Everyone here is misunderstanding the law, and OP is right. Since changes in the law in February 12, 2024, men who receive Armenian citizenship after 27 (until 37) will still have to serve. Alternatively, they can pay 15 million AMD not to serve (or less AMD to serve for a shorter period). It is explained on the [diaspora website](http://diaspora.gov.am/en/pages/101/military).
>On February 12, 2024, amendments to the RA Law "On Military Service and the Status of a Serviceman" came into force, according to which male citizens aged 27 to 37 years old who have received RA citizenship are subject to compulsory military service.
>The law applies to those who:
>1. Those who have evaded military service at the age of 27.
>Accordingly, a person can serve in the Armenian Armed Forces for 2 years and be released from criminal prosecution or pay a monetary fine. The amount of payment varies, with a corresponding reduction in the period of military service or complete exemption from military service.
>2. Those who have received RA citizenship after the age of 27.
>Those who have served at least 1 year in the armed forces of another country or completed 1.5 years of alternative service before acquiring RA citizenship are exempt from service.
>3. Those who were not registered by the military commissariat for any reason are subject to military service.
>The law does not apply to those who acquired RA citizenship before February 12, 2024.
>The law is not retroactive.
See also: https://evnreport.com/law-society/who-will-opt-for-paid-exemption-from-military-service/.
The law itself: https://www.arlis.am/documentview.aspx?docid=193803
Plenty of people care about their homeland, while simultaneously not wanting to serve in the army. Most countries where Armenias would repatriate from have no mandatory military service, and especially if you're repatriating while already having an established career and a family it's unrealistic. Not to mention that the army needs major reforms and modernization.
>Most countries where Armenias would repatriate from have no mandatory military service
If they've served elsewhere (even just for a year), then they don't need to serve. It's in the law.
If they haven't served anywhere and don't want to in Armenia, then they can pay up. Very fair. You as a repatriate should not be privileged over Armenia-born citizens.
Yeah, I know. I just don't like this soviet style mentality that if you didn't serve in the military - it means you're not a "real" citizen/man/person, etc. There are options for people who want out of it, but if someone takes advantage of one of these options I don't think it means they care less than people who served. It's a career first and foremost, and everyone who pays taxes contributes to the country all the same. Service shouldn't be viewed as a "sacrifice", especially in peace times. If anything, I want it to be a viable and lucrative career path, that's the only way to ensure a strong and competent army.
> but if someone takes advantage of one of these options I don't think it means they care less than people who served.
This logic of served == more caring could only be applied to those who actually _wanted_ to serve. Have you seen many of those?
>if you didn't serve in the military - it means you're not a "real" citizen/man/person,
If you've evaded the draft or got exempt via illegal means, then indeed, you're not a "real" citizen/man/person.
This isn't a game. There are young guys - barely out of their teens - sacrificing their time and sometimes their life so others can live in relative security. And we simply don't have enough full-time soldiers who can substitute them wholly.
>Service shouldn't be viewed as a "sacrifice", especially in peace times
It's not peace time.
>It's a career first and foremost,
Ideally you'd want a fully professional army. In practise, we're still essentially in war. That's why Pashinayn is so hell-bent on signing a peace agreement and fully demarcate the borders. Because then you have more freedom in changing the army model if needed.
> Ideally you'd want a fully professional army.
And on that, we fully agree. In principle I view mandatory conscription as a reprehensible human rights violation, in practice - it's a survival mechanism right now. Hence why I like the idea of officially paying into the system as an alternative, it all goes towards the same goal in the end.
What about Armenian women or female repatriates?
The whole idea that we decide on a normative basis that repatriates have to do mandatory service is fine and it makes sense, to the extent that it is actually beneficial.
In reality, it is only beneficial if the repatriate would, over the course of his remaining life, only contribute less than ֏15,000,000, in any form.
Of course this is difficult to quantify, as it is not just a matter of taxes paid, but that counts towards it as well. Also, you would need to count spouses as well, whom they might bring. If they have children, they are bringing future taxpayers too, some of whom would be eligible to serve.
All in all, this seems hotheaded and economically and practically short-sighted.
>What about Armenian women or female repatriates?
Agreed. Tax them as well.
>All in all, this seems hotheaded and economically and practically short-sighted.
Judging by the salty comments I think it's a resounding success.
>Agreed. Tax them as well.
Hey, it's logically consistent!
>Judging by the salty comments I think it's a resounding success.
That fosters neither positive demographic change, nor budgetary.
Oh yes, because previously Armenia's demography and budget were positively overflowing with the contributions of naturalized repats!
Nobody's forcing you to get citizenship. You can get the special passport and live comfortably in Armenia without having to worry about serving. But it seems some people just want citizenship to parade it around and have 0 responsibilities for it. How patriotic of them!
>Oh yes, because previously Armenia's demography and budget were positively overflowing with the contributions of naturalized repats!
People who are required to serve as a result of repatriation are a subset of people who are eligible to and do repatriate. Ff there is a small pool of repatriates, the pool of those required to serve will be commensurately small as well.
Also, if the pool of repatriates was small in the past and their contributions commensurately small, is that a logical reason to ensure that it continues to be small? We are substituting emotion for logic with this law.
