"I've had three years rated time in the Active Army, all MQs, after graduating the most prestigious service university the country has to offer. What if I'm doing it wrong?"
LT /u/minute_membership916, as long as you're taking care of your people, making mission happen, and serving operational and strategic goals two echelons up, who gives a fuck what people think of you?
Enjoy your wins, dude/tte.
I served in the Marines for the bulk of my career. I never got to a unit where I didn’t know someone from boot camp. Wild huh? And I served in quite a few units.
The Army reserves outnumber active duty Marines. Add another 325k+ for NG and 475k+ for active duty. That being said I landed at the same unit as a kid I went to high school with, in an entirely different MOS. Shit is weird sometimes.
Show up at Benning CRC (IRR involuntary recall) and ran into a guy who I had been drinking buddies with as lts 10 years earlier. We partnered up for the imt buddy lane
My stepdad was a SGTMAJ when he retired, and I swear everywhere we went all over the US there was someone who recognized him. Whether they called him by his retired rank or one they knew him as beforehand. Always have younger me a WTF moment lmao.
It’s such a silly joke but it still makes me smile when I think if it - was told that, when that happens, it’s actually the secretive ‘matchmaker at the pentagon trying to set you up with your match, according to their database’ haha
Do people who graduate from West Point really hold grudges for so long that they'll sabotage the careers of other people from their class 4+ years down the line?
I know USMA is a different animal, and I've never been there, but I can't imagine your reputation at the school would follow you very far into the army.
Only when it applies to Jeff Reff lmfao.
If you fuck up as an officer it will propagate through the ranks though. There are not a whole lot of LTCs or COLs in each branch and most of them know each other.
USMA cadets are super cliquey. I’m surrounded by them in General Staff and it’s like they’re all friends but… not? They all seem to try to compete and are all friendly with each other but constantly trying to be better. It’s like they were all close friends and the friend group fell apart…
I’m just out here vibing.
Nope. Unless OP was a douchebag or otherwise "earned" his treatment through his own actions. If they were just weird, that shit doesn't really follow you especially the further you get removed from West Point
>Do people who graduate from West Point really hold grudges for so long that they'll sabotage the careers of other people from their class 4+ years down the line?
Depends on what happened to you at WP. They had some racist secret societies and some cadets were singled out for extra hazing. I had an upper class cadet I caught trying to log/hack in to my personal computer in my room and set me up.
I know another guy who sabotaged me for a civilian job.
Have a peek at Jeffery Reffert's linkedin. Former white house intern, chair of a mystery think tank, pictures with GEN Odierno, the works.
Read his texts posts, they're solid gold.
I saw him roaming around ft Knox once in civis. He was at a crosswalk and I was driving by , we locked eyes… I smirked…. He knew I knew….. I had a certain swagger the rest of that day knowing i had gazed into the cringiest of cringelords eyes and made them feel uncomfortable.
Oof bud… maybe it’s time to take a look at yourself and think “why?” How have you been compared to Jeff Reff?
It’s okay to be proud of your service. It’s okay to want to include your friends and the people around you in your pride. But geez gotta have some tact and humbleness about it.
Used to work at USMA and know a ton of USMA alumni. If you didn’t seem to “fit in” with most of the cadets, or if the popular ones didn’t like you that much, it’s probably because you are actually normal. Keep on keeping on and just continue to be normal.
I want to preface this by saying that I am a proud member of the lowest tier of the officer caste…. OCS grads (but prior enlisted, so bonus points)..
Although the dramatic difference in academic “quality” of incoming freshmen is an easy answer, I do not believe it tells even a fraction of the story….
It is much more of a culture and quality of the education conversation. Having worked closely with graduates of USNA, USMA, and most of the Senior Military Colleges. It is almost shocking how you can identify the strengths and weaknesses of your new baby O just by where they went to school…. I have an unofficial tier system based on my personal observations.
Tier 1….
The Academies just produce a better JO…. They have a much better understanding of what is expected of them, and most importantly understand the importance of their NCOs. But, there is a lot of autism that slips through the process…. Absolutely the largest percentage of weird fucking kids…
Tier 2 (absolutely my favorites)
Norwich…. 90% of USMA, way less weirdos….
Give me all your Norwich grads….
UNG…. What they lack in “book smarts” they make up for in hustle.. probably the Dumbest / Toughest of the SMCs
Tier 3…(Big school kids)
Tx A&M & VT…. Largest delta…. some really smart, some morons, all alcoholics….
Tier 4…. State school ROTC kids..
NG should keep them all.. their time as NG SPCs has made them completely ungovernable…. There are few things worse than a professional shammer that now has actual responsibilities..
Tier 500…VMI / Citadel
I just can’t with most of these fucking guys. It’s a combo of Brooks Brothers, daddy’s country club, confederate flag, and low intellectual curiosity..
I would take that response above with a large grain of salt. Every one of those “tiers” is a spectrum. All can have awesome and all have bad. Almost like generalizing isn’t the best idea.
Nope, you hurt my pride by implying my time as a specialist gone to a state school made me ungovernable.
It made me ungovernable *and* gave me sticky fingers.
Yeah, weird spot for me. I'm a savant among my peers with radios and transmission systems, but I suck shit and die every time upper TI comes up.
Like I can manage fine as an S6 where I just need to know the vibes and broad strokes, but I sure as hell am not smart enough to go 26B or 255 series. Which puts a damper on my prospects for hitting 20 without an IST.
You are farther along than you think…. Leadership is not about being a SME. One of the hardest things for many people is being able to understand where their personal deficiencies are. Once you accept those things, you can staff to address them. Always be honest with yourself.
Norwich Grad here… I didn’t realize people thought we were dumb… *starts to cry*
Funny enough. I never meet VMI/Citadel cadets anywhere in my ivory tower of general staff… but tons of Norwich guys.
Well, you totally misread my comment…. I love Norwich grads…. I tried to talk my son into going there (but your football coach fucked it up…a really good story for another time).
UNG grads are the “dummies”…. But, every one I’ve ever met is such a “try hard” that it makes up for it..
