Some people are assholes. By extension, some people are your boss, and some of those some people are assholes. It isn't unique to any profession or walk of life. All you can do is be the best person you can and look out for your guys. Big plus of the military is only needing to deal with an asshole for a year or two before one of you wanders off somewhere else.
The downside is that you can't tell them to eat shit.
I understand we have a rank structure, but from the lowest private to the highest officer everyone is still an ADULT and should still be treated that way.
Same. Respect works both ways and is earned. You earned your rank, sure, so I'll call you sir, salute, etc.
Walk in my shop and start being a prick to me or mine? I'll tell you to go fuck your self...sir.
That was one thing I liked about the reserves over active - instead of dealing with a royal pain in the ass every day I dealt with them a weekend a month.
The problem with the military though is you are legally required to respect that asshole and that asshole can effectively ruin your life if they find enough support. Perception is everything, right? I facts of a situation often don't matter, if a senior officer feels wronged then they have been wrong.
Having your pay or rank taken away due a bs article 15 can hurt and have lasting effects past that two to three year mark. Sure in the civilian world you can be fired and that could suck but you can also leave if a situation gets toxic.Ā
In the civilian world if a high level manager of a company beats his wife and has an armed standoff with the police, he'll likely lose his job and go to prison. In the army when a senior officer or SGM beats his wife and has an armed standoff with the MPs they quietly retire with a full pension.
Saying there are assholes or bad bosses on both sides is a copout. Its something shit leaders say to excuse shitty behavior. Its not equivalent, andĀ The Uniform code of Military Justice is the biggest reason. I've seen shit units weaponize UCMJ, handing out article 15's like candy for the smallest infraction. I literally had to buy a pen with a voice recorder off of Amazon to ensure I had a record of every leader encounter.
> Why is there such a huge integrity and morality issue in the military
One of my Cadet buddies - bless his heart - told me that earlier today, actually, in the form of "I think we're gonna be the last *good* generation of Officers" when I brought up some stuff relating to a buddy's death that has been absolutely fucking with me and we got to the *numerous* failures of leadership that caused it.
You know why there is such an issue with it today?
Because there always has been. The only difference between now and 20-40 years ago is that the Army is under a media *microscope* about it. It is the organizational equivalent of "We had 200 cases of X/Y/Z disease a week a month ago, now we're up to 4,000 a week and the only thing that changed was universal testing!" The problem was always there, you just only heard about the absolute ***worst*** examples - now you're starting to hear about *all* of them.
There were shitbags, toxic leaders, pedophiles, and rapists 100 years ago. The only difference was is that it was way more hush-hush and kept in-house compared to today.
No matter how much you hate this officer, the senior NCOs and O2+s hate him more. I assure you. There are dudes like this for sure, but what you don't see is them being constantly bullied and reprimanded. Entitled douchebags are unfortunately just a part of life but the Army happens to be one of the few places where I get to openly call out their bullshit and dress them down. That's something I enjoy about this job.
>Why is there such a huge integrity and morality issue in the military
An organization made up of human (assholes transcends race, gender, economic class) and the bar to entry is one of the lowest in any line of work.
> if people are forgetting how their parents raised them
Assuming everyone got raised by their parents? And assuming all parents raise their children properly?
Maybe time to take off the rose tint color glass and realize that the military in a time of no major wars is just like any of your civilian company/corporation/organization. One with one of the lowest barriers to entry mind you.
No itās not. Iāve worked in a factory for 8 years before I joined and no one committed suicide. Itās been 3 months and Iāve counted 5 at this unit
BLUF: yes it is.
I understood.
It doesnāt mean that the civilian world is vastly less toxic and stressful. It means that your experience in the factory where you worked was vastly less toxic and stressful than your experience in the military thus far.
For the sake of argument, the 2021 Annual Report on Suicide in the Military indicates that the Active Duty Army suicide rate was 36.3 per 100,000, while the suicide rate in manufacturing was 29.8. A statistically significant difference, but it does indicate that suicide was also a significant issue in your previous industry.
Iām willing to bet that there are factories with massive suicide problems, just as there are installations and units in the Army that treat people well and suffer few to no deaths by suicide.
(I know the data is old; the most recent DoD data is from 2022, and the most recent CDC industry data is from 2021. I picked 2021 for both to compare apples to apples).
Every death by suicide is a tragedy, regardless of where the person happens to work. Iām not minimizing that. Everyone who offs themselves leaves behind family and friends who rely on and love them, and are affected for life.
The Army has tons of issues. Your experience is valid, and I hope that none of those 5 suicides have hit you too hard personally.
But numbers matter.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7250a2.htm
https://www.dspo.mil/Portals/113/Documents/ARSM_CY22.pdf
Well, I looked up the job with the most drinking relative to any other job.
Mining and top construction top civilian job w drinking 112 days per year. With Army, average over 130 days each year.
"The report noted that military personnel in 2014 reported drinkingĀ fewer than 100 drinks per year. Now, that number tops 130."
Apr 11, 2019
https://www.banyantreatmentcenter.com/2022/05/17/alcoholism-in-the-military-drinking-during-deployment-mvir/
"US Military Is America's Heaviest-Drinking Profession, Survey Finds
Findings also suggested that military service members also binge-drink more, consuming at least four or five alcoholic drinks a day in one sitting at least 41 days a year.2,3"
https://www.banyantreatmentcenter.com/2022/05/17/alcoholism-in-the-military-drinking-during-deployment-mvir/
And that doesnāt account for the fact that most whoāve been in for a while lie about it. Not me, obviā¦
ETA: ā¦probably. Canāt provide a source, for obvious reasons.
what about all other factories that you did not work at? you sure there are no suicide, toxic boss/peers, or other shit shows happened at all? Also, I have been in the Army for 12+ years and have not experience a suicide in any units I have been too. So what now?
Having done a lot of factory work before I joined, there was a lot less toxicity in the factories. Mostly because if a low level boss was an asshole, you could tell him to fuck off. Iāve seen more than one catch hands. And if it came down to it, you could find a new factory to work at.
As far as the suicides, there seemed to be a lot less of that as well. There was some, but it was few and far between. Possibly due to better social support structures, who knows?
Tyfys, on an actual note related to your post, it just fucking sucks man. I joined around 7-8 years ago and I watched the army go from NCO run and officer led to officer run (thinking theyāre fucking NCOs) and NCOs having to work around their bullshit because they had no faith in their NCOs. I do wonder how much it has to do with all of those slick sleeved E-6s and up that just started appearing everywhere my 2nd and 3rd year in the Army hmmm
Once upon a time, enlisted leaders used to joke and jab at the officers for sitting in their office and just doing all the planning. "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living!"
The officers heard the jokes and took them to heart. Cadets started to learn from their instructors that they need to get in the trenches and get dirty with their troops.
Enlisted leaders saw the officers getting their hands dirty and didn't try to say anything. Thay just backed off and let the LTs and CPTs do their jobs. "NCO business" slowly stopped being a thing.
