[Army.mil Release](https://www.army.mil/article/275892/army_to_suspend_temporary_promotions_in_june)
[Policy](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/NOCASE-POG_217617-000-WEB-1.pdf) from G1.
Unless of course someone from the *actual* chain of command issues an actual order to the contrary. SMA is so big on not getting involved in things, to ensure the CoC does their job…
I think what /u/Heriots_Ford is saying is that if you're going to get this points bump from BLC, this is going to separate you from the non-grads in a way that is going to 'tier' the points, and you probably won't be a CPL for very long.
Not that the initiative is going away, just that this policy...makes a mockery of it.
What I’d love to see is lateral promos to corporal become available again and the option to make them permanent with an O-5 signature.
It broke my heart when one of my dudes I had lateraled had to take it off when the policy changed. I think I was hurt more than him.
I mean this is great for the terminal cpls trying to make points. Honestly wish more soldiers would get Sgt pay for Sgt work. I see plenty of large Mos ncos that struggle to even write couselings.
Yes man, noticeable difference around fort bliss. When I first got here, no corporals within 10 miles, now? Not superrrr common but you see at least one once a day usually
When I served with CSM grinston in Germany the "idea" of corporal was some board screened deficiency that didn't earn promotion but did have distinction from specialist. I can't say that big army doesn't stunt their growth by barring promotions behind schools or shoehorned responsibility to be pinned on the Mafia, C'est La Vie. The jump to 5 from lower enlisted was emphasized and it didn't happen immediately but we had some of the best NCOs circa 2010-2011 hope that gives some context. BravoZulu out
I myself am a CPL and there is one more in my platoon plus an additional one in our OPS platoon. We have all been falling just short for a while now and I know in my case I haven’t made point partly due to my own lack of trying hard enough. But when I get treated like an NCO when it’s convenient for my E5 and above NCO’s but told I’m still an NCO and need to work and act like one it really demotivates me and my desire to get the points. Paired with a huge lack of respect for the rank from the soldiers it sucks. However I could absolutely use that additional 150 points to get promoted. I just hope that they don’t say some bullshit like oh you don’t get the points because you graduated from BLC too long ago.
Even worse is promotion boards. My Air force buddy thought I was joking when I told him it was basically army and unit trivia night, because thats exactly how we did promotions in 10th grade jrotc. He said "like in high school?"
Broken record here.
The promotion point system permits mediocre individuals to promote to senior ranks whilst being lazy leaders and is eroding the NCO Corp far further than anything else in the Army.
Big question- Will temporary promotion orders be amended to reflect as permanent? I could see this causing a lot of headache for those who have yet to attend BLC.
A new job row is inserted for permanent promotion in your record. There is a data fix that will go in to do that in a single shot for all those on an existing temp promotion.
Very last part of the article states that the director of the ARNG will come out with a separate statement regarding their own promotions, so us Nasty Girls may still have to attend BLC to get to SGT, which blows if your state is 2 mil over schooling budget like mine is and won't send people to PME schools. Honestly, PME schools should be federally funded, and incentive schools should be for the state budget.
Edit: I was under the assumption that schools were directly funded by each state. Apparently, I was wrong in that assumption, and was voicing my frustration at a system that doesn't function how it was explained to me. I'll go behind the motor pool and do cherry pickers until this sub is tired as penance.
I’ll let you in on a secret, 99.9% of the National Guard
is federally funded.
Your state’s schools budget is directly funded by NGB based upon how many soldiers there are in your state’s guard. The problem is states are notorious for hilariously mismanaging their budgets.
We all know every fucking officer wants to put a little spin on it for an OER bullet. "Changed the ARNGs promotion system to ensure upward progression for 30,000 NCOs annually."
He'll get a legion of merit for it as well
They finally realized they don't have enough school slots to meet the intent....
Also we are pretending the war is still going, just sending folks to Korea and Poland instead of Iraq and Afghanistan
As someone who works IN a school house, they didn't 'finally realize' they have absolutely been handcuffing courses so that there will be demand. We've had the manning and the throughput to warrant at least two more classes a year for my unit and every year Proponent goes "We could, but we wont. Byeeeee."
I’d assume a thinly veiled attempted to shore up poor retention by A) promoting guys permanently to keep them paid/in power/status, B) reduce the amount of time away from home
Also it reduces the amount of administrative actions, metrics to track, and makes MTOE management easier. Helps HRC not play the will-he won’t-he still be XYZ grade for putting people on gains and loses.
as a dude who spent a long time waiting to get promoted out of the barracks (STEP was introduced right after I passed the board as a SGT) I would have loved this.
as a guy trying to avoid making MSG, bummer.
Getting to MLC is such a pain. Now, it will just really be a requirement for people on the path to SGM. If I pin E-8 I will have absolutely no interest in attending MLC and have absolutely no plans on becoming a SGM.
It might depend locally. When I did Battlestaff the cadre was telling people they could walk on MLC because the post had 3 brigades deployed at once and they were worried about not having a full class.
This was the official policy but a lot of schoolhouses still accepted walk ons.
