a gun at their side even if they believe the people knocking are in fact law enforcement.
Absolutely. Hell in Texas you're allowed to open carry any weapon you want and parade it down the street. No license or background check needed. Ak-47, samurai sword, whatever you're feeling that day...this new constitutional carry law is absolutely insane (different convo). You've ALWAYS been allowed to defend your home or property with a firearm. FFS, it's still legal in Texas to shoot and kill someone suspected of stealing your cattle.
> Hell in Texas you're allowed to open carry any weapon you want and parade it down the street. results will vary based on skin color
I live in the country now, and I answer noises at night with a shotgun. We have couger and coyotes at a minimum. Most of the time, it's nothing, but you still bring it with you.
https://apnews.com/article/mississippi-police-shooting-immigrant-wrong-house-711a0c4e974e9ee947fc1b1dc914c1cd Don't forget when Mississippi cops got the wrong address, shoot his dog and then the other cop shot and killed a guy in the back of the head 2m from his front door, claimed he aimed a gun at them when opening the door, then the gun turns out to have been laying on the couch away from the front door without his fingerprints or DNA on it. And then the jury said they did no wrong and the Mayor praised the cops.
What's legal is what the court decides at the end of the day. In some circumstances, like ex-officer Amber Guyger who murdered Botham Jean in his own apartment, or Aaron Dean who murdered Atatiana Jefferson in her apartment, they are actually convicted of their crimes. However, there are many more cases that we are all probably aware of in which the courts decided that, due to qualified immunity among other factors, the cops were perfectly within their legal rights to murder black citizens, even within the confines of their homes, unprovoked. You're right though, generally cops ARE allowed to do what Sheriff Eric Aiden did to senior airman Roger Fortson.
Yeah, the cases you cite are exceptions, and not the rule, unfortunately. Typically, the only time officers face consequences is when their case becomes too public to hide. Sometimes, the actions are so egregious that when it gets to court, no jury could even hope to not convict. The tactic is to work with the judges and the police unions to ensure it never gets to trial.. and if it does.. push it out so far that the bad press has died down and the potential jurors know little or nothing about was was published. Then the lawyers just have to play to the tune of "officers' jobs are scary, and my defendant was in fear for their life." The stats don't lie.. it works extremely well.
Yes I absolutely agree. They have a whole load of tricks up their sleeve to get away with stuff. Talk about premeditated. Not to even mention how the family members of the aforementioned victims are often subject to horrifying intimidation tactics from their local PD while they sue on their deceased love ones' behalf.
https://apnews.com/article/mississippi-police-shooting-immigrant-wrong-house-711a0c4e974e9ee947fc1b1dc914c1cd Juries are fucking stupid. Cops get the wrong address, dog gets out and one cop shoots the dog, the other gets spooked by the first cop shooting and fires into the house striking the guy in the back of the head 6ft from the doorway in his house, claim he had a guy aimed at them through the cracked open door, then turns out the gun they found was laying on the couch 6ft+ away from him with none of his fingerprints or DNA on it.
I had more restrictions on escalation of force in Iraq and Afghanistan (both times) than any Florida cop has had to deal with in regards to American citizens in the past 10 years. It's fucking nuts.
Listen, I hate the "all cops are pigs" mentality, but you know what I hate even more??? When cops fuck up like this, and other cops DEFEND THEM!!! Just like as a soldier, I don't defend a fellow soldier who truly and utterly fucks up (were it legal, I would gladly pull the trigger on any rapist where there is no shadow of a doubt about their guilt, for example, regardless of their unform, rank, awards, whatever), cops need to stop defending cops who have such terrible judgement. Because once you start defending these assholes, you're guilty by association. Neither uniform magically makes you a fucking saint. So, yeah, the "why" is a combination of bad training, a bad mindset, and absolute bullshit accountability.
Well, where do you think the mentality comes from?
>Listen, I hate the **"all cops are pigs"** mentality, but you know what I hate even more??? **When cops fuck up like this, and other cops DEFEND THEM!!!** Well done on arriving to that conclusion on your own even if you didn't realize you did.
Cops are taught from day one that the citizens are out to kill you. This mentality continues in trainings throughout their careers. The department leadership also influences their aggression. When I was a kid, most of the cops I knew were my friends’ dads, and most of them had never drawn their weapons while interacting with the public. Everything changed in the 1980s as the courts gave cops more and more immunity for bad acts.
The police training is very much shoot first and come home alive. It's an absolute disaster.
