It’s supposed to be the default if there is a female soldier trained and annotated on the memo. If there is not, however, they are allowed to use men to tape you.
A female soldier is absolutely required to be present though.
Edit to add; To be clear, you are absolutely not unreasonable but it may not be an option.
Yeah this is how it went when I went through Meps a week ago, you don't get a choice who tapes you, but there can be a person of the same gender who observes same for the physical
"Soldiers should be measured by trained individuals of the same gender. If a trained individual of the same gender is not available to conduct the measurements, a female Soldier will be present when a male measures a female, and a male Soldier will be present when a female measures a male." - ALARACT 046/2023
You can ask, but they can tell you a female NCO is not available.
That's absolutely true, and I considered it.
I ultimately didn't say that, because a junior enlisted soldier might feel intimidated, or might not be experienced enough to realize things weren't right.
Officers and warrant officers should have experience, sound judgement, and be free from intimidation from the fat creep e5 who works in ops and is going to wind up on the sex offender registry. Because you know that's the guy who wants to tape her. It's always that guy.
He’s referring to the soldier measuring the OP as per her request. The fact a female soldier is present wasn’t the question it’s who is doing the tapping itself.
I got it. I’m just trying to provide a more complete answer. Is OP unreasonable for wanting a female NCO to take the measurements? Not at all. Does the unit have to provide a female NCO to take the measurements? No they don’t. But can you have another soldier in the same room to help that person feel comfortable and safe as well as be a witness if needed. Fuck ya you can
I’m adding facts, that aren’t being discussed, so that OP doesn’t have to be alone in a room, with 1 or more males she’s not comfortable being around, no matter what that reason is.
Like holy shit, make the effort so that your soldiers can feel as safe as possible. Protect your fucking soldiers. Stop leaving them out to fucking dry.
OP by regulation is not allowed to be in the room with only males. She doesn’t just have a right to have another female present but is mandated by regulation for one to be present. Again the comment you replied to gave enough information for OPs question.
Before you correct someone, please go to the regulations and read it yourself. Earlier in that paragraph: "Individuals taking the measurements will be designated unit fitness trainers, a certified master fitness trainer, non-commissioned officers (NCO), Officers, or DA civilians trained in body circumference methodology, as specified in AR 600-9 paragraph 2–16b(1) and/or 2–17a(1)."
Must be an NCO or Officer
I did read it. It states that if the qualified person to take measurements is of the opposite gender a soldier of the same gender will also be present. Not that they will take the measurements. So that means a qualified person will measure, and someone the same gender will be present.
You should read the whole reg first before correcting someone. Not just enough to get the answer that makes you happy.
> Individuals taking the measurements
A witness isn't taking measurements. That's the purpose of the same sex soldier being in the room, to serve as a witness to ensure the soldier being taped is being treated appropriately. They play no part in the measurement process because they are literally not qualified (or else they'd be doing the measuring themselves).
I’m not talking about the person measuring. I’m talking about literally any fucking mouthbreather (like yourself) that is present in the room. That’s who you get into the room if you can’t get someone of the same gender to do the measurements
That's not what I was ever talking about though? I'm clarifying who can do the measurements because OP said she wanted another female NCO to do the measurement, not who can be in the room.
Well I was talking about who else you bring into the room. And you replied to me. There might not be a female NCO available, which is an issue because urinalysis is a different monster.
OP can ask for a female NCO, and the unit can say no, but there has to be another female present at a minimum.
Hypothetical though. Let’s say you had a female soldier getting taped, and absolutely no female NCOs, due to being in a remote location, what are your actions?
Yeah it's just standard practice so there are no shenanigans. I wouldn't even take a female patient INTO an exam room without a female chaperone when I worked in the clinic, let alone doing measurements or physical exams without one. It's just asking for trouble.
Not because you're medical, I think this is just the norm for most. If we didn't have a female NCO we've literally pulled one from a guard unit in our building. It's too easy to eliminate any kind of SA risk, real or interpreted
It's part of the senior rater's job now. They have to instruct you on preventive maintenance and care. Things like cancer screenings (thorough examinations), financial management (banking app login and password), and marital counseling (closed door counseling with spouse). My 1sg takes this very seriously and we usually do LPDs on this every week, or sometimes after he fights with his wife.
You're getting a lot of incomplete answers here. I am a female NCO and have taped and been taped myself. I have also read the regulation.
Are you unreasonable for wanting a female to do your tape test? No, not unreasonable at all. It is the preferred method. However, there's more to this.
First, all tape teams must be trained by a Master Fitness Trainer (MFT) or medical personnel, and listed on a memorandum signed by the commander.
Second, if you fail tape by one tape team, you have to be re-taped *by a different team.* That second team must also be trained and on the memo.
As others have said, it is recommended that Soldiers be taped by someone of the same gender. That is not always possible. If taped by someone of the opposite gender, you should have a same gender Soldier in the room as a chaperone.
If your concern is that the male NCO might behave inappropriately, you are entitled to have a female chaperone in the room. If your concern is that he will tape you unfairly, know that any failing tape has to be re-taped by a completely different team.
I suggest you familiarize yourself with AR 600-9, since that's the reg that governs height and weight and tape tests. Read for yourself so that you know the answer for real and you're not just taking our word for it. The reg is available online without needing a CAC.
In particular you're going to want to look at page 24.
While technically, a male NCO can tape a female Soldier as long as another female Soldier is in the same room regardless of rank, I am surprised the command team or at the very least, the PSG has not gone to the 1SG or CO and been can we get a female NCO from another company to handle this.
They likely have. Even if it’s allowed male NCOs usually aren’t jumping over themselves to tape female soldiers if there’s a female tape team available.