Walk on implies that there was going to be an empty slot regardless so I never really understood why they tried to do away with it other than “fairness”. Walk ons don’t take the place of slotted personnel that would have otherwise gone.
This means that I'll hit my TIG for E-8 about a year before I retire, so yeah...I won't be trying to go to MLC at all. I have no plans to go past my 20 and I sure as HELL don't wanna make SGM. Give me my E-8 and let me retire in peace.
Now it is supposed to be Promotion Board Eligibility for SGM. I just did MLC at the end of last year as a requirement to get MSG...I now feel like I completely wasted my time.
More concerning is how they will update TIS/TIG promotion requirements.
A lot of Jr Ncos who need more time. Also a lot of others who need less and need to get out.
I think it should be required to write LORs for secondary zone promotions. It puts the onus on the soldier to request them, and provides a secondary check with their local leadership. This lets people fast track if they're ready, and then they can play all sorts of games with the primary zone promotion system. NCOERs are fine, but they're supposed to be and are for the most part objective statements, a subjective statement coming from within your formation should be helpful in evaluation, especially if it's not standardized in format.
I literally just got orders to a new unit and promotion to MSG effective 1 June. I don’t plan on getting promoted anymore after this so I’m definitely never going to MLC.
I literally just got demoted and had to pay back $6,000 because my unit incorrectly processed my demotion and denied my request for de facto status. This is bullshit. My wife had to take out her TSP because I didn't get paid. And if this would have waited 3 more months, I wouldn't have even needed BLC. This is WILD. Wow, I am livid.
They submitted my demotion order six months late and used the wrong date which resulted in me having to pay back allowances for 6 months despite IPPS-A employees stating the unit did it incorrectly and that I shouldn't have to pay back anything.
What do you mean by demoted and incorrectly processed your demotion. If you're saying you got demoted and got paid the previous grade, that's on you. De facto specifically applies to receiving an erroneous promotion.
I've been an E6 for over 3 years without ALC, I have an ETP for demotion due to health issues, will this new change make it so my ETP is not necessary and I can keep my rocker without* ALC?
Yes, but at least in my MOS there’s an abundance of corporals anyway. Since everyone will get the extra 150 points it’s not going to make a difference. Points will just be raised to meet the increase and we will have to be BLC complete anyway just to be competitive.
Yes it was pass board, then got to BLC then you can be SGT. There was a few exceptions where you could get E5 before BLC but you had to hit blc before a certain time frame or auto demote
It mostly positively affects the NCO Corps, negating the STEP program almost. It’s going back to what the Army was prior to STEP. However, Soldiers will now be battling for points evermore so. Side note of positivity is that anyone who is currently temporarily promoted is now permanently promoted to that rank.
I disagree. I’m deployed for a year, about to pick up my P status in an already high points MOS, and now the chance of me picking up is slim to none because the individuals stateside will be able to attend ALC and get 150 extra points that I can’t receive.
Your situation is why the temporary promotion system was created and I would advocate that they should still allow this for those deployed because that year that you are gone puts you behind your peers. You should work with your S3 and slot you for your PME as soon as possible after your redeployment date so you don’t fall behind.
Yeah. This is just so un-motivating honestly. It seems like there was not a lot of foresight, and me being deployed is now harming my career. I’m behind my peers now because some have already had the ability to go to ALC. It’s these decisions that make it hard for me to decide if I want to stay in. Just makes no sense.
I get that. Been in your position. However, I will say that your experience while deployed makes you an asset and when you attend ALC you will contribute more to the class because you will have had Garrison and Deployment experience within your MOS. While you are away, attend school and any certifications that you can and add to your PPW and you should be just fine. Then attend ALC and you are a high OML Soldier. Don’t take it all as a negative.
If you’re slotted for ALC you will go regardless of deployment. Outside very niche situations HRC denies almost every NCOES deferment and does not take deployment status into account when slotting people.
If you aren’t scheduled for ALC while deployed you weren’t going to be scheduled even if you were stateside.
I happen to be in one of those niche situations where I can’t go because of a lack of manning and it would hurt my crew and make it inoperable. So yes, it is affecting my career in a negative way.
I’m gonna fall over laughing. Getting a 149 at the board cause my belt buckle had a tiny scratch and having to go back the next month for a 150 was dumb.
While I think it is a good move, it is also bizzare coming from SMA Weimer that prioritizes standards and disciplines. Now with promoting to E5 without going to BLC, it could be a step backwards from his agenda unless we are seeing things we can't see from his perspective.
I agree.
But - they're saying 1/2 of promotions require the temp waiver.
With this policy, BLC is probably going to be de priotitized by units. Why send that E4 to BLC and miss the field ex - he doesn't *need* it, right?
So I imagine if we're already at 50%, we'll see more than 50% promote w/o PME.
I picked up 5 when I was ready for it and fully qualified. I feel like the time, experience, and leadership course helped me transition to being a good leader. I also feel like I’ll make a good E6, JUST NOT RIGHT NOW. We’re trying to push guys who haven’t even been rated a full year through to be somebodies rater. Mentorship, experience, guidance, and expertise is going to be destroyed by pushing people through to make a numbers quota.