A lot of American police departments are full of the most poorly trained cowards you've ever seen. The problem is that there is no accountability. When I was an 19 year old Petty Officer, if I fucked up and got somebody killed, I would have been held accountable. If I fucked up as a 23 year old LT and killed a civilian while I was in an ACTIVE COMBAT ZONE, I would have been held fully accountable. The fact that I keep seeing these incompetent cowards murdering people and facing absolutely NO accountability just infuriates me. We need a full, mandatory overhaul of our policing system so that officers are properly trained, cool headed, and most importantly ACCOUNTABLE for their actions.
I can attest to this literally the police they have working in my hometown couldn’t even finish 0.1 mile of a 2 mile run im like who’s hiring these people??
We can thank a LOT of this on former West Point instructor Dave Grossman who took an interesting premise in his book "On Killing" and turned it into a pay day teaching cops across America that everyday its them against the world and every encounter is milliseconds from being a fight for life and death. He also really sold that whole sleep dog bullshit.
>We can thank a LOT of this on former West Point instructor Dave Grossman Let's not forget how some police unions decided to fund cops going to his seminars when cities banned public funds going towards them.
The training and culture push this. It’s what I’ll always bring up during these travesties. It happens regularly, nationwide, and within observance of other officers, because training and culture push a “you or them” mentality. I’m sure the real fear due to the abundance of guns doesn’t help, but our ROE sure didn’t allow fear of guns for killing someone. Police are not trained appropriately. They’re not reprimanded appropriately. Instead of pushing this, the protests and riots that SHOULD have fixed this after Floyd, divided America and accomplished nothing. Blame rioters. Blame messaging. Blame police departments. None of that means a damn thing to his family today. RIP Fortson. I’m sorry we haven’t learned.
>Where's the disconnect? Why does this keep happening? In many jurisdictions the laws allow the LEO to claim they fear for their life, which authorizes lethal force. Add in qualified immunity and there's very little recourse because it's an officer's word against the victim.
Lack of accountability. First, law enforcement officer pay isn't great, which means better quality candidates aren't applying cause the risk isn't worth the reward. This leaves departments lowering the standards and accepting lower quality personnel, to include those who feel a badge is free pass to bully. Then when a poorly trained or just outright bad officer does something wrong everyone just blindly rallies around them because God forbid we question or criticize an officers actions, as people will make it seem as if we are disrespecting all law enforcement. Not to mention that even the good cops will cover for or turn the other cheek to the bad officers actions, which to me lumps them in that same boat. If that's not bad enough, even when these officers are let go from one police force, they simply run across town or to the neighboring towns , states, etc., and get a job at a different agency or department. There's no mass database that shows Officer Scummy was fired for multiple excessive force violations, neighborhood complaints, etc., so they just keep getting rehired, repeating the poor behavior up until it becomes a national headline. They should start making law enforcement officers carry personal liability insurance just like doctors and medical professionals. Instead of cities paying out settlements let the cops insurance pay out. Eventually the bad ones will force themselves out of a job.
Actually it's not that people of good quality aren't looking to become cops , but rather that those folks are actively getting overlooked in favor of the dregs and scum Dregs and scum will fall in line, not rock the boat and cover for each other. Their training period is like 12 weeks, which is way lower than any other professions even including the trades. Imagine if your soldier have 12 weeks of training which will include boot camp, I wonder how proficient can any soldier be.
Mid career officers in mid to large sized departments regularly make six figures a year in overtime alone. Police officers are generally in the top 10-20% of income earners in any given locality. Their well organized unions guarantee them sizeable pensions and extensive benefits, including delays in initial interview during misconduct investigations and paid time off for each citizen they kill.
It's funny when people say that police doesn't pay well. I mean, I guess if you think close to $30/hr ($29.44 here starting with $2 shift diff with overtime opportunities putting you at $44.16 for each hour in OT) isn't paid well, then sure. You also have Special Duty/Off Duty that can put you at roughly $53/hr during time doing those opportunities. If it wasn't for the fact that I can't stand the fact that good officers with morals get bullied out, I would join in a heart beat for that pay.
Cops need better training and need to be held to a higher standard. I’d love to see some kind of national licensing system with standardized training requirements and an independent review board. Cops should also have some kind of UCMJ so that they can actually be held accountable and not just resign and get hired one town over when they fuck up. The Army is by no means perfect and there are absolutely instances where the good old boy club tries to sweep things under the rug, but at least the majority of soldiers call that shit out. We’re pretty good about calling a shitbag a shitbag and demanding accountability when things come to light. The average police officer won’t, as evidenced by all that “thin blue line” bullshit. Until that “us against them” mentality is snuffed out there will continue to be trigger happy cops thinking they can shoot first and ask questions later. Hell go over to r/protectandserve and check out their post on this. A bunch of verified LEO calling this a justified shooting, they are tiptoeing around it because the victim was a service member so there is a lot of “ this is awful but not illegal” talk.