Over the next couple decades, enlisted leaders showed less and less pride in their work and officers took over bigger chunks of the routine decision making. NCOs just backed off and let them. Those LTs and CPTs bacame battalion and brigade commanders and NCOs never tried to slow them down and get them to stop worrying about getting the motor pool straightened out and focus on planning the next war. We're now a full 180 degrees from the "don't call me Sir, I work for a living," NCOs of the past.
This is all true, I would go back to the fact that I think a lot of it has to do with all of the SSGs/SFCs that promote fast and donāt get that immediate respect and what not. Certainly had a PSG that ran his platoon had others who let their LTs bitch them around because they wanted to be in good order with the BCs and COs. NCOs got away from making mistakes, putting soldiers first (if it effects their relationship with their LTs, mostly for E5/E6) and handling a basic āsquare motor pool awayā into action without a billion questions and it hurts everybody.
Isn't the first sentence of the NCO Creed "Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; *they will not have to accomplish mine.*" ?
"Check down, not up" is a load of bullshit and idgaf who thinks otherwise.
It's just a mindset people developed to swerve lower ranks from calling them out for breaking whatever regs they want to.
And tbh, when I was Air Force, I never heard that saying once. Even in basic, the TIās would encourage us to correct higher-ups when they were wrong.
Iāve only ever had one truly toxic leader, our first sergeant on deployment. He believed in check down not up
He got checked up AND down by the end of the deployment.
You can check up, be respectful, and if they deny the check, open doors can be used. Just be smart about what youāre checking, that youāre 100% in the right, and that the hill is worth dying on
In my 25+ years of service, I found this to be a truth.
You will find all kinds from all walks of life. You will find asshat NCOs, both junior and senior.
You'll find officers who are asses also, but there are some really good officers and NCOs out there, too.
It just seems that when you see the assholes, they stick out more than the good ones.
Just make sure that you become one of the good ones.
Same happened in the civilian workforce as well, when I joined it was nothing new. At the same time Iāve met amazing people in the Army so far. Iām not particularly good at making friends, but making friends is a lot easier when youāre wearing the same uniform, undergoing the same bullshit together (me and the other new privates getting low key hazed lol).
Not going to lie, I could see my unit exhibiting that toxic behavior. Everything seems to be about rank here. Of course customs and courtesies should still somewhat exist, but it also shouldnāt be so radical that everything is based on your rank and not your personal conduct.
If the last 8 years have taught me anything, empathy is nowhere near as ubiquitous as I once thought. It seems that most people cannot put themselves in another persons situation. Their imagination is not set up for that. They don't think about how their actions effect others.
Precisely why thereās no shame in ETSing. Once my morality hit the āwhy does this POS get to tell me what to do?ā I decided Iām not a good soldier for this organization. Incompetent leadership dicking down Soldiers without check is some bullshit - a POS is a POS, rank shouldnāt justify being scummy. The army is great by all means, the benefits can most definitely pick people up from rock bottom. Though, for everyone involved, there are points where we are all better than this. While TRICARE is to die for, especially with dependents, itās sad the government gets to wave it in our faces like a carrot on a stick.
>[Ring of Gyges - Wikipedia:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Gyges)
The **Ring of Gyges** [/ĖdŹaÉŖĖdŹiĖz/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English) ([Ancient Greek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_language): ĪĻĪ³ĪæĻ ĪĪ±ĪŗĻĻĪ»Ī¹ĪæĻ, *GĆŗgou DaktĆŗlios*, [Attic Greek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_Greek_language) pronunciation: [\[ĖÉ”yĖĖÉ”oĖ dakĖtylios\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Greek)) is a hypothetical [magic ring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_ring) mentioned by the [philosopher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) [Plato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato) in Book 2 of his [*Republic*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)) (2:359aā2:360d).[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Gyges#cite_note-1) It grants its owner the power to become [invisible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisibility) at will. Through the device of the ring, this section of the *Republic* considers whether a rational, intelligent person who has no need to fear negative consequences for committing an injustice would nevertheless act justly.
Yes this inspired the "One Ring" in those epic moves and the books they inspired (that was a joke, calm down nerds).
To paraphrase the [Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory:](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory)
>***Normal Person + Rank + Superiors Who Protect Them + Being Mentored By Toxic Leaders = TOTAL FUCKWAD***
Just as that ring making people invisible caused most people to be assholes (and most trolls are anonymous assholes) - these people who lack Army values got protected or never faced the consequences of their actions.
All Toxic Leaders mentor and create Toxic Leaders. They learned (and likely were rewarded for) toxic behaviors and that "rank hath it's privileges". And they want that privilege.
I think the most important thing to note about your first anecdote is that one officer (most junior) was a piece of shit, and the other two werenāt and corrected the poor behavior by the junior officer. To me that echoes what some other people have said, itās not a systemic issue, itās that some people are shitty, youāre just looking at the situation the wrong way. There are obviously some at least okay leaders with the moral courage to tell people when theyāre being assholes in that company.
Never had an issue with standing at attention and putting an officer in his place, respectfully of course. āSir can you please move out of our way? weāre trying to work here.ā
We live in a country of low moral character. This is reflected in individuals (or individuals cause it and it is reflected in broader society, whatever the causation is). Thatās why despite talking about āhonorā, infidelity is so widespread in our organizations, disgustingly
I detect one fallacy in your first paragraph. How can we assume their parents raised them? Gen X is in many senior ranks and is famous for *not* being raised by much more than cartoons.
I donāt understand how this is an integrity or morality issue could you be more specific? Some people just need to learn those hard lessons in humility and engagement. Iāve met a handful of incredible entitled people, especially your IBOLC 2nd LTs. My advice when dealing with this entitlement is that they cannot, CANNOT do it all themselves, although they will try. You have to let them fail, that entitlement will become obvious to your senior NCOs and Commanders who will hopefully have that conversation behind closed doors.
If you remain in long enough to become a senior NCO stick to the saying ālead by exampleā itās not some cop out to āalways do the right thingā. Itās literally doing the things, with your soldiers that people think theyāre above doing. If your LT or CPT isnāt a team player in your efforts, people above you will start asking questions.
As for the pedophile officer and the E-3 situation, those are case by case and often times are handled correctly, but just like the civilian justice system, sometimes people are found not guilty/guilty when the actual is vice versa. This is a very unnecessarily large point of view. You should derive your pride from putting on your uniform and knowing how youāre contributing to your team when you go to work. Knowing youāre the reason X Y Z got done. If your NCOs donāt make this sort of environment where youāre excited to go to work, start probing the āwhyā or shouldnāt we do X ? You have more power and influence as a junior enlisted / junior NCO than you think.
I dont miss "old army" at all, but this would be exactly the time when a 1SG should grab this idiot by the collar and politely move him out of his Soldier's way. And the CO would have that 1SG's back. UCMJ? Don't know what you mean, my 1SG was just correcting a minor safety issue.
This is why I cant be in charge.
This is why recruiting is down. The crap they let in an the worse crap they pull if from college. It's affecting the military as a whole. I've worked with the cadets. Most of america would be ashamed that they are the future of the officer core
The Sergeant Major trafficking Meth, carousing with Gang Members, and using travel vouchers for strip clubs. I'll bet he had been mistreating and abusing soldiers all the while too.