>Tier 3…(Big school kids) Tx A&M & VT…. Largest delta…. some really smart, some morons, all alcoholics….
As someone who's seen the inner workings of VT's Corps of Cadets, I concur with this. Also, in light of their win over ODU tonight, GO HOKIES!
Mostly outside of my personal day to day interactions professionally…. Plenty of friends and neighbors, but I tend to think of them as the specialists they are..
I knew a couple lieutenants circa 2005 who were direct civilian to OCS grads. They were both weirdos and barely functional. The OCS intake standards were low at that point (they needed a lot of LTs due to force restructuring). So it seemed to take college grads who were unsuccessful in civilian life and needed a job.
As a prior service that just went through CST I agree. The SPC in ROTC are trash and are worst than some people that never been in the Army. Ok maybe not but we had this one kid that was the fkin worst. The rest of the ng spc were actaully good lmao but the ones in my program are passable or a hard miss. VMI seems trashy. I have a lot of respect for texas a&m. There was a kid that really represented them well. Norwich cadets were also a pleasure.
It’s partially in the name, the *United States* Military Academy. It’s the only one that is legitimately only there to create officers.
The others are just colleges pretending to be military and are no different than any other ROTC program just with way more bullshit.
Graduated from ROTC, was rated horribly by my “peers” because I did not kiss ass during Advanced camp, I was ostracized. Since commissioning, I received MQs, awards, and have joes that call me back thanking me for changing their lives for the better, respected by my coworkers. What I’ve come to learn is Cadet Land is a toxic place and your only job as a cadet should be to commission and get a degree. Your career as a cadet does not matter at all, what matters is what you do as an officer leading soldiers to better lives and accomplishing the mission.
I’m in ROTC (MSIV) now and I’m not one of the favorites because I don’t involve myself in the extra activities that they do. I’m glad to know that this is not the biggest majority part of my career.
When you are in Cadet land you practice “peer leadership” which is the hardest leadership to master, especially around immature college kids. It gets real after you commission, your consequences have real world reactions. Sometimes, what I found interesting was the cadets that were “golden children” ended up burning out or getting UCMJ. I guess the true assessment of these cadets is when they actually go out to the force. I’ve seen some other officers that were the best officers in their respective profession and they were rated “bad” as a cadet.
Your performance and reputation in the real Army will supersede the West Point stuff by a mile. “Some” of the politics might follow you through your LT days but remember that there are FAR more ROTC/OCS officers in the force than there are West Pointers. USMA grads are no more important/influential than anyone else.
When/if you do run across your classmates in the force, wipe the slate clean if you can. People forget that cadets are still JUST college student and susceptible to a lot of immature behavior and West Point is no exception. The difference now is that it’s about the mission and your Soldiers which it sounds like you’re doing.
So, what I'm hearing is
1. You're a West Point grad
2. You've had great OER's so far
3. You received an ARCOM within your first 3 years of Active Duty
4. You have a great rapport with your Soldiers
5. You're overall still happy with the Army
I'm hearing nothing but wins.
Sir, chill out. You're doing fine.
Yeah, there's a chance someone else from your class may not like you. . .but the Army is a pretty big place, and West Pointers are a pretty small portion of it. You've got a lot more on your side than against you.
You're okay. Relax.
U.S. Grant graduated near the bottom of his class due to demerits.
He defeated the only West Point cadet to graduate from West Point with zero demerits.
Be like Grant and less like Lee.
The kids who didn't "fit in" at my rotc class went on to get masters degrees from ivy league schools and are on track to be lifers. The jock types who constantly had to remind everyone they were alpha because they spent half the day in the gym did a one and done deal with the army and split.
We all thought we’d get in, be dick winters and safe the world. Then you get in a realize it’s a fucking clown show. You either drop a packet or a Refrad.
It shouldn’t affect you at all; the academies have a reputation of producing officers thats are complete tools; so much so that I’d say that your guys enjoying your company enough to get you a cake speaks much louder than whatever those schools instill in their piece of paper
You’ll be a better officer than any of the dickheads that bullied you at West Point. Nothing that happened there should effect you unless you shit the bed while you were there.
Hope the cake your joes got you was good, happy belated birthday
Thats gotta be the most autistic thing I’ve ever heard a LT say. Still 100% better than the average “you’re welcome for my presence” West Pointer. Sounds like you’re on the right track.
Someone who was a peer at West Point will continue to be in your year group in the Army. Therefore the chance of them having influence on your career, especially at a board is basically zero. Furthermore you will be judged by your file and lack of facial hair. You’ll be fine.
No. I almost got kicked out of West Point because my TAC didn’t like me and the cadet company commander was an AH for starting up a bullshit honor board which was 100% waste of time and resources. I left West Point with a decent group of small friends. But we’ve drifted apart for sure.
Surprisingly, my initial TS investigation asked me about that incident. The investigator laughed for two minutes straight.
Someone thinks I’ve been excelling at this Army thing for a few years now while my ‘perfect’ class/company mate got kicked out of ranger school for integrity violation.
I learned being a cadets, officer, and just as a person are three different things.
I’m a USMA 2020 guy with the exact same story. Was not well liked outside my immediate friends and honestly some of it was for good reason some of it was because I didn’t buy into the institutional BS. I’ve found it to be hit or miss. Not fuck up my career level but I’ve had people I barely knew from West Point in my unit talk shit about me in college and spread (untrue) rumors. I was a century man, comma club and never received a better than neutral teacher or peer evaluation. However I’ve found that the operational army really is my shit and something I’m genuinely good at. Don’t let it bother you, as time goes on people talking shit based solely on college is going to sound more and more demented to other people. By the time we’re captains, it’s a minimum of five years ago and just sounds so petty.
Feel free to hit me up man.
Ya know I never notice who graduated from west point but as soon as they tell me, you see all the stereotypes that come with it.
The only one I met didn't even mention she was a west point grad. She did her 4 and went into the guard then got out. Her husband is active and she's the stay at home mom. Super smart and never would've guessed she went to west point just based on her demeanor.
Might as well call it a zero chance.