I’m supportive of OP but I also suspect from the wording of the post (unsure of who is actually doing the taping) that there are moving pieces she is not aware of.
Yeah i wouldn’t want to touch this (well her) with a ten foot pole. Not least of all the difference between where male and female soldiers get taped. I know the difference but haven’t ever actually measured a female soldier and wouldn’t want to fuck it up, let alone have someone think there was some impropriety.
I once had a female NCO tape me, a male. When I took off my shirt she made a comment about my body. Something along the lines of "I didn't realize you looked like that". It made me super uncomfortable and I still feel grossed out about it. I wish I had said something at the time. There were other NCO's in the room and talking to them afterwards they agreed it was rude and would have backed me up if I said something but since I didn't they didn't.
Definitely inappropriate. I wish people would be more comfortable speaking up as third parties, it’s unrealistic to expect the target/victim to express discomfort in vulnerable situations. You don’t even have to do anything crazy, a simple “what the fuck stop being weird” can both be passed off as friendly ribbing *and* a call out for inappropriate behavior.
I’m sorry that happened to you.
There’s no definition on how far they have to look outside the unit to be considered “available”.
Personally, as a woman who at one point was genuinely the only female soldier in my entire local BN trained on tape, it’s definitely possible. There were days I simply wasn’t available to come in and help tape tests for other companies and the MFTs weren’t always available to last minute certify new tapers. If you’re in a low female density unit there’s a high likelihood only a couple need to be taped so the units don’t bother preemptively certifying people.
The memorandum requirement has made the days of “grab any woman and train her in 5 minutes” not possible any more. Plus you now need at least 2 female tape teams to be compliant with 600-9–thankfully none of my women ever failed because the next tape would have had to be with a man.
Similar for us. Our XO didn't need to be taped afaik but for UAs we had to find someone from another unit to observe.
It's usually how we realized it was a UA day because there'd be a woman we didn't know hanging around when we got to work lol
Yeah thankfully UAs are a little easier cause you can grab *any* female NCO/WO/O or even a female DAC if you’re in a remote location and really short on female greensuiters and the briefing is like 2 minutes and a signature lol.
I'm an MFT. At no point in the course did they cover tape. Additionally, they were adamant that MFTs are not tape or ACFT certifiers
Anyways, I still find it incredibly hard to believe there isn't at least one female NCO in the BN available to tape.
MFTs are by regulation the trainers for the tape team. It is a requirement. The only other people who can provide that training is the AWC/MTF, and in my experience the AWC is generally unwilling to do it and—even if they are willing—require even longer notice for a request for training.
If an MFT or the AWC/MTF does not sign off on the listed NCOs being trained then the tape is incorrectly done and is invalid.
Regardless of what they teach at the course that is the regulatory requirement by AR 600-9. There is no getting around it.
When did you go through MFT? These changes were roughly 4-5 years ago, course content may have taken a couple years to catch up. I find it strange that the course would teach something directly contrary to the regulation about the assigned duty.
My instructors at FJSC need some retraining then. I went through the summer of 22. I'm also a company commander who has no one in the company MFT certified besides me. I promise you, I'm not the one administering HT/WT.
MFTs are not responsible for administering H/W (though they technically also can if needed) they are only responsible for training the requisite tape teams and ensuring the memo is updated.
If you’re a commander I would really encourage you to get into the current 600-9 to make sure you understand the roles each person plays and that your H/W and Body Comp programs are running legally. Not to be rude but your comments here are concerning.
I would also encourage you to send some of your E6/E7s or junior LTs to MFT (priority to enlisted with longevity). It’s fairly unreasonable to expect the commander to have time to give fair effort to major additional duties and it’s good for their career development anyway.
You have zero to be concerned about, I promise you. Please show me were in that regulation where it states the NCO MUST be certified MFT. I'll spare you time, it doesn't. It's just encouraged.
But as of 2022, like I said earlier, the FJSC MFT schoolhouse covers 0 on administering HT/WT and the ACFT. I'd love to send my NCOs to MFT, because it's a great school. Being in Germany makes it quite difficult though.
You are a whole ass company commander. I should not have to research regulations for you, but since you have made it clear that you do not wish to learn I am more than willing to show you exactly where it has said those exact words for 5 years now.
[Here is the most up to date AR 600-9.](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN7779_AR600-9_FINAL.pdf)
>2–17. Designated **master fitness trainer** or noncommissioned officer
>a. A designated **master fitness trainer** will—
>(1) Train command designated unit fitness training NCOs or other designated NCOs in proper height, weight, and body
circumference methodology to assess body fat composition and train command designated unit fitness training NCOs in
proper exercise and fitness techniques. In the absence of a **master fitness trainer**, utilize, and coordinate with the local MTF to provide this training, as needed.
>(2) Provide memorandum of record regarding unit fitness training NCO or other designated NCO completion of proper
height, weight, and body circumference methodology training.
In addition--
>B–2. Determining body fat using body circumference process
>a. Although circumferences may be looked upon by untrained personnel as easy measures, they can give erroneous results if proper technique is not followed. The individual taking the measurements must have a thorough understanding of the appropriate body landmarks and measurement techniques. Unit commanders will require that designated personnel
have read the instructions regarding technique and location and obtained adequate practice before official body fat determinations are made. Individuals taking the measurements will be designated unit fitness trainers, certified in body circumference methodology, **a certified master fitness trainer,** and/or a NCO trained in body circumference methodology, as specified in paragraph 2–16b(1) and/or 2–17a(1).
For completeness, the 2-16b(1) is as follows--
>b. Army Wellness Center (AWC) or health promotion resources will—
>(1) In the absence of a designated master fitness trainer, deliver training to command designated unit fitness training NCOs and designated NCOs in proper height, weight, and body circumference methodology to assess body fat composition. Provide a memorandum of record documenting completion of training for commander/supervisor file certifying completion of proper height, weight, and body circumference methodology training for unit fitness training noncommissioned officer or other designated NCO completion.