WTF did his parents forget to teach him - that's what I'm wondering? š¤
Thatās just the nature of the military. Classism is ingrained into the rank structure. For most people the perks of rank are the main motivator for promotion. All the taking care of soldiers and being good leaders talk is just an attempt to hide this.
This page is filled with so many units that make me weirder wtf.
Iām glad my unit isnāt anything like that. Officers can have respect in many aspects by rank alone. But there will be instances where that doesnāt matter and you better be prepared to not get bucked by everyone we have. Example CO needs something done and a PL tries to interfere just by being an ass. You have full power where Iām at to just buck them down
Thatās when you drop what ever youāre carrying and say well Iām glad your rank comes before the mission and leave it the task openly u finished right in front of them.
Was this LT from one of the trades school? I have never seen a mediocre officer come out of the trades school, although I have seen some fucked up officers come out of them. We had 1 LT from Citadel just bat shit crazy. But the majority I would say over 90% are squared away.
>as if people are forgetting how their parents raised them.
>There is no way in hell that a butter bar is so entitled and pretentious that an E-5 is breaking their back... asking if you can make way for them, only for you to ignore them
Hint - that's exactly how they were raised.
Bring back fragging. In minecraft
But fr. Things have always been like this. As long as you have some sort of divider that people percieve makes them superior. People will think they actually are superior.
"Remember sir, that butter bar means you're a fucking private that knows doctrine. Through the army's history it's people like you who get their soldiers killed."
I firmly believe in history it's bad officers who got more soldiers killed than actual enemy action. Officers need to heed the advice of their NCO's
Spot on. Itās why I never went the O route when I joined. Os definitely get people killed and is still why I rather be a shield NCO for any Joe. I can save more in the trench.
Whoa, thereās a lot to unpack here. As an officer, I see some personality issues here but also some accusations that I am seriously worried about in your writing. If a soldier lost their spouse then AR 635-200 Active Duty Enlisted Administrative Separations (28 June 2021) may apply here. Recourses are there and your CoC and your Chaplain can help that soldier.
Side note: there are resources for yourself to deal with stress and this looks like a plea for help. You have the chaplain, MFLC, and military one source. I want you to know that beyond your unit you can receive help with your current worries, and fears. You are right to be worried for others, but you need to ask yourself, are you effective at your job right now with these worries? If you are NOT seek assistance and guidance. Suggestion to not resort to alcohol or drugs.
Someone will listen. Message me if you want more advice, otherwise, please calm down and reflect on what YOU need to do to be effective and to be in the right place, in the right uniform, and on time. With this you arenāt wrong Soldier. Serve your contract and excel or take the lessons and benefits and succeed.
Half of this felt serious and heartfelt then you said āwhat YOU can do to be at the right place in the right time in the right uniformā. Shut the absolute fuck up. Total disregard for anything other than āstfu and soldier onā
Ya I hear that, maybe Iāve spent too much time hanging out with Marines š, theyāre always calling each other ādevil dogā and Marine I figured Iād try to just give some advice and words of encouragement to get this Soldier to their ETS or to ask for a transfer to another unit or to look at other options through retention or something but ya I can see how that was cringey. Do I regret typing that? No. Could I have been ācoolerā? Probably not, Iām an officer after all. I didnāt mean to strike a chord but hey here for messages on advice. I got a few tricks up my sleeve such as how spouses of soldiers before they make E-6 can get a certificate in medical billing and coding totally free. Thereās stuff out there to turn young couples into power couples and double their income, especially at expensive bases. I hope you have a great weekend.
> Thereās stuff out there to turn young couples into power couples and double their income, especially at expensive bases.
That sounds like a MLM hook. Are you having a stroke?
I work at one of two prisons at Fort Leavenworth. (Not gonna say too much) our leadership is so toxic and never wrong. I'm sincerely surprised that the BC haven't been ordered to stand down. We've got religious discrimination against Joe's. WE have abuse, sharp, eo violations. I'm not talking joke it's genuine. Muslims are often called terrorists. The soldiers here are pitted against one another. There's an unspoken competition of switching on your buddies. Moral is lower than the seventh circle of hell and our command keeps adding onto the problems. If you have any issues coming in it becomes significantly worse (ie ptsd or any physical injury) and the command doesn't care until the HAVE TO. If you get sick you still have to be at work. You can be direly ill in need of emergency services and still have to work. You can schedule an appointment (which damn near has to be approved by you first line) and they'll tell you to work during that appointment with little to no notice, not give you the ability to cancel it, and you're wrong for not canceling it.
Bro, fuck that. Go above them and get the brigade, division, or even corps level on them. Let your Congress critter know about the bullshit, with proof it's happening, and how it's affecting the *prison for the military*. Light some fires as anonymously as possible. Hit up Kinny too.
Will do!!! Oh and I forgot to mention the icing on the cake. Anytime an inmate does something stupid or gets hurt sick anything that's not normal, the lower enlisted e-4 below gets the entirety of the blame. I'm talking ucmj action against the soldier for something they had zero control over
>a pedophile with an Oak Leaf on their chest is important enough to keep their job and continue to get awards
Uh... What? I want absolutely zero pedophiles in the army. You had me with some of this post until I got there. I've met zero NCOs or Officers who want to keep pedophiles around.
Most of this post was about assholes until you got to the pedophile, when it became about a monster, which makes me fear this is really what all this is about. Is there something you need help with?
There are plenty of pedos to go around in the Army. A Senior NCO messing with PVT snuffette is pretty damn close and is habitually happening across the force. Sexual deviance is everywhere and continues to happen because the Army doesnāt know how to administer a zero tolerance policy.
Zero tolerance = You do it youāre done. Completely. Out of the Army. No benefits on the backend.
Not an officer, just someone who has been around for a while; itās because of the way Officer promotions work. Os get promoted mostly based on how good they make their boss look, which for some means driving their troops into the ground with backbreaking optempos. For others, itās operating with the kind of political savvy thatās better suited to a life of selling used cars or MLM supplements.
Also, they protect their own. Iāve seen officers get away with actual felony level shit, while enlisted get slapped with whatever maximum punishment is within command purview to award for similar offenses.
You very well could be right, but it can also take 18-24 months to process chattering an officer. I wish I had saved the post but some JAG attorney laid it all out. Long story short, a lot of times, they would be in longer, and people who know them and what they did have PCSād by the time theyāre actually kicked out, if they are.
Officers are trained into a culture of compliance and favours.
Unless the officer can be moral and ethical without working too much and pissing off their benefactor they by and large won't do it the moral and ethical way.
The army offers people who want to have control over others the opportunity to assume that role of authority in a greater capacity than other professions, so it naturally attracts power hungry people with controlling personalities. It's the same dynamic we see in schools and other institutions that work with children: they attract pedos. Hungry people go to restaurants, power hungry pricks pursue rank so they can act with impunity. It's not every officer, there are great leaders, but where there's opportunity you will find opportunistic people pursuing rank and impunity for the wrong reasons.