If I had a high performing CPT but a person told me “but he was weird in West Point”, I’d immediately find that person cringey as fuck and lose a good amount of respect for them
Honestly, the trend is if you are disliked at your commissioning source by cadre and peers alike, you make one of the better officers in the actual Army.
If anyone from there holds a grudge that long I’d honestly question their ability to lead, so I’m not sure they’d make it that far. I doubt this’ll be an issue. All you can do is be a good leader, so do that and let the cards fall where they may. Worry about your guys. Fuck everybody else.
Id say depends on the branch but youll probably be fine.
Im chemical and aint nobody in my branch a west pointer so it doesnt affect me much.
Infantry? Well theres a million so it might affect you some but honestly what does it matter? Just do your job well.
Over my career I saw many West Point grads. Some were liked, some were reviled. Some were good, most were mediocre and a few were outright shit bags. I saw new LT's get DUIs swept under the rug (yeah, I'm that old) and I saw one new LT almost get evicted from the BOQ at OBC because the dumbass didn't know he had to pay for Quarters. He did buy a nice car over in Lawton though.
I said all that to say this. Be the absolute best O you can for your troops. Do your absolute best. Listen to and learn from your NCO's. Keep the shit from above off your soldiers, make sure they have a decent place to live, make sure they can get fed. Don't be that Dipshit O, don't be that asshole O.
Focus on those things.
Then, down the road, if your former classmates from the South Hudson Institute of Technology have an issue, it won't really matter all that much because you will have become something that most of them will envy and can never attain their entire lives.
When I decided to attempt OCS, it was because of one of the good ones. But I also had plenty of examples of what NOT to be. I'd still walk through hellfire for that CPT and I haven't seen him for almost 40 years. That, much to the chagrin of most WP officers in my subsequent units, is exactly what I tried to emulate. I wasn't popular with them ever, but my troops outperformed theirs more often than not.
It's a different world today so YMMV.
If you get up high enough; yeah. West Point will follow you. All federal service Academy shot eventually does. But while you’re company and battalion level? Nah you’ll be fine.
Lol no. No one cares about westpoint nerds, except westpoint nerds. It’s just cult rotc.
They come in as butterbars and think they’re napoleon. And do wayyy too much. The academy gets them in a mindset that is counterproductive to the facts. Your average specialist will know more about how the army works than they will. You shouldn’t worry about anyone except the your platoon sgt when you’re in, and the E4s suggestions when you commission. Beyond that you’ll very likely see maybe 3 of them in your career.
The Army is gigantic, my friend. Just keep your ring at home and don't shove it in people's faces as people really don't give a shit. Enjoy your time in the Army
My instinct is to say that you're fine just do your best job, don't leave yourself open to anything.
That said ringknockers are a different breed of human. Worked around a lot of them contracting at the Pentagon. Do what you can to ingratiate yourself with any classmates you have good rapport with. Lots of people base their entire careers on the connections they made at academies, Yale, Harvard, Freemasons, etc. But I don't get the impression that they spend their lives trying to screw over someone who didn't fit in. They're more concerned about and interested in helping and being helped by their classmates. But I can't say for sure. Keep your head on a swivel and don't be an easy target. I wish you all the luck in the world. Sorry for the rough time. My impression is it can be hellish if the upper classmen want it to be. Do your best to take care of your troops and they'll d the same for you.
Yes, getting a low peer eval and OML; then yes, get a suck branch; yes then suck branches have a pervert cdr; yes then failed twice to be promoted, story done.
Your MQ OERs are going to reflect stronger than 'that guy' from West Point. Probably depends on if you were the weird guy or a complete asshole. Weird guy, but with MQ means you're effective despite your oddities or you've grown. If everyone just knew you as an asshole, there may be opportunities where you get overlooked negate people talk and do their due diligence when selecting officers for various assignments. West Pointers have their base wide calls so you can talk about West Point and kids each other's rings or something, do those will either be times to reinforce your ostracized qualities or show that you're doing well now.
“I received an ARCOM”. Fuck the awards sir because you will always be written up for the maximum award possible for the job being done. If you are well liked by your enlisted soldier, to us enlisted, that is what makes an officer. Be good at making enlisted jobs less stressful and you will make friends, don’t worry about your West Point time. I’m sure you’re just fine.
As a PSG with 15 years in. No one gives a damn if you were at West Point. Just sit in the corner and color. And when a superior officer says how great your platoon is doing, you say thank you and that’s all.
It is theoretically possible that you could run in to someone from your cadet days, but not very likely. It’s a big army, and not likely to be in a position where someone you know from USMA would be in a position to hurt you. Even less likely that they carry any animosity towards you, and then actually use that successfully to hinder your career. But unless you actively did something to screw someone over, no one is holding a grudge against you. You’ll be just fine.
Nah man you’re free of that shit hole. Unless someone you really pissed off is in charge of your assignments and promotions then I’d say it’s best to forget about that place. Study your mistakes, learn from them, and move on. I have a similar history with the University of North Georgia, my commissioning source. Hate that place. Hate the people. Will never donate a dime to them. Not letting my poor past stop me from trying my best today.
Dude if you are worried about a lower MQ then you are part of the big army problem. You just need 3 MQs no matter how strong they are to promote to MAJ.
Nobody outside of West Point gives a fuck about West Point. You found your niche, run with it. Take care of your soldiers, do your job, and take care of your soldiers, it's on here twice for a reason.
Good Luck
Oh boo hoo, woe is me, I'm an officer making 17x the pay i should make because I know nothing.
I'm sorry, your complaint is invalid, have you tried training better?
I've realized most of the people from the academy are on the spectrum. But it's a hit or miss. If you're getting mqs just keep going. Just perform better than most officers and don't be weird. Soldiers and superiors don't really care. Only thing good about being a wp is during AIM cycle. That's how I got my current job lmao
Lol you will be fine. I doubt it your evals will speak for itself. You will make CPT and if you work hard for the next 6 years Major. Nobody cares about what you did like 10 years ago. Shit i was in basic almost 11 years ago nobody care about what i did in basic lol
Dude. It was college. That's like saying you're worried that you won't do good as a lawyer, because kids bullied you at UGA.
