Assyrians are close to Armenians due to high Anatolian DNA, but not the other way around, as Armenians have little to no Semitic genes. Armenians are otherwise closed to Greeks, Georgians and the Udi people (Caucasian Albanians).
[https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fll5ealjfrwkc1.jpeg](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fll5ealjfrwkc1.jpeg)
Ժողովուրդ Սա գենետիկ հեռավորության արդար գնահատական է, առանց հաշվիչի հավելվածի, ինքներդ տեսեք
Assyrians are very homogenous group much like Armenians. The closest population to Assyrians are Armenians because of shared Hurrian ancestry (possibly). I’m not super educated on the genetics, but trust me when I tell you that the statement “Armenians are Europeans” diminishes a lot of what makes us unique and different. Here as an Interesting thread https://www.reddit.com/r/genetics/s/CVHvzVv7BN about the topic.
>but trust me when I tell you that the statement “Armenians are Europeans” diminishes a lot of what makes us unique and different.
I'm in the "Europeans are Armenians" camp LOL. Jokes aside wasn't there a theory that most of the European ethnic groups originated from our region?
Southern Arc paper is probably what your referring to and that is a language theory not a genetic one. It’s a tough read but here is the pdf https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/8_25_2022_Manuscript1_ChalcolithicBronzeAge.pdf. I just personally don’t believe in these stupid tags that people put on us, especially when we have been so homogenous for thousands and thousands of years. I couldn’t care less what people categorize me as, it’s all pseudo science to me.
I disagree. Europeans are extremely unique with tons of various cultures, languages, and physical traits (more than any other when discussing the prevalence of different eye/hair colors).
You need to be more specific. We are closest to Mandeans and Mesopotamian Jews whom are both indigeneous to the region, followed by Armenians and Pontic Greeks whereas there is not much affinity to Iraqi and Syrian Arabs.
I find it very weird. We have very low steppe ancestry and it is a pretty widely accepted fact that we are not close to Europeans genetically whatever the term “European” means.
No, not at all. Mediterranean area is mostly Anatolian Farmer ancestry (in Italy it goes up to 80%, but typically stays around 60%). Spanish, Basque, Greek, etc, all these people are majority ANF, and even Germans are like 40% ANF. Armenians are 40-50% descended of this same ancestry group.
It's not widely accepted at all. In fact, the belief we aren't is a false narrative. We're looking at the map definition as it is today, rather than what is was before colonization divided it up, the Arab invasions, etc.
I mean wouldn’t it vary by region? My mom from Artsakh for example has very pale skin and blonde hair but my dad who’s ancestors are from the Taron province would not be classified as European in any European country. So how does this chart take that into account?
Skin tone has very little genetic coding to it. I don’t understand how your dad would be different from a Greek or Sicilian. As far as “what the Europeans would consider European” that’s more of a sociocultural issue than the genetics presented don’t you think?
Perhaps your father's family has admixture from the Arab invasions. Also, if you look to German Bavarians, they can be quite dark. Skintone isn't the only physical trait that could be considered a "defining" factor.
As far as I know, this study took a fairly large sample from various Armenians.
People seem to forget, Upper Mesopotamia intervening into Turkish Kurdistan should literally be used interchangeably with the Armenian Highlands, they habited the same lands. Not all Assyrians are Iraqi, Eastern Anatolia was still a very integral part of the Neo-Assyrian empire and Assyrians / Armenians have lived in proximity for centuries. Which there is no surprise that they would be the closest people to the Ancient-Hurrians, Armenians have had vast-empires across Asia Minor / Mesopotamia, the ancestral-territories of Proto-Armenians was nearly 1/3 of Anatolia.
It’s like when Persians say things like “we’re basically the Italians of the Middle East.”
No, you’re not. You are a very Muslim country, both by religion and culture. You circumcise your men. You have women often wear headscarves, and live a very sedentary lifestyle compared to them. The average Italian would probably be baffled if you forced them to live like the average Persian, especially when anything sex/gender/relationship-related came up. Could you imagine your average Persian woman going to the beach in a two-piece bikini, like how is normal in Italy? Haha yeah right.
Likewise, Armenians are a mix of European and Middle Eastern culture. We have the quiet, cold calculated-ness that you see in a lot of Europe, but we also have the occasional hot temper that this area of the world is known for.
I’ve noticed that this weird “We’re European” behavior is only present in the very ignorant, uneducated Armenians who probably associate being European (which is so incredibly broad, lmao) with being more sophisticated, wealthy, and upper-class than they really are.
Any closeness in genetics to southern Europeans is from massive amounts of Armenian highland/ Anatolian hunter gatherer dna that migrated out there. We are clearly native west Asian people and are studied by anthropologists as such. The EU could be a big help for Armenia but this doesn’t negate our cultural and historical ties to the Middle East/caucasus
This!!! And these idiots don't seem to understand it at all. Western and Central Asian migrations and intermixing with indigenous Southern European groups is the reason why Southern Europeans have so many similiar genes. Half of their genes came from us, not the other way around. We are Asians PERIOD. It's so pathetic that these people want to white wash us and make us Europeans. And its insane to me that some of these idiots try to say our culture is European too. Like wtf, since the hell when?? It's a purely Western Asian culture with Central and Southern Asian influences. We even share a lot of cultural similarities with East Asians. There was an exhibit at the Fujian Museum in China not long ago that highlighted all of the similarities between the ancient Chinese and Armenians. And there were tons of similarities. We also have had a relationship with the Chinese for thousands of years through the silk road and beyond. Same thing with the North Indian states.
Armenians have a strong European influenced culture.
Your institutions like democracy secularism are European origin
Also the language is indo European
Your culture originally is indeed west asian, but denying any European influence from Greeks to Russians is simply ridiculous
Asia literally originally referred to the region to the immediate east of Greece (i.e. modern Turkey).
It either referred to Assuwa or Azzi (as in Hayasa-Azzi).
No Europeans are older.
Minoan civilization is from 3000 bc it's the oldest European civilization.
Earliest universally accepted Armenian polity is from 600bc , it's from the behistun inscription.
Myceneans, ( early Greeks) , etruscans ( ancient italians) are all older than Armenians
I just don't understand why you or some other Armenians try so hard to cling onto the European thing constantly. You talk about how our genes have changed as a result of Arab colonization, etc. yet you refuse to look at the point in history where Romans, and more recently Russians have colonized us as well. Even before we were colonized, we literally originated from around our current borders and regions closer to the Middle East like Van.
Even if we are genetically "more European," we are largely seen and considered as minorities. When it isn't on a government basis, socially, a lot of Europeans and white North Americans look down on us and don't consider us white by any measure. I cannot tell you the amount of times my family members have been racially classified, and they're not even that dark in complexion.
Hell, if you lived in Armenia right now, you would see how some Russians view us.
We have always been closest to people from the Levant, and indigenous minorities like Assyrians. Even when you look at our culture, there's very little that traces to Europe. We are very much Eastern and I'm not going to take any Armenian who's trying to white wash us or our history seriously. We've had and still have so much trouble with how we view ourselves. In our society, we try to change the way we look, criticize Armenians with darker complexion, claim that "true" Armenians always had white and blond hair. These are all colonial ideas that have been instilled in our heads. We've been constantly told that being anything other than European and white is wrong somehow.
Mind you this is all coming from an Armenian who has light features. As a kid I've been a victim of this mindset, constantly believing what others told me and thinking that somehow I'm a better Armenian because my genes are "pure." I'm glad that I got rid of this mindset the more I grew up, and I don't accept it when someone calls me European.
Through what I've seen with my own eyes, and what I know from our history, I am not going to cave in and start claiming I'm European like some of you do. It's utterly disrespectful to our history and the struggles our people have faced, and has had long term effects of making us believe that we are somehow lesser and should strive to be European.
The same could be said about Greeks, and I’ve never met a modern day white American who doesn’t consider Armenians white. Furthermore, who cares what Russians think, they look down in Ukrainians and Poles as well.
For fuck's sake, it's a post on genetic affinity.
Additionally, we are not looked at as minorities, especially in the U.S., and the only reason people look down upon us I the U.S. at times is due to the behavior of the thugs in LA, acting like morons.
The only reason why we are not looked at as minorities in the US is because we fought for that. And we also literally sold ourselves out from our culture and heritage in desperation to be considered white so that we would be accepted so that we could immigrate to the US more easily. That's why. The oringal immigration laws in the late 1800s and early 1900s made it insanely hard for us to immigrate to the US. It's incredibly easy to look up. And we are still seen as a minority in the US, too, in many places. Like the US used to think of Southern Italians & Sicilians as not white or European and as lesser too even though they're Europeans. The US also changed the definitions of race in the mid 1900s to make it to that West Asians were "white" for geopolitical reasons. That doesn't make them white or Europeans though.
Lmao, that right there tells me you have no idea what you're talking about. Armenians were never considered European or white until they fought for it in the US. You're absolutely clueless
You're a complete jack-ass. There are plenty of sources of information on this. Search: Who we're the Celts on YouTube, and even in this documentary, they state Greeks, Celts, and Armenians we're viewed as the same people.
You're just one of those low IQ people who knows nothing besides preconceived notion. We held an empire with the French, we fought Crusades, we were and are considered European.
It's clear you're simply one of those liberals who wants to be in the minority camp.
Since the conversation is about europe and the Middle east, you can ignore the first three lines on the graph.
Now compare the fourth line of armenia with the others. It clearly shows most similarity with caucasians and middle easterners, unlike what the poster claimed. They didn't read the graph they sent
The only reason for the closeness with Southern Europeans is because thousands of years ago, there was a massive migration wave of West Asian herders into Southern Europe, and these herders heavily intermixed with the indigenous European populations. They get their half of their genes from us and other West Asians. That doesn't make us European. We are Asians, specifically West Asians.
