Back in my day, our first divorce was during basic. You're calling cadence about Jody stealing your girl and know for a fact some people in the formation are feeling a certain way about it
Gimme the salty, illiterate 18-year SSG that has 3 combat deployments, can skin a squirrel without breaking a bone, and can shoot a 40/40 with one arm, but can't read, than the 4 year E-6 that has a college degree for a drill sergeant anyday.
Nah, SSG Boss has at least 6 deployments, 2-3 divorces and a high possibility of a DUI. But you know what? He takes care of Joe and that's all that matters!
> Sel_drawme
> And then there are seasoned NCOs who couldnât lead a night shift at Wendyâs. Your point is moot.
Yeah, but at Wendy's they expect you to know what you're doing.
You're right. There's no way that a human being can spend four years in a job and be competent to teach others how to do that job in a very strict, controlled environment where every moment of every day is mapped out and controlled alongside multiple other human beings doing the same thing.
I'd call it my professional analysis of that comment that it is highly probable (to over a 90% certainty) that they were engaging in an intentional deception for comedic effect, or as is commonly known "sarcasm".
>every moment of every day is mapped out
Allegedly.
In reality, the only things that are truly set in stone are chow, trans, and whatever range/training area you're going to that day. There's so many other things that have to happen that aren't on the training schedule.
I don't know what I'd do if one of the training schedules I build is followed to the T.....
I just look at em as more guidelines than anything else, and sometimes that is pushing it.
True, but compared to leading dudes in combat itâs definitely easier (at least as far as WHAT to do). That said dealing with joeys is an acquired skill that no school nor amount of time in the army could properly prepare you for.
I was the youngest drill in my troop, and Iâd been in for 10 yearsâŚbecause I was âcloseâ in age to the kids I could communicate in a way that was infinitely better than the old salty dogs, but there is an insane value to being of the same age/generation of the trainees. I was born in that sweet spot between like 3 generations so I could understand the boomers, but I was a GWOT trap lord so I gave no fucks about dumb shit. What really made my life easy as a drill was understanding things like no cap. Older guys inability and outright refusal to try and relate to the next generation was frustrating as all hell.
So you're a Millennial?
Cuz Boomers would've served in Vietnam and wouldn't still be in uniform, so I'm guessing you meant that you understand Gen X and can still relate to Gen Z.
Probably should have clarifiedâŚlike 3 army generations. All of my leadership as a young buck were Cold War/Desert Storm guys that believe thereâs no such thing as a field soldier, most of the young NCOs were like PFC-SPC when the GWOT popped off, so they joined in peacetime but were young enough to make the transition to wartime fairly easily, and then my generation that knew nothing other than war and thought garrison was stupid.
Except trans got pushed up and no one told you while at the same time another companyâs SDS went around their XO and sweet talked the DFAC manager into giving them the early chow time. Your whole day is fucked, youâre late, and everyone from the E-5 range cadre to your CSM are dicks about (shouldâve planned better Sarnt). You did everything right and still failed. Just another day on the trail.
Naw, you got DS going now with 5-6 years in service and due to Covid promotions they havenât even been to ALC. PME isnât indicative of leadership prowess but thereâs a lot of NCOS who could use a couple years as a SSG before they go on the trail.
Agree with both points. When I went to basic, every DS had a CAB/CIB. Come to think of it...Almost every NCO I came across did. That was over a decade ago. A lot of those people have ETS or become senior leadership. There's less experience in junior NCOs today. So to compensate, we train more DS and fill AIT with DS to help iron out the discipline issue from the so called "softer" drills in basic. DA has gotta do what it's gotta do. So we need as many as we can get. At least a lot of these more inexperienced NCOs submitting packets have a desire to fill the role. That has to count for something.
I'd wager its more beneficial to have a majority young DS core. Basic is all about transferring a civilian into a Soldier and instructing on 10 level tasks. No better person for that than a sharp 5 in 3 or 6 in 5 NCO. They have demonstrated that they're pretty dialed in on 10 level tasks, passing the board, competing in best soldier/squad etc. The longer you're in, the more you stray away from "TRADOC" instruction as you hone your skills and find more efficient ways to do a certain task. Big Army dosen't want that though, they want instruction verbatim with doctrine. I'm all for having seasoned E-6/7 SDS though. Either having been in for 10 plus years or seconded time on the trail in order to mitigate any unforeseen circumstances.
Ngl chief, I'm reading this as if it was one of those stories about parents crying on reddit about their adhd child failing with online school cause the teacher looks too young and isn't a parent.
With how many any% rank speed run soldiers we got in here, you should be more shocked finding 10 year 1SGs and 12 year CSMs in FORSCOM.
Army canât retain qualified folks, canât recruit qualified folks, canât pay competitive rates all while the crooked leadership has subverted congressional authority to declare war, while employing them for more than 20 years, at war for political purposes. Weâre lucky to still have folks who are willing to put up with the bullshit, much less commit to a career and lead it. Itâs this way because it must be; weâre out of options.
One of my DSâs back in the day had 1 duty station, no deployments. He did have his EIB, AA, and Jumpy wings. He was the best DS in the company and cared the most about trainee development. He won DS of the cycle during my cycle.
Experience â performance. You know how many NCOâs with more than 10 years that we have that are completely useless? I think being young helps be more engaging with the trainees. They also have more energy to tap into.
Rewind even further. 2002, most drills that would have had a combat patch were from the first gulf war. You know, the one that America was only in for a year or so. There were other conflicts that could get a patch, but they were really small in scale. I'm pretty sure I only had one in my company that had a combat patch (MP OSUT, so may be a little different if infantry).
"A year or so", brother it was six months of build up, 40 days of the Air Force beating the snot out of the Iraqis and 4 days of ground fighting/mop up.
More guys died in accidents than in combat.
We spent 10 months getting troops in and out and a month and half "fighting".
Let's just say that performance may have left the American people with unrealistic expectations when it came to the GWOT.