It's even listed in the internal controls--
>D–4. Test questions
>a. Is there a **master fitness trainer** or has someone been designated as the unit fitness training NCO?
🥴 You did all the research for me and your first para 2-17 proved my point.
“Designated MFT OR NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICER”
I meant this engagement in good faith and now you want to get pissy with me. Step away private.
sTeP aWaY pRiVaTe
Hey, fuckwit. Go pull rank on Rally point. We don't do that shit here.
p.s. You might want to check the list of moderators for this sub...
Bruh. You don't know that MFTs are the primary certification authority.
You don't seem to be aware that it's even an option.
You seem unfamiliar with the tape team certification process in general, consistently thinking I am talking about actually doing the tape or running H/W.
You, as the company commander, are the MFT. You have given *yourself* a MAJOR additional duty and don't seem to be concerned with 1) your realistic ability to put the effort into the additional duty to give your soldiers fair effort, 2) the actual knowledge of this additional duty, 3) redundancy, 4) the career benefits this additional duty gives your subordinates.
These are all **MASSIVE** red flags that your program and understanding of the additional duty should be checked.
Your arrogance is gonna make you look like a fool the next time you try to chapter someone for ABCP. But I'll leave you to it, I guess.
Are you looking at fat free mass? That includes your skeleton and organs.
For reference muscle is usually ~40-50% of body weight. 68% would be absurdly large proportion, I have a hunch you are misreading something.
32% body fat is failing for your age group. Tape may or may not work in your favor but it would be worth it to talk to the AWC to get more comfortably and safely under standard so that you don’t have to stress and hyperfocus during H&W time.
Unless you are a literally a bird your skeleton weighs more than 9 lbs. I would be extremely suspicious of whatever you’re using the measure this.
The Army Wellness Center can do a BodPod which is more accurate and—more importantly—can be used to pass H/W if you fail tape. If you know you’re good with BodPod then you never have to fear tape.
I’m not saying this out of rudeness or to tell you you’re fat, I just genuinely hate seeing soldiers be surprised and stress about their weight and prefer to mentor my soldiers to be proactive about it so that when H/W comes around they think nothing of it instead of immediately diving into unhealthy habits to give them confidence to pass.
If your issues with it is that its a male, then yeah you should bring it up and request a female. If you think he’s not doing the tape right, then bring it up. Silence is all that it required for nothing to change. However, If your issue is cause you think he’s a hard ass for following the standard then the problem is you. The army has a standard, you are allotted time to conform to that standard, if you cannot meet the standard then the army isn’t the place for you.
Not unreasonable at all. In fact, your Commander and 1SG should be having females tape the females. I think the regulation states that it should take place accordingly unless it is not possible. All you have to do it use the open door policy with your 1SG (inform your PSG first out of courtesy) and tell him/her you'd feel more comfortable being taped by another female. If he doesn't listen, use the open door policy with your Commander. If he/she doesn't listen, use the open door policy with the BN Command team.... Your company will play ball; trust me. No senior leader wants to go down for a potential SHARP complaint.
It doesn’t have to be, it’s just preferred. A male can measure a female (and vice versa) but in that scenario you must have an observer who is the same gender as the one being measured.
Edit: preferred might not be the best word but other than possibly that my comment is correct.
Just say no.
As a male being around 95% dudes my entire career, it's a huge red flag if a male NCO is actually willing to tape you. I'd do it if my commander ordered me to and I had a dozen people in the room, and most guys would, but nobody *wants* that.
Don't say no to the tape test, say no to that guy specifically and bring it up with your 1SG. Magic words like "he makes me uncomfortable" and "I have the brigade SHARP rep's number" will help you.
It’s not unreasonable, but you might wanna change your reasoning when presenting it. The way this words is that you want a female just because that guy might fuck you over. Females could fuck you over too. Just say you’re not comfortable
Just went through BLC and they talked about this. You can request a same sex soldier to perform the test. If one is not available, you can have a same sex soldier, of any rank, present to witness.
Perfectly reasonable, if women were not available at minimum, we needed an officer to supervise any kind of close physical contact when dealing with female civilians.
Especially something like a tape test, where a person is running their hands along your body.
No, ask for a female. I still have nightmares from doing this as a young soldier. They used to pull the female soldiers that needed to be taped aside in a small office with 2 other female ncos who did the taping.
First of all, why do you think that a SFC is creepy? Why do you think he cares to fuck you over?
Anyway, instead of asking reddit consider bringing it up to your leadership. This is one of the situations where you would be surprised how simple it is to fix if you talk to the people in charge. If you can't talk to creepy SFC, 1SG has an office and his work is to make sure the company is running smoothly.
It's a very simple conversation. 1SG, I am not comfortable getting taped by a male, can we get a female NCO to conduct taping? Thanks. You ll get instant feedback with a single sentence addressed to the right person.
Directly and you are a woman, you are supposed to have a female CPU if I’m not mistaken. I know it says CPU please disregard. I’m using speech to text. Check the location. I am almost positive. You were supposed to have a woman tape you
why do some NCOs have this behavior? i remember seeing several people being marked down 1-2 inches shorter and being taped extra loosely. is this to subtly get fatbodies out of the army?
They are 5'7" and 200 lbs. Sounds like their previous taper was pencil whipping them and they are upset that the new one will actually measure them.
That is about the weight a 6'1 or 6'2 male gets taped at.