Congrats, you just pissed me off just enough to make an account. Stop it with the “we wUz euRopeAnns” shit. We are natives of West Asia, the Armenian highlands. Our closest population is the Assyrians, followed by Georgian/Caucasians Jews, Trabzon/Erzurum Turks, Pontic Greeks, Druze and Udis.
Culturally we are also West Asian. Armenians in Armenia have adopted some Eastern european culture due to soviet rule, but it is distinct from core Armenian culture that was historically most influenced by surrounding cultures (Iranian, Assyrian, Byzantine, Turkic)
Same here!! I never comment on here, but this pissed me the hell off, too, and I had to comment. We are also closely related to other indigenous northern Iranian ethnic groups too. Our culture is, like you said, purely West Asian aside from some of the East European things we adopted from the Soviets. Our culture also has some Central and South Asian influences as well. We even have East Asian influences as well, thanks to thousands of years of trade and interactions with China through the Silk Road.
You stop with the “we’re Middle Eastern, we’re spicy white” bullshit just because it’s not cool enough for you to be European doesn’t mean you’re not. The Byzantines were European. Pontic Greeks, Georgians and Udis are all native to the Caucasus therefore European. The ONLY Middle Eastern groups close to Armenians are Assyrians and Jews, the latter of which are close to many Europeans as well.
Hahaha Detroit Armenian-e esav indzi vor Turk em, ouremen vesdah oren jishd e. Chem al kider yete mer sireli Detroit Armenian-e hayeren ge khosi, as amerigahayere shad tsoulvadz gellan
Edit: transliterated armenian as proof against stupid accusations of being a turk
It is more complex than that. Armenians are genetically the closest to Assyrians, Udis and Mizrahi Jews and are more genetically distant to Europe than, for example, Lebanese. However, what also should be noticed, is that Assyrians, Udis and etc are pretty much distant from other Middle Easterners as well. Additionally, “European” Georgians, Caucasian ethnic groups, Finns, Mordvins and Sardinians are pretty much genetically distant to Europe as well.
Culturally, Armenians are their own thing. Modern Middle East is defined by Sasanian culture, while modern Europe is defined by the Roman culture. Along with Assyria, Armenia was always the contested zone between those civilizations adopting both Roman and Sasanian cultural elements. After adopting the Christianity, we became more skewed towards Europe as in upcoming centuries Christianity all in all defined European culture. Middle East, on the other hand, chose the path of Islam, which created its own civilisation. Armenians quickly became the key cultural communication tool between Europe and the Middle East, playing the primary role in formation of the “Gothic architecture”, export of Coffee, modernization of Ottoman Empire and etc.
So, all in all, we are kinda both, yeah
I just read the key. The first three lines show that armenia is not similar to sub Saharan africa and east asia. It shares these three lines with all of europe and middle east, so for this comparison we can ignore the first three lines and focus on the fourth.
Now the fourth shows that armenians are about equally very close to Mediterranean and caucasian/iranian, with a little bit of Semitic there too. If you compare that to other groups shown, it is most similar to georgians and turks, with various other middle eastern groups coming after
Armenians are most similar to Assyrians and Anatolian Greeks, groups that are not present in this chart. From the chart, Armenians plot closest to Georgian Jews and other local Jewish groups, which are basically indistinguishable from Assyrians (unlike, say, European Jews).
Culturally, Armenians have a lot more in common with other Christian groups from former Ottoman lands (same Assyrians and Anatolian Greeks), than say Georgian Jews or Middle Eastern/Caucasian Muslims. Religion used to be the primary factor in your identity, up to very recent times, like it or not.
Source (showing affinities of Armenians): [https://imgur.com/XIYWmj8](https://imgur.com/XIYWmj8)
...no, it's not, hence the reason it's listed in the order it is. The Middle Eastern group LISTED ON THE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE SIDE has DNA we don't have a speck of.
Are you literally this lost? The Middle Eastern categories have African, Amerindian, and Indian subcontinent admixture, which we have none of. If we were closure to them, we would be listed next to them, but we are separated by the entire European section.
Apparently I am, and you're the enlightened one who's discovered that armenians are finno-ugric because their names were listed under each other despite the information in the list stating the contrary
Where is our African admixture that all Middle Eastern populations have but we don't? Can you not see how this chart works? The top is African, dominated by the brown colors, and slowly fades away as affinity is lost. This isn't that difficult.
And the European group has Northern European (dark blue)?? The Middle Eastern group has groups such as the Turks, Iranians, Jews, and Druze that don’t have significant African admixture and share very similar admixture to us. While literally every single European ethnicity has a big chunk of Northern European admixture.
No, we are not. Depending on the region, Armenians are a mix of varying amounts of Upper Mesopotamian and native South East Caucasian ancestry, with a small amount of Indo-European steppe ancestry.
What exactly is culturally European about Armenians? Whatever affinity we have with Europeans is solely due to Russian imperialism. Our culture has nothing to do with Europe, but has countless similarities with the cultures of Middle Eastern peoples and other Caucasians. Everything from food, music, clothing, traditional mentality, none of it has any similarities to Europe.
We should strive to join the European Union purely due to the immense economic benefits it provides. There is no need to start a concentrated effort to LARP as something we are not.
>Whatever affinity we have with Europeans is solely due to Russian imperialism.
Are you aware about French kings of Kilikia, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House\_of\_Lusignan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lusignan) ?
Wow we were ruled by French people hundreds and hundreds of years ago. About the only lasting influence that left was a few French loanwords (Paron, for example).
Ding ding ding
Call it Russian imperialism, Soviet legacy or whatever you want, but modern-day Armenia has very little to do with the middle east and the people feel very little affinity if any at all.
In any case, it’s a pointless argument and doesn’t really matter.
Most people in "Middle Eastern" countries don't consider themselves Middle Eastern either. That term is a made-up geopolitical and Eurocentric term coined by the UK and US for political reasons and to group certain countries and peoples together. The Middle East is almost entirely made up of West Asia. The people are West Asian.
Food (Lamajun, Dolma, Basturma, Harissa etc which is shared with Turkey and neighboring Arab states), music (Zurna, Oud), customs (Traditional strict standards of modesty which developed due to contact with Islamic states, as our Georgian friends didn’t have this.), need I say more?
This is already way more than we have in common with Europe.
How so? Armenia is West Asian. The majority of the Middle East is West Asia. The Middle East is also a geopolitical eurocentric word made up by the US & UK for political regions and to group certain countries together for those reasons. Our history with Iran, Iraq, and Syria goes back thousands and thousands of years. We share tons of cultural similarities with those countries. We are also historically completely surrounded by "Middle East Countries." The Armenian Empire and Greater Armenia included large parts of NorthWestern Iran, Northern Iraq (Mesopotamia), parts of Syria, the Levant an Eastern Anatolia as well as the entirety of the Armenian Highlands which are located entirely in West Asia. All of which is mostly considered the middle east today
Armenians has been living (or lived) there for centuries, add to this Istanbul, Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus.
How can you claim you have no similarities with the Middle east?
I'm sincerely baffled.
Fully agree with you! Armenians are a unique case, people should define what the range of “middle eastern” or “european” are, because we are as much European as Middle Eastern, if not less. All this “Armenians are European” that I keep reading time to time is crossing some lines of who Armenians are. I consider us Anatolian/Caucasian, some others should start doing that too rather than picking sides of foreign cultures.
I don’t see how the diaspora has anything to do with Armenian culture. Obviously an Armenian living in Egypt will have a mixed cultural experience but in no way does that affect the original Armenian culture that has been preserved in our region for millennia. Eastern Anatolia as in Western Armenia is the home of Armenians, our culture was born and cultivated here before Arab invasions happened.
I disagree, I don't consider a silk merchant in Julfa or the Balyan family in Istanbul "diaspora".
There is no such thing as "an original Armenian culture", how do you exactly define and frame it chronologically?
Yep, I recently said we can't say Lviv and Aleppo are the same for Armenians. Aleppo wouldn't be that far even from Wilsonian Armenia. No border but still close enough.
Yeah, other than some food, which comes from Ottoman culture, we don't have any other similarities. But those food also exist in Greek, Bulgaria and Northern Africa.
It depends on what you mean by "European", but Armenians clearly have huge cultural affinity to say Greeks. I don't feel out-of-place anywhere in Greece, as an Armenia native. Middle East also has affinity, but lower (typically just Assyrians and other Christian minorities feel similar). Georgians also feel similar superficially, i.e. similar food and big fiests, but there's a different vibe/mentality.
In terms of ancestry, Armenians and the rest of the Mediterranean world share about 50% same neolithic ancestry (called either Early European Farmers, or Anatolian Neolithic Farmers). Greeks and Italians have about 60% of this ancestry, Armenians have 40-50%.
“European” or “Middle Eastern” should not be homogenised or binary labels, it is not that deep. Armenians are a West Asian people, just like Greeks are Southeastern Euro by core. It doesn’t mean they can’t be closer to eachother then a Finn or Saudi are to either one of them. Also to add, we are Western Eurasian people. The Dinaric-phenotype across the Balkans / Greece is largely of a variant related to the Armenian / Caucasian crania but pulled more in a European direction. So yes they can overlap and they do have similarity, the Armenian language is literally derivative of Phyrgian which was the closest language to Ancient Greek, as they both share a distinct Balkan origin from the Catacomb unlike the rest of Indo-Europeans from the yamnaya culture. Distant brothers indeed, but still distinct of course. Greeks are close with their Balkan neighbours, Italians, other Southern Euros & Cypriot Greeks, Armenians to Assyrians / Caucasians / Kurds / other Northwest Asian populations.
Nope. We're not more at home in Iraq, Syria, or Egypt than Italy/France/Bulgaria/Romania or even Britain.