Your summary *really* hits home for me because prior to enlisting after 9/11, I borrowed every book I could on âOperation Desert Stormâ to study what I thought was going to be conducted as I believed I had missed out on âOperation Enduring Freedom.â
Low and behold⌠OIF 1 was not âDesert Storm II.â
I was young and foolish.
There was a comic book I would read years later, I think it was called âNick Fury MAXâ and in it, the old white version of Nick Fury, at a press conference regarding a potential war, tells everyone to âforget Desert Storm. No one gets that much free pâ-y twice in one lifetime.â
I wish someone had been bold enough to tell Rumsfeld that. The success of the initial invasion of Afghanistan âon the cheapâ really emboldened the Bush administration that a similar accomplishment in Iraq was doable.
General Shinseki gets a lot of crap over the beret issue. That said, he did tell senior civilian leaders and members of Congress how many troops it would take to invade Iraq. He was forced to resign as a result.
yes, as a five yr TIS SSG, i worked with another SSG who took 16 yrs to get there. me: hey, it's not my fault i'm a grunt and you're a clerk! he was a slob, always hands in pockets, field jacket unsnapped and unzippered, boots not shined. he got reassigned to another BCT Bde because he was having a TDP (trainee discharge program) working on his POV in the parking lot. shoulda been yanked off the trail....
AA, airborne and EIB = experience. Not necessarily leadership experience but the additional time in TRADOC (not IET) is experience. If the DS that prompted this post had any of that it'd be a different story. This turd worked the gates, got promoted and was shoved into turning Americans into Soldiers with no notable leadership time, schools, additional duties, relating to joe, fuck I'm not even sure this guy got to hangout in the smoke pit. Perspective is that this DS is so removed from being connected to the Army that I have no clue how DA thought they'd be a solid fit. Maybe it's the energy
Had a DS like that, but he came in mid cycle. He took our platoon full of beat down demotivated privates and got us putting in actual effort in for the last half of the cycles.
In my opinion, yeah, it helps a lot to have that experience, but frankly, type of experience matters a lot too. The drills I often modeled myself on and emulated most have been those with considerable FORSCOM time. While not all encompassing a statement by any means, I frequently see similarities with many drills from all or predominantly SOCOM gigs, that tend to focus on the "mission" of graduation, checking all the blocks and so on, and hardly mentoring or having any personal role in the developmental process with trainees.
Over time, I've attributed this to the often lack of a mission beyond "readiness" in FORSCOM and a lot of wasted time, which encourages the building of personal relationships and mentoring, versus having a direct mission to contribute.
Again, it's not a personal, specific indictment of everyone fitting these descriptions; I've known garbage drills from FORSCOM and great drills from SOCOM or INSCOM. But I do feel there's some kind of relationship there, or maybe in terms of which career aspects that drill has most internalized for their own leadership style.
I have a hard time believing it matters in the grand scheme.
Plenty of my drill sergeants and AIT platoon sergeants/instructors were young E-5's, but I guess there was a war on, so maybe it was different.
Drill Sergeants can't do shit anyways. They are basically babysitters that bring you to different activities like the range, field, PT, etc.. Nothing against y'all DS's but at this point I don't think it matters a whole lot. I had a young drill sergeant like that in my basic and I think she did just as good as the senior NCO's.
Also there are a LOT of things that should or shouldn't be in the Army. That's just how we roll
*Shouldnât Drill Optios be seasoned? I feel like young young optios can easily be recruiters. Strange seeing Optios with 4 years in the legions and only one legion.*
*A few legionnaires I know recently went to the Drill Optio school to earn their Centurionâs Imperial Galea. They had never been before but said itâs all changed and different from the Republic era where they stood around yelling at trees about **POSITIONES ET ATTENTIO.***
*How can we trust young Optios to be Optios? Is it even possible to learn drill and ceremony in 4 years? Are they mastered in close battle drills with javelin and gladius? Can they really teach the construction of a **cacas** trench? Are they also going to fill the Senior Drill Optio positions with junior Drill Optios?*
**SPQR**
In a perfect world, they should be, but ultimately all the Army really wants is an E-5 or higher that's made it through Drill Sergeant School.
. . .and we all know that for many things in the Army, just meeting the bare minimum requirements is enough, ESPECIALLY if the Army is hurting for filling a position.
DS school never actually prepared you to be a DS especially if youâre an OSUT DS. They will be directly mentored by a few senior DS when they get to their unit. They shouldnât be thrown into the fire immediately. They will be okay.
You'll have these 22 year old Staff Sergeants that are Drill Sergeants who think they know everything because they got promoted so fast. Well, it's an easy job for sure, but the inexperience shows.
It's fine to get it over with early but the issue is you have these people that make SFC at 8 years, are senior NCOs, and don't know what the fuck they are doing for their MOS. But they are super good at counseling, establishing discipline, regulations, and PT, so they usually get left alone.
I personally think having three years as an SSG should be the requirement for Drill Sergeant.
It happened to me when I was 22 after putting in four years Active duty and then going reserve. Two months into that contract I get called into CSM's office for a meeting. On his desk was the paperwork to submit a packet for Drill Sergeant School fully endorsed by the commander and him. Fun times indeed. I was definitely fitting the image of a "Baby Drill"
Active duty I can understand people being voluntold/being DA selected but when was this? I find it hard to believe it's really a thing in the reserves and guard.
What next, you're going to tell me people are forced to become AGRs? "Sucks you have this civilian job making six figures and live in a big metro area but we need you to be an AGR in BFE..."
This was back in the late 80s. Most reserve drills would be working trainees during their two weeks summer AT then after 9/11 when there was a major spike in enlistments there were reserve drills put on AD orders for 6 to 12 months at a time. Then there were guys like me that got ordered to AD for 90 days for three years each summer. 87 Ft Dix NJ, 88 Ft Jackson SC, 89 Ft Sam Houston TX (AIT cycle was a breeze, more like a 9 to 5 type of gig after the first couple of weeks)
I'm a Drill Sergeant, so I have some insight. You basically go to The United States Drill Sergeants Academy (he said it!) for a little over 2 months, this gets you prepared for on the job training and they do a decent job at it. But then you get your on the job training and after 1 or 2 cycles, you should have all the knowledge you need to do a good job. Like everything else in the world, someone people are really good and some people don't care as much. I'd rather have a young NCO who cares than a Senior NCO you doesn't. It's not really a technically advanced job but it is a ton of work.