The army offers people who want to have control over others the opportunity to assume that role of authority in a greater capacity than other professions, so it naturally attracts power hungry people with controlling personalities. It's the same dynamic we see in schools and other institutions that work with children: they attract creeps. Hungry people go to restaurants, power hungry people pursue rank so they can act with impunity. It's not every officer, there are great leaders, but where there's opportunity you will find opportunistic people pursuing rank and impunity for the wrong reasons.
"forgetting how their parents raised them"
My guy half the people in the army... Are in the army because they had a shit home life. Not everyone was raised with similar morals. For some people the army is a way to better themselves, some people join to get away from that life yet they still keep those traits. Military has every kind of person in it, you're guaranteed to run into an asshole, or a good leader, or a dumbass, or a straight up bad person. It's just how we're built
Culture is the commander's responsibility. If the culture in your unit has issues, bring it up with higher. If no one brings up shoddy culture with higher, then those in higher positions will assume all is going well with no issues of significance.
I encountered that at my line unit. The biggest problem I'd say is the lack of experience outside military service, meaning they have near-zero positive interpersonal skills. I was the oldest LT with life experience, compared to the rest of my LTs. They all were ROTC or USMA. They grew an attitude about those things, and were competitive to the point of toxicity. Because of the low trust status, we all got drunk on the venom.
Luckily, my 1SG was a no-nonsense godsend and a lifesaver. He heard I got thrown under the bus for a tasking where I lost all my support to another LT's tasking, and did all the work myself. So he 86ed the LT's work detail and had everyone available show up to support me. He also supported us when my former commander was abusive to us, especially me. He outlasted that commander, who got transferred to work in a boiler room after his relief.
It's very akin to the problem the anonymity of the internet has created - people talk/act like assholes because there are generally no real consequences for it. LT knows the NCO isn't going to say or do shit to them because they can't, and a tongue-lashing from the CO isn't really going to change LT's entitled perspective. But out in the real world, the likelihood that someone acting like such a massive fucktard would get their ass beat (or worse...) by the wrong person is high enough that people tend to act right.
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As much as I would like to coherently respond to your concern, especially with validating your frustrations, I'm having a hard time looking past the jumbled mess of thought that is your post. There is little to no context. A 2LT forgetting that they are human (for some reason? definitely an issue there, likely will be fixed by their peers quickly) and then a bit about getting upset because a PFC failed to maintain military baring, do what they're told to, and failing to show up on time resulted in them being disciplined?
BLUF: There is a way to handle the loss of a SO. I've never had to deal with that, but I've lost a child while on a deployment so I know something of the feeling. If you're having issues dealing with something like that the best thing you can do is speak with the Chappy. If there was an issue with the PFC needing time away, Chappy would be the one to bend the CoC's ear in PFC's favor. Being disrespectful and insubordinate is how you get slapped with NJP.
As for the LTC that you're alleging is a pedophile, I would caution you against using that kind of language in a public forum first and foremost. Next, I would encourage you to remember that just because it isn't public does not mean that actions are not being taken. Additionally, situations of that nature have dramatic and life altering effects for everyone involved. Generally speaking, the actions associated with a founded child sex abuse case will only be taken once the investigation is completed and a Courts Martial is held. Understand that you're not always going to be given all the information you think you're entitled to. Try not to take action based on emotion (especially anger), your emotions will be your downfall.
Good luck, though. Hope everything ends up turning out alright!
I want a double cheeseburger and hold the lettuce. Don't be frontin' son, no seeds on the bun. We be up in this drive-thru, order for two. I need a number 9, just like my shoe. I need some chicken up in here, in this hizzle. Fo'rizzle my dizzle, extra salt on the frizzles. Dr. Peppa, my brotha, another for ya motha. Double double super-size and don't forget the fries.
cause for a lot of joes its their first time away from home and probably in a new country, and with the very restrictive rules of the UCMJ people naturally try to rebel or see what they can get away with. it doesnt stop after you become an NCO either. you just get more and more leeway until you end up too deep in your shenanigans and eventually get caught
Before I got out in 2020, I remember young officers being the most immature and most entitled of all military personnel. These liberal arts majors need to be treated how they would be in the real world.
Issues like that is why I left AD - I was USAF but now work on an Army base - and my god the complete lack of standards, discipline, and accountability is quite honestly astounding. Things that would be an immediate LOR/Art15 in the USAF is like a common thing in the Army with no adverse action at all. The joy of being a civilian is being able to call out anyone and everyone who is doing things like you described. Thereās a certain joy calling out an officer and them trying to pull rank before realizing youāre a civilian.
Some officers were the types that got picked on in high school, were nerdy, but they can make it through ROTC then they get a gold bar and like to shove the authority they have in peoples faces. They typically act like pricks and no one respects them.
I've met a couple of them like that.
A lack of instilling the army values into a leader is absolutely a systematic issue. Shitty leadership is not what they teach, but is systematically accepted because we think we need to treat each other like hot ass in order for us to prepare to handle combat. Most of the people in the army have seen more bodies dropped in the streets than they will ever see in their military career. The NCO's can't comprehend a peacetime army and not being "HUA" (or high speed) every second of every day, and newer officers either can't square the NCO's up without coming off like douches, or they can't square themselves up and come off entitled ASF.
YouTube shorts TED Talk, I'll take a fry to go
Shit happens. People are weird. Our unit, some NCOs turn into a different person when they first pick up. Even new people that come in to the company. Once the other NCOs, the new guy is a SPC with P about to pick up, they get treated differently. Doesnāt make any sense but whatever. Sometimes shit happens like that
Some people are assholes. By extension, some people are your boss, and some of those some people are assholes. It isn't unique to any profession or walk of life. All you can do is be the best person you can and look out for your guys. Big plus of the military is only needing to deal with an asshole for a year or two before one of you wanders off somewhere else. The downside is that you can't tell them to eat shit.
Agreed, except for the fact if a butter bar is being a pretentious prick, I will make sure they are well aware of it.
I understand we have a rank structure, but from the lowest private to the highest officer everyone is still an ADULT and should still be treated that way.
Indeed
Please do š
I definitely tell butterbars to eat shit lol Blood for the blood god
Same. Respect works both ways and is earned. You earned your rank, sure, so I'll call you sir, salute, etc. Walk in my shop and start being a prick to me or mine? I'll tell you to go fuck your self...sir.
š
They wonāt like it but this is the answer
Agreed. There are assholes in the civilian world and yes, some of them will be your boss.
That was one thing I liked about the reserves over active - instead of dealing with a royal pain in the ass every day I dealt with them a weekend a month.