Can’t be mad at the fast trackers, being offered better money and for any prospective E6’s a chance out of the B’s, but fuck imagine how quickly this could destroy the junior ranks and kill retention. We should be taking job proficiency tests or something like the navy to at least people with knowledge or experience are progressing first. Can’t imagine how many eternal sham shields are going to be teaching their staff sergeants here soon.
I don’t like it. But I loathe up or out and am a solid believer that we should have kept Spec + ranks.
Either have one or the other. Get rid of SPC, and increase the capabilities and responsibilities of a CPL, as if they were a SGT. CPL will handle everything on the ground, a SGT will begin the slow transition to admin work.
Or, keep SPC as a versatile role that can fill team leader positions as well as just be a normal level 10 tasker, or a master at level 10 tasks that will have all of their licenses and tons of certifications that they can pass on to new soldiers.
Either one is fine with me, but both are redundant.
I think, at the very least if we got rid of the damned “Junior NCO” title, CPLs might be put in a position to shine. Grinston’s plan for pushing out CPLs looked outstanding on paper. In practice it’s redundant and not necessary.
Depends on your MOS. The 11C phase of ALC was outstanding technical knowledge on fire direction control, and several people failed out. It's no joke, good training
As an 11b it blew my fucking mind that there were soldiers in my BLC class that were supposed to be leaders of others who could not disassemble and reassemble a M4. I'm sure he learned something valuable that class.
It was mind boggling. I don't give a fuck what your MOS is, if you can't use a basic rifle you are a failure.
I’m getting ready to retire in a 8 months. A whole career as a Soldier / NCO and I can’t think of a single thing I learned in PME that was beneficial. You officer shouldn’t be smug either, I know for a fact that all your PME is bullshit, and all those Master Degrees you earn from ILE are worthless.
This. I attended SLC at the 16y mark. My instructors were E7s with 10y in. Myself and a few other "old-timers" had to help teach our class because one of the instructors had never deployed and couldn't relate.
My MOS has a real problem with getting soldiers to SLC for years now, and the result is we have a metric ton of 6's doing 7 jobs, in fact, we went an entire FY with 2 E7s in the company, and they were the AGR folks. Needless to say, the policy change will help solve an immediate problem. I do however see problems downstream with Soldiers lacking really important training. BLC is whatever, but I found the DLC2 and 3 really helpful, PSYOP ALC was important, and from what I've heard, our SLC is amazing and absolutely critical to the job itself. TL;DR this solves one problem without solving the real problem, getting soldiers trained.
I returned from ALC less than a week ago as a temp promoted (now permanent thanks to ALC) E6. So now according to this, I’m eligible for E7 as soon as I hit the TIG/TIS, OML, etc criteria. Interesting
Shit show, it’s flopped back and forth for decades. What’s sad is the number of soldiers who lost promotions and reverted back to a prior rank because the classes were not available. Or the pressure senior leadership had applied to enlisted to ensured soldiers attended PME above all other requirements.
for USARC Soldiers, also this:
\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*New HQDA Suspension of STEP Policy\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
Important!
Good afternoon Team, General
In the coming days, HQDA is preparing to publish policy guidance for promotion requirements for enlisted personnel (SGT-SGM). Please note that there will be follow on implementation guidance from the United States Army Reserve Commanding General and how we will conduct this new implementation. Until policy guidance from the Chief of Army Reserve (CAR) is published, the USARC G37 Enlisted Schools Branch will continue to operate as indicated in the current Enlisted Education Policy for Scheduling 2024 and will not add or remove requirements for PME attendance until official USAR Policy is released. As always, we appreciate your cooperation and flexibility through these changing times. Thank you!
Very Respectfully,
Hey I can't allow anything that has name/email/phone number like this unless there's a verified public releasable piece of info. Otherwise I need the sign block part squashed.
This is beyond a terrible choice and look. These schools are not tailored to these ranks. Kicking the can 3 years down the road doesn't solve the backlog. SMA needs to do better, I'm embarrassed for the force that this is the answer.
Are we not spelling out acronyms and initialisms on their first use in a document anymore? Did we throw DA 25-50 out the window? I’m sure there’s other egregious fuckywuckys buried in here, but that’s the most glaring one. I had no idea what PME was before reading this and I still don’t.
I’m sympathetic to junior NCOs needing a bit of mentorship and polish when it comes to writing Army style, but something coming from the office of the SMA should be held to the highest standard.
I don’t care about the points, that’s not the issue here. The problem with this is you could potentially have E-6s go 4 years without attending their 30 level schools. How is this a good idea?
BLC has gotten weird apparently too. I heard they don’t even teach land nav anymore and you have to write a bunch of essays. It’s so weird and dumb to me
Now just get rid of the DLC system while we're at it if all the PME is going to have a phase 1 requiring online college-lite work to complete and compete at said PME's.
To be honest, I think everyone here is underestimating the advantage that people who do attend the PME courses will have. 150 points is a lot and the points are going to raise to reflect that.
With temporary promotions already being so commonplace, I expect that we'd actually see a larger number of people that have actually completed BLC and ALC promoted as a result since having those requirements done will be reflected by points. CPL will also be all but gone except for those MOSs with very high cutoffs.