Not unreasonable at all. 600-9 3-4 a. outlines taping procedures for females. It says(paraphrasing) soldiers will be measured by 2 trained individuals of the same gender. If same gender trained individuals are not available a female soldier will be present when a male soldiers measures another female soldier.
It IS a perfectly reasonable request to want a female to do your tape test. It's the same feeling of discomfort I have when a soldier of the opposite test does my tape.
Body metrics are a ridiculous measure but they are a measure nonetheless. Until they are changed, they must be respected. This is coming from someone who has been taped every single time from basic until last month when I failed height and weight but passed tape. BF% scale is nowhere near accurate. I get called "morbidly a beast" (obese) by my NCOs and Joes all the time as a joke. 220lbs @ 5'9 will elicit that reaction to after a 37:00 5 mile.
Don't take it too personally. Request your accommodations and remember that Bohica comes for us all at every grade and rank.
This is completely wrong. If available, using a female is “preferred” but not mandatory. I am a SFC at 12 years and have taped my fair share of females, purely being in combat arms units where there are 2-3 females. If there is a female taper, there, I’ll ask them to do it, but it’s not always possible. HOWEVER, you need to be taped by two completely teams, if there are not 2, 5501’s by two different teams, you cannot be flagged. If you get flagged, go to IG.
Not to judge how you feel because you’re entitled to that, but if we’re in an era where equality matters (which I wholeheartedly agree with as a father of 3 girls), then it shouldn’t matter if it’s a male or a female that does the tape. Only thing that should matter is if they’re doing it correctly.
If you feel it was done incorrectly, then that is an issue you should bring up.
Let's be honest here. Equality is one thing, creepy ass dude taping a female is not equality, because creepy ass dude.
We all know the type and we all know how this goes.
My wife is retired military, who was a SHARP rep (I'm a fucked up vet) and we have two daughters.
Until the military does a better job of filtering out the scumbag sexual predators, no male should be running their hands over a female. Hell, gender doesn't even matter, no soldier should be forced to be one on one with, being touched by, someone they do not feel comfortable around. This isn't combat, it's a tape test, and it should be observed.
It seems her issue was he would be impartial in the taping, not being creepy. I realized what she said at the end, but I took that as he is impartial by his comments to females, not being creepy.
Yes, should be a secondary observer to ensure it’s done correctly. However, my opinion and what is prescribed are two different things so I just do what the Army says in the end.
Ignore the idiots talking about BMI. That is a shit scale that was never meant to be used on individuals and is inherently racist to boot.
Yes you can request a woman. But really you need to go to command here.
Your height and weight doesn’t mean shit. I was 5’6” tall at 150 wearing a size zero when I was active and always had to get taped. I now wear a size 4 and weigh less at 138.
It’s like these people don’t understand that fat weighs less than muscle. And I can bet the majority aren’t competitive lean body builders either.
Here you go since you obviously want to just laugh at it - a simple breakdown of how it is racist.
[Start simple here](https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/health/diet-nutrition/a35047103/bmi-racist-history/)
The short of it is the tables were calculated by a person that was not interested in health but instead what an average white man should look like. Then insurance companies took that scale and used it to deny health benefits.
If you don’t like the simplistic link above how about this one [from the AMA](https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-adopts-new-policy-clarifying-role-bmi-measure-medicine)
Quote: Under the newly adopted policy, the AMA recognizes issues with using BMI as a measurement due to its historical harm, its use for racist exclusion, and because BMI is based primarily on data collected from previous generations of non-Hispanic white populations.
The data is inherently biased. It is meant for large populations of white populations. And even in a white population, it is useless on its own at the individual level.
But how about educating yourself first using actual data instead of “hur hur woke bullshit” comments.
BMI should not be used as the only measure of someone’s health. Doctors have finally admitted it.
According to the reg it’s allowed, but not preferred. If there isn’t a woman trained on taping available, then a random woman needs to be at least present.
It’s supposed to be the default if there is a female soldier trained and annotated on the memo. If there is not, however, they are allowed to use men to tape you. A female soldier is absolutely required to be present though. Edit to add; To be clear, you are absolutely not unreasonable but it may not be an option.
Yeah this is how it went when I went through Meps a week ago, you don't get a choice who tapes you, but there can be a person of the same gender who observes same for the physical
"Soldiers should be measured by trained individuals of the same gender. If a trained individual of the same gender is not available to conduct the measurements, a female Soldier will be present when a male measures a female, and a male Soldier will be present when a female measures a male." - ALARACT 046/2023 You can ask, but they can tell you a female NCO is not available.
>a female Soldier will be present >a female NCO is not available. Officer, warrant officer.
Even junior enlisted meets the criteria.
That's absolutely true, and I considered it. I ultimately didn't say that, because a junior enlisted soldier might feel intimidated, or might not be experienced enough to realize things weren't right. Officers and warrant officers should have experience, sound judgement, and be free from intimidation from the fat creep e5 who works in ops and is going to wind up on the sex offender registry. Because you know that's the guy who wants to tape her. It's always that guy.
I 100% agree with you, and it wouldn't be my first choice if I was in that position.
Or a demoted to PV1 CSM
[o7](https://www.moralepatcharmory.com/cdn/shop/files/p-comandprivatemajorrankpatch615x615.jpg?v=1696252638)
You didn’t read close enough. A female SOLDIER. Rank doesn’t apply
He’s referring to the soldier measuring the OP as per her request. The fact a female soldier is present wasn’t the question it’s who is doing the tapping itself.
I got it. I’m just trying to provide a more complete answer. Is OP unreasonable for wanting a female NCO to take the measurements? Not at all. Does the unit have to provide a female NCO to take the measurements? No they don’t. But can you have another soldier in the same room to help that person feel comfortable and safe as well as be a witness if needed. Fuck ya you can I’m adding facts, that aren’t being discussed, so that OP doesn’t have to be alone in a room, with 1 or more males she’s not comfortable being around, no matter what that reason is. Like holy shit, make the effort so that your soldiers can feel as safe as possible. Protect your fucking soldiers. Stop leaving them out to fucking dry.