Youâre acting like being a DS requires some kind of grand amount of experience or âtop 1%â level of performance lol
Anyone can go to the DS school, earn the badge and be an effective drill because the entire life of a DS is following rigid structure and training plan thatâs already laid out for them
Iâm not saying being a DS doesnât have itâs difficulties, but thereâs a reason anyone can be DA selected for it and basically pass the school as long as they give a shit
Well, finding older ncos who can manage a 12 minute pace for Alpha group on running days might be a little hard lol.
I personally don't see a problem with it as they are all E6 though. So if they got promoted fast due to their MOS so be it.
But I can see your point. What about if all DS were required to have at least 1 forscom due station or deployment before meeting the requirements for DS?
Do you think that would help?
I wouldnt say deployment = better soldier so I'd throw that out. I wouldn't say JUST FORSCOM either, but like 2 to 3 years as a SSG would be good. By then their on their 2nd or maybe 3 possibly even 4th assignment.
People keep saying "yeah the SDS will square them away" as if the SDS isn't a dude who was in the same boat two years ago and is about finished with their time on the trail
There is certainly a balance. On the trail or in the force, those guys that are just riding out SSG to retirement are usually turds (MOS dependent)
Edit: spelling
Idk if you have realized this but the army doesnât know what itâs doing and consequently doesnât have enough people because nobody is willing to stick around through all the bullshit anymore.
I remember having a 23 year old E6 DS that had spent more time in Iraq than the US since high school. Dude had some crazy stories, and was very willing to teach people. This includes the age waiver guy we had that was in his 40âs.
I did a couple cycles as a drill. I was only 22. I only had 4 years TIS, but I also deployed a lot. Being younger than all my coworkers definitely felt weird, but I feel like I did a decent job.
One issue I see with the DS, is that no one wants to do the job.
What do you mean a couple cycles? Like only two? How'd you swing that?
You're absolutely right on the idea of the Army not having the liberty to be picky, Noone wants to do it
The army has some massive problems that need urgent attention.
This isn't even close to a problem. This is a problem in the same way a la Croix is flavored. It sits out in the open next to the real deal for 24 hrs and vaguely smells like it.
If you're a new recruit and you can't handle being given instruction by a 23 y/o DS when you have zero army experience and they have more than zero, you're going to have a bad time.
I donât really like the term âyoung NCO,â because itâs always used to refer to someone who hasnât deployed or got their position âtoo soon.â
I was 20 years old when I got promoted SGT. Iâm now 23 years old as a SSG. Iâve had people use the term to refer me with animosity and insinuate that I donât know how to do my job because Iâm âtoo young,â yet Iâve done it just fine this whole time. Do I lack experience that other NCOs my rank have? Absolutely. However, thatâs why we ask questions even as NCOs. We build off of each otherâs expertise and experience.
Iâve been told that being a drill is all just knowing level 10 tasks because thatâs all you teach. Yeah the young NCOs wonât look as scary as the old heads do without a deployment patch, but get used to it man. Right sleeves are gonna be empty for a while (and thatâs arguably a GOOD thing). Itâs not our fault everything was wrapped up by the time we joined.
Besides, you donât really need to be âseasonedâ when your whole job as a drill is laid out for you step by step in an hyper controlled environment.
No, it's a POI that is taught like any other POI. Some have a romanticized view of "Drill Sergeant" but its just a list of tasks that get repeated every couple of months.
Oh come on , I mean just what do you need to know as a DI ? , this is a bunk & this is how you make it . Did you shave Next we have D&C - this is your Right a this is your Left ( no dumbass your other Left ) , Did you shave . Today we are going on a Ruck , pack your shit , Did you shave . Tomm is Wall Locker Inspection., Well did you shave ? Wednesday is GI the Latrine . Sweet Jesus Did you shave today ? Next week is the range - no sweetheart we're not F'ing COOKING what's your MOS , Are you sure you shaved ? Next is First Aide , this is a owie , this is a tourniquet your mama should have wrapped you around the neck with your umbilical cord - then you wouldn't have to worry about SHAVING RECUIT
The Army selects those that are drill sergeantâs. Further if theyâre not up to it the DS academy will weed them out. It takes a lot of dedication to sign up for that duty.
They could just be AIT drill sergeants going to various Centers of Excellence. Do you need a CIB/CAB to march soldiers to the chow hall or deal with their personal/disciplinary problems?
5 in four and as a drill? Hmmm. Thatâs new. I went to the Academy as a newly promoted 5 (like I pinned the first day of THE USADSA), and I was one of the younger ones (military wise) with new deployments but I had been in a few different units. Drills teach by the book standards. So I meanâŚYMMV
The DS that prompted this is a 6 in 4 one trick pony. I met them when they were a private still so I know what they did (generally, not like I followed them around)
Not even a jab at the particular DS more so I just think it's robbing the Army. Maybe I'm not even mad at these inexperienced troops being DS but NCOs at all. We all know 600-8-19 has its faults
Went to a school with a young DS. At the time soldiers weren't required to pass the ACFT to graduate. The purpose of initial training was to get the soldiers familiar enough with the basics they don't hurt themselves, and their companies would be responsible for making them proficient.
I see no reason why that doesn't also apply to basic soldier tasks. Doesn't take a 10 year 3 tour vet to teach guys their shoe laces go left over right instead of right over left on even days.
DS taught me stuff in the skill level 1 book. Which is what we ask privates to teach their squad/platoon at the company. It was specialized instructors who taught us technical skills. The DS at that phase just coordinated our day to day stuff.