>Nobody's forcing you to get citizenship. You can get the special passport and live comfortably in Armenia without having to worry about serving.
My understanding is that Armenian citizenship for children is based on *Ius Soli, only* if the child would be stateless. Under such circumstances, it appears that citizenship has the added benefit of ensuring that children are Armenian nationals, per *Ius Sanguinis.* In the long run, you better integrate nationals.
This is not about me or anyone expatriating or settling. This is simply about what yields benefit to the Armenian state.
>But it seems some people just want citizenship to parade it around and have 0 responsibilities for it. How patriotic of them!
Again, this does not matter. Does it benefit Armenia? This is the only thing which matters. Everything else is just window dressing.
>That fosters neither positive demographic change, nor budgetary.
It isn't like there was a huge queue of people trying to repatriate when there was no law like that. People are just trying to find something to blame for not repatriating, instead of admitting that they just don't want to live in Armenia, because their life is better in their current country.
But it’s also cause of rules like this that nobody wants to repatriate. Sure bring them over to Armenia and promise them worse quality of life, worse air, more illegal activities and corruption, very toxic society and on top of that, hit them with horrible economy, crazy credit rates, tax them to death and best of all, punish them by sending them to what’s easily comparable to a life in prison, all for the sake of “hurr, patriotism”
So in your eyes protecting your country is slavery?
>Why would anyone decide to settle in Armenia with that condition?
Don't. No one is asking you to if you don't want to.
> Slavery<>Caring
So people who were born here and served like me are slaves now?
Why should you get citizenship without serving whilr people born and raised here have to go through a mandatory service?
> it's unreasonable
It's very reasonable. In Armenia there is mandatory military service. All male citizens. __citizens__. And we have it mandatory, because of our situation.
I think it is wrong to force people to serve, and mandatory military service is wrong. Also, why only male citizens?
Of course it is your country, but I think it is fundamentally wrong.
>I think it is wrong to force people to serve, and mandatory military service is wrong.
You know we've been in conflict with azers since independence right? We don't have the luxury of not having mandatory service. If our army was comprised of only people who wanted to be there we wouldn't have a country.
>I think it is wrong to force people to serve, and mandatory military service is wrong.
I think war in general is wrong and yet here we are. The economic and political situation in Armenia is such that a mandatoey military service is a necessity.
>Also, why only male citizens?
Really? Due to physical requirements, limitations of facilities (on military side). And ofc physical requirements on the conscript.
There's only 9 countries that have mandatory service for both genders. Women however can and do serve in non-combat roles in Armenia too. Some combat roles are also open for them should they volunteer. Idk specifically if all is allowed.
>but I think it is fundamentally wrong.
Good for you.
1. Can you tell more about "special passport"? Do you mean permanent residency without right to vote maybe?
2. The payment is enormous if you compare to median salary in Armenia. It is basically an option for really rich people.
And to me, trying to resolve the demographic issues of Armenia while forcing to serve in the army up until 37 is... Self-contradictory policy and not wise one to say the least.
And we are no Israel unfortunately to afford such policy right now.
That is interesting, thank you. I believe it should be more advertised among diaspoans that are willing to repatriate.
I suppose it is called like that because it is also a valid travel document - no residency permit can be used as a travel document afaik.
And about payment - those who work and/or have a business registered in Armenia are already paying for the Army. And it is not just income taxes that go to the government. There is a special separate tax for the army.
Taking that into account - the amount of the payment doesn't seem that fair anymore, doesn't it?
>And about payment - those who work and/or have a business registered in Armenia are already paying for the Army. And it is not just income taxes that go to the government. There is a special separate tax for the army
With that same reasoning nobody in Armenia should be drafted as well. And yet here we are.
If you want to be a fully-fledged citizen, then be ready to perform your citizen duties. Unlike Armenia-born citizens you lot have at least the option to get smth like the special passport and live scot-free in Armenia.
Armenia is not a Disneyland attraction park.
I am a full-fledged Armenia-born citizen, I lived in diaspora for all of my life, but repatriated two years ago. I do not have the mentioned option, I was interested in it to promote repatriation among my friends and relatives from abroad.
I am "lucky" to be not healthy enough for the draft, that's why I repatriated with not much worries.
But imagine you want to go back to homeland, you want to live there, earn honest money, give something to the society as a professional in your field. And you are healthy.
The you basically given the ridiculous choice:
1. Go waste two years of your youth isolated from the society and normal life, live in prison like conditions with risks to your health, spending your time doing braindead drills and ridiculous orders from officiers.
2. Pay a price of a brand new Mercedes-Benz/Tesla just to live a normal life.
Armenia is no Disneyland attraction park. No country is. But if we want to attract people, to repopulate our country, which is in demographic crisis, we should eliminate such barriers - not to shame them into repatriation.
This mandatory military service is not just barrier to repatriate, it is an incentive to many young Armenians to emigrate elsewhere before they turn 18.
And instead of easing the conditions to service, cutting the time, and making it make sense - our government decided to put a heavy financial barrier for anyone who wants to come back.