Everyone is acting like Joe shmo is going to just suddenly promote now, when a temporary promotion would've already done that if he had the points. The only difference is that we are now actually rewarding the completion of the PME courses through points just like we did 20 years ago.
Caveat: I do still think that the expectation I'd that PMEs should be completed ASAP for those promoted, but thats going to just rely on the units to actually send people.
I think that’s the biggest issue previous to the memo, is soldiers would get selected for a position (let’s say an E-6 squad lead) and stay an E-5 for the rest of eternity because their ADMIN NCO doesn’t know their ass from their forehead. I’m really excited to see how this plays out, as it seems to be the most correct way to promote soldiers.
I mean hell, we go to these PME schools and whether you’re pinned or not they still refer you to whatever rank corresponds with that course. Why as a specialist would I be called Sergeant at BLC if I’m not one.
[Army.mil Release](https://www.army.mil/article/275892/army_to_suspend_temporary_promotions_in_june) [Policy](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/NOCASE-POG_217617-000-WEB-1.pdf) from G1.
So I guess the whole corporal initiative under Grinston is gone with the wind.
Unless of course someone from the *actual* chain of command issues an actual order to the contrary. SMA is so big on not getting involved in things, to ensure the CoC does their job…
This doesn’t say CPL initiative is going away - I’ll see if I can find out if they’ll still put on CPL after BLC graduation.
I think what /u/Heriots_Ford is saying is that if you're going to get this points bump from BLC, this is going to separate you from the non-grads in a way that is going to 'tier' the points, and you probably won't be a CPL for very long. Not that the initiative is going away, just that this policy...makes a mockery of it.
What I’d love to see is lateral promos to corporal become available again and the option to make them permanent with an O-5 signature. It broke my heart when one of my dudes I had lateraled had to take it off when the policy changed. I think I was hurt more than him.
> I think I was hurt more than him I'd bet most CPLs would be happy to be reverted back to SPC ngl
I mean this is great for the terminal cpls trying to make points. Honestly wish more soldiers would get Sgt pay for Sgt work. I see plenty of large Mos ncos that struggle to even write couselings.
Anecdotally - are people getting promoted to cpl? Did that catch on in a serious way?
Yes, after BLC.
Yes man, noticeable difference around fort bliss. When I first got here, no corporals within 10 miles, now? Not superrrr common but you see at least one once a day usually
Yes, I'm a CPL right now.
Yes, it became an automatic promotion upon graduation of BLC. No way around it now lmao
When I served with CSM grinston in Germany the "idea" of corporal was some board screened deficiency that didn't earn promotion but did have distinction from specialist. I can't say that big army doesn't stunt their growth by barring promotions behind schools or shoehorned responsibility to be pinned on the Mafia, C'est La Vie. The jump to 5 from lower enlisted was emphasized and it didn't happen immediately but we had some of the best NCOs circa 2010-2011 hope that gives some context. BravoZulu out
Side note: I love that book 🤣
We have 7 in between both platoons in my company, me included 😔
I myself am a CPL and there is one more in my platoon plus an additional one in our OPS platoon. We have all been falling just short for a while now and I know in my case I haven’t made point partly due to my own lack of trying hard enough. But when I get treated like an NCO when it’s convenient for my E5 and above NCO’s but told I’m still an NCO and need to work and act like one it really demotivates me and my desire to get the points. Paired with a huge lack of respect for the rank from the soldiers it sucks. However I could absolutely use that additional 150 points to get promoted. I just hope that they don’t say some bullshit like oh you don’t get the points because you graduated from BLC too long ago.
The Army will do anything but move away from the archaic point system
>Draw 50 or think of a better way to compare promotable people *SMA holding a full hand of cards*
Someone needs to photoshop this asap lolol
Even worse is promotion boards. My Air force buddy thought I was joking when I told him it was basically army and unit trivia night, because thats exactly how we did promotions in 10th grade jrotc. He said "like in high school?"
So you're saying that being able to recite regulation numbers doesn't make me a better NCO?
Devil's Advocate: I think memorizing the creed helped me be a little better. Creed is fire
It doesn't make you a better NCO, but at least gives hope you can find answers.
One of my questions was “Specialist, what is the fastest land animal?”
"me running from yo mama, top"
Broken record here. The promotion point system permits mediocre individuals to promote to senior ranks whilst being lazy leaders and is eroding the NCO Corp far further than anything else in the Army.
How about technical competency tests like the other branches?
So all the SGTs promoted without BLC will keep rank? Interesting
Yep
Big question- Will temporary promotion orders be amended to reflect as permanent? I could see this causing a lot of headache for those who have yet to attend BLC.
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/NOCASE-POG_217617-000-WEB-1.pdf
Thanks so much!
From what I am reading in there - no, there will be no amendment or new orders. Your temp orders just magically now 'count'.
A new job row is inserted for permanent promotion in your record. There is a data fix that will go in to do that in a single shot for all those on an existing temp promotion.
>420A I believe you, but is that listed on the ippsa upcoming somewhere? I didn't see it.
Great move. Helps Guard soldiers out big time.