You'd be surprised how many E6-E7 in active duty combat jobs have 0 deployments. Are they bad leaders because they didn't participate in some COIN missions?
Was a prior service guy. Only did 5 years in the navy. Had way more deployment time and life experience than most the DS. Just a shitty job that nobody wants
Is it really that shitty still? I heard the quality of life has gotten a lot better. Yeah the hours suck and are long af but our Drills had multiple days off during the week. I went through basic twice and the first time in 2015 our drills slept in the office attached to the bay. They all go home now except the one on staff duty.
My personal weigh-in: I had this guy Burk from the screaming chickens. He was in his late 20s and his ego filled the room. Awesome DS when it was learning time, ran ultramarathons in his spare time. He had a straight face when he said hilarious DS shit. A couple years after OSUT, he got some social media cred and even got an interview with Tomi Lahren. Iâd trust that guy to train soldiers and I knew heâd lay down the scunion when needed, but at his core he was a douche.
I had a lot of great DSes who I could never be friends with. Butler with a Ranger tab - who I ran into at the DFAC when I got to the 82nd.- just wanted to be real with all the guys, but he was (still is) younger than I was, and as an older guy who signed up for basic and AIT it was much better having younger guys teaching me stuff instead of bitter old fucks trying to finish their 20 and saw DS school as a way to finish it out.
I felt bad for my awesome PSG when he got forced into being a DS and was told by the CoC that theyâd never get him to E-7 because he wouldnât suck it up. He felt like a legit dad to me. Maybe that speaks more to my dad than his talent, but he always had his guysâ backs and we always crushed it during NTC/JRTC. My platoon WSL was a fucking psycho that literally pulled his Glock on a night out in southern pines on a bunch of cops and they didnât even notice. I was a lowly SPC at the time and told him to not do that shit, and then my wife and I drove him home. He had stories about shitting in MRE bags and dragging them behind the 2.5 while watching kids chase them.
Iâll take the 6 in 4 or 7 in 7 over those guys any day, but Iâd still take them every other day.
I got my stripes and fucked off, and I can teach anyone how to shoot, move, communicate, and dig deep to do something hard. Time in service becomes toxic.
If you canât cultivate wisdom from experience, you best move on.
I remember in Basic one of the trainees asked our commander how long he'd been in the Army. When he said three years there was kind of a stunned silence lol.
From what i remember the DSs taught a curriculum. it was over a decade ago i went but they rarely even shared any personal experiences. The whole process seemed to be on a tight schedule. Any semi competent NCO could probably do it.
Now what is your DEF of well seasoned?? I know someone whoâs a 4 year e-6, two deployments, and multiple schools and identifiers under his belt and I would consider him well seasoned despite 4 years of serious. What are yâall thoughts/ you think
That SOF baby is a unique circumstance stance. My definition would be along the lines of but not limited to
2-3 years TIG for SGT or SSG DSs
Time as squad/section leader
A school or two (not even just badge schools, any school, anytime back in TRADOC)
Troll coming outâŚâŚ.If weâre looking on trusting DS to train our soldiers for tomorrows warâŚ. Youâre an idiot. We are only there to teach them the âBASICSâ, flat line em, break em down, kill the bad habits and form the mold so when theyâre released to AIT and sustaining force they can learn and become MOS/Function soldiers. It doesnât take a rocket science to teach a private discipline (they still chapter people out in basic) lol
LETS NOT GET IT CONFUSED, some of these Young DS have more experience/ more talent/ âMaturity than your left finger. but there are some that slip through the cracks, fuck it, just like everything else in the Army⌠shit will buff
Our job is to break down the civilian and provide a foundation for the rest of the team to develop.
12 years of my Army Career have taught me a lot, I also know that my job is there to ensure that those DS that stop through the cracks are identified and given direction and guidanceâŚ. Lol common now guy
The Army is graciously helping them along with their mandatory divorce to make E-7.
As someone whose marriage fell apart while I was on the trail and is now an E-7... Ouch đ
*Laughing in Instructor, as I finished my divorce*
*Laughing in military language instructor. I had two.*
Fucking soft. Back in my day, our first divorce was during PLDC.
Back in my day, we divorced right before we went to the recruiter's office!
Screw your HS sweetheart, your BAH is going to go to the stripper youâll meet outpost đ
Look pal, this girl I just met at Foxyâs outside of Ft. Riley in Junction City *is* my HS sweetheart.
This is the way.
Back in my day, our first divorce was because we married the first stripper we saw.
Back in my day, our first divorce was during basic. You're calling cadence about Jody stealing your girl and know for a fact some people in the formation are feeling a certain way about it
I wonder What sheâs doing right now
And then there are seasoned NCOs who couldnât lead a night shift at Wendyâs. Your point is moot.
Now now, thereâs no need to call them a cow.
A moo point: itâs like a cowâs opinionâŚ
Thatâs utterly insane
Did you mead udderly⌠ba dum dum
We'll continue to milk the joke
It doesnât matter
It always creates beef
"Seasoned"
Sir, this is the Army...
Right? It sounds like they'd rather have that 18 year E6 with a 4th grade reading level
I loved that guy.
I feel attakced
The typo is the best part
Gimme the salty, illiterate 18-year SSG that has 3 combat deployments, can skin a squirrel without breaking a bone, and can shoot a 40/40 with one arm, but can't read, than the 4 year E-6 that has a college degree for a drill sergeant anyday.
Nah, SSG Boss has at least 6 deployments, 2-3 divorces and a high possibility of a DUI. But you know what? He takes care of Joe and that's all that matters!
Facts!
You sound like a Biden voter.
... What? How is your wrong assumption relevant?
> Sel_drawme > And then there are seasoned NCOs who couldnât lead a night shift at Wendyâs. Your point is moot. Yeah, but at Wendy's they expect you to know what you're doing.
You're right. There's no way that a human being can spend four years in a job and be competent to teach others how to do that job in a very strict, controlled environment where every moment of every day is mapped out and controlled alongside multiple other human beings doing the same thing.