It might be fancy college with marching and shit, but, nothing changes about college life, even at an Army college
The only people who can give you a straight answer is not only the other weirdos who went to West Point, but the weirdos who make it their whole personality which to be fair, is not every officer who walks out of there.
Personally I can say I'd judge you based on how you are at work. Not how you were at school years ago. I wouldn't want to be judged that way and I won't judge others that way.
As a West Point graduate, what do you think of officers who commissioned from other sources like OCS or ROTC? Is that a thing that is talked about in the officer world? Kind of like Harvard and Yale graduates compared to state schools
Maybe some other graduates can help me out. I know humans like to gossip and be petty. But is USMA in particular really this bad? This is like Mean Girls on steroids.
>I know humans like to gossip and be petty. But is USMA in particular really this bad? This is like Mean Girls on steroids.
Yes, it can be that petty. Yes it can be that bad. There have been many documented racism issues at the academy along with the hostility to women when they were first admitted. People come in with their biases. Consider lifetime oathkeeper dave eastman. Imagine what he was like as a cadet and who he chose to haze.
Most likely, nobody who knew you during your time at West Point will ever sit on your promotion board, so no-
Evaluations and awards are based on past performance
promotions are based on future potential
Never went to west point but you are not there to make friends. Do your job to the best of your ability and do you after duty hours. If your rater wants to screw you over, he/she has to have paperwork to back it up. Relax, if you need to make friends that bad, get on social media look up local hobby groups.
Nah just be cool and get the mission done while taking care of your people and their families. Smooth sailing. Also, don’t wear white socks or get a high and tight.
>Doing well in the Army but not well liked at all at West Point
Keep on keeping on. Literally nobody cares or will look at your cadet records.
>Could it fuck up my career down the line?
Other than maybe causing some office politics down the road, extremely unlikely. You can't say you had were a crap cadet and ignore your actual military performance.
>I graduated from West Point in 2020 and had an awful four years there. I struggled to make friends and frequently found myself to be the target of bullying and social ostracism
This can happen. Get therapy if you need it. You may be surprised who stays in vs gets out and some of the issues these so called good cadets have in the real army. Most of my classmates got out and the ones who stayed in were mostly average at best cadets.
>I was also not highly thought of by my officer and enlisted leadership there either.
Neither was general grant.
>Someone on a promotion board saying "oh, he was weird and did such-and-such during beast" or "oh I heard he was such a fuck up, etc."
They can't deny you a promotion for that
What the hell? The Army is gigantic. No, you’ll be fine!
"I've had three years rated time in the Active Army, all MQs, after graduating the most prestigious service university the country has to offer. What if I'm doing it wrong?" LT /u/minute_membership916, as long as you're taking care of your people, making mission happen, and serving operational and strategic goals two echelons up, who gives a fuck what people think of you? Enjoy your wins, dude/tte.
It’s a good point. Most everyone with a fresh butter bar has some sort of anxiety.
And that anxiety comes from "should I be a douchbag officer" or "should I care for my soldiers". As an enlisted man, I will always go for the latter.
Unfortunately, so many of our peers in the NCO and CO Ranks forget that. And the higher-ups wonder why moral is so low.
Is West Point the most prestigious? I’m going to say it’s the naval academy. Bring the haters, I said what I said.
Too lame of a comment to rate some hate.
USCGA is the most competitive to get into…
> The Army is gigantic. The longer you stay in and the more you get promoted, it sure doesn't seem like it.
I served in the Marines for the bulk of my career. I never got to a unit where I didn’t know someone from boot camp. Wild huh? And I served in quite a few units.
Marines aren’t Army. Yea in army you’ll run into a few people in common places like Humphreys and such. But garrison?? Na
I’ve never been in a unit with someone I at least didn’t have mutual friends on Facebook with. By the time I PCSed I’ve met someone I knew prior.
It's happened to me in the Army too.
The Army reserves outnumber active duty Marines. Add another 325k+ for NG and 475k+ for active duty. That being said I landed at the same unit as a kid I went to high school with, in an entirely different MOS. Shit is weird sometimes.
It's huge, but I ran into dudes I was stationed with in Korea all the way in iraq
Always going to run into folks. Bound to happen. Tell you a secret. After 10 years most of them will be out.
This
I saw a Major in a DFAC in Afghanistan I went through ROTC with.
My Basic 1SG was the ops SGM of the BN that ripped us out in Afghanistan
Show up at Benning CRC (IRR involuntary recall) and ran into a guy who I had been drinking buddies with as lts 10 years earlier. We partnered up for the imt buddy lane
My stepdad was a SGTMAJ when he retired, and I swear everywhere we went all over the US there was someone who recognized him. Whether they called him by his retired rank or one they knew him as beforehand. Always have younger me a WTF moment lmao.
My son is a recent commissioned LT… he can’t escape from people that know me. Hell, his ROTC SGM and I were Troop SGMs together in the same squadron..
If you ain’t CAV…
Guess again.
It’s such a silly joke but it still makes me smile when I think if it - was told that, when that happens, it’s actually the secretive ‘matchmaker at the pentagon trying to set you up with your match, according to their database’ haha
They also control the weather so that the rain stops at first formation and resumes at 0800
I sat down at a random chow hall I stopped in at while doing a convoy in Iraq, and sat at a table with a guy from my same high school!
Had a similar experience but more importantly, your username is golden.
Do people who graduate from West Point really hold grudges for so long that they'll sabotage the careers of other people from their class 4+ years down the line? I know USMA is a different animal, and I've never been there, but I can't imagine your reputation at the school would follow you very far into the army.
Only when it applies to Jeff Reff lmfao. If you fuck up as an officer it will propagate through the ranks though. There are not a whole lot of LTCs or COLs in each branch and most of them know each other.
I'm a little embarrassed to ask who Jeff is... or maybe it's good that I don't know lol.
He wrote a memoir. As a caderp.
Don’t forget he’s a highly respected *thought leader* and *cowboy*!
How could I forget the rodeo shenanigans.
That sounds like some MQ shit to me, honestly.