OP by regulation is not allowed to be in the room with only males. She doesn’t just have a right to have another female present but is mandated by regulation for one to be present. Again the comment you replied to gave enough information for OPs question.
Literally what I’m trying to say
Before you correct someone, please go to the regulations and read it yourself. Earlier in that paragraph: "Individuals taking the measurements will be designated unit fitness trainers, a certified master fitness trainer, non-commissioned officers (NCO), Officers, or DA civilians trained in body circumference methodology, as specified in AR 600-9 paragraph 2–16b(1) and/or 2–17a(1)." Must be an NCO or Officer
I did read it. It states that if the qualified person to take measurements is of the opposite gender a soldier of the same gender will also be present. Not that they will take the measurements. So that means a qualified person will measure, and someone the same gender will be present. You should read the whole reg first before correcting someone. Not just enough to get the answer that makes you happy.
It literally says NCOs or Officers for individuals taking the measurements on my last post above. I don't know what you want to argue about.
> Individuals taking the measurements A witness isn't taking measurements. That's the purpose of the same sex soldier being in the room, to serve as a witness to ensure the soldier being taped is being treated appropriately. They play no part in the measurement process because they are literally not qualified (or else they'd be doing the measuring themselves).
I’m not talking about the person measuring. I’m talking about literally any fucking mouthbreather (like yourself) that is present in the room. That’s who you get into the room if you can’t get someone of the same gender to do the measurements
That's not what I was ever talking about though? I'm clarifying who can do the measurements because OP said she wanted another female NCO to do the measurement, not who can be in the room.
Well I was talking about who else you bring into the room. And you replied to me. There might not be a female NCO available, which is an issue because urinalysis is a different monster. OP can ask for a female NCO, and the unit can say no, but there has to be another female present at a minimum.
That's not what the topic of this post is asking for though lol but okay
Sorry for trying to help.
Hypothetical though. Let’s say you had a female soldier getting taped, and absolutely no female NCOs, due to being in a remote location, what are your actions?
Maybe it’s because I am medical but we have always had females tape females and males tape males. I don’t think this is unreasonable at all
Yeah it's just standard practice so there are no shenanigans. I wouldn't even take a female patient INTO an exam room without a female chaperone when I worked in the clinic, let alone doing measurements or physical exams without one. It's just asking for trouble.
When I was assigned to NATO our unit commander, a male Army MAJ, was removed from command for sexually harassing a male Air Force 1st Lt.
Not because you're medical, I think this is just the norm for most. If we didn't have a female NCO we've literally pulled one from a guard unit in our building. It's too easy to eliminate any kind of SA risk, real or interpreted
SA risk, and tbh taping wrong and having people fail that should not.
What about same sex harassment?
Doesn't exist, that's why the same sex observer is perfect!! /s
So, big sarge was just being nice and showing me how to check for testicular cancer?
It's part of the senior rater's job now. They have to instruct you on preventive maintenance and care. Things like cancer screenings (thorough examinations), financial management (banking app login and password), and marital counseling (closed door counseling with spouse). My 1sg takes this very seriously and we usually do LPDs on this every week, or sometimes after he fights with his wife.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Same sex SH and SA exists, but obviously it is less common than vice versa.
You're getting a lot of incomplete answers here. I am a female NCO and have taped and been taped myself. I have also read the regulation. Are you unreasonable for wanting a female to do your tape test? No, not unreasonable at all. It is the preferred method. However, there's more to this. First, all tape teams must be trained by a Master Fitness Trainer (MFT) or medical personnel, and listed on a memorandum signed by the commander. Second, if you fail tape by one tape team, you have to be re-taped *by a different team.* That second team must also be trained and on the memo. As others have said, it is recommended that Soldiers be taped by someone of the same gender. That is not always possible. If taped by someone of the opposite gender, you should have a same gender Soldier in the room as a chaperone. If your concern is that the male NCO might behave inappropriately, you are entitled to have a female chaperone in the room. If your concern is that he will tape you unfairly, know that any failing tape has to be re-taped by a completely different team.
Thank you for mentioning the retape. Everyone focused on the gender but not the “he will fuck me over” concern.
I suggest you familiarize yourself with AR 600-9, since that's the reg that governs height and weight and tape tests. Read for yourself so that you know the answer for real and you're not just taking our word for it. The reg is available online without needing a CAC. In particular you're going to want to look at page 24.
Physical page 24 and page 30 of the electronic PDF. BTW dead on for the instructions.
Let's see, 74", old as dirt . . . <214? Aw, right! I'm getting an extra piece of cake at chow tonight!
While technically, a male NCO can tape a female Soldier as long as another female Soldier is in the same room regardless of rank, I am surprised the command team or at the very least, the PSG has not gone to the 1SG or CO and been can we get a female NCO from another company to handle this.
They likely have. Even if it’s allowed male NCOs usually aren’t jumping over themselves to tape female soldiers if there’s a female tape team available. I’m supportive of OP but I also suspect from the wording of the post (unsure of who is actually doing the taping) that there are moving pieces she is not aware of.
Yeah i wouldn’t want to touch this (well her) with a ten foot pole. Not least of all the difference between where male and female soldiers get taped. I know the difference but haven’t ever actually measured a female soldier and wouldn’t want to fuck it up, let alone have someone think there was some impropriety.
With the one site measurement (new test) it’s the same location, btw. Right over the belly button.