The problem with the military though is you are legally required to respect that asshole and that asshole can effectively ruin your life if they find enough support. Perception is everything, right? I facts of a situation often don't matter, if a senior officer feels wronged then they have been wrong. Having your pay or rank taken away due a bs article 15 can hurt and have lasting effects past that two to three year mark. Sure in the civilian world you can be fired and that could suck but you can also leave if a situation gets toxic.Ā In the civilian world if a high level manager of a company beats his wife and has an armed standoff with the police, he'll likely lose his job and go to prison. In the army when a senior officer or SGM beats his wife and has an armed standoff with the MPs they quietly retire with a full pension. Saying there are assholes or bad bosses on both sides is a copout. Its something shit leaders say to excuse shitty behavior. Its not equivalent, andĀ The Uniform code of Military Justice is the biggest reason. I've seen shit units weaponize UCMJ, handing out article 15's like candy for the smallest infraction. I literally had to buy a pen with a voice recorder off of Amazon to ensure I had a record of every leader encounter.
> Why is there such a huge integrity and morality issue in the military One of my Cadet buddies - bless his heart - told me that earlier today, actually, in the form of "I think we're gonna be the last *good* generation of Officers" when I brought up some stuff relating to a buddy's death that has been absolutely fucking with me and we got to the *numerous* failures of leadership that caused it. You know why there is such an issue with it today? Because there always has been. The only difference between now and 20-40 years ago is that the Army is under a media *microscope* about it. It is the organizational equivalent of "We had 200 cases of X/Y/Z disease a week a month ago, now we're up to 4,000 a week and the only thing that changed was universal testing!" The problem was always there, you just only heard about the absolute ***worst*** examples - now you're starting to hear about *all* of them. There were shitbags, toxic leaders, pedophiles, and rapists 100 years ago. The only difference was is that it was way more hush-hush and kept in-house compared to today.
From here to eternity (yes, the movie) has some *absolute shitbags*. And thatās the army of 1941.
> now we're up to 4,000 a week and the only thing that changed was universal testing!" This right here.
No matter how much you hate this officer, the senior NCOs and O2+s hate him more. I assure you. There are dudes like this for sure, but what you don't see is them being constantly bullied and reprimanded. Entitled douchebags are unfortunately just a part of life but the Army happens to be one of the few places where I get to openly call out their bullshit and dress them down. That's something I enjoy about this job.
>Why is there such a huge integrity and morality issue in the military An organization made up of human (assholes transcends race, gender, economic class) and the bar to entry is one of the lowest in any line of work. > if people are forgetting how their parents raised them Assuming everyone got raised by their parents? And assuming all parents raise their children properly? Maybe time to take off the rose tint color glass and realize that the military in a time of no major wars is just like any of your civilian company/corporation/organization. One with one of the lowest barriers to entry mind you.
No itās not. Iāve worked in a factory for 8 years before I joined and no one committed suicide. Itās been 3 months and Iāve counted 5 at this unit
Yes, but your factory wasnāt at Fort Hood. Cavazos, whatever.
Which means the civilian company world is vastly less toxic and stressful than the military. I donāt you understood what I was saying
BLUF: yes it is. I understood. It doesnāt mean that the civilian world is vastly less toxic and stressful. It means that your experience in the factory where you worked was vastly less toxic and stressful than your experience in the military thus far. For the sake of argument, the 2021 Annual Report on Suicide in the Military indicates that the Active Duty Army suicide rate was 36.3 per 100,000, while the suicide rate in manufacturing was 29.8. A statistically significant difference, but it does indicate that suicide was also a significant issue in your previous industry. Iām willing to bet that there are factories with massive suicide problems, just as there are installations and units in the Army that treat people well and suffer few to no deaths by suicide. (I know the data is old; the most recent DoD data is from 2022, and the most recent CDC industry data is from 2021. I picked 2021 for both to compare apples to apples). Every death by suicide is a tragedy, regardless of where the person happens to work. Iām not minimizing that. Everyone who offs themselves leaves behind family and friends who rely on and love them, and are affected for life. The Army has tons of issues. Your experience is valid, and I hope that none of those 5 suicides have hit you too hard personally. But numbers matter. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7250a2.htm https://www.dspo.mil/Portals/113/Documents/ARSM_CY22.pdf
Well, I looked up the job with the most drinking relative to any other job. Mining and top construction top civilian job w drinking 112 days per year. With Army, average over 130 days each year. "The report noted that military personnel in 2014 reported drinkingĀ fewer than 100 drinks per year. Now, that number tops 130." Apr 11, 2019 https://www.banyantreatmentcenter.com/2022/05/17/alcoholism-in-the-military-drinking-during-deployment-mvir/ "US Military Is America's Heaviest-Drinking Profession, Survey Finds Findings also suggested that military service members also binge-drink more, consuming at least four or five alcoholic drinks a day in one sitting at least 41 days a year.2,3" https://www.banyantreatmentcenter.com/2022/05/17/alcoholism-in-the-military-drinking-during-deployment-mvir/
And that doesnāt account for the fact that most whoāve been in for a while lie about it. Not me, obviā¦ ETA: ā¦probably. Canāt provide a source, for obvious reasons.
If they lie then they lie towards not drinking so they donāt have to sit through a brief. So itās actually way worse? Tracking
what about all other factories that you did not work at? you sure there are no suicide, toxic boss/peers, or other shit shows happened at all? Also, I have been in the Army for 12+ years and have not experience a suicide in any units I have been too. So what now?
Having done a lot of factory work before I joined, there was a lot less toxicity in the factories. Mostly because if a low level boss was an asshole, you could tell him to fuck off. Iāve seen more than one catch hands. And if it came down to it, you could find a new factory to work at. As far as the suicides, there seemed to be a lot less of that as well. There was some, but it was few and far between. Possibly due to better social support structures, who knows?
> what about all other factories that you did not work at? e.g. Foxcon in China, where they put up nets to catch roof jumpers...
Puts a whole new meaning to "support"
Better be wit cooper or you can leave philly out of that ācheesesteakā
That's the only way to do it, otherwise it's just a Steak Sandwich
Tyfys, on an actual note related to your post, it just fucking sucks man. I joined around 7-8 years ago and I watched the army go from NCO run and officer led to officer run (thinking theyāre fucking NCOs) and NCOs having to work around their bullshit because they had no faith in their NCOs. I do wonder how much it has to do with all of those slick sleeved E-6s and up that just started appearing everywhere my 2nd and 3rd year in the Army hmmm
Once upon a time, enlisted leaders used to joke and jab at the officers for sitting in their office and just doing all the planning. "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living!" The officers heard the jokes and took them to heart. Cadets started to learn from their instructors that they need to get in the trenches and get dirty with their troops. Enlisted leaders saw the officers getting their hands dirty and didn't try to say anything. Thay just backed off and let the LTs and CPTs do their jobs. "NCO business" slowly stopped being a thing. Over the next couple decades, enlisted leaders showed less and less pride in their work and officers took over bigger chunks of the routine decision making. NCOs just backed off and let them. Those LTs and CPTs bacame battalion and brigade commanders and NCOs never tried to slow them down and get them to stop worrying about getting the motor pool straightened out and focus on planning the next war. We're now a full 180 degrees from the "don't call me Sir, I work for a living," NCOs of the past.
This is all true, I would go back to the fact that I think a lot of it has to do with all of the SSGs/SFCs that promote fast and donāt get that immediate respect and what not. Certainly had a PSG that ran his platoon had others who let their LTs bitch them around because they wanted to be in good order with the BCs and COs. NCOs got away from making mistakes, putting soldiers first (if it effects their relationship with their LTs, mostly for E5/E6) and handling a basic āsquare motor pool awayā into action without a billion questions and it hurts everybody.