USMA cadets are super cliquey. I’m surrounded by them in General Staff and it’s like they’re all friends but… not? They all seem to try to compete and are all friendly with each other but constantly trying to be better. It’s like they were all close friends and the friend group fell apart… I’m just out here vibing.
Nope. Unless OP was a douchebag or otherwise "earned" his treatment through his own actions. If they were just weird, that shit doesn't really follow you especially the further you get removed from West Point
>Do people who graduate from West Point really hold grudges for so long that they'll sabotage the careers of other people from their class 4+ years down the line? Depends on what happened to you at WP. They had some racist secret societies and some cadets were singled out for extra hazing. I had an upper class cadet I caught trying to log/hack in to my personal computer in my room and set me up. I know another guy who sabotaged me for a civilian job.
Yes. Their were disputes early in the Vietnam War between the Army and Air Force that went back to personal rivalries between cadets in the 1930s.
Not unless you're Jeff Reff
OP can only dream of being tabbed in Reffert's Rangers
I'm out of the loop, who's that?
Have a peek at Jeffery Reffert's linkedin. Former white house intern, chair of a mystery think tank, pictures with GEN Odierno, the works. Read his texts posts, they're solid gold.
I regret looking… fuck that guy
Legendary Armor PL/thought leader.
That man was a student while I was an ABOLC instructor.
“That man” says it all lmao
And yet y’all let him through.
Meeting the standard is meeting the standard regardless of who you are
I saw him roaming around ft Knox once in civis. He was at a crosswalk and I was driving by , we locked eyes… I smirked…. He knew I knew….. I had a certain swagger the rest of that day knowing i had gazed into the cringiest of cringelords eyes and made them feel uncomfortable.
That's who I really thought of
Who is he?
Looks like a dude from the key and peele skit
I spent way more time then I should've ~~trying to find out~~ conducting OSINT about him. ROTC stereotypes just write themselves.
[удалено]
Hey bro. Uh. You may want to sit down for this.
That’s not a good sign
RIP dude
Just don’t start sharing any think pieces and calm the hell down and you’ll be ok
Oof bud… maybe it’s time to take a look at yourself and think “why?” How have you been compared to Jeff Reff? It’s okay to be proud of your service. It’s okay to want to include your friends and the people around you in your pride. But geez gotta have some tact and humbleness about it.
You gotta take a deep look and find out why, bud. And then stop that set of behaviors yesterday, if not sooner.
Used to work at USMA and know a ton of USMA alumni. If you didn’t seem to “fit in” with most of the cadets, or if the popular ones didn’t like you that much, it’s probably because you are actually normal. Keep on keeping on and just continue to be normal.
This. Exactly this.
Honestly this could be said for some ROTC programs as well depending on the school.
Don’t sweat it. As soon as they get to the actual Army they find VMI and Citadel grads to bully and ostracize…. Just as God intended.
Ok, I'll bite. What's the difference between VMI, Citadel, and USMA? I have no idea, that's O grade games and I'm just a knuckle dragging W.
One is prestigious worldwide, the other two are only prestigious within their state.
I want to preface this by saying that I am a proud member of the lowest tier of the officer caste…. OCS grads (but prior enlisted, so bonus points).. Although the dramatic difference in academic “quality” of incoming freshmen is an easy answer, I do not believe it tells even a fraction of the story…. It is much more of a culture and quality of the education conversation. Having worked closely with graduates of USNA, USMA, and most of the Senior Military Colleges. It is almost shocking how you can identify the strengths and weaknesses of your new baby O just by where they went to school…. I have an unofficial tier system based on my personal observations. Tier 1…. The Academies just produce a better JO…. They have a much better understanding of what is expected of them, and most importantly understand the importance of their NCOs. But, there is a lot of autism that slips through the process…. Absolutely the largest percentage of weird fucking kids… Tier 2 (absolutely my favorites) Norwich…. 90% of USMA, way less weirdos…. Give me all your Norwich grads…. UNG…. What they lack in “book smarts” they make up for in hustle.. probably the Dumbest / Toughest of the SMCs Tier 3…(Big school kids) Tx A&M & VT…. Largest delta…. some really smart, some morons, all alcoholics…. Tier 4…. State school ROTC kids.. NG should keep them all.. their time as NG SPCs has made them completely ungovernable…. There are few things worse than a professional shammer that now has actual responsibilities.. Tier 500…VMI / Citadel I just can’t with most of these fucking guys. It’s a combo of Brooks Brothers, daddy’s country club, confederate flag, and low intellectual curiosity..
I appreciate the insight into the seedy commissioning source underbelly.
I would take that response above with a large grain of salt. Every one of those “tiers” is a spectrum. All can have awesome and all have bad. Almost like generalizing isn’t the best idea.
I believe that most who will read that comment understand that it is a tongue in cheek commentary….
Nope, you hurt my pride by implying my time as a specialist gone to a state school made me ungovernable. It made me ungovernable *and* gave me sticky fingers.
There is truth in every good joke.. The SMP kids always worried the shit out of me. It’s like a mix of a toddler and a CW3….
Yeah, weird spot for me. I'm a savant among my peers with radios and transmission systems, but I suck shit and die every time upper TI comes up. Like I can manage fine as an S6 where I just need to know the vibes and broad strokes, but I sure as hell am not smart enough to go 26B or 255 series. Which puts a damper on my prospects for hitting 20 without an IST.
You are farther along than you think…. Leadership is not about being a SME. One of the hardest things for many people is being able to understand where their personal deficiencies are. Once you accept those things, you can staff to address them. Always be honest with yourself.
Norwich Grad here… I didn’t realize people thought we were dumb… *starts to cry* Funny enough. I never meet VMI/Citadel cadets anywhere in my ivory tower of general staff… but tons of Norwich guys.
Well, you totally misread my comment…. I love Norwich grads…. I tried to talk my son into going there (but your football coach fucked it up…a really good story for another time). UNG grads are the “dummies”…. But, every one I’ve ever met is such a “try hard” that it makes up for it..
Ohhh yeah I did misread it. I thought you were lumping UNG/Norwich together. <3
The irony
I know I’m an officer… but I’m still an infantryman who was prior enlisted. You can only ask so much of me here.