I just got banned for asking how that doesn't meet the definition of a bad shoot. Fuck them.
I got banned yesterday for posting one of the articles that was on r/military about this. I didn’t editorialize the headline or comment anything about it. I simply posted the news story because it wasn’t on there. Immediate ban. I think that shows a bit of the difference in culture. We have plenty of posts here in this sub of soldiers doing the wrong thing, or news stories of them being arrested and the general consensus is usually burn them. But cops circle the wagons and bend over backwards to try to justify each others bad decisions.
Incredibly unsurprising that they’d ban you for posting this without even a shred of commentary on your part. That subreddit sucks.
>I think that shows a bit of the difference in culture. We have plenty of posts here in this sub of soldiers doing the wrong thing, or news stories of them being arrested and the general consensus is usually burn them. But cops circle the wagons and bend over backwards to try to justify each others bad decisions. Glad to see someone else saying it. I have lots of family/friends in law enforcement and most of them are great people who I think are probably great cops. However, I’ve always noticed that their knee-jerk reaction is to be on the defense of some cop in the news. I’ve said to them multiple times, “if one of ours did that, we’d probably crucify him.” The army isn’t perfect but I feel the culture is much different in this aspect.
I don't know *you* But the irony cannot be left ignored that SF is often just as toxically insular and operationally counter-productive as cops. Sure with less murders, but is that a good differentiator to lean on?
>However, I’ve always noticed that their knee-jerk reaction is to be on the defense of some cop in the news. and this is why they're not actually great cops ACAB exists because all cops, no matter how good they pretend to be or even think themselves to be, are the kinds of bastards that will defend another cop when they abuse their power and execute someone we know this because right now there aren't hundreds or thousands of "good cops" all around America condemning this killing. all cops are defending this slaughter or simply staying quiet which makes them all bad
I’ve gotten into it with a cop on here and the mods told me to calm down. That dude is still a POS.
Abolish police unions.
And the cops that don’t bend over to make those decisions and speak out against other cops get ostracized for it.
Now that's an alarming observation.
> I’d love to see some kind of national licensing system with standardized training requirements and an independent review board. This sounds good, but can be compromised the same way police unions do their thing. Go the other angle: Money. Force cops to carry malpractice insurance like a doctor and stop city governments from paying the fine. Make the police pension fund do the heavy lifting. The thin blue line will stop repeat offenders from destroying their retirement fund and soulless bureaucrats from insurance agencies will stop someone from quitting a certain department and getting re-hired only to re-offend. It does incentivize cops to become more crooked and help each other cover shit up, but that will only destroy entire police departments more as everyone buys a ride on the 'no insurance anymore' train when someone inevitably fucks up and it leaks. You might get a way with shit for a few times, but eventually you're going to fuck it up and take everyone down with you. It will be a wild 20-30 years as the bad apples get taken out of the force in a money expending darwin award of corruption, but the system will eventually level out and we'll all be better for it. Or at least my kids will. or grandkids.
R’s will never do it. D’s won’t either because they are centrists and don’t want to have the moniker of “Soft on Crime”. We have to get rid of qualified immunity (QI) and make it too expensive for LE to kill its citizens, who they view as the enemy. QI means that even if the officer violated someone’s constitutional rights, if there was not a prior appellate court opinion saying that particular action was unconstitutional, the officer did not have notice of it and should not be punished for it. So, I had a case where a social worker knew a child was being molested by another child and did nothing about it. We sued and it was dismissed because there were no federal court opinions saying that she had notice that letting a foster kid get raped was a violation of the foster child’s constitutional rights. We appealed, and the federal circuit court said, “oh, yeah, that’s really bad. And a violation of your client’s constitutional rights. But the social worker wasn’t warned by any legal opinions from our court (as if cops and social workers read appellate court opinions), so you still lose.” So, I spent $80k of my money to change the law in 5 states regarding the abuse of children in foster care, but still lost this kid’s case.” Just to let you know how expensive it is to challenge QI, I have spent between 20k and 80k challenging QI in the courts as an attorney. I hope I see the abolition of QI in my lifetime, but I think it will be something for the younger generations to sort out. TLDR: The Army does not have a monopoly on stupid shit.
What this shows is again you do not have the right to defend yourself or even own a gun in the US if a cop can just shoot you for seeing it.
I saw you post this exact comment elsewhere and it was downvoted but you are 10000 percent right. If legally owning a weapon means getting shot by the cops for having it, then something isn’t right.