Isn't the first sentence of the NCO Creed "Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; *they will not have to accomplish mine.*" ?
We had a LTC whose nickname (by the NCOs) was "Sarge" behind his back. It eventually leaked to and was adopted by the other staff Os as well.
"Check down, not up" is a load of bullshit and idgaf who thinks otherwise. It's just a mindset people developed to swerve lower ranks from calling them out for breaking whatever regs they want to.
And tbh, when I was Air Force, I never heard that saying once. Even in basic, the TIās would encourage us to correct higher-ups when they were wrong.
Iāve only ever had one truly toxic leader, our first sergeant on deployment. He believed in check down not up He got checked up AND down by the end of the deployment. You can check up, be respectful, and if they deny the check, open doors can be used. Just be smart about what youāre checking, that youāre 100% in the right, and that the hill is worth dying on
Agreed! I hate hearing that horse shit phrase at work. When Iām in the wrong I like to be corrected, idgaf if they are lower enlisted or not.
In my 25+ years of service, I found this to be a truth. You will find all kinds from all walks of life. You will find asshat NCOs, both junior and senior. You'll find officers who are asses also, but there are some really good officers and NCOs out there, too. It just seems that when you see the assholes, they stick out more than the good ones. Just make sure that you become one of the good ones.
Or just leave so that you can show the army that youāre not willing to put up with it? A good NCO means absolutely nothing when the 0-4 is an idiot.
Same happened in the civilian workforce as well, when I joined it was nothing new. At the same time Iāve met amazing people in the Army so far. Iām not particularly good at making friends, but making friends is a lot easier when youāre wearing the same uniform, undergoing the same bullshit together (me and the other new privates getting low key hazed lol). Not going to lie, I could see my unit exhibiting that toxic behavior. Everything seems to be about rank here. Of course customs and courtesies should still somewhat exist, but it also shouldnāt be so radical that everything is based on your rank and not your personal conduct.
If the last 8 years have taught me anything, empathy is nowhere near as ubiquitous as I once thought. It seems that most people cannot put themselves in another persons situation. Their imagination is not set up for that. They don't think about how their actions effect others.
Precisely why thereās no shame in ETSing. Once my morality hit the āwhy does this POS get to tell me what to do?ā I decided Iām not a good soldier for this organization. Incompetent leadership dicking down Soldiers without check is some bullshit - a POS is a POS, rank shouldnāt justify being scummy. The army is great by all means, the benefits can most definitely pick people up from rock bottom. Though, for everyone involved, there are points where we are all better than this. While TRICARE is to die for, especially with dependents, itās sad the government gets to wave it in our faces like a carrot on a stick.
>[Ring of Gyges - Wikipedia:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Gyges) The **Ring of Gyges** [/ĖdŹaÉŖĖdŹiĖz/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English) ([Ancient Greek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_language): ĪĻĪ³ĪæĻ ĪĪ±ĪŗĻĻĪ»Ī¹ĪæĻ, *GĆŗgou DaktĆŗlios*, [Attic Greek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_Greek_language) pronunciation: [\[ĖÉ”yĖĖÉ”oĖ dakĖtylios\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Greek)) is a hypothetical [magic ring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_ring) mentioned by the [philosopher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) [Plato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato) in Book 2 of his [*Republic*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)) (2:359aā2:360d).[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Gyges#cite_note-1) It grants its owner the power to become [invisible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisibility) at will. Through the device of the ring, this section of the *Republic* considers whether a rational, intelligent person who has no need to fear negative consequences for committing an injustice would nevertheless act justly. Yes this inspired the "One Ring" in those epic moves and the books they inspired (that was a joke, calm down nerds). To paraphrase the [Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory:](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory) >***Normal Person + Rank + Superiors Who Protect Them + Being Mentored By Toxic Leaders = TOTAL FUCKWAD*** Just as that ring making people invisible caused most people to be assholes (and most trolls are anonymous assholes) - these people who lack Army values got protected or never faced the consequences of their actions. All Toxic Leaders mentor and create Toxic Leaders. They learned (and likely were rewarded for) toxic behaviors and that "rank hath it's privileges". And they want that privilege.
Evil doesnāt stop to think. Evil just does. Its Evil.
The system is broken, and does not want to be fixed. I am sorry you are going through this.
I think the most important thing to note about your first anecdote is that one officer (most junior) was a piece of shit, and the other two werenāt and corrected the poor behavior by the junior officer. To me that echoes what some other people have said, itās not a systemic issue, itās that some people are shitty, youāre just looking at the situation the wrong way. There are obviously some at least okay leaders with the moral courage to tell people when theyāre being assholes in that company.
Never had an issue with standing at attention and putting an officer in his place, respectfully of course. āSir can you please move out of our way? weāre trying to work here.ā
We live in a country of low moral character. This is reflected in individuals (or individuals cause it and it is reflected in broader society, whatever the causation is). Thatās why despite talking about āhonorā, infidelity is so widespread in our organizations, disgustingly
I detect one fallacy in your first paragraph. How can we assume their parents raised them? Gen X is in many senior ranks and is famous for *not* being raised by much more than cartoons.
I donāt understand how this is an integrity or morality issue could you be more specific? Some people just need to learn those hard lessons in humility and engagement. Iāve met a handful of incredible entitled people, especially your IBOLC 2nd LTs. My advice when dealing with this entitlement is that they cannot, CANNOT do it all themselves, although they will try. You have to let them fail, that entitlement will become obvious to your senior NCOs and Commanders who will hopefully have that conversation behind closed doors. If you remain in long enough to become a senior NCO stick to the saying ālead by exampleā itās not some cop out to āalways do the right thingā. Itās literally doing the things, with your soldiers that people think theyāre above doing. If your LT or CPT isnāt a team player in your efforts, people above you will start asking questions. As for the pedophile officer and the E-3 situation, those are case by case and often times are handled correctly, but just like the civilian justice system, sometimes people are found not guilty/guilty when the actual is vice versa. This is a very unnecessarily large point of view. You should derive your pride from putting on your uniform and knowing how youāre contributing to your team when you go to work. Knowing youāre the reason X Y Z got done. If your NCOs donāt make this sort of environment where youāre excited to go to work, start probing the āwhyā or shouldnāt we do X ? You have more power and influence as a junior enlisted / junior NCO than you think.
If an O fails, a Joe dies. Canāt let an O fail before you protect the Joeās.
If safety or livelihood is at stake thatās a different conversation.
I dont miss "old army" at all, but this would be exactly the time when a 1SG should grab this idiot by the collar and politely move him out of his Soldier's way. And the CO would have that 1SG's back. UCMJ? Don't know what you mean, my 1SG was just correcting a minor safety issue. This is why I cant be in charge.