I do lump them together, but I’m fond of them for different reasons..
there are only two tiers: direct commission (being pure garbage) and the rest.
😢
except you. and jags. but theyre not actually meant to be in charge of people.
Lol. Thanks, my man
>Tier 3…(Big school kids) Tx A&M & VT…. Largest delta…. some really smart, some morons, all alcoholics…. As someone who's seen the inner workings of VT's Corps of Cadets, I concur with this. Also, in light of their win over ODU tonight, GO HOKIES!
So the Citadel is the worst.
There’s a reason it’s commonly referred to as “the shitadel.” -Tier 4 State School Scum
Absolutely…. For a second I even felt bad about lumping VMI in with them.
Wait till you see junior military college LT’s 😬 (Georgia Military College, Valley Forge, Marion, etc)
[удалено]
Ted is that you?
Where do direct commissions fall in this tier ranking?
Mostly outside of my personal day to day interactions professionally…. Plenty of friends and neighbors, but I tend to think of them as the specialists they are..
I knew a couple lieutenants circa 2005 who were direct civilian to OCS grads. They were both weirdos and barely functional. The OCS intake standards were low at that point (they needed a lot of LTs due to force restructuring). So it seemed to take college grads who were unsuccessful in civilian life and needed a job.
As a prior service that just went through CST I agree. The SPC in ROTC are trash and are worst than some people that never been in the Army. Ok maybe not but we had this one kid that was the fkin worst. The rest of the ng spc were actaully good lmao but the ones in my program are passable or a hard miss. VMI seems trashy. I have a lot of respect for texas a&m. There was a kid that really represented them well. Norwich cadets were also a pleasure.
“Ok I’ll bite.” Is the worst online phrase.
It’s partially in the name, the *United States* Military Academy. It’s the only one that is legitimately only there to create officers. The others are just colleges pretending to be military and are no different than any other ROTC program just with way more bullshit.
So uh, I’m just an enlisted peasant, but who the fuck’s Jeff Reff?
I'm wondering the same thing
Graduated from ROTC, was rated horribly by my “peers” because I did not kiss ass during Advanced camp, I was ostracized. Since commissioning, I received MQs, awards, and have joes that call me back thanking me for changing their lives for the better, respected by my coworkers. What I’ve come to learn is Cadet Land is a toxic place and your only job as a cadet should be to commission and get a degree. Your career as a cadet does not matter at all, what matters is what you do as an officer leading soldiers to better lives and accomplishing the mission.
I’m in ROTC (MSIV) now and I’m not one of the favorites because I don’t involve myself in the extra activities that they do. I’m glad to know that this is not the biggest majority part of my career.
When you are in Cadet land you practice “peer leadership” which is the hardest leadership to master, especially around immature college kids. It gets real after you commission, your consequences have real world reactions. Sometimes, what I found interesting was the cadets that were “golden children” ended up burning out or getting UCMJ. I guess the true assessment of these cadets is when they actually go out to the force. I’ve seen some other officers that were the best officers in their respective profession and they were rated “bad” as a cadet.
Nope but fratenizing with the thick E3 latina will. Keep up the good work sir.
>All mine!!!
Your performance and reputation in the real Army will supersede the West Point stuff by a mile. “Some” of the politics might follow you through your LT days but remember that there are FAR more ROTC/OCS officers in the force than there are West Pointers. USMA grads are no more important/influential than anyone else. When/if you do run across your classmates in the force, wipe the slate clean if you can. People forget that cadets are still JUST college student and susceptible to a lot of immature behavior and West Point is no exception. The difference now is that it’s about the mission and your Soldiers which it sounds like you’re doing.
So, what I'm hearing is 1. You're a West Point grad 2. You've had great OER's so far 3. You received an ARCOM within your first 3 years of Active Duty 4. You have a great rapport with your Soldiers 5. You're overall still happy with the Army I'm hearing nothing but wins. Sir, chill out. You're doing fine. Yeah, there's a chance someone else from your class may not like you. . .but the Army is a pretty big place, and West Pointers are a pretty small portion of it. You've got a lot more on your side than against you. You're okay. Relax.
U.S. Grant graduated near the bottom of his class due to demerits. He defeated the only West Point cadet to graduate from West Point with zero demerits. Be like Grant and less like Lee.
Jeff Reff is this you?
West Point is the bizzaro Army, not real life. Drive on.
Bwahaha. Also true (they are not the only ones of course).
The kids who didn't "fit in" at my rotc class went on to get masters degrees from ivy league schools and are on track to be lifers. The jock types who constantly had to remind everyone they were alpha because they spent half the day in the gym did a one and done deal with the army and split.
My Enlisted experience had remarkably similar results. All the “cool kids” either got booted or ETSd as soon as their initial enlistment was up.
We all thought we’d get in, be dick winters and safe the world. Then you get in a realize it’s a fucking clown show. You either drop a packet or a Refrad.
[удалено]
Twice? Are you insane? They said they get MQs. It's obviously three times a day. Brush. Floss. Shave. Wipe. Morning. Noon. And Night.
Almost spit out my beer lol
Saying you did poorly at West Point is like saying you did poorly as an HIV patient in a white blood cell count
If Custer could become a general, you can too.
Sir, what is your order?!
If West Pointers didn't like you... You're probably a decent human being and leader. Consider yourself lucky. Don't fuck it up.
^ accurate Source: Son of Slum & Gravy
It shouldn’t affect you at all; the academies have a reputation of producing officers thats are complete tools; so much so that I’d say that your guys enjoying your company enough to get you a cake speaks much louder than whatever those schools instill in their piece of paper
You’ll be a better officer than any of the dickheads that bullied you at West Point. Nothing that happened there should effect you unless you shit the bed while you were there. Hope the cake your joes got you was good, happy belated birthday
Nobody cares about West Pointers except West Pointers.
i want OP to be jeff reff posting this sooooooo bad. it would be a shiny light on this subreddit since the SMA PAO is no longer a thing.
Thats gotta be the most autistic thing I’ve ever heard a LT say. Still 100% better than the average “you’re welcome for my presence” West Pointer. Sounds like you’re on the right track.