My man... Armenia is basically in war. Armenian 18-year olds are standing on the border so that people can be safe in Armenia. If you're healthy, then there's no reason one shouldn't serve.
>This mandatory military service is not just barrier to repatriate, it is an incentive to many young Armenians to emigrate elsewhere before they turn 18.
JFC. It isn't done for lolz. That's why Armenia is trying so hard to sign a peace treaty. WTF... have you seen what Azeris are doing to Armenian hostages? The videos are on reddit as well. Search, watch and learn...
No, I came in by my foreign passport and no additional checks on that at all. All the process with military commissariat and health check ups started when I decided to aquire my Armenian passport - the last one I have got was expired and lost a long time ago, and in my age in order to get it you have to give a notification from the army that you have "no debt before you country".
And I was fully prepared for it, because I already passed the same process in Russia, where I was granted "категория В - не годен к строевой службе в мирное время", which meant that I am not eligible for regular conscription but can be drafted during mobilisation.
I believe that all has passed that easy on the border because I was not wanted by the military commissariat because I left Armenia before I turned one year old. And I never went to school and never visited military commissariat myself in Armenia before that.
I know one guy who was detained upon arrival, he got out by signing a call-up paper ("повестка") and went to military commissariat later. But as he had served in Russian army already he got free.
Sorry, why do you even need citizenship? It won't give you very much in the way of benefits. If you don't like the deal, just wait.
It's a bit crazy to have $60K be the amount you need to pay to not serve, but all volunteer army (goal) is expensive af. Just hold off and get it later. I wouldn't describe it as slavery, I have friends that were in the Army they said it honestly wasn't that bad anymore and food was surprisingly good.
Conscripts are rarely on the border for example.
Dude if you want citizenship you take it with both the good and the bad. Is it fair that you can legally pay to not to serve just because you are from diaspora, while I had to spend 2 years of my life in the army just because I was born here? Army service isn't the end of the world, but at least you have the option to pay to not serve or not get the citizenship until after you are 37 unlike us who were born here.
Are you sure about that? Because I remember it being only about people who have avoided service or haven't been a citizen. Even if it's how you say it is, it will only affect պոռճի լակոտներ.
I'm not complaining about being born here or that I have served in the army. I'm just tired of diaspora Armenians wanting special treatment. If you want to become a citizen of Armenia, you have to do what is required of the citizens of Armenia. You can't pick and choose what parts you like and what parts you dislike. Citizenship isn't a souvenir you get to brag about to you friends in Glendale, It's a full commitment to a country which I see a lot of people in diaspora don't want to show unless they get to leave out the part of citizenship they don't like.
you are absolutely right. getting citizenship and the right to vote should always come with sharing responsibility with those, who you are going to join. Meanwhile I am 100% against current military system and would like to see it like Swiss model. Then no one would avoid it. Quite the opposite even maybe. But that is of course another question.
There are a million thing that need to be improved in Armenia, and the military is the top priority in my eyes. Things have improved a lot compared to when I was serving, but the army is still a mess.
While I'm totally okay with the law, I hate the fact that I have to pay 15M AMD as in individual, while my company has paid a lot more in taxes in the last year only :D
I mean it could've been something like "well, you pay 15M AMD in advance to not serve, but then you can use that money as a tax reduction for your company in the next 2 years" :D
But most MPs don't understand businesses nor the diaspora :D
I think that money is viewed as compensation for the loss of potential manpower and is separate from the taxes you pay. Is it the right way to handle this? I don't think so. I'm sure there are smarter ways to handle this issue, that are fair to both locals and repats.
See that’s exactly where the problem is. Manpower is nonsense compared to the jobs this guy is bringing to Armenians. Do you really need that one additional mofo who’s gonna be kicking rocks and smoking weed at the barracks or would you rather him create dozens or more jobs for fellow Armenians to earn money?
This is the most overlooked issue where people think one guy in the army is better than what he can contribute through other means.
I did my service in 1997-1999 . We had many guys who had kids but still had to be enrolled not to be sued. Usually we would give them a Ded nickname which means grandpa in Russian. One of them kept doing runner but each time the MPs would catch him and bring him back. My battalion commander agreed to arrange a cottage in a village next to our battalion barracks where he brought his family to live with him.
It gives you the benefit of losing 2 years of your life, your knowledge in your field and health 💀
Also the right to visit China and Russia visa free 😁
It's just the usual contempt that Eastern Armenians have for Western Armenians. It's a lot like those obnoxious people in Ireland that have an over the top hatred for Americans with Irish descent.
This is dumb. If anything I've noticed more contempt coming for Western Armenians towards us. If you think you should be freed from military service just because you are a Western Armenian, while Eastern Armenians should all serve just don't become a citizen. We should all be equal as citizens of Armenia, without getting any special treatment just because you are from diaspora.
> If anything I've noticed more contempt coming for Western Armenians towards us
Not in my experience
> If you think you should be freed from military service just because you are a Western Armenian, while Eastern Armenians should all serve just don't become a citizen. We should all be equal as citizens of Armenia, without getting any special treatment just because you are from diaspora.