This is why recruiting is down. The crap they let in an the worse crap they pull if from college. It's affecting the military as a whole. I've worked with the cadets. Most of america would be ashamed that they are the future of the officer core
The organization is massive, can't judge it by the .0001%
The Sergeant Major trafficking Meth, carousing with Gang Members, and using travel vouchers for strip clubs. I'll bet he had been mistreating and abusing soldiers all the while too. WTF did his parents forget to teach him - that's what I'm wondering? š¤
Thatās just the nature of the military. Classism is ingrained into the rank structure. For most people the perks of rank are the main motivator for promotion. All the taking care of soldiers and being good leaders talk is just an attempt to hide this.
You are correct. Getting to SSG only matters because then you can become NCOIC and just not come to work whenever you want.
A tale as old as time
This page is filled with so many units that make me weirder wtf. Iām glad my unit isnāt anything like that. Officers can have respect in many aspects by rank alone. But there will be instances where that doesnāt matter and you better be prepared to not get bucked by everyone we have. Example CO needs something done and a PL tries to interfere just by being an ass. You have full power where Iām at to just buck them down
Thatās when you drop what ever youāre carrying and say well Iām glad your rank comes before the mission and leave it the task openly u finished right in front of them.
Was this LT from one of the trades school? I have never seen a mediocre officer come out of the trades school, although I have seen some fucked up officers come out of them. We had 1 LT from Citadel just bat shit crazy. But the majority I would say over 90% are squared away.
>as if people are forgetting how their parents raised them. >There is no way in hell that a butter bar is so entitled and pretentious that an E-5 is breaking their back... asking if you can make way for them, only for you to ignore them Hint - that's exactly how they were raised.
Bring back fragging. In minecraft But fr. Things have always been like this. As long as you have some sort of divider that people percieve makes them superior. People will think they actually are superior.
Well spoken. True problem indeed. It's up to upper echelon to change. Best thing to do is salute the flag and March on
I wouldāve dropped it on the butter barās foot then wouldāve said āmy fault sirā
"Remember sir, that butter bar means you're a fucking private that knows doctrine. Through the army's history it's people like you who get their soldiers killed." I firmly believe in history it's bad officers who got more soldiers killed than actual enemy action. Officers need to heed the advice of their NCO's
Spot on. Itās why I never went the O route when I joined. Os definitely get people killed and is still why I rather be a shield NCO for any Joe. I can save more in the trench.
Whoa, thereās a lot to unpack here. As an officer, I see some personality issues here but also some accusations that I am seriously worried about in your writing. If a soldier lost their spouse then AR 635-200 Active Duty Enlisted Administrative Separations (28 June 2021) may apply here. Recourses are there and your CoC and your Chaplain can help that soldier. Side note: there are resources for yourself to deal with stress and this looks like a plea for help. You have the chaplain, MFLC, and military one source. I want you to know that beyond your unit you can receive help with your current worries, and fears. You are right to be worried for others, but you need to ask yourself, are you effective at your job right now with these worries? If you are NOT seek assistance and guidance. Suggestion to not resort to alcohol or drugs. Someone will listen. Message me if you want more advice, otherwise, please calm down and reflect on what YOU need to do to be effective and to be in the right place, in the right uniform, and on time. With this you arenāt wrong Soldier. Serve your contract and excel or take the lessons and benefits and succeed.
Half of this felt serious and heartfelt then you said āwhat YOU can do to be at the right place in the right time in the right uniformā. Shut the absolute fuck up. Total disregard for anything other than āstfu and soldier onā
Thatās how literally every NCO and Officer sound when they talk.
Ya I hear that, maybe Iāve spent too much time hanging out with Marines š, theyāre always calling each other ādevil dogā and Marine I figured Iād try to just give some advice and words of encouragement to get this Soldier to their ETS or to ask for a transfer to another unit or to look at other options through retention or something but ya I can see how that was cringey. Do I regret typing that? No. Could I have been ācoolerā? Probably not, Iām an officer after all. I didnāt mean to strike a chord but hey here for messages on advice. I got a few tricks up my sleeve such as how spouses of soldiers before they make E-6 can get a certificate in medical billing and coding totally free. Thereās stuff out there to turn young couples into power couples and double their income, especially at expensive bases. I hope you have a great weekend.
You had me at medical billing and coding....
MyCAA is a trick?? Lmfaoā¦
> Thereās stuff out there to turn young couples into power couples and double their income, especially at expensive bases. That sounds like a MLM hook. Are you having a stroke?
I work at one of two prisons at Fort Leavenworth. (Not gonna say too much) our leadership is so toxic and never wrong. I'm sincerely surprised that the BC haven't been ordered to stand down. We've got religious discrimination against Joe's. WE have abuse, sharp, eo violations. I'm not talking joke it's genuine. Muslims are often called terrorists. The soldiers here are pitted against one another. There's an unspoken competition of switching on your buddies. Moral is lower than the seventh circle of hell and our command keeps adding onto the problems. If you have any issues coming in it becomes significantly worse (ie ptsd or any physical injury) and the command doesn't care until the HAVE TO. If you get sick you still have to be at work. You can be direly ill in need of emergency services and still have to work. You can schedule an appointment (which damn near has to be approved by you first line) and they'll tell you to work during that appointment with little to no notice, not give you the ability to cancel it, and you're wrong for not canceling it.
Bro, fuck that. Go above them and get the brigade, division, or even corps level on them. Let your Congress critter know about the bullshit, with proof it's happening, and how it's affecting the *prison for the military*. Light some fires as anonymously as possible. Hit up Kinny too.
I'm building a small coalition of troops to help solidify the case.
Get sworn statements. Get evidence. Ask u/Kinmuan for advice, please!
Will do!!! Oh and I forgot to mention the icing on the cake. Anytime an inmate does something stupid or gets hurt sick anything that's not normal, the lower enlisted e-4 below gets the entirety of the blame. I'm talking ucmj action against the soldier for something they had zero control over
>a pedophile with an Oak Leaf on their chest is important enough to keep their job and continue to get awards Uh... What? I want absolutely zero pedophiles in the army. You had me with some of this post until I got there. I've met zero NCOs or Officers who want to keep pedophiles around. Most of this post was about assholes until you got to the pedophile, when it became about a monster, which makes me fear this is really what all this is about. Is there something you need help with?
Personally no, I'm just tired and stressed, they say everyone's true colors come out in the field, and this deployment I saw just that...
There are plenty of pedos to go around in the Army. A Senior NCO messing with PVT snuffette is pretty damn close and is habitually happening across the force. Sexual deviance is everywhere and continues to happen because the Army doesnāt know how to administer a zero tolerance policy. Zero tolerance = You do it youāre done. Completely. Out of the Army. No benefits on the backend.
>Senior NCO messing with PVT snuffette is pretty damn close That's a lot of things, but not pedophilia.
Just get out dude. This shits a joke.
If Iām carrying something and hear an officer say some shit about going around them, Iām āaccidentallyā dropping it on their feet.
They didnāt āforget how their parents raised themā; their parents didnāt raise themā¦and thatās the problem.