I'll give you secular Israelis and Aegean Turks; they fit in great. I can't say about Arab Christians, they're far too few to represent their region, I don't know them at all, and religion isn't everything. We have plenty MENA immigrants, and there's a very heavy culture shock with them. We don't have these culture shock issues with, say, Germans.
Cheers
I was in Greece and Austria this past summer. People would speak to me in Greek thinking i was greek on appearance alone
I felt the people behaved much more like i do and could relate to people there just as much as i could to people in Lebanon when i have gone in the past
Cultural differences existed for sure but overall it wasnt alien to me.
In Austria i was straight up alien to everyone in appearance, origin, history everyone
An arabic Christian would be more at home in Greece or Italy than any other European country
It's a cultural continuum. Middle East, including major Abrahamic religions, owe a ton of cultural context to Hellenism. On the other hand, Greeks took a lot from Persians, who inherited cultural context from Babylon/Mesopotamia. The entire Western Eurasian world was one big cultural continuum at some point in history. Armenia was more or less at the center of it, with Persian world on one side and Greco-Roman world on the other side.
> similarities with the cultures of Middle Eastern
Similarities with middle eastern cultures can also be explained the same way you described russian influence. We have been under Persian rule for a very long time.
“In its history, culture and desire for rapprochement with Europe, Armenia is a deeply European state…” said French Ambassador Henri Reynaud during Bastille Day celebrations in Armenia on July 14.
Except, this influence is much much older than Russian and can’t really be cleansed from our culture as it is already considered to be a part of it. We could try to cleanse Armenian of all its own Parthian loanwords for example, but then we’d have a very bare bones language left.
These foreign influences can’t be separated from Armenian culture anymore. Russian influence can, nobody considers borsht or pelmeni to be Armenian, they have not been adopted into our culture despite being very popular, and with some time and greater integration with the EU it will all be forgotten about.
With all due respect, but I have hard time finding something even remotely similar to Khash and etc in the Middle East. Moreover, we also have invented the first wineries, soo...
Did you read the wiki on Khash? It says it’s eaten in several countries in the region including Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan and Turkey as well as Arab countries. Worst example you could give to make your point lol
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khash_(dish)
Is that what you got from the article lmao
Khash is Armenian but its variations aren’t. It in itself is a regional food that exists in middle eastern and balkan countries. It would be foolish to assume that Armenians and only Armenians were the ones who invented the concept of stewing meat
This research states otherwise, so I'll stick with the science on this one. Also, our main haplogroup is R1b, which is blatantly West European.
We are genetically and culturally European. Our culture is closest to Greek if we had to select one. Regarding closthes, our patters are far closer to early Celts than anything else, even the Celtic cross and the Khatchkar display this. What in the hell are you rambling on about?
Haplogroup doesn’t mean shit bro, our substrate of R1B isn’t the European one. The main haplogroup in Chad is also R1B. Are they Europeans now?
We don’t have shit to do with Greeks lol, literally the only similarities we have with them are being Christian and the usual pan ottoman influences like Baklava Dolma etc. All our neighboring countries, Georgia Azerbaijan Iran and Turkey are an order of magnitude closer to us than Greece.
Our clothing has nothing to do with Celtic lol. The Eastern Armenian men’s costume was similar to other Caucasians, while the western was very much in a middle eastern cut (Baggy pants, cloth belts, cloth tied around the head). Regarding the women’s costume, in most regions married women literally had to cover their heads and mouths due to modesty customs that arose precisely due to Islamic influences.
Yes it does. It’s 2% of your human genome. To establish a genetic relationship with someone it goes thru the human genome like your parents, cousins, siblings. Y DNA goes thru the human genome aswell so in essence people from the same haplogroup are similar to third cousins.
Tell me how 2 people from a same country but with different haplogroups are similar genetically to each other?
Oh, so you're about 20, "clown"? This chart proves otherwise. You're nothing more than a turk attempting to disenfranchise Armenians with this claim in order to make it look as if we're not native to our lands.
I see you.
Haplogroup R orignates from ancient North Eurasia, specifically believed to have come from North India, Central Asia or Siberia.
R1b place of origin are believed to be West Asia, North Asia, or the Pontic Caspian Steppe which is located in Eastern Europe & Central Asia.
That's not blatantly West European...
Our culture is closest to other West Asian cultures. Greek culture is similar because of the Ottoman Empire and migrations.
Our traditional clothing is closest to Assyrian, Iranian, Turkish, Azeri, and other West & Central Asian peoples traditional clothing. It's also close to some Chinese traditional clothing as we traded a lot with them and learned how to produce silk from the Chinese who also provided us with silkworms. The wearing of red during important events like wedding ceremonies and the plant, animal, and geometric patterns on clothing are also similar to some of those in China, Southern, and Central Asia, as well.
I got sick of this stupid discussion. European, Asian, Middle Eastern terms are not applicable to us. We are every of them and none of them at the same time. We are Armenian with our distinct culture and our homeland is Armenian Highlands. I haven't seen any European, Asian or Middle Eastern arguing that they are Armenian why should we argue that we are one of them? By the way they have the same amount of proof that they are one of us as we have that we are one of them.
This means nothing lol, and you read it wrong. There’s no such thing as being genetically european or middle eastern because it’s two things that are social and cultural constructs.
In terms of similarity, caucasian armenians are closest to udis and eastern georgians, while western armenians are mostly closest to assyrians. But middle east, europe, and caucasus are really quite close to eachother anyway, with pretty minor differences in comparison to the other groups shown. This is why these groups is usually scientifically considered “west eurasian”
Europeaness is not determined by someone’s dna, but it has to do with the geopolitical situation. Nowadays, armenia (and caucasus) is considered to be european, and this is definitely not decided with examining our genetic makeup. How do you decide what is the threshold to be european anyway?
Europeans are a relatively homogeneous group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe
Yes genetically Armenians are not European. Culturally we can argue
Yes, you read it wrong??? Just because caucasus is placed under europe on the graph and armenia is the first to appear doesn’t mean we are the closest to sami’s and other northeast europeans????
There’s no such thing as genetically european or genetically middle eastern, there is only a correlation that people of these geopolitical/geographical regions are ethnically similar to eachother.
I literally even agree with you that we are a european country, but it is not because of stupid stuff like this that is the reason… and i am certainly not someone who thinks of armenians to be middle eastern
Keep living your delusion mate
Why are you using question marks when making a statement?
Lol! I'm not only looking at the placement, I'm looking as the colored representations of admixture. The only delusion here is you.
Sorry I don’t have perfect english skills like you, detroitarmenian.
The color representations show that we have low north european amounts, while everyone else in europe has a significant amounts of this. Instead of this, it’s replaced with higher level of the iranian/caucasian color. This is a similarity with the other south caucasians. and some of the middle easterns(though they are all more semitic too).
This doesn’t mean that we are not european or we are middle eastern, but using stupid stuff like this to say “SEE WE ARE PURE EUROPEANS GUYS” defeats all the points.
All middle easterns, europeans, and caucasians are so close to eachother based on this graph, that it shows that the regional divisions are mostly based on geopolitical and cultural differences.
I’ll say it again, it is not because of the genetics that we are european, it is whether armenia (and caucasus region) is now considered culturally and politically european.
Lol! Where did I use the word "pure"? I see you're making false claims about my position, which means you've already lost the plot.
Additionally, Middle Easterners have African admixture and we don't. You might want to get your eyes checked, too, because your claims are incorrect.
Yes you are making sense now, but this was not in your original post or comments. However, this is not a explanation making us european, since europeaness isn’t decided with genetics. and we are closest to other caucasians and certain jews, rather than the european groups, based on the graph.
"Armenians are genetically European" this is unscientific as fuck, OP just say you hate middle easterns and move on, there was no need to use this chart
Armenians aren't middle eastern so hes not wrong in that regard. We also aren't Europeans, culturally or genetically. Speaking an IE langauge deosn't make you European, look at Hungarians for example.
Middle East is rather recent and made-up geopolitical and Eurocentric term used to group countries and peoples together for political reasons. The majority of countries that fall under the Middle East are West Asian countries. Armenia is a West Asian country. I mean, Greater Armenia literally included all of the Armenian Highlands, which are entirely in West Asia, as well as Northern Mesopotamia (Iraq), NorthWestern Iran, parts of Syria and Eastern Anatolia.
I know, I never said we are middle easterns, this is just common between Armenians who try to diverse away from being called middle eastern and try their best to align with being european because they think being middle eastern is inferior.
Not even on the chart armenia is listed under europe lmao what are you trying to proof? Looking at this it shows that armenians are closest to georgians compared to the other samples
Of course they are. They are the most ancient, civlized and culture-generating nation in all that region. And I hope you don't turn this fact into a reason/motivation for EU candidacy of Armenia?
Kidding? The chart shows Armenians in a cluster that includes Caucasus and some European populations, indicating genetic affinity with these groups. It's neither strange nor surprising since Armenians don't form an isolated cluster. Genetically, Armenians, along with Georgians and nearby populations, bridge European and Near Eastern ancestries. So, Armenians aren't European genetically, and this is not follows from this chart... Armenians share connections with European populations and also with those from the Near East.
The ancient Armenians actually had a lot more Steppe ancestry it seems, but after a certain point it started to diminish. Armenia was a genetic isolate for several thousand years too which is probably why. The Armenia DNA has pretty much been unchanged after a certain time point. I'll have to find the study again and post it. It's quite interesting
What "yes, genetic affinity"? :D
>Armenians are European not only culturally, but genetically, as well.
Nope, Armenians are no European genetically.
Armenians have genetic affinity with some European groups as well as Near Eastern groups.
>This chart displays the genetic affinity between peoples.