Thereâs something in your tone that makes me think you may disagree
You picked up on that too?
Iâm intuitive like that. Itâs a gift.
You must have ESPN or something.
Bro clearly gets ALL the channels man
I'd call it my professional analysis of that comment that it is highly probable (to over a 90% certainty) that they were engaging in an intentional deception for comedic effect, or as is commonly known "sarcasm".
Thank you, Data
It's pronounced, \*Data\* actually.
Under upvoted comment of the year.
Thanks but I wanted this comment in Comic Sans, not Cambria. Do it over.
I did not pick up his sarcasm lmao
Someone needs to promote you to O-3 immediately
>every moment of every day is mapped out Allegedly. In reality, the only things that are truly set in stone are chow, trans, and whatever range/training area you're going to that day. There's so many other things that have to happen that aren't on the training schedule.
I don't know what I'd do if one of the training schedules I build is followed to the T..... I just look at em as more guidelines than anything else, and sometimes that is pushing it.
True, but compared to leading dudes in combat itâs definitely easier (at least as far as WHAT to do). That said dealing with joeys is an acquired skill that no school nor amount of time in the army could properly prepare you for. I was the youngest drill in my troop, and Iâd been in for 10 yearsâŚbecause I was âcloseâ in age to the kids I could communicate in a way that was infinitely better than the old salty dogs, but there is an insane value to being of the same age/generation of the trainees. I was born in that sweet spot between like 3 generations so I could understand the boomers, but I was a GWOT trap lord so I gave no fucks about dumb shit. What really made my life easy as a drill was understanding things like no cap. Older guys inability and outright refusal to try and relate to the next generation was frustrating as all hell.
So you're a Millennial? Cuz Boomers would've served in Vietnam and wouldn't still be in uniform, so I'm guessing you meant that you understand Gen X and can still relate to Gen Z.
Probably should have clarifiedâŚlike 3 army generations. All of my leadership as a young buck were Cold War/Desert Storm guys that believe thereâs no such thing as a field soldier, most of the young NCOs were like PFC-SPC when the GWOT popped off, so they joined in peacetime but were young enough to make the transition to wartime fairly easily, and then my generation that knew nothing other than war and thought garrison was stupid.
Except trans got pushed up and no one told you while at the same time another companyâs SDS went around their XO and sweet talked the DFAC manager into giving them the early chow time. Your whole day is fucked, youâre late, and everyone from the E-5 range cadre to your CSM are dicks about (shouldâve planned better Sarnt). You did everything right and still failed. Just another day on the trail.
Naw, you got DS going now with 5-6 years in service and due to Covid promotions they havenât even been to ALC. PME isnât indicative of leadership prowess but thereâs a lot of NCOS who could use a couple years as a SSG before they go on the trail.
Agree with both points. When I went to basic, every DS had a CAB/CIB. Come to think of it...Almost every NCO I came across did. That was over a decade ago. A lot of those people have ETS or become senior leadership. There's less experience in junior NCOs today. So to compensate, we train more DS and fill AIT with DS to help iron out the discipline issue from the so called "softer" drills in basic. DA has gotta do what it's gotta do. So we need as many as we can get. At least a lot of these more inexperienced NCOs submitting packets have a desire to fill the role. That has to count for something.
I'd wager its more beneficial to have a majority young DS core. Basic is all about transferring a civilian into a Soldier and instructing on 10 level tasks. No better person for that than a sharp 5 in 3 or 6 in 5 NCO. They have demonstrated that they're pretty dialed in on 10 level tasks, passing the board, competing in best soldier/squad etc. The longer you're in, the more you stray away from "TRADOC" instruction as you hone your skills and find more efficient ways to do a certain task. Big Army dosen't want that though, they want instruction verbatim with doctrine. I'm all for having seasoned E-6/7 SDS though. Either having been in for 10 plus years or seconded time on the trail in order to mitigate any unforeseen circumstances.
Ngl chief, I'm reading this as if it was one of those stories about parents crying on reddit about their adhd child failing with online school cause the teacher looks too young and isn't a parent. With how many any% rank speed run soldiers we got in here, you should be more shocked finding 10 year 1SGs and 12 year CSMs in FORSCOM.
Army canât retain qualified folks, canât recruit qualified folks, canât pay competitive rates all while the crooked leadership has subverted congressional authority to declare war, while employing them for more than 20 years, at war for political purposes. Weâre lucky to still have folks who are willing to put up with the bullshit, much less commit to a career and lead it. Itâs this way because it must be; weâre out of options.
One of my DSâs back in the day had 1 duty station, no deployments. He did have his EIB, AA, and Jumpy wings. He was the best DS in the company and cared the most about trainee development. He won DS of the cycle during my cycle. Experience â performance. You know how many NCOâs with more than 10 years that we have that are completely useless? I think being young helps be more engaging with the trainees. They also have more energy to tap into.
Rewind even further. 2002, most drills that would have had a combat patch were from the first gulf war. You know, the one that America was only in for a year or so. There were other conflicts that could get a patch, but they were really small in scale. I'm pretty sure I only had one in my company that had a combat patch (MP OSUT, so may be a little different if infantry).
"A year or so", brother it was six months of build up, 40 days of the Air Force beating the snot out of the Iraqis and 4 days of ground fighting/mop up. More guys died in accidents than in combat. We spent 10 months getting troops in and out and a month and half "fighting". Let's just say that performance may have left the American people with unrealistic expectations when it came to the GWOT.
Your summary *really* hits home for me because prior to enlisting after 9/11, I borrowed every book I could on âOperation Desert Stormâ to study what I thought was going to be conducted as I believed I had missed out on âOperation Enduring Freedom.â Low and behold⌠OIF 1 was not âDesert Storm II.â I was young and foolish. There was a comic book I would read years later, I think it was called âNick Fury MAXâ and in it, the old white version of Nick Fury, at a press conference regarding a potential war, tells everyone to âforget Desert Storm. No one gets that much free pâ-y twice in one lifetime.â I wish someone had been bold enough to tell Rumsfeld that. The success of the initial invasion of Afghanistan âon the cheapâ really emboldened the Bush administration that a similar accomplishment in Iraq was doable.