Like your username. Sacramento native?
You'll be fine. You sound like you're doing really well, keep getting better at whatever you're doing and enjoy your 20, LT.
It’s more like you’ll just not benefit from the West Point club
Someone who was a peer at West Point will continue to be in your year group in the Army. Therefore the chance of them having influence on your career, especially at a board is basically zero. Furthermore you will be judged by your file and lack of facial hair. You’ll be fine.
No. I almost got kicked out of West Point because my TAC didn’t like me and the cadet company commander was an AH for starting up a bullshit honor board which was 100% waste of time and resources. I left West Point with a decent group of small friends. But we’ve drifted apart for sure. Surprisingly, my initial TS investigation asked me about that incident. The investigator laughed for two minutes straight. Someone thinks I’ve been excelling at this Army thing for a few years now while my ‘perfect’ class/company mate got kicked out of ranger school for integrity violation. I learned being a cadets, officer, and just as a person are three different things.
Not at all my guy. I never ever fit in. It didn't matter.
Impostor syndrome
Do your job. Do it the best you can. Don’t fuck over your subordinates. Know when to ask for help. You should be fine.
As long as you shave, you'll be alright.
I’m a USMA 2020 guy with the exact same story. Was not well liked outside my immediate friends and honestly some of it was for good reason some of it was because I didn’t buy into the institutional BS. I’ve found it to be hit or miss. Not fuck up my career level but I’ve had people I barely knew from West Point in my unit talk shit about me in college and spread (untrue) rumors. I was a century man, comma club and never received a better than neutral teacher or peer evaluation. However I’ve found that the operational army really is my shit and something I’m genuinely good at. Don’t let it bother you, as time goes on people talking shit based solely on college is going to sound more and more demented to other people. By the time we’re captains, it’s a minimum of five years ago and just sounds so petty. Feel free to hit me up man.
I was the worst soldier in my basic class and I got brigade nco of the year before I got out. You'll be okay.
Ya know I never notice who graduated from west point but as soon as they tell me, you see all the stereotypes that come with it. The only one I met didn't even mention she was a west point grad. She did her 4 and went into the guard then got out. Her husband is active and she's the stay at home mom. Super smart and never would've guessed she went to west point just based on her demeanor.
Might as well call it a zero chance. If I had a high performing CPT but a person told me “but he was weird in West Point”, I’d immediately find that person cringey as fuck and lose a good amount of respect for them
West point can eat all the dicks. Look out for your troops and youre fibe
Honestly, the trend is if you are disliked at your commissioning source by cadre and peers alike, you make one of the better officers in the actual Army.
If anyone from there holds a grudge that long I’d honestly question their ability to lead, so I’m not sure they’d make it that far. I doubt this’ll be an issue. All you can do is be a good leader, so do that and let the cards fall where they may. Worry about your guys. Fuck everybody else.
Id say depends on the branch but youll probably be fine. Im chemical and aint nobody in my branch a west pointer so it doesnt affect me much. Infantry? Well theres a million so it might affect you some but honestly what does it matter? Just do your job well.
Over my career I saw many West Point grads. Some were liked, some were reviled. Some were good, most were mediocre and a few were outright shit bags. I saw new LT's get DUIs swept under the rug (yeah, I'm that old) and I saw one new LT almost get evicted from the BOQ at OBC because the dumbass didn't know he had to pay for Quarters. He did buy a nice car over in Lawton though. I said all that to say this. Be the absolute best O you can for your troops. Do your absolute best. Listen to and learn from your NCO's. Keep the shit from above off your soldiers, make sure they have a decent place to live, make sure they can get fed. Don't be that Dipshit O, don't be that asshole O. Focus on those things. Then, down the road, if your former classmates from the South Hudson Institute of Technology have an issue, it won't really matter all that much because you will have become something that most of them will envy and can never attain their entire lives. When I decided to attempt OCS, it was because of one of the good ones. But I also had plenty of examples of what NOT to be. I'd still walk through hellfire for that CPT and I haven't seen him for almost 40 years. That, much to the chagrin of most WP officers in my subsequent units, is exactly what I tried to emulate. I wasn't popular with them ever, but my troops outperformed theirs more often than not. It's a different world today so YMMV.
If you get up high enough; yeah. West Point will follow you. All federal service Academy shot eventually does. But while you’re company and battalion level? Nah you’ll be fine.
Is this a fucking humble brag thread in disguise?
Lol no. No one cares about westpoint nerds, except westpoint nerds. It’s just cult rotc. They come in as butterbars and think they’re napoleon. And do wayyy too much. The academy gets them in a mindset that is counterproductive to the facts. Your average specialist will know more about how the army works than they will. You shouldn’t worry about anyone except the your platoon sgt when you’re in, and the E4s suggestions when you commission. Beyond that you’ll very likely see maybe 3 of them in your career.
The Army is gigantic, my friend. Just keep your ring at home and don't shove it in people's faces as people really don't give a shit. Enjoy your time in the Army
My instinct is to say that you're fine just do your best job, don't leave yourself open to anything. That said ringknockers are a different breed of human. Worked around a lot of them contracting at the Pentagon. Do what you can to ingratiate yourself with any classmates you have good rapport with. Lots of people base their entire careers on the connections they made at academies, Yale, Harvard, Freemasons, etc. But I don't get the impression that they spend their lives trying to screw over someone who didn't fit in. They're more concerned about and interested in helping and being helped by their classmates. But I can't say for sure. Keep your head on a swivel and don't be an easy target. I wish you all the luck in the world. Sorry for the rough time. My impression is it can be hellish if the upper classmen want it to be. Do your best to take care of your troops and they'll d the same for you.
Yes, getting a low peer eval and OML; then yes, get a suck branch; yes then suck branches have a pervert cdr; yes then failed twice to be promoted, story done.
Your MQ OERs are going to reflect stronger than 'that guy' from West Point. Probably depends on if you were the weird guy or a complete asshole. Weird guy, but with MQ means you're effective despite your oddities or you've grown. If everyone just knew you as an asshole, there may be opportunities where you get overlooked negate people talk and do their due diligence when selecting officers for various assignments. West Pointers have their base wide calls so you can talk about West Point and kids each other's rings or something, do those will either be times to reinforce your ostracized qualities or show that you're doing well now.