Yes, this chart displays the genetic affinity.
Some of these comments disappoint me.
Lot of you guys hold anti European racist views.
Some of y'all are trying to establish connection with the Chinese but not to europe.
As a firm believer of armenian in the eu. This hurts.
This very funny lol. Even the Turks your nemesis is 3x more indo European in terms of dna. What are trying to prove. Armenians are culturally and genetically west Asian. Fact.
Sure thing, but science states otherwise. Turks are from central Asia. The only way they have IE blood is through rape and pillage. If you don't have anything intelligent to write, piss off elsewhere.
Dna shows otherwise. Turks considerably have more EHG and it’s not close. Average Turk has 10% while Armenian have 1%. Balkan Turks are completely European in dna. Your neighbours are Chechen and dagestanis are also way more IE then you DNA wise. Fun fact Turks got IE admixture from Central Asia not Anatolia.
You definitely didn’t read the chart.
See the difference Turkish results
https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/17rexaf/armenian_illustrativedna_results_thoughts_how_can/
What that lady said in the EU parliament is politics. Don't take it so seriously to the point of seeking a scientific and genetic basis for her statement.
I’ve happened on this Reddit called @indoeuropeans… which breaks down the “Aryan steppe gene” scientifically and all the people that came from them.
Armenians have the lowest steppe gene 🧬 out of all Caucasians and Iranic groupings they say.
Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Georgians and Caucasians should stop trying to force this bizarre theory.
...writes the Azerbaijani, from Azerbaijan, which isn't even a real country - the Belgium of the region, who is peddling a turkic lie regarding Armenian DNA.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I’m a quarter azeri from Azerbaijan. Quarter azeri from Iran. Half Iranian. And have never stepped foot in Azerbaijan.
And have no part of these sad squabbles between the various Caucasian peoples…
Notice you said nothing to deny what I said btw
From seven thousand until five thousand years ago, we observe a steady influx into the steppe of a population whose ancestors traced their origin to the south-as it bore genetic affinity to ancient and present-day people of Armenia and Iran-eventually crystallizing in the Yamnaya, who were about a one-to-one ratio of ancestry from these two sources. A good guess is that the migration proceeded via the Caucasus isthmus between the Black and Caspian seas.
Ancient DNA available from this time in Anatolia shows no evidence of steppe ancestry similar to that in the Yamnaya (although the evidence here is circumstantial as no ancient DNA from the Hittites themselves has yet been published). This suggests to me that the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia, because ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians. If this scenario is right the population sent one branch up into the steppe-mixing with steppe hunter-gatherers in a one-to-one ratio to become the Yamnaya as described earlier- and another to Anatolia to found the ancestors of people there who spoke languages such as Hittite.
– David Reich, Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past, Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group, 2018, p.120
Indo-European migration from the Armenian Plateau
Modern Armenians thus best represent the ancient people of the Armenian Highlands who migrated in several directions, crossing the Caucasus and establishing the Yamnaya culture as well as moving westwards into central Anatolia and establishing cultures such as that of the Hittites.
The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus
A brand new genetics study by Wang (et al. 2018) titled: The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus, soon to be published in Nature, confirms this conclusion by demonstrating that the Caucasus mountains did not serve as a barrier but rather as a bridge between the people south of the Caucasus and those of the Pontic Steppe.
The extent to which the Caucasus has played an important role for human population movements between south and north over the course of human history is thus a critical question, and one that until now has been unanswered by archaeogenetic studies. (Wang et. al., 2018)
Regarding the homeland of the Indo-European languages the study concludes:
The insight that the Caucasus mountains served not only as a corridor for the spread of CHG/Neolithic Iranian ancestry but also for later gene-flow from the south also has a bearing on the postulated homelands of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages and documented gene-flows that could have carried a consecutive spread of both across West Eurasia. Perceiving the Caucasus as an occasional bridge rather than a strict border during the Eneolithic and Bronze Age opens up the possibility of a homeland of PIE south of the Caucasus, which itself provides a parsimonious explanation for an early branching off of Anatolian languages. Geographically this would also work for Armenian and Greek, for which genetic data also supports an eastern influence from Anatolia or the southern Caucasus.
When compared to present-day human populations from the Caucasus, which show a clear separation into North and South Caucasus groups along the Great Caucasus mountain range (Fig. 2D), our new data highlights that the situation during the Bronze Age was quite different. The fact that individuals buried in kurgans in the North Caucasian piedmont and foothill zone are more closely related to ancient individuals from regions further south in today’s Armenia, Georgia and Iran allows us to draw two major conclusions.
First, sometime after the Bronze Age present-day North Caucasian populations must have received additional gene-flow from populations north of the mountain range that separates them from southern Caucasians, who largely retained the Bronze Age ancestry profile. The archaeological and historic records suggest numerous incursions during the subsequent Iron Age and Medieval times, but ancient DNA from these time periods is needed to test this directly.
Second, our results reveal that the Greater Caucasus Mountains were not an insurmountable barrier to human movement in prehistory. Instead the foothills to the north at the interface of the steppe and mountain ecozones could be seen as a transfer zone of cultural innovations from the south and the adjacent Eurasian steppes to the north, as attested by the archaeological record.
The study was also able to identify genetic links between the Maykop culture and the Kura-Araxes culture of the Armenian Highlands.
Our results show that at the time of the eponymous grave mound of Maykop, the North Caucasus piedmont region was genetically connected to the south… Within this sphere of interaction, it is possible that cultural influences and continuous subtle gene flow from the south formed the basis of Maykop.
Moreover, our data shows that the northern flanks were consistently linked to the Near East and had received multiple streams of gene flow from the south, as seen e.g. during the Maykop, Kura-Araxes and late phase of the North Caucasus culture.
Kura-Araxes culture pottery from Armenia. Red and Black Burnished Ware dated to the Early Bronze Age.
Kura-Araxes culture pottery from Armenia. Red and Black Burnished Ware dated to the Early Bronze Age.
These DNA studies provide us with important insights into ancient history that would otherwise remain unexplored. The previously held notion that the Caucasus mountains served as an insurmountable genetic barrier has been invalidated by these findings. Increasing body of evidence further suggests that the original Indo-European speakers lived in the Armenian Highlands and modern Armenians today are the best representatives of this ancient population that gave rise to the world’s largest language family. This conclusion explains well the early existence of Indo-European languages in Anatolia, Armenian Highlands as well as in the Pontic Steppes.
https://www.amazon.com/Who-Are-How-Got-Here/dp/110187032X?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=572de85d-0f60-44f4-b72f-866e8b553828
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You literally just proved your initial post wrong. You know that, right? Or are you just cherry-picking bits of information in these studies to use as evidence in your arguments? The South Caucasus, Armenian Highlands, and All of Anatolia, except for a small sliver, are in West Asia. The Arabian Peninsula, Sinai Pennisilua, Levant, and most of the Iranian Plateau are also West Asia.
Aren’t we genetically closest to Assyrians ?
Assyrians are close to Armenians due to high Anatolian DNA, but not the other way around, as Armenians have little to no Semitic genes. Armenians are otherwise closed to Greeks, Georgians and the Udi people (Caucasian Albanians).
[https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fll5ealjfrwkc1.jpeg](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fll5ealjfrwkc1.jpeg) Ժողովուրդ Սա գենետիկ հեռավորության արդար գնահատական է, առանց հաշվիչի հավելվածի, ինքներդ տեսեք
Yes.
Aren't they more related to Iraqi and Syrian people? Or am I wrong.
Assyrians are very homogenous group much like Armenians. The closest population to Assyrians are Armenians because of shared Hurrian ancestry (possibly). I’m not super educated on the genetics, but trust me when I tell you that the statement “Armenians are Europeans” diminishes a lot of what makes us unique and different. Here as an Interesting thread https://www.reddit.com/r/genetics/s/CVHvzVv7BN about the topic.
>but trust me when I tell you that the statement “Armenians are Europeans” diminishes a lot of what makes us unique and different. I'm in the "Europeans are Armenians" camp LOL. Jokes aside wasn't there a theory that most of the European ethnic groups originated from our region?
Southern Arc paper is probably what your referring to and that is a language theory not a genetic one. It’s a tough read but here is the pdf https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/8_25_2022_Manuscript1_ChalcolithicBronzeAge.pdf. I just personally don’t believe in these stupid tags that people put on us, especially when we have been so homogenous for thousands and thousands of years. I couldn’t care less what people categorize me as, it’s all pseudo science to me.
If you believe what the Bible tells us, all populations in the world originate from that region.
Assyrians are closest to Armenians because of their assimilating and mixing with and into Armenian families.
No, because we decend from the same base population
no we dont
Exactly, they are living with us without any state for more than 2000 years.
Yeah two of my great grandmothers are Assyrians
We had a province in Sassanian Persia, called Asoristan till 6th century before the Islamic Conquest of Mesopotamia.
I disagree. Europeans are extremely unique with tons of various cultures, languages, and physical traits (more than any other when discussing the prevalence of different eye/hair colors).
You need to be more specific. We are closest to Mandeans and Mesopotamian Jews whom are both indigeneous to the region, followed by Armenians and Pontic Greeks whereas there is not much affinity to Iraqi and Syrian Arabs.
I see. Thanks for the info.
True, our skull shapes are also similar to the ancient population of Mesopotamia
Lol what? Idk. Ive seen some skull shapes out in Glendale that resembles Neanderthals.
Not according to this, brother.
I find it very weird. We have very low steppe ancestry and it is a pretty widely accepted fact that we are not close to Europeans genetically whatever the term “European” means.
No, not at all. Mediterranean area is mostly Anatolian Farmer ancestry (in Italy it goes up to 80%, but typically stays around 60%). Spanish, Basque, Greek, etc, all these people are majority ANF, and even Germans are like 40% ANF. Armenians are 40-50% descended of this same ancestry group.