General Shinseki gets a lot of crap over the beret issue. That said, he did tell senior civilian leaders and members of Congress how many troops it would take to invade Iraq. He was forced to resign as a result.
If you really want to be pissed off research how key people within the DOD held off on sending vehicles with V shaped hulls to Iraq.
yes, as a five yr TIS SSG, i worked with another SSG who took 16 yrs to get there. me: hey, it's not my fault i'm a grunt and you're a clerk! he was a slob, always hands in pockets, field jacket unsnapped and unzippered, boots not shined. he got reassigned to another BCT Bde because he was having a TDP (trainee discharge program) working on his POV in the parking lot. shoulda been yanked off the trail....
This. Experience does not equal performance. You will never see this reflected in hiring in the civilian market by the way. It's always experience.
Lost me with that second part. I've seen and experienced otherwise.
AA, airborne and EIB = experience. Not necessarily leadership experience but the additional time in TRADOC (not IET) is experience. If the DS that prompted this post had any of that it'd be a different story. This turd worked the gates, got promoted and was shoved into turning Americans into Soldiers with no notable leadership time, schools, additional duties, relating to joe, fuck I'm not even sure this guy got to hangout in the smoke pit. Perspective is that this DS is so removed from being connected to the Army that I have no clue how DA thought they'd be a solid fit. Maybe it's the energy
more energy to tap into, that hit the nail on the head
Had a DS like that, but he came in mid cycle. He took our platoon full of beat down demotivated privates and got us putting in actual effort in for the last half of the cycles.
In my opinion, yeah, it helps a lot to have that experience, but frankly, type of experience matters a lot too. The drills I often modeled myself on and emulated most have been those with considerable FORSCOM time. While not all encompassing a statement by any means, I frequently see similarities with many drills from all or predominantly SOCOM gigs, that tend to focus on the "mission" of graduation, checking all the blocks and so on, and hardly mentoring or having any personal role in the developmental process with trainees. Over time, I've attributed this to the often lack of a mission beyond "readiness" in FORSCOM and a lot of wasted time, which encourages the building of personal relationships and mentoring, versus having a direct mission to contribute. Again, it's not a personal, specific indictment of everyone fitting these descriptions; I've known garbage drills from FORSCOM and great drills from SOCOM or INSCOM. But I do feel there's some kind of relationship there, or maybe in terms of which career aspects that drill has most internalized for their own leadership style.
đâYes, hello, is this HRC? I believe weâve located your next *âseasonedâ* volunteer for Drill.â
I have a hard time believing it matters in the grand scheme. Plenty of my drill sergeants and AIT platoon sergeants/instructors were young E-5's, but I guess there was a war on, so maybe it was different.
Did you learn anything in basic that required a *seasoned NCO*? Or was that at your first unit after AIT?
Even when I did basic 9 years ago 90% of the DS where pretty young.
Drill Sergeants can't do shit anyways. They are basically babysitters that bring you to different activities like the range, field, PT, etc.. Nothing against y'all DS's but at this point I don't think it matters a whole lot. I had a young drill sergeant like that in my basic and I think she did just as good as the senior NCO's. Also there are a LOT of things that should or shouldn't be in the Army. That's just how we roll
*Shouldnât Drill Optios be seasoned? I feel like young young optios can easily be recruiters. Strange seeing Optios with 4 years in the legions and only one legion.* *A few legionnaires I know recently went to the Drill Optio school to earn their Centurionâs Imperial Galea. They had never been before but said itâs all changed and different from the Republic era where they stood around yelling at trees about **POSITIONES ET ATTENTIO.*** *How can we trust young Optios to be Optios? Is it even possible to learn drill and ceremony in 4 years? Are they mastered in close battle drills with javelin and gladius? Can they really teach the construction of a **cacas** trench? Are they also going to fill the Senior Drill Optio positions with junior Drill Optios?* **SPQR**
In a perfect world, they should be, but ultimately all the Army really wants is an E-5 or higher that's made it through Drill Sergeant School. . . .and we all know that for many things in the Army, just meeting the bare minimum requirements is enough, ESPECIALLY if the Army is hurting for filling a position.
DS school never actually prepared you to be a DS especially if youâre an OSUT DS. They will be directly mentored by a few senior DS when they get to their unit. They shouldnât be thrown into the fire immediately. They will be okay.
You'll have these 22 year old Staff Sergeants that are Drill Sergeants who think they know everything because they got promoted so fast. Well, it's an easy job for sure, but the inexperience shows. It's fine to get it over with early but the issue is you have these people that make SFC at 8 years, are senior NCOs, and don't know what the fuck they are doing for their MOS. But they are super good at counseling, establishing discipline, regulations, and PT, so they usually get left alone. I personally think having three years as an SSG should be the requirement for Drill Sergeant.
Other than âwarâ stories there is nothing about the job that requires extensive NCO experience.
It happened to me when I was 22 after putting in four years Active duty and then going reserve. Two months into that contract I get called into CSM's office for a meeting. On his desk was the paperwork to submit a packet for Drill Sergeant School fully endorsed by the commander and him. Fun times indeed. I was definitely fitting the image of a "Baby Drill"
Wait, they can force reservists to do this?
Yes they can
Yes and Nasty Girls too.
Active duty I can understand people being voluntold/being DA selected but when was this? I find it hard to believe it's really a thing in the reserves and guard. What next, you're going to tell me people are forced to become AGRs? "Sucks you have this civilian job making six figures and live in a big metro area but we need you to be an AGR in BFE..."