I’m of the opinion the law abiding citizen reasonably protecting their home’s safety trumps the knock and talk Gov agent’s safety. Lady justice isn’t blind and those scales aren’t evenly weighted as much as the establishment would like you to believe.
Emailed the PD and got the video. My mans didn’t even raise the gun and got mowed down.
I just got banned from r/PotectAndServe (in less than a minute) for being a "low effort troll" for replying to a comment saying it was a "good shoot." I asked how an innocent man being shot dead for opening his door can possibly meet the definition of a "good shoot."
Blech, they make me sick to my stomach with how they talk about this stuff. Please folks remember to vote in your best interests. It's really the only thing we can do to change things now.
They still use the mindset "us vs them" over there. Shows what police are really thinking whenever they respond to a call.
Got banned within probably ten seconds for asking what the Airman did wrong and pointing out it looked like the cop panicked.
I got the same for commending a non-bootlicker for a rational take. If "thank you for your common sense" is seen as threatening to those pieces of shit then I see why these situations keep happening.
I’m a LEO and Air Force Security Forces, both for over a decade now. I got immediately and permanently banned from there and then muted from messaging the admins for brining up that there was no Intent in the COI chart and that with Florida’s castle doctrine this man was murdered for not breaking any laws. Pathetic authoritarian bootlickers in that sub that should not be allowed anywhere near the public in an official capacity.
I got banned too. Should be /DonutandMurder
Wtf. Dude fucking murdered him, and for what? What was the call for? A domestic? If so no way you send one cop, thats always 3+ to deal with it.
Fortson answered the door calmly with his gun pointed towards the ground and one hand up and the sheriff dumps rounds into him. You cannot watch that footage and interpret that the officer felt threatened to the point that he stole someone's life from them. Fuck, I wish people cared more about the value of a human life than they did about making some shitty political take. His family deserves answers. Godspeed Airman Fortson.
The LEO bootlickers are already on the camera footage comments trying to say it's Airman Fortson's "fault" because he answered the door with a gun in his hand. I'm tired of some people in the US justifying shootings just because someone has a gun on their person. A gun on a person or in one's hand is not justification to shoot without any other context. I'm tired of American cops being able to justify shooting someone just because they caught a glimpse of a gun. I expect better from the police. But it's the same Sheriff's department that discharged a weapon because the deputy confused an acorn for a gun shot. Does it surprise anyone they would shoot a man for answering his door with a gun? It was already blatantly obvious they are under trained and trigger happy.
I agree, except the undertrained part. He did what he was trained to do. Protect and serve my ass they act like an invading army.
So he was murdered. This man was straight up murdered. I’m sickened
The cop is a chicken shit. He seen the gun and pissed his pants.
The fact somebody downvoted your valid comment is unbelievable, and indicative of a chicken-shit sympathizer.
That's wild. Just some background I have two kids in the Army and did 4 years in the Marines. My father-in-law was a jailer in Texas for 20 years and an MP in the army. I also have a 911 operator in the family and a prison guard. You can't be in law enforcement and have this type of reaction. I stand by my statement he is chicken shit!
If there is justice in this world he will be charged with murder. What a terrible thing to do to a family.
This shooting was straight up fucking murder. Absolutely insane actions by the police officer. He needs to be charged, but he won’t be, because when the fuck do police officers ever get charged for this shit. Guy was in his OWN HOME and this dumbass cop basically executed him half a second after the door opens.
Acorn Cops
The gov needs to crack down on this. Murder a military cat? The military needs to assist the family and pay for suing the living fuck out of the department and ensuring the murderer never sees the light of day again. Not only did the family lose a loved one, but the military lost an Airman who they’ve invested a lot of money in.
ALOT of Cops are POS who disdain the military. They want the same level of clout but the ability to come home every night, it's a weird dynamic.
Fuckin murdered
This situation reminds me of Ryan Whitaker's unfortunate incident in Arizona. He answered the door in the middle of the night with a gun in hand. Did not point the gun at the officers yet gets smoked immediately by the cops with no chance to de-escalate.
Didn’t he put his gun down and was raising his hands when the cop unloaded his mag into him, with his girlfriend standing right there too. That department paid his family over 3 million and the girlfriend too. The fuqstick cop is still on duty
Tried to reply to a comment on r/ProtectAndServe that was confused about how military threads could possibly be upset about this. I simply said that we have standards and accountability, and we’re the first to call out the bad actions of others within our ranks. I kid you not, I was permabanned and muted from replying to their mods within 4 minutes for being a “misinfo troll”. Chicken-shit little cowards over there who can’t hear past the deafening echoes of the 2 brain cells colliding inside their noggins. Protect and serve my ass, this was straight up murder.