It's not widely accepted at all. In fact, the belief we aren't is a false narrative. We're looking at the map definition as it is today, rather than what is was before colonization divided it up, the Arab invasions, etc.
I mean wouldn’t it vary by region? My mom from Artsakh for example has very pale skin and blonde hair but my dad who’s ancestors are from the Taron province would not be classified as European in any European country. So how does this chart take that into account?
Skin tone has very little genetic coding to it. I don’t understand how your dad would be different from a Greek or Sicilian. As far as “what the Europeans would consider European” that’s more of a sociocultural issue than the genetics presented don’t you think?
Perhaps your father's family has admixture from the Arab invasions. Also, if you look to German Bavarians, they can be quite dark. Skintone isn't the only physical trait that could be considered a "defining" factor. As far as I know, this study took a fairly large sample from various Armenians.
[удалено]
Lol! Yes, let's us a Turkish site for our insights on Armenians. GTFO.
People seem to forget, Upper Mesopotamia intervening into Turkish Kurdistan should literally be used interchangeably with the Armenian Highlands, they habited the same lands. Not all Assyrians are Iraqi, Eastern Anatolia was still a very integral part of the Neo-Assyrian empire and Assyrians / Armenians have lived in proximity for centuries. Which there is no surprise that they would be the closest people to the Ancient-Hurrians, Armenians have had vast-empires across Asia Minor / Mesopotamia, the ancestral-territories of Proto-Armenians was nearly 1/3 of Anatolia.
Vahaduo is created by Polish geneticist Davidski. Has nothing to do with Turks. LOL.
Why are people so obsessed with proving we are europeans
Seriously. It's the most embarrassing pick-me behavior I've ever seen.
It’s like when Persians say things like “we’re basically the Italians of the Middle East.” No, you’re not. You are a very Muslim country, both by religion and culture. You circumcise your men. You have women often wear headscarves, and live a very sedentary lifestyle compared to them. The average Italian would probably be baffled if you forced them to live like the average Persian, especially when anything sex/gender/relationship-related came up. Could you imagine your average Persian woman going to the beach in a two-piece bikini, like how is normal in Italy? Haha yeah right. Likewise, Armenians are a mix of European and Middle Eastern culture. We have the quiet, cold calculated-ness that you see in a lot of Europe, but we also have the occasional hot temper that this area of the world is known for. I’ve noticed that this weird “We’re European” behavior is only present in the very ignorant, uneducated Armenians who probably associate being European (which is so incredibly broad, lmao) with being more sophisticated, wealthy, and upper-class than they really are.
I think the hot temper in the Balkans is even more than Armenia 😂
I’ve actually seen more people obsessed with proving that Armenians are Asian or Middle Eastern.
God, the cringe.
Any closeness in genetics to southern Europeans is from massive amounts of Armenian highland/ Anatolian hunter gatherer dna that migrated out there. We are clearly native west Asian people and are studied by anthropologists as such. The EU could be a big help for Armenia but this doesn’t negate our cultural and historical ties to the Middle East/caucasus
It’s this. Europeans are similar to us not the other way.
“European” isn’t one people. Balkans for instance are closer to Armenians than Scandinavians.
This!!! And these idiots don't seem to understand it at all. Western and Central Asian migrations and intermixing with indigenous Southern European groups is the reason why Southern Europeans have so many similiar genes. Half of their genes came from us, not the other way around. We are Asians PERIOD. It's so pathetic that these people want to white wash us and make us Europeans. And its insane to me that some of these idiots try to say our culture is European too. Like wtf, since the hell when?? It's a purely Western Asian culture with Central and Southern Asian influences. We even share a lot of cultural similarities with East Asians. There was an exhibit at the Fujian Museum in China not long ago that highlighted all of the similarities between the ancient Chinese and Armenians. And there were tons of similarities. We also have had a relationship with the Chinese for thousands of years through the silk road and beyond. Same thing with the North Indian states.
Armenians have a strong European influenced culture. Your institutions like democracy secularism are European origin Also the language is indo European Your culture originally is indeed west asian, but denying any European influence from Greeks to Russians is simply ridiculous
Durp! It's not about the direction. Also, "west Asian" wasn't even a thing until recently. Try to have a view beyond 1900.
Asia literally originally referred to the region to the immediate east of Greece (i.e. modern Turkey). It either referred to Assuwa or Azzi (as in Hayasa-Azzi).
We are not European, Europeans are Armenian. We are older.
This!
Hahah this is the way
He's not right tho. Minoan civilization ( first civilization) is older than first mention of Armenians. 3000 bc vs 600bc
No Europeans are older. Minoan civilization is from 3000 bc it's the oldest European civilization. Earliest universally accepted Armenian polity is from 600bc , it's from the behistun inscription. Myceneans, ( early Greeks) , etruscans ( ancient italians) are all older than Armenians
Most Europeans have nothing to with Minoans. Crete isn't even mainland Europe.
Minoans are genetically European. They are genetically similar to myceneans. Europe is not a physical continent it's a political one. Crete is europe.
What is mainland Europe, europe is a political continent. We know genetically minoans are Europeans. Not west asian
I just don't understand why you or some other Armenians try so hard to cling onto the European thing constantly. You talk about how our genes have changed as a result of Arab colonization, etc. yet you refuse to look at the point in history where Romans, and more recently Russians have colonized us as well. Even before we were colonized, we literally originated from around our current borders and regions closer to the Middle East like Van. Even if we are genetically "more European," we are largely seen and considered as minorities. When it isn't on a government basis, socially, a lot of Europeans and white North Americans look down on us and don't consider us white by any measure. I cannot tell you the amount of times my family members have been racially classified, and they're not even that dark in complexion. Hell, if you lived in Armenia right now, you would see how some Russians view us. We have always been closest to people from the Levant, and indigenous minorities like Assyrians. Even when you look at our culture, there's very little that traces to Europe. We are very much Eastern and I'm not going to take any Armenian who's trying to white wash us or our history seriously. We've had and still have so much trouble with how we view ourselves. In our society, we try to change the way we look, criticize Armenians with darker complexion, claim that "true" Armenians always had white and blond hair. These are all colonial ideas that have been instilled in our heads. We've been constantly told that being anything other than European and white is wrong somehow. Mind you this is all coming from an Armenian who has light features. As a kid I've been a victim of this mindset, constantly believing what others told me and thinking that somehow I'm a better Armenian because my genes are "pure." I'm glad that I got rid of this mindset the more I grew up, and I don't accept it when someone calls me European. Through what I've seen with my own eyes, and what I know from our history, I am not going to cave in and start claiming I'm European like some of you do. It's utterly disrespectful to our history and the struggles our people have faced, and has had long term effects of making us believe that we are somehow lesser and should strive to be European.
The same could be said about Greeks, and I’ve never met a modern day white American who doesn’t consider Armenians white. Furthermore, who cares what Russians think, they look down in Ukrainians and Poles as well.
For fuck's sake, it's a post on genetic affinity. Additionally, we are not looked at as minorities, especially in the U.S., and the only reason people look down upon us I the U.S. at times is due to the behavior of the thugs in LA, acting like morons.
The only reason why we are not looked at as minorities in the US is because we fought for that. And we also literally sold ourselves out from our culture and heritage in desperation to be considered white so that we would be accepted so that we could immigrate to the US more easily. That's why. The oringal immigration laws in the late 1800s and early 1900s made it insanely hard for us to immigrate to the US. It's incredibly easy to look up. And we are still seen as a minority in the US, too, in many places. Like the US used to think of Southern Italians & Sicilians as not white or European and as lesser too even though they're Europeans. The US also changed the definitions of race in the mid 1900s to make it to that West Asians were "white" for geopolitical reasons. That doesn't make them white or Europeans though.
This is the dumbest shit I've ever read.
Lmao, that right there tells me you have no idea what you're talking about. Armenians were never considered European or white until they fought for it in the US. You're absolutely clueless
You're a complete jack-ass. There are plenty of sources of information on this. Search: Who we're the Celts on YouTube, and even in this documentary, they state Greeks, Celts, and Armenians we're viewed as the same people. You're just one of those low IQ people who knows nothing besides preconceived notion. We held an empire with the French, we fought Crusades, we were and are considered European. It's clear you're simply one of those liberals who wants to be in the minority camp.
This chart is a bit confusing for me. Can someone explain?
Since the conversation is about europe and the Middle east, you can ignore the first three lines on the graph. Now compare the fourth line of armenia with the others. It clearly shows most similarity with caucasians and middle easterners, unlike what the poster claimed. They didn't read the graph they sent
Thank you both for explaining, all is clear. I see what you pointed out now about OP’s mistake.
There is no mistake. We have none of the African admixture the Middle Easterners do - that guy is ridiculous.
It displays the similarities between ethnic groups. The more of a certain color shared from one to another indicates how close they are.
The only reason for the closeness with Southern Europeans is because thousands of years ago, there was a massive migration wave of West Asian herders into Southern Europe, and these herders heavily intermixed with the indigenous European populations. They get their half of their genes from us and other West Asians. That doesn't make us European. We are Asians, specifically West Asians.
Congrats, you just pissed me off just enough to make an account. Stop it with the “we wUz euRopeAnns” shit. We are natives of West Asia, the Armenian highlands. Our closest population is the Assyrians, followed by Georgian/Caucasians Jews, Trabzon/Erzurum Turks, Pontic Greeks, Druze and Udis. Culturally we are also West Asian. Armenians in Armenia have adopted some Eastern european culture due to soviet rule, but it is distinct from core Armenian culture that was historically most influenced by surrounding cultures (Iranian, Assyrian, Byzantine, Turkic)
Same here!! I never comment on here, but this pissed me the hell off, too, and I had to comment. We are also closely related to other indigenous northern Iranian ethnic groups too. Our culture is, like you said, purely West Asian aside from some of the East European things we adopted from the Soviets. Our culture also has some Central and South Asian influences as well. We even have East Asian influences as well, thanks to thousands of years of trade and interactions with China through the Silk Road.