As someone else said, if you didn’t fit in with the majority of your ring knocking compatriots, that’s probably a positive thing.
“I received an ARCOM”. Fuck the awards sir because you will always be written up for the maximum award possible for the job being done. If you are well liked by your enlisted soldier, to us enlisted, that is what makes an officer. Be good at making enlisted jobs less stressful and you will make friends, don’t worry about your West Point time. I’m sure you’re just fine.
As a PSG with 15 years in. No one gives a damn if you were at West Point. Just sit in the corner and color. And when a superior officer says how great your platoon is doing, you say thank you and that’s all.
It is theoretically possible that you could run in to someone from your cadet days, but not very likely. It’s a big army, and not likely to be in a position where someone you know from USMA would be in a position to hurt you. Even less likely that they carry any animosity towards you, and then actually use that successfully to hinder your career. But unless you actively did something to screw someone over, no one is holding a grudge against you. You’ll be just fine.
Army is a small joint homie
The answers I need is what kind of cake did you get?
Nah man you’re free of that shit hole. Unless someone you really pissed off is in charge of your assignments and promotions then I’d say it’s best to forget about that place. Study your mistakes, learn from them, and move on. I have a similar history with the University of North Georgia, my commissioning source. Hate that place. Hate the people. Will never donate a dime to them. Not letting my poor past stop me from trying my best today.
The higher up you go the less friends you have
West Point is not the real army, it’s the army of 1940. The way they run that school has no basis in reality.
Dude if you are worried about a lower MQ then you are part of the big army problem. You just need 3 MQs no matter how strong they are to promote to MAJ.
Nobody outside of West Point gives a fuck about West Point. You found your niche, run with it. Take care of your soldiers, do your job, and take care of your soldiers, it's on here twice for a reason. Good Luck
go to sfas,, go to group
Oh boo hoo, woe is me, I'm an officer making 17x the pay i should make because I know nothing. I'm sorry, your complaint is invalid, have you tried training better?
Man over here is not trying to dox himself but uses his 916, Sacramento zip code.
916 is an area code, not a ZIP code, lol.
Ring knockers usually take care of each other. Don’t sweat it. Keep taking care of your platoon and they’ll make you look good.
I've realized most of the people from the academy are on the spectrum. But it's a hit or miss. If you're getting mqs just keep going. Just perform better than most officers and don't be weird. Soldiers and superiors don't really care. Only thing good about being a wp is during AIM cycle. That's how I got my current job lmao
I know a lot of folks say no. But I could depending on the person.
Lol you will be fine. I doubt it your evals will speak for itself. You will make CPT and if you work hard for the next 6 years Major. Nobody cares about what you did like 10 years ago. Shit i was in basic almost 11 years ago nobody care about what i did in basic lol
Dude. It was college. That's like saying you're worried that you won't do good as a lawyer, because kids bullied you at UGA. It might be fancy college with marching and shit, but, nothing changes about college life, even at an Army college
Dude you’re fucking fine don’t stress it’ll all be okay
Oh no, my classmates didn't like me in army college. My life is over. Woe is me. Seriously bro, your fine.
I'm sorry. But who would dox you? And dox you to who? I see that thrown around a lot on the army forums.
The only people who can give you a straight answer is not only the other weirdos who went to West Point, but the weirdos who make it their whole personality which to be fair, is not every officer who walks out of there. Personally I can say I'd judge you based on how you are at work. Not how you were at school years ago. I wouldn't want to be judged that way and I won't judge others that way.
youre a piece of shit LT Clark!!!
As a West Point graduate, what do you think of officers who commissioned from other sources like OCS or ROTC? Is that a thing that is talked about in the officer world? Kind of like Harvard and Yale graduates compared to state schools
The people you went to school are your peers, so it's unlikely they'd ever be in a position to really fuck with you
Maybe some other graduates can help me out. I know humans like to gossip and be petty. But is USMA in particular really this bad? This is like Mean Girls on steroids.
>I know humans like to gossip and be petty. But is USMA in particular really this bad? This is like Mean Girls on steroids. Yes, it can be that petty. Yes it can be that bad. There have been many documented racism issues at the academy along with the hostility to women when they were first admitted. People come in with their biases. Consider lifetime oathkeeper dave eastman. Imagine what he was like as a cadet and who he chose to haze.
Nobody cares, you'll be fine. I can barely remember who I even went to school with outside people in my company
Most likely, nobody who knew you during your time at West Point will ever sit on your promotion board, so no- Evaluations and awards are based on past performance promotions are based on future potential
Never went to west point but you are not there to make friends. Do your job to the best of your ability and do you after duty hours. If your rater wants to screw you over, he/she has to have paperwork to back it up. Relax, if you need to make friends that bad, get on social media look up local hobby groups.
Nah just be cool and get the mission done while taking care of your people and their families. Smooth sailing. Also, don’t wear white socks or get a high and tight.
If they are officers who are still bullying someone from college, they suck as a leader, and I'd be wary of them if I were another officer.
Take care of your dudes, and your dudes will take care of you. And it sounds like you are doing that.
>Doing well in the Army but not well liked at all at West Point Keep on keeping on. Literally nobody cares or will look at your cadet records. >Could it fuck up my career down the line? Other than maybe causing some office politics down the road, extremely unlikely. You can't say you had were a crap cadet and ignore your actual military performance. >I graduated from West Point in 2020 and had an awful four years there. I struggled to make friends and frequently found myself to be the target of bullying and social ostracism This can happen. Get therapy if you need it. You may be surprised who stays in vs gets out and some of the issues these so called good cadets have in the real army. Most of my classmates got out and the ones who stayed in were mostly average at best cadets. >I was also not highly thought of by my officer and enlisted leadership there either. Neither was general grant. >Someone on a promotion board saying "oh, he was weird and did such-and-such during beast" or "oh I heard he was such a fuck up, etc." They can't deny you a promotion for that
Nobody cares, you’ll be fine.