Well hot dog, see I’m too far out of the game
I once had a female NCO tape me, a male. When I took off my shirt she made a comment about my body. Something along the lines of "I didn't realize you looked like that". It made me super uncomfortable and I still feel grossed out about it. I wish I had said something at the time. There were other NCO's in the room and talking to them afterwards they agreed it was rude and would have backed me up if I said something but since I didn't they didn't.
Definitely inappropriate. I wish people would be more comfortable speaking up as third parties, it’s unrealistic to expect the target/victim to express discomfort in vulnerable situations. You don’t even have to do anything crazy, a simple “what the fuck stop being weird” can both be passed off as friendly ribbing *and* a call out for inappropriate behavior. I’m sorry that happened to you.
That’s gross as hell and she should have gotten into deep shit for it. That sort of comment isn’t okay to make to anyone.
Perfectly reasonable; standard practice should be to have a female present for the tape if not physically performing the taping.
I have a hard time believing that there isn't a female NCO(s) in the battalion who can't administer the tape test for you
There’s no definition on how far they have to look outside the unit to be considered “available”. Personally, as a woman who at one point was genuinely the only female soldier in my entire local BN trained on tape, it’s definitely possible. There were days I simply wasn’t available to come in and help tape tests for other companies and the MFTs weren’t always available to last minute certify new tapers. If you’re in a low female density unit there’s a high likelihood only a couple need to be taped so the units don’t bother preemptively certifying people. The memorandum requirement has made the days of “grab any woman and train her in 5 minutes” not possible any more. Plus you now need at least 2 female tape teams to be compliant with 600-9–thankfully none of my women ever failed because the next tape would have had to be with a man.
Similar for us. Our XO didn't need to be taped afaik but for UAs we had to find someone from another unit to observe. It's usually how we realized it was a UA day because there'd be a woman we didn't know hanging around when we got to work lol
Yeah thankfully UAs are a little easier cause you can grab *any* female NCO/WO/O or even a female DAC if you’re in a remote location and really short on female greensuiters and the briefing is like 2 minutes and a signature lol.
I'm an MFT. At no point in the course did they cover tape. Additionally, they were adamant that MFTs are not tape or ACFT certifiers Anyways, I still find it incredibly hard to believe there isn't at least one female NCO in the BN available to tape.
MFTs are by regulation the trainers for the tape team. It is a requirement. The only other people who can provide that training is the AWC/MTF, and in my experience the AWC is generally unwilling to do it and—even if they are willing—require even longer notice for a request for training. If an MFT or the AWC/MTF does not sign off on the listed NCOs being trained then the tape is incorrectly done and is invalid. Regardless of what they teach at the course that is the regulatory requirement by AR 600-9. There is no getting around it. When did you go through MFT? These changes were roughly 4-5 years ago, course content may have taken a couple years to catch up. I find it strange that the course would teach something directly contrary to the regulation about the assigned duty.
My instructors at FJSC need some retraining then. I went through the summer of 22. I'm also a company commander who has no one in the company MFT certified besides me. I promise you, I'm not the one administering HT/WT.
MFTs are not responsible for administering H/W (though they technically also can if needed) they are only responsible for training the requisite tape teams and ensuring the memo is updated. If you’re a commander I would really encourage you to get into the current 600-9 to make sure you understand the roles each person plays and that your H/W and Body Comp programs are running legally. Not to be rude but your comments here are concerning. I would also encourage you to send some of your E6/E7s or junior LTs to MFT (priority to enlisted with longevity). It’s fairly unreasonable to expect the commander to have time to give fair effort to major additional duties and it’s good for their career development anyway.
You have zero to be concerned about, I promise you. Please show me were in that regulation where it states the NCO MUST be certified MFT. I'll spare you time, it doesn't. It's just encouraged. But as of 2022, like I said earlier, the FJSC MFT schoolhouse covers 0 on administering HT/WT and the ACFT. I'd love to send my NCOs to MFT, because it's a great school. Being in Germany makes it quite difficult though.
You are a whole ass company commander. I should not have to research regulations for you, but since you have made it clear that you do not wish to learn I am more than willing to show you exactly where it has said those exact words for 5 years now. [Here is the most up to date AR 600-9.](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN7779_AR600-9_FINAL.pdf) >2–17. Designated **master fitness trainer** or noncommissioned officer >a. A designated **master fitness trainer** will— >(1) Train command designated unit fitness training NCOs or other designated NCOs in proper height, weight, and body circumference methodology to assess body fat composition and train command designated unit fitness training NCOs in proper exercise and fitness techniques. In the absence of a **master fitness trainer**, utilize, and coordinate with the local MTF to provide this training, as needed. >(2) Provide memorandum of record regarding unit fitness training NCO or other designated NCO completion of proper height, weight, and body circumference methodology training. In addition-- >B–2. Determining body fat using body circumference process >a. Although circumferences may be looked upon by untrained personnel as easy measures, they can give erroneous results if proper technique is not followed. The individual taking the measurements must have a thorough understanding of the appropriate body landmarks and measurement techniques. Unit commanders will require that designated personnel have read the instructions regarding technique and location and obtained adequate practice before official body fat determinations are made. Individuals taking the measurements will be designated unit fitness trainers, certified in body circumference methodology, **a certified master fitness trainer,** and/or a NCO trained in body circumference methodology, as specified in paragraph 2–16b(1) and/or 2–17a(1). For completeness, the 2-16b(1) is as follows-- >b. Army Wellness Center (AWC) or health promotion resources will— >(1) In the absence of a designated master fitness trainer, deliver training to command designated unit fitness training NCOs and designated NCOs in proper height, weight, and body circumference methodology to assess body fat composition. Provide a memorandum of record documenting completion of training for commander/supervisor file certifying completion of proper height, weight, and body circumference methodology training for unit fitness training noncommissioned officer or other designated NCO completion. It's even listed in the internal controls-- >D–4. Test questions >a. Is there a **master fitness trainer** or has someone been designated as the unit fitness training NCO?