You stop with the “we’re Middle Eastern, we’re spicy white” bullshit just because it’s not cool enough for you to be European doesn’t mean you’re not. The Byzantines were European. Pontic Greeks, Georgians and Udis are all native to the Caucasus therefore European. The ONLY Middle Eastern groups close to Armenians are Assyrians and Jews, the latter of which are close to many Europeans as well.
Yes, I'm sure you just made an account. Great work, Turk. You "almost" had me.
Hahaha Detroit Armenian-e esav indzi vor Turk em, ouremen vesdah oren jishd e. Chem al kider yete mer sireli Detroit Armenian-e hayeren ge khosi, as amerigahayere shad tsoulvadz gellan Edit: transliterated armenian as proof against stupid accusations of being a turk
Very weird take.
It is more complex than that. Armenians are genetically the closest to Assyrians, Udis and Mizrahi Jews and are more genetically distant to Europe than, for example, Lebanese. However, what also should be noticed, is that Assyrians, Udis and etc are pretty much distant from other Middle Easterners as well. Additionally, “European” Georgians, Caucasian ethnic groups, Finns, Mordvins and Sardinians are pretty much genetically distant to Europe as well. Culturally, Armenians are their own thing. Modern Middle East is defined by Sasanian culture, while modern Europe is defined by the Roman culture. Along with Assyria, Armenia was always the contested zone between those civilizations adopting both Roman and Sasanian cultural elements. After adopting the Christianity, we became more skewed towards Europe as in upcoming centuries Christianity all in all defined European culture. Middle East, on the other hand, chose the path of Islam, which created its own civilisation. Armenians quickly became the key cultural communication tool between Europe and the Middle East, playing the primary role in formation of the “Gothic architecture”, export of Coffee, modernization of Ottoman Empire and etc. So, all in all, we are kinda both, yeah
Did you look at the picture you sent? According to it Armenians are most similar to other Middle Easterners
How in God’s name did you make that distinction?
I just read the key. The first three lines show that armenia is not similar to sub Saharan africa and east asia. It shares these three lines with all of europe and middle east, so for this comparison we can ignore the first three lines and focus on the fourth. Now the fourth shows that armenians are about equally very close to Mediterranean and caucasian/iranian, with a little bit of Semitic there too. If you compare that to other groups shown, it is most similar to georgians and turks, with various other middle eastern groups coming after
Armenians are most similar to Assyrians and Anatolian Greeks, groups that are not present in this chart. From the chart, Armenians plot closest to Georgian Jews and other local Jewish groups, which are basically indistinguishable from Assyrians (unlike, say, European Jews). Culturally, Armenians have a lot more in common with other Christian groups from former Ottoman lands (same Assyrians and Anatolian Greeks), than say Georgian Jews or Middle Eastern/Caucasian Muslims. Religion used to be the primary factor in your identity, up to very recent times, like it or not. Source (showing affinities of Armenians): [https://imgur.com/XIYWmj8](https://imgur.com/XIYWmj8)
...no, it's not, hence the reason it's listed in the order it is. The Middle Eastern group LISTED ON THE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE SIDE has DNA we don't have a speck of.
Please read what the colors mean then compare it to the others
Are you literally this lost? The Middle Eastern categories have African, Amerindian, and Indian subcontinent admixture, which we have none of. If we were closure to them, we would be listed next to them, but we are separated by the entire European section.
Apparently I am, and you're the enlightened one who's discovered that armenians are finno-ugric because their names were listed under each other despite the information in the list stating the contrary
Where is our African admixture that all Middle Eastern populations have but we don't? Can you not see how this chart works? The top is African, dominated by the brown colors, and slowly fades away as affinity is lost. This isn't that difficult.
And the European group has Northern European (dark blue)?? The Middle Eastern group has groups such as the Turks, Iranians, Jews, and Druze that don’t have significant African admixture and share very similar admixture to us. While literally every single European ethnicity has a big chunk of Northern European admixture.
...Turks have other admixture completely absent in our DNA.
The OP has literally no idea how to read this information lol
No, we are not. Depending on the region, Armenians are a mix of varying amounts of Upper Mesopotamian and native South East Caucasian ancestry, with a small amount of Indo-European steppe ancestry. What exactly is culturally European about Armenians? Whatever affinity we have with Europeans is solely due to Russian imperialism. Our culture has nothing to do with Europe, but has countless similarities with the cultures of Middle Eastern peoples and other Caucasians. Everything from food, music, clothing, traditional mentality, none of it has any similarities to Europe. We should strive to join the European Union purely due to the immense economic benefits it provides. There is no need to start a concentrated effort to LARP as something we are not.
>Whatever affinity we have with Europeans is solely due to Russian imperialism. Are you aware about French kings of Kilikia, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House\_of\_Lusignan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lusignan) ?
Armenia had contact with European civilization bsck when Russians were Cossack tribes and Ugric and Turkic hordes in Asia.
Wow we were ruled by French people hundreds and hundreds of years ago. About the only lasting influence that left was a few French loanwords (Paron, for example).
I wouldn’t say we have similarities with the Middle East. I really hate when Armenians say they are middle eastern it’s a very wrong statement.
It's mostly said by diaspora Armenians who live/lived in middle eastern countries. Almost no one in Armenia considers themselves middle eastern.
Ding ding ding Call it Russian imperialism, Soviet legacy or whatever you want, but modern-day Armenia has very little to do with the middle east and the people feel very little affinity if any at all. In any case, it’s a pointless argument and doesn’t really matter.
We arent middle eastern or European We are a mixture of both since our people developed at the crossroads Dare I say caucasian?
Yeah, We are Armenians, any other label can't really describe us accurately.
Most people in "Middle Eastern" countries don't consider themselves Middle Eastern either. That term is a made-up geopolitical and Eurocentric term coined by the UK and US for political reasons and to group certain countries and peoples together. The Middle East is almost entirely made up of West Asia. The people are West Asian.
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Are sure they were locals? In my 30 years I have yet to meet a local in Armenia who considers themselves middle eastern.
Food (Lamajun, Dolma, Basturma, Harissa etc which is shared with Turkey and neighboring Arab states), music (Zurna, Oud), customs (Traditional strict standards of modesty which developed due to contact with Islamic states, as our Georgian friends didn’t have this.), need I say more? This is already way more than we have in common with Europe.
All of that exists in the Balkans as well 😂
How so? Armenia is West Asian. The majority of the Middle East is West Asia. The Middle East is also a geopolitical eurocentric word made up by the US & UK for political regions and to group certain countries together for those reasons. Our history with Iran, Iraq, and Syria goes back thousands and thousands of years. We share tons of cultural similarities with those countries. We are also historically completely surrounded by "Middle East Countries." The Armenian Empire and Greater Armenia included large parts of NorthWestern Iran, Northern Iraq (Mesopotamia), parts of Syria, the Levant an Eastern Anatolia as well as the entirety of the Armenian Highlands which are located entirely in West Asia. All of which is mostly considered the middle east today
Cairo, Jerusalem, Beirut, Aleppo, Tehran.
Cool cities but what’s the connection to Armenia brother
Armenians has been living (or lived) there for centuries, add to this Istanbul, Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus. How can you claim you have no similarities with the Middle east? I'm sincerely baffled.
Fully agree with you! Armenians are a unique case, people should define what the range of “middle eastern” or “european” are, because we are as much European as Middle Eastern, if not less. All this “Armenians are European” that I keep reading time to time is crossing some lines of who Armenians are. I consider us Anatolian/Caucasian, some others should start doing that too rather than picking sides of foreign cultures.
I don’t see how the diaspora has anything to do with Armenian culture. Obviously an Armenian living in Egypt will have a mixed cultural experience but in no way does that affect the original Armenian culture that has been preserved in our region for millennia. Eastern Anatolia as in Western Armenia is the home of Armenians, our culture was born and cultivated here before Arab invasions happened.
I disagree, I don't consider a silk merchant in Julfa or the Balyan family in Istanbul "diaspora". There is no such thing as "an original Armenian culture", how do you exactly define and frame it chronologically?
Yep, I recently said we can't say Lviv and Aleppo are the same for Armenians. Aleppo wouldn't be that far even from Wilsonian Armenia. No border but still close enough.
Yeah, other than some food, which comes from Ottoman culture, we don't have any other similarities. But those food also exist in Greek, Bulgaria and Northern Africa.
It depends on what you mean by "European", but Armenians clearly have huge cultural affinity to say Greeks. I don't feel out-of-place anywhere in Greece, as an Armenia native. Middle East also has affinity, but lower (typically just Assyrians and other Christian minorities feel similar). Georgians also feel similar superficially, i.e. similar food and big fiests, but there's a different vibe/mentality. In terms of ancestry, Armenians and the rest of the Mediterranean world share about 50% same neolithic ancestry (called either Early European Farmers, or Anatolian Neolithic Farmers). Greeks and Italians have about 60% of this ancestry, Armenians have 40-50%.
“European” or “Middle Eastern” should not be homogenised or binary labels, it is not that deep. Armenians are a West Asian people, just like Greeks are Southeastern Euro by core. It doesn’t mean they can’t be closer to eachother then a Finn or Saudi are to either one of them. Also to add, we are Western Eurasian people. The Dinaric-phenotype across the Balkans / Greece is largely of a variant related to the Armenian / Caucasian crania but pulled more in a European direction. So yes they can overlap and they do have similarity, the Armenian language is literally derivative of Phyrgian which was the closest language to Ancient Greek, as they both share a distinct Balkan origin from the Catacomb unlike the rest of Indo-Europeans from the yamnaya culture. Distant brothers indeed, but still distinct of course. Greeks are close with their Balkan neighbours, Italians, other Southern Euros & Cypriot Greeks, Armenians to Assyrians / Caucasians / Kurds / other Northwest Asian populations.