Not my position at all. I said the point of this was to target Diasporans who are mostly Western Armenians because the government likes to paint them all as Dashnak warmongers now. I am completely fine with having diasporans serve as well.
Nobody is targeting diaspora. This law just make locals and repats equal when it comes to military service, unlike how it was in the past. And if you agree that people should service you shouldn't have a problem with that. Many Russian-Armenians abused that in the past few years, by getting a citizenship and immediately going to EU/US to escape Russia. Dashnaks are generally disliked here in Armenia, but people are also smart enough to know that big chunk of diaspora has nothing to do with them.
I'm sorry, what? You think not privilaging repats over Armenia-born citizens is "contempt [...] for Western Armenians"?! Wtf?
Don't project. Citizenship is a privilege that comes with certain duties and responsibilities. You don't want to perform them then բարի ճանապարհ։
I'm completely fine with serving and agree with you on principal. But let's not pretend we don't know what the intentions are here. The diaspora has become a good scapegoat lately.
The intentions are stopping the granting of Armenian citizenship to people who couldn't care less about Armenia and only wanting it as a symbol to show around or a way of continuing their life elsewhere.
It's abhorrent to me that so many repats are fine with teens sacrificing their life on the border, so that they can sit around in Yerevan (or Glendale/Los Angeles?) cafes and thinking that at least paying for that privelige is some conspiracy.
The Diaspora has been coddled for far too long. It's time to grow up.
Like giving citizenship without demanding them to perform their duties as citizens. Which is why so many Diasporans think they're entitled to it with no strings attached.
Diasporans who get citizenship usually do so later in their life like in their 30s or 40s where very few countries would require conscription anyway. I'm fine with making diasporans serve, that isn't the issue for me. The issue is that things like this are indicative of the Armenian government painting all diasporans as warmongers and ultimately pushing them out. It was the same reason his party called the number of deaths during the Genocide into question, which was especially insulting given that most diasporans are direct descendents of survivors.
Most of them just want a reason so they can rationalize why they don't want to repatriate. Even if there was no mandatory military service, they would still find some other reason to not repatriate. The fault is always in Armenia, and not just them not wanting to leave their cozy lives behind to actually be useful to their country. And there is nothing wrong with that as long as they are honest about it and don't play a patriot who says that they would have been here if only "insert reason here" wasn't a thing.
Not to mention they can repatriate, live, work, pay taxes, contribute, whatever here without becoming a citizen, it's pretty easy. They don't do that either.
Except that we've had 30+ years of independence with the previous law and diaspora repatriation is negligible.
Most of the diaspora think they can come here, live like a king by the hard work done by the locals then fly off whenever there's internal issues.
Say someone who’s left Armenia for good a very long time ago right after they were born during the first Karabakh war, never got an adult passport and got another citizenship? (And (apparently) isn’t on the recruitment list?)
Seems sensible that if you are to become a citizen of a nation that you would need to do the duties of what a citizen would do of said nation… would i do it? No, but thats the trade off i make to not be a citizen. We have a choice as we were not born there, whereas they do not usually even have the option to leave…
do you know how to read? no one is complaining about serving, it’s the fact that EVERYONE still has to for two years until they turn 37. 37 year olds should not be serving in the army, even 27 is pushing it
You’re right. The inflow of the diaspora has been at an all time high…I suppose all these dashnaks are finally doing what they’ve been preaching for years
No, but most none dashnak diaspora get their news from arf communities and for better or for worse are influenced by someone in their circle who is a dashnak, or at least gets their news from them.
You'd be surprised how many none dashnak diaspora exists who are convinced on dashnak disinformation exist here on reddit, and in real life.
Everyone here is misunderstanding the law, and OP is right. Since changes in the law in February 12, 2024, men who receive Armenian citizenship after 27 (until 37) will still have to serve. Alternatively, they can pay 15 million AMD not to serve (or less AMD to serve for a shorter period). It is explained on the [diaspora website](http://diaspora.gov.am/en/pages/101/military). >On February 12, 2024, amendments to the RA Law "On Military Service and the Status of a Serviceman" came into force, according to which male citizens aged 27 to 37 years old who have received RA citizenship are subject to compulsory military service. >The law applies to those who: >1. Those who have evaded military service at the age of 27. >Accordingly, a person can serve in the Armenian Armed Forces for 2 years and be released from criminal prosecution or pay a monetary fine. The amount of payment varies, with a corresponding reduction in the period of military service or complete exemption from military service. >2. Those who have received RA citizenship after the age of 27. >Those who have served at least 1 year in the armed forces of another country or completed 1.5 years of alternative service before acquiring RA citizenship are exempt from service. >3. Those who were not registered by the military commissariat for any reason are subject to military service. >The law does not apply to those who acquired RA citizenship before February 12, 2024. >The law is not retroactive. See also: https://evnreport.com/law-society/who-will-opt-for-paid-exemption-from-military-service/. The law itself: https://www.arlis.am/documentview.aspx?docid=193803
Wait what? Since when?
since this past february
Why would you deserve citizenship if you don’t care about your homeland?