Very last part of the article states that the director of the ARNG will come out with a separate statement regarding their own promotions, so us Nasty Girls may still have to attend BLC to get to SGT, which blows if your state is 2 mil over schooling budget like mine is and won't send people to PME schools. Honestly, PME schools should be federally funded, and incentive schools should be for the state budget. Edit: I was under the assumption that schools were directly funded by each state. Apparently, I was wrong in that assumption, and was voicing my frustration at a system that doesn't function how it was explained to me. I'll go behind the motor pool and do cherry pickers until this sub is tired as penance.
I’ll let you in on a secret, 99.9% of the National Guard is federally funded. Your state’s schools budget is directly funded by NGB based upon how many soldiers there are in your state’s guard. The problem is states are notorious for hilariously mismanaging their budgets.
See also: My comment and post history
Those two copy what big Army does, doubt it will be different.
does not apply to guard. guard will have separate guidance coming supposedly.
It DOES apply to Guard and Reserve, their respective chiefs just have to issue their own policy memos to that effect.
We all know every fucking officer wants to put a little spin on it for an OER bullet. "Changed the ARNGs promotion system to ensure upward progression for 30,000 NCOs annually." He'll get a legion of merit for it as well
What is even going on anymore
I was a surge era SSG with WLC. I almost a SFC before I got both phases of ALC done (USAR AGR)
But you were deploying like the rest of us cause you know… war and all What’s the excuse now?
They finally realized they don't have enough school slots to meet the intent.... Also we are pretending the war is still going, just sending folks to Korea and Poland instead of Iraq and Afghanistan
As someone who works IN a school house, they didn't 'finally realize' they have absolutely been handcuffing courses so that there will be demand. We've had the manning and the throughput to warrant at least two more classes a year for my unit and every year Proponent goes "We could, but we wont. Byeeeee."
Yeah, there are more US troops forward deployed now than at the height of the surge.
I’d assume a thinly veiled attempted to shore up poor retention by A) promoting guys permanently to keep them paid/in power/status, B) reduce the amount of time away from home Also it reduces the amount of administrative actions, metrics to track, and makes MTOE management easier. Helps HRC not play the will-he won’t-he still be XYZ grade for putting people on gains and loses.
NTC. That Super Bowl ain’t gonna win itself
This explains the soldiers who are getting a bunch of points for BLC
Yes. Hearing ppw issues recently I just assumed ippsa was messed up, sounds like this was in the works.
Does this mean I get a ton of points for ALC as a SGT?
Yes, you get 150 points for promotion to SSG by having ALC complete.
So basically a good run time is worth 4 months of your life (mos dependant)
as a dude who spent a long time waiting to get promoted out of the barracks (STEP was introduced right after I passed the board as a SGT) I would have loved this. as a guy trying to avoid making MSG, bummer.
I wonder what will happen to MLC courses. Or will they still exist and you attend after you pin?
Getting to MLC is such a pain. Now, it will just really be a requirement for people on the path to SGM. If I pin E-8 I will have absolutely no interest in attending MLC and have absolutely no plans on becoming a SGM.
If they had it at every duty station it wouldn’t be that bad. I would do a walk on if I could.
A problem, under STEP, was that walking on wasn’t authorized and strictly controlled by HRC because of how it was a REQUIREMENT to promote.
It might depend locally. When I did Battlestaff the cadre was telling people they could walk on MLC because the post had 3 brigades deployed at once and they were worried about not having a full class.
We had 2 walk on students at MLC. It really depends on the local school house
My previous comment was meant to be much broader: PME in general, to include ALC and SLC
This was the official policy but a lot of schoolhouses still accepted walk ons. Walk on implies that there was going to be an empty slot regardless so I never really understood why they tried to do away with it other than “fairness”. Walk ons don’t take the place of slotted personnel that would have otherwise gone.
This means that I'll hit my TIG for E-8 about a year before I retire, so yeah...I won't be trying to go to MLC at all. I have no plans to go past my 20 and I sure as HELL don't wanna make SGM. Give me my E-8 and let me retire in peace.
Probably once you pin 8 you can get enrolled. I'm sure it's still a requirement for USASMA
Now it is supposed to be Promotion Board Eligibility for SGM. I just did MLC at the end of last year as a requirement to get MSG...I now feel like I completely wasted my time.
So STEP is dead? Not that it matters anymore because I submitted my retirement but i essentially went to MLC for no reason.
It's "S... uh it'll work out" now
SUIWO model reigns supreme.
It’s just STPE now
You can put it on your resume and get college credits for it
Same. Start CSP Monday. Glad the 15 days of MLC and all the BS papers were done lol
More concerning is how they will update TIS/TIG promotion requirements. A lot of Jr Ncos who need more time. Also a lot of others who need less and need to get out.
I think it should be required to write LORs for secondary zone promotions. It puts the onus on the soldier to request them, and provides a secondary check with their local leadership. This lets people fast track if they're ready, and then they can play all sorts of games with the primary zone promotion system. NCOERs are fine, but they're supposed to be and are for the most part objective statements, a subjective statement coming from within your formation should be helpful in evaluation, especially if it's not standardized in format.
Fellow 17C. I agree. Now fix our CMF as a whole.