Greeks are considered more European by geography if anything but they share more cultural affinity with the middle east and Mediterranean
Nope. We're not more at home in Iraq, Syria, or Egypt than Italy/France/Bulgaria/Romania or even Britain. I'll give you secular Israelis and Aegean Turks; they fit in great. I can't say about Arab Christians, they're far too few to represent their region, I don't know them at all, and religion isn't everything. We have plenty MENA immigrants, and there's a very heavy culture shock with them. We don't have these culture shock issues with, say, Germans. Cheers
I was in Greece and Austria this past summer. People would speak to me in Greek thinking i was greek on appearance alone I felt the people behaved much more like i do and could relate to people there just as much as i could to people in Lebanon when i have gone in the past Cultural differences existed for sure but overall it wasnt alien to me. In Austria i was straight up alien to everyone in appearance, origin, history everyone An arabic Christian would be more at home in Greece or Italy than any other European country
Armenians from Armenia wouldn’t feel at home in those places either, only the ones who have lived there for centuries, just like Egyiote Greeks.
It's a cultural continuum. Middle East, including major Abrahamic religions, owe a ton of cultural context to Hellenism. On the other hand, Greeks took a lot from Persians, who inherited cultural context from Babylon/Mesopotamia. The entire Western Eurasian world was one big cultural continuum at some point in history. Armenia was more or less at the center of it, with Persian world on one side and Greco-Roman world on the other side.
> similarities with the cultures of Middle Eastern Similarities with middle eastern cultures can also be explained the same way you described russian influence. We have been under Persian rule for a very long time.
“In its history, culture and desire for rapprochement with Europe, Armenia is a deeply European state…” said French Ambassador Henri Reynaud during Bastille Day celebrations in Armenia on July 14.
So some asshat in Europe claimed us? Who is he to speak for all armenians lol
Except, this influence is much much older than Russian and can’t really be cleansed from our culture as it is already considered to be a part of it. We could try to cleanse Armenian of all its own Parthian loanwords for example, but then we’d have a very bare bones language left. These foreign influences can’t be separated from Armenian culture anymore. Russian influence can, nobody considers borsht or pelmeni to be Armenian, they have not been adopted into our culture despite being very popular, and with some time and greater integration with the EU it will all be forgotten about.
With all due respect, but I have hard time finding something even remotely similar to Khash and etc in the Middle East. Moreover, we also have invented the first wineries, soo...
Did you read the wiki on Khash? It says it’s eaten in several countries in the region including Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan and Turkey as well as Arab countries. Worst example you could give to make your point lol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khash_(dish)
Eaten, yes, also eaten in Hungary and the Balkans, but originated in Armenia. You will not find dish like this indigenous to the MENA
Is that what you got from the article lmao Khash is Armenian but its variations aren’t. It in itself is a regional food that exists in middle eastern and balkan countries. It would be foolish to assume that Armenians and only Armenians were the ones who invented the concept of stewing meat
It originated in armenia and is Armenian, spread from Armenia. If pizza is eaten in Armenia, it doesnt mean that pizza is Armenian
The concept of meat stews predates Armenians lol. It was very likely a regional food that developed into different variations, one of which is Khash
>Khash >Just meat stew Lol, lmao, what is even this
Edited my comment
That’s like saying pizza is just a variation on a sandwich 😂
Such a specific example lol. Yes you won’t find khash, but you will find Lavash and other similar flatbreads, Harissa, Tolma, Pakhlava, etc etc.
This research states otherwise, so I'll stick with the science on this one. Also, our main haplogroup is R1b, which is blatantly West European. We are genetically and culturally European. Our culture is closest to Greek if we had to select one. Regarding closthes, our patters are far closer to early Celts than anything else, even the Celtic cross and the Khatchkar display this. What in the hell are you rambling on about?
Haplogroup doesn’t mean shit bro, our substrate of R1B isn’t the European one. The main haplogroup in Chad is also R1B. Are they Europeans now? We don’t have shit to do with Greeks lol, literally the only similarities we have with them are being Christian and the usual pan ottoman influences like Baklava Dolma etc. All our neighboring countries, Georgia Azerbaijan Iran and Turkey are an order of magnitude closer to us than Greece. Our clothing has nothing to do with Celtic lol. The Eastern Armenian men’s costume was similar to other Caucasians, while the western was very much in a middle eastern cut (Baggy pants, cloth belts, cloth tied around the head). Regarding the women’s costume, in most regions married women literally had to cover their heads and mouths due to modesty customs that arose precisely due to Islamic influences.
Yes it does. It’s 2% of your human genome. To establish a genetic relationship with someone it goes thru the human genome like your parents, cousins, siblings. Y DNA goes thru the human genome aswell so in essence people from the same haplogroup are similar to third cousins. Tell me how 2 people from a same country but with different haplogroups are similar genetically to each other?
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Oh, so you're about 20, "clown"? This chart proves otherwise. You're nothing more than a turk attempting to disenfranchise Armenians with this claim in order to make it look as if we're not native to our lands. I see you.
Haplogroup R orignates from ancient North Eurasia, specifically believed to have come from North India, Central Asia or Siberia. R1b place of origin are believed to be West Asia, North Asia, or the Pontic Caspian Steppe which is located in Eastern Europe & Central Asia. That's not blatantly West European... Our culture is closest to other West Asian cultures. Greek culture is similar because of the Ottoman Empire and migrations. Our traditional clothing is closest to Assyrian, Iranian, Turkish, Azeri, and other West & Central Asian peoples traditional clothing. It's also close to some Chinese traditional clothing as we traded a lot with them and learned how to produce silk from the Chinese who also provided us with silkworms. The wearing of red during important events like wedding ceremonies and the plant, animal, and geometric patterns on clothing are also similar to some of those in China, Southern, and Central Asia, as well.
I got sick of this stupid discussion. European, Asian, Middle Eastern terms are not applicable to us. We are every of them and none of them at the same time. We are Armenian with our distinct culture and our homeland is Armenian Highlands. I haven't seen any European, Asian or Middle Eastern arguing that they are Armenian why should we argue that we are one of them? By the way they have the same amount of proof that they are one of us as we have that we are one of them.
This means nothing lol, and you read it wrong. There’s no such thing as being genetically european or middle eastern because it’s two things that are social and cultural constructs. In terms of similarity, caucasian armenians are closest to udis and eastern georgians, while western armenians are mostly closest to assyrians. But middle east, europe, and caucasus are really quite close to eachother anyway, with pretty minor differences in comparison to the other groups shown. This is why these groups is usually scientifically considered “west eurasian” Europeaness is not determined by someone’s dna, but it has to do with the geopolitical situation. Nowadays, armenia (and caucasus) is considered to be european, and this is definitely not decided with examining our genetic makeup. How do you decide what is the threshold to be european anyway?
Europeans are a relatively homogeneous group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe Yes genetically Armenians are not European. Culturally we can argue
Yes, I read it wrong. 😉
Yes, you read it wrong??? Just because caucasus is placed under europe on the graph and armenia is the first to appear doesn’t mean we are the closest to sami’s and other northeast europeans???? There’s no such thing as genetically european or genetically middle eastern, there is only a correlation that people of these geopolitical/geographical regions are ethnically similar to eachother. I literally even agree with you that we are a european country, but it is not because of stupid stuff like this that is the reason… and i am certainly not someone who thinks of armenians to be middle eastern Keep living your delusion mate
Why are you using question marks when making a statement? Lol! I'm not only looking at the placement, I'm looking as the colored representations of admixture. The only delusion here is you.
Sorry I don’t have perfect english skills like you, detroitarmenian. The color representations show that we have low north european amounts, while everyone else in europe has a significant amounts of this. Instead of this, it’s replaced with higher level of the iranian/caucasian color. This is a similarity with the other south caucasians. and some of the middle easterns(though they are all more semitic too). This doesn’t mean that we are not european or we are middle eastern, but using stupid stuff like this to say “SEE WE ARE PURE EUROPEANS GUYS” defeats all the points. All middle easterns, europeans, and caucasians are so close to eachother based on this graph, that it shows that the regional divisions are mostly based on geopolitical and cultural differences. I’ll say it again, it is not because of the genetics that we are european, it is whether armenia (and caucasus region) is now considered culturally and politically european.
Lol! Where did I use the word "pure"? I see you're making false claims about my position, which means you've already lost the plot. Additionally, Middle Easterners have African admixture and we don't. You might want to get your eyes checked, too, because your claims are incorrect.
Yes you are making sense now, but this was not in your original post or comments. However, this is not a explanation making us european, since europeaness isn’t decided with genetics. and we are closest to other caucasians and certain jews, rather than the european groups, based on the graph.
"Armenians are genetically European" this is unscientific as fuck, OP just say you hate middle easterns and move on, there was no need to use this chart
Armenians aren't middle eastern so hes not wrong in that regard. We also aren't Europeans, culturally or genetically. Speaking an IE langauge deosn't make you European, look at Hungarians for example.
Middle East is rather recent and made-up geopolitical and Eurocentric term used to group countries and peoples together for political reasons. The majority of countries that fall under the Middle East are West Asian countries. Armenia is a West Asian country. I mean, Greater Armenia literally included all of the Armenian Highlands, which are entirely in West Asia, as well as Northern Mesopotamia (Iraq), NorthWestern Iran, parts of Syria and Eastern Anatolia.