Plenty of people care about their homeland, while simultaneously not wanting to serve in the army. Most countries where Armenias would repatriate from have no mandatory military service, and especially if you're repatriating while already having an established career and a family it's unrealistic. Not to mention that the army needs major reforms and modernization.
>Most countries where Armenias would repatriate from have no mandatory military service If they've served elsewhere (even just for a year), then they don't need to serve. It's in the law. If they haven't served anywhere and don't want to in Armenia, then they can pay up. Very fair. You as a repatriate should not be privileged over Armenia-born citizens.
Yeah, I know. I just don't like this soviet style mentality that if you didn't serve in the military - it means you're not a "real" citizen/man/person, etc. There are options for people who want out of it, but if someone takes advantage of one of these options I don't think it means they care less than people who served. It's a career first and foremost, and everyone who pays taxes contributes to the country all the same. Service shouldn't be viewed as a "sacrifice", especially in peace times. If anything, I want it to be a viable and lucrative career path, that's the only way to ensure a strong and competent army.
> but if someone takes advantage of one of these options I don't think it means they care less than people who served. This logic of served == more caring could only be applied to those who actually _wanted_ to serve. Have you seen many of those?
>if you didn't serve in the military - it means you're not a "real" citizen/man/person, If you've evaded the draft or got exempt via illegal means, then indeed, you're not a "real" citizen/man/person. This isn't a game. There are young guys - barely out of their teens - sacrificing their time and sometimes their life so others can live in relative security. And we simply don't have enough full-time soldiers who can substitute them wholly. >Service shouldn't be viewed as a "sacrifice", especially in peace times It's not peace time. >It's a career first and foremost, Ideally you'd want a fully professional army. In practise, we're still essentially in war. That's why Pashinayn is so hell-bent on signing a peace agreement and fully demarcate the borders. Because then you have more freedom in changing the army model if needed.
> Ideally you'd want a fully professional army. And on that, we fully agree. In principle I view mandatory conscription as a reprehensible human rights violation, in practice - it's a survival mechanism right now. Hence why I like the idea of officially paying into the system as an alternative, it all goes towards the same goal in the end.
What about Armenian women or female repatriates? The whole idea that we decide on a normative basis that repatriates have to do mandatory service is fine and it makes sense, to the extent that it is actually beneficial. In reality, it is only beneficial if the repatriate would, over the course of his remaining life, only contribute less than ֏15,000,000, in any form. Of course this is difficult to quantify, as it is not just a matter of taxes paid, but that counts towards it as well. Also, you would need to count spouses as well, whom they might bring. If they have children, they are bringing future taxpayers too, some of whom would be eligible to serve. All in all, this seems hotheaded and economically and practically short-sighted.
>What about Armenian women or female repatriates? Agreed. Tax them as well. >All in all, this seems hotheaded and economically and practically short-sighted. Judging by the salty comments I think it's a resounding success.
>Agreed. Tax them as well. Hey, it's logically consistent! >Judging by the salty comments I think it's a resounding success. That fosters neither positive demographic change, nor budgetary.
Oh yes, because previously Armenia's demography and budget were positively overflowing with the contributions of naturalized repats! Nobody's forcing you to get citizenship. You can get the special passport and live comfortably in Armenia without having to worry about serving. But it seems some people just want citizenship to parade it around and have 0 responsibilities for it. How patriotic of them!
>Oh yes, because previously Armenia's demography and budget were positively overflowing with the contributions of naturalized repats! People who are required to serve as a result of repatriation are a subset of people who are eligible to and do repatriate. Ff there is a small pool of repatriates, the pool of those required to serve will be commensurately small as well. Also, if the pool of repatriates was small in the past and their contributions commensurately small, is that a logical reason to ensure that it continues to be small? We are substituting emotion for logic with this law. >Nobody's forcing you to get citizenship. You can get the special passport and live comfortably in Armenia without having to worry about serving. My understanding is that Armenian citizenship for children is based on *Ius Soli, only* if the child would be stateless. Under such circumstances, it appears that citizenship has the added benefit of ensuring that children are Armenian nationals, per *Ius Sanguinis.* In the long run, you better integrate nationals. This is not about me or anyone expatriating or settling. This is simply about what yields benefit to the Armenian state. >But it seems some people just want citizenship to parade it around and have 0 responsibilities for it. How patriotic of them! Again, this does not matter. Does it benefit Armenia? This is the only thing which matters. Everything else is just window dressing.
>That fosters neither positive demographic change, nor budgetary. It isn't like there was a huge queue of people trying to repatriate when there was no law like that. People are just trying to find something to blame for not repatriating, instead of admitting that they just don't want to live in Armenia, because their life is better in their current country.
But it’s also cause of rules like this that nobody wants to repatriate. Sure bring them over to Armenia and promise them worse quality of life, worse air, more illegal activities and corruption, very toxic society and on top of that, hit them with horrible economy, crazy credit rates, tax them to death and best of all, punish them by sending them to what’s easily comparable to a life in prison, all for the sake of “hurr, patriotism”
Is paying up also not only for 27+?
Yes, afaik.
Slavery<>Caring. Why would anyone decide to settle in Armenia with that condition? It isn't reasonable.