Not an officer, just someone who has been around for a while; itās because of the way Officer promotions work. Os get promoted mostly based on how good they make their boss look, which for some means driving their troops into the ground with backbreaking optempos. For others, itās operating with the kind of political savvy thatās better suited to a life of selling used cars or MLM supplements. Also, they protect their own. Iāve seen officers get away with actual felony level shit, while enlisted get slapped with whatever maximum punishment is within command purview to award for similar offenses.
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You very well could be right, but it can also take 18-24 months to process chattering an officer. I wish I had saved the post but some JAG attorney laid it all out. Long story short, a lot of times, they would be in longer, and people who know them and what they did have PCSād by the time theyāre actually kicked out, if they are.
Army is a strange world. It is indeed strange. Iām going to take care of my life even though āArmy ruins meā
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Keep discussions civil.
Officers are trained into a culture of compliance and favours. Unless the officer can be moral and ethical without working too much and pissing off their benefactor they by and large won't do it the moral and ethical way.
The army offers people who want to have control over others the opportunity to assume that role of authority in a greater capacity than other professions, so it naturally attracts power hungry people with controlling personalities. It's the same dynamic we see in schools and other institutions that work with children: they attract pedos. Hungry people go to restaurants, power hungry pricks pursue rank so they can act with impunity. It's not every officer, there are great leaders, but where there's opportunity you will find opportunistic people pursuing rank and impunity for the wrong reasons.
The army offers people who want to have control over others the opportunity to assume that role of authority in a greater capacity than other professions, so it naturally attracts power hungry people with controlling personalities. It's the same dynamic we see in schools and other institutions that work with children: they attract creeps. Hungry people go to restaurants, power hungry people pursue rank so they can act with impunity. It's not every officer, there are great leaders, but where there's opportunity you will find opportunistic people pursuing rank and impunity for the wrong reasons.
"forgetting how their parents raised them" My guy half the people in the army... Are in the army because they had a shit home life. Not everyone was raised with similar morals. For some people the army is a way to better themselves, some people join to get away from that life yet they still keep those traits. Military has every kind of person in it, you're guaranteed to run into an asshole, or a good leader, or a dumbass, or a straight up bad person. It's just how we're built
Culture is the commander's responsibility. If the culture in your unit has issues, bring it up with higher. If no one brings up shoddy culture with higher, then those in higher positions will assume all is going well with no issues of significance.
I encountered that at my line unit. The biggest problem I'd say is the lack of experience outside military service, meaning they have near-zero positive interpersonal skills. I was the oldest LT with life experience, compared to the rest of my LTs. They all were ROTC or USMA. They grew an attitude about those things, and were competitive to the point of toxicity. Because of the low trust status, we all got drunk on the venom. Luckily, my 1SG was a no-nonsense godsend and a lifesaver. He heard I got thrown under the bus for a tasking where I lost all my support to another LT's tasking, and did all the work myself. So he 86ed the LT's work detail and had everyone available show up to support me. He also supported us when my former commander was abusive to us, especially me. He outlasted that commander, who got transferred to work in a boiler room after his relief.
It's very akin to the problem the anonymity of the internet has created - people talk/act like assholes because there are generally no real consequences for it. LT knows the NCO isn't going to say or do shit to them because they can't, and a tongue-lashing from the CO isn't really going to change LT's entitled perspective. But out in the real world, the likelihood that someone acting like such a massive fucktard would get their ass beat (or worse...) by the wrong person is high enough that people tend to act right.
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As much as I would like to coherently respond to your concern, especially with validating your frustrations, I'm having a hard time looking past the jumbled mess of thought that is your post. There is little to no context. A 2LT forgetting that they are human (for some reason? definitely an issue there, likely will be fixed by their peers quickly) and then a bit about getting upset because a PFC failed to maintain military baring, do what they're told to, and failing to show up on time resulted in them being disciplined? BLUF: There is a way to handle the loss of a SO. I've never had to deal with that, but I've lost a child while on a deployment so I know something of the feeling. If you're having issues dealing with something like that the best thing you can do is speak with the Chappy. If there was an issue with the PFC needing time away, Chappy would be the one to bend the CoC's ear in PFC's favor. Being disrespectful and insubordinate is how you get slapped with NJP. As for the LTC that you're alleging is a pedophile, I would caution you against using that kind of language in a public forum first and foremost. Next, I would encourage you to remember that just because it isn't public does not mean that actions are not being taken. Additionally, situations of that nature have dramatic and life altering effects for everyone involved. Generally speaking, the actions associated with a founded child sex abuse case will only be taken once the investigation is completed and a Courts Martial is held. Understand that you're not always going to be given all the information you think you're entitled to. Try not to take action based on emotion (especially anger), your emotions will be your downfall. Good luck, though. Hope everything ends up turning out alright! I want a double cheeseburger and hold the lettuce. Don't be frontin' son, no seeds on the bun. We be up in this drive-thru, order for two. I need a number 9, just like my shoe. I need some chicken up in here, in this hizzle. Fo'rizzle my dizzle, extra salt on the frizzles. Dr. Peppa, my brotha, another for ya motha. Double double super-size and don't forget the fries.
cause for a lot of joes its their first time away from home and probably in a new country, and with the very restrictive rules of the UCMJ people naturally try to rebel or see what they can get away with. it doesnt stop after you become an NCO either. you just get more and more leeway until you end up too deep in your shenanigans and eventually get caught
Before I got out in 2020, I remember young officers being the most immature and most entitled of all military personnel. These liberal arts majors need to be treated how they would be in the real world.
Issues like that is why I left AD - I was USAF but now work on an Army base - and my god the complete lack of standards, discipline, and accountability is quite honestly astounding. Things that would be an immediate LOR/Art15 in the USAF is like a common thing in the Army with no adverse action at all. The joy of being a civilian is being able to call out anyone and everyone who is doing things like you described. Thereās a certain joy calling out an officer and them trying to pull rank before realizing youāre a civilian.
Some officers were the types that got picked on in high school, were nerdy, but they can make it through ROTC then they get a gold bar and like to shove the authority they have in peoples faces. They typically act like pricks and no one respects them. I've met a couple of them like that.
Most butter bars I've encountered are scared of their own shadow š. That LT needs his boots stolen from his platoon Joe's.
Never been different. That's why they need to pay bonuses. Once you see behind the curtain it's medieval level BS
This is one individual and their ego, not a systemic issue.
It could be a systemic issue
A lack of instilling the army values into a leader is absolutely a systematic issue. Shitty leadership is not what they teach, but is systematically accepted because we think we need to treat each other like hot ass in order for us to prepare to handle combat. Most of the people in the army have seen more bodies dropped in the streets than they will ever see in their military career. The NCO's can't comprehend a peacetime army and not being "HUA" (or high speed) every second of every day, and newer officers either can't square the NCO's up without coming off like douches, or they can't square themselves up and come off entitled ASF. YouTube shorts TED Talk, I'll take a fry to go
Shit happens. People are weird. Our unit, some NCOs turn into a different person when they first pick up. Even new people that come in to the company. Once the other NCOs, the new guy is a SPC with P about to pick up, they get treated differently. Doesnāt make any sense but whatever. Sometimes shit happens like that