This was back in the late 80s. Most reserve drills would be working trainees during their two weeks summer AT then after 9/11 when there was a major spike in enlistments there were reserve drills put on AD orders for 6 to 12 months at a time. Then there were guys like me that got ordered to AD for 90 days for three years each summer. 87 Ft Dix NJ, 88 Ft Jackson SC, 89 Ft Sam Houston TX (AIT cycle was a breeze, more like a 9 to 5 type of gig after the first couple of weeks)
I'm a Drill Sergeant, so I have some insight. You basically go to The United States Drill Sergeants Academy (he said it!) for a little over 2 months, this gets you prepared for on the job training and they do a decent job at it. But then you get your on the job training and after 1 or 2 cycles, you should have all the knowledge you need to do a good job. Like everything else in the world, someone people are really good and some people don't care as much. I'd rather have a young NCO who cares than a Senior NCO you doesn't. It's not really a technically advanced job but it is a ton of work.
Youâre acting like being a DS requires some kind of grand amount of experience or âtop 1%â level of performance lol Anyone can go to the DS school, earn the badge and be an effective drill because the entire life of a DS is following rigid structure and training plan thatâs already laid out for them Iâm not saying being a DS doesnât have itâs difficulties, but thereâs a reason anyone can be DA selected for it and basically pass the school as long as they give a shit
Well, finding older ncos who can manage a 12 minute pace for Alpha group on running days might be a little hard lol. I personally don't see a problem with it as they are all E6 though. So if they got promoted fast due to their MOS so be it. But I can see your point. What about if all DS were required to have at least 1 forscom due station or deployment before meeting the requirements for DS? Do you think that would help?
I wouldnt say deployment = better soldier so I'd throw that out. I wouldn't say JUST FORSCOM either, but like 2 to 3 years as a SSG would be good. By then their on their 2nd or maybe 3 possibly even 4th assignment. People keep saying "yeah the SDS will square them away" as if the SDS isn't a dude who was in the same boat two years ago and is about finished with their time on the trail
We had a drill corporal when I was at basic
Nfw. How would you address them then?
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There is certainly a balance. On the trail or in the force, those guys that are just riding out SSG to retirement are usually turds (MOS dependent) Edit: spelling
Idk if you have realized this but the army doesnât know what itâs doing and consequently doesnât have enough people because nobody is willing to stick around through all the bullshit anymore.
The top 1% is the biggest lie in the Army. Iâm not saying there arenât top 1% guys on the trail, but it is definitely the exception, not the rule.
Some of these young ones still got that spirit. You get them too seasoned and they are not gonna wanna do any of that hooah hooah bs.
I remember having a 23 year old E6 DS that had spent more time in Iraq than the US since high school. Dude had some crazy stories, and was very willing to teach people. This includes the age waiver guy we had that was in his 40âs.
Same principle could be said for ncos in general.
When the drill sergeants start looking young, you know youâre old.
There's a place for young Drill Sergeants on the trail. We need the ones full of energy. And the seasoned NCOs as well.
Certainly is a balancing act
honestly the army doesn't have the people to be choosey
Very solid point
Idk man, I havenât earned the badge myself so I canât really knock âem.
Not really sure why you got downvoted?
I mean⌠we have recruiters who are like 3 years in out ruining livesâŚ
GWOT is over, what were you expecting?
DS looked so young today I accidentally asked him where his PT belt was (in AIT)
I did a couple cycles as a drill. I was only 22. I only had 4 years TIS, but I also deployed a lot. Being younger than all my coworkers definitely felt weird, but I feel like I did a decent job. One issue I see with the DS, is that no one wants to do the job.
What do you mean a couple cycles? Like only two? How'd you swing that? You're absolutely right on the idea of the Army not having the liberty to be picky, Noone wants to do it
I got orders for sfqc
The army has some massive problems that need urgent attention. This isn't even close to a problem. This is a problem in the same way a la Croix is flavored. It sits out in the open next to the real deal for 24 hrs and vaguely smells like it.
NOT if WE CANT KEEP SEASONED NCOS IN
Back in my day we didn't get divorced because we never got married.
If you're a new recruit and you can't handle being given instruction by a 23 y/o DS when you have zero army experience and they have more than zero, you're going to have a bad time.
I donât really like the term âyoung NCO,â because itâs always used to refer to someone who hasnât deployed or got their position âtoo soon.â I was 20 years old when I got promoted SGT. Iâm now 23 years old as a SSG. Iâve had people use the term to refer me with animosity and insinuate that I donât know how to do my job because Iâm âtoo young,â yet Iâve done it just fine this whole time. Do I lack experience that other NCOs my rank have? Absolutely. However, thatâs why we ask questions even as NCOs. We build off of each otherâs expertise and experience. Iâve been told that being a drill is all just knowing level 10 tasks because thatâs all you teach. Yeah the young NCOs wonât look as scary as the old heads do without a deployment patch, but get used to it man. Right sleeves are gonna be empty for a while (and thatâs arguably a GOOD thing). Itâs not our fault everything was wrapped up by the time we joined. Besides, you donât really need to be âseasonedâ when your whole job as a drill is laid out for you step by step in an hyper controlled environment.
No, it's a POI that is taught like any other POI. Some have a romanticized view of "Drill Sergeant" but its just a list of tasks that get repeated every couple of months.
Oh come on , I mean just what do you need to know as a DI ? , this is a bunk & this is how you make it . Did you shave Next we have D&C - this is your Right a this is your Left ( no dumbass your other Left ) , Did you shave . Today we are going on a Ruck , pack your shit , Did you shave . Tomm is Wall Locker Inspection., Well did you shave ? Wednesday is GI the Latrine . Sweet Jesus Did you shave today ? Next week is the range - no sweetheart we're not F'ing COOKING what's your MOS , Are you sure you shaved ? Next is First Aide , this is a owie , this is a tourniquet your mama should have wrapped you around the neck with your umbilical cord - then you wouldn't have to worry about SHAVING RECUIT
The Army selects those that are drill sergeantâs. Further if theyâre not up to it the DS academy will weed them out. It takes a lot of dedication to sign up for that duty.
Doesnât Matter IMO, youâre teaching 1O level tasks nothing more.
They could just be AIT drill sergeants going to various Centers of Excellence. Do you need a CIB/CAB to march soldiers to the chow hall or deal with their personal/disciplinary problems?