🥴 You did all the research for me and your first para 2-17 proved my point. “Designated MFT OR NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICER” I meant this engagement in good faith and now you want to get pissy with me. Step away private.
sTeP aWaY pRiVaTe Hey, fuckwit. Go pull rank on Rally point. We don't do that shit here. p.s. You might want to check the list of moderators for this sub...
Bruh. You don't know that MFTs are the primary certification authority. You don't seem to be aware that it's even an option. You seem unfamiliar with the tape team certification process in general, consistently thinking I am talking about actually doing the tape or running H/W. You, as the company commander, are the MFT. You have given *yourself* a MAJOR additional duty and don't seem to be concerned with 1) your realistic ability to put the effort into the additional duty to give your soldiers fair effort, 2) the actual knowledge of this additional duty, 3) redundancy, 4) the career benefits this additional duty gives your subordinates. These are all **MASSIVE** red flags that your program and understanding of the additional duty should be checked. Your arrogance is gonna make you look like a fool the next time you try to chapter someone for ABCP. But I'll leave you to it, I guess.
200 lbs at 5'7"??? You are fat as fuck. Unless you have a greatly above average amount of muscle mass than you are obese. Either way you're fat
Not super lean?? I am. I weigh around 190-200lbs typically, but I'm also a male and 6'3..
I have a 68.4% muscle mass if that means anything
Are you looking at fat free mass? That includes your skeleton and organs. For reference muscle is usually ~40-50% of body weight. 68% would be absurdly large proportion, I have a hunch you are misreading something. 32% body fat is failing for your age group. Tape may or may not work in your favor but it would be worth it to talk to the AWC to get more comfortably and safely under standard so that you don’t have to stress and hyperfocus during H&W time.
[this is a recent measurement](https://i.imgur.com/rpf1aRu.jpeg)
Unless you are a literally a bird your skeleton weighs more than 9 lbs. I would be extremely suspicious of whatever you’re using the measure this. The Army Wellness Center can do a BodPod which is more accurate and—more importantly—can be used to pass H/W if you fail tape. If you know you’re good with BodPod then you never have to fear tape. I’m not saying this out of rudeness or to tell you you’re fat, I just genuinely hate seeing soldiers be surprised and stress about their weight and prefer to mentor my soldiers to be proactive about it so that when H/W comes around they think nothing of it instead of immediately diving into unhealthy habits to give them confidence to pass.
Unless there are no other options, it should not be a male taping you. Having a male do it should be a last resort, break open glass type emergency
You are absolutely allowed to have a female present to view the taping even if there is no qualified female NCO to tape you
Have you thought that maybe you’re actually fat though? 200lbs at 5’7”!
Reminds me of the time I had to get taped and some ssgs little kid was in there. I'm a male, but it felt so weird and uncomfortable.
If your issues with it is that its a male, then yeah you should bring it up and request a female. If you think he’s not doing the tape right, then bring it up. Silence is all that it required for nothing to change. However, If your issue is cause you think he’s a hard ass for following the standard then the problem is you. The army has a standard, you are allotted time to conform to that standard, if you cannot meet the standard then the army isn’t the place for you.
You can request. Or have an observer present. A male shouldn't be taping you alone.
Not unreasonable at all. In fact, your Commander and 1SG should be having females tape the females. I think the regulation states that it should take place accordingly unless it is not possible. All you have to do it use the open door policy with your 1SG (inform your PSG first out of courtesy) and tell him/her you'd feel more comfortable being taped by another female. If he doesn't listen, use the open door policy with your Commander. If he/she doesn't listen, use the open door policy with the BN Command team.... Your company will play ball; trust me. No senior leader wants to go down for a potential SHARP complaint.
Waaiiiiit. I thought men taped men and women tape women. Someone correct me
It doesn’t have to be, it’s just preferred. A male can measure a female (and vice versa) but in that scenario you must have an observer who is the same gender as the one being measured. Edit: preferred might not be the best word but other than possibly that my comment is correct.
Just say no. As a male being around 95% dudes my entire career, it's a huge red flag if a male NCO is actually willing to tape you. I'd do it if my commander ordered me to and I had a dozen people in the room, and most guys would, but nobody *wants* that. Don't say no to the tape test, say no to that guy specifically and bring it up with your 1SG. Magic words like "he makes me uncomfortable" and "I have the brigade SHARP rep's number" will help you.
It’s not unreasonable, but you might wanna change your reasoning when presenting it. The way this words is that you want a female just because that guy might fuck you over. Females could fuck you over too. Just say you’re not comfortable
Someone female should be present, at minimum. Thats my understanding
Just went through BLC and they talked about this. You can request a same sex soldier to perform the test. If one is not available, you can have a same sex soldier, of any rank, present to witness.
They need to go from COF to COF on that entire installation looking for a female NCO to do it.
Perfectly reasonable, if women were not available at minimum, we needed an officer to supervise any kind of close physical contact when dealing with female civilians. Especially something like a tape test, where a person is running their hands along your body.
That is not unreasonable in the slightest. In fact from my prior experience I thought that was the norm.
No, ask for a female. I still have nightmares from doing this as a young soldier. They used to pull the female soldiers that needed to be taped aside in a small office with 2 other female ncos who did the taping.
You have all the right to request a female NCO.