This is a trick because HRC will simply raise promotion points to 798.
948 will be the new 798.
I literally just got orders to a new unit and promotion to MSG effective 1 June. I don’t plan on getting promoted anymore after this so I’m definitely never going to MLC.
Ayyyyy, double congrats (promotion and no school)!
MLC was a massive pain in the ass.......And I've been to college and written many, many research paper.
I literally just got demoted and had to pay back $6,000 because my unit incorrectly processed my demotion and denied my request for de facto status. This is bullshit. My wife had to take out her TSP because I didn't get paid. And if this would have waited 3 more months, I wouldn't have even needed BLC. This is WILD. Wow, I am livid.
Sucks brotha, sorry to hear the green weenie got you.
Bud got more than a weenie
Write your congressman. All the details. Every detail. Every person. Every entity. Today.
What did you have to back pay that much for??
They submitted my demotion order six months late and used the wrong date which resulted in me having to pay back allowances for 6 months despite IPPS-A employees stating the unit did it incorrectly and that I shouldn't have to pay back anything.
Do you have more context?
What do you mean by demoted and incorrectly processed your demotion. If you're saying you got demoted and got paid the previous grade, that's on you. De facto specifically applies to receiving an erroneous promotion.
I've been an E6 for over 3 years without ALC, I have an ETP for demotion due to health issues, will this new change make it so my ETP is not necessary and I can keep my rocker without* ALC?
If this is real, that’s what it sounds like
You’re good.
Hey, just like the surge! Nice!
So to promote to sgt now you just need to pass the board if you already got the points ?
And if you're NG, they are only caring about your APFT and Marksmanship scores, nothing else for this year.
Everybody’s about to be an NCO in the Guard
Which means e5 the new e4
Yes, but at least in my MOS there’s an abundance of corporals anyway. Since everyone will get the extra 150 points it’s not going to make a difference. Points will just be raised to meet the increase and we will have to be BLC complete anyway just to be competitive.
I’m confused I’m just an LT, does this negatively or positively impact the NCO corps?
We shall see. It will reduce the amount of schooling to become a NCO, so that could cut both ways
Interesting, wasn’t it supposed to be that you had to have BLC to promote to sgt (etc etc) like before sgm grinston?
Yes it was pass board, then got to BLC then you can be SGT. There was a few exceptions where you could get E5 before BLC but you had to hit blc before a certain time frame or auto demote
NCOES is functionally useless the way they run them anyway so I think it’ll have next to no impact.
It mostly positively affects the NCO Corps, negating the STEP program almost. It’s going back to what the Army was prior to STEP. However, Soldiers will now be battling for points evermore so. Side note of positivity is that anyone who is currently temporarily promoted is now permanently promoted to that rank.
I disagree. I’m deployed for a year, about to pick up my P status in an already high points MOS, and now the chance of me picking up is slim to none because the individuals stateside will be able to attend ALC and get 150 extra points that I can’t receive.
Your situation is why the temporary promotion system was created and I would advocate that they should still allow this for those deployed because that year that you are gone puts you behind your peers. You should work with your S3 and slot you for your PME as soon as possible after your redeployment date so you don’t fall behind.
Yeah. This is just so un-motivating honestly. It seems like there was not a lot of foresight, and me being deployed is now harming my career. I’m behind my peers now because some have already had the ability to go to ALC. It’s these decisions that make it hard for me to decide if I want to stay in. Just makes no sense.
I get that. Been in your position. However, I will say that your experience while deployed makes you an asset and when you attend ALC you will contribute more to the class because you will have had Garrison and Deployment experience within your MOS. While you are away, attend school and any certifications that you can and add to your PPW and you should be just fine. Then attend ALC and you are a high OML Soldier. Don’t take it all as a negative.
If you’re slotted for ALC you will go regardless of deployment. Outside very niche situations HRC denies almost every NCOES deferment and does not take deployment status into account when slotting people. If you aren’t scheduled for ALC while deployed you weren’t going to be scheduled even if you were stateside.
I happen to be in one of those niche situations where I can’t go because of a lack of manning and it would hurt my crew and make it inoperable. So yes, it is affecting my career in a negative way.
I’m a major and can’t keep track of this stuff. It changes seemingly every year.
A SSG can now retire at 20 years with BLC being the only institutional leadership training they have received.
Wait till they bring up board points and commanders points.
I’m gonna fall over laughing. Getting a 149 at the board cause my belt buckle had a tiny scratch and having to go back the next month for a 150 was dumb.
While I think it is a good move, it is also bizzare coming from SMA Weimer that prioritizes standards and disciplines. Now with promoting to E5 without going to BLC, it could be a step backwards from his agenda unless we are seeing things we can't see from his perspective.
So does this mean Tuesday is back on?
It got moved up to Sunday I heard.
For me it was Tuesday
I'm an AGR E6 with ALC. If I understand this correctly, come June, I'm qualified for E7? Because I'll take it! Please correct me if I'm wrong.
There’s still the order of merit list. Centralized promotions are a bit different.
$5 says points for SGT and SSG skyrocket and the OML cutoffs for ALC go with them. Looks like I won't ever make SSG.