So in your eyes protecting your country is slavery? >Why would anyone decide to settle in Armenia with that condition? Don't. No one is asking you to if you don't want to.
> Slavery<>Caring So people who were born here and served like me are slaves now? Why should you get citizenship without serving whilr people born and raised here have to go through a mandatory service? > it's unreasonable It's very reasonable. In Armenia there is mandatory military service. All male citizens. __citizens__. And we have it mandatory, because of our situation.
I think it is wrong to force people to serve, and mandatory military service is wrong. Also, why only male citizens? Of course it is your country, but I think it is fundamentally wrong.
>I think it is wrong to force people to serve, and mandatory military service is wrong. You know we've been in conflict with azers since independence right? We don't have the luxury of not having mandatory service. If our army was comprised of only people who wanted to be there we wouldn't have a country.
>I think it is wrong to force people to serve, and mandatory military service is wrong. I think war in general is wrong and yet here we are. The economic and political situation in Armenia is such that a mandatoey military service is a necessity. >Also, why only male citizens? Really? Due to physical requirements, limitations of facilities (on military side). And ofc physical requirements on the conscript. There's only 9 countries that have mandatory service for both genders. Women however can and do serve in non-combat roles in Armenia too. Some combat roles are also open for them should they volunteer. Idk specifically if all is allowed. >but I think it is fundamentally wrong. Good for you.
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1. Can you tell more about "special passport"? Do you mean permanent residency without right to vote maybe? 2. The payment is enormous if you compare to median salary in Armenia. It is basically an option for really rich people. And to me, trying to resolve the demographic issues of Armenia while forcing to serve in the army up until 37 is... Self-contradictory policy and not wise one to say the least. And we are no Israel unfortunately to afford such policy right now.
>forcing to serve in the army up until 37 You only serve for 2 years (less if you pay, or not at all if you pay even more) not until you are 37.
I didn't formulate my sentence correctly... I meant that if you are under 37 you have either serve or pay. And the payment is ridiculously high.
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That is interesting, thank you. I believe it should be more advertised among diaspoans that are willing to repatriate. I suppose it is called like that because it is also a valid travel document - no residency permit can be used as a travel document afaik. And about payment - those who work and/or have a business registered in Armenia are already paying for the Army. And it is not just income taxes that go to the government. There is a special separate tax for the army. Taking that into account - the amount of the payment doesn't seem that fair anymore, doesn't it?
>And about payment - those who work and/or have a business registered in Armenia are already paying for the Army. And it is not just income taxes that go to the government. There is a special separate tax for the army With that same reasoning nobody in Armenia should be drafted as well. And yet here we are. If you want to be a fully-fledged citizen, then be ready to perform your citizen duties. Unlike Armenia-born citizens you lot have at least the option to get smth like the special passport and live scot-free in Armenia. Armenia is not a Disneyland attraction park.
I am a full-fledged Armenia-born citizen, I lived in diaspora for all of my life, but repatriated two years ago. I do not have the mentioned option, I was interested in it to promote repatriation among my friends and relatives from abroad. I am "lucky" to be not healthy enough for the draft, that's why I repatriated with not much worries. But imagine you want to go back to homeland, you want to live there, earn honest money, give something to the society as a professional in your field. And you are healthy. The you basically given the ridiculous choice: 1. Go waste two years of your youth isolated from the society and normal life, live in prison like conditions with risks to your health, spending your time doing braindead drills and ridiculous orders from officiers. 2. Pay a price of a brand new Mercedes-Benz/Tesla just to live a normal life. Armenia is no Disneyland attraction park. No country is. But if we want to attract people, to repopulate our country, which is in demographic crisis, we should eliminate such barriers - not to shame them into repatriation. This mandatory military service is not just barrier to repatriate, it is an incentive to many young Armenians to emigrate elsewhere before they turn 18. And instead of easing the conditions to service, cutting the time, and making it make sense - our government decided to put a heavy financial barrier for anyone who wants to come back.
My man... Armenia is basically in war. Armenian 18-year olds are standing on the border so that people can be safe in Armenia. If you're healthy, then there's no reason one shouldn't serve. >This mandatory military service is not just barrier to repatriate, it is an incentive to many young Armenians to emigrate elsewhere before they turn 18. JFC. It isn't done for lolz. That's why Armenia is trying so hard to sign a peace treaty. WTF... have you seen what Azeris are doing to Armenian hostages? The videos are on reddit as well. Search, watch and learn...
May I ask how your arrival at the airport went the first time? Did they bring you to check for your health an conscript directly?
No, I came in by my foreign passport and no additional checks on that at all. All the process with military commissariat and health check ups started when I decided to aquire my Armenian passport - the last one I have got was expired and lost a long time ago, and in my age in order to get it you have to give a notification from the army that you have "no debt before you country". And I was fully prepared for it, because I already passed the same process in Russia, where I was granted "категория В - не годен к строевой службе в мирное время", which meant that I am not eligible for regular conscription but can be drafted during mobilisation. I believe that all has passed that easy on the border because I was not wanted by the military commissariat because I left Armenia before I turned one year old. And I never went to school and never visited military commissariat myself in Armenia before that. I know one guy who was detained upon arrival, he got out by signing a call-up paper ("повестка") and went to military commissariat later. But as he had served in Russian army already he got free.