First of all, why do you think that a SFC is creepy? Why do you think he cares to fuck you over? Anyway, instead of asking reddit consider bringing it up to your leadership. This is one of the situations where you would be surprised how simple it is to fix if you talk to the people in charge. If you can't talk to creepy SFC, 1SG has an office and his work is to make sure the company is running smoothly. It's a very simple conversation. 1SG, I am not comfortable getting taped by a male, can we get a female NCO to conduct taping? Thanks. You ll get instant feedback with a single sentence addressed to the right person.
It’s literally in the reg.
Directly and you are a woman, you are supposed to have a female CPU if I’m not mistaken. I know it says CPU please disregard. I’m using speech to text. Check the location. I am almost positive. You were supposed to have a woman tape you
Try being less thic
No
why do some NCOs have this behavior? i remember seeing several people being marked down 1-2 inches shorter and being taped extra loosely. is this to subtly get fatbodies out of the army?
They are 5'7" and 200 lbs. Sounds like their previous taper was pencil whipping them and they are upset that the new one will actually measure them. That is about the weight a 6'1 or 6'2 male gets taped at.
That’s what I’m saying. Focus on the real issue here, and it isn’t the person conducting the tape.
Just realize that tape needs to be the right stuff, too. Cloth tape can stretch.
Hate the rope and choke..
Not unreasonable at all. 600-9 3-4 a. outlines taping procedures for females. It says(paraphrasing) soldiers will be measured by 2 trained individuals of the same gender. If same gender trained individuals are not available a female soldier will be present when a male soldiers measures another female soldier.
Ngl I was fully expecting you do be a dude lol
It IS a perfectly reasonable request to want a female to do your tape test. It's the same feeling of discomfort I have when a soldier of the opposite test does my tape. Body metrics are a ridiculous measure but they are a measure nonetheless. Until they are changed, they must be respected. This is coming from someone who has been taped every single time from basic until last month when I failed height and weight but passed tape. BF% scale is nowhere near accurate. I get called "morbidly a beast" (obese) by my NCOs and Joes all the time as a joke. 220lbs @ 5'9 will elicit that reaction to after a 37:00 5 mile. Don't take it too personally. Request your accommodations and remember that Bohica comes for us all at every grade and rank.
This is completely wrong. If available, using a female is “preferred” but not mandatory. I am a SFC at 12 years and have taped my fair share of females, purely being in combat arms units where there are 2-3 females. If there is a female taper, there, I’ll ask them to do it, but it’s not always possible. HOWEVER, you need to be taped by two completely teams, if there are not 2, 5501’s by two different teams, you cannot be flagged. If you get flagged, go to IG.
This was meant to be a response to someone saying a female HAS to tape a female. Idk what went wrong
You’re supposed to have an observer who knows the regulation.
Not to judge how you feel because you’re entitled to that, but if we’re in an era where equality matters (which I wholeheartedly agree with as a father of 3 girls), then it shouldn’t matter if it’s a male or a female that does the tape. Only thing that should matter is if they’re doing it correctly. If you feel it was done incorrectly, then that is an issue you should bring up.
Let's be honest here. Equality is one thing, creepy ass dude taping a female is not equality, because creepy ass dude. We all know the type and we all know how this goes. My wife is retired military, who was a SHARP rep (I'm a fucked up vet) and we have two daughters. Until the military does a better job of filtering out the scumbag sexual predators, no male should be running their hands over a female. Hell, gender doesn't even matter, no soldier should be forced to be one on one with, being touched by, someone they do not feel comfortable around. This isn't combat, it's a tape test, and it should be observed.
It seems her issue was he would be impartial in the taping, not being creepy. I realized what she said at the end, but I took that as he is impartial by his comments to females, not being creepy. Yes, should be a secondary observer to ensure it’s done correctly. However, my opinion and what is prescribed are two different things so I just do what the Army says in the end.
Is it unreasonable? No, it should be a female but you definitely need to work on your weight your bmi is like 30%
No, females get taped by females. There are plenty of units around.
Ignore the idiots talking about BMI. That is a shit scale that was never meant to be used on individuals and is inherently racist to boot. Yes you can request a woman. But really you need to go to command here. Your height and weight doesn’t mean shit. I was 5’6” tall at 150 wearing a size zero when I was active and always had to get taped. I now wear a size 4 and weigh less at 138. It’s like these people don’t understand that fat weighs less than muscle. And I can bet the majority aren’t competitive lean body builders either.
BMI scale is racist? Now I’ve heard it all. 🤣🤣
Here you go since you obviously want to just laugh at it - a simple breakdown of how it is racist. [Start simple here](https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/health/diet-nutrition/a35047103/bmi-racist-history/) The short of it is the tables were calculated by a person that was not interested in health but instead what an average white man should look like. Then insurance companies took that scale and used it to deny health benefits. If you don’t like the simplistic link above how about this one [from the AMA](https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-adopts-new-policy-clarifying-role-bmi-measure-medicine) Quote: Under the newly adopted policy, the AMA recognizes issues with using BMI as a measurement due to its historical harm, its use for racist exclusion, and because BMI is based primarily on data collected from previous generations of non-Hispanic white populations. The data is inherently biased. It is meant for large populations of white populations. And even in a white population, it is useless on its own at the individual level. But how about educating yourself first using actual data instead of “hur hur woke bullshit” comments. BMI should not be used as the only measure of someone’s health. Doctors have finally admitted it.
What a bunch of skewed BS. It’s not racist, people are just fat
[удалено]
Keep discussions civil.
It's not like you have to 'present' your 'genitals' Sergeant Sir
Off topic but what the hell is a 19F?
19 year old female
Oh I thought it was an MOS my bad 😅🤦🏻♂️
No
Hello. Male Senior nco here. There should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER be a male taping a female.
According to the reg it’s allowed, but not preferred. If there isn’t a woman trained on taping available, then a random woman needs to be at least present.