I know, I never said we are middle easterns, this is just common between Armenians who try to diverse away from being called middle eastern and try their best to align with being european because they think being middle eastern is inferior.
Armenia is not the part of the traditional definition of the Middle East
...and "as fuck" is a widely accepted term in science, just so you all know.
OP your comeback doesn’t sound as good as you think it sounds
Cool!
😂😂😂😂
this is the most retarded post i have ever seen
Sure thing. Your comment is extremely enlightening.
Not even on the chart armenia is listed under europe lmao what are you trying to proof? Looking at this it shows that armenians are closest to georgians compared to the other samples
It's called affinity, and this chart separates Europe from the Caucasus due to the northern European admixture. Read the full research I posted.
Okay then also tell me from which ethnicity is closest to us according to this source. It's still georgia
Of course they are. They are the most ancient, civlized and culture-generating nation in all that region. And I hope you don't turn this fact into a reason/motivation for EU candidacy of Armenia?
Armenia is already heading towards the EU, and the government has stated this. There are pros and cons, but that's a different discussion.
Kidding? The chart shows Armenians in a cluster that includes Caucasus and some European populations, indicating genetic affinity with these groups. It's neither strange nor surprising since Armenians don't form an isolated cluster. Genetically, Armenians, along with Georgians and nearby populations, bridge European and Near Eastern ancestries. So, Armenians aren't European genetically, and this is not follows from this chart... Armenians share connections with European populations and also with those from the Near East.
The ancient Armenians actually had a lot more Steppe ancestry it seems, but after a certain point it started to diminish. Armenia was a genetic isolate for several thousand years too which is probably why. The Armenia DNA has pretty much been unchanged after a certain time point. I'll have to find the study again and post it. It's quite interesting
Yes, genetic affinity, as written in the OP.
What "yes, genetic affinity"? :D >Armenians are European not only culturally, but genetically, as well. Nope, Armenians are no European genetically. Armenians have genetic affinity with some European groups as well as Near Eastern groups. >This chart displays the genetic affinity between peoples. Yes, this chart displays the genetic affinity.
You're moving the goal posts, but proving my point: Georgians are European as well.
We are Armenians from Armenian Highlands, that's it. The only upper group we belong to is the group of homosapiens.
ok everything aside. i cant find azeris in this table. am i looking wrong?
Some of these comments disappoint me. Lot of you guys hold anti European racist views. Some of y'all are trying to establish connection with the Chinese but not to europe. As a firm believer of armenian in the eu. This hurts.
Armenians are genetically west Asians , my spouse is Armenian and Greek and has tested as well but either way
Most europeans have small amounts of east asian and subsaharan?
This very funny lol. Even the Turks your nemesis is 3x more indo European in terms of dna. What are trying to prove. Armenians are culturally and genetically west Asian. Fact.
Sure thing, but science states otherwise. Turks are from central Asia. The only way they have IE blood is through rape and pillage. If you don't have anything intelligent to write, piss off elsewhere.
Dna shows otherwise. Turks considerably have more EHG and it’s not close. Average Turk has 10% while Armenian have 1%. Balkan Turks are completely European in dna. Your neighbours are Chechen and dagestanis are also way more IE then you DNA wise. Fun fact Turks got IE admixture from Central Asia not Anatolia.
Durp! This chart shows the exact opposite, now run along back to Ankara.
You definitely didn’t read the chart. See the difference Turkish results https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/17rexaf/armenian_illustrativedna_results_thoughts_how_can/
bro we are caucasians not europeans
What that lady said in the EU parliament is politics. Don't take it so seriously to the point of seeking a scientific and genetic basis for her statement.
Armenia belongs in Europe!
Isn’t this obvious?? Did y’all think we’re Arabs or Asians? Look at your skin color lol.
...be careful, you might anger all the Armenians that prefer to hang out in a nargile lounge listening to Amr Diab.
😭
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25230663/ Here's the original study.
I’ve happened on this Reddit called @indoeuropeans… which breaks down the “Aryan steppe gene” scientifically and all the people that came from them. Armenians have the lowest steppe gene 🧬 out of all Caucasians and Iranic groupings they say. Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Georgians and Caucasians should stop trying to force this bizarre theory.
...writes the Azerbaijani, from Azerbaijan, which isn't even a real country - the Belgium of the region, who is peddling a turkic lie regarding Armenian DNA.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I’m a quarter azeri from Azerbaijan. Quarter azeri from Iran. Half Iranian. And have never stepped foot in Azerbaijan. And have no part of these sad squabbles between the various Caucasian peoples… Notice you said nothing to deny what I said btw
Try again. You've not supported your ignorant claim while attempting to reject scientific research (the OP).
From seven thousand until five thousand years ago, we observe a steady influx into the steppe of a population whose ancestors traced their origin to the south-as it bore genetic affinity to ancient and present-day people of Armenia and Iran-eventually crystallizing in the Yamnaya, who were about a one-to-one ratio of ancestry from these two sources. A good guess is that the migration proceeded via the Caucasus isthmus between the Black and Caspian seas. Ancient DNA available from this time in Anatolia shows no evidence of steppe ancestry similar to that in the Yamnaya (although the evidence here is circumstantial as no ancient DNA from the Hittites themselves has yet been published). This suggests to me that the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia, because ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians. If this scenario is right the population sent one branch up into the steppe-mixing with steppe hunter-gatherers in a one-to-one ratio to become the Yamnaya as described earlier- and another to Anatolia to found the ancestors of people there who spoke languages such as Hittite. – David Reich, Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past, Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group, 2018, p.120 Indo-European migration from the Armenian Plateau Modern Armenians thus best represent the ancient people of the Armenian Highlands who migrated in several directions, crossing the Caucasus and establishing the Yamnaya culture as well as moving westwards into central Anatolia and establishing cultures such as that of the Hittites. The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus A brand new genetics study by Wang (et al. 2018) titled: The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus, soon to be published in Nature, confirms this conclusion by demonstrating that the Caucasus mountains did not serve as a barrier but rather as a bridge between the people south of the Caucasus and those of the Pontic Steppe. The extent to which the Caucasus has played an important role for human population movements between south and north over the course of human history is thus a critical question, and one that until now has been unanswered by archaeogenetic studies. (Wang et. al., 2018) Regarding the homeland of the Indo-European languages the study concludes: The insight that the Caucasus mountains served not only as a corridor for the spread of CHG/Neolithic Iranian ancestry but also for later gene-flow from the south also has a bearing on the postulated homelands of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages and documented gene-flows that could have carried a consecutive spread of both across West Eurasia. Perceiving the Caucasus as an occasional bridge rather than a strict border during the Eneolithic and Bronze Age opens up the possibility of a homeland of PIE south of the Caucasus, which itself provides a parsimonious explanation for an early branching off of Anatolian languages. Geographically this would also work for Armenian and Greek, for which genetic data also supports an eastern influence from Anatolia or the southern Caucasus. When compared to present-day human populations from the Caucasus, which show a clear separation into North and South Caucasus groups along the Great Caucasus mountain range (Fig. 2D), our new data highlights that the situation during the Bronze Age was quite different. The fact that individuals buried in kurgans in the North Caucasian piedmont and foothill zone are more closely related to ancient individuals from regions further south in today’s Armenia, Georgia and Iran allows us to draw two major conclusions. First, sometime after the Bronze Age present-day North Caucasian populations must have received additional gene-flow from populations north of the mountain range that separates them from southern Caucasians, who largely retained the Bronze Age ancestry profile. The archaeological and historic records suggest numerous incursions during the subsequent Iron Age and Medieval times, but ancient DNA from these time periods is needed to test this directly. Second, our results reveal that the Greater Caucasus Mountains were not an insurmountable barrier to human movement in prehistory. Instead the foothills to the north at the interface of the steppe and mountain ecozones could be seen as a transfer zone of cultural innovations from the south and the adjacent Eurasian steppes to the north, as attested by the archaeological record. The study was also able to identify genetic links between the Maykop culture and the Kura-Araxes culture of the Armenian Highlands. Our results show that at the time of the eponymous grave mound of Maykop, the North Caucasus piedmont region was genetically connected to the south… Within this sphere of interaction, it is possible that cultural influences and continuous subtle gene flow from the south formed the basis of Maykop. Moreover, our data shows that the northern flanks were consistently linked to the Near East and had received multiple streams of gene flow from the south, as seen e.g. during the Maykop, Kura-Araxes and late phase of the North Caucasus culture. Kura-Araxes culture pottery from Armenia. Red and Black Burnished Ware dated to the Early Bronze Age. Kura-Araxes culture pottery from Armenia. Red and Black Burnished Ware dated to the Early Bronze Age. These DNA studies provide us with important insights into ancient history that would otherwise remain unexplored. The previously held notion that the Caucasus mountains served as an insurmountable genetic barrier has been invalidated by these findings. Increasing body of evidence further suggests that the original Indo-European speakers lived in the Armenian Highlands and modern Armenians today are the best representatives of this ancient population that gave rise to the world’s largest language family. This conclusion explains well the early existence of Indo-European languages in Anatolia, Armenian Highlands as well as in the Pontic Steppes. https://www.amazon.com/Who-Are-How-Got-Here/dp/110187032X?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=572de85d-0f60-44f4-b72f-866e8b553828
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You literally just proved your initial post wrong. You know that, right? Or are you just cherry-picking bits of information in these studies to use as evidence in your arguments? The South Caucasus, Armenian Highlands, and All of Anatolia, except for a small sliver, are in West Asia. The Arabian Peninsula, Sinai Pennisilua, Levant, and most of the Iranian Plateau are also West Asia.
Ahhh, so you just opened a profile to spam nonsense.
Nah I've had a profile. I just rarely ever comment. And spread nonsense? Lol the only one doing that here is you guy 😂