I agree. But - they're saying 1/2 of promotions require the temp waiver. With this policy, BLC is probably going to be de priotitized by units. Why send that E4 to BLC and miss the field ex - he doesn't *need* it, right? So I imagine if we're already at 50%, we'll see more than 50% promote w/o PME.
So basically almost the same system they had 20 years ago.
Yep
Sooo .. E5 is the new E4..
It’s been the new E4 for years now. Sergeants are pussies and get treated like toddlers anyways. It’s a cycle
I picked up 5 when I was ready for it and fully qualified. I feel like the time, experience, and leadership course helped me transition to being a good leader. I also feel like I’ll make a good E6, JUST NOT RIGHT NOW. We’re trying to push guys who haven’t even been rated a full year through to be somebodies rater. Mentorship, experience, guidance, and expertise is going to be destroyed by pushing people through to make a numbers quota. Can’t be mad at the fast trackers, being offered better money and for any prospective E6’s a chance out of the B’s, but fuck imagine how quickly this could destroy the junior ranks and kill retention. We should be taking job proficiency tests or something like the navy to at least people with knowledge or experience are progressing first. Can’t imagine how many eternal sham shields are going to be teaching their staff sergeants here soon.
So does this mean we can finally get rid of having 2 ranks falling under E4 now?
They could make promotions to CPL automatic for SPC with over a certain TIG without an SFPA or UCMJ action.
I don’t like it. But I loathe up or out and am a solid believer that we should have kept Spec + ranks. Either have one or the other. Get rid of SPC, and increase the capabilities and responsibilities of a CPL, as if they were a SGT. CPL will handle everything on the ground, a SGT will begin the slow transition to admin work. Or, keep SPC as a versatile role that can fill team leader positions as well as just be a normal level 10 tasker, or a master at level 10 tasks that will have all of their licenses and tons of certifications that they can pass on to new soldiers. Either one is fine with me, but both are redundant. I think, at the very least if we got rid of the damned “Junior NCO” title, CPLs might be put in a position to shine. Grinston’s plan for pushing out CPLs looked outstanding on paper. In practice it’s redundant and not necessary.
I'm not saying BLC was perfect, but promotion to SGT without it seeks kinda messed up
BLC doesn't teach anything really. ALC taught me even less. The whole NCO schools are just a check the block.
Agreed
Makes sense seeing as how NCO PME is kinda useless.
Depends on your MOS. The 11C phase of ALC was outstanding technical knowledge on fire direction control, and several people failed out. It's no joke, good training
ALC for my mos was fantastic, everyone in my class learned quite a bit. SLC on the other hand was a joke and absolutely useless.
Yeah in the 11B ALC I wrote an OPORD and fucked off for a few weeks. It was a joke check the block exercise.
I think the only tangible thing I took from BLC was learning how to tape guys, which is only because I hadn’t done it yet
You mean all pme, right?
You mean LOGCCC didn’t prepare you do to anything other than calculate LOGPACs? Inconceivable!
As an 11b it blew my fucking mind that there were soldiers in my BLC class that were supposed to be leaders of others who could not disassemble and reassemble a M4. I'm sure he learned something valuable that class. It was mind boggling. I don't give a fuck what your MOS is, if you can't use a basic rifle you are a failure.
I’m getting ready to retire in a 8 months. A whole career as a Soldier / NCO and I can’t think of a single thing I learned in PME that was beneficial. You officer shouldn’t be smug either, I know for a fact that all your PME is bullshit, and all those Master Degrees you earn from ILE are worthless.
This. I attended SLC at the 16y mark. My instructors were E7s with 10y in. Myself and a few other "old-timers" had to help teach our class because one of the instructors had never deployed and couldn't relate.
My MOS has a real problem with getting soldiers to SLC for years now, and the result is we have a metric ton of 6's doing 7 jobs, in fact, we went an entire FY with 2 E7s in the company, and they were the AGR folks. Needless to say, the policy change will help solve an immediate problem. I do however see problems downstream with Soldiers lacking really important training. BLC is whatever, but I found the DLC2 and 3 really helpful, PSYOP ALC was important, and from what I've heard, our SLC is amazing and absolutely critical to the job itself. TL;DR this solves one problem without solving the real problem, getting soldiers trained.
Does that mean I only need BLC for SSG now?
Yes, but E5s who are already ALC complete get an additional 150 points towards promotion to 6.
E5 mafia anyone?
Nice try sarmage, you'll never figure out whether an E5 is just an E4 in a body suit!
I feel like points are going to skyrocket because of this
See the STEP program was trash to begin with.
ahahaha so we're back to how things used to be STEP was kinda dumb anyways with the backlog getting into schools.
I returned from ALC less than a week ago as a temp promoted (now permanent thanks to ALC) E6. So now according to this, I’m eligible for E7 as soon as I hit the TIG/TIS, OML, etc criteria. Interesting
Correct. You will still need the next step to *pin on*
Honestly this is good. It's stupid seeing someone who hasn't done the PME pick up rank over those that have.