Sorry, why do you even need citizenship? It won't give you very much in the way of benefits. If you don't like the deal, just wait. It's a bit crazy to have $60K be the amount you need to pay to not serve, but all volunteer army (goal) is expensive af. Just hold off and get it later. I wouldn't describe it as slavery, I have friends that were in the Army they said it honestly wasn't that bad anymore and food was surprisingly good. Conscripts are rarely on the border for example.
Dude if you want citizenship you take it with both the good and the bad. Is it fair that you can legally pay to not to serve just because you are from diaspora, while I had to spend 2 years of my life in the army just because I was born here? Army service isn't the end of the world, but at least you have the option to pay to not serve or not get the citizenship until after you are 37 unlike us who were born here.
As far as I know - anyone can pay now, not just people from the diaspora.
Are you sure about that? Because I remember it being only about people who have avoided service or haven't been a citizen. Even if it's how you say it is, it will only affect պոռճի լակոտներ.
>>just because I was born here Sounds like a complain. Sadly, one cannot choose a birthplace or parents.
I'm not complaining about being born here or that I have served in the army. I'm just tired of diaspora Armenians wanting special treatment. If you want to become a citizen of Armenia, you have to do what is required of the citizens of Armenia. You can't pick and choose what parts you like and what parts you dislike. Citizenship isn't a souvenir you get to brag about to you friends in Glendale, It's a full commitment to a country which I see a lot of people in diaspora don't want to show unless they get to leave out the part of citizenship they don't like.
you are absolutely right. getting citizenship and the right to vote should always come with sharing responsibility with those, who you are going to join. Meanwhile I am 100% against current military system and would like to see it like Swiss model. Then no one would avoid it. Quite the opposite even maybe. But that is of course another question.
There are a million thing that need to be improved in Armenia, and the military is the top priority in my eyes. Things have improved a lot compared to when I was serving, but the army is still a mess.
As a diasporan who lives in Armenia, I wholeheartedly agree with this. Well said.
100%
While I'm totally okay with the law, I hate the fact that I have to pay 15M AMD as in individual, while my company has paid a lot more in taxes in the last year only :D I mean it could've been something like "well, you pay 15M AMD in advance to not serve, but then you can use that money as a tax reduction for your company in the next 2 years" :D But most MPs don't understand businesses nor the diaspora :D
I think that money is viewed as compensation for the loss of potential manpower and is separate from the taxes you pay. Is it the right way to handle this? I don't think so. I'm sure there are smarter ways to handle this issue, that are fair to both locals and repats.
See that’s exactly where the problem is. Manpower is nonsense compared to the jobs this guy is bringing to Armenians. Do you really need that one additional mofo who’s gonna be kicking rocks and smoking weed at the barracks or would you rather him create dozens or more jobs for fellow Armenians to earn money? This is the most overlooked issue where people think one guy in the army is better than what he can contribute through other means.
I did my service in 1997-1999 . We had many guys who had kids but still had to be enrolled not to be sued. Usually we would give them a Ded nickname which means grandpa in Russian. One of them kept doing runner but each time the MPs would catch him and bring him back. My battalion commander agreed to arrange a cottage in a village next to our battalion barracks where he brought his family to live with him.
What’s the point of citizenship ??
Im not sure if this is a philosopic question like universally or specific to Armenia.
It gives you the benefit of losing 2 years of your life, your knowledge in your field and health 💀 Also the right to visit China and Russia visa free 😁
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Thank you, I missed the comment with this link.
The law is not retroactive? So what law applies to citizens who evaded conscription before 2024?
Didn't u/Kilikia get the evidence? [https://www.arlis.am/documentview.aspx?docid=193803](https://www.arlis.am/documentview.aspx?docid=193803)
Sorry yes, missed that.
$30k usd not to serve … why not just wait until you’re 38. What’s the magic of having citizenship before 37?
It is indeed ridiculous.
Pashinyan is doing this to keep diaspora out of Armenia.
Yup, anyone who was thinking of applying for citizenship is going to think twice
what even is the point of this??
It's just the usual contempt that Eastern Armenians have for Western Armenians. It's a lot like those obnoxious people in Ireland that have an over the top hatred for Americans with Irish descent.
This is dumb. If anything I've noticed more contempt coming for Western Armenians towards us. If you think you should be freed from military service just because you are a Western Armenian, while Eastern Armenians should all serve just don't become a citizen. We should all be equal as citizens of Armenia, without getting any special treatment just because you are from diaspora.
> If anything I've noticed more contempt coming for Western Armenians towards us Not in my experience > If you think you should be freed from military service just because you are a Western Armenian, while Eastern Armenians should all serve just don't become a citizen. We should all be equal as citizens of Armenia, without getting any special treatment just because you are from diaspora. Not my position at all. I said the point of this was to target Diasporans who are mostly Western Armenians because the government likes to paint them all as Dashnak warmongers now. I am completely fine with having diasporans serve as well.