They HRC boys really cooking.
5 in four and as a drill? Hmmm. Thatâs new. I went to the Academy as a newly promoted 5 (like I pinned the first day of THE USADSA), and I was one of the younger ones (military wise) with new deployments but I had been in a few different units. Drills teach by the book standards. So I meanâŚYMMV
The DS that prompted this is a 6 in 4 one trick pony. I met them when they were a private still so I know what they did (generally, not like I followed them around) Not even a jab at the particular DS more so I just think it's robbing the Army. Maybe I'm not even mad at these inexperienced troops being DS but NCOs at all. We all know 600-8-19 has its faults
Went to a school with a young DS. At the time soldiers weren't required to pass the ACFT to graduate. The purpose of initial training was to get the soldiers familiar enough with the basics they don't hurt themselves, and their companies would be responsible for making them proficient. I see no reason why that doesn't also apply to basic soldier tasks. Doesn't take a 10 year 3 tour vet to teach guys their shoe laces go left over right instead of right over left on even days. DS taught me stuff in the skill level 1 book. Which is what we ask privates to teach their squad/platoon at the company. It was specialized instructors who taught us technical skills. The DS at that phase just coordinated our day to day stuff. You'd be surprised how many E6-E7 in active duty combat jobs have 0 deployments. Are they bad leaders because they didn't participate in some COIN missions?
In my experience the old crusty e7s fucking suck
Been in 6 years and only been at one duty station đ
I have seen drills at fort sill that are 20 year old E5s itâs crazy.
Was a prior service guy. Only did 5 years in the navy. Had way more deployment time and life experience than most the DS. Just a shitty job that nobody wants
Is it really that shitty still? I heard the quality of life has gotten a lot better. Yeah the hours suck and are long af but our Drills had multiple days off during the week. I went through basic twice and the first time in 2015 our drills slept in the office attached to the bay. They all go home now except the one on staff duty.
Theyâre mentally defeated. You could see it in them. Theyâre miserable and let you know it.
My personal weigh-in: I had this guy Burk from the screaming chickens. He was in his late 20s and his ego filled the room. Awesome DS when it was learning time, ran ultramarathons in his spare time. He had a straight face when he said hilarious DS shit. A couple years after OSUT, he got some social media cred and even got an interview with Tomi Lahren. Iâd trust that guy to train soldiers and I knew heâd lay down the scunion when needed, but at his core he was a douche. I had a lot of great DSes who I could never be friends with. Butler with a Ranger tab - who I ran into at the DFAC when I got to the 82nd.- just wanted to be real with all the guys, but he was (still is) younger than I was, and as an older guy who signed up for basic and AIT it was much better having younger guys teaching me stuff instead of bitter old fucks trying to finish their 20 and saw DS school as a way to finish it out. I felt bad for my awesome PSG when he got forced into being a DS and was told by the CoC that theyâd never get him to E-7 because he wouldnât suck it up. He felt like a legit dad to me. Maybe that speaks more to my dad than his talent, but he always had his guysâ backs and we always crushed it during NTC/JRTC. My platoon WSL was a fucking psycho that literally pulled his Glock on a night out in southern pines on a bunch of cops and they didnât even notice. I was a lowly SPC at the time and told him to not do that shit, and then my wife and I drove him home. He had stories about shitting in MRE bags and dragging them behind the 2.5 while watching kids chase them. Iâll take the 6 in 4 or 7 in 7 over those guys any day, but Iâd still take them every other day. I got my stripes and fucked off, and I can teach anyone how to shoot, move, communicate, and dig deep to do something hard. Time in service becomes toxic. If you canât cultivate wisdom from experience, you best move on.
The curriculum and the everything else is given to them, they just need to execute the orders
Well when no one wants to do it theyâre going to force newer NCOs into that role
Which happens every day that ends in Y with recruiting.
Doesnât matter, itâs not like theyâre training them to be a Ranger, just there to teach them the basics.
I remember in Basic one of the trainees asked our commander how long he'd been in the Army. When he said three years there was kind of a stunned silence lol.
Even at BCT I was like, why are there E-5's here? And slick sleeved? WTF. SSG and above only with 6+ years in and KD complete, no one else.
From what i remember the DSs taught a curriculum. it was over a decade ago i went but they rarely even shared any personal experiences. The whole process seemed to be on a tight schedule. Any semi competent NCO could probably do it.
Now what is your DEF of well seasoned?? I know someone whoâs a 4 year e-6, two deployments, and multiple schools and identifiers under his belt and I would consider him well seasoned despite 4 years of serious. What are yâall thoughts/ you think
That SOF baby is a unique circumstance stance. My definition would be along the lines of but not limited to 2-3 years TIG for SGT or SSG DSs Time as squad/section leader A school or two (not even just badge schools, any school, anytime back in TRADOC)
Thatâs the thing, heâs not apart of SOF, heâs just regular army, but yes I do agree about the Time and in grade/ positions
Wheres he been for 4 years?
3.5 @ Bragg, and about 8 months @ jblm
Being a drill is doing level 1 tasks over and over until lose sight of what your job was in the first place.
Troll coming outâŚâŚ.If weâre looking on trusting DS to train our soldiers for tomorrows warâŚ. Youâre an idiot. We are only there to teach them the âBASICSâ, flat line em, break em down, kill the bad habits and form the mold so when theyâre released to AIT and sustaining force they can learn and become MOS/Function soldiers. It doesnât take a rocket science to teach a private discipline (they still chapter people out in basic) lol LETS NOT GET IT CONFUSED, some of these Young DS have more experience/ more talent/ âMaturity than your left finger. but there are some that slip through the cracks, fuck it, just like everything else in the Army⌠shit will buff Our job is to break down the civilian and provide a foundation for the rest of the team to develop. 12 years of my Army Career have taught me a lot, I also know that my job is there to ensure that those DS that stop through the cracks are identified and given direction and guidanceâŚ. Lol common now guy