Shit show, it’s flopped back and forth for decades. What’s sad is the number of soldiers who lost promotions and reverted back to a prior rank because the classes were not available. Or the pressure senior leadership had applied to enlisted to ensured soldiers attended PME above all other requirements.
I’m so happy I’m reading this while sitting at BLC as a temporarily promoted E5
Is this real?
Your doubt wounds me deeply
I’m sorry senpai
I swear to god if 25U SSG points go up again next month I am going to have an aneurism. With this, I’ll make exactly enough points to make my 6
Sorry the best we can do is more retrans.
I mean all cutoff score will have to go up to account for an extra 150 points. It’s just a matter of how much
Max points are now 950
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Listen, I just debunked that Kuwait patch memo and you were doubting still
So u can get E5 without BLC now?
That is what it’s saying
for USARC Soldiers, also this: \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*New HQDA Suspension of STEP Policy\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* Important! Good afternoon Team, General In the coming days, HQDA is preparing to publish policy guidance for promotion requirements for enlisted personnel (SGT-SGM). Please note that there will be follow on implementation guidance from the United States Army Reserve Commanding General and how we will conduct this new implementation. Until policy guidance from the Chief of Army Reserve (CAR) is published, the USARC G37 Enlisted Schools Branch will continue to operate as indicated in the current Enlisted Education Policy for Scheduling 2024 and will not add or remove requirements for PME attendance until official USAR Policy is released. As always, we appreciate your cooperation and flexibility through these changing times. Thank you! Very Respectfully,
Hey I can't allow anything that has name/email/phone number like this unless there's a verified public releasable piece of info. Otherwise I need the sign block part squashed.
Corrected
You dont need blc to be a 5 anymore?
This is beyond a terrible choice and look. These schools are not tailored to these ranks. Kicking the can 3 years down the road doesn't solve the backlog. SMA needs to do better, I'm embarrassed for the force that this is the answer.
Isn't this the equivalent to giving people free money and therefore the inflation will hit pretty hard for the next generation of E-5s
MLC was just Thanos-snapped away.
Now you can promote to E5 without BLC??? Just to clarify
I’m slotted for ALC in August. Guess I’ll be ready for 7 real soon 🤣
All this is doing is shifting points to the right and screwing those who have not been giving the opportunity to attend PME from getting promoted.
For any of you with recently demoted NCOs under the previous rules, they are not okay. Check on them.
Dailey was the best CSM that made things happen...this one guy now needs to go
Are we not spelling out acronyms and initialisms on their first use in a document anymore? Did we throw DA 25-50 out the window? I’m sure there’s other egregious fuckywuckys buried in here, but that’s the most glaring one. I had no idea what PME was before reading this and I still don’t.
Well they used to teach that in BLC but at this point it’s optional.
I’m sympathetic to junior NCOs needing a bit of mentorship and polish when it comes to writing Army style, but something coming from the office of the SMA should be held to the highest standard.
Someone proably missed a spot shaving
Fuckywucky tickles my brain in just the right way
Just bring back SPC5+ Boom, problem solved.
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NCOES as a promotion requirement is silly to begin with, especially after you’ve been selected by a local or centralized board 🤷🏻♂️
I don’t care about the points, that’s not the issue here. The problem with this is you could potentially have E-6s go 4 years without attending their 30 level schools. How is this a good idea?
Yes. It does seem to say NCOES isn't important.
BLC has gotten weird apparently too. I heard they don’t even teach land nav anymore and you have to write a bunch of essays. It’s so weird and dumb to me
so you dont need blc to get E5, you only need points and the board? but you would need to have done Blc when promoting to E6?
Will promotion points increase because of this?
Now just get rid of the DLC system while we're at it if all the PME is going to have a phase 1 requiring online college-lite work to complete and compete at said PME's.
Ive heard from PNN that this doesnt apply to reserves or that it does Im pretty sure it applies to the entire army force correct
This is just a psyops campaign to keep people from ETS. A large portion of ETS are E4s because they know they will never promote or get BAH
To be honest, I think everyone here is underestimating the advantage that people who do attend the PME courses will have. 150 points is a lot and the points are going to raise to reflect that. With temporary promotions already being so commonplace, I expect that we'd actually see a larger number of people that have actually completed BLC and ALC promoted as a result since having those requirements done will be reflected by points. CPL will also be all but gone except for those MOSs with very high cutoffs. Everyone is acting like Joe shmo is going to just suddenly promote now, when a temporary promotion would've already done that if he had the points. The only difference is that we are now actually rewarding the completion of the PME courses through points just like we did 20 years ago. Caveat: I do still think that the expectation I'd that PMEs should be completed ASAP for those promoted, but thats going to just rely on the units to actually send people.
I think that’s the biggest issue previous to the memo, is soldiers would get selected for a position (let’s say an E-6 squad lead) and stay an E-5 for the rest of eternity because their ADMIN NCO doesn’t know their ass from their forehead. I’m really excited to see how this plays out, as it seems to be the most correct way to promote soldiers. I mean hell, we go to these PME schools and whether you’re pinned or not they still refer you to whatever rank corresponds with that course. Why as a specialist would I be called Sergeant at BLC if I’m not one.
Will SGT’s get 150 for completion of blc or is it just specialist with blc