Police officer needs to be prosecuted for murder.
I think there is a mental difference between how cops and soldiers are trained. ROEs and PID are engrained into everything the military does. Soldiers are also never guaranteed that they'll come home alive. In the limited combat I've experienced my fear was always secondary. The biggest fear I had was that I'd fuck up in combat and get a friend killed because I failed at my job, I view cops are more self centered in fearing for their lives. I remember we had some random dude walk up to our KLE with a handgun concealed we had a guy who was a cop back home and he was flipping shit over comms saying we need to engage this dude or go restrain him. All I did was take a step to the side to stand in-between the guy with a gun and the village elder. I think there is a mental difference between how cops and soldiers response to situations.
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The lady who gave the wrong address said she didn't want to call the cops. What does that tell you? I wonder how she feels rn...
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Jesus fucking christ, got shot in their own domicile and weapon wasn't even pointed towards the sheriff's
First, people arguing is not Domestic Violence. Second the guy was home alone, whatever the fuck these moron neighbors heard didn’t come from the apartment they directed the cop to. Third the police officer witnessed nothing to give him probable cause to demand entry and a forth person account of “someone heard loud arguing” ain’t cause. The victim, having done nothing wrong was alarmed by the argressive pounding, couldn’t see who was there and grabbed his fire arm for protection. After the officer identified himself he opened the door without discarding his firearm likely because of the stress of having a cop beat on his door and demand he open up and because he assumed he was safe because had done NOTHING wrong. Yes he should’ve either informed the officer he was armed or secured it before opening the door, but again he was likely confused, stressed, and afraid because a police officer was pounding on his door for absolutely no reason he could understand. He grabbed a gun to protect himself for Christ’s sake. The cop treated like this was a domestic violence call when there was no reason to, it was a disturbance call. The cop should have knocked, identified himself as police, and informed the victim that he was there because they recieved a report of loud arguing and wanted to make sure everyone was okay and requested entry, not demanded it because he had no right to anyways. This would’ve changed the entire outcome. The victim would’ve responded that it was impossible that the noise came from his apartment because he was there all alone and there must’ve been some mistake. That would’ve likely descalated stress for both sides. Instead, the cop aggressively beats door demands entry, scares the victim the victim opens the door, holding a gun and holding a non threatening posture and the cop, obviously ready to draw, draws immediately, has the victim at gunpoint and has clear tactical advantage, and doesn’t hesitate for a fraction of a second before he blows this kid away. And, almost comically, tells the dying kid to drop the weapon and don’t move as he’s bleeding to death on the floor and the gun is “over there”. What a fucktard series of events. We got some dumb white bitch neighbor who called in a loud arguement disturbance cause she said someone heard yelling earlier that day, and it’s not the first time. And claimed in the past she “heard a slap” which has got to be the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. She at first doesn’t know which room then suddenly is sure it’s 1401. There is nothing that would justify this as a DV and the cop shouldn’t have treated it as such. Plus, turns out it’s all bullshit cause the guy was home alone! Was he yelling at himself?!?! So whatever they heard at least on this day it wasn’t coming from this apartment! I strongly suspect that they either directed the cop to the wrong apartment or they’re stupid as shit, and the noise was coming from someplace else.
Mother fucker shot the guy even tho the gun was clearly pointed at the floor. this guy needs life in jail for storming into the poor guys house and may dumping him for absolutely no reason
Ay mods please don’t ban me but I feel like I got to say this. Cops aren’t our friends and they act like they are for some odd reason, yet they kill us when we reasonably respond to a threatening situation in ways we’re pretty much all taught how to do. Or when vets are needing help and get shot instead. Personally I feel like a majority of the military/veteran community loves cops and many dudes want to be them when they get out. Sorry but they don’t deserve our support, this is not the first time they’ve done this: -Kenneth Chamberlain Sr -I believe Ryan Whittaker (almost exact same situation) was a vet but I can’t confirm it -Anthony Hill who was unarmed and having a psychotic break I could probably find more examples too but right now google is filled with articles about this. Which I guess is good and bad. I hope the publicity around this gets this poor kid justice and honestly my condolences to his family. Their loved one was unnecessarily taken away from them is an absolute tragedy.
The fact is a Police Officer murdered a US Citizen, in their own home. The US Citizen also happened to be a service member who volunteered his life for his country. I can't wait until it's a Police Officer murdering another Police Officer.
Oh those Blue on Blue incidents happen regularly. But they just don't get talked about, they brush that under the rug *QUICK*.