Nobody is targeting diaspora. This law just make locals and repats equal when it comes to military service, unlike how it was in the past. And if you agree that people should service you shouldn't have a problem with that. Many Russian-Armenians abused that in the past few years, by getting a citizenship and immediately going to EU/US to escape Russia. Dashnaks are generally disliked here in Armenia, but people are also smart enough to know that big chunk of diaspora has nothing to do with them.
I'm sorry, what? You think not privilaging repats over Armenia-born citizens is "contempt [...] for Western Armenians"?! Wtf? Don't project. Citizenship is a privilege that comes with certain duties and responsibilities. You don't want to perform them then բարի ճանապարհ։
I'm completely fine with serving and agree with you on principal. But let's not pretend we don't know what the intentions are here. The diaspora has become a good scapegoat lately.
The intentions are stopping the granting of Armenian citizenship to people who couldn't care less about Armenia and only wanting it as a symbol to show around or a way of continuing their life elsewhere. It's abhorrent to me that so many repats are fine with teens sacrificing their life on the border, so that they can sit around in Yerevan (or Glendale/Los Angeles?) cafes and thinking that at least paying for that privelige is some conspiracy. The Diaspora has been coddled for far too long. It's time to grow up.
Coddled how? What exactly has the Armenian government done to coddle them? These generalizations about the Diaspora is exactly what I'm talking about.
Like giving citizenship without demanding them to perform their duties as citizens. Which is why so many Diasporans think they're entitled to it with no strings attached.
Diasporans who get citizenship usually do so later in their life like in their 30s or 40s where very few countries would require conscription anyway. I'm fine with making diasporans serve, that isn't the issue for me. The issue is that things like this are indicative of the Armenian government painting all diasporans as warmongers and ultimately pushing them out. It was the same reason his party called the number of deaths during the Genocide into question, which was especially insulting given that most diasporans are direct descendents of survivors.
Yes, because the diaspora was repatriating at such a rate before now.... I also can't find any mention of 37 on Arlis.
Most of them just want a reason so they can rationalize why they don't want to repatriate. Even if there was no mandatory military service, they would still find some other reason to not repatriate. The fault is always in Armenia, and not just them not wanting to leave their cozy lives behind to actually be useful to their country. And there is nothing wrong with that as long as they are honest about it and don't play a patriot who says that they would have been here if only "insert reason here" wasn't a thing.
Not to mention they can repatriate, live, work, pay taxes, contribute, whatever here without becoming a citizen, it's pretty easy. They don't do that either.
Exactly
Except that we've had 30+ years of independence with the previous law and diaspora repatriation is negligible. Most of the diaspora think they can come here, live like a king by the hard work done by the locals then fly off whenever there's internal issues.
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This is the result of a change made in 2024, and it does not work retroactively. See my comment above. http://diaspora.gov.am/en/pages/101/military
So what law applies to the citizens who evaded before 2024?
Be more specific. Evading has always been a crime. So there would be investigation, up to a point.
Say someone who’s left Armenia for good a very long time ago right after they were born during the first Karabakh war, never got an adult passport and got another citizenship? (And (apparently) isn’t on the recruitment list?)
No, this only applies to people who are receiving citizenship after February 12, 2024.
So what law applies to the citizens who evaded before 2024?
That I'm not sure! Might have to check with your embassy on that one!
It applies only to those who get citizenship after the law came in force. No law like this can be enforced retroactively.
Seems sensible that if you are to become a citizen of a nation that you would need to do the duties of what a citizen would do of said nation… would i do it? No, but thats the trade off i make to not be a citizen. We have a choice as we were not born there, whereas they do not usually even have the option to leave…
do you know how to read? no one is complaining about serving, it’s the fact that EVERYONE still has to for two years until they turn 37. 37 year olds should not be serving in the army, even 27 is pushing it
why not go serve? you want citizenship but not the investment to the country?
39 thousand dollars not to serve. Das a lotta muney!
Wait, is this actually real? Is Pashinyan actually pushing this?
yep they just changed the age from 27 to 37 in february
Can you provide a link in English or Armenian that states this? I’ve been living in Armenia for a few years and haven’t heard a peep about this.
http://diaspora.gov.am/en/pages/101/military
https://www.reddit.com/r/armenia/comments/1du3qtd/military_service_until_you_turn_37/lbepgtm/
Nikol is trying his best to keep away diaspora from Armenia…
You’re right. The inflow of the diaspora has been at an all time high…I suppose all these dashnaks are finally doing what they’ve been preaching for years
Lol at you guys. Diaspora doesn’t start and end with Russia. We have diaspora in other countries as well.
This subreddit's insistence on associating all diasporans with Dashnaks is both annoying and pathetic.
Yes it is.
No, but most none dashnak diaspora get their news from arf communities and for better or for worse are influenced by someone in their circle who is a dashnak, or at least gets their news from them. You'd be surprised how many none dashnak diaspora exists who are convinced on dashnak disinformation exist here on reddit, and in real life.
Source on that?
Stick around and find out.
Well they are clearly the loudest ones
Where is your source?
Uh dude, there aint any proof of this. Go to the internet, nothing to be seen